Welcome to another episode of Final Approach. I’m your host, Jonathan Knaul, and this week’s episode is a heartfelt journey through aviation achievement, family bonds, and the realities of caregiving, all told through the story of my good friend and colleague, Steve Rainey (call sign “Hooter”). We sit down at my home in Palmdale, CA, to talk about the high-flying world of test pilots, but more importantly, the grounded challenges of caring for loved ones.

In this episode, I introduce Steve, whose legendary aviation resume includes serving as the lead and chief test pilot on the F-22 Raptor for Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and the U.S. Air Force. We discuss his storied career, including his beginnings in rural Illinois, first flight experiences, and transitions through the Air Force Academy, Naval Test Pilot School, and flying the world’s largest wingspan aircraft at Stratolaunch.

But our conversation takes a much more personal turn as Steve opens up about his recent journey as a caregiver to his father. He shares the emotional, logistical, and financial challenges faced when caring for aging parents, from remote monitoring, securing home caregivers, and navigating the health system, to the heartbreak of loss and the importance of community support.

We reflect on the family environment at National Test Pilot School (NTPS), the power of having a strong support system—both at work and in personal life—and how being part of a caring team makes all the difference, especially during life’s toughest moments.

Key Takeaways

1. From Cockpits to Caring: Even the most accomplished professionals, including test pilots, face vulnerable moments—like those spent caring for aging parents. Sharing these stories helps normalize them and makes us stronger.
2. Value of Family & Support: Having a “family” at work, and a strong network of friends and colleagues, is invaluable when dealing with personal challenges.
3. Caregiving Realities: The transition to caregiving often comes with complex emotions, guilt, and logistical struggles, especially when negotiating between independence, dignity, and safety for loved ones.
4. Finding Good Help: Sometimes, the best caregiving resources come from personal connections, not just online searches or formal channels.
5. Cherish the Present: Spend time with your loved ones—don’t wait for “next time.” Those moments are precious and finite.
6. Aviation Community Lessons: The test pilot community’s emphasis on collaboration, safety, and mutual support has valuable lessons for caregiving—don’t try to do it alone.
7. Emotional Honesty Matters: Embracing and expressing emotion, even in traditionally stoic professions, is a form of true strength.

If you’re moved by Steve Rainey’s story or facing your own caregiving journey, I encourage you to visit finalapproachbook.com. There, you can join our caregiving community, sign up for our newsletter packed with support and tips, and learn more about my book, Final Approach: A Test Pilot Story of Caring for Loved Ones, available in print, audio, and ebook formats.

If you’re a caregiver, know that you are not alone. Reach out, share your experiences, and build your support network—just like we do in aviation. And if this episode resonated with you, please share it, leave a review, and stay tuned for more candid conversations about flying, family, and finding your way through life’s final approaches.

Best in care,

Jonathan

Welcome everyone to Final Approach, a Test Pilot Story of Caring for Loved Ones, the podcast that comes out of my book by the same name. It's mid October here in Palmdale, California at my house. I have a very another special guest with us today. It's Steve Rainey, call sign Hooter, a colleague and friend of mine. Very privileged to have him. I'll introduce him in just a moment. First of all, I'd like to say thank you for tuning in to the podcast and listening and please do go to the website finalapproachbook.com all one word where I have a newsletter on caregiving and you can learn a bit more about the book and about the little community I'm trying to establish for caregivers. So you can get tips, you can talk to each other and you can learn more and, and you can also order the book which is available in hard copy, paperback, audio and ebook.

So today I have with me, I'm looking at them, so it's a little bit awkward. We're sitting here across the table looking at each other at my dining room table with Steve Rainey and you'll hear me call Steve Hooter, which is typical for us as test pilots to go buy call signs. And Hooter is, he's the VP of operations at National Test Pilot School where we both work. And I'm the senior rotary wing test pilot there, a test pilot instructor. Steve's a long time test pilot himself. Tremendous background. Steve, I'm so excited to have you here. As I was just, we were just talking before and I said I would of course say the same things as privilege.

Steve Hooter has this incredible background as a test pilot working in the United States Air Force. Graduate of the United States Air Force Academy, served flying F4 Phantoms, F22 pilot on the Raptor. That's maybe one of Steve's biggest stakes in his career. Was the lead test pilot on the F22 for Boeing, was the chief test pilot on the F22 for Lockheed Martin. Previously was the lead test pilot on the F22 with the United States Air Force again, also flew F4 Phantoms. Graduate of, as I mentioned, of the academy at the USAF Academy. Also graduate of the University of Miami. A bit of connection there too because before UCLA my brother in law was the president at um, so I thought that was kind of cool when I learned that about you.

And, and Steve has also been, Hooter's also been the test pilot on the biggest aircraft ever built and flying flies next door to Us at national Test Pilot School with straddle launch. And so. And now Steve's with. I keep saying Steve, but it's really used to seeing more Hooter Hooters with us. And, and, and it's just great. You know, I think it's been a year and a half that we've about that time that since you joined us at ntps and I was really excited when you did. And we don't see much of each other during the daytime, but every time I do see you Hooter, it's pleasure. We're going to talk.

I really like. Please take it over, introduce yourself. Please tell us a bit about your career. And we're also going to talk, of course, about caregiving because Steve has that recently in his background and I'd like to get to that too. So welcome Hooter.

Well, jk, thank you very much. It's a privilege to be here. It was an honor for you to ask me to participate. So I really appreciate it. You pretty much hit my career perhaps, perhaps some, some highlights that. That or. Or some information that helps tie back into caregiving and touches my career. I grew up in a little town, Mount Vernon, Illinois.

It's about 80 miles east of St. Louis. My parents, Bob Rainey and Pat Rainey, best parents that, that a. That a guy could wish for. My sister Carol, best sister that a guy could wish for. And I grew up that idyllic life in the 60s and 70s. Ride two wheels anywhere I wanted in town and have a good time. But all this love of aviation started for me probably.

I don't think I had quite turned four yet. My grandmother took care of me during the day, babysat me while my mom and dad both worked. And one day, I remember they sat me down in front of the television and they tried to explain to me how important this day was. They tried to show me this missile. There's a man. They're going to shoot this man into outer space on top of this missile. And I've got in my mind that, that this is like Slim Pickens on, on the bomb, right? So I get up right next to the television. I'm trying to see this brave soul that's straddling this.

This missile. And in fact, it was Alan Shepard's launch. Shortly after that, a friend of my father's who was an oil man in town. And you'll like this. My first.

Well, I already liked the whole thing about Al Shepard. I think that's the coolest thing that you remember that because that was A bit before me. Not too long before me, but that's.

Oh, quite a bit. But you'll like this part. My first opportunity airborne was with this oil man in town, Johnny Oslager, who it was in a helicopter. So my first airborne experience was actually in a helicopter. And then maybe a year later, something like that. My dad knew the airport manager, Max Firebaugh. He was a war hero. Flew.

Flew, I believe, B25s in World War II. And he took a Sairborne and a Cessna 182. So already really had an interest in flying. And shortly after that. So maybe I'm 4 or 5 years old.

By the way, we still have a commitment that you and I are going flying. You're coming with me.

How to hover again.

Okay.

I haven't done that in over 30 years.

Okay. So I just had the pot. Okay.

Absolutely.

Good.

So. So they had an air show at our little airport. Not big enough for jets. It was primarily, as I recall, army helicopters, small reconnaissance planes, that kind of thing. And I'm sitting on the hood of my dad's 55 Oldsmobile. And in those days, you know how today we have what's a popular shoot? Converse. Well, when I was a kid, it was the PF flyers. So I'm tying my PF flyers looking eastbound and unknowns to me.

Unbeknownst to me, the Air Force Thunderbirds flew by in F1 hundreds. Very low. I don't think they had a crowd line or an altitude limit in the day. Very cool. In full afterburner. I felt it before I heard it, before I saw it. Scared me.

How many in the formation?

It was, the whole thing. So it was six.

Six, yeah.

And I fell off the hood of the car onto the ground, looked up. I call it my Will Smith moment. Now, I didn't know then, but you know the movie Independence Day where he gets to fly the. The spaceship and he says, I've got to have me one of these. That's how I felt. And I just knew then, and my mom and dad helped me tie that together. Well, you want to be an astronaut? Well, then you got to be a test pilot. If you want to be a test pilot, you need to be a fighter pilot.

You want to be a fighter pilot, you need to be in the Air Force. You want to be in the Air Force. And of course, early that early. I don't think the Air Force Academy was brand new. But by the time I was probably in junior high or certainly young in high school, I knew that's where I wanted to go and what I wanted to do. So my mom and dad, that I ultimately ended up having to do some. Some care for and not enough because they certainly gave their everything for me. But.

But that they started me on this trek, this lifetime adventure, and. And I owe it all to them. And that's kind of how I got started. And then, like you mentioned, I went to the Air Force Academy. After that, I actually gave up a couple of weeks of leave because they wanted some guys to start p. Training early. And I was so ripper and ready, ready to go, that I did it. I got Phantoms out of that, like you.

You mentioned did. Phantoms in Germany, which is where I met my wife, who is not German. She just happened to be with her parents. Who.

Cindy.

Cindy. Yep. She. Cindy. Her father was a civil service guy and. And got to. To be stationed at Ramstein for a while. And they called her while she was in college and said, why don't you put a hold on college and come on over here? And somehow I convinced her to go out with me.

And now that's all history. So flew Phantoms at Ramstein and then I went back as an instructor at the rtu, the training unit at Homestead. That's when I started working on my master's degree. It was a long drive to University of Miami.

Yeah. Where were you living at the time?

On Bay, just south of the base. We lived on base for a while.

And then we lived at Elgin.

No, no, this is a Homestead.

Oh, at Homestead. Well, that's right. Okay, so it's about an hour.

Yeah, yeah, sure. And so we. We. I spent a lot of time working on my master's through the University of Miami. My. My undergraduate degree was engineering mechanics from the academy. They. They had a master's degree in mechanical engineering at the University of Miami.

But by the time I signed up for classes, all the classes that I wanted, which were structures classes, which is what I was primarily focused on at the academy, they didn't offer them anymore. And it ended up being a. It was a fluid mechanics master's degree, which was a little bit of a challenge for me after having been out of school for a number of years.

Fluid mechanics is hard.

Yes, it is.

That is not an easy subject.

And my first. My first course was compressible flow. Half the class was master's candidates, half were doctoral candidates. And if it hadn't been for a couple of doctoral students helping me out, I probably wouldn't have made it.

And you're. And I imagine you were the Only fighter pilot in the class.

I was the only fighter pilot in the class, yes, yes. And so I was going to transition. The base was transitioning to F16s, and I was on the docket to transition to F16s with the 307th Fighter Squadron. And I got a call from Eglin Air Force Base, the developmental side, which is now the 40th. It used to be the 3247th test squadron. And they had a loss of a bunch of F4 pilots, and they needed somebody yesterday. And initially I turned him down and said, thank you, sir, but I need to take this transition. And he kept telling me, well, if you come here, you're going to learn about flight test.

And our ops group commander is on the board for selection. It will help you get selected for test pilot school if that's what you're.

Wanting to do, which will help you to be an astronaut, which.

Yeah. So everything looked. It looked like that's what I should do. And. But I just couldn't. I wanted that F16. So I turned him down. And he called me a little later because I.

I told him when I was scheduled to go to training, where I was going to go to training, and he called me back the next day and he says, okay, everybody here is dual or triple qualified. Anyway, why not you? I have you in the same class the same time now, will you come here? So I went to Eglin and spent. Spent about three years there, two and a half years or so, I think, doing F4 test, F16 test, and the guys were great. I got to do so many things. I learned so much without actually going to test pilot school yet.

And you were dual qualified on two.

Jets and I was dual qualified.

I think for listeners who are not like test pilots, fighter pilots, to understand, like, the F4 is A. It's a big jet. It's a huge.

It's a beast.

It's a beast of a fighter jet. You know, an iconic fighter jet that, you know, did so many amazing things in Vietnam in particular. And then the F16, which is a much smaller jet but so incredibly dynamic and much more advanced in its systems. Anyways, back to you.

Oh, it was fantastic. And they let me do pretty much everything except flutter and captive compatibility testing. So, yeah, it was a good deal for me. And then I did. I got selected for test pilot school.

Which also, I mean, for folks to understand too, I mean, this is extreme edge of the envelope testing of what are aircraft that are already extreme in their abilities.

I had some interesting things Happen both as chase and as the test airplane, but very, very interesting testing. And it got me, it got me acquainted and, and informed before I ever got to go to test pilot school. And when I did get selected, I got selected to go to the, you know, you get the opportunity to, to volunteer to go to other test pilot schools. And I think I volunteered for all of them except the French school because I don't speak French.

So I had the inverse. I didn't get any choice. And they sent me to the French school.

Well, there you go.

Yeah.

And I got selected to go to the Naval Test Pilot School. And I believe what they told me was apparently someone just before me had had trouble going through the naval water survival training and looking in my records. I had an A in survival swimming at the academy. And so I got to go to the Navy. And so it was interesting to see how the other half lives. Interesting to see how they do work, how they live. And it gives you a perspective, you know, My dad, God bless him, he kind of believed if you couldn't do a job with a pair of pliers, a screwdriver, and some bailing wire, it didn't need to be done. But I learned right tool for the.

Right job, I think you said earlier. What was his profession, your dad?

You know, right out of high school, he went in the navy during the Korean War, so he spent his time in the Navy. After the Navy, he worked in while he was going to school, trying to get an education degree. He worked at a stove foundry and then he got a job with an insurance agency that eventually he ended up being partner in. He sold his shares on that, sold cars for a while, and then retired. So pretty simple guy and my hero.

That's what I was gonna ask. I had the feeling that he was your hero. My dad, for me too, was my hero. And that's a big deal.

It's simple things. He was very strict, but very fair and always loving. And I'll give you an example I wanted so bad when I was a child, about 10 years old, I so wanted a mini bike. Some of my friends had one, and I'm just talking the little Briggs and Stratton engine, you know. And they told me, no, that's too dangerous and too expensive and all that. And one Christmas, it's snowing outside. We've opened all of our presents, had a great Christmas. My sister was just, oh, I think a baby at the time because she's seven years younger than me, so toddler at least.

And everything was done. And we're picking up the wrapping paper and all that I'm helping clean up. And, and he says, steve, go put your clothes on and a coat. I need you to come into the garage through the utility room and help me with something. Okay? And so I do that and, and as I step down the stairs, I noticed my mom is following me, carrying my little sister, you know, and, and she has this smirk on her face. And I open the utility room door to the garage and there's my dad with his big Oldsmobile backed up into the garage and he has a smirk on his face and he opens the trunk and there is a brand new 1970 Honda Trail set.

Wow.

And so, you know, wow. I'm thinking, wow, this is great. There were two versions, one 3 speed automatic and one 4 speed with a clutch. And he said, you're going to learn how to ride motorcycles the right way with a clutch. And so it's snowing, as I mentioned, I'm out in the driveway. I don't know anything about this. He's trying to tell me how to use it right. And I rev too, too quickly and pop the clutch and it leaps away from me.

And what's right in front of me, a telephone pole and, and what's going through my mind is here. I've wanted this forever. I've had it for five seconds and I'm going to destroy it. And out of the blue, two strong arms reach in, pick this thing straight up in the air, set it back down. Said, let's try that again.

That's awesome.

And there are just countless examples of where my father stepped in to help me with something or to provide guidance or to, or to stop me from doing something stupid. And was always, he and my mom were always my top supporters, my number one fans. So I think that that leads into the caregiving part now actually, I got.

An interim question because we were talking about going to the Navy Test pilot school. I mean, test pilot school is hard. It's not easy. You sort of just survive it. And so were you phoning back to your parents? I mean, me, I, when I was at test pilot school, I was calling back to my mom at the time and I'm like, hey, you know, I just wanted to talk to her and I just wanted to hear her say, you're fine, just keep doing what you're doing, you're going to be okay. And I needed that. And it really helped out a lot.

We've been very close my whole life. When I was at the academy, I'd call them all the time. My mom probably was the more eloquent, would, would say, say, say all the right things. My dad was very supportive. And then when my mom. I lost my mom in 1995 and she was only 61. And, and my dad would, would try and fill in. Right.

With, with everything that my mom would say. He would make sure he would, he would fill in for what she would say as well as his, his thoughts.

And my story is similar. I lost my dad at age 60, middle mid-80s, older parents, but yeah, similar. Sorry, keep.

No, no, it's a, that's. I think that's important because it's a different animal when you lose a parent. I'm not going to say young in life. I was in my 30s. Right. But nonetheless, a loss of a parent at can be hard and, and like, you know, as you mentioned, yes, we were close, so I called them a lot. We were in communication all the time. When I was in Germany, I would call them when I could, a test pilot school.

We've always done that. After Naval Test Pilot School, I ended up at Edwards where I wanted to be. Spent about six to nine months in the Test Operations Squadron, which again, is.

A big change, I think. You know, for listeners who don't know much about test flight or flight test, you know, the right stuff. Tom Wolfie, really, especially in the movie, you really see it like it's the moon out here. It's. It's the Mojave Desert. And, and, and so. And you came at an earlier time when there was less development, so. And moving out here was not easy for you either, I imagine.

Oh, I was excited.

Okay.

Yeah, I wanted to be here.

Oh, that's. And Cindy was with you?

She was.

So it must have been hard on her though.

Probably. You know, I did a. After she moved away from Germany, I had a Red Flag event from Ramstein. For those of you who don't know, Red Flag is just a large scale exercise at Nellis Air Force Base for the Air Force. Well, for a lot of forces now. And then I flew her into Vegas and we drove out to Edwards because I had an interview with the commandant and just like the movie, the Right Stuff. We're staying in the. The old VOQs, which is the dog park now, by the way.

But sure enough, turn on the water and rust and mud and my poor sweet wife. I believe that my proposal was something along the lines of, well, this is where I see my future. So if this scares you, you might want to get out now, otherwise, why don't we get married. And so she gives me grief to this day about my lovely proposal, as you can imagine. But yes, she's. We've been together 41 years, so have two great kids, Michael and Valerie. So it's been a wonderful life for me in that regard.

Haven't met your children, of course. They're adults now. Met Cindy a couple of times and she's. She's lovely. You're a lucky man.

I am, yeah. So we spent some time at Test Ops and then because my previous F16 time, they needed A, the replacement B flight commander to do mainly avionics test. So I was the lantern guy, did all the lantern testing. And at the time, General Yates, the AFMC commander or Systems Command commander at the time, had a plan. And his plan was once you got to a ctf, you got three years. And I don't even think I got two years. And a gentleman by the name of Al Cohn, a great American who I was at Eglin with. That's where I met Al, a test pilot at Eglin.

And he called me. He was at the F22 spo and when I went through test pilot school, by the way, that's when the fly off, or actually Demval they call it, not really a fly off, but between the YF22 and the YF23 was taking place at Edwards. And I showed up at Edwards the next year. So all that was brand new. But the Demval program was over.

And this is now like we're in the late 90s.

No, this is 1991, when I get to Edwards. But Al called me and he needed someone to work weapons stuff for F22 at the F22 program office. And I still had at least a year left, maybe more on, on my, on my Tour at the F16s. But all the leadership thought it would be a great thing for me. And I'm. I'm thinking stars like, oh, boy, I get to go. Maybe I'll get to go fly this, this thing when we build it. And then I get to this bow.

And I did have a good time working with Al, but there were so many test pilots with the same idea there. And there were interesting times, challenging times. The good news was now I'm in Wright Patterson, Ohio. And I was close to mom and dad that. Relatively close. They were in Illinois, I was in Ohio. So we could drive back. We could see them now.

Five, six hour drive, maybe.

Yeah, something like that. And unfortunately, that's while I Was there in 95 is when my mom got very, very ill, and they allowed me some time to just go spend at home. And I lost my mom in 95. So, you know, I think whatever powers it be, you know, that was meant to be. That I was close enough that I could kind of. Kind of be there for my mom.

That's hard. Hooter and I totally empathize, you know, even to this day. I mean, obviously it's many years ago, but I'm sure it's. The feelings are still there.

A loss like that, it hurts every day. We were very close, but she passed away from cancer, so. And then I got lucky. I mean, incredibly lucky. It had nothing to do with anything other than probably good old Al Cohn again. My boss ended up going off to senior service school. And then when he was done with senior service school, he was selected to be the first commander, CTF director of the F22 CTF at Edwards. No airplane built yet.

Just setting the thing up. And one day he called me up and said, I'm a little busy, because he had three hats. He was still the SPO Director of test. He was the CTF director. That's Combined Test Force. For those that don't know what that is, that's the military squadron, which was the 411th Flight Test Squadron, and then the Boeing, Lockheed, Civil Service, Pratt and Whitney. All those folks together come together and is called a Combined Test Force. And so he was wearing three hats and really didn't have time to do the ops piece of it and invited me to come to be his operations officer.

So I owe a lot to that gentleman for getting me on board again with the program.

That's pretty cool. And it's a big feather in your cap when somebody important says, hey, I need you to be a main player for me.

Well, and it was one step further. Later on, he, he. He let me be the first Air Force pilot to fly the thing. He didn't need to do that. He could have taken that. We were close enough in age that. But he wanted to take care of his boys, I guess, you know. But he was a tremendous leader.

Just an absolutely tremendous leader. Tremendous friend. And gave me an opportunity that then followed me, I think very, very, very few test pilots ever get the opportunity to be involved on a program from. I was there before critical design review and stayed until I retired. So I was the ops officer and then I moved up and I was the squadron commander. And then I retired in 2000 and came back in 05 as the Boeing test pilot on the program, as you mentioned. And then when, when JB left, our friend JB was the F22 chief test pilot for Lockheed. And then I took his place as the F22 Chief Test Pilot and did that until I retired in, what was it, 2021?

I think so, by the way, which is perfect. You mentioned jb so who. Just talking about James Brown. He was our former president until recently. Just retired as president of NTPS at age 70. Still flying fighter jets and testing and he's still on contract with us. He just hasn't had a chance to come back yet. But I'm going to be asking JB and his lovely wife Lisa to join me for the.

They'll be the next guests on the episode. So I'm. And JB said that'd be fine. So that'll be. This is, this is just perfect.

And I only did it because, you know, companies provide incentives to get older gentlemen or ladies, older people out of ejection seat cockpits because let's face it, I've tried to take care of myself through the years, but there is a higher risk that, I mean I stopped flying that airplane when I was 63 and a half. There's a higher risk of a 63 year old having some incident, whether it be heart related, whether it be a stroke, than say a 40 year old or even a 50 year old. So there are incentives out there for, for contractor guys to stop flying. So eventually I took that incentive and then I wound up at Stratolaunch with another previous F22 commander, Evan Thomas. Great guy, Ivan. And I spent a couple of years at Stratolaunch, as you mentioned, flying the largest wingspan airplane in the world.

It's amazing. I mean we see it from time to time. And the fact that you flew that is just super cool. And I mean it's doing hypersonic drops. And so I mean this is, the.

Company is really doing, you know, the first thing, it does look strange to people because they'll see the small Talon aircraft on this giant beast and wonder, why did you do that? Well, that was, it was a. Paul Allen, you know, the co founder of Microsoft. It was his dream. And his vision at the time was to launch something like a Pegasus to orbit and do orbital insertions. Paul Allen died. His family, I think paid for first Flight of Rock, we call it. And then another company, we had to find other funding and Stratolaunch already had plans for a hypersonic test vehicle. And what, what your listeners may not know is how important to national defense hypersonics is.

And Stratolaunch has done a fantastic job. An example, I'll just tell you one of my side projects. While I was on F22 with Boeing, I was the Boeing QF16 chief test pilot. So QF, that's a drone. It's a drone that we use full scale aerial target to shoot at, shoot missiles at from other airplanes. And in the process of trying to make that airplane land on its own was probably. I had an event that was probably the scaredest I've ever been in an airplane where it went full ass stick and idle power at about 60ft in the air. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Very, very scary. I survived it. And, but, but to give you an idea, that airplane still had all of its air data information. It was an F16 and it wasn't the F16's flight control system. That's another story. It was another issue that, that, that caused this, this problem.

How old were you at the time? Ish.

Golly. I don't know. Probably in my 50s. Wow. Mid-50s. I don't know.

Yeah. Big things happening to me in flight test at the. As I get older, they have more impact. Oh, they seem to last longer in my head than the ones that happened when I was younger. Sorry. Keep going.

You know, it's funny because that was, like I said, it was probably the scariest I've been, but I mean I've had, I've had the only dual engine flame out in an F22. Low to the ground, supersonic.

And you dead sticked it in?

Nope. They restarted so fast, I didn't know that's what it was. We didn't know that it was a dual engine flame out for a few days until we got the data and.

They auto restarted it.

Oh yeah.

Wow.

It's fantastic airplane.

Wow. Yeah. And I think that's the other thing.

That lets me feel good. It worked so well, I didn't have time to be scared.

Wow. Wow. I think that's the other thing to say is that, I mean, the F22, even today, in 2020, 2025, I mean, we're in, we're in the day of a much newer generation fighter with the F35. But the F22 is still a mighty machine. I mean it's.

Oh, it is the mightiest. Make no doubt about it, it is the air dominance fighter. The F35 is a strike fighter.

Yeah. I think the Raptor is so cool. I like the way it looks to say the least. I mean, it is a fighting machine and it is a cool Sexy looking aircraft and it's my baby. Yeah.

Yeah, I, I miss it dearly.

Yeah, I bet you do.

But you know, we, we, we move on, right? Yeah, but I think that what I was alluding to is the fact that hypersonics is very important to us. It will become more and more important and before you can do all of that, you have to know that you're all, your sensors, your widgets are all going to work at hypersonic speeds because as you know, aerodynamics changes when we're hypersonic, skin friction changes, you know, you've got some thermal issues, all sorts of issues. And a lot of the test vehicles out there for hypersonics are not reusable. They're basically missiles that push your, your test item to a hypersonic speed and then it's going to wind up in the ocean. Well, after, let's see, we dropped the first Talon we dropped, it was, didn't have a motor. It was just to see that we were going to have safe separation and that it would do what it, you know, the flight controls would do, what it's supposed to do. The one I dropped was the first one with the rocket motor. It also was planned to go into the, into the ocean.

And then the next one, guess what, it goes hypersonic and it lands on its own first time.

Oh, that's right.

I saw the Vandenberg. Vandenberg Space Force Base.

Yeah.

So what a, I'm just, you know, I'm, I'm kind of slapping my, my buddies at Stratolaunch on the back there. They, they did a great job and they're doing, they're doing great work for America.

Yeah, I saw the footage for that night.

It was great to be a part of that. And then National Test Pilot School, you know, through my years, that was, I kind of thought of it as the other test pilot school. Right. I know. We, you know, we had one Israeli in our, in our class at Pax river and there just aren't slots sufficient for foreign, foreign military.

I think, by the way, please mention, people probably don't know. I mean, how many test pilot schools are recognized by.

I believe it's seven. A grand total of seven in the world.

Yeah, seven. I think there's maybe eight.

Is that right?

Yeah, but we, well, we'll go with seven.

I didn't, I didn't prep for.

We can, we can talk about after. We can go. We'll go with seven.

And when he says recognize folks, what he means is so just like the, there's the AMA for Doctors. Right. American Medical association for test pilots. There's the Society of Experimental Test Pilots. I'm a past president and a fellow of the society, and I really believe in the Society. It was started back in the 50s when at Edwards they were losing pilots probably to the tune of one a quarter. And so the pilots got together informally and talked about lessons learned and how they could do flight tests safer. And that has grown into the society that it is today.

And then that society goes out and evaluates test pilot schools for their adequacy and recognizes them. And so that's what we're talking about. And if you want to get a job as a test pilot, you typically need to be a graduate of a test pilot school that's recognized by the Society of Experimental Test Pilots. And I want to mention the Society of Flight Test Engineers as well. Flight test engineers are a large, large part of our community. If I see myself as the captain of the ship, if you will, my job being safety of the airplane, then I have to think of my test conductor, who's a flight test engineer, as the admiral of the fleet.

Absolutely.

He's the guy guiding the thing. So both of those organizations go through recognizing test pilot schools.

Yeah. Excellent. I think. You know, and back to setp, which again. Yeah. The fact that you're a fellow and a past president is no small thing. I mean, the Society, I think at any given time worldwide in SCTP, we're about 2,000 active members, maybe 2,400.

It's been lots of ways, but around 2400 has been kind of the standard.

Yeah. And of our membership, I mean, there's different levels, but basically you have to be a graduate test pilot for the most part, and you have to have achieved a certain number of things in flight tests to move up in the organization. And then we've had. Or you've flown to a very high altitude, being you've probably gone to space. And we've had a lot of notable people as members, too.

Yeah. Now, and I do want to mention you don't have to be a graduate of a test pilot school.

Yeah. Thanks for correcting me.

You have to meet some certain criteria, and it is the easiest to meet that criteria being a graduate of a test pilot school. Yeah. But as you know, one of our other tenants at the. At the Mojave Air and Spaceport Scale Composites is an example. Very successful company. Yeah. They. They typically train within.

And they do a very good job. Doug Shane, previous, I think he was employee number one.

Wow.

A superior test pilot Currently, Brian Masler is an example, a friend of mine, absolutely superior test pilot and individual certainly has more first flights than I'll ever have. But the point is we see it as a profession. We see it as flight safety and discipline is a very, very important part of our, of our profession.

So, yeah, thanks for. Perfect. Maybe should we, can we roll into talking a little bit about caregiving for your dad?

Yeah. Oh, but let me just say.

Please do. Yeah.

So what I would, I'll wrap this up with the reason that I came over to Test Positive School. I had seen this as the, as I mentioned, that other school where foreign military could, that couldn't get in, you know, it just didn't have slots at Air Force and Navy Test Pilot School. So it was that other school. But over the past 10 years, I observed, even when I was president, I observed changes. I observed new things. And so I think for your listenership, it's probably important to point out that the National Test Pilot School was the first test pilot school to offer a master's degree. It was the first test pilot school to meet. So we have the Federal Aviation Administration here in the United States and in Europe there's easa, and we're the first test pilot school to become certified for EASA training.

And then the other thing that's kind of unique, National Test Pilot School teaches civil certification. Now, military schools don't think that's, you know, and you wouldn't, you wouldn't think that's very important because you're building military aircraft. I would put to you that now that we're doing things like making the 767A tanker, making the, the 737, the new P8 for the Navy, you're going to make changes to those airplanes, you're going to add systems. And it's becoming more and more important for those companies or the, or the military. Right. To understand at least the civil certification process. So we have a lot of stuff going on that other schools do not. We have some new innovations with our advanced flight controls.

We've made an investment in, as you know, in our variable stability simulations, in flight simulations, and we hope to do more of that. So I was very excited when I was offered the opportunity to come work with you guys because I see it as a way to pay back, number one, the flight test community. And number two, it's just an exciting place to be.

Yeah. And I'm glad you came work for us. And I think you summed up a whole bunch of stuff about ntps very well. And I find it a tremendously exciting place to be working at, and I feel it's a privilege to be there as a test pilot instructor, which I think is. It's not an easy job, but it's a cool job. And the amount of international students we have, amount of international staff we. Have you talked about EASA accreditation, faa, that we grant now two master's degrees. All the capabilities we have, in particular now with variable stability.

And we're reaching out in many different ways. And then we work with a lot of partners too, and it's. Yeah, I, I, well, we could talk all day about it, but of course, I'm a big time NTPS fan as well too, and I just think it's.

The coolest place, but, you know, the way it also ties back into caregiving.

Yeah.

I felt like I was missing that family that I felt like I had at F22, kind of a fighter squadron feel.

I, I, Please keep going. I, I've got this. Yes.

And, and I got invited to a couple of events of yours. JB invited me and I saw that again. And that additionally gave me some, some reason to want to come. And then Jeff Trang, our CEO.

Yeah.

Luca Campello, our, well, at the time, J.B. brown, our president. Yeah. Luca Campello, the, the president of Fri, which now he is the president of the, of ntps. What I got was tremendous, tremendous support.

Yeah.

Folks, you could write a country song about my life over the past couple of years. In addition to my father losing my father this past January and all that built up to that, I've not had a great couple of years. So I ended up having to have cervical spine surgery to have a disc removed and some fusion that was very difficult to, to recover from. And then literally a month after that, I found out that I had some melanoma. I am very, very fortunate in that it is not. They, they took care of it. I didn't have to have anything else done. But, you know, it, it's been, by the way, my, my medical has been approved.

So awesome. I'm shaking Steve's hand. It's fantastic.

But through all of that, in addition, my dad was, was getting ill. Yeah. And he was. In fact, both my sister and I had been there for his 90th birthday. We were planning a big deal for his 95th. And so for his 94th, I went and didn't go to SCTP, by the way, that year. And we were already at that point where, where things were deteriorating a little bit. We were worried about him, but we Weren't there.

He lives in Illinois. She lives in Minnesota. I live in California. So difficult.

He was in a facility or he was. No, he was at home with caregivers.

No, at the time, he was. He was just living by himself.

Oh, gosh.

Now, I. I had installed some cameras. Yeah, My sister got him a. It was called a bell. It's like. It's like a life alert. You push the button and. But, you know, he just.

He got to the point where he didn't want to wear that thing. Yeah, it would. If he would drop it on the couch sometimes that would alert, and they would call. And, you know, he wasn't fond of that. Yeah. I gave him a cell phone and asked him to keep it with him. But a lot of times, he'd leave it on his walker and then walk away. There was actually one time that he slipped and fell.

I couldn't see him in the cameras. He wasn't answering his phone. I got really worried. Gosh. And I am very, very, very, very, very fortunate. I have a cousin, and she's. She's my age. And she and her husband, they were kind enough.

They would always check on him for us. If I called, I could always count on them to go check on dad. And sure enough, they found him. He had fallen behind the chair, and he was able to somehow get the door unlocked. And then they were able to get in and help him up. But very fortunate to have that kind of support at home. And that went on for quite some time. And, you know, you think about things like when he was in his 80s, JK, you know, he would still travel then, and he would come see us.

He would go see my sister. And I remember there were a couple of times. The first time, I'd grab my beach bike and throw it on the back. We'd drive down to Venice Beach. I'd rent him a bicycle. And here he is in his 80s, and he's riding a bicycle down Venice Beach. And we'd stop at the German place, and we'd have some Wienerschnitzel and beer and just have a good old time. And the next time he came, he's a few years older, and I got him a trike, but we did the same thing.

And I always thought, well, we'll do this again. One time we went to San Diego, and my sister joined us, right? And just had a great time. He was stationed in San Diego in the Navy back in the Korean War for a while and loved San Diego. And we always thought, oh, yeah, we'll do this again and those agains didn't happen. So, you know, I urge everyone out there, cherish the time with those loved ones that are getting older because you don't have forever. You really don't.

So as his things you're talking about are so familiar to me.

Coming back to you.

Yeah. And what I dealt with my mother.

But it's, and it's things like, you know, he would try and do things record keeping the way that my mom did and I was trying to get him into the more modern way of doing it. So I, I, I bought him a computer and that was frustrating because he didn't like technology. I would spend literally hours sometimes, some, sometimes we'd get on the phone and I'd try and get him on FaceTime so that he could point at the computer so I could see what was going on and direct him. And it became very, I know I was not patient enough and I look back and I feel very bad about that. Right. That I, that I wasn't more patient with my dad. By the same token, when we would argue or have, in the end it was always a. He'd apologize for not listening closer, I'd apologize for being a jerk and we'd say how much we loved each other and press on.

So we had that very similar.

I still have guilt feelings to these days, to this day about times when I was impatient with my mom and went through very similar process with her.

You feel bad about it and there's just, there's nothing you can do to take it back other than knowing. Because we always tried to end it on a positive note. And I think that was very important to us. He ended up having to go to the hospital a number of times over the past couple of years and he'd have blockages where he couldn't, you know, couldn't continue.

I understand.

And it was, it was a challenge and he would, he would usually, you know, get released and come back home and, and that's fine. He ended up having a, a couple of incidents where he had to be in the hospital. They called us, my sister and I went to the, went, went home and they didn't think he was going to make it very long. They were concerned about his heart. They were concerned about a number of issues going on internally and, but he, he kept going. But in that particular case they, there's a weird part about Medicare. He was past the point where Medicare would pay for hospital, but he, he honestly couldn't be at home by himself, so he had to be sent to To a re Rehabilitation center is what they called it. Now what it really was was a wing of a nursing home.

Now, nursing home was a four letter word to my dad. He saw my mother's mother, my grandmother pass away and kind of really deteriorate while being in a nursing home. So he was afraid of nursing homes. And my sister and I promised him he would never have to be in a nursing home.

Same. My mother was terrified. And that's a whole separate story. And getting her into her nursing home eventually was very hard.

The hard part for us was when he was there. And it's difficult for them, I realize that, but they have so many patients. But it was not what I would consider to be particularly clean. They weren't particularly effective with him.

It was not a good nursing home.

It was probably the best we could find there because I looked around at several before we released him. But we were there constantly. One of us was there constantly. And you know, the school gave me that love, that time to be able to go do that. And I just can't thank them enough. I'm so appreciative.

And I'll just say that too, is that it's wonderful to work in a place where you have a family environment.

Yeah.

And certainly, you know, with my own personal things, there's been a couple of things. The school's been tremendously supportive. I mean, I was out with my back for a couple of months last year and you hit the nail on the head. We've got some wonderful leadership and we've got just a whole group of wonderful people there. And it's a pleasure to come to work, to know that you've got that support because you spend a lot of time at work.

It's an extended family. Yeah.

Yeah.

But when he. One time I showed up early in the morning and he wasn't in his room and I asked and they told me that, that he was in physical therapy. So I went to the physical therapy room and walked in and he was just kind of sitting there in the wheelchair and they were kind of frustrated and I, I said, hey, dad. And he looked at me and he said, who are you? Ah, I said, dad, it's. It's your son, Steve. Yeah. And he said, my son wouldn't leave me here. And, and it hurt, you know, and there were, you know, it wasn't full on dementia, but he had episodes of dementia that made, made it challenging.

Yeah. But he had good times as well. His, his demeanor would go back and forth, but you know, when you're in A, In a nursing home environment, it's, it's not really great. Luckily he had a good roommate that, that helped him. Gave him his chair. He had the better chair. Gave him his chair. But we needed to get him out of there.

And so we looked around and, and we found some sweet ladies, that one in particular that was in control and we hired her team. They ended up calling themselves Team Bob, by the way. And so they provided 20, pretty much 24 hour care for our dad at home. Yeah, we got him, we got him out of there, we got him home and then we got that established. We stayed there for a little bit longer and then we both left and kept in touch with them that way. I think I had one more visit with him and then my sister got a call he had to go back in the hospital and he was having some blockage of some bowel blockage or something and they were trying to deal with that and they told us he would be released. I think this was a Saturday. They said he'd be released Monday.

And then I got a call and the call was, no, you better get here now. And so my sister and I got there on Sunday and he.

He.

Wasn'T very, he wasn't responsive, he couldn't talk. And. But we were talking to him and we are convinced that when we would ask certain questions and hold his hand and ask him to squeeze our hand, we could feel a response, sometimes an eye blink, that kind of thing. And so, you know, we tried to express our love for him, we tried to express our appreciation, all of that. And unfortunately, we lost him on that Monday.

I'm so sorry, Steve. I believe in exactly what you're saying. In the last week of my mom's life, she wasn't conscious either. We just kept talking and singing to her. And I believe that they hear you, I really do.

I'm. I'm convinced of it. And you know, the. While the, when we got him home from the nursing home and before we got the, the ladies set up, things were challenging, you know, trying to ensure that we could get him up and down, get him to the restroom. He seemed to like his chair, recliner chair better than the bed. Although he did eventually do the bed. The, the next trip I took there, he was trying to use the bed a bit, all of those things, trying to move a person, trying to. And, and I, I'm not good at it.

And what I found out was, so the, the care team that we found, they had experience. One was a nurse, one had worked in nursing homes and they knew all the tricks and they were so kind because when he would have some of his episodes, maybe not as kind to them as he could have been, and yet they understood. They, they understood and they were very, very, very supportive. And in the end, you know, he, he, he let them know he was very appreciative of what they were doing for him, but it was just a very hard time.

Yeah, you've had a really tough year.

It has been a bad year.

You have had your share. Yeah.

Because then the next month I lost my dog.

Oh, yeah. I didn't know about that. Oh, gosh.

Well, he, he had several years ago, a couple of years ago, he had been diagnosed before he was five years old with lymphoma.

Yeah.

And we did the full blown cancer treatment and they told me I might get a year, maybe 18 months out of it and end up getting two years.

Wow. So what type of dog?

He was primarily German shepherd, but a mutt. He was a rescue dog, Max.

Not easy.

So, yeah, it's been a tough year.

Yeah.

And of course, losing dad was the worst part of all of that. Yeah. And I think, you know, my sister and I, for the longest time, we, we would talk about it and realize, I think we're both in denial. He can't be gone, you know, and, and oftentimes I would go back and listen because I, I would generally talk to him every day. It was, you know, calling him every day after work on the way home. And so, you know, I'd go back and listen to old. He might call me and I don't, I missed the call, maybe in a meeting or something like that. And it'd just be something simple like Steve is dad.

Give me a call when you can. And just to listen to that and hear his voice again, you know, was. Was important to me.

I did the same thing. I kept a number of my mother's voicemails. I talked to her every day for many, many years, for probably all my life. And very similar. And I share the same thing. Me and my sister, luckily now lives just down the road, an hour away in la. And I'm very close to her. And it's the same.

We still talk. It's been, I think, three and a half years talking about how we can't believe that our mom is gone. And I, I have that challenge every day. I just wrestle with believing that she's not here anymore. So I, I get it. You know, the other thing I want to sort of highlight on is your mention of the caregivers and their understanding and their patients with his dementia symptoms.

Absolutely outstanding people. Yeah.

That takes a very specially special person and especially trained person. I had caregivers at home from my mother who, as hard as they tried, they couldn't take it anymore. And there was a point where they walked off the job, and that's when I had to take over.

See, I was fortunate in that they were there. Even so, when he went in the hospital the last time, and I'm not going to mention any names because I don't know that they would want their.

Sure, yeah, I get it.

But such sweet ladies. But the amazing thing was the nurses on staff, I just remember one time they had to change him, change his sheets, all that, and they were having trouble maneuvering him, and she happened to be there at the time, and she instructed them on how to do it. That's how much experience she had. And the beauteous thing to me was these people understand we're doing this with my dad's savings to take care of him. And I remember he questioned. Oh, he questioned us about it. Hey, I had this amount of money, and now I don't. Right.

And I'm like, well, this is for your career. Because, you know, he was like, this money I saved for you guys. I worked hard to save this for you guys.

Yeah.

And, like. Yeah, and we appreciate it, dad. We really do. But. But, you know, what do you want to do? You know, it's. It's you. You. You know, you can't take care of yourself completely.

So it's. You know, and you don't want to go to a nursing home. I promised you you'd never have to do that. So it's. Come live with one of us or. Or have the ladies help you. And so I think he understood. But to have a team that loved him so much be there even in the hospital and correct the nurses on how to take care of this gentleman.

That meant a lot. It really did.

Yeah. And I understand these ladies got to know your dad very well. Right. Because I really believe, especially with dementia, that to be a good caregiver, you really have to know the person, and that's a big part of it. You were lucky that you got that. That's fantastic.

You know, and there were. I don't want to go into details, but there were more hospital trips between these. One, actually, in St. Louis, there were more dementia episodes. Some hurtful, until you. That's another thing you. You don't expect. You know, this is.

This is your hero. This is. This is the Person that throughout your life has been the most understanding person who has been your biggest fan. Right. And so you have to put that aside. And that took me. It took me longer than I expected. I, I, you know, I've never been.

I didn't expect to be that emotional. I didn't expect to. It to affect me like it did.

Yeah.

But. And, you know, thank God I had my. My sister, my wife to support me and. And, you know, keep me thinking the right way.

Yeah.

And my cousin. Yeah, my cousin, she was just so strong through all of this, and she. She wouldn't take any grief from him. She would. She would set him straight. And a lot of times that, that helped. That helped a lot. Her husband was, you know, if I couldn't be there and he had fallen, he was able to pick my dad up, and we could just count on him.

So having that support, it was really important for me and my sister. Even when we were there, having that support was important. And I can't imagine trying to do all of the caregiving by yourself without the support that we had from each other, from my cousin and her husband and from these caregivers that we were paying. And by the way, it was, you know, we looked online, we looked everywhere. JK. For caregivers, because we didn't know what to do. I had to get back to work. She had to get back to work.

Yes.

He's not on his deathbed, so we. We had to find someone. And we're looking everywhere.

Yeah.

And so expensive.

Yeah.

And to find these angels that end up being affordable, probably better than anything else we could find. And it was. It was. It was interesting how it happened. His roommate was actually younger than me, and he was there because he had gotten an infected thumb and just needed that care while he was getting the injections and all that. And it was actually one of his family members who he suggested meet my dad. And it turned out that this lady had also given support to one of her relatives. I don't remember how close, but that relative was a school friend of my dad's.

Wow.

And so that. That, I think, helped him trust her a little bit right from the. Right from the beginning. Wow. But just to have that connection, you know, it wasn't through any of the web searches that we were doing. It wasn't through the hospital. It wasn't through the nursing home. It was that unique connection that we found these caregivers that were absolute angels.

Wow. You're lucky.

Very much.

You were lucky. I did find a couple of caregivers but at one point they could only cover. It was about three days of the week, and the other four I had to do by myself 24 and 7. It was hard. But like you, I had a support network of people. And my sister, this was during COVID She was down in Miami. I was in Toronto with my mom. But I could still talk to my sister, which helped out.

But I just wanted to say some of the biggest support network I had were my closest friends and in particular my roommate from Royal Military College, from my cadet days that really stuck. And my ability to call them and vent and talk to them and have their verbal support and really, ultimately their love really helped me out tremendously. And they also shook me several times to give me perspective on how to deal with things.

Well, likewise. So JB and I have been friends for years and years and years, and JB was. He's a great guy. Not only was he there to talk to, constantly checking on me, he came out for my dad's funeral, and he had met my dad, I think, once.

That's jb.

So that's jb.

That's jb.

And then my, My. My best man, who I went to the Air Force Academy with, he was constantly checking on me. Another guy that I flew F4s with, constantly checking on me. My Wizzo from Ramstein days, that's a back weapons systems officer, the backseater, constantly checking on me. So, yeah, I had that. That additional support. Support team from, from my friends, from my work, from my. Yeah, you know, from my life that.

That were there to support me.

We should probably get to wrapping up, but one thing I want to talk about before we do, and this is what I consider really important on this podcast, is that, you know, I. I'm lucky to have guests like yourself. Again, Steve, such a privilege to have you here. We come from a background as testers, and certainly the view of the public is probably this way. Emotions and bearing your soul is not something normal in our industry.

Not at all.

You know, you just don't do that. So the ability to have somebody like yourself on here, and that's the message that I wanted to. To give is that. And I certainly believe very much being in control of your emotions and understanding them and being able to park them, and because of the business we do, you need to be clinical in what we do to be safe to a certain extent. But you're a person, and I think the ability to do what we do and then to come to a meeting like this, you and I, and talk about Something that's fairly. I mean, it's something so personal and to bear a bit of your soul. I think it shows strength, and I think it's. And it makes you a stronger person.

Anyways. All that to say that I appreciate you coming and bearing a bit of your soul.

You know, we didn't get into the nitty gritties. Maybe we don't need to. For your. For your listeners. What it really takes when you're changing a person and you're changing the sheets, when you're trying to move a person without hurting them.

Yeah.

And they can assist only so much.

Yeah.

And for me to imagine you doing that all on your own. I did have a support team, and my sister, she has some background in the medical field, and so she kind of took care of that part, made sure that all the medications, the listening to the doctors, making sure we were making the best decisions that we possibly could. I could trust her for that. I tried to do the financial part, make sure the bills were paid, the house was taken care of, the. The. You know, so we kind of divide and. Divide and conquered, if you will. And having that support, having the support from work, having my wife and kids support me, all of that was hugely important to me.

And although we ultimately lost him, he lived a good 94 years. He lived a good life. He was a good man. He was my hero.

He's still your hero.

Still my hero. My mom, my heroine, she was a wonderful mother. And it hurts every day to have lost them. But the other good part of that is remembering what a good family life we had. And so I guess where I'm trying to go with this is that the support that you can garner or have from your family, friends, whoever, you can get it, that's how you have the strength to carry on with whatever level you have to. You obviously had to go to a deeper level than I did. Could I have done that? I don't know. You never know until you actually are stuck in the situation of having to do it.

But it's the support that you get that gives you the strength to carry on and do what's necessary.

And. And you still were able to maintain your life and your amazing career, your home life, your marriage, your family. I'm sure there were tough times.

Absolutely.

But you're. It's still all together, still there.

And.

And I think that's another key message I like to get across to folks, because when you're stuck caregiving, it's everything.

Yeah.

And you wonder what you're. If you're going to lose your life. I don't mean your life literally, but what you're doing with life.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I, I think we'll wrap it up there. I just want to say again, Hooter, like a tremendous privileged to have you here in my house and talking on this level. You know, great for the listeners. From me to you, I can't thank you enough. I mean it sincerely. You've accomplished tremendous things in your life. You inspire me and you know, it's. It's a privilege to see you every day, shake your hand and start the day and, and I learned from you and I'm just very, very thankful to be in your company.

And thank you for coming here and bearing your soul. And I'll wrap it up by saying please go to the website again to finalapproachbook.com you can learn a little bit about the network there, the newsletter and about the book. And thank you for joining us. And thank you, Steve.

Thank you. Thank you, JK.