Episode Lineup:

Who's that Star? – Guest: Shannon Dunivon, LCC Senior Director of Financial Aid / Hustle & Heart Will Set You Apart

Boots 2 Books – Guests: Roy Fernandez & Dillon Bowling, LCC Center for Veteran & Family Support / Change Your Socks, Hydrate, & Drive On (Reintegration, Pt. 2)

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**** Producer's Note: The following is a general transcript of LCC Connect's weekly radio program. Contents include but may not be limited to podcasts, program imaging, announcements, and PSAs. More detailed and accurate transcripts of the podcast episodes featured in this broadcast can be found at LCCconnect.com or by following the links provided in the show notes of this episode. ****

Hey, hey, hey. This is Lisa A. And you're listening to who's that Star? On LCC Connect at Lansing Community College.

Who's that Star Is a behind the scenes show where I sit down and talk with the employees at the college.

This is an inside look at LCC where you have a chance to learn about their passions, projects and what inspires them both in their work and personal lives. I'm your host, Lisa Alexander and I'm so excited to get a chance to talk to all the people who make LCC great.

This show is for you to get to know the people that work at Lansing Community College a little bit more and see what makes them tick. Are you ready? Okay, let's find out who's that Star.

Today's episode is about access, opportunity and the people who work behind the scenes to make college possible for so many students. My guest today is someone who is deeply committed to student success and to removing barriers that can often stand in the way of higher education.

Today, Star believes in making complex systems easier to understand and works to ensure that students and families feel supported every step of the way.

With a career rooted in financial aid and higher education, today's star has dedicated their work to to breaking down stigmas and creating more equitable access to college.

Through leadership, collaboration and a strong belief in transparency, they continue to make a meaningful impact on students and the broader college community.

Along the way, today's Star has held leadership roles across higher education and state level organizations, supporting financial aid programs, leading student services and helping institutions work more effectively. Together, each experience strengthened their commitment to helping students not just access college, but successfully navigate it.

Education has also played an important role in today's Star's journey, earning a Bachelor's of Science in Business with a focus on Public relations from Ferris State University and a Master's of Business Administration and Leadership Studies from Baker College, a foundation that continues to shape how they lead and serve today at Lansing Community College. Today's star lead with purpose, passion and a deep belief in the power of education to change lives. So are you guys ready to meet today's star?

Drumroll, please. Today's star is Shannon Donovan. Shannon, welcome to who's at Star. I'm so glad you're here.

Well, I'm glad to be here. And I'm glad to be here with a fellow bulldog. Go Ferris.

That's right.

And you know, myself and the financial aid team really value and respect you. You lead with such kindness and humor and approachability and everything that you do to help navigate the college experience.

For students we recognize. So it's good to be with you here today.

Well, I appreciate it. We're giving a little hint, but the financial aid folks are my peeps. I really enjoy coming over there. I have a good time with you all.

You have a great team and you inherited from a good leader and I see that you're still leading well too. And I was. So I'm happy for that. So thank you for being on the show.

So for folks who may not know yet, what is your role at LCC and how do you usually explain what you do?

You are so right about having a great team.

I am just incredibly blessed to have so in financial aid there are 16 staff members, soon to be 18, two new people starting soon, one next week and then one coming up here. So 18 staff members, three student employees. But my role in the financial aid office, I serve as senior director of financial aid.

In that role help ensure students can access and afford their education while also making sure that staying compliant that the college stays compliant with federal, state and institutional different regulations. But I usually explain that my role is really sitting at the intersection of student access and policy and operations.

Supporting students directly, but also working to build systems and processes behind the scenes to just help make financial aid work more effectively. But I cannot do that without the amazing team.

I've worked at several different colleges, universities, organizations where and this is just the best team that I've ever been around. They are so student success focused and they go the extra mile to really help students and they know their stuff.

So they stay busy and also work to administer $48.9 million.

So the students at Lansing Community College with their financial aid, which is through the federal government, state of Michigan and then institutional aid and then also you do foundation with foundation scholarships that they offer students. But all of that administered $48.9 million towards student accounts. And yes, it's a great, great department.

But that's my role and how I usually explain the work that's done in that office.

That's a lot. Financial aid is not an easy area in a lot of different ways. Like you said about just the procedures and process.

But money is a difficult, you know, circumstance like people can get upset, not understand why they don't get certain things. So it's not an easy job to do, but it's one that's really, like, valuable, and it does allow people access to an education.

But listening to you talk about what you do, you can just kind of hear, like, your values really come through. So that brings me to my next question. What values guide how you show up at work and in life?

The values would really be integrity and a strong commitment to doing what's right for students. Just always doing what's in their best interest, because students are at the heart of everything that we do in financial aid.

You are so right that it is complex and it can be very emotionally charged. Money's a very personal thing and so really need to lead with compassion and understanding. I do value collaboration.

I believe that the best outcomes come from bringing people together.

A value, though, that's really important to me is from TED Lasso. Have you ever watched TED Lasso? Apple tv? It's a great show, but just curiosity over judgment is a theme in TED Lasso, and I just love that.

And that's a value that helps guide how I show up to work in life. Is that taking time to understand situations before reacting and going with curiosity over judgment.

Oh, wow, I've never heard of that. I've heard of the name, but I'll never really. Because I don't have Apple tv, but I never really paid attention to that. But that's good.

Curiosity over judgment. Judgment.

So sometimes people are so quick to judge someone or a situation, and I think it's important of the value of just being curious instead.

So instead of judging something or someone or situation, coming from a place of curiosity where you want to learn more to help you, and that approach, I feel like helps with challenges to become more solutions. Focused mindset.

Well, yeah, I like that, though, curiosity over judgment. Because I know sometimes, as I'm getting older, I think I just sometimes will go to judging, you know, like, you should do this, you should do that.

And instead of, like, I can reframe that, be curious about why someone wants to do something, like, you know, and then you can make it more information versus just shutting down somebody with a judgment statement or something like that. So thank you for that. I love that. I'll use that. So in thinking about Your role and your leadership.

What kind of impact do you hope to have on students or your colleagues?

I really hope to have the impact where students feel supported, informed, and confident in navigating financial aid, because financial aid is so overwhelming. And so I really do want them to feel supported. I want the.

For colleagues, I really hope to create a culture where people feel trusted and encouraged and comfortable sharing ideas and. And overall, I would say that, Lisa, that the impact is just to make people help them feel seen. I feel like everyone wants to feel seen.

And so the impact is.

But then ultimately, in terms of my position, just really seeking to leave systems and processes stronger than they were when I started here and making a lasting impact to have financial aid be more approachable and easier to understand.

Yeah.

Because that's very. Financial aid is difficult in the sense of, like, oh, Pell grants, loans, all these different scholarships. And, you know, I have to discuss it.

I'm not an expert, and I don't try to. And I definitely refer to your department, but you have to have a little bit idea, and it's. It's still complex for me, and I have to deal with it.

So I appreciate how you came into this position. You led, but you let people do what they did expertly. Right. Like, you didn't come in, changing up a whole bunch of stuff. Not that I could see.

And you made the area still inviting so people could come in there. Cause I used to go over there and crash and do everything. I was like, oh, they're gonna have a new director.

They're probably not gonna let me come over there. But I have been so welcomed over there, and I just. I love the environment.

Like I said, I love your staff, but I also like your ideologies and the things that you wan. To help keep everybody together, work together, and then make the student feel supported. So I definitely share and appreciate that.

I'm glad you are who you are and when you came into this position, because I know for me, as an outsider, I was worried.

Well, I'm glad you are who you are, Lisa. And you make our office and an environment a better place, too.

Yeah. Because on the low, people don't know this, but financial aid throws down. Okay. And they have all the best parties.

They have the best, like, potlucks, and I always seem to get an invitation. So they are always gonna be my people, and I'm always gonna be supportive of them.

But let's kind of shift gears a little bit, and let's talk about some things personal, you know, about you, what's something you love learning about or geeking out on?

Well, I really love learning about people, and I get that from my father. So growing up, you know, we'd go to a restaurant, and my father would say to the waitress, so, how long have you worked there?

What is your favorite part about this job? What do you find most challenging about being a waitress? You know, he'd ask all these questions, and sometimes people would kind of feel like, okay.

Like annoyed or something. Like, okay. But then some people, too, it's just they could tell that my father really wanted to learn about them.

And it goes back to the whole thing about feeling seen and stuff, too. And so something that I love learning about is just learning about people. And so I carry that same trait.

And I'm very genuine in the fact that I truly do want to learn about people. Because when you learn about people, you learn about so many other things, too.

I mean, you learn about their different hobbies or the things that they're struggling with, or the things that their successes, their wins. It opens up the door to so much other things that you can learn about when you just learn about people as people.

Right? And you write about being seen, like a lot of people want to be seen.

And sometimes life just makes it where people are in such a rush, they don't take the time just to ask, you know, how are you? Or what's going on? And so I like that about your daddy. I think that's a good thing.

He did care about people, and that's a good thing to inherit, you know. Well, what do you enjoy doing in your free time?

Oh, well, in my free time, I really enjoy the outdoors. I love nature. I love visiting national parks. I went with some girlfriends a few years ago, too, in one visit to visit eight national parks.

We encamped outside and hiked and so visiting different national parks, hiking. I like thrifting. I get super excited going to thrift stores and finding good deals. These pants I'm wearing today were $3.

No.

Yeah, they were, actually. So yesterday I went two thrifting and tags. I like to look at the tags of the colors. See how excited I get about thrifting the tags.

Yesterday, Pink color was 75% off, green was 50% off. I was going crazy with finding different things. And so I got these pants yesterday. They're $3. I washed them, and they're cute.

They're so comfortable and just finding good deals, thrifting. So I love thrifting. Love, of course, you know, spending time with my family. I have an awesome, supportive partner. And then we have four kids.

Two of my kids, two bio, two step. And they're all very close in age, two are in college, two are in high school.

Oh, wow.

And so love spending time with my family. And then also something that I really enjoy doing in my free time.

It's something personal, but I would like to share it if you're open to hearing about it.

I am.

So I am in recovery and I go to AA meetings and I like to talk about it because I truly believe that it's important to recover out loud. Sometimes there's this thought that alcoholic is a homeless person living under a bridge or something, and that's just not how it always is.

And so I go to AA meetings. I have an awesome group of sober sisters we call each other. And I read books about sobriety. I listen to to podcasts about sobriety.

And I just love talking about my recovery journey. So I know that's an odd thing to say about something I like to do in my free time, but it inspires me and gives me life to talk about recovery.

So that's another thing I like to do in my spare time too.

Yeah. No, well, first, I think it's brave, right, to talk about that because people not are always curious and they do want to judge. Right.

And so for you to be open to share that one that helps other people because it's okay. And there's not a specific way a person looks when they go through different problems and things like that. So.

And I just think that's super cool and I think that it can help somebody. So I'm proud of you for that and I appreciate you sharing that. But the thing that really gets me is you like to sleep outside in tents.

I do. I would rather sleep outside in tents than in a hotel.

Oh, no. Oh, no. See? Are you a hotel glam camper? I want a air condition. I want a nice bed. I want a working toilet. I cannot do.

And then the older I get, I can't lay down on that higher ground. So, like, it's amazing that you like that. And like the bugs. That's a whole. Oh, I'm a. I'm a bugaphobe.

So I hate, like, other people don't see bugs, but I see em. And so I'm swatting and doing everything else. So that's too funny that you like to go outside and camp and do all of that.

And you know, that's how I feel about hotels. So it's interesting because hotels, they really gross me Out. Sometimes I think about, oh, so many people have stayed in this room, in this bed.

And then, yeah, it just staying intense and kind of being one with nature. That's funny to me, Shannon.

I'm sorry, but that cracks me up because. Yeah, I didn't even think about that. I do clean, like we do Lysol, the beds down and do all that kind of stuff. But I can see where.

Yeah, when you think about it, you like what? I'd rather be outside. But yeah, them bugs, them bugs run me in quicker than a mug. So, yeah, it's funny. But thank you for sharing that.

I appreciate it and for the laugh because that tickled me. As we reflect a little. What's a life lesson or what lesson life has taught you that really sticks with you?

Something that really sticks with me is that you don't have to have everything figured out all at once. That really. That progress is often built through small, consistent steps.

And so I feel like a lesson is sometimes I have felt before that I have to have a solution. I have to fix everything right away. But a life lesson that I think about a lot is the power of the pause.

Instead of responding right away or taking action right away, that it's okay to pause and to think about what's happening and kind of like put everything together. And I feel like that helps. Also a lesson about just staying adaptable and trusting the process of things.

Yeah. That pausing can save you a lot of headache and like anxiety. A lot of times people have anxiety because they want an immediate solution.

They want to get something. They want to be in action. Right. And sometimes just stopping breathing, thinking about things, it can make your life a lot easier.

Yeah.

In this day of instant gratification, people are so used to having, you know, we have our phones on us all the time and everything feels so connected through technology. But I feel like the more connected we appear to be through all those methods, the more distance we create amongst each other.

But people are so used to, because of that instant gratification through technology, having responses right away.

And so the power of the pause is really important, especially I feel like when people are feeling emotional or heated, that it really helps when you can pause and think about stuff and just put some space between things.

Well, yeah, no, I agree with that. You got a lot of little gems over here, Shannon. I think I'm going to have to start using. I like the terminology that you're using today.

So you may hear me, the power of the pause. You may be hearing me say stuff like that.

So Oh, I like using that. The power of the pause. You know, another term that I really like that I think about a lot too, is hustle and heart will set you apart.

I like that too.

That is true.

That's a little saying. Hustle and heart will set you apart.

It will.

Yeah.

That more than sometime an iq. Well.

And I think the big part of that statement is the heart.

Yeah.

So you're the. Because when you truly have, like, student success in your heart or you care for people in your heart, that. That's.

So when I say hustle and heart will set you apart, it's. I would say 90%'s the heart.

Yeah, but the hustle too, though, you know, you have to do something.

That's right. That's right.

Work won't happen just you sitting down. You gotta make sure that you engage and do things and are curious, and that's where that hustle come in. So I agree. I like that terminology too.

Okay, I got three things I'm stealing from Shannon today. But what's a challenge that has helped shape who you are today?

I mean, I. To go back to the sobriety thing, Lisa. I mean, that's a challenge that has shaped who I am. And to work wise.

The federal government is a consistent challenge that I'm facing. That, you know, they're constantly changing their policies of things or putting out new things.

And that's a challenge that has shaped me in terms of my financial aid world and mindset.

And, you know, financial aid is so complicated, but because we have to follow all these policies and procedures and everything, sometimes it makes us seem like we are against helping the student. Like, for instance, satisfactory academic progress. SAP. A student falls in violation, they have to complete an appeal and do all these things. Things.

And it seems like we're putting a barrier for the student when really it's not us, it's the federal government. And we have to follow those procedures and stuff.

So the federal government and some other policies and procedures, and I understand why we have to follow them, but sometimes that can be a challenge.

For sure, it can be a challenge, especially when someone's. Especially with the SAP. So first, I agree with SAP. Right. I think that everybody needs a certain standard to stay accountable to.

And the 70% completion ratio and the C average or 2.0, I think that that's doable. But I also know people have lives and things happen. And so I see where that can be a challenge to students.

But one thing that I really think that the financial aid department here does well is that they're good listeners, and they try to work with students to help them navigate those different challenges.

That's not from lcc, from the federal government, but your department does a really good job with that and helping people to figure out what's the best next step for them financially.

Absolutely. They're so patient and caring and knowledgeable. They really do an awesome job. Yes. We definitely have a fantastic financial aid team.

You do, for sure. So, finally, just our last question.

If someone is listening right now and trying to find their place at lcc, what advice would you want to share with them?

I'd like to tell them to really focus on building relationships and understanding how the different areas of the college connect and how they can work together.

We have in the financial aid staff meetings each week, we have a guest speaker who comes in for about 15 minutes to talk about what they do at LCC and answer questions. And that's so helpful, I think, just being able to understand people in their position, and I feel it's been helpful.

So I would say building relationships, understanding what people do at the college, being not afraid to ask questions or get involved, but being patient with yourself, too, because I feel like finding your place takes time and just being open and engaged and willing to learn.

Well, Shannon, I want to thank you so much for sharing your story and your perspective with us today. It has been truly a pleasure having you on who's that Star Today? I don't think I've cackled like that in a minute, and so I really enjoy that.

Is there anything you'd like to say? Closing out?

Well, I really appreciate the time. I love listening to your podcast, and I appreciate the opportunity to be on it and just I'm really excited to be part of the LCC team. I'm still.

I consider myself fairly new. August will be two years, and so still fairly new.

My background is in higher ed and in financial aid, and I never really thought about LCC as a place to work, but one of my old colleagues that I worked with, Dr. Will Emerson, who he's the HHS works with, I love Will. Oh, he's fantastic.

Yeah, we work together over at Michigan Works.

Oh, great. Yeah. And so it's.

So I worked with him in another position, and he spoke so highly of lcc, and I remember listening to him thinking, wow, yeah, maybe I should take a look at LCC as a potential place to work. And so when the position became available, it was because of Dr. Will Emerson that got me interested in thinking about LCC.

So I feel like that the reason I say that well number one, to say Dr. Will Emerson is awesome and amazing and such an asset to the company.

I'll see if I can get him to come on.

Oh, he'd be a fantastic person to interview. Yes, but so I say it to talk about him but also to say that you never know who is listening and so or who you might impact about lcc.

So when we are out in the community or talking to our friends and family that the things that we say about this awesome place that we work is important because you might be impacting the next person in a different who is hired, the next new hire or the next new student.

So we all have I feel like a responsibility to help with the enrollment numbers and also the HR and for the hires too that it's like we want great people to work here and so what we say about the institution is important.

It does matter.

Yes, it does.

Well, thanks again Shannon. And just like that, another star shines a little brighter. Thank you for joining me on who's that Star?

Where we celebrate the people who make LCC more than a college. We make it a community. I'm Lisa A. And I'll see you next time you've been listening to who's that Star? I'm Lisa A.

And you can listen to this episode of of who's that Star and other shows from LCC Connect anytime [email protected] thank you for listening. Catch me next time to find out who's that Star?

Featuring the faculty, staff, students and others that help to make Lansing's premier college what it is today. LCC Connect Mid Michigan's connection to Lansing Community College.

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The LCC Tutoring Services at LCC has developed several options to work with students in their busy schedules, including WebEx tutoring sessions, math exam prep parties and the writing center. Resources include quick print stations, chemistry and anatomy models, microscopes, and several other tools to help students.

Tutors may also be available for pre scheduled after hours appointments. To find out more about tutoring services, visit lcc. Edu Tutoring.

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Welcome to B2B boots to books, the show where we explore the journeys of veterans and military connected students as they navigate their paths from service to the classroom and beyond. I'm Dustin Abrego.

And I'm Rebecca Allen, your hosts. Each week, we'll dive into powerful stories of resilience, determination, and success.

Whether you're a veteran yourself, a military family member, or simply inspired by the strength of those who serve, you're in the right place.

Let's turn the page and start this incredible journey together.

Hello and welcome back to B2B. We are again joined by Roy Fernandez.

Dylan.

All right.

And Rebecca.

And Rebecca.

Okay, so we literally did cut for content aspects and then we're gonna get back into it. So we were again focusing and talking about. So this is part two. Please listen to part one, otherwise you're gonna be super lost.

Talking about reintegration. Dylan, you had a really great point. We had to cut. I don't know if you can pick it back up.

Yeah, yeah, I can. I'm kept in my head.

Oh, yeah. Locked in.

Well, I just. I won't ever forget this. We had talked about this before, where people, they.

They come across at a time and a point in their life where they either progress as a person or they regress. We talked about it in the lobby, not in the podcast, honestly. But this Was one of those points for me.

Whenever I was in that U haul and my little brother, he asked, what are you gonna do? And I was, I was scared, I was lost. I literally did not know what I was gonna do. And it wasn't the fact that I didn't have a job.

It wasn't the fact that whenever I got out, I literally had probably 10 bucks to my name. I was worried that I didn't have anything to do.

I.

What is your purpose?

What is my purpose? My purpose was to get up and serve my country. My purpose was to get up and be the best artilleryman that I could be. That was my job in the army.

For everyone on listening to the podcast, my job was to blow stuff up and to protect the infantry elements on the ground and to train and to be ready to deploy at any time in this nation's history, foreign and domestic.

And whenever I was driving that U haul, driving home, mind you, any experience I had before the military, I was in high school, living in the impoverished area of Dallas, Texas, Fort Worth, Texas. And I knew nothing else. I literally knew nothing else but the military and Texas. That's it. I didn't, I didn't know anything else.

So when we got back to Texas, because that's where I first went when I got out, I had nowhere else to go. I didn't have any money to go anywhere else. I barely made it back to Texas by that. I had like 10 bucks in my bank account.

I remember we went to sleep and me, my wife and my son were able to live in this one bedroom shack. Her grandparents had this property and they were like, you can live in what used to be a pool house.

And they turned into like a stay at home house or something. One bedroom. Our son stayed in the washing machine room because that's the only place that we could put them.

It was literally a shack, a one bedroom shack.

And I woke up, I remember the day after I woke up, I had spent the entire night getting everything from the U Haul parked the U Haul, drove back, went to sleep, Woke up at 5:30 in the morning on the dot without even my alarm. And I hopped out of bed and, and I went to go put on my pts. I was scared. I was like, oh. And then my wife, what are you doing?

I was like, I'm gonna be late for PT because usually I tried to get to PT early that way I was in late. So I'm putting on my pts. And then she's like, you're. You're not out. I was like, what do I do today?

I was like, I don't want to go looking for a job today. I, I didn't know what I was going to do. And it was at that point that I realized that I needed to figure out what to do.

But that just made me even more depressed because at this point, I was born in 98. You can do the math on that.

When is my birthday?

But.

And it goes back to Roy's point where, you know, you feel like you did so much because I came from such a bad area, I came from such a bad background.

You know, my father wasn't nothing and my mom did her best to become what she was, but she still, you know, she wasn't no rich person, but I love her for it. She's hard working woman, but you know what I'm saying. But I did all this and now I'm back to square one. I'm behind square one. I don't own anything.

I don't own my car, I don't own the house that we live in. And the house we live in is a one bedroom shack in Cleburne, Texas, on the middle of nowhere.

And now you own yourself again. Yes. Because before you all didn't.

Yep.

And I'm not making an ethical point. It's like everything was planned out, everything was all this stuff, right. And now, and now it's like now.

You gotta figure there was a way to tie your boots. It's left over, right? There's literally every little thing, every inch of your life. There's a way that you wanted to be held to a certain standard.

And do you always focus on doing that? So I was in Japan for about two and a half years. It was a bit of a culture shock going from the United States.

I was in Camp Lejeune in North Carolina with a Combat Logistics Regiment 27. And I got orders to go out to Japan. So I got assigned to VMGR 152C130 squadron. Had no idea what I was doing.

I just got a bunch of certifications and qualifications in my role in logistics. That's what, that's what I did when I was in the service. And the unit was moving from Okinawa, Japan, up to Iwakuni.

So they were moving islands, literally the whole islands. While continuing to support the Marine Expeditionary Force was just everything that the Marine Corps does in the Asian Pacific.

So there was a lot going on there. But same things like when I was getting out, I was easing and I had thankfully 30 days of leave saved up.

I Didn't take a lot of time off when I was in. So me and my buddy were able to. My groomsman, his best man. We were able to set it up to where we both got out at the exact same time.

We were both out on a flight out of Japan to California. And then we got put up in these barracks. You want to talk about a bad taste in your mouth?

The last week of my Marine Corps experience was in the worst barracks that I have ever, ever seen, Been a part of mold, disgusting linen, everything was just awful.

Thankfully, I knew I had buddies that had gotten out before me that lived in California, that I was able to set up a thing where me and my buddy that were in that same room, we just stayed the night at my buddy's house. I'm like, there's no way. This is just. This was filthy. It was just the worst thing ever.

So we were able to stay at my buddy's place for that week while getting all of our EAS paperwork out. My buddy got stuck with 24 hour duty.

Oh, no.

He was so mad. He was so mad.

Sorry.

Amateur civilian here.

What the heck?

We're all knowing about, sir.

So the 24 hour duty is when you essentially are assigned to pretty much be kind of the police of the barracks that day. So it's a 24 hour stint.

It's the rain on duty.

Oh, okay, thanks.

Barracks, your battalion, your division. It's just staff duty in the army.

So you just stay there for a full 24 hours. You just make sure no one's doing things that are too crazy.

See the shadow people in the corner at three o' clock in the morning?

Yeah, but you have to be awake.

You have to be awake. You cannot go to sleep.

Very smart.

So what I would do when I had a duty was I would tell my senior that, hey, I'm gonna go and make rounds around the barracks. Just, you know, patrol, make sure everything is good. Took a nap in my room.

I just drank bangs the entire time.

15 Minutes. Anyways, that was that experience, kind of leaving at the very end. So I was like, oh, this is a terrible taste in my mouth.

Like, you didn't have to give me the best barracks in the world, but you didn't have to give me the worst that exists. Because this was pretty. This was probably like barracks that were established in like the 60s. It was just.

It was bad.

Final chance to try and get that VA connection reading.

Right.

Right.

Once that was done, me and my buddy, we both now, we fly different ways. He's the Boston. I'm the Detroit.

Oh, my God.

And that's it. And now I thought going to Japan.

Was a culture shock, but you were in North Carolina.

I was in North Carolina my first year in the fleet when I got out of the schoolhouse. Then I got assigned orders to Japan for about two and a half years.

Okay, we don't stay in one spot.

No, I thought he was living in North Carolina and I was really confused. I was like, wait, why are you doing?

But once I, you know, left my buddy, that was like the last bit. And it was, it. It's like you go every day from waking up with those guys, doing everything your job, pt, working out at night.

He was my roommate for pretty much two years.

Every single day we were hanging out together, we were working out after we were got an opportunity to go out, enjoy the nightlife, you know, whatever it is. We were always hanging out, good group of guys. And then all of a sudden, it's gone.

Gone.

Gone.

Yep.

So now you're trying to figure out what do I do? I have no idea. Same thing. I had no idea what I was doing. So I thought, okay, well, time to use the GI Bill benefits, right?

Okay, maybe what I want to do is the civilian version of what I was doing in the service. I was an embarkation specialist. So I was logistics. I was like, all right, well, supply chain management, that's what I'll just go and do. It's not.

Not what I wanted to do, it's just what I thought I want to do because it's what I did for four years just wasn't the way. But one of the weirdest experiences I had. Haven't had it to this day since then, but it was.

I remember I was eating a bowl of cereal and this was in that 30 day window where I had 30 days of leave. So I had 30 days of vacation saved up. So I got out a month early. Look, and I still got paid like twice on the 1st and 15th.

And then all of a sudden I'm eating a cereal and I lose all feeling in my hand with the spoon. And I'm just, I'm looking at the spoon, looking at the cereal and the milk. I'm like, why don't I feel anything in my hand?

The weirdest thing I ever experienced in my life. I just, I couldn't explain it.

And I just still to this day try to like, was that just like a, like an extreme culture shock to my nervous system, body. Whatever it is, I don't know what it was.

It was.

I Haven't had it since, thankfully. But it was just one of those, like, weird, weird situations.

Just a mini stroke.

It's okay, whatever it is, But I just carried on and with my day, and I always.

Ibuprofen. Socks.

Change your socks.

Change your socks.

Drink water.

Every now and then when I have conversations with this, like, like, and we talk about it, like, I'll bring it up. And like, it's just one thing that for some reason happened to me, and I've always remembered it and I've stuck with it.

And I've always told people, like, hey, this is something that happened. It was weird. Doubt it happens to everybody. Probably doesn't happen to anybody. Probably it's just me.

I don't know.

But here I am.

There's always that moment when you have that really, really big life change where you just kind of disassociate from everything that you're doing in the moment, and then you are conscious of the fact that you have done that. So I think you'd probably be surprised at how many people have had similar experiences.

Maybe not like, I can't feel the spoon in my hand kind of thing, but there's probably a lot of people that have similar experiences with that.

Well, I mean, it all floods and hits you. That's the time frame where you're, like, actually sitting with your thoughts. Like, it's times in the shower and other.

Like, if you're just sitting and like, there's no one else around. And realizing all of it is like, your brain's like, oh, wait, you're here now. And you're like, I'm where?

Yep.

It's like, if you try to mess with people, it's like you realize now that your tongue and your mouth is uncomfortable. And now you're like, oh, now I'm aware of breathing. And I'm like, I have to focus on it. And it's like, stop it.

And then it's. It's like the.

The.

The flooding. It's almost. I would say. I would. I would equate it to, like, the stages of grief. A lot of veterans get stuck in that depression stage.

I was in it for, shoot, three, four years. It got real dark. Like, it. I was not.

Okay. Yeah, you were gonna say something.

I just. I was.

I was.

I mean, you're. What you were just talking about. That's like. I feel like for the longest time I said that. Mental things. It's not a thing.

One thing I always, like, remembered from my drill instructor was you poke a body, and if it does not have a brain on that body's not going to feel it. And you can do whatever you want to have about. You can kick it, you can hit it, you can punch it, you can slice it and cut it, whatever.

The body's not gonna move. You attach a brain to it, all of a sudden it's got feeling, right? So we were always taught mental strengthness to, like, always, like, numb the pain.

Numb the pain. Mission first. This is critical. This is what you're doing. This is your job.

You have to be able to respond. Like, it makes sense in what you do it. But when. Like, that is your existence.

And, like, it's good for the time.

Correct.

But when you get out and you have done nothing but been on a stress response for more than, you know, four years or.

Correct.

Thirteen.

Seven.

Seven.

Four.

Four.

You know, it kind of hits you different whenever you come back. And now everything's calm. Oh, my God. There's no instant, what am I gonna do? And then, next thing you know, you're always on edge.

You're always on edge. You always got to be. I still, to this day, if I'm late to something, I beat myself up. I think we've talked. Oh, I beat myself up all the time.

If I'm late to something, even if I am one minute late, I freak out. I remember when I was a teenager, going to the grocery store was easy. You know, walk in there. Going to the grocery store now is a nightmare.

If I don't take my meds that the VA gives me, I will have a panic attack. And it's not the fact that I'm worried about myself. It's the fact that whenever I go to the grocery store, I go with my wife and my. My son.

And if something were to break out, which, nine times out of 10, nothing's going to happen. But if something were, I got to focus on saving myself and saving them.

And you're processing those thoughts, which is a learned experience, right. Of what's occurred.

And it's happening. 24, 7.

You're always imagine going down the aisle to get some milk, and in your head, you're thinking about five different scenarios that happen right then and there. Every veteran can attest to this. How many times do y' all go, and you're like, okay, what's my quickest exit out of this building?

It happens all the time. And living like that, whenever you get out and you have no purpose, you have no mission anymore, it eats away at you.

And next thing you know, you're in The VA doing group therapy with a bunch of other veterans, and all you're hearing is people crying about it, and you're realizing this group therapy isn't working for you, and then that just makes you more depressed. Something that the VA and the military doesn't address. Well, the VA just throws pills at it. It does. That's all it does. They just throw pills at you.

And the group therapy doesn't work. And then the single therapy, it's like a 15 minute session. They talk and then you get out.

If I hadn't gotten back into sports, if I hadn't started coaching again, purpose I.

If I hadn't found a purpose, if I hadn't started going back to school, I would hate to think about how my son would have had to hold that folded flag. And everyone knows what that means.

Sure.

It got that dark for me and it's. I know I'm getting choked up. I'm sorry. It's just, it's. It's something that.

Don't apologize to me again, but I hear you.

It's something that all veterans. It's not just me. It's something that all veterans deal with. I don't know if these two have gotten to the point that I got.

Sure.

But whenever you go, your entire existence up until that point of you're just a object and a bigger machine, and now you are no longer an object needed, it really displaces you. It really takes away from who you.

Are as a person.

And I don't think people understand how demoralizing and how horrible that is. And that's why I'm always advocating for reintegration for veterans.

Like, I always try to put on the smile and talk to veterans who come through the veteran building. That's why I'm always, you know, chatting it up and y' all are always telling me, hey, don't be so loud, and everything.

Because I know that there are veterans that were or are still in the spot that I was at. And because I know how that feels. I don't want them to feel that. Sure don't want to.

There should be no reason why a person who put their life on hold to defend your nation, whether it's papers or going to the front lines, should ever have to feel like that, ever. And just like you said, you're getting out and they put you in the worst barracks, man. Threw you away like trash.

Right.

You know, I know a lot of veterans, too, probably feel ashamed, you know, of their feelings and what they're thinking about and their Mental state and everything.

And like you said, if you don't have some type of words of encouragement or that interaction that you have with people, sometimes it can be difficult because they're trying to suppress those emotions just as much as anyone else. And that's not the right thing to do.

Don't do that. Like I said, talk about it.

That's your training. That's whatever. I mean, to make stereotypes about men as well.

Like layering that on the amount of people in my office that I'm like, hey, you're doing a good job. And they start crying because, like, there's just a lot going on. And like, that's okay.

And it's very interesting to me, the amount of times that I've had people that will. The just getting out aspect. I understand you had to do that. Not judging, not being anything like that. Right.

But then, like, are here and they're like, these kids in my classes, they've got soft hands and I can't whatever about stuff. And I was like, that's really weird. And it seems like you can't handle your emotions.

I'm not going to say that out loud because that's going to go over well.

Right.

But. But like, trying to navigate that of like.

You're not wrong, though.

As someone on the outside, I almost wish there wasn't a class that you had when you got out because I think that gave you a false sense of, this will teach me how to like, everything. And I was like, bro, there's no class for people that weren't in.

It's just like we all kind of were, like, stumbling around spending way too much money at school and like, people were still not doing it. So, like, like a false sense of security. Yeah. You kind of are at the same place as other people. It might not feel like it.

Yeah.

They just probably got better at lying about it than you all did. You didn't have a choice. And they're all just like, I'm whatever. And I was like, I see you make money, but, like, you're not fun to be around. Right.

I know people like that.

Right.

So I cut you off, bro. I apologize.

You know, when.

When you're in class, I'm sure everyone's had this where, like, the professor's asking, like, someone has a question, and they're just like, if someone has that question nine times out of 10, probably 10 times, and someone else has that question too.

Yeah.

So when you're a veteran and you're struggling through things, don't think that you're the only person that's ever struggled. Yeah, you're not, I promise you right now, you know, and I felt like that too, where it was like, I'm the only one that's kind of going through.

So I always suppressed my emotions. And like, sometimes that was some challenge that I always had with my wife, even though I try to communicate as much as possible.

But I would always think that, like, a lot of emotions, like depression, anxiety, and other things like that, like, it was just a construct of your brain. And it wasn't literally, it wasn't an actual thing.

And it wasn't until several years of integrating with my wife about these conversations, of opening up and recognizing that actually, yes, these are a real thing. I've just suppressed them for so many years because that's what we were trained to do.

That is one thing.

So in our first part, you had mentioned having, you know, life changes, having job changes, things like that, and trying to navigate that and trying to stay strong, especially for your wife, in front of your wife, in front of your family. Dylan, you mentioned. Yeah, same thing. I've been in the same boat, too.

I know probably almost every veteran I've met has been in the same boat, whether it's been after they got out and trying to understand reintegration or if there's a job loss, job change, anything like that. I think the really important part is you are not alone in that. Like, there are so many of us and even, even civilians. Like, it's.

Everyone at some point is going to have that struggle, is going to have that feeling of, I'm in my darkest moment. I'm going through this massive change. This is not where I thought, I'm back. I'm ten steps back from step one at this point.

So I think it's really important, especially for those who are listening right now, you are not going through this on your own. You're not the only one to have gone through this.

You're not alone.

Not, not to diminish what you're going through, but there are others who have been through something similar and who are there to provide that assistance.

So if I could give any piece of advice to any, to any veteran, because it's been about reintegration and we talked about, you know, the bads, I want to put some good out there. And if I could give any advice to any veteran that's going to this campus right now who genuinely, he.

They don't, you know, they just don't know, you know, hey, I don't know how to reintegrate I just can't do good. I was, I was. That I couldn't do good with just society in general. Just find your purpose, find your mission. Me, I, I had to find my mission again.

And I say that as a stereotypical term, but find your mission again.

You know, it might not be, say if you're infantry, your mission might not be taking out the bad guy anymore, but find your mission that you can apply to. My mission was to coaching and becoming a teacher.

You know, one is a long term and one I can do right now because I was already certified coach in powerlifting and I also coach boxing out of Team Glass boxing here in Lansing. You know, go visit if you can, but not, not an ad, not an ad, not an ad. But yeah, just go find your mission. Go find that. That is my piece of advice.

Get out there, whatever it could be. I mean, hell, it could be running a mile a day. I know that sounds horrible, but it's something. Just go find your mission. That is my advice.

If you're a mission oriented person like myself, go find something that you can press forward to.

I think if you're in your early stages of reintegration too, I think it's very important to find other veterans within the community.

Whether if it's at a VFW legion, even if you're a student here, come to at least the center for the veterans because we operate on a different wavelength. I have like three to four different groups of friends.

I have friends that I worked with at an organization, I have friends that speak Spanish and I'm in a group with that friends and then I have the group of veterans friends. And each of those groups operates differently, in my opinion.

But the one that I still naturally gravitate to the most and I feel like can be myself the most honestly is still with the veterans because we have gone through that service together. That is something that you can never take away from you and that it's a hardship that you all went through together and you understand it.

Trauma bonded, right?

Yes, exactly.

So if you're in the early stages of getting, you know, you just got out and you're trying to figure things out, find other veterans, have those conversations with them, bond with each other, because they may have a great resource for you that you never even thought of. And then you start talking conversation, one thing leads to another.

Next thing you know, you may be doing something in welding that you never thought was gonna be a thing. That's gonna be a very productive career for you. You could be a truck driver, operator, you can do anything, but you have to get in.

You have to have those conversations and network with. With veterans because it's so beneficial. Honestly, in my opinion, I'm never gonna.

Get it and, like, that's okay. And I recognize that, like, I'm not gonna sign up for the service or to do any of this stuff. I know I'm never gonna get it.

And like, I know I ask a lot of questions, but I want to make sure I understand. I know I'll never actually fully understand. That's okay with me. Right? But for those people, you just need them to get it.

And when you're, like, getting back out or just meeting with things, you just need your people to just get it sometimes, you know, and if you're a.

Civilian listening, don't be scared to ask questions. Obviously, don't ask the.

Don't be dumb.

Don't ask the dumb question.

Have you killed anybody?

Like, don't. But ask questions and, you know, we will answer. You.

You.

We will answer. Nine times out of ten.

Most veterans are itching to answer your question because we get a lot of people that really don't know and we would rather, you know, than go up and answer those dumb questions. Just ask most of us, I promise. Most of us are nice. There are a few out there, but most of us are nice.

Cool. Dylan, thanks for hanging out with us.

Yeah, thank you guys.

Anytime.

Thanks for having us. It was great. Rock on.

Maybe we should do this again. Yeah, for sure.

Yes.

Cool. Make sure to check out part one and reminder that you're not alone.

There's plenty of resources in the local area here in Lansing if you're listening and or stop by the center for Veteran and Family Studies. So thanks so much. You've been listening to B2B boots to books.

Thank you for joining us on this journey through the inspiring stories of veterans and military connected students.

If you've enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review and share it with your community.

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Remember, every story is a step forward.

And together we can build a bridge from Boots to Books.

Until next time, stay strong and keep.

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All right, everybody in the car. Let's go.

What are we gonna do first when we get there, Mom? Go for a hike?

Sure, if you want.

What about canoeing? Can we go canoeing, too?

I don't see why.

What about a bike ride? No, I want to fish. Okay. I've never been fishing.

Honey, we can do it all.

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It's not that far.

Are we there yet?

Yep, we're here already.

No way. Come on. Come on.

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