Episode Summary: this episode is a segment from a conversation with Stewart Watkins and Max Van Someren on sustainability and a rare earth minerals mining project in Western Australia  

Rare earth minerals play a crucial role in the energy transition, as they are used in various applications like electric vehicles and wind turbines. However, the mining of these minerals has had a poor environmental record.

To understand how an Australian mining project is improving this issue, we had a conversation with Stewart Watkins and Max Van Someren, where we discussed the broader context of the Nolans project in the energy transition.

Listen to the full episode

About the Nolans project

A presentation by Net Zero Perth on the Nolans Project

For more information on the project and to order your copy of the Carbon Almanac, visit thecarbonalmanac.org

Want to join in the conversation?

Visit thecarbonalmanac.org/podcasts and send us a voice message on this episode or any other climate-related ideas and perspectives.

Don’t Take Our Word For It, Look It Up!

You can find out more on page 167, 172, 242, 252 and 253 of the Carbon Almanac and on the website you can tap the footnotes link and type in 100, 092, 124, 120 and 112 

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Olabanji is from Lagos Nigeria, he’s a Creative Director and visual designer that helps brands gain clarity, deliver meaningful experiences and build tribes through Design & Strategy. He founded Jorney - a community designed to help people stay productive, accountable, and do their best work.

Leekei is a fashion business founder, a business coach, an international development expert and podcaster from Paris, France.  

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The CarbonSessions Podcast is produced and edited by Leekei Tang, Steve Heatherington and Rob Slater.

Yeah, sure.

2

Um, I will, I'll jump in at that point.

3

Leaky, um, and that will be a nice

way to explain how I found out

4

what rare elsewhere and how they

fit into the energy transition.

5

Um, the net there Network is a,

a group here in Perth, in Western

6

Australia, which was founded by me and

a couple of others, about two years.

7

Because we were reading about the

importance of climate change and

8

the potential changes that were

going to be required in society and

9

within the economy, but we weren't

really sure how as individuals

10

we could get involved to do more.

11

We knew that there were small scale

things that we could do, like saving

12

energy around our own homes, but we

didn't feel like that was enough.

13

We wanted to use our professional

skills to have more impact.

14

Um, and I didn't know who

to talk to about that.

15

So a small group of us got together and we

decided to form a group which would help

16

each other to identify opportunities for,

get involved, to get involved and do more.

17

Um, that led to us meeting regularly,

uh, hearing from inspiring speakers who

18

had made that transition themselves.

19

And ultimately for me, it led me to

move from the job which I was in,

20

which was designing ship, uh, which was

pretty interesting, but not directly

21

related to decarbonization, to working

with a large engineering company, kbr

22

r helping companies like Aira, who

will hear from in a minute, uh, with

23

their decarbonization strategies.

24

Um, And, um, the net network has

been fantastic for connecting

25

to all sorts of people.

26

Have helped me understand what

that, what, what the options are

27

for industry and society as a whole.

28

Pretty decarbonize.

29

So you came to the product without

milli anything about Ra Eber almost.

30

It was, there was definitely

a learning curve for me.

31

That's right.

32

Yeah.

33

So, um, I, I'm an engineer by

background and I bought experience

34

in decarbonization technologies.

35

Uh, but uh, I didn't understand

the rare Earth domain and, and I'd

36

heard about them I think like most

of us have in, in a passing sense.

37

But I wasn't really sure exactly what

role they played in the energy transition.

38

Uh, which is I think something that

few who've got a much longer background

39

than me in Rare Earth can probably

describe to you in much more detail.

40

Sure.

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Max.

42

You know, and, and I think the, the,

the funny thing about this is most

43

people dunno what rare earths are.

44

They're, they're those things that sit

down at the bottom of the periodic table.

45

Just above uranium and

thorium, those fun ones.

46

Um, and, and nobody covers them in high

school chemistry, you know, and, and,

47

and the funny part about rare earths

is they're not actually that rare.

48

Um mm-hmm.

49

They're rare in as much as they

don't often come in a lot of

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concentration in the earth, but

they're, they're kind of all around us.

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They're all over the place.

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Um, now rare earths are also not used

all that much, but where they are used,

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they are adding a massive, massive value.

54

Um, the ones that, that, uh, you

know, Aira, the company that I work

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for and joined about five years

ago, is really interested in, uh,

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Emon, neodymium, and Permium, and

yeah, everybody stumbles over it.

57

So for that, we call it N D P R because

those ones are the ones that go into

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ultra high strength permanent magnets.

59

We've all sort of played around with,

um, you know, those really strong

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little magnets that stick like, uh,

like you can't believe, and then there

61

doesn't seem to be anything to them.

62

Well, those are rare earth magnets, and

it's the rare earths that go in there that

63

do all that funky physics stuff and make

a, a, a magnet that is so, so super strong

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that, that you, you wouldn't believe them.

65

Wow.

66

Does that make sense?

67

So it does make sense.

68

Um, you say it's not that rare, but,

so why do we call it rare Earth then?

69

Oh, I'm gonna blame

some old chemistry guy.

70

You know?

71

Uh, they're also known as the amides,

if you wanna, if you wanna get all

72

chemical, but, um, yeah, they're,

they're called rare earths and,

73

and it's a lot easier to explain.

74

I guess they're rare around

the earth in as much as.

75

At the moment, it something like

about 85% of the rare earth produced

76

in this world are refined, mined, and

refined under the control of China.

77

Um, and, and that makes

it a very interesting

78

geopolitical situation as well.

79

Mm-hmm.

80

The, the other explanation that

I had heard about why they were

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colloquially called rare earths

originally, it's because although

82

there's a lot of them in the aircraft,

they're challenging to extract.

83

And so for a long time it was, it was,

it was difficult to create a lot of prof,

84

rare earth metal, which made them rare.

85

Mm-hmm.

86

I'll, I'll take that one Max.

87

Um, and you there, Stuart, you touched

upon, uh, the incredible properties

88

of Rare Earth, very, very strong

magnet Earlier, uh, you guys were

89

talking about how rare earth are

involved in, in all sorts of end use

90

uses within the energy transition.

91

Things like electric

vehicles, for example.

92

Maybe Stuart, you could just

explain how strong magnet.

93

Make things like electric

vehicles a better product.

94

Yeah, sure.

95

Um, you know, and, and, and the

reason why, uh, get digging into

96

that, you know, when, when you have

an electric motor, basically you

97

have two rotating, or one stationary

and one rotating magnetic field.

98

So you know that that's

how these things work.

99

We'll pick the engineering

nerd over here in this corner.

100

So when, when you, when you have a

motor and, and particularly an electric

101

vehicle or a, or a wind turbine or, or

something like that, really what, what

102

you're trying try, kind of looking for

is the lightest weight and the lowest en

103

energy consumption to get you from A to B.

104

It's like in your petrol car, you, you,

you wanna be able to drive around using

105

the least amount of petrol in electric

vehicle and I've got one on order.

106

Um, you know, you want to be able to drive

around plugging it in the least amount

107

and use the least amount of electrons.

108

So if you've got one of those

magnetic fields, um, being generated

109

from a permanent magnet, Rather

than from an electromagnet, then

110

you are using less energy to get

the wheels turning if you like.

111

Now, um, the, the research that we did

here when we were doing some marketing

112

work was that a rare earth permanent

magnet motor is about 15% more efficient

113

than an induction motor where you've

got two, two electromagnet coils.

114

Um, so in that respect, imagine

you've got a 15% more efficient,

115

fuel efficient vehicle.

116

So that's why they're super important.

117

And then when you think about, say, a

wind turbine, you know, we've got only a

118

certain amount of wind blowing past it.

119

So if you've got 15% more, um, efficiency

in your generation, you get 15% more

120

bang for your buck for the capital

cost of putting up a wind turbine.

121

Now, I guarantee you guys have

actually got a rare earth magnet

122

motor at home right now, or if you

haven't, a lot of, a lot of people

123

who listen to this will have.

124

Anybody got a brushless cordless

drill, that's what they sell 'em as.

125

Now they've got a permanent magnet motor

in it that will generally use rare Earth.

126

So, so they are kind of all around

us, but with the energy transition

127

that's going on, the demand for rare

earths has really jumped, jumped

128

through the roof in recent days.

129

Add to that, the whole covid situation and

wanting to have diversification of supply

130

chains outside of one particular country

and, and all of a sudden the, the world

131

is sort of thinking critical minerals.

132

We've all heard about lithium and

graphite and so on and so forth, but

133

they're starting to think about rare

earths in reality and, and saying,

134

we need different sources of these to

actually achieve the goals that we have

135

for decarbonizing our, our society.

136

It, it's interesting, Stuart,

that you mentioned the supply

137

chain for railroad there.

138

I was reminded of the other day when

I was in Bunnings, which is the chain

139

of hardware doors here in Australia.

140

And I could these, some neodinium

magnets, which were on sale, I think

141

they were for hanging pictures.

142

So just these tiny magnets, which you

stick to the back of a picture frame.

143

And because of the work that I'm doing

with Afuera, it immediately made me

144

think of where that magnet has come from.

145

So where the, where the original iron or,

oh, sorry, original, um, nd or would've

146

come from where it would've been processed

probably in China, and then it had

147

made its way all the way to Australia.

148

Wow.

149

There's a lot of science going

around and I'm enjoying it.

150

Um, but so what you're saying is that

rare earth makes, um, our use of energy

151

more efficient when, when it comes to

electric motors, which you need for an

152

electric vehicle or a wind turbine, those

rare earth permanent magnet that go into

153

those, um, motors are more efficient.

154

I mean, rare earths are used

in a lot of other things.

155

I mean, yo know, uh, we other rare

earths, those are neodymium and

156

Presidium, other rare earths like, um,

serum and lanum are used and they're

157

a lot more abundant than N D P R.

158

They're used in catalysts

for, um, refining.

159

Um, if you do have a petrol car,

you stinky heathen, you know, really

160

the, the catalyst that converts,

uh, in the, um, in, in the catalytic

161

converter would have lan in a, in it.

162

So rare earths are all around us, if

you like, they're the 11, part of the

163

11, her special herbs and spices that

go into making ordinary everyday things.

164

Amazing.

165

. So it's not just rare,

it's like rare earth.

166

There's like a lot of them.

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It's not just one specific

thing we're talking about.

168

Yeah.

169

There, there's, there's about, oh, and

my, this is where I find the, the chemical

170

engineer doesn't have much chemistry.

171

I think there's about 11 rare

earths that are 11 elements that

172

are classified as rare earths.

173

, it's also probably important to

differentiate between critical

174

minerals and rare earth, cuz

they're two similar founding things.

175

But actually rare earth is a

subset of critical minerals.

176

Mm-hmm.

177

Um, criticality, uh, when we talk

about critical minerals, is really

178

referring to the importance of

these whole range of different

179

minerals in the energy transition.

180

Uh, and the fact that supply for

a lot of them is gonna have to

181

increase in scale dramatically.

182

Um, but they're not interchangeable terms.

183

Rare earth is one subset of

a larger, larger definition.

184

Wow.

185

And that includes things

like copper, for example.

186

So, so traditional metal, but

which we're gonna need a lot more

187

of as we electrify everything.

188

Hmm.

189

I've read somewhere.

190

Um, they, , we have found, um, some

rare earth in Sweden, but , it will

191

take some time, it will take probably

it's 15 years for, the rare herbs

192

from Sweden to be used in our, , to

get into our, phones or electrical.

193

So, and in 15 years we'll even do it.

194

, we would need this kind of

a cnce in our, um, vein.

195

So why does it take so long?

196

Look, and, and I think, I think Max

touched on it earlier, you know, it,

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it really comes down to the processing.

198

Um, the, the mining of

these things is fairly easy.

199

I mean, you know, dig it up as a whole.

200

It's, it's the same as mining anything.

201

But the processing, because what

you're trying to do is take something

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that's one or 2% of all rare earths.

203

So of our OR body, for example, at

Nolan's, um, you know, we're, our

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head grade is, is around that sort

of, you know, about 0.7, 0.8% N D P R.

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And we take that 0.7 or 0.8%.

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We refine that to 99.9% N D P R.

207

So, you know, there, there's a massive

amount of processing that goes on

208

and, and these things are really, um,

there, there's a, uh, there's a lot

209

of chemistry that goes into it to both

get it into a form that you can play

210

with it, get it in solution, purify

it, separate it from those, from the

211

other rare earths as well at the end.

212

So it's the processing

that takes the time.

213

And, and to give you some perspective,

you know, Nolans was discovered.

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That's the project that I'm running,

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You know, they're out

there looking for uranium.

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Um, luckily the, the, the, the deposit

was largely outcropping, so it was,

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uh, expressing through the surface.

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And so a plane with a, a radiometer,

um, very sensitive radiometer flew

219

over the top of it and it went spining.

220

There you go.

221

And so they went and looked at the

rocks and went, oh, there's not enough

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uranium there to be, uh, interesting.

223

But, uh, another geologist came

along and went, ah, there's

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some rare earths in that.

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And, but it took us, we've been going

for, uh, you know, twen 20 plus years to

226

work out and crack the Rosetta stone of

how to process this particular or body

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and how much it is there and where it

is, and all those fun, other fun things

228

you do in mining, um, to actually work

out how to get the rare earth out of it

229

in a, in a, in a cost effective manner.

230

Wow.

231

Reminds me of Black Panther,

you know, looking for vibranium.

232

Oh, look, no, this stuff is

way more fun than vibranium.

233

And you know, I, you, you, you do

have the advantage of seeing me.

234

You can imagine me in a, in

a, in a tight leather suit.

235

Oh, there's a reason I'm an engineer.

236

Yes.

237

Yeah.

238

Better move the conversation

more quickly from that.

239

I, I think that, go ahead.

240

Sorry.

241

No, I was just gonna say, if this is

more interesting than vibranium, then

242

this just got like 1000% more core.

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