Bicarbonate, or bicarb, has emerged as a significant subject of discourse within the realm of endurance events, particularly due to its capacity to mitigate the effects of lactic acid accumulation during high-intensity exercise. In this episode, we, Dr. Leo Kormanik, Jared Bugaj, and Zach Goulet, delve into the multifaceted applications of bicarbonate supplementation, examining its potential benefits for athletes engaged in various endurance disciplines, such as the 1500, mile, 5K and 10K races as well as the half marathon, marathon and tour de France. We explore the physiological mechanisms by which bicarbonate acts as a buffering agent, thus enhancing performance by delaying fatigue. Furthermore, we scrutinize the practical considerations regarding dosage and timing, as well as the potential gastrointestinal distress associated with its use. Our discussion strives to provide clarity on whether bicarb supplementation is a prudent strategy for athletes seeking to optimize their performance and recovery in endurance events.

Takeaways:

• Bicarbonate serves as a crucial buffer, neutralizing lactic acid during high-intensity exercise events.
• The optimal performance window for bicarbonate supplementation appears to be within five to seven minutes of exertion.
• Studies suggest that endurance athletes can experience performance gains of two to three percent with proper bicarbonate dosing.
• Incorporating bicarbonate into training may enhance recovery and performance, but proper dosage and timing are essential.

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Foreign.

I know.

Foster.

Fossil fuel.

Foster fuel, yeah.

Thank you, Sarah Foster, for the fuel.

Oh, we were recording.

You went right into that.

All right.

Yeah.

This is a pre or no, a post workout snack.

I was really hungry during my last massage and Foster fuel came in the clutch because we sell it upstairs in our lobby.

So good.

So good.

Coffee's really hot.

All right.

Yo, yo, everybody.

Here is a.

Another episode of the Mind Body marathon and thank you for joining us.

This is.

We're back in studio.

Man, it's been a.

Feels like it's been a long time.

Since it's so cozy down here.

It is, dude.

We get some, we get some people opening up down here and just.

This is, this is a session.

Yeah.

On the show today, we're, we're going to talk about bicarb, kind of a trendy thing.

So we're, we're.

As Jared said, the people have.

The people have answered.

The people have spoken.

The people have spoken.

And they want bicarb.

They do.

So we're going to give our 2 cents on bicarb.

We got old Zach Galaya knows very little about bicarb.

But I have.

But I'm very curious.

Curious guy.

Yeah, curious guy in the episode.

And, and Jared, what's your last name again?

Boogay.

That's what they call me.

Boo booed on Instagram.

But yeah.

This is a interesting topic.

I think people.

It's obviously trendy.

I think once Morton actually came out with an official product of it.

Genius on their part because people were just taking old arm and hammer.

Yeah.

Back in the day.

What is bicarb?

Yeah, what is it?

So let's get down to basics.

If you didn't get that that's a basic joke about.

Because it's a basic alkaline.

Yeah.

Dorks.

Well, okay, so lactic acid is an acid and bicarb is basic.

So going back to high school chemistry.

Yeah.

So in, in your blood you have a, what they call the buffer zone, the buffer system that when that lactate, lactate, lactic acid is produced immediately to kind of keep the ph of the, the blood neutral.

The bicarbonate kind of sops up the hydrogen ions.

So the acidic portion of the lactate.

So lactic acid know he's getting real.

Building eye on us.

Holy smokes.

Yeah.

So that, that's called acidosis.

So metabolic acidosis.

The metabolism of the body when we're metabolizing our carbohydrates and especially during high intensity exercise, you know, that's when we produce the most lactate you do produce it at, at lower intensities and even at rest.

But um, this conversation is really important for that two to five minute window.

I think even up to seven minutes.

They say that, that that window is the optimal, optimal window of, of bicarb.

You mean like in terms of distance of performance?

Right, right.

So like if your event is covering that.

But what about like, you know, I mean obviously we know like Grant Fisher used it for a lot of his, you know, 5k world record or whatever and that was like 12ish minutes.

So 12 and a half minutes.

So it's like obviously.

I mean I feel like if you.

Can get away with it for, you know, probably like seven, eight minutes of that, we're not, you know, he's not really tapping into that system and needing it.

But then obviously he has it there for the, for the kick per se.

And so which is why Morton sort of thought about it from a global perspective in running because obviously at the end of each race you're going to have some lactate.

Yeah.

Do you think 10k runners are taking it?

Definitely, yeah.

Just to squeeze out that little window of time, more time that they have.

Just for that kick, you know.

Yeah.

But one question is like, is it too stressful in the system if you don't need it?

I think you could use it during your training, like if you have a high VO2 max session, you know, if you're, if you're really trying to push the envelope on a, on a workout or you know, you're, you're trying to get the, the top end speed, you know, even in training, even 10k runners, even marathon runners have to, you know, go to the well sometimes.

But that's kind of my point is like in a marathon, do you want it in your system?

Well, I think is it worth the, the biochemical hassle to deal with it versus you know, an all out two mile where you're going to clearly kind of need it because you're just, it's a, it's like a, you know, different symptom, you know, different pain drive for sure.

Are you saying that like with bicarbing your system in a marathon the body has to use energy to.

Yeah.

Because it's resources to deal with the excess, you know, stress.

Yeah.

I think that in a long term recovery, like if, if you do a workout with bicarb, as a marathon runner, you're gonna recover faster because you're basically negating the effect of that, that lactic acid for that moment in time.

You see what I'M saying like in training, but not so much in racing.

But isn't the effect of the lactic acid beneficial for training adaptation?

Oh, that's a good point.

Yeah.

So, you know, I would think, I.

Mean, it's like in a sense you're callousing the enzymes that have to deal.

With it for a race for performance.

That's where I would use the bicarb system.

But not so much if that's the training adaptation you're trying to effect.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, yeah, for.

Well, let, let's just kind of take a step back because we're kind of heading in a tangent.

So basically the, the biggest thing is that, you know, the obviously we're just neutralizing lactic acid.

Historically people have used baking soda, which was the arm and hammer joke earlier, which I did have a teammate in Malone that would do this.

But I think.

Have you had any teammates in the past use it?

Not that I'm aware of.

Yeah.

And I mean even Clayton would talk about like he joked he never even used it too.

You know, it was interesting.

I had an interesting conversate conversation with Nate Brennan, three time Olympian in the 15 for Canada and, and he was like, yeah, I think, I think it works.

He's like, I think, yeah.

If you consider the trackflation, the increased speed at the top end and the depth of distance running, of people running fast right now, I think it's just one of those things where, yeah, super shoes are kind of playing a role.

The faster tracks are playing a role, but not enough of a role.

There's another variable at hand here and he thinks that, you know, bicarb is a real thing.

So obviously people like Clayton have been successful without it.

But other people like, you know, you know, current people like Grant Fisher and Cooper and all them have used it and doing pretty well.

So I think it just kind of depends on how you're utilizing it.

But there is enough evidence to showing that it probably is somewhat beneficial for certain distances.

Yeah, well, and I think too like Clayton was always really good with round running, like got stronger and I, I don't feel like a lot of people up to now had that type of ability and possibly bicarb and like what we know about, you know, carbohydrate intake in terms of like muscle repair because you're instantaneously, I mean more in like the high endurance stuff.

But like we know that that stuff is like immediately going to recovery.

So I feel like the bicarb for a lot of these 800 runners now if we're talking 800 specifically is helping them run rounds and run fast and yeah.

Finish strong.

Yeah, we'll get into dosing and we'll get into negative effects and all that sort of stuff.

But as a general rule if you're like basically 10k down, it's worth tinkering with.

If you're 10k up, like running half or a full, it's maybe marginal if any gains and it's probably not worth the GI distress because that's one of the main side effects.

But if you're 10k down, specifically 5k down, I think, you know, meta analysis are showing like up to 2 to 3% gains potentially.

Yeah.

If it's performed correctly.

So let's kind of get into that.

If it's performed correctly.

Yeah, yeah.

I don't know anything about when to take it.

So I think dosage and you know, if you kind of do a little bit of a review like I think they're honing in on 0.3 grams per.

Or 0.3 grams per kilogram of body weight.

Yes.

Which for 150 pound person that's basically 20 grams.

Okay.

And you take it about an hour to three hours before.

I think there's kind of some difference.

In terms of, yeah, 90ish minutes.

And I think there is the value of what Jared was mentioning earlier of like tinkering with it in training because there's a sweet spot in terms of like when you're going to be able to utilize it versus the potential effects of it making its way through the GI tract too, too long to where it irritates the, the lower half, the, the lower portion of the GI or your large intestine.

So you kind of want it to be like gastric small intestine.

Correct.

Yes.

Before it kind of makes its way to the large intestine.

So if you wait maybe even farther up to three hours, it could almost be through, through and too far gone.

But then again if you have slow motility, so this is always something that you want to tinker with.

So if you're wanting to know how to utilize this in training and, or in racing in training with your high end workouts like Maxfield 2 type workouts, I would probably start at 60 and then slowly work your way back and just kind of see what changes you get.

And then you probably are gonna find like somewhere 60 minutes to 2 hours is probably the sweet spot.

Yeah.

And what did you do for your guard for the Guardian mile?

I did an hour out, six so 60 minutes.

And so one of the things with these bicarb systems is that they also encapsulate the bicarbonate in like a sugar glycerol matrix.

So basically it encapsulates the bicarb, the sodium bicarbonate, so that the stomach acid doesn't interact with the base.

So that when an acid and a base react together, carbon dioxide forms gas.

And that's where you get the GI distress.

And so I think, you know, having that as a fuel source too, so it's tough to say like, where the benefits come from.

Is it the sugar?

Is it the, the calories and the bicarb or just the, the sugar?

And so it's like, I think having both of those, you know, if you're going to take bicarb to have both the, that sugar aspect with it, because that's going to fuel the body, that's going to fuel your, your ability to, you know, to perform.

And the research shows that to absorb the, the bicarbonate, the sodium bicarbonate, taking it with a, a carbohydrate fuel source as well, it, it accelerates the absorption.

Does Morton add that into their product?

It does.

That's what they brought to the table.

Oh, so it's like one stop shop.

Yeah, well, they, because you know, again, it used to just be like putting it in water and then whatever you would do for your normal fuel.

But then, you know, they kind of came up with this like hydro carbohydrate system.

Basically this super saturated carbohydrate.

And that's their gel, their hydrogel in terms of the, the gel that you take for a marathon.

But they kind of took that same concept and created this glycerol matrix sort of thing to kind of help protect the bicarb.

So it makes its way through.

Yeah, so people were just running the risk back in the day with like taking baking soda and hoping that it would work.

And yeah, an early physiologist just literally looked at the math on it and we're just trying to cancel out lactic acid.

And dude, how many blowouts do you think people had?

Dude, that's when they started ramping up Porta Potties for sure.

It raises, yeah, no question, dude.

The 90s probably had some, some soiled, some soiled drawers.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, bicarb accidents.

I'M I'm sure.

And that's kind of why I was joking about it with the half marathon.

In the marathon it's like probably not worth the GI risk.

Yeah.

You know, the two minute porta pot stop at mile eight is not war.

It's not worth it like for a 1% gain that you can get on your kick in the last portion of the race.

And besides, who's even kicking.

Yeah.

Outside of the professional level in a marathon or half marathon.

So it's not even, not even an entertaining question to like, you know, when we even like start looking at like ultra stuff.

Obviously you're not going to take it for ultras, but do you think someone could tinker taking it like aid station to aid station?

Like would that have any effect?

The ultra scene is maybe a little bit different because say you're doing um, like we did the rim to rim to rim where you are actually planning on for a portion of the run hammering through like the uphill.

And you know there's gonna be, you're actually hammering as you are gonna get a lot of lactic acid, but you know you're gonna get a recovery on the back end.

Maybe that could be okay.

But then again, how will you respond, you know, a couple hours later, like if you're continuing to run, um, is it worth, you know, that situation that you might be dealing with on the back half versus 1 2% gains that you might be getting on the uphills?

I don't know.

I, I, I'm sure people are going to tinker with it.

Oh, 100 they're going to tinker with it.

It's headed that way.

So it's kind of interesting that you guys bring up the, the ultra conversation.

I, I, a little bit of research.

They, they were telling they Tour de France riders that they'll take bicarb before like a hard stage, like a hard uphill.

Even though that's a basically an ultra endurance of biking event, cycling event, but like going up a really steep incline or like, you know, they're in a later stage of the race where they need to sprint and they need to pass people.

They'll, they'll strategically place bicarb in that, around those windows.

They're doing everything inside.

Well, I, I feel like that makes sense to me because they're not bouncing around.

Right.

You know, and they're not going to get the GI distress that you wouldn't in running.

Yeah, well, in the amount that they're ingesting to their stomachs are like just.

Steel yeah, well, that's one of the hidden B traits and characteristics of a good cyclist is to be able to take in that much calories and process it.

Speaking of that, because I know.

I know part of that process, like talking about high carbohydrate intake, like the 120 grams, 150 grams an hour.

That the way that it.

Or from what I've read and what I've listened to from other physiologists, is that truly the best and most effective way for it to be effective is that you have to be in good gut health.

Yeah.

Is that the same with bicarb to utilize?

And that might be why some people get a benefit and others don't.

Yeah.

You know, like, if the general public who's going in with, you know, leaky God and just dysbiosis and just a bad situation in the gut versus a professional athlete who's very strict and with their diet and.

And very precise with their diet, they might actually have a much better environment to handle the actual bicarb.

I think.

I think that's really.

I don't know if that's been fleshed out, and I think that's one of the errors when you look at it like a meta analysis of what, like, professional athletes are doing and then working your way backwards.

Yeah.

You know, it's like, you would never tell a high school kid to reproduce the workout of LeBron James because that's obviously, you're right.

Totally missing all of the infrastructure that he's built over those decades of training.

And so it's like, yeah, like, it might be beneficial for people that are at a certain level, but is it beneficial for everyone?

Right.

So maybe you're not, like, physiologically even equipped enough to handle this, but this is what I.

Like what Amanda Vestry said about, you know, in.

In the women's 6K podcast, how she was talking about, like, dude, make sure all your ducks in a row with the most basic things.

Yeah.

Make sure you're sleeping well, make sure you're eating well, make sure you're hydrated, make sure you're doing the work.

Normal workouts, like, and then if you want to tinker with these other variables, like bicarb, well, this is not a magic bullet.

Like, this is.

This is maybe something that is the icing on the cake on a great infrastructure of.

Of a training regimen, but probably not a thing to stand alone on.

Right?

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The work has to be done first.

It's like, you know, you can wear super shoes you can, you can do all that kind of thing.

But if you don't have the base, if you don't have the foundation, I should say before, then, you know, it's like putting a cherry on top of a, just a plain ice cream cone.

You don't have the, the thick part of it there.

So.

Yeah, you know, I think it's interesting.

We talk about gut health and if, you know, over time, over, you know, a chronic use or a loading stage, you know, if you have you know, low stomach acid, literally bicarb is neutralizing that stomach acid so indefinitely encapsulating it with a gel matrix so that it goes into the small intestine and not stay in the stomach because those, those that high acidic environment is meant to break down proteins.

And so you know, when we talk about long term repair and, and recovery, having, having a stomach acid around and, and that production is going to help with digestion of foods.

And so if we're just constantly be, you know, barraging the system with bicarbonate, then you're literally neutralizing your ability to break down protein.

Yeah, and so that makes sense that you would not want to eat like a protein heavy meal like prior to an event, you know, which is gonna be like a mile or two mile kind of all out sort of a time trial or race situation.

Um, because again you're gonna tie up all those acids that are gonna be, you know, dedicated towards breaking down the protein.

So you know, I think it maybe changes your pre raised fueling.

Yeah, I'm, I'm talking like you know, after hours or you know, if you're tinkering, tinkering with this like you know, several times a day, which I wouldn't recommend that at all.

Well, there is the concept of bicard loading though.

There is, yeah.

So basically where you, three to seven days out, like you know, for a marathon, you would obviously carb load.

So we understand the concept of that.

And then there's also now the concept of sodium loading.

We're heading into a major event, um, especially in the summer, you'll load up on element or some sodium intake and just to kind of make sure your stores are topped off.

Well, there's also the concept of, well there's creatine loading as well.

Mm, that's another thing.

So you have like carbs, sodium and creatine or three common products that you can load heading into a major event.

But I think some people also try bicarb loading, which I don't know.

I mean, I think there's maybe some Marginal excessive gains on that, maybe that kind of gets you up to that 3%.

The dosage is, Is a little bit less.

Yeah, it's like 0.1 to 1 and 0.1 and a half to 0.2 instead of 0.3.

0.3.

So if you're 150 pound male or female, that would be like, instead of 20 grams right before the race, like an hour or two before the race or event, that might look like a day, you know, 15ish grams is.

Yeah, yeah.

And when do you add, like, when would you take that just ramp, like randomly in the day?

I actually don't know.

Well, I mean, if we, if we think about it like when our stomach is producing the most acid, it would probably be after a meal, like sometime in between eating food.

So that stomach acid isn't being readily produced.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, so take it with a meal or after?

After.

In between your meals?

Yeah, once the bolus of food has kind of made us through the, the stomach.

Um, but yeah, so basically.03 grams per.

Per kilogram of body weight.

So unfortunately for us Americans that work off pounds, we gotta do a little math on that one.

Um, and then, you know, you get that idea of, of bicarb loading.

So three to seven days and that might look like, you know, you might.

So some of the articles I read actually said you can get up to 5.5 grams per kilogram of body weight per day.

Wow.

But in each session you might like eating session, you might take 0.15 grams per kilogram of body weight.

So meaning, like after breakfast you take a little bit of carb.

After lunch you take a little bit of carb and dinner, et cetera.

And then those three add up to.05 grams per kilogram of body weight.

Oh, okay.

More micro.

Do more micro dosing.

Exactly.

And then you would still keep the same strategy the day of the actual race.

This is.

If somebody really notices a benefit, like they are like all in on bicarb.

They notice, they know it works.

It's effective for them.

Very in tune with their body.

Yeah.

If I have a son or daughter running JV track, should I give them bicarb?

Probably not.

I think, I think not even for the perspective of, like, can it be beneficial for them.

But I don't like having them rely on some external substance because it's a psychological thing.

Going back to the Amanda comment, I think, you know, creating better habits and understanding and psychology of racing and performance, that's healthy and not reliant on something else.

I think builds deep, deep confidence.

And then, you know, you, we all talk about Grant Fisher and it's like, right.

But Grant Fisher spent decades getting his teeth kicked in with training and racing and training and racing.

And he didn't just wake up to be the Grant Fisher he is now.

So like, yeah, he can add in bicarb and give him that 1 to 2% gain.

And it's like it makes sense in that situation because he's literally chasing world records, chasing fastest human ever.

And so, you know, in that situation that makes more sense to me.

But no, I, I just.

For the, for the mental sanity of the kid, I think that's important to just not do things like that.

I agree.

Yeah.

Real quick, I wanted even high school kids, I mean, no, Cooper, Luke and House, however you say his name, did it for the 800.

And he was pretty vocal about that, right?

Yeah, he's at that level though.

He's.

But he's there, you know, he's obviously there.

But what's crazy about him though is six months ago he only ran 150 in the 800.

Oh, wow.

Good train right there.

I did not know that.

So that is a meteoric rise.

Wow.

Blocked him up, right?

Yeah.

Well, I wanted to add in, you know, for us who deal in grams and pounds.

So for like 160 pound person, that's about 22 grams for the day of the race.

Yes.

And then 180, that's 24 grams.

And then for a 200 pound individual, that's 27 grams.

So basically with every increase in 20 pounds, you're going up 2 to 3 grams of bicarb there.

What about like hit training or like CrossFit kind of stuff?

Do we know if this has any effect on that?

Yeah, it does.

High lactate with low rest.

You know, you're really tapping into those, you know, carbohydrate stores, glycogen, glycolytic energy systems.

So anytime you're utilizing those systems, having a bicarbonate buffer is going to help out with that.

So it could be rowing or cycling or sprinting or you know, any aerobic endurance sport or aerobic endurance from like we talked about time wise.

So.

Yeah, what a crazy thing.

But even up to like 12 to 15 minutes of performance, so I wonder.

If it's gonna like trickle in or like how it Would do trickling into like construction work.

Like, like a roofer taking shingles up to the roof, you know.

Interesting.

Get a little bit more done.

Right.

That, that could be open up a whole nother avenue.

You're like, honey, I'm gonna take some bicarb and cut down a tree in an hour.

It just hits the house.

Just zipping around the yard.

Yeah.

I mean it's gonna.

Oh.

I mean this stuff's crazy.

If it can get into anything.

It can get, I mean literally.

Yeah.

Use it for your local spike ball tournament.

Yeah.

I mean if you can get that extra 2 to 3%.

So what I wanted to talk one, one more thing that I think is interesting is have you, have you guys ever heard like the idea of the alkaline diet and why you know like cancers and tumors don't.

Don't replicate well in alkaline environment?

Do you think like a, like what's.

An example of alkaline, like fruits, veggies?

Yes, I believe so.

Yeah.

So it's like, has to do with like raw, the raw material after you've like, if you, it's like, it's fun.

It's kind of a weird way of thinking of it, but if you think of food as like wood and then when you burn it or you consume it, there's an ash that's left over.

Yeah.

Is the ash alkaline or acidic and like meat, dairy, that kind of stuff tank tends to produce really acidic ash or aftermath and then fruits and veggies are alkaline anyways.

That's, that's what an alkaline diet essentially is.

Okay.

And then like the systemic disease development and being in alkaline, an alkaline diet sort of negates that or, or helps mitigate those diseases from, from progressing.

I mean what do we think about like actually adding a small amount of bicarbonate into like your diet throughout the day?

Yeah.

To, to kind of not cure but prevent or to manage or reduce the chances.

That's a really interesting thought.

Yeah, that is a really interesting thought.

Yeah.

But I think some 16 year old kid that survives on like Cheez its is probably thinking about it differently.

Yeah, probably they're like, oh, I could stole skittles and race oil nerd clusters.

But that's a really interesting point.

I think.

And you know, I mean, I think if you're in that situation of having like cancer or something like that.

Do anything that could possibly help.

Yeah, I don't know.

I mean I'm sure it can't harm.

It Just a food for thought.

Just an idea.

Yeah.

But, yeah, that's an interesting thought process if you're going to try to really maximize your recovery in that instance.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Zacharoni, got any other questions about bicarb?

No, I think I. I think so.

From what we told you today, is it a thumbs up or a thumbs down?

I mean, I think it's a thumbs up, depending on, like, who you are and what you're trying to do.

And, like, I. I think just going back with.

With any of this stuff, you know, like, we have all these cool gizmos.

We have all these cool shoes and heart rate monitors and, like, all these apparel things.

And then what we're finding is that, like, it's marginal gains.

Yeah.

So I think that if you're at a level to where, like, you're fit, you got all your.

Your.

Your.

Your.

Your ducks in a row.

You have all your T's crossed and your eyes dotted.

Yeah.

Do it.

But.

So back to your question earlier.

Let's move up to high school.

Would you advise a high school?

Not at all.

What about college kid?

Not.

And this is where I talked to Nate about this.

I wouldn't.

And I do agree with him on this.

And this is what I thought as well.

I wouldn't do it for a freshman or a sophomore, but I would do, like, junior, senior.

Like, say they popped and they're running pretty well.

Yep.

Instead of a leg kind of thing.

What about you, Jared?

Thumbs up, thumbs down.

I. I say it's a thumbs up.

I'm one of those people that just likes to experiment.

And, you know, it's like, I, I.

Would you have taken this in high school had you known?

Yes.

1, 100.

Because I, you know, it's always that thing that thought in the back your mind that's like.

Yes, but what if, you know, is like, you know, what if I would have done that, like, had that knowledge back then, you know, would have experimented with it?

Like, you, you know, you.

You experiment with it.

You try it, and if it.

If it doesn't work, well, then.

Then you just, literally just didn't move on.

Move the needle didn't move any.

In.

In any direction.

Like, you know, so I'm gonna try it with marathon training.

I've already tried it a couple of times.

And, you know, the.

The results I've had.

I mean, when I made my own formula, I felt like it actually had more of an effect than the.

The company that I bought it from.

But maybe that was gonna patent his own, Right?

Yeah.

Right.

Bicarb, but like bugoat bicarb.

I like solid in his, in his, his Hyundai Kona.

Yeah, dude.

I mean, it's gonna be like the ice cream truck at races, dude, just driving around here.

Buy your bike arm here.

But, you know, I think a part of that was like, you know, I felt like I was hacking the system.

So it was like, oh, I'm, I'm doing this and like, I, I have my own thing and I'm gonna see if it works.

And it was more of that than maybe actually the, the product.

And who knows, maybe it did.

I, I performed pretty well with it.

But, you know, I'd say if someone's trying to do it at home, like make, get a pack of Jello and then make some sodium bicarbonate with it, and you've created your own hydrogel matrix.

And there you go.

Cheap, easy, and effective.

You've always been, you've always been gadget guy.

I'm not gadget guy.

I, I, where do you stand on it?

I, I, I'd say, you know, the small percentage of elites or a small percentage of individuals that have maximized everything else I think should utilize it.

It's there for their offering.

I think the individuals below that don't really need to be tinkering with it.

They just need to create a better foundation of things.

Me personally, I, I'm like kind of in between where you guys are at, I think.

Like, for me personally, like, I'd like, like to tinker with it and just see if it works and if it, if, But I'm really good about like, not letting things get hung up.

So say, say I take it one time and it works.

And then say I take, don't take it another time.

I'm not going to be like, oh darn, I should have taken it.

And all of a sudden I feel like I'm going to race worse because there was a world where I didn't know this stuff existed anyways, and I still would run well.

So I think that I can really dissociate my mind pretty well based on what I'm doing.

But, and in the, in the end, for me, performance is not about what the end result is.

Performance is like, can I look myself in the mirror and that I give it my all.

And I feel like I can still do that without bicarb.

And so that's the value to me.

Yeah, but, you know, absolutely.

I think the grand fishers of the world should utilize it.

I think people at that level, I think people that have Built up to that level.

Say, even if you're a master's runner, you know, if you want to run fast on the track and you're trying to run a 15 or 3K fast on the track and you, you're, you've trained hard and this is your, a raise, we'll tinker with it heading into that.

I mean, I don't think there's any harm with that.

But you know, the younger individuals that don't have that decade worth infrastructure of development and psychology of racing and performance probably shouldn't get hung up on it.

Yeah, I agree.

Yeah, I think that's good.

That's a good take too.

Yeah, awesome.

Well, any final tidbits there, Bill Nye?

Like hard Bill?

Yeah, I mean, I, there's, there's a couple more things, but like, you know, bicarbonate is a, is an extracellular, meaning outside of the cell in the blood buffer system.

You also have an intracellular inside the cell buffer system, which, you know, if we're talking how we can pair things together to make a synergistic effect, adding a beta alanine as sort of a, you know, another thing here that, that.

So then that forms carine.

So a precursor to carine, and carine is your intracellular buffer system.

So the, the idea is if you were to take both and that would, that would cover both inside the cell and outside the cell as well.

So.

And just then it's going to turn your gut inside and out.

That's right.

And your shorts scattered and splattered.

While you're itching your face, too.

Yeah.

He's like, I pr, but my thumb's twice the size.

It's like I'm going through allergenic response.

But I ran fast.

My lips are swollen.

All right, well, thanks everybody for listening to another great episode and, you know, let us know your thoughts on this.

But overall, just kind of a mad response to this.

But I think it's important for people to sort of tinker with this on their own and, you know, kind of take this information and kind of run with it.

But if you have any other questions or concerns, reach out to us and, and we'll try to cover in some of the future topics and, and episodes on this.

But you know us, we're always trying, always trying to stay up on research and, you know, what the industry is saying.

And, and so I think this was a good kind of up to date fun episode on bicarb.

Keep training.

Thank you Dr. Leo here.

Be sure to check out my new book Faster Without Fail, your guide to overcoming injuries and running faster than ever.

It is now available on Amazon.

Could read reviews on Amazon.

You can check out what other people have said about it.

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Feel free to reach out and let us know what you think of the book.

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Faster without fail.

Appreciate it Dr. Leo here.

If you want to catch me in another setting, be sure to check out my YouTube page running rehab where you will find exercises on how to stay healthy with running, how to improve your running form, and a bunch of other tips and tricks on how to get over common injuries.

So again, Running Rehab Sam.