Episode Lineup

Leading the Way – Guest: Dr. Kimberly Hurns / The History of MI-ACE Women's Network

RIPPER – Topic: Liberty Through Love (In Memoriam of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.)

A PsychoDelious Conversation – Topic: Ancestry, Culture, and Identity, Pt 2

LCC Connect can be heard live on 89.7FM WLNZ and online at https://www.lcc.edu/connect/listen.html

1. Saturdays: 1 p.m. – 3 p.m.
2. Sundays: 6 p.m. – 8 p.m.

Many of our podcasts feature video and can be viewed on YouTube: LCC Connect

Follow us on Facebook: LCC Connect

Hello and welcome to Leading the Way Women in Higher Education, a podcast dedicated to celebrating, supporting and advancing women in higher education across Michigan.

I'm Dr. Cynthia Rooker and I'm so thrilled to kick off this episode today.

Thank you.

Because we're going to dive into the history and mission of Michigan ace, the Michigan chapter of the American Council on Education's Women's Network.

My guest today is an incredible leader in Higher Education, Dr. Kimberly M. Hearns.

She brings a wealth of experience and insight in today's conversation, and I am so pleased to have her with us.

Dr. Hearns, would you mind starting by introducing yourself and and sharing a little bit about your background and your connection to Michigan ace?

Okay.

Well, I'm so glad to be here.

Michigan ACE means so very much to me, I guess I would say, both professionally and personally.

So.

I currently am the Vice Chancellor for Student Services at Oakland Community College.

I've been in that role for about three years now.

And prior to that I was executive Vice President and Vice President of Instruction at Washtenaw Community College.

I served as Dean at Washtenaw Community College and started my tenure there as full time business faculty.

Then our college hosted the Women of Color Collaborative Fall Networking Luncheon.

And I just got very active in the network, stayed active on the Women of Color Collaborative Committee, and then was asked to join the board.

I've been on the board of Michigan ACE since I am now proud to say I am a Merita board member and I served as state chair for Michigan ACE.

Oh, great.

Thank you so much, Dr. Hearns.

It is so wonderful to have you here.

So let's go ahead and begin our conversation by looking at the roots of Michigan ACE and how your journey with the organization began.

Can you please share your involvement with Michigan ACE over the years, provide us just a brief history of the organization and please tell us how its mission has evolved.

It's an amazing story of how Michigan ACE started.

You know, there are so many women in the network who are still very active who would be able to dig much deeper into some of the history.

But I would say one of the things that's very important from a historical standpoint is Mary Lee Davis, who worked at Michigan State University.

And she was just a trailblazer there in the work.

And so many things that she touched across the state as well as at Michigan State.

She was one of the people who started and nurtured Michigan ACE as a network.

It's evolved from different names in regards to what kind of legislation and policy work was happening across the country to get more women in executive positions, to have more women support in the field of higher education.

And so a lot of that work.

Again, we're very fortunate that Mary Lee Davis is still around.

But even Chris Hammond, a former president of one of the community colleges here in Michigan, very, very active member, she was a student of Mary Lee Davis, I do believe, and help push the network forward in regards to the programming that was taking place and the structure of it.

Mary making sure that we had a fiduciary in Grand Valley State who supported the network and actually has been the backbone of many of our structural piece of Michigan ACE Network.

And then one of the things that I mentioned earlier on the Women of Color Collaborative, the network has evolved.

We actually have archives at Michigan State University.

And some years ago I went and looked at those archives and just to see the programming.

A long time ago, you know, it was a push to teach women how to play golf and just really trying to develop those skills that the network thought were necessary at the time to help propel women.

And then we moved forward to the Women of Color Collaborative and that was a brainchild of Lynette Finley.

And one of the things I love to say about Lynette Finley is that she was a mentor and administrator when I was an undergrad at Eastern Michigan University and has been continued to be a mentor to me.

But Lynette Finley started the Women of Color Collaborative because again, there was something missing.

There was something that needed to be amplified a little bit more in the network and that was supporting women of color.

And so that has been a big piece of our network.

It's also been what's actually pushed us to be an award winning network with ACE national is that that Women of Color Collaborative that fall networking luncheon and then adding that first day to our state conference.

So the Women of Color Collaborative now is the host, the curator of the first day of our two day state conference.

And that also moved the state conference from a one day conference to a two day conference.

So I would say over time, the network, as we approach a milestone and celebrating us being one of the more vibrant, consistent networks across the country, it has been responsive.

We've made changes and adjustments along the way.

You know, I even think back to during COVID We knew the network was so important because we did not want to cancel the conference during that second year of COVID And what we ended up doing was we figured out right virtually how to host a free virtual conference.

And we had, you know, record attendance.

And again, it was being responsive to the needs of the women in the network.

And so I think over the years, you know, the network has evolved into what the women, the professional women in higher education in Michigan needed.

And I know that that's meant a lot, not only to women individually, but to so many careers.

There are so many connections the women have with one another.

As I mentioned, many of the network members who are very active or students of Mary Lee or their dissertation chairs are part of the network, Their references for one another, and just really coaches and encouraging one another as it relates to us building careers and always thinking about moving that needle in regards to representation of women and leadership in higher education.

Wow.

That is certainly amazing.

Incredible.

Well, can you please tell us then, what inspired the information of the Michigan ACE women's network as to what makes Michigan ACE unique compared to other leadership organizations?

You know, I think the one thing that makes it unique, and this seems so small, but it actually is very real as a board member, you know, and as I said, I've been on the board for a while now.

You know, every year, our annual conference kind of is that feedback loop for us of, you know, what professional development do women need?

And that conference agenda every single year is curated by, you know, the previous year survey.

You know, what we're seeing in the environment in regards to what skill sets need to be developed, what things need to be encouraged.

The last few years, we've been really embracing wellness because that work life balance or work life integration has become so important to women and women's health and their longevity in these careers.

So I think that what makes it unique is that we want to be responsive to the network, and the network is made up of the women who are in the network.

You know, we have member institutions, but what's most important to us is that we are providing the value, the relationships, the encouragement, the motivation that women need at that given time.

And I'd say the time that I've been active in a network, the environment has been so dynamic.

Higher ed is changing so much, and those needs change fast.

You know, what might be a webinar in the second part of the year during the fall semester may be something totally different when we come around to our June state conference.

You know, right now, there's been a lot like this year, the conference really focused a lot on policy, and policy has always been a big part of the network.

But in this past year to 18 months, policy has been at the forefront of so much of our work in higher ed.

So that was something that was highly integrated into the to the state conference this past year.

So I think that what makes the network special is that it's responsive.

And the heartbeat of the network is the members, and they are the ones who craft what our agenda is.

Even from a public policy standpoint, when we're looking at public policy, we do a survey from our public policy committee, and they're asking the network what's at the forefront, what do we need to be responding to?

And those are things that drive the agenda of the network.

And I think that's what's made us very special.

And, you know, of course, always just women in general, supporting women makes the network, you know, even more special.

Yeah.

That's fantastic that the feedback is so powerful, that it does help with developing the program for the following year or throughout the year for other programs and sessions that you have.

That's fantastic.

So how has Michigan ACE impacted.

How about, like, the landscape of.

Of higher education leadership within the state of Michigan?

Well, one of the things that I think is impacted that the leadership in Michigan is that, you know, just that skill development.

You know, when you come to a Michigan AC conference or one of our events with our institutional reps, you know, the feeling in the room is just so electric and so motivating and so supportive.

But when it gets down to brass tax, we're talking about how do we develop skills with budgeting, and we're talking about the things that women need to actually make their resumes more competitive, how do we sit at committees, in hiring committees when we go back to our campuses?

So I think that it's important for us to remember that at the end of the day, which we've never lost focus on, it's about supporting women in their trajectory and building strong careers, because we believe that makes an impact on all of higher education when we have the diversity of women at the table using their voice to impact education.

Especially when we look at the numbers now of how many women are actually partaking in higher education, it's extremely important that we have that diverse voice at the table.

But we also want to make sure that when women are at the table, they can be heard and they're actually going to be successful in the roles that they're in.

When conversations were moving very aggressively in the area of dei, we were on the forefront of making sure that the conference, our webinars, the skills, the conversations were around that topic.

As we pulled back, you know, not losing that objective, we've also had conversations about how do we interpret this policy and how do we make sure that we're being responsive to it, but really focusing on those skills, those experience experiences.

You know, our shadow program is, you know, one of the things that we're extremely proud of.

And ACE national does a program, a leadership development program that is extremely intense.

And what we want to do was to make sure we could do that on a local level that gave more people access to it.

Because many of the leadership programs and many of the leadership work that happens at a national level may not be something that all women have access to because of the current roles they have.

So our shadow program provides that access at a statewide level, but it still gives the value of that experience, that leadership shadowing, that leadership development that women need.

So again, going back to that resume, they can make sure that they're uplifting the good work that they're doing and being able to highlight that in interviews and resumes and just in their bio of what.

So that the impact I think of the network is extreme.

And again, as I said before, it's always changing and evolving in ways that women need.

Yes.

And supporting women's voice, that exactly what we're doing here today, isn't it, through this podcast.

That's fantastic.

So would you like to share a few leadership lessons that you have learned through your work with Michigan ACE that's carried you into your current role at Oakland Community College?

You know what, there's so many.

There's so many.

But one of the things that I think of most is asking for help.

You know, I think that's good.

Yeah, I think that for many, you know, high achieving people, high achieving women, you don't always know to ask for help.

But I also think that when you're in an environment where the culture makes it easy for you to ask for help and help is offered, I think it opens up a two way street and it gives comfort and confidence for people to not feel less than if they are actually asking for help.

And just reiterating that we don't do anything alone, you know, our effectiveness.

I would tell anybody, first and foremost, my career as an executive in higher education is a straight line to Michigan ace.

You know, those women have encouraged me, they have vouched for me, they practice interviews, they've read cover letters for me.

And there have been some times where I've been very challenged in my transition from one organization to another and just any of the plans that I have in my career, but that ability to make health accessible, and I think that's been extremely important.

And the one thing that I think everyone in the Network models is that we all pass it forward.

You know, we all, we all pay it forward to other folks.

So anybody knows they can come to me and ask for help.

If it's someone who just joined the network, this is their first time attending a conference, we want to be accessible.

And I think making that help accessible is something that the network models very well.

I'm very proud.

The board models that very well.

And I think it brings comfort to, you know, women who are just starting off in their career or women who need to make a transition in their career.

But I think that the help part is that, you know, help being something that's appreciated and that brings you joy providing it and seeking it out.

Not something that I think, you know, many people sometimes think of that as, you know, a negative, that you need help.

And so I think for me, that has been something that I really embrace from the network because the help is just so free and so open and the women have been so giving.

And I think that's been extremely consistent.

And I know that that's mattered a lot for a lot of the women who at any point in time, all of us in our career are going to need help.

And to know that that's available has been a great lesson for me.

Oh, that's fantastic.

What a great lesson, asking for help and also paying it forward.

Thank you so much.

That's fantastic.

Thanks for tuning in to Leading the Way women in higher Education.

To listen to this episode and others, visit lcconnect.com until next time.

Keep leading, keep learning, and keep lifting others along the way.

Keep connected with lcc connect at lccconnect.org.

Lcc connect voices vibes vision.

For service members ready to make their transition into a civilian career.

Lansing Community College helps veterans navigate their educational path with the option to earn college credits for military experience in related fields, personalized support from confidential counseling to help find VA benefits and fast track programs in information technology and medical specialties.

To find out how, visit LCC.edu and search military credit.

Keep yourself connected with what's happening in MidMichigan by joining us for Community Convos, a show from LCC Connect where we talk with the people who put the festive in our festivals and those that give traction to our attractions.

Find out who's on the convo and listen on demand@lccconnect.org.

Have you had to choose between picking up a prescription or buying groceries, paying your utility bill or insulating your attic?

You're not alone.

Every day, people across Michigan are faced with choices.

Michigan Community Action is a network of agencies helping people achieve greater financial and personal independence through programs such as weatherization, food distribution, utility assistance and Head Start preschools.

The programs supported by Michigan Community Action benefit people all over the state.

Maybe you've just lost your job and are having trouble making ends meet, or maybe you're retired and and Social Security isn't enough.

Whatever your situation, we may be able to help.

Visit MichiganCommunityAction.org or call 855-mi-action to find out more.

Helping People Changing Lives Sponsored by Michigan Community Action and Michigan Broadcasters.

The Lansing Community College foundation provides scholarships that make education possible, change students lives and uplift our community.

Students may apply for scholarships November 1st through January 31st.

Learn more at LCC EDU Scholarships.

LCC.

Connect Voices Vibes Vision hello there.

This is Terry Denise, a Lansing Community College student and your host of Ripper, an LCC Connect podcast where I interview others and ask about their unique efforts and connections in around and beyond the community of Michigan's capital city.

Hello, this is Terry Denise from Ripper.

I am actually going to be doing a little bit of a moment to reflect upon Martin Luther King Jr. And I just wanted to say some words about the inspiration and admiration that I had for the doctor in memorial of the day that is usually celebrated on the third Monday of January in America is usually reserved for Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

So we gave some kind of act of kindness or some representation in memoration for this activist, this American activist, and I just wanted to speak a little bit up on that.

This is not going to be a full show.

I wanted to take a couple minutes though and hope you appreciate some of the words that I have.

So Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Social activist in America, one of the heralding personnel in the civil rights movement here in America, and he was inspired and had been a proponent in forwarding a lot of civil rights actions that weren't only taking place in the United States of America, but worldwide.

He had learned and had read from many, many other humans, such as Gandhi and even his name itself, Martin Luther, is from the inspiration for breaking apart, I guess you could say from and having some kind of freedom of sorts from the past in different factions of breaking apart from a state of things.

He was named for Martin Luther, but Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Here in America represents a lot of great things.

So I'm just gonna speak about his legacy and what it means to me personally.

I'll start off, actually, I've Mentioned it before, but I, of course, grew up in Michigan, and I grew up in East Lansing, Michigan, actually.

I went to one of the elementary schools in East Lansing School district.

And I. I was very, very fortunate to have had a teacher, Yvonne Purnell, Mrs. Purnell, who was a great, great, inspiring individual who led many children onto focusing on positive actions and positive spirit, having an appreciation for learning and inviting and invoking the spirit of that being a great thing to have intelligence, to be kind towards one another, even when you didn't realize that you weren't being that, you know, that you were growing up.

So she was my second grade teacher, actually.

And I'm a muskrat.

I'm a marble muskrat.

Proud.

So, so second grade.

That would mean that I would have been around maybe about seven at the time.

So she really, really helped me to understand a lot of different things that I didn't understand had already happened in the world.

So she introduced so many of us to understanding kindness towards each other.

It's not so much as this heralding statement or protesting or any kind of action such as that.

It was literally just how to treat each other and providing a balance within yourself to help in moments where you may feel imbalanced or others around you may feel imbalanced and unjustifiably so.

So this spirit of, like, just being introduced to the Civil Rights movement and being inspired by so many other individuals helped me understand that going to school could be this great, great thing.

It didn't have to be this terrible.

I'm tired.

And things are getting so, so difficult in a second grader's mind.

You know, you're growing up and you start to realize that the world is a moment much bigger than what you think it is, because you got one straight shot.

You're getting up and getting your book back together, eating your oatmeal and chewing on your Flintstones vitamins, and then you're getting on a bus or getting dropped off at school, and it's time to start learning about things.

And we had gone beyond only just going in and tracing our hands for the.

The turkey for Thanksgiving.

We were in these moments of learning about our country and where we came from as individuals and what other people from other areas of the world who came to East Lansing, what they were learning about.

We were all learning about these things at the same time.

So this was all new to mostly everybody.

And it was terrifying in the best to learn about experiences that Americans that came before us had gone through.

And the impact that this amount of education and knowledge had on me was so helpful in understanding what others have possibly gone through in their lives.

It learned a lot about radical empathy without realizing it was because we weren't calling it that.

We were just learning how to support each other and how maybe to react a different way.

There's a lot of different people from a lot of different backgrounds that I sat in class with.

And we all had to learn from our own mistakes that we may have made with each other or just to help teach ourselves how to be better guided in how to be a leader in our own rights.

And I don't think that anybody who came out of Mrs. Purnell's class could ever say that they didn't learn how to be a better human.

And that was definitely helped along by the recognition of Martin Luther King Jr. S birthday, which I didn't realize.

Maybe, maybe we were told at the time, but it didn't really, in a young person's mind, it didn't really make sense because your distance from birth to where you were as a 7, 8 year old, it's just kind of like, oh, okay, this is a new thing, but I'm also new, so my frame of reference for things happening are a little bit more limited on the grand scope and scape of things.

So finding out that, oh, this is a person who helped people form an idea and this notion and this very feasible reason, the state of logic of being as a human, this act of knowing that equality, equity is a very attainable and a very, very good thing to have for one another.

As a child, learning what equality meant meant that you had to learn that there was in fact an inequality going on.

So it was an undertaking.

But I think so many of us evolved very quickly and grew to understand that this was very important thing that we all needed to know for social skills and for knowing that there was no way that you can't be a better person regardless of where you're coming from, when you're coming from in any regard.

And I'm not going to go into the speech or like play a feed, but I wanted to talk about the fact that the tone is and intention behind that I have a Dream speech.

All of the words there, the speech itself is beyond moving because those words are severely sincere and true.

King's voice and rhetoric, it put forth efforts to crack this illusionary veil forced upon humans for way too long and then breaking apart.

The notion that words alone aren't the pathway to true freedom is kind of what that speech was saying.

It is in fact the truth in act that humans present and represent themselves.

This would be through their character.

This is what allows one to see through this thick veil of unjustified restrictions, foundations built upon knowing that there is truly a better way to connect with others and ourselves.

This feeling of being proud, of creating our own destinies that evade and avoid destroying that of another's structures.

That's the supportive reality that no one should suffer, no one should suffer to serve a toxic pattern of generational abuse.

And that's what all of us learned, that there is a way to break free from from this toxic cycle of sorts.

This is an every moment work in action.

This is for everybody on earth.

This is something that still is attainable, but there is still a lot of work that needs to be done and this is just for humans at all.

Unfortunately, the lifespan of Dr. King's work was much too short and a spark of a revered beam of Dr. Kim was seemingly diminished.

But King's legacy does shine as this quote, great beacon light of hope, unquote.

That is something he spoke of in his own speech.

This great beacon light of hope is it's out there for everyone who needs it.

In very shadowy moments he knew that it's not a single person that can lead.

It's truly everyone that can find a leader within themselves.

That is what makes a true leader.

A person that first seeks to improve upon themselves.

Someone that doesn't force their flaws onto those around them.

The importance of this day that's dedicated to American civil rights leader Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And its welcome as an incredible federally recognized holiday and one that will not be removed from its past, present or future prevalence.

Not to me, not to myself, definitely not to my classmates that I grew up with.

I want to thank Mrs. Purnell so much for being such a great beacon of hope and definitely introducing to to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. And happy birthday Dr. King.

This is Terry Denise and that's my moment of Ripper today.

Thanks for tuning in to Ripper.

You can find more about this and other LCC connect podcasts@lccconnect.com.

Sharing the voices of Lansing Community College.

Visit us at lccconnect.org LCC Connect Voices vibes Vision.

LCC Library empowers the Lansing community to learn, teach and discover.

Located on the second and third floors of the Technology and Learning center at the corner of Capitol and Shiawassee on LCC's downtown campus.

The LCC Library's ambient spaces are available to the public for work, study, or quiet personal projects.

In addition, those with memberships at Collaborating Libraries are free to check out materials from the LCC Library's collections.

For more information, visit lcc Edu Library.

Hi, I'm Melissa Caplan and I host a show called Galaxy Forum on LCC Connect.

It's all about the creativity in our classrooms and on campus here at LCC and the connections we have with the community.

You can catch Galaxy Forum here on LCC Connect or listen anytime@lccconnect.org.

I didn't want to talk.

She just sat with me.

That was all I really needed.

We got back and of course we went to different cities.

One day he called me out of the blue and it's comforting to know that I always encountered him to have my back.

We hadn't talked for a while and then she texted me and we went for a walk.

She called me from time to time.

I really didn't think I needed any help.

I was away from my family during the holidays and a friend invited me to their house for dinner.

Really meant a lot.

He knew I was having a rough week so he asked me to go fishing with my friend.

Knew that I didn't want to go out so she brought me dinner instead.

It took me from being really depressed.

To feeling like somebody cared.

It gave me some hope.

Just that one text Be there.

Your call, your presence, your words, your support.

Be there and help save a life.

Learn more about preventing suicide@VeteransCrisisLine.net.

A seven week job training opportunity is now enrolling and many can participate tuition free.

Those who have graduated from high school within the last five years can attend the Electrical Control Technician Boot Camp at no cost thanks to grants from the Michigan Department of Economic Development.

Those interested in the Electrical Control Technician Boot Camp provided by the LCC Job Training center can learn more at LCC.edu jtc, LCC Connect Voices vibes Vision.

Welcome.

To a Psycho delicious conversation on mental health issues and trends from two local mental health professionals in the greater Lansing area.

I'm Michael Stratton, lmsw and I'm Morgan.

Bowen, dnp, pmhnp and we're here to provide you with a deep dive into the human experience of consciousness and beyond.

Our aim is to be educational and entertaining, so just kick back and open your ears and your minds.

I'm Michael Stratton or Mike Stratton oh You can see, you can talk about identity.

I'm.

You know, I almost.

I almost texted you today and said, hey, Morg.

My name is Morg Morgan Bowen.

You're an organ.

Or is that Corg?

Corg.

Korg is what I'm thinking of, isn't it?

My grandma called me Morgi, so in my family, my.

My grandma would call me Morgi, and my dad actually called me Porkers.

P. O.

Like something from my childhood.

Yeah.

Oh, this is.

That was, like, his affectionate name for.

For me, this is a great segue into adverse childhood experiences.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Did you have a nickname?

Anybody call you?

Well, let me think.

What am I?

No, I think it was always Mikey.

No, I think it was always Mike.

How about you?

I mean, oddly enough, and this we can segue still, because my grandfather did not like my father.

My father named me Dalio.

Okay.

That was the one really good thing that he did for me, because now I appreciate it.

So growing up, though, I was always Charlie because my grandfather refused to call you.

I mean, yeah, just my grandfather called me Charlie.

I mean, nobody else called me Charlie.

He just didn't want to call me Dalian or Day because my.

My dad named me.

That's how much he did not like my dad.

Yeah.

Wow.

Wow.

We're gonna schedule some sessions.

Chipping away.

We're chipping away at the.

We're getting to know a little bit more about Dajillion every.

Every time we do this.

Well, it's fascinating, isn't it?

And it's.

The cool thing about this podcast is that I think when people do listen to it and they listen to it over time, it triggers different things for them, and it opens them up in a way that they start to look at themselves a little differently, and they see maybe patterns are like, okay, this explains this trend I seem to have or this characteristic or.

And definitely one of the things that I appreciate about you guys is that you actually share your personal stories, because a lot of the times, I know, like, mental health professionals, people look at them and they think they got their crap all together, and they don't necessarily have that going on.

It's both.

You know, I think it's.

I think people.

Well, I do think people kind of work in their wounds, and I think that's true kind of across the board.

If you want to, you know, see people who grew up in chaotic households, you know, go to an emergency room and, you know, talk to the people that work there.

And chances are, there was a lot of chaos and a lot Of I used to work.

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

Morgan.

Why are you looking at me?

Why are you looking at me?

That's really interesting because when I thought about working in the er, I was like, I would never be good at that because it's so chaotic and I just didn't ever really think that I would be great in an emergency.

But when I got there, I was really good at it and I could, in the midst of chaos, I could really focus and just respond in a way that was very surprising to me.

But.

And I've never thought of it like.

How you just generally good framed it there.

Michael.

Myself in a weird situation like that, I'm usually pretty.

Pretty much the calm one around.

Yeah.

Which is always weird to me.

Well, like everybody else is kind of freaking out.

I'm like, well, somebody needs to take care of the situation and we can't go all crazy doing it.

Yeah.

So.

Yeah.

Well.

But thinking about my own childhood, there was, it wasn't, you know, cha.

Like the chaos was.

Certainly wasn't like an emergency room chaos.

But I guess there was a lot of emotionality, a lot of stuff that happened that was external to my situation and was really about my parents or the larger dynamic that you just kind of weathered through, I guess.

Well, nothing is all one way or the other.

So my own family, they were people that were very kind, very loving, upper middle class.

We didn't want for anything.

And every now and then when they drank too much, what I say is the monsters came out, you know, and just got hysterical and drunken and that kind of thing.

But most of it was really, really good.

So it's anyway the same, the same.

Process except there wasn't a huge amount of drinking.

My parents did drink, but that wasn't, that wasn't what drove the church, was it jealousy?

It was definitely my parents relationship and they had been.

They were married at 21 and they're.

They loved each other and then they didn't.

At some point that stopped.

But I think the loving stopped before the marriage ended.

And so the marriage didn't end until I was an adult.

So.

So it was.

There was.

And there was moving.

We were a military family.

There was a lot of movement and just a lot of changing of scenery and new schools for us and new situations and a lot of, you know, we're in a new place and here you go, here's school or here's the ymca and figure it out.

Figure it out.

You know, it's kind of a cliche.

The Idea that people are doing the best they know how to do.

And I don't know if that's always true.

I try to think of things in that way, you know, in terms of giving people some grace as a parent.

You know, I can look back at things and say, I can't believe I did that, or I can't believe I thought that was a good idea to handle it that way.

So I see it differently now.

I see my own parenting styles differently now than I did at the time, you know.

But anyway, and we're going to talk about the ace, the Adverse Childhood Experience Questionnaire.

And one of the.

In my experience, and it'll make more sense when we talk about the ACE questionnaire, is that I always felt cared for.

I never felt that my parents weren't going to pick me up or I was going to have to find my own way home or, you know, I knew that in the grand scheme of things, that they were going to take care of me, that I was going to be taken care of.

That feeling of safety and security, even though it was kind of a rough ride sometimes.

Yeah.

Mostly true for me, too.

But I Now, I think everybody I've ever talked to in my life has had that experience where they didn't get picked up.

Well, that's true.

There is.

That did happen.

I was the middle child, so a lot happened to me in that area.

That's all I'm saying.

Well, let's go through.

And I knew my parents loved me, too.

I did know that my parents loved me.

So there's 10 categories of adverse childhood experiences.

Okay.

Or ACEs.

And just to frame it, this is something that we.

This is a questionnaire that was developed, and I use it mostly when I'm on an intake.

So before I see somebody, I have them fill this out and it gives me some measure of what their childhood experience was.

Yeah.

And this would occur before you were 18 years old.

So let's just go through them one at a time.

So the first question is, did you feel that you didn't have enough to eat or had to wear dirty clothes or that no one was there there to protect you or take care of you?

I would say no.

I mean, I didn't feel that way.

I'd say no.

I would say no.

I. I do have some memories of being very hungry as a little kid.

And there was a. Yeah.

So I.

But basically, I would say no.

Yeah.

Number two, did you lose a parent through divorce, abandonment, death, or other reason?

I did not.

I did.

That's one.

One for dadalian.

All right, I'm keeping score here.

Hold on.

Keep score.

Okay.

Did you live with anyone who was depressed, mentally ill, or attempted suicide?

That would be a yes for me.

Okay.

I would say no.

Okay, let me read that.

Did you live with anyone who had a.

Am I in the wrong one?

I am.

Number three, did you live with anyone depressed, mentally ill, or.

I'm.

No.

No.

Yeah, and that was.

That was a yes for me.

So.

One for Morgan.

Yeah.

One for Mike.

My dad was very depressed.

He was very depressed.

He was on medication a lot, and.

And.

And talked about suicide a lot, so.

Okay, let's do number four.

Your voice is great.

Did you live with anyone who had a problem with drinking or.

Or using drugs, including prescription drugs?

That'd be a big yes for Mike.

Mine was a no.

Really?

No one?

Not my parents.

I mean, you know, we dabbled in, you know, my brothers.

Well, your brothers, though, I mean, they didn't.

I mean, because it says anyone who.

Had a problem, but it wasn't a problem.

Okay.

You know, at that time, I think.

By the time I'm done, I'm doing pretty good.

I know.

I think I have to say yes by the time I'm done.

I mean, my dad definitely had some issues, but that was after second grade.

But I also think there was somebody else in my family that might have been drinking, and I just wasn't really aware of it, if that makes sense.

Well, and you aren't always as a child, and it's not until kind of looking backwards that you recognize, oh, maybe there was something going on and that did impact the situation that was happening.

Okay, number.

Let's do number five.

Did your parents or adults in your home ever hit, punch, beat, or threaten to harm each other?

No.

No, no, no.

For me to harm each other?

No, no, no.

They'd yell, but they would not.

Yes, yell.

All right, number six.

Did you live with anyone who went to jail or prison?

No.

No.

For me, yeah, I did.

Okay, you're up to three.

I'm working at it, man.

Did a parent or adult in your home ever swear at you, insult you, or put you down?

That would be a yes.

That one for me is a yeah.

I.

Welcome to the board, Morgan.

I know Morgan's on the board.

I'm trying to catch up.

I would say no.

Put you down.

My dad would.

I would try to do things that would get his approval, and he would just say things like, don't quit your day job.

But that wasn't before I was 18.

Sounds like my situation where it was more humorous or jovial or not jovial.

What's the word?

I don't know.

I can say yes, but it was all.

Or not.

I would say no.

I would say he, he did not insult me.

He would, I think he, I think he had a hard time giving a compliment because I, I, I would say.

We just joked back and forth.

Yeah.

All right, so am I marking one down for you or not?

No.

Okay, me neither.

I'm going to go no.

I'm going to say no as well.

Did a parent or adult in your home ever hit, beat, kick, or physically hurt you in any way?

It's a no for me.

No.

Now, are we talking about spankings?

No.

I mean, early in life.

Yes.

Yes.

Then that's a yes.

So that's a yes.

Are you.

Yes.

No.

I would say no to that.

There was, you know, one occasion where my dad and I got into it, but it was not, I mean, I was the one that instigated it, really.

Okay.

And I was 17 at the time.

And it was after, you know, a lot of this is.

Yeah, I was gonna say that.

So I take ownership of that.

I have taken ownership of that.

Or at some point in my adult therapy life, I took ownership of that.

Number nine.

Did you feel that no one in your family loved you or, or thought you were special?

No.

Not no one.

I don't even know how to answer that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

When you say it that way.

Not no one.

I mean, yeah, I would say.

And I definitely felt loved.

Yeah, I would say no.

Okay, so we're all good there?

Yeah.

All right.

Did you experience unwanted sexual contacts such as spondyling or oral, anal, vaginal intercourse, penetration?

No, I would say no.

No.

All right, that's it.

That's the 10.

So let's give us what's our scores?

So now what are we supposed to do?

A point per each one?

Yeah, yeah.

You got two, Mike Morgan got one and I got four.

Okay.

So let's look at what that means.

All right.

We did not get ready for that.

Well, I can tell you that the idea is the higher the score, the.

More greater likelihood there is that you will develop some kind of an issue, either mental health wise or even physical in some way.

So adverse childhood.

Yeah.

In the large studies of this, the people with higher, higher scores had a, had a greater incidence of mental health diagnoses later.

Yeah, yeah.

In their life.

Yeah.

So for instance, see, none of us had a 5, but a score of 4 or more indicates a person has experienced a significant number of childhood traumas that can increase the risk of a range of health problems.

And that is also true.

It's not just mental health issues, it is other health issues.

Well, I've wondered about that thing like no one in my family has diabetes but me.

No one in my family has Parkinson's except for my brother.

And I'm like, is this connected to stuff that we experienced as a kid?

Kids when my parents marriage was really pretty rough when they were both having a really hard time with things?

Well, definitely for lifestyle influenced illnesses, which, I mean, I guess there's not really many that aren't lifestyle influenced.

So things related to smoking, drinking, using substances, so heart disease, diabetes, things that.

Are.

Heavily influenced by lifestyle choices that cause issues later on.

Well, the one thing I looked up here also says even at one in three can still indicate increased risk for certain health issues, but it seems to be four is the.

Is kind of a cutoff for it to be bigger.

Yeah.

And at least a couple of those were like probably half a yes, half no for me too.

Right, right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

So it's an indicator to, you know, be careful and watch your health and maybe get help.

Maybe get help when you notice that, which I've been a lifelong consumer of mental health.

I think another kind of perspective on that is the idea of breaking a cycle of generational trauma and how the things that happen to us when we're children will impact us and impact us.

And with our own mental health and our own physical health that then impacts our ability to parent or our choices that impact our own children.

So having a knowledge of it then allows us to have some information that can frame the choices that we make in parenting.

I said in the first section of this episode, that picture of the 25 people in my family and that half of them were addicted.

And I remember looking at that at a time when I had gotten into recovery and realized like, okay, out of the 13 of us, only two of us are in recovery.

Since then, everyone's gotten into recovery.

Everyone who had all.

Well, I shouldn't say everyone.

I would say the numbers completely flipped.

I would say 10 or 11 of us are in recovery of some kind of.

So talk about changing the trajectory of that trend.

And it was culturally normative to drink heavily during the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s.

Well, and also not to talk about anything like this.

I mean, family.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I have a sense of.

It's not really guilt, but like a recognition that my dad would not Be super happy about me talking about anything related to his stuff.

And I mean, he would respect my ability and choice to do so.

It took him a long time to come to a point where he would talk about things and look at that.

And he was a psychiatrist.

I mean, generationally, you just didn't talk about stuff like this.

And that sense of silence, shame, the things that go with that, just perpetual perpetuated, you know, in particular abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, which I don't know if that happened in my family or not.

But doing the work that we do, I was.

When I started, you know, working in mental health, I was just astounded at the number of people who experience sexual abuse.

And because that just wasn't a part of my story, that was something that my, my parents, my mom in particular was so all.

If there was any sort of sketchy situation, she was on it.

And I was just.

I've just been so astounded by the amount of people that, that are abused.

And how often have you had the.

Experience where people tell you, they say, I've never told anybody this, or this is the first time I've ever talked about this.

I mean that.

That is not uncommon as a therapist to hear those kind of secrets.

A lot of times in my role, because I do medication management, it is usually somebody who has talked about it in therapy and is in some type of trauma focused therapy.

And so for my purposes, my focus isn't trauma therapy.

So it's helpful for me to know, to understand the experience of the person, but not to make that a focus of care.

I don't know if we've ever done.

I know we did an episode on trauma, but I don't know if we ever did a specific one on emdr.

I don't recall hearing that that would.

Be a good idea because a lot of people ask about that.

A lot of people ask questions about it.

You emdr.

So we could.

EMDR is, is eye movement desensitization and reprocessing.

It's a kind of therapy that's very much focused on trauma.

Helping people reprocess traumatic memory in a way that it doesn't have the same kind of impact on their life as it did at one time.

I believe you did give it a mention during one episode.

It's the power tool of psychotherapy is what I.

And what, what people have told me, their experience of it and my experience of it of having been both someone who's done it but also have had it done to me or I've Availed myself of that kind of treatment.

You get to stuff at a deep level very, very quickly and resolve it or reprocess it, I would say, in a way.

So that's a good idea, too.

One of the things that you mentioned, Morgan, I don't know if I've ever talked about this before or not, but Freud, when he was first working with people, that's one thing that he found was he was basically doing kind of like an EMDR with women who would have been candidates for hysterectomies.

He was working with hysterical women.

And he would take a watch and he'd do this where their eyes would go back and forth and he'd just have them free associate.

And they'd do that every day for weeks and weeks and weeks and just say whatever came to mind.

And after a while, they would say, start talking about being molested by a family member.

A father, an uncle, a brother, you know, some.

Some family member.

And he thought, oh, my gosh, there's an epidemic of this.

And he was going to write that up, and then he decided, they.

That can't possibly be right.

You know, they must be fantasizing this.

And he went down that other path, which was unfortunate, but.

But he was uncovering the same thing.

Yeah.

Anyway, probably not part of his world.

So he just didn't feel like it was feasible.

I mean, I know you can't speak for the man.

Well, and I mean, given what the context.

And we labeled this as culture, as part of this.

The culture of that era was Victorian age.

So, I mean, things were really, really repressed.

They would be so shocked to see.

It's interesting because I just came back from New Orleans and a repressive.

Talk about repressive.

It's totally not repressed.

But one of the things we did, we went down for the.

The jazz festival, the Jazz and Music Heritage Festival, but we went to the Storyville Museum.

And Storyville was a place where there was a lot of prostitution in New Orleans.

And to combat that, they cordoned it off and they made a.

A certain special part of the city, Storyville.

They made that as a place where people could go and have sex with prostitutes.

And they had drawings, they had pictures, they had film clips of different things.

And even the stuff at that time that would have been pornographic, the people of that age would have thought of as pornographic.

It was women in nightclothes.

It was rarely any nudity.

Sometimes there'd be someone in a tub, but they were really covered up.

And it's like the how radically?

I mean, that people from that era, if they would just walk out on the street of New Orleans today, they would be like, oh my gosh, right?

Why are people walking around dressed like, right.

You know, or barely dressed?

Because corsets and a petticoat with, you know, their ankles exposed.

Yeah, for sure, for sure.

So culture has changed a lot.

The cultural context has changed a great deal.

A Psycho Delicious conversation is meant for educational and entertainment purposes only.

It is no substitute for therapy and should not be treated as such.

If you feel a need for real therapy, you should consult your local provider, Google therapy, or therapists in your area.

Check with community mental health or a suicide hotline if you are feeling suicidal.

Mike and Morgan welcome your questions, feedback or dilemmas.

Feel free to send us an email at a psychodelicious conversationmail.com that is a psycho delicious P S Y C H O D E L I C I o u s conversationmail.com the view views.

Expressed on this podcast are solely the opinions of Mike Stratton and Morgan Bowen and do not reflect the views or opinions of any site broadcasting this podcast.

Replication of this podcast without written permission is strictly prohibited.

This is WLNZ Lansing.

You're listening to LCC Connect, a weekly program that features the voices, vibes and vision of Lansing Community College.

To find out more about LCC Connect programs or to listen on demand, Visit us@lccconnect.org LCC Connect, voices, vibes, Vision.