Peter:
You're listening to the Tracking Wisdom Podcast, exploring the universal
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truths that we see woven through culture,
consciousness, and the human experience.
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Ryan: Good morning everybody, and
welcome back to another episode
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of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.
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I'm Ryan,
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Peter: I'm Peter,
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Ryan: and today I wanted to talk about Dr.
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Anita Goel.
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So this is a physicist and MD
that we came across in yet another
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Essentia Foundation interview.
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Dr.
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Anita Goel, MD PhD, she's a physicist
and world renowned expert and pioneering
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in the emerging field of nano physics.
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And she is a physicist by training
and has been enamored or, inspired
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by, nano machinery, nanotechnology and
in particular she has a focus on DNA
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transcription and DNA polymerase as a
nano machine, and has some theories around
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how it might be interacting with quantum
mechanics and how using the biological
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system, the living systems, which in
are inherently open versus the classical
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physics and the work that's been done
historically on closed systems, how
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studying that may help us make strides in
closing the gap that Einstein, Schrodinger
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Penrose and the like have all acknowledged
that there's something missing,
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something not quite complete about our
understanding of quantum mechanics.
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And she has a, a theory that studying
this understanding, not only the
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nanotechnology itself, but essentially
if her theories are proven to be, sound,
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that we could use that as a quantum
sensor . That we could use biological
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systems and their interaction with
the quantum field quantum mechanics to
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detect those interactions and further
our understanding of quantum mechanics.
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Is that a fair way of
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Peter: Yeah, I think that the point
of the idea of the quantum detector is
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that the system, so the D.N.A./D.N.A.
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polymerase experimental system,
can be developed into, technology
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that can be used to create the
equivalent of a double slit experiment
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. Ryan: Right.
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Peter: So, as you were saying, you know,
she points out that, quantum theory is
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incomplete, and a way of reducing the
incompleteness is to turn away from
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inanimate closed systems and start
to look at living systems, because
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it'll just give us a different view.
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I mean, everything that we
know is from experimentalists.
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Well, I mean, not just
experimentalists theorists too, right?
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Mm-hmm.
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Ignoring living systems, because
living systems are too messy.
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And, because of her work in Nanosystems
and her ability to manipulate living
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systems and make them tractable
to experimentation, she's like,
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oh no, they're not too messy.
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And I think part of her.
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Thing too is that the apparent messiness,
may have to do with the intrinsic
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involvement of quantum effects.
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Ryan: Hmm.
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Peter: She says some clearer things
about quantum effects and living systems,
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which are really interesting, but, the
big goal, at least that they're talking
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about in this conversation, is to create
something like the double slit experiment.
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Something that clearly demonstrates the
properties of quantum physics, but using a
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completely new kind of experimental setup.
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And it's not to duplicate the, mm-hmm.
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Double slit, but an experiment that
has the impact of the double split
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experiment and that it's a very
clear demonstration of, well the
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double split experiment demonstrates
the kind of dual nature of light as
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wave and particle at the same time.
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The double slit experiment
demonstrates ensemble behavior.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: And so, she's looking for a kind
of experiment to do in a biological
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system, specifically her nanotech
setup with DNA and DNA polymerase,
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and she says that the roadmap is
there, needs a lot more resource to
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refine the resolution of the system,
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Ryan: mm-hmm,
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Peter: in order to set up the
correct kind of experiment.
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Ryan: Yeah.
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Peter: And then goes far field
later on into her own kind
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of intuitive understanding
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of the nature of, I guess
reality and consciousness.
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Ryan: Yeah.
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Peter: To some extent.
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Ryan: Yeah.
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And one thing that I did find interesting
is how, number one, she presented
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the idealist paradigm, but, as we had
mentioned in previous episodes, it
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seems that the scientists that we've
come in contact with that are on the
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idealist side of the conversation,
all appear to have had a precipitating
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experiential event, that then led
them to use their scientific skills
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and knowledge to pursue this avenue.
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And she, from all accounts that we can
tell, is the first one that I can recall
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that came to this purely scientifically.
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Peter: Intellectually.
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Ryan: Intellectually and theoretically,
that we keep bumping up against walls with
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the classical approach and the materialist
paradigm, specifically around the quantum
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measurement problem and the hard problem
of consciousness that , by flipping
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that on its head and starting with the
consciousness first paradigm, these
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things become more readily answerable.
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But she's very adamant
about using rigorous.
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Yeah.
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scientific approach and data.
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And she has a very high
bar for her research.
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She was saying she has high hopes for it,
but she's also her highest critic where
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she's, very, stringent on making sure that
the output of this research is rigorous.
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And that, it also encompasses
and answers all the classical
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things that we already know.
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That all has to be part of what comes
out of the experiment and the theory.
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She's particularly interested
in the medicine side of things.
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We've all benefited from, utility of
quantum mechanics with the smartphones
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and things like that, quantum computing.
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Peter: In terms of healthcare,
CAT scans, MRIs, x-rays.
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Ryan: Sure.
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Right.
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Peter: Those are, yeah.
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Ryan: And, she made a very specific
comment that medicine is essentially
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still stuck in the biochemical.
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Peter: So yeah, I mean it's this
kind of roadblock of knowledge
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or dead end that we've hit just
I think in knowledge in general.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: There's a lot of discussion
about how, as you said, the founders of
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quantum mechanics were very frustrated
with the incompleteness of the theory.
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Which is what Schrodinger's cat is,
is a satirizing and exaggeration
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of the problems of the theory,
the shortcoming of the theory.
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And that, it's not just physics
that hit that roadblock.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: Like all the other disciplines,
like medicine is limited because
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essentially medicine is completely
dependent on chemistry and physics.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: You know, she was a physician
who decided to become a physicist.
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And her vision is that by breaking
through this roadblock in physics,
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we can open huge horizons in, in
medicine, healthcare, and, and beyond.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: Because of course, every time
you crack the limitations of physics,
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you open up incredible new technologies.
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So yeah, she's a very, I
think, what's the word?
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Free thinker?
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Like visionary.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: Very visionary, but, also very,
very committed to grounding herself.
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And she's like, I have to play like a
child and dream big and then constrain
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myself to what can we measure.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: And how can I figure
out how to measure it?
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And she just goes back and forth
between these, these states.
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Which kind of reminds me of Hoffman.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: Talking about meditating,
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Ryan: yeah,
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Peter: and then doing science.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: Right?
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And swinging between those states.
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So you already mentioned,
open versus closed systems.
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Ryan: Yeah.
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Peter: Physical experimental systems
being inanimate and closed and being
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at or near equilibrium, as she says.
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And then living systems are open systems
that are, never very near equilibrium.
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They're constantly building.
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Ryan: Yeah.
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Peter: She uses the term negentropic,
which I just thought was great.
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And she talks about current physics and
future physics, current physics being
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matter and energy and future physics
adding information into the equation,
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that's her vision is to break through.
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And her intention is to refine this
nanotech biological system that she works
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with, to sufficient resolution to perform
this experiment; we don't know what it
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would be, that will crack the barrier
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Ryan: mm-hmm
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Peter: of quantum physics.
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Ryan: So she, specifically about the
DNA polymerase, is enamored by both
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the energy efficiency of the molecule,
and its processing volume and speed.
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She speaks to how the DNA polymerase
as it's transcribing and building
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does a hundred billion computational
steps per 10 milliseconds.
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And will be able to error correct
itself when there's mutations.
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She does talk a little bit about whether
those mutations are random versus
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environmental or quantum, and this is
part of where she's going with this is
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to determine if there is a consequential
quantum and environmental element , that's
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where information comes in, versus
something that's Darwinian and is random.
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Peter: So you were starting to say
that she's interested in the polymerase
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as a machine, as an nano machine.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: And she suspects that the way
DNA polymerase works, may be exploiting
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quantum effects, in a non-trivial
way, for function and efficiency.
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So you named the function of calculate
a hundred billion steps per base pair.
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So each time the polymerase reads a
base of DNA, it needs to perform a
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hundred billion computational steps
in order to find the correct base to
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attach to the base that it wants to
connect, to build the matching strand.
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But the other piece of it is that,
the polymerase is also acting as a
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molecular motor, because it's moving
mechanically along the DNA strand.
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And as a molecular motor, it's 99.9%
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efficient.
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And she says that, compared to 20 to
40% for an internal combustion engine.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: That these two extraordinary
features of the nano machine suggest to
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her that something strange is going on,
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Ryan: right,
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Peter: that's beyond the
purview of just regular physics.
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And so she suspects that there are quantum
effects happening, or that the polymerase
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is exploiting quantum effects in some
ways, to give itself these superpowers.
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Ryan: And I think that those are
both indicators, and potential uses.
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Right?
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If we understand better how
it manages to achieve a 99.9%
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energy efficiency, that that could help
us in the material world to achieve
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better efficiencies in energy usage.
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And then she did say specifically,
the non-trivial quantum effects is the
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question that starts the whole thing.
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The effects of the quantum
collapse, and the coherence,
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historically has been dismissed as
trivial to the biological system.
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Her first step in pursuing this
theory is to determine does the
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collapse happen before the end of
the computational phase, or after.
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So if it extends long enough, then
we can interpret that there is a
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potential for non-trivial impact of
quantum mechanics, versus if it happens
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so fast that it would be trivial.
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Peter: So does quantum ness
or superposition exist in this
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system, of DNA and polymerase,
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Ryan: long enough
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Peter: long enough to be relevant
to, basically for the time
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needed to read a base pair,
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Ryan: right.
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Peter: Which, as you
said, is 10 milliseconds.
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So she has a specific timeframe for
which she needs to demonstrate the
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sustained coherence of a quantum state.
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Ryan: Yes.
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Peter: I get that there's a thing
called superposition, which means
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you are two things at the same time.
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If you're a cat, you're alive and dead
at the same time, if you're a photon,
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you're a wave and a particle at the
same time, and then at some point
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that superposition collapses or that
quantum coherence has a decoherence.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: And when that happens, now you've
gone from an indeterminate state of
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being both things to the determinate
state of being a single thing.
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Ryan: Yeah.
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Peter: Okay, now here's the question.
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Is the coherence very short or very
long ? Because, I read somewhere that
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the reason that we can see photons
collapse is because there are so many
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of them that the odds of some collapsing
at any given time are, are high.
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But that the the timeframe of
decoherence is extremely long.
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Ryan: Mm.
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Peter: Like thousands
or millions of years.
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And the, the only reason that we
see the decoherence is because
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of these huge numbers of events
that we're we're considering.
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On the other hand, I thought I
understood that superposition only
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happens for infinitesimally small
amounts of time before collapse.
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And then Penrose says it's all about,
okay, now we're in the measurement
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problem because we're saying, oh, it's
not about the time, it's about whether
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there's an observer or not, because the
observer is what creates the collapse.
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And Penrose says, no, it's not
about an observer, that's garbage,
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gravity is what creates the collapse.
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And i'm not even sure how
that happens, because does,
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Ryan: well I think he was, he was
talking about how Mass had impact on the
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Peter: so the mass of the thing
allows you to calculate how
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long the coherence will be.
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Ryan: That's what he said.
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Peter: Right.
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Ryan: Yeah.
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Peter: So is he saying it's
very short because photons
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Ryan: are small.
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Peter: Are small so they have very low
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Ryan: or is it the other way around?
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Peter: Gravitational effects, so
therefore they immediately collapse.
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Ryan: Think it's the other way
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Peter: so if you're a planet
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Ryan: saying if, if it's
big, it collapses quickly,
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Peter: immediately, right?
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If you're a planet, you're just a
planet, you're not like two kinds
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of planet, you're not, you're not
dead and alive at the same time.
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But if you're a tiny
photon, you maintain your
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Ryan: quantum state for
a long period of time,
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Peter: for a long period of time.
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Ryan: I think that's what he was saying.
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Peter: Right, so what she's saying
is that the quantum state of the
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DNA polymerase, DNA and polymerase
complex has to be long enough, has
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to be at least 10 milliseconds.
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If she can demonstrate that, then
she knows, okay, that's a relevant
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Ryan: right
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Peter: timeframe.
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For what we're looking at.
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So we can use this for
a quantum experiment,
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Ryan: it at least says that there's.
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Potential for meaningful impact.
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Peter: Meaningful interaction.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: Because if it was shorter
than that, then there's no way the
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quantum effect could be impacting
the reading of the base pair.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: She cites some other examples
where, so this is leading edge technology,
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experimentalism, or whatever, that
it's not, it's very controversial.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: Still, but there are
couple of studies suggesting,
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the presence of non-trivial
quantum effects in living systems.
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And she says there's some studies in
bird navigation, I believe it's bird
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navigation, and in photosynthesis,
which we haven't looked up with this.
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But she does indicate that,
she's not the only one looking at
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quantum effects in living systems.
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But it, it sounds like she's
the one who's most committed to
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creating the definitive experiment.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: And she feels like she has
a system that she's working with
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that she can continue to refine
in order to accomplish that.
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Ryan: Right, she has the roadmap.
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She seems to understand what
needs to happen, but that the
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tools and measurements, still
need resolution improvement in
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order to get to what she needs.
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And she cited resource as a main
component of that of course.
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And so she didn't talk
specifically about consciousness,
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except really at two places.
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At the beginning when she was
describing the idealist paradigm, and
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suggesting consciousness first and
everything else comes out of that.
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But then at the end, she went through
her theory and what her intent for her
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experiments and pursuit is, and then
started to describe what she was calling
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the fifth industrial revolution driven
around AI, which is obviously continuing
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to develop, got into taking off her
scientific hat and putting on her humanity
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hat that, as we start to grapple with will
the electronic systems become conscious,
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what is the definition of consciousness?
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The pursuit of understanding consciousness
has been there for a long time.
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It's the hard question that periodically
I think we poke at, but hasn't had
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the urgency, until now, where we have
now a compelling reason to have to,
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really understand and define what is
consciousness, what defines consciousness.
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And beyond that, if we take
the materialist paradigm to its
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natural conclusion, if fact, the
machines take over human activity,
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where is the purpose, right?
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What, where do we find the
value and purpose in life?
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And that the materialist paradigm
sort of shuts it down is basically
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Peter: right
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Ryan: being end.
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Peter: Right.
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And we heard this from Faggin as well.
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Ryan: Yeah.
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Peter: That if you adhere to the materials
paradigm, which is what is creating AI,
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Ryan: right,
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Peter: you maintain this mechanistic
perspective until the mechanisms
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exceed the capabilities of humans.
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And now the mechanisms have
more value than humans.
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And now humanity has destroyed itself
because it's created machines that
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have more value than their creators.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: And so, that fact of obvious
conclusion, compels us to shift
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our understanding of consciousness.
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And not to just change your minds,
but to really understand, to really
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answer the question as, you're saying.
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So there's this very dystopian, gloomy
message there, but at the same time, the
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converse is, and this is also I think
something that's we've heard consistently
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from people exploring these kinds of
ideas, that freeing ourselves from the
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materialist paradigm will open infinite
horizons, and usher in a golden age of
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combined spiritualism and technology.
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Ryan: Yeah.
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Peter: And that's something that she
talks pretty strongly about is, we're
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really past the point where we can
talk about oh, it's just technology,
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or, oh, it's just spiritualism.
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She points out that there's thousands of
years of, what I'm going call non-material
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technology, spiritual cultures and systems
and, and disciplines, that are focused
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on the non-material aspect of reality.
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But that they generally come at
the expense of material progress.
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And I think this is maybe
a trivial illustration?
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I don't know if it's a good illustration.
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But the apparent material dominance
of the West over the East, where
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these spiritual traditions are
stronger and more developed.
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And she also mentions indigenous peoples.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: So there's another example
of like, yeah, I think you can point
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to pretty poor material success in
those cultures, even though there
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may be exceptional spiritual success.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: And that we shouldn't
be having either or.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: You know, we shouldn't be
materially supreme and wealthy and have
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amazing technology, and chronically
depressed and anxious and troubled,
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Ryan: right,
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Peter: and sleepless.
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And that it's now is the time to
understand the relationship of
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the material and the non-material.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: And I, I was gonna say exploit,
which is not the right term…
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leverage the understanding of both,
to create this abundance and harmony.
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Ryan: Yeah, I mean that, that has
been a consistent message amongst, I
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don't know if it's been explicit with
all the thinkers we've been exploring
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here, but definitely I know this one,
and I think others have described it
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as well, which is, the the historical
mystical philosophy has been, there's
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an interconnectedness with all things.
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And the historical materialist perspective
has been compartmentalizing everything.
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And I think it sounds like the idealist
philosophy has an expected outcome that,
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if proven, the widespread awareness and
understanding of our interconnectedness
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with each other, and the planet, and
all things will lead to better ethics,
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geopolitical and business practices, that
by and large society will be constructive.
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Peter: Yeah.
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I mean, it will transform
our concept of values,
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Ryan: right?
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Peter: Values and value.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: I think the, the current Western
industrial idea is that more is better.
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That, I can and have, more than you.
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And if I have more than you,
then I am more valuable than you.
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I think the rise of dystopian fiction
is kind of an exploration of that.
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You know, I, because I think
dystopian fiction is all about
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the devaluation of the human.
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Ryan: Yeah.
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Peter: And tends to be about the
accumulation of power amongst the few.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: And the division of haves and
have-nots and, you know, some few people
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at the top on the island are in the sky
or on the special planet or whatever.
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And the protagonists being
the undervalued, struggling
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people without resource.
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Um, and that with a real understanding of
both the nature of consciousness and the
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nature of reality, which will go together.
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Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: If we understand the nature
of consciousness, then we will
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understand the nature of reality.
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And once we have that understanding,
this idea of have and have
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not won't make any sense.
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And I think when that shift
happens, where it becomes
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viewed as scientifically proven.
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Ryan: Right?
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Peter: Right.
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:
It, it has the imprimatur of, oh,
the scientists have shown this.
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:
Then human culture will be able
to shift back to this harmonious,
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:
kind of back to the garden, really.
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:
Right?
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:
So going way back to Joseph
Campbell and the garden, we lost
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:
the garden because of an idea.
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:
Ryan: Yeah.
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Peter: Or knowledge.
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:
But I mean, basically
it's a way of thinking.
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:
Ryan: Yeah.
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:
Peter: That I think it's pretty
trivial to hypothesize that that's
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:
talking about materialist paradigm.
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:
Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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:
Peter: Once you start thinking
that I know I need clothes.
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:
Clothes are important.
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:
Everything to get clothes and,
you know, everything I do.
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:
And God's not important.
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:
Ryan: Mm-hmm.
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Peter: It's the fact that
I'm naked, that's important.
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:
That now you've lost, you've lost
security, you've lost happiness.
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:
And the consistent message from these
thinkers that we're trying to listen
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:
to and read is that there's a very real
possibility that, by pursuing science
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:
in the right way, we can actually bring
humanity from the brink of dystopia, to
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:
this golden age, return to to harmony.
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:
Which is a very compelling idea,
a very compelling idea being put
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forward by people who seem not to
be crackpots on the street corner.
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Ryan: Right.
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Peter: I mean, people are
seriously pursuing this.
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:
Ryan: Yeah.
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:
Using the scientific method.
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:
Peter: Mm-hmm.
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:
Ryan: Well, I found this speaker quite
interesting to listen to, and I was
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:
inspired that there is a place in the
institution of science to come to this
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:
intellectually and scientifically.
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:
Not just from people who have had
experiences, but that there's a growing
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:
understanding that the materialist
paradigm is limiting us, and it's
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:
time to start expanding our concept
and considering an alternate view
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:
of how this all comes together.
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:
I would definitely encourage
everybody to watch the interview.
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:
I found it interesting, even if
you're not super scientifically
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:
inclined, it was interesting.
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:
So we'll link that and
the Essentia Foundation.
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:
There's other links to nanobiosym.com,
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:
that is Dr.
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Goel's company, and also the link to her
plenary discussion, so you could see both
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:
the interview and her plenary presentation
at the symposium; and if you watch
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:
it, let us know what you think of it.
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Till next time, talk to you later.
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:
Peter: Great.
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:
Thanks.
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:
Bye.
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:
Thank you for listening to
the Tracking Wisdom podcast.
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:
Join us next time as we
continue the discussion.
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:
Don't forget to follow us on
Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube,
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:
and visit www.eth-studio.com
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for more information and content
