In this episode, I’m joined by Kristina Plattner, the managing director of Kamba Rainforest Experiences, a groundbreaking eco-tourism initiative deep in the heart of the Republic of Congo (ROC). Kristina shares her fascinating journey from growing up in the hospitality world of South Africa to creating immersive travel experiences in one of the world’s last great rainforests. Her passion for conservation, community engagement, and storytelling shines as we talk about how Kamba connects travelers with the lush, biodiverse environment of the Congo Basin—a region few tourists have explored but which holds incredible ecological and cultural significance. From tracking western lowland gorillas and forest elephants to collaborating with local guides and Ba’Aka communities, Kamba is all about meaningful, ethical, and unforgettable encounters.
We also dive into the realities of running a responsible tourism business in such a remote, logistically challenging region. Kristina discusses the balance between luxury and sustainability, the importance of respecting local traditions, and the vision for Kamba to become a leader in regenerative travel across Central Africa. Whether you’re a seasoned adventurer or dreaming of going off-grid for the first time, this episode will open your eyes to the beauty and potential of the Republic of Congo as a premier destination for nature and culture lovers alike. If you’re seeking untamed wilderness, rare wildlife encounters, and a chance to travel with purpose, this conversation will both inspire and inform.
We discuss:
✅ What makes Kamba Rainforest Experiences unique
✅ How Kristina fell in love with the Congo and transitioned from hospitality in South Africa to jungle adventures in the ROC
✅ Gorilla trekking, forest safaris, and cultural immersion with local communities
✅ The challenges and rewards of running an eco-tourism initiative in remote Central Africa
✅ Why the ROC is an off-the-beaten-path travel gem worth discovering now
🌍 Whether you're a curious traveller, conservation enthusiast, or looking to visit lesser-known destinations in Africa, this episode will inspire your next adventure.
Can you tell us how you are eco-friendly and sustainable and how you are also protecting the animals that you might see?
Tina Plattner (:
So I think because the whole idea was born to help protect the forests and I think just from that idea we tried to make it as eco-friendly as we can, as off-grid as we are. So we are running solar plants, we're obviously treating the sewage. We have a small footprint as possible, we only have six rooms per camp, all built out of natural timber, local timber actually, that is FSC certified so we make sure it comes from
proven logging concessions. And then we always say the first concession where everyone goes in Gaga, where the gorillas are, that's actually currently outside the park. So we trying to lobby with the government and together with the scientists that that becomes a protected area. And every guest who comes in and helps us and creates income for the communities by the park fees to pay, the community fees they pay, the taxes we pay to government, they actually indirectly help us lobby with the government to.
create this protected area and I think that in itself helps with the ecotourism and the sustainability. Then when we take guests to the gorillas we have very small groups. We only allow four guests per sighting plus a guide plus a tracker so that's half the size of the groups that you would see in Rwanda for example.
James Hammond (:
Do you love spontaneous adventures, travel tips and stories that will inspire you to pack up and go?
Well, welcome to the Winging It Travel Podcast. I'm James, your host, and each week I bring you travel tales, practical advice, and interviews with travelers from around the globe. Whether you're planning a big trip or just dreaming about one, you'll find everything from hidden gems to epic fails, because travel is not perfect, and that is what makes it beautiful. So grab your backpack and let's wing it. New episodes every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts, and on YouTube too. You can find Winging It and more fantastic
travel podcasts from around the world at voyescape.com. The link is in the show notes. Let's go and explore the world. Hello and welcome to this week's episode in which Christina Plattner, the managing director of Canberra African Rainforest Experiences, joins me. Canberra is located in the Republic of Congo and they offer eco-friendly experiences such as guerrilla trekking, guided walks in the rainforest, kayaking, nature walks, village visits, night drives, river cruises, dining and visits to Brazzaville.
and staying at Sangha Lodge. We'll talk about all those and how Canberra is looking to work with local communities to provide employment opportunities and build schools. We'll today also talk about Canberra's history, how the ROC is the last great wilderness and learn more about the country. Tina, welcome to the show. How are doing?
Tina Plattner (:
James, thanks for having me today.
James Hammond (:
No problems, tell the listeners where you're currently based. ⁓
Tina Plattner (:
am based in Cape Town at the moment. We're having a beautiful autumn afternoon with about 35 degrees outside. Celsius, not Fahrenheit.
James Hammond (:
Dreamy. wow, okay. I've just come back from the Arizona desert that was hit in mid-20s, but 30s sounds even better.
Tina Plattner (:
Really nice. ⁓
James Hammond (:
Okay, we're gonna go back a bit to the backstory of yourself. We'd love to hear about your previous travels and how you got into this area as well. So can you tell us where you initially grew up and what's traveled part of your life at Edo's?
Tina Plattner (:
I grew up in Germany, about 100km south of Frankfurt, where the big airport is, I think everyone knows that. And I spent all my schooling years there and then I moved to South Africa for a gap year after school and kind of got stuck here. But yes, my whole life as a toddler, really, I came to Cape Town the first time because my grandmother lived in Cape Town. Travelling was always part of my life. My parents used to go in a camper van to the coast. And so yes, I grew up traveling.
James Hammond (:
Well, campervan's the best... is it the best kind of travel? I don't know. I feel like it is.
Tina Plattner (:
I still think overlanding is definitely one of the best ways to travel, yes.
James Hammond (:
Yeah, you can't beat it just that freedom to drive wherever you want. ⁓ dreaming. Okay. And was there maybe a trip that maybe fueled a bit of interest, a proper interest in travel?
Tina Plattner (:
think my parents at quite a young age took me to the bush the first time, to Kruger Park. And that definitely triggered my interest in wildlife and the wild areas and the remote places. I would say that that has definitely influenced my love for the African continent and for the wilderness for sure.
James Hammond (:
and South Africa as a place to go to first and then stay, what was it like growing up?
Tina Plattner (:
I came here in my late teenage years and I loved it. Cape Town is probably the best city in the world. It's small enough to feel like a little village, but it's big enough to actually be a big city. So you have that perfect match of everything, the beaches, the mountain, the wine farms. I can only recommend it if you haven't been to Cape Town, it is the best city in the world.
James Hammond (:
think one of my good friends has just been there actually for a week and he absolutely loved it. He said he couldn't believe it. Yeah, trust me, it's on my list. I had another South African come on about six weeks ago and he's like, yeah, you've got to go. I was like, oh yeah, okay, it's on my list. The ever-growing list. So when you went for the late teenage years, that's quite an interesting time to go, isn't it? Because you're an adult, you probably have an idea maybe of what you want to do. So how do you compare that to maybe...
what you thought of travel in your pre-teenage years? Was there a difference in how you thought about it or you just thought it's one big adventure and we'll go where the wind goes?
Tina Plattner (:
So I definitely was a bit, I traveled a lot as a child with my parents and then as I moved to Cape Town, think that in itself, as you said, was such a big adventure that I actually stopped traveling for a bit. My most travel then was to get back home to Germany to see my family when I was on study leave. And then since then, when I stopped studying, obviously then the travel back bit again and then I started also reconnecting with my parents and started traveling with my mother more again, who was traveling through Africa a lot at the time.
and experiencing the rest of the continent. And I think that's how how this love then really got developed to see more than just South Africa and really see the rest of the continent.
James Hammond (:
Yeah, mean it's a huge consonant, isn't it?
Tina Plattner (:
It's amazing and so many different places to see and nice things to do. And yeah, I still, have like you, have this big tick list of places all over the world, but there are quite a few of them in Africa that I still have to go to and see.
James Hammond (:
Yeah, I mean, this might sound really bad, but I've been to every continent but Africa, right? I've, part of Antarctica, that's obviously a separate one, but it's just itching away at me. So I think next year is going to have to be the year where I take the leap. Yeah, the plunge, yeah.
Tina Plattner (:
Take the plunge into.
Don't even come straight to Congo, skip Cape Town. Really?
James Hammond (:
That would bold move, that would be great. That would be quite a good adventure, I think.
Tina Plattner (:
I'm sorry, it's not as dangerous and dark as you think.
James Hammond (:
Yes, we'll come on to that in a bit. That's part of the conversation today. I just want to touch as well. You must have gone to Europe quite a bit maybe, been based in Germany when you grew up there, Yes.
Tina Plattner (:
Exactly. spend a lot of time, Spain, Italy, France, Scandinavia. I loved Scandinavia as a child. had my parents with a sailing boat. So we spend a lot of time in the Baltic traveling around. think that's just, that's just a camper van on the water. Isn't it?
James Hammond (:
Yes.
Tina Plattner (:
I water sports, water sports, family sailing and kite surfing and all those types of things. So definitely a lot of travel in, in Europe. then later on, obviously down Croatia, all that coast. No, Europe has amazing and beautiful spots too, for sure. Funny enough, and less every year. I ⁓ still go back.
James Hammond (:
Did miss it?
Tina Plattner (:
every now and then and I like the traveling in Europe but I don't miss Germany so much anymore. doesn't feel like home anymore. South Africa and especially Cape Town has definitely become home.
James Hammond (:
Okay, that's an interesting conversation because I've moved from England, right? I've lived in England for about 10 years. And does it feel home anymore? I'm not sure. When I I ride back to Vancouver and you sort of see the lights and you think, is this my place? You just don't know do you? there's the historic conflict between where you grew up and those memories, but then where you go to as an adult. It's like, Oh, I don't know.
Tina Plattner (:
I still had it quite strongly when I lived in South Africa for 10 years and to longer live here. think I'm coming up on 25 years now or something. It definitely that feeling for the original home I find goes away a bit. I'll always be German. My culture will always be German. when you see me, they're like, oh, you're so German. But I really still feel at home in Germany now. I go back now and actually feel like a bit of a stranger. I feel like I don't really fit in anymore.
James Hammond (:
Bye.
But you have the South African accent though, so that's quite an interesting development.
Like, if you went to England, they'd be like, yeah, she's so African. Like, you can tell, you can hear it.
Tina Plattner (:
Well, I have definitely lived here for a while.
James Hammond (:
Yeah, so that makes sense. And we're going to go into Canberra as well. tell us a bit of history about Canberra, how it started and where we are today.
Tina Plattner (:
So, Kamba was founded by my mother, who traveled to the Republic of Congo, which is not to be mistaken for the Democratic Republic of Congo, the first time in 2007. She at the time had partnered with an organization called Leadership for Conservation in Africa, and they were looking for private investors to help protect the parks all over Africa. And they took her to all kinds of countries, Malawi and Zimbabwe and over.
ended up taking her to the Congo, put her on one of those dugout canoes in the park and pedaled her up the river for two days. And she always tells us a story that all they had with them were live chickens and a metal drum, because that was the best way to keep them fresh, and peanuts. And that's how they traveled through this park. And she at some point turned around to the person behind her and said, you know, I grew up in the Black Forest in Germany.
p protect it. And that was in:
get APN involved at the time, the park manager now, African Parks, so that they get agreement with the government so that we could start operating in the park. And my mother is originally a school teacher. So she actually started with educational projects around the park. She started building a preschool and wanted to get into the village like that. Then she met Magda Bermejo, the local primatologist, who needed funding for her research. She habituated most of gorillas that we have access to now.
So she got involved with Magda. And then people said, well Sabine, no matter what you do here, you can educate people as much as you want. There is illegal gold mining and logging and bushmeat hunting. That is how people make money out here. You need to create employment. And that's how the tourism idea came about. So that's how Camba African Rainforest Experiences was born. We now operate three camps in Nutsala National Park. And each camp has had six rooms and 12 guests max.
x and they've been open since:
James Hammond (:
Amazing. And we are going to go into more of those details. But first, I think we should discuss the Republic of Congo. people listening probably think it's the other Congo, which is the Democratic Republic of Congo, right? Is that how it's? That's DROC, right?
Tina Plattner (:
of Congo, Democratic Republic of Congo, yeah.
James Hammond (:
Yes, so tell us if you know just the history of that and location wise in Africa and the difference between the two and I know Brazzaville is the capital republic of Congo where Canberra is based so just give the listener an idea that these are two separate countries.
Tina Plattner (:
Completely separate country. So yeah, we always call it the tale of the two Congos. So there used to be a Belgium colony called Zaïr, which is now the democratic Republic of the Congo. And there used to be a French colony, which was, I think, called the French Congo at the time, which is now the Republic of Congo.
which is a much smaller country than the Democratic Republic of Congo. And usually all the trouble we hear about, all the rich minerals, the rebel warfare, the M23, those conflicts, they are all based in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Just to give a few numbers, the Republic of Congo has about 6 million inhabitants altogether, the entire country. Kinshasa, the capital of the DRC, has 18 million inhabitants.
So just the capital is three times the size to the Republic of Congo, just in population size. Then also people always ask us about the conflict in Goma. And Goma is, if you are gorilla tracking in Rwanda, Goma is 50 or 60 kilometers from where do you gorilla track in the Volcanoes National Park. It's basically on the border to Rwanda. We are 1,600 kilometers.
away from that to the Congo River. So we are on a completely different side, way more Western side of this conflict. There's the big Congo River separating Kinshasa and Brazzaville. The two capitals actually look at each other across the river, but the river really has a big border because there are no bridges across the river at the moment. So you can really only cross it by boat. So yes, we always say we are just small and peaceful and friendly Congo.
And we, for example, at Canberra, we are all female leadership team. We go to the restaurants and bros alone in the evenings. We walk in the roads, we go to the bars, we take the taxis. It is a really friendly and helpful country.
James Hammond (:
Is there a relationship between the two countries? Is it cordial? Are they like brothers in arms? How is that relationship?
Tina Plattner (:
So there definitely is a friendship. They speak the same language. They mostly speak Ikongo or Lingala. So it is definitely that overlap. I think at least in Kinshasa and Brazzaville, people seem to be related across the river. Like people have moved from one side of the river to the other. Then obviously the DLC is so big, like in the North it borders onto think Sudan at some point in the South that comes all the way down to Zambia. So you have... ⁓
way more different tribes in the DRC that makes it, think, very many different languages and a very big country to keep together. While in Brazzaville, people mostly speak E-Congo in the south and Lingala in the north. So where we are, it's Lingala spoken. So there's also the tribal differences, but they're not as pronounced as they are in the DRC. But are the people across the river friendly with each other? Yes, they are.
James Hammond (:
Okay, and for the ROC, can you tell listeners where Canberra is based in terms of the country? Which part of the country are you based in? also, I guess you would probably fly into Brazzaville, I'd imagine, and then work from there.
Tina Plattner (:
So yes, when people come to visit us, so the easiest way from the US and from Europe is on Air France. They fly nearly daily from Paris directly to Brazzaville. Another option is to come in on Ethiopian Airways. They also fly daily into Brazzaville. And then from there, we have a charter plane that takes people up to the park. It's about a 90 minute flight. And the park is I think about 800 Ks north of...
Brazzaville, northwest of Brazzaville. So it's a pretty easy, it's a pretty easy flight and our plane always goes on a Monday and a Thursday. It's a little two engine propeller plane that takes people up.
James Hammond (:
I love those sort of planes. I'm a bit of a aircraft geek a little bit. Love that sort of stuff. So we covered the ROC in terms of what its population in capital city and you mentioned it's safe as well. Geography and topography as well. So you operate in a national park. Can you tell us about the national park that you're operating?
Tina Plattner (:
So it's called the Otsala Kukua National Park. It's one of a multitude of parks in the Congo. The Congo is actually quite good. It's got quite a few big parks. Just to give a bit of size, Otsala, the park itself is about the size of the entire country of Rwanda. So it is a massive park. And they are currently only 70 kilometers off road in the park. Död road, road. So 70 kilometers of road in a park the size of Rwanda.
And these roads really only connect from the village to two of our camps and to the little airstrip we have. When the park rangers go in, everything else is done on foot and by boat. So even the patrolling of the park ⁓ is all done either by boat or on foot, which makes it such an amazing wilderness. It is really one of the last undiscovered places that travelers can still go to.
James Hammond (:
Do you think they will build more roads or keep it as it is?
Tina Plattner (:
I think the plan currently is to not put more roads in the park because obviously roads always have a plus and a minus. The positive of a road is you can potentially get more operators in. can do things in the park easier, but they also always make access for potential poachers easier. And obviously I think we've learned over the years also that
We want to keep these ecosystems as pristine as possible. The park has a lot of forest, a lot of swamplands, so it's not actually that easy to build roads in it either. understand from park management, from African parks at the moment, is that they're not really planning to put an extensive road network into it. Maybe a few connections here and there to access certain points, but I don't think they're planning a massive road network into the park.
James Hammond (:
Okay, and what's the wildlife in the park? mean, endless question really, but like what's the big, big ones that people know?
Tina Plattner (:
Obviously the ones that people mostly come for are the Western lowland gorillas. They're estimating that they're between 18 to 25,000 in the park. Large numbers still, but still a critically endangered species because of the habitat loss in the Congo basin at the moment. So gorillas, have forest elephants, they're slightly smaller than...
James Hammond (:
A lot? Sounds like a lot. Yeah.
Tina Plattner (:
the savanna elephants, have chimpanzees, have all kinds, I think 17 type of primates, we have all kinds of reptiles, birds, flying squirrels, but the bigger hyenas, leopards, all those. I think the biggest difference to the savanna is because it's a forest, you're actually coming into a forest, is that the density of animals isn't as high as in the savanna. So it is not.
like in Cougar Park or Tanzania where you can drive around with a car and there's a herd of elephant and then there's a ⁓ leopard and then you see a pride of lions or something. It is, really have to work for your sightings a little bit more just because the animals can hide in the forest so easily. So you really come in and you get tracking experience and because there's so little road we do everything on foot or most things on foot about road.
So you really get that explorer feeling. You're out there walking through the forest. When you see an elephant, you've worked for that elephant and you also have such a more direct and emotional connection with them because you are on foot and they are on foot. So the way how you meet the animals is very, different than it is if you're driving around in a car.
James Hammond (:
Okay, so how would a typical camber package look like? That'd be like bit of obviously staying in a lodge, a bit of driving, but obviously by the sounds of it, a bit of trekking, a of walking and to go and try and find some wildlife, I'd assume.
Tina Plattner (:
So we usually have our guests start at N'Gaga Lodge. And N'Gaga Lodge is in the center of one of the areas with the highest gorilla ⁓ population in the world. We have a really a big gorilla density on that concession. And then guests leave in the morning and they go gorilla tracking with a tracker. And a big difference to, for example, Rwanda is that the tracker hasn't been out before to find the gorillas. So you really, as a guest, go out with a tracker.
go back to where they last saw the gorillas the night before, and then from there, you start searching for the gorillas until you find them, and then you get your gorilla viewing. That happens at Ngaga, and we usually have two or three gorilla tracks included in the packages we sell. And then in the evenings, people can do night drive safaris. It's quite nice to see bush babies or the flying squirrels, other animals that one can potentially see at night. And then from there, people go...
back to the, close to the river where we actually start kayaking. And the next lodge, you kayak for about an hour down a river. And you sometimes have wildlife sightings on the river, like elephants or a lot of the primates, about in the trees. When the river gets shallow, you put the kayaks aside and you walk with your guide to the lodge. And it's about another two hour walk through Swamp Land to get to the lodge. And you often meet buffalo or elephants on those walks into the lodge. And we all say, we don't know another lodge in the world where you actually arrive, or at least not.
in that part of Africa, we arrive on foot into the lodge. the luggage is taken care of by the staff and you arrive on foot into the lodge. then at that lodge, that's exactly what you end up doing. You walk a lot through the forest and you really experience the forest and the animals by walking through it.
James Hammond (:
sounds like a incredible adventure. And the only thing I think I've done anything close to that was in Borneo. We did a, it's rainforest, right? So we did this camp for two nights and that is you go on a boat for two hours. You arrive at this camp in the middle of nowhere. There's no infrastructure really, you're staying in huts and you do like night walks and night boat rides and you kind of look out for the crocodiles and stuff. And it was just like, it was incredible experience. So it sounds like for this in Canberra that you do really have
What I quite like about it is that you are in nature more. You seem to be in your surroundings more. You're not just like have a one particular goal, but you could walk around and see like an amazing plant or you can see another animal you don't expect. So it's more like that sort of adventure.
Tina Plattner (:
Exactly. It's a lot not just about seeing big game. It is really about learning more about the ecosystem, learning about the forests and how these forests work and why they're so important for the world and for the climate and the biodiversity, why the biodiversity is so important. And like you say, there's so much to learn about the trees of the rainforest and the plants and the small one. And you walk through streams, you can see all these beautiful little fish and you can listen to the frogs and try and locate them. So it is really connect.
connecting with that. And we had an architect called Bill Bensley out a few years ago. when he started walking through the swamps and the water, he said, wow, this place is amazing. It brings my inner child out again. I just want to put my gumboots on and jump up and down in the street. And that really is what it is. In the beginning, people are often a little bit like, hmm, do I really want to do this? And then you start walking in the forest and you start walking in the streams.
And then it really becomes this, yes, can I get more of this? This is so much fun. I haven't done this since I was a young child.
James Hammond (:
So cool, do you have to have like a certain level of fitness as well to do this?
Tina Plattner (:
So we usually ask people to give us a health form so that we know that they can walk five kilometers quite easily. Not that we ever make anyone walk five kilometers, but we need to know that people are relatively good on. Especially when you go to the gorillas, for example, we don't have the option, I can run that you can potentially get carried out. You have to get yourself back out of the forest. And cause some of the walking is definitely in wetlands. You need to be able to,
pick your feet up properly. So here's a do suggested that you have a basic walking fitness, but you don't have to be somebody who can run a 10 K or something. You know, it's, we are not at altitude like the gorilla tracking in Rwanda is at altitude. So we don't have that. then cause we're the only operator who has access to gorillas at the moment. There's also the paths are not as trampled as they are, for example, in Rwanda. So it's a lot easier to walk on them.
But yes, is while you're tracking and searching for them, you sometimes lucky and you find them after 20 minutes, but sometimes you do look for them for an hour or 90 minutes.
James Hammond (:
Okay, and I'm going to go a few admin questions here a little bit. guess the footwear and your clothes have to be good enough to survive this sort of conditions, right? So what do you advise for people in terms of footwear and what they should be wearing?
Tina Plattner (:
So we usually actually recommend water shoes. Don't come in heavy hiking boots because you often need deep in water and hiking boots just get really, really heavy if you're that deep in water. So we often recommend your water shoes and for ladies yoga pads. Bring your Lululemon. They are perfect for the forest. They are lightweight. You can carry them well. They dry quickly. know, the stuff will get wet. We're in a rainforest. They're dry quickly.
Yes, if you want to bring your khaki colored safari pants, they're also really welcome, but light wearing, easy to put on. We do recommend long sleeves and ⁓ long legs just because of insects and obviously branches. You're through the forest. You don't want to scratch yourself anyway, but yeah, it doesn't need to be any fancy functional way in that sense.
James Hammond (:
Okay, and what about like medication? Is there threat of malaria or any certain vaccinations that people would need?
Tina Plattner (:
So the country requires a yellow fever vaccine. We still require for the gorillas, that's Gorilla Protocol COVID vaccines, because the gorillas are very susceptible to human diseases. So COVID vaccines, measles vaccines, we usually ask for them upfront, because our researchers ask for them, because they say the gorillas are just so, so prone to human diseases that we really have to keep them safe. And yes, I would recommend malaria prophylaxis. It is definitely a malaria area. Yes.
ask because there's so much walking in water, if there are any waterborne diseases. And no, we have no leeches in the waters where we walk and we also don't have bilhazia in the water. It's all running water, it's not standing water. So it's quite safe to walk waterway.
James Hammond (:
Right,
that makes sense because I've got this image of the Congo Basin being like this swamp and you have no idea what's in there, where it's coming from. Okay, that's good to know. Okay, I'm going to touch on the sort of eco-friendly portion of the talk. So can you tell us how you are eco-friendly and sustainable and how you are also protecting the animals that you might see?
Tina Plattner (:
So I think because the whole idea was born to help protect the forests. And I think just from that idea, we tried to make it as eco-friendly as we can, as off-grid as we are. So we are running solar plants. We're obviously treating the sewage. We have as small footprint as possible. We only have six rooms per camp, all built out of natural timber, local timber, actually.
that is FSC certified, so we really make sure it comes from proven logging concessions. And then we always say the first concession where everyone goes in Gaga, where the gorillas are, that's actually currently outside the park. So we trying to lobby with the government and together with the scientists that that becomes a protected area. And every guest who comes in and helps us and creates income for the communities by the park fees to pay, the community fees, they pay the taxes we pay to government.
They actually indirectly help us lobby with the government to create this protected area. And I think that in itself helps with the ecotourism and the sustainability. Then when we take guests to the gorillas, we have very small groups. We only allow four guests per sighting, plus a guide, plus a tracker. So that's half the size of the groups that you would see in Rwanda, for example. We have very strict
that guests aren't allowed closer than eight meters to the gorillas. It is really an observing experience. It's not an interacting experience. Everyone has to wear face masks. The trackers are often local by Aka people or people from the local villages who've grown up in these forests. So they have this way of they're taught the gorillas, for example, they use little clippers to snip leaves in the forest to make the gorillas feel calm. So when we come close or the guests come close,
The gorillas know, this is Gabin, the tracker I know, because I can hear, by the way, how he clips with the scissors, that that is him. So to really make sure this is not some random strangers, this is a friend approaching who's coming and who's respecting them. And then the viewings are usually just an hour. So if the gorillas move away, we start the viewing. And then if the guests lose the sighting, the tracker stops the time, reestablishes the sighting, and then starts the time again.
me to Congo the first time in:
I worked on the building site for 10 weeks and I didn't see a single elephant during that entire trip. There was big hunting pressure on them in the park and they would hear or smell a human and they would be gone. And now actually with us bringing in more tourists and the guides having a very good approach with the elephants of how far they stay away, that they're always ⁓ taking the wind direction into account that they're always.
downwind from the elephants so the elephants don't smell them. We now have amazing sightings on foot and the elephants are actually getting less and less scared, which is to me also a nice, nice sign that they're actually starting to trust us a little bit more with how we interacting with them, which I think is also showing that the way we are doing it is right and giving them time and space is correct.
James Hammond (:
Heya, just a quick one. I just want to say there are many ways to support this podcast. You can buy me a coffee and help support the podcast with $5. Or you can go to my merch store with the affiliate link with TeePublic where there's plenty of merch available to buy such as t-shirts, jumpers, hoodies and also some children's clothing. Thirdly, which is free, you can also rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Podchaser or Goodpods.
Also, you can find me on social media on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and TikTok. Simply just search for Winging It Travel Podcast and you'll find me displaying all my social media content for traveling, podcast and other stuff. Thank you. Yeah, because this poaching is still a big problem in the area.
Tina Plattner (:
So poaching, I struggle a bit with the word poaching sometimes. Yes. Is there a bit of elephant poaching in the park? Yes. But what we do have, the locals are allowed to hunt in a buffer zone outside the park. So there there are hunter gatherer communities. So it is legal for them to go out and net hunt, for example, they're just in bow and arrow hunt. They're just not allowed to hunt with guns or snakes.
So you would see that some animals like little monkeys are often quite scared of humans because they know they probably have lost somebody in the monkey family to a hunter potentially. The elephant hunting has improved a lot over the last 15 years. Again, park management has done incredibly in that regard by catching people, getting them into court and the courts, actually the Congolese courts have been really good in trialing people and putting them into jail.
for poaching, there is definitely an improvement that we can see and we can very clearly see it in the behavior of the animals on the ground.
James Hammond (:
Okay, and these experiences, how have they affected local communities? Because I guess you are pumping money into communities, you might be building schools, like I mentioned in the intro. So how has that been impacted by your experiences and people paying to come and see this? How much of that goes into the community and make sure that they are rewarded fairly?
Tina Plattner (:
So obviously 80 % of our staff, for example, is from the local village. and I think you could, similar to South Africa, probably each staff member feeds a family of between four and eight people, depending on how big the families are. So that in itself already, is a, one can see that the village has developed over the last 10 years. More and people have solar panels on their huts and there's a nice well point now for fresh water and those things. There's.
Obviously the schools are being built, the park does a lot. They're now starting to push into having a secondary economy. Like we're starting to buy our vegetables from the village instead of bringing them in by car or by plane. There's actually some local produce being grown, which is really, really nice. Then we have a little village called Ombo quite close by and we've now employed quite a few of those villages and we call them the guardians of the forest.
They patrol the forest during the day and during the night and look for snares or tell us when they heard gunshots in certain areas to make sure that this area that we want to protect in the future, which is outside the park, is actually protected already. It's not officially conservation land or protected land yet, but they making sure that their ancestral land is looked after and kept safe. they're obviously, that's also a very job. And then the researcher and the educational teams.
They're obviously talking to everyone, training everyone, said, you know, you're sitting on something very special here. Yes, to you, the elephants are nuisances because they come into your crops. And now the park to build a fence around the village to keep the crops safe. But there's also money to be earned in these elephants. know, the tourists come here to see the elephants, to see the gorilla. So I think that knowledge and understanding is growing that the forest is something very special and needs to be.
looked after, only from their own resourcing point of view, that all their food comes from these, but that there's really more value to it than that. And we've also started a guiding academy. So we now have our first Congolese wildlife guide who was trained at Cumber, who's now qualified as a junior guide and takes tourists out into the forest himself. And we've had a new intake of trainees now in March. starting in April.
So that's another way of just creating different types of employment and we run hospitality training every year. And then also some people even go to other places, but that's exactly what we want because we want that knowledge to spread throughout not only the Congo, but the entire Congo basin that really does awareness of the wealth of these forests gets spread.
James Hammond (:
That's amazing about how you start to build in these youngsters, I guess, coming in to be like a completely new type of job experience. It must be pretty incredible that you must see maybe like more in the future because you just started it, but you must be able to see the rewards of like investing in the local community coming through and that they get to do something that's pretty amazing with their local area. That's pretty cool.
Tina Plattner (:
For me, the most rewarding part of the job is the human side of it. Like seeing Glanz now, the wildlife guide who proudly takes tourists around. He has a knowledge about fungi in the forest that I have never seen in anyone. He loves hearing it. We now have a staff member who joined us as a waiter and then told us his story. He's become, he started to study medicine and he might be one of the first medical doctors.
once he finished, and to come out of the village and, and all those, those are really the stories that I feel like end up changing things. So those are the things when I go that make me really, really, really happy is to see those changes.
James Hammond (:
Yeah, that's incredible. And if you invest in one of these tours, it's quite nice to know it's going to something like that. And it's not just a transaction. And that kind of brings me to
Tina Plattner (:
So that's where travel has moved to a little bit, right? think, I they don't want to come and just have a good experience anymore. They want to come actually with a feeling of that, of they're giving back and with their travel, they're actually making a difference. don't want to have a, what was it called? Did I see the other day? They don't want a low impact travel. They want a positive impact travel. Yes. So true, really come and make a difference. And I think Congo is one of those places where one can still really do that.
James Hammond (:
think COVID was the breaking point. think up until that point, if you take your mind back, it really was crazy. It was out of control, I think. Over tourism was out of control. The whole tourism sector were just people, people, people, money, money, money. We had the break and now people are reassessing because COVID was a thing. Like, oh, how do we do stuff that's actually a bit more ethical, maybe a bit more, even like it helps you like mentally in terms of I'm actually investing in a community or.
helping someone rather than just experiencing. think people need those wholesome experiences, I think now.
Tina Plattner (:
I fully agree with you. think we all realized during COVID that we need to reconnect with the planet in a different way and with humanity in a different way. And I think that's exactly where this type of travel comes from now. It makes you slow down, it makes you reconnect, it makes you give back. And I think that's what we can really offer at Cumber. Walking through the forest and not driving or rushing makes you slow down so much and suddenly realize what's important for you and what's maybe important for others.
And then the interactions with the local communities, with the animals, with the forest definitely gives you back that feeling of, wow, know, this planet is big and massive and we are just one small part of it, but each one of us is a cog in the system and that's how it runs.
James Hammond (:
Yeah, that's awesome. Okay. People gonna know budget, what sort of budget is needed for these experiences to book for with Canberra? Like, can you give us like a mid low or high range?
Tina Plattner (:
So the seven nights stay including two gorilla tracks and the stays include everything from when you land in Brazzaville, a night in Brazzaville, a Sapur experience, the local flight from Brazzaville to the park, the rooms and then all food and bath besides the very exclusive drinks, the gorilla permits, everything included is for seven days, $15,000. The only thing you have to book on top of it is your international flight.
James Hammond (:
Okay, and for people who think about logistics, we mentioned a little bit before, they book their flights separately. They come into Brazzaville, but from Brazzaville until they leave on their flight, they're all taken care of from those seven, 10 days,
Tina Plattner (:
We take ⁓ care of everything. So we apply for the original paperwork that guests need to apply for their visas. And then once they land into the country, our guest relations, meet people at immigrations, help them with the luggage out of the airport, transfer them to the hotel, help them through a hotel. And then guests are different. Some people want to go and explore the city. Then we're happy to do that. And other people are like, no, they rather want to stay by the hotel and swim. And then we take them to the airport the next day, put them on a charter flight. So yes, we can basically...
We look after people from the second they arrive in Brazzaville to the moment they leave Brazzaville again. And the booking service is as simple to animat our reservation is she will you email us, she'll get back to you. And then basically once you get the quote, it has everything included besides the international flights. it's a one stop.
James Hammond (:
Okay, and what is the website for people to check out to?
Tina Plattner (:
www.kumbaafrica.com
James Hammond (:
Okay, that's great. I think people might also ask the question I got on my list here. Like, why should they choose you? Because I think we all know Rwanda, think even Uganda does greater tracking as well. And you guys obviously do it. So I guess people might be thinking they hear, put it on podcasts or on blogs, like, who should I choose? So like, what is your pitch to say why they should choose you?
Tina Plattner (:
So I think the one is that we are potentially lower impact. are less discovered. again, as I said before, we only have four guests go out per gorilla group, not six or eight like in some other destinations. It's a different type of gorilla. It's the Western lowland gorilla, not the mountain gorilla. And I think we are about so much more than just the gorilla tracking. I always say to people, if you want to decide you want to go to the Amazon or you want to go and see gorillas and you only have one budget, you can combine the two.
and come to Cumber and have a gorilla experience and a rainforest experience in a single package.
James Hammond (:
Great, okay. I've got some ROC quickfire questions actually, because I know we started with the conversation with ROC, but people like to know just quick things. Like maybe can you tell a dish or two that in ROC people eat that's really good? Like a good dish, a bit of food.
Tina Plattner (:
So there is very good seafood. the Congolese food is obviously was a French colony for a long time. So it's a little bit French inspired, but there a lot of local leaves. So cassava is obviously a very typical thing. then sacca sacca, which is a local spinach that's made really nicely. Chicken often gets served in a nice, like a peri-peri type of sauce, which is really nice. Peanut sauce, peanuts with a lot of things and different makes of peanuts.
Then we get plantain chips, so those big bananas that one can either fry up or make chips out of or make banana mash out of. And then yes, good seafood. There was really good local fish that comes out of the river that gets steamed in banana leaves and then gets served the side dishes of, for example, the banana chips and the sakasaka and the cassava. Oh, my mouth is starting watering. I talking about it.
James Hammond (:
Sounds incredible. Okay. Is there a drink? Is the coffee good? Like what's the drink scene like?
Tina Plattner (:
So there is obviously French and Brazzaville, yes, you do get good coffee. And there is a local drink called the Compaq, which is a mix of Campari and palm wine, which is what the local ministers drink. It's quite potent. Watch out when you drink it the first time, give yourself a bit of a break after the first one and then see how it hits you. But it's very tasty. And that's definitely one of the local favorites. Then there is a local beer that's brewed locally. It's called Ngoki.
And in Gork is the crocodile, so it's the crocodile beer. So when you come to Brazzaville the first time, you'll see these big green quartz bottles with the crocodile on the label. It's a very good local beer.
James Hammond (:
Okay, sounds great. And imagine someone's coming to Canberra but maybe has a week either side before or after the trip. Is there other areas in the Republic of where they can go to which is worth seeing that's kind of outside of the sort of rainforest trekking sphere?
Tina Plattner (:
So there's obviously Point Na at the beach, a lovely Atlantic beach with a city on the beach with warm Atlantic water. There's savanna places in the Congo. You can obviously come down to Brazzaville. I think the Congo River in itself is very impressive and steady. Look at the rapids. One can easily spend two days in Brazzaville.
There's then African parks, actually has a lodge called Imbalanga just on the other side of the park. That's quite interesting to go to see other things. There's a park called Imbalandoki up in the north. They have some interesting wildlife viewings. And then there's Konkwati also on the coast, which I think they have also just started putting up tourism accommodation. So there are a few places that one can combine it with quite nicely if one wants to spend some more time in the Congo.
And I definitely, if I take a plateau, so if I wanted to drive from Brazzaville to Odzala, that plateau is quite interesting too, to see. The big Savannah Plateau.
James Hammond (:
So a nice mix of coastal potential, obviously the rainforest and the jungle and et cetera, and then also the cities as well. So I think it's a nice little round the trip there.
Tina Plattner (:
Exactly. That's if one wants to stay in Congo, we also recommend sometimes there is a direct flight from Casablanca to Brazzaville twice a week. So one could also do a week in Morocco and a week in Congo if one wants to have a bit of a mix of desert and rainforest. I think that could be quite an interesting one. And obviously if one connects through Ethiopia, one could do...
Tanzania and Congo, then kind of all options open up because Addis Ababa is such a baby airport and connects to about anywhere we were in Africa.
James Hammond (:
And can people go via land border, like south for example?
Tina Plattner (:
Yes, people overland in the Congo and then some people, there's a little stretch of DRC and then one is actually in Angola. And we've definitely had people who've overlanded down from the Congo into South Africa or basically from the north into the Congo. So that is possible. The only thing that is sometimes a bit weary is that stretch of the DRC one has to go because it's Congo, then there's a little bit of Angola, DRC and then Angola again. there is, if one goes from
The Republic of Congo to that little part of Angola, can take a ferry if one doesn't want to go by car through the DRC. But there is definitely more and more overlanding happening on that West coast of Africa.
James Hammond (:
Amazing. Okay. I do like to talk, also talk about budget as a whole for the country. Is it a fairly budget friendly place to travel outside of the experiences that, you know, the packages like just day to day accommodation, food, et cetera.
Tina Plattner (:
So speaking for Brazzaville, Brazzaville is not because it's a government city. Things are quite, can be quite expensive and a lot of things are charged in dollars. But I think that's coming from us in South Africa. If you're thinking and earning in dollars, I think then it's pretty much a match. We often, our currency here is one to 15 or one to 16 to the dollar. So just about anything feels expensive when you're out of South Africa. So I think it's very much on par with.
a European or US trip and obviously accommodation you can get very discounted compared to Europe or America.
James Hammond (:
Okay and before we finish on the last details with Canberra, anything else I've missed on the ROC that you should mention? Or even want to say and just like to try and convince people to come?
Tina Plattner (:
That's a good question. think it's a, I would just love people to come because it's such a nice and friendly and small and diverse country. Like for me, it has really crept into my heart. always say my heart is split into three pieces. Original pieces stayed in Germany. It will always be there because that's where I was born. Then South Africa has a big heart, a big home in my heart. And then
or Congo has claimed the third part of my heart because it is, I haven't been there for 12 weeks in a row or so, I need to go back because the people are just so friendly. The country is so beautiful. And it's that mix of wilderness and then civilization in the cities, but then you're in the park and we are currently the only operator in the park the size of, or private operator in the park the size of.
Rwanda is that vastness is just insane. We, sometimes when we have guests in camp and we have a max of 24 people at any one point in time, that's 24 guests in a park the size of Rwanda. And I think that in itself is just where else can you have that, that you really need that alone and that remote.
James Hammond (:
You kind of feel a bit small in amongst nature there, don't you? It's quite an unusual feeling.
Tina Plattner (:
Yeah, and I think it's another thing when people fly over, when they're flying with a plane and it really, as you get closer to the park and the forest picks up, it looks like you're flying over these massive broccoli fields because that's how the trees look from above. And you just look at it, nobody lives down there. There are just these tiny villages sprinkled in between, but it's such a big country and then only 6 million people live there. Somebody like me, I live Cape Town, I think is close to 5 million inhabitants. Where I grew up in Germany, couldn't tell the one city from the next because they had all grown into...
into one big city when you drive around the going out to the Congo into Utsala especially just gives you that. Wow. Amazing. Amazing that there are not thousands of people around me all the time.
James Hammond (:
Yeah, I think Canada's a similar vibe to that. When you go north, there is not much going on. Up to the Arctic.
Tina Plattner (:
Exactly, a lot of vastness, a lot of nothing.
James Hammond (:
just like one road and that's pretty much about it. So if you fly, you just see, I do wonder, this is a bit of a tangent, do you ever wonder like when you fly over the Congo maybe or even Kanda, like that spot you see from the plane, has anyone been to that spot? Because it's so big and it's so vast and in the middle of nowhere, has anyone actually walked in that little area which I have no idea even if it has a name? That's kind of what I think with Kanda, like there's endless amounts of exploration I think.
Tina Plattner (:
So we know definitely in the park, when we speak to park management, there are areas in the park where the ⁓ patrols and the guards struggle to get into because it's so thick and so dense. So there are definitely areas in the park where we know that humans have not necessarily been there.
James Hammond (:
Yeah, that's incredible. You don't get that much in the world now, do you? Like, where we are in humanity, that's quite a feat.
Tina Plattner (:
Yeah, it's really one of the last undiscovered spots. And we say, if you want to have that cocktail party story, yeah. And you where are you going on holiday while you're on your Mac and you're like, well, I'm going to the Congo. And then exactly the Congo, who goes there? That's not like, well, the other Congo.
James Hammond (:
Yeah,
absolutely. Which brings us nicely back around to just the final part. Please remind people where they can find Canberra. That's also website and social media and how they can start getting the process and maybe looking into booking something.
Tina Plattner (:
So the Kamba is obviously found in the Republic of Congo, as we said earlier, not the Democratic Republic of Congo, it borders Gabon and Cameroon. Our website is www.kambaafrica.com. Our email address to send booking inquiries or price inquiries or any inquiry about Kamba is info at kambaafrica.com.
To be honest, Instagram and I need to look up what that was in your notes. I'm terrible with Facebook and Instagram. think Instagram is camber.africa.
James Hammond (:
Okay, yeah, I can find it and put it in the show notes, don't worry. And I'll put those links in the show notes so people can click on that as well. Is social media big for conversion of... Do you think it's big for you guys?
Tina Plattner (:
social media, we have more and more requests where people say, we've seen you on social media. Want to hear more, definitely. we find the more we now started putting reels on Instagram, it's definitely, it's definitely becoming a thing that people follow it. So definitely, it's definitely the modern way of marketing, especially to people directly, obviously not so much necessarily to people who book through agents, but people.
contact us directly, they would definitely say, hey, I've seen an Insta-reel or we've seen you on Facebook or we've seen a magazine article. Can you tell us more?
James Hammond (:
Okay, yeah, I put all those links in the show notes, so it'd be easy for people listening to click on anything that they want to see there in terms of the social media or the website or the email and make it as easy as possible for people to get in contact. So that's gonna be good. I'm gonna finish the episode. Just a quick little feature for you, which I haven't done in a while actually. It's a quick fire travel questions. So what I normally do with the guests who's traveled a bit is ask them some of their favorite things. Could be personal or work travel, whatever you want.
It's travel question time. I'm going to ask you for the top three favorite countries that you've traveled to.
Tina Plattner (:
I can tell you definitely number one Angola went there last year November and loved it. Second one Congo and my third South Africa. That's actually the bottom part of Africa.
James Hammond (:
I
The next question is three countries you've not been to that you'd love to go to next.
Tina Plattner (:
India, Canada, and Cambodia.
James Hammond (:
Okay, and tell us if you could live somewhere for a year tomorrow that you've not lived in before. So I've got to rule out Germany, South Africa and the Congo, they could be ruled out because I think you'd choose any of those. Where'd you live tomorrow if you could?
Tina Plattner (:
I Portugal, I would move to Lisbon happily, I think. ⁓
James Hammond (:
⁓ Okay, tell me three favorite country's cuisines.
Tina Plattner (:
I definitely love eating in Italy. is seafood in Portugal is another big one sitting on one of those beaches with one of those butterfly barbecue fish. And the third one, well, I would love to travel to India to actually try Indian food in India. I haven't done that yet.
James Hammond (:
Okay, I just got back from there actually, it's amazing. Okay, what about if you could have a cup of coffee or a glass of wine and sit somewhere and just watch the world go by for an afternoon? Where are you gonna sit?
Tina Plattner (:
I'm definitely going to sit somewhere on a beach by the ocean listening to the waves roll in. And is it a coffee or a wine? I'm sure there must be a combo between the two, a coffee flavored wine.
James Hammond (:
Yeah, okay fair enough. espresso martini maybe? Might go into that? ⁓ Okay, are you a sunrise or sunset person?
Tina Plattner (:
That sounds good.
I'm a sunset person.
James Hammond (:
Okay, most popular answer, got it. And let's go with a favourite hike or walk or trek.
Tina Plattner (:
I could walk or trek. I definitely like a nice walk on the beach or a nice walk in the countryside. So I think I'm a walk.
James Hammond (:
Okay. And if you can only see one view for the rest of your life. So for example, it's either a beach, it could be a mountain range, it could be the forest, whatever, but just one tomorrow. It's going to start tomorrow. What are you going to choose? The ocean. interesting. Okay. I didn't expect that. Okay. Right. Fair enough. And I'm going to finish with tell us in one or two sentences, if someone's listening right now, why they're nervous about traveling abroad internationally, just in general.
Tina Plattner (:
I should
James Hammond (:
But I'm also going to add in here, maybe even going to Africa as a continent, like why they should make the leap, trust the process, go and experience a completely different cultural aspect, and maybe just a bit of inspiration as to why they should make that leap.
Tina Plattner (:
I think you should always take a leap because you find something in yourself you didn't know before, right? You grow. When you dare to do something you haven't done before, you grow personally. You come back an enriched person. You come back probably proud of yourself. So that, think Africa does that to a lot of people. There is always a little bit of fear of coming to Africa or to West Africa, like the Congo. And we have it to nearly every single guest. She then comes this, didn't know what to expect, but.
my word, was it so much better than what I expected? And my word, am I taking so much home and I'm a changed person for the better. And I think if I had more people who can come and say that and say, wow, Africa has done something to me that's changed me positively going forward in life, or the Congo has changed me, or Zara has changed me, I think that would be really amazing. And I think that's what makes it worth to travel and travel to areas that maybe make one feel a little bit uncomfortable booking.
But isn't that uncomfortable feeling also just a little bit of excitement?
James Hammond (:
scared sighted. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. And then the fact that I've not been, it just keeps eating away at me. So I think I'm going to take that few sentences and really think about it. think so. Tina, thanks for coming on the show. You've been a positive energy. You've shared so much with us and I think it should inspire some people to go and visit Canberra in the ROC.
Tina Plattner (:
Thank you for having me. It was really exciting chatting to you. And if anyone feels like reaching out, please do so via email and we're happy to help.
James Hammond (:
Yep, and all the links and contact details have been in the show notes. So thanks so much.
Tina Plattner (:
Thank you.
James Hammond (:
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