Shari and Brent sit down with Dr. Rod Berger, an organizational psychologist, bestselling author, and master storyteller. But this isn’t your typical sales podcast - forget the tips and tricks. Instead, you'll hear deep reflections on the stories we tell ourselves, and how those narratives shape both our relationships and our own self-perception.

From anecdotes about his childhood and the fuel behind his curiosity to pinch-me moments like interviewing everyone from Pope Francis to Magic Johnson, Rod shares how authentic storytelling can open doors and strengthen human connection. Brent and Shari challenge the notion that selling is only about hitting targets, reminding everyone that “better people make better salespeople.”

If you’re ready for a heartfelt conversation that’ll make you both feel and think, this episode is for you. Grab your headphones, and let’s dive in.

👤 Connect with Dr. Rod Berger:

✅ “The Narrative Edge” Book:https://geni.us/DrRodBergerNarrative

✅ Website: https://www.drrodberger.com/

✅ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rodbergerpsyd

✅ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@drrodberger/videos

✅ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drrodberger/

👤 Connect with Selling Isn’t Everything:

✅ Official: https://SellingIsntEverything.com 

✅ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@SellingIsntEverything 

✅ LinkedIn (Shari): https://www.linkedin.com/in/sharilevitin

✅ LinkedIn (Brent): https://www.linkedin.com/in/brentadamson 

✅ Brent’s Latest Book, The Framemaking Sale: https://www.theframemakingsale.com/ 

Selling Isn’t Everything is produced by Chris Stone at Cast Ahead:  https://CastAhead.net 

On today's episode of Selling Isn't Everything. You are in for a treat because Brent Adamson and I interview Dr. Rod Berger, an organizational psychologist, bestselling author, and master storyteller. What I love the most about this episode is it wasn't just about the five steps to telling a great story or tricks and tips. Dr. Berger talks a lot about the stories we tell ourselves and how the stories we tell ourselves change how others perceive us, but most importantly, how we perceive ourselves. Take a listen.

Howdy, Rod. So I got a thousand questions for you, but you have made at least recently, if not forever, a living on breaking down, understanding stories, storytelling, sharing stories with others around the world, talking about the power stories. Maybe we start with that. Can you give our audiences a sense for, like, who you are and what you do would be helpful, just so everyone kind of knows where you're coming from.

Sure.

Yeah.

And I'll do my best to do it in a timely fashion. It's great to be on.

I get it, guys.

Yeah. I really appreciate it. Here's what I'll say. Look, I mean, I could go through. I've got my doctorate in clinical psych. I have been professionally and personally curious since I was a little boy. And that has just really taken me down a path that is not something that's been, you know, prescribed or, or something that somebody laid out for me early on. And so I'm a yes guy.

I said yes in a lot of different arenas. I said yes at Vanderbilt's business school almost two decades ago and worked on storytelling in business with graduate students. You know, and I've. I've worked with so many different groups around finding their story. And then I've. I've married that with the media. So I wrote with Forbes for a number of years, Entrepreneur magazine, independent media projects that have taken me around the world. And really, by and large, Brent, I'm just a really lucky guy.

Right? I mean, I sort of turn around and I'm. I'm meeting, you know, the late Pope Francis, or I'm sitting in Los Angeles interviewing Magic Johnson. Like, I. Those are pinch me moments. I understand that. But it's all because I'm curious. And it all started when I was very young, hoping that my late father, who was born in Germany, and. And I can say it because I'm German, you know, he was that sort of.

He was that guy right. There wasn't a lot said. There was a chill in the room regardless of the. The H Vac system. And, you know, he would come back from his travels with work. And I always. As a kid, I wanted to know. Tell me about your trip.

As he was unpacking, and he just really wouldn't share a lot. So back then, that was very frustrating. But I will tell you that it has probably been the fuel that has never left me and has really supercharged my curiosity, wanting to know more, wanting to understand the nuance of people and not. Not what they're doing, I guess, publicly, but. But it's sort of that behind the scenes, it's the elevator that stops between two floors. That's what drives me in so many different ways. And so that led me to my book, which came out a few weeks ago, called the Narrative Edge. Authentic storytelling that meets the moment.

And now I'm here speaking with the two of you and about all that. You.

Congrats. That's amazing. All right, so how does being curious about the world lead to meeting the Pope? Tell me this. Tell me a story.

I mean, you know, look, this is a classic example of anybody who knows me. I'm the kind that if I get an email, I open almost every email I get.

Right.

I just.

Did you get an email from the Pope?

No, I didn't. I know. As I said that, I thought you're gonna probably just say that.

No, Rod, I've been meaning to meet you.

No, I. I got introduced.

I heard you're curious. Okay.

I got introduced to somebody years ago, and I interviewed him.

He had done work at Harvard, and.

And so I was interviewing him about sort of his story. We become friends. Two years later, we find out that not only did we get along for several sort of professional reasons, but he grew up where I grew up. It's just that I'm older than he is, and he went to the competing high school, had no idea. I thought he was from Boston. And so still friends with him. And he connected me with the Refugee Migrant Education Network. And long story short, I got a phone call, and there was a seminar on the refugee crisis in Rome, and I found myself in Rome with UNHCR officials, and all of a sudden, there with the Pope.

So, again, it's just saying yes. That's how my first trip to Africa happened. I said yes to an email on a late Sunday that I thought was spam from a very famous publicist that I thought, I know that name. This can't be real. It was real. And a few weeks later, I was on my way to Dakar, Senegal, to understand child marriage, you know, deep inside Senegal. So.

So. So put me. Put me in the room with the Pope. I'm just curious because it's actually super cool. So are you. Is it a small room? Is it a big room? Is it the entire cathedral? Is. Are you one of a hundred people? Is it just you and him? Are you.

No, it's.

What do you do? What are you feeling? What are you smelling? What are you tasting? What are you hearing? Walk me through it.

Well, it's a surreal experience because I will tell you that I was shocked that he was at 23, that I was with the Pope. I was shocked at his frailty. Physically. That was something that we do not see. And to see somebody and look, this was something. It takes me back to my days in psychology. Like, observing somebody's gait is like the first tip off just to understand sort of where they're coming from. When you would first, you know, meet somebody that you might be working with and engaging in a clinical intake.

His gait was so. There was such. I mean, it was brittle. His gait was brittle is the best way to put it. And so it was really shocking to see that up close. And I don't know why that was. But look, that environment itself, I think, think there are. There are moments in life where the energy in the room is just incredible.

Right.

Did you get to exchange words? Like, what do you say?

I'll tell you, like, what's going through your head. I don't know if I'd share this.

Yeah, go ahead.

What was going through my head was I had just. And I don't know why, and I think it was just the moment. Right. I talk about meeting the moment, but in that moment, I thought about a friend of mine in. In England that I had collaborated with, and we'd become friends, and I had found out from him, I just seen him, and that his wife, very young, had cancer, and it did not look good. And for whatever reason, that was weighing very heavy on my heart so much more than trying to figure out how am I going to get quotes and sound bites for my article on the larger picture and the challenges of refugees.

Right.

We've never had so many refugees across our planet. And so that was really what was driving me. And that was the very first thing that I said to him is that I wanted, you know, I wanted to extend it, to sort of breathe her name into the presence of him. That was really what was lying sort of very heavy, you know, with. Within me.

Actually, I was curious and my. As Brent well knows, I am the daughter of an immigrant. My parents, my mother and her Mother escaped Nazi Germany, were Jewish. And my mother, at 91, is still an advocate for all refugees. And I'm curious, you said that you grew up curious and then you pivoted and met the Pope. And really, from everything I've read about you, you're on a mission. You are very mission driven. This isn't story selling, storytelling to tell a story in corporations to make a ton of money.

I don't see you as somebody who's like, hey, let me tell you how to make more money using stories that you have a real mission to help immigrants. And I'm curious what happened in your past or perhaps as you got older that drew you so much to that cause, because it feels like that mission is what has opened doors for you, if I'm hearing this correctly.

No, cher, you're dead on. And I'd love to extend the conversation even past our interview because of your background and your family's background. I would think that there would be some really interesting layers there and common themes. Look, as a young boy, a desperate need for his father to pay attention to him, I think played a role. And the mystery, sometimes we fill in gaps. And I love that you said, I really appreciate it. And it's, I guess, to my own professional detriment that I, and I want to, I'll share with you, my publisher, Wiley, and sort of the conversation that happened that resulted in the book, you know, but sometimes I think when we don't get answers or we're not sort of, we're not privileged in that moment to be able to experience whatever that story is from that individual, could be a parent, spouse, friend, whatever it is, a child. I think we fill in the gaps a little bit.

And there was such mystery with a man that was so much older than my friend's dads, right? When I was at preschool, I vividly remember looking out the window with a teacher. I see my dad arriving to pick me up and they say, oh, it looks like your grandfather's here. And I thought, one, please don't say that to him, because as his personality, he's not going to take too kindly to that. And two, I knew already I was different, right? And I wasn't even in formal school, I'm just in preschool. So there was such curiosity. And yet I also, I think I'll say this for myself, I don't even know if it's gender specific in this regard, but there's this desire, there was this deep desired me to understand. Like, it's like you start to put paint yourself as almost like a hero or a villain or you're like a superhero. Like, there are all these adventures, right? Like, my favorite books were choose your adventure as a kid.

Like, I just love not having to be told to go down one path. It was like, well, if I go to page 54, Brett and I are going to scale Mount Everest. But if we go, you know, to page 76, maybe we're going deep sea diving or something. Sherry And I've got to pick and choose, right? So I've always had that in me. But, yeah, mission driven. And I will tell you, we were approaching the landing in. In Senegal, in Dakar. I'd never been to the continent.

I will never forget, and I write about this in the book, I'll never forget looking down at a landscape that was foreign to me. It might as well have been another planet. And I just made a decision. It was like, I'm not going to do this for anybody as a way to, in essence, serve somebody else's purpose. I'm going to write, I'm going to tell and share stories that are emotive. Some might call them poetic, that there's a bit of a rhythm to them, but because that's how I feel and if I do that, then I'm at least being authentic to myself. And the response was great from people and mostly a lot of men that would send me notes saying. Because I started daily journals that I would publish when I was in Africa.

And it was like, you know, Rod, we know. I know it's this time, but I'm waiting for your next entry. You know, when are you going to share that? And so that forever changed me. That forever changed me to see people in different positions and to understand that I'm walking into an environment. And I. There are biases that come with that. Like, I've had the experience of young African children seeing me in person as a white face that they've never experienced before. And no one would put that on a bucket list.

But I will tell you that if anyone's had that experience that's listening or watching to us, where someone is seeing you and you are the first person they have seen, that represents something that is life Chant. That is a moment between two humans that you can't script. And if you try to in Hollywood, I don't know if you could replicate that and provide that energy that sort of jumps off of the page of life. I've had those experiences. And so when I come back, you know, going to Bed, Bath and Beyond and Trader Joe's and, you know, like, going to Disney World just doesn't have the same impact as a cultural experience that is rich in history, in the unknown or the untold. Like, those are the things that drive me. So you are absolutely, you know, dead on in. In the way that I think that it is really very mission driven.

And when WY reached out to me, I took. I took a professional risk. Sherry, they said, look, we've been wanting to talk with you. Storytelling is the number one topic that we're getting requests for, and we think you could do something interesting based on your. Your travels. And I just said to them, because I had nothing to lose, I said, if you're looking for a book that's going to teach somebody, like the five ways to tell a better story, I am not your guy. That's not me. And they said, no, no, no, you do you.

Which was an incredible thing to hear because I had free rein to integrate in hopefully in a way that resonates with audiences, that I am as fallible as anybody. And I can't sit here and tell you that one way is better than another, because it's all in authenticity, how people experience you like. Sherry, When I look at your. Your work on stage and the energy that you bring, right, that's you. And by being you, people are going to want to connect, right? That's the art that's selling, but that even sort of cheapens it in that regard. But you're connecting. It's about connection. And if I can connect in my way and you connect in your way and Brent in his way, then I think we're doing a pretty good job of attracting positive momentum between people.

So, yeah, very mission driven in that regard. And I always want to be a part of stories that have some purpose, right. Like, I just, I repel at this inauthentic, sort of synthetic market this do this pitch that, you know, it just. I don't. And I think in a world of AI where we're backsliding, we're not prepared, and that's the benefit of interviewing over 4,000 people all around the world, that I have some really interesting friends that live in interesting places that are in very interesting boardrooms. So I get information that is fascinating to me, stirs my imagination, but also makes me very cautious when I look at the world around me or when I'm at the scores table last night at a middle school basketball game for my son, wondering what's going on for this next generation? Are we preparing them or are we all just sort of blindly ignorant to what's going on and we're not going to be prepared. So to me, story lives and breathes within all of that.

Yeah, I've been saying for a long time that to me, AI can replicate a lot. AI can spin out content and tools and frameworks, but AI can never take our story. And that story really is the advantage in a time of AI, because our story is our story. And I'm curious, I want to pivot a little bit to your work in corporate America because we've got an audience of sales leaders, CROs that listen to this podcast and it almost seems to me, from what I've read about you and just what I'm hearing now, that your mission driven work that you do in Africa and other parts of the world and with the Pope drives this idea. Tell me if I'm wrong in corporate America to create culture and connection. And I'm curious, how do you do that when you're in a company, particularly in a company today where, you know, marketing is siloed from sales and from ops and people don't talk to each other and they blame each other and they point fingers. How are you using story as a unifying mechanism or tool? Or do you call it something different?

No, it's a great question. I'll give you sort of two points of entry here. So one would be so I think it was a Wall street journal on December 12, I think came out with an article about corporate America is looking for tellers. In essence, they're, they're sort of cobbling together pr, marketing, you know, marcom and saying that's not working because traditional media by in large part, and this is not a soapbox, but it's really been converted into paid media in so many different f ways in which we don't. The general public would not know. And that's challenging for folks that are trying to get their information out there. They're trying to acquire new customers, keep new customers.

Right.

So storytelling is, it's it used to be a nice to have or well, that's interesting to wait a minute. We have to find form and function within a corporate setting. The other element in that is that I've had and this, I don't know if this will surprise you, I'd be very curious. I've had several over the last couple of years, several CEOs or sea level, let's call them sea level professionals that have reached out to me back channel and asked me could I help them understand first their story and then be there with Them as they unpack it, to see how that then tags in to their legacy and. Or what they plan to do starting, let's say, you know, tomorrow in a greater sense. That tells me that we are starting to recognize that while we maybe were serviced well by press releases and sort of data points, it doesn't stick. And so, you know, it's funny because years ago and someone, I remember someone asked me point blank, why do you do that? And it was like, I don't know, is my gut just a gut reaction? I have told people across my 4,000 interviews, in essence, if you want me, if you want me to ask you questions that I could then source the answers from a press release that your company has put out, then that that's not going to be. I won't be the person to interview you because to me, that's lazy storytelling in that regard.

Right. I want to understand the person behind that because that, to me, is why people, millennials, I mean, like, the research is, you know, vast on why young people or the generation on the come pick a place to work and to commit their time. Right. And that's what we're really talking about. And so I've seen it individually with professionals that are saying, I've got to understand my story. I cannot hide behind my board. And. Or the board can't hide behind the CEO, who may be charismatic, but it's all around data points and lacking substance.

And people want to find their purpose.

Right.

You really, what you were talking about with me is purpose over profits. I think that mirrors the generation that is act actively in corporate America and really sort of the corporate world. And so storytelling is becoming that significant for people. They want to understand it. It's like, so I, I think I've reached out to the report at the Wall Street Journal and just said, you know, I'm fascinated that you've had this interest. And she said her mailbox from across the world has been flooded because she was dead on. What she found, what she reported on is they're looking for basically chief storytellers, people that can say, no, no, no, we have to understand, let's cat. Like, what kind of.

What's the ambiance? You know, it's like a.

Well, it's also the number one keynote. It's the one of five top keynote topics today according to speakers bureau.

So is that right?

You're in the, in the right place at the right time? Yeah, yeah.

Do you guys ever worry. And Sherry, this is much a question for you, but let's start with you're our guest. I'd love to get your take on this because this is what I do for a living. Right so. As well. So, you know, I've actually called myself a chief storyteller at many different times in my career. But the. There's a dark side to storytelling.

And in many ways the dark side to storytelling is in fact is where we start, which is we all acknowledge just how incredibly powerful stories are and how memorable they are and how, how unifying they can be and how authentic they can be. But there's. The dark side is the fact that stories can be used to manipulate. Stories can be used to create realities that are not true. Stories can be used to actually create alternative realities. Stories can be used to tear people apart as much as they can be used to bring people together. You know, we don't have to look any further than our own country right now to see two very different stories based that are derived from the exact same underlying reality. And those stories are actually polarizing.

And so I don't know, Rod, I don't really have even a question or specifically, and certainly no answer. But I do wonder as we all three of us sort of think of ourselves as storytellers. But it's like one of these, with great power comes great responsibility sorts of points. Right. And so, Rod, do you think about this, do you think about like the sort of the downside, the dark side of the power of storytelling and what do you do with that?

I do and I take it very seriously. I think of it as a responsibility. But that's an odd word to use in this context because it might. Yeah, it might mean that I'm trying to say that there's some level of ego or success. My approach is better than some and I don't need it in that regard. What I mean is that I think story is not to be taken lightly. Like the concept of story and storytelling.

Right.

And we can flippantly do it now or we can throw it into a chat bot or into. Into some AI engine and just think that we can spit out something that is going to be compelling and influence people because that's ultimately what. What people, I think are attempting to do. But I do think it's a great responsibility. But I. This is where.

But it's not even that because it's not like I could throw it into chat. But let's say I'm. I'm a world class storyteller. But if, essentially, if you're a world class storyteller, you are really, really good at getting people to think, believe, feel certain things, right? It's like if I use this word versus that word, I can actually move them emotionally from this place to this place. So my background is linguistics and while I'm certainly not trained in it, I'm not sure I ever want to be. You get into things like neuro linguistic programming and NLP stuff, right? And there's this real dark side to the NLP stuff which is it becomes, you know, on a cynical side, this becomes straight up manipulation.

Oh, so you're exactly right, Brian.

I mean, look, it's really interesting. It's like this really question, like how are we thinking about the. So I think one is we have to be very responsible as storytellers. But two, I think we need to equally train people to critically engage with stories such that this, that they are not susceptible to this sort of easily to this superpower of wow, that was really emotional. I've got a little tear in my eye and I'm going to do whatever you say because just the images you created were so powerful even if they were completely divorced from reality. Don't you think?

Brent, the format, the format is important within what you're saying, the context.

Tell me more, what do you mean?

Meaning if we're, we're all going to produce a movie, right? We're sort of picking our frame and this is a Christopher Nolan flick. Like even my 11 year old, she understands now. Like, okay dad, that feels like a Christopher Nolan. Like the feel of it, the sensibility, right. The color and everything. And in that we are sort of, we're staking sort of our position, our perspective. But if I'm speaking on stage with Sherry or you and I are providing a seminar, we're doing something, Brent, I think that the response within those environments, I think it's important to share the questions that we have in our mind that either got us to the position that we. Or the perspective that we are now sharing and.

Or the ongoing questions. I mean sometimes I think it's just that that sounds like such a throwaway. But it's funny because to me, and I've been speaking Since I was 16, I found that in those moments where I actually shared in essence how I came to a conclusion or the struggle, that that's the point of connection. Like that's the train stop. Like that's when the train stopped and we all got on together and then sort of shared in that collective energy within a given room.

There's this question of intention. Like what's your intent in telling A story. And then there's a certain humility to. Which is your point too, which is this sort of like, I'm not an expert, but here's. So you could present a story as a story, or you could present a story as almost like a reflection. Right. So it's like, here's one way to think about it. Here's a.

Here's an experience I've had, here's kind of how I interpret. But to essentially invite your audience in, to co construct the story with you as opposed to simply receive, it seems to me this really powerful act of humility that then turns the story into a collaborative act as opposed to storytelling is sort of. Sort of story collaboration which then seems to then diminish this risk of just using storytelling as a superpower that just overwhelms people and just bends them to a certain perspective.

I think the pressure test of that is. And I, I went into this broadly, but the greatest compliment that I've gotten thus far with the book, whether it's someone I know or that I have not met in at all my life, is this. I'm getting this response which says, I find myself reading your chapters and at some point in the chapters I insert myself and a story that seems to resonate, that at least tells me that even if I only sell five copies, that, that I'm. I'm inviting people in.

Yeah.

So there's a difference. This goes back to what chair you were talking about in the beginning. This whole, this notion of like, I'm just marketing. You're like, do these five things and you'll be a better storyteller. Right. That I think people, they, they can see through that. Right, they can see through that. And so I do think.

But there's probably no great answer. And to your point, I'd love to hear, Sherry, what you think, but yeah, I think it's something. It's like tying a string around your finger. Like you have to remember that as you're going so that it doesn't come across as. Look, I'm the all knowing, I'm telling you how to do that. To me, it's all based in questions, right? It's that curiosity, asking questions, and I think also respecting your audience. How many times do you hear a speaker and you think, if I'm feeling cynical today and I haven't had my coffee, I don't think that they, that they sort of respect their audience in the way in which they respect their own opinion. And that I think is dangerous and irresponsible.

I Do think we have responsibility as storytellers and to have clear, authentic intent. And I like what you said about showing them how we came to that conclusion because then they can make their own conclusion. Huh. Does that resonate with me? But the first thing I thought of when you said that, Brett, like, isn't this diabolical? Like, can't we use stories for evil? And we're probably all from the same generation. Do you remember Don Adams on Get Smart?

Of course.

Do you remember that show 99? And he used to say something all the time, if only he could have used his energy for good instead of evil. Remember that? Or if only he could have used his talent for good instead of evil. And I think it's the same with storytelling. And I think people will take any skill and use it for good or evil, depending on who they are. And we're not going to change that. And I also think I want to wrap this around it. I don't see storytelling as separate from human conversation and even human existence for that matter. We are so wired for story that, as Rod just said, if we don't put it in a framework for the audience, they will do it themselves.

They will fill in the blanks. Because we think in terms of if, then we make up stories. That's why in a company, if we don't tell someone the truth of a situation or the whole situation, we just say there's going to be a change. There's all this back channel gossip and upset because we start making up stories in the absence of information. So what I'm getting at, Bren, in answer to your question, couldn't we use it for evil? We can use anything for evil. I can use a knife to cut a fish, or I can use a knife to stab you in the heart. And so story is just integral to who we are as a human race.

And, oh, 100% right. But it's a half step away from propaganda, isn't it? But the, but the. Right, so the, the thing that you. So what this company, you guys both said is actually intriguing to me, which is storytelling as broadcasting is probably dead on arrival, right? And. But I think that's what a lot of people think of when they think of storytelling is how do I convey this story out to the world? You know, oftentimes when I work with people on storytelling, I'll ask them, who's the story about? And they'll say, it's about this person, it's about me or my experience, or about this other person I'm talking about it's like the story is really about your audience, right? It's. It's. It's. It's.

It's creating a vessel that they can put themselves into and then make better sense of their world through the imagery that you're sharing is kind of the way I. I think about it. But it's. But if you use sort of storytelling as a cudgel, that's no longer really the. The. That's. That isn't. It's no longer this collaborative act, is it? It's more of a.

It's more of a control. Storytelling is an act of control rather than an act of collaboration. I. I just. I don't know, Rod. I don't know if you thought about all this earlier. If you think about this, it's really dark, Brent.

I. I think it is dark, isn't it?

But.

No, but. But you know what? It's true.

I mean, like, literally, right?

Yes. I mean, we're going to date the podcast, and Chris is going to throw an egg at me, but, you know.

Right.

We just.

I don't know that you need to date it. It's literally the news for the last five years.

We had a shooting in Minnesota, and you've got both sides telling such a different story.

Right.

And, yes, that is manipulation. But that, to me, that's a conversation about news and media and social media, and, And. And it. That is a shame, because what's happening is because we're so polarized and, yes, we're falling into two camps of what does this story mean? But I want to get back to the sweetness of what Rod was saying at the beginning, because I'm happier there and the sweetness of making a difference with these refugees and in companies. And I would just. I am curious because you said something that was interesting. You said, I don't have the five steps. I don't have the three steps.

I miss five steps, by the way. So thank you very much. I do like structure because I find that, particularly in my work when I'm working with sales leaders and, you know, and CEOs to tell their stories and salespeople that their stories can get too long. Like, they can get 26 minutes, and nobody has the bandwidth for that today, that they kind of need some sort of a structure. And please prove me wrong here, Rod.

I want to hear actually what I think. To me, it's about the application of that. Right? So I completely agree with you. If you're plugging in, like, I had a conversation earlier today with a professional in India and They're asking me to now convert what sort of apply my, my book and storytelling to this world around health and wellness and meditation. Right. So you, you, this is just about the approach. So I completely agree. If, if I'm talking to folks in a business school or sales professionals, I have to understand that they're going to need organizing principles to apply my concepts into their world.

But it's about how do I come up with what's in here and am I doing it from up sort of this five step process or am I sort of bringing in all the ingredients? Then you can choose and take those ingredients and apply those to the meal you want to serve your, your base of customers or your potential customers, your market. So, so that. I'm glad you brought that up so that I could be clear on that. Right. So it's just, it's the way in which it's, it's like the origin story, right?

And aren't there universal truths like, you know, when we've got a villain, the story is better and, and the audience needs to be the hero. Or is that so yesterday?

I mean, I don't know if it's yesterday. I mean, look, that's. We talk of sort of story structure. I love when I see people who look at story structure, if we're using that sort of term loosely, and they just kind of bring their own spin on it as if to say like a basic example. That would be like 10 years ago they started coming out saying, oh, nobody reads content. It's short form. Right. You know, and I'm sitting there because I read, I read and I listen to the podcasts and all different sort of backgrounds, countries, sectors, because I like to learn and I'm, I love words spoken and written.

And I kept thinking to myself, why is it that these, the top sort of performers in these different domains, it's all around long form, content. You know, it's just like. So I don't know if structure, I mean, I think it's, it can feel good to say we're going to structure it and there's a hero and there's a, you know, there's a protagonist, there's a villain, right? Here's the arc of the story. Sometimes I think we need to look at things from a different angle, right? It's dead Poet society stand on top of the desk. What do you see? And I just think that that's, that can impact people in a different way. But look, story too. So many of these people that say like, well, they're so structured they're like over structured. It's like I love to say to them, and I.

And I talked about this and people kind of think, aha. It's like, you know, you don't need story until you need story, right? The minute you get pulled over for speeding, you're thinking about what's your story, right? When you're a little kid, okay, if little Brent walks in and now I see half the cookies are gone, even at a young age, he's coming up with a story. His at that stage, a story. If I'm going. If you're going on a first date or a blind date, you're walking into that establishment going, in essence, how am I going to portray myself? Right? I am telling a story by the way in which I enter that environment, the way I sit down, what I order, the first question, that's my story. So we can say it's like, oh, that's nice to have. Now, we all love story here, the three of us. But a lot of times people will think, well, yeah, but that's too unwieldy, right? I need things that I can package together.

That's fine. But once you're more aware that your story is across your entire day, it never, like, turns off, you then can apply it and go, okay, how does that then? Because how do I impact people? You know, if I'm a CEO, do I just throw data points at people or do I say what the data means? Like, no, no, no, the data should be the starting point. That's like my fingers hitting the keyboard at the now what results from that, right? So I think it's the way in which we apply these lessons that make the most impact for people.

You know, I was running through like an inventory of tools that I use in storytelling, and they kind of resonate or they correspond to what you're talking about. But oftentimes this quick technique that's in the frame making sale book that we just published. But is that when you share a story? I always, when I coach people on this, it's like I coach them on, like, there's two things you want to accomplish simultaneously is one, I want my audience to know something, but I want my audience to feel something, right? And so you can kind of go through and think, all right, what is it that I want them to know? The information, the, you know, whatever it is. And this, by the way, so I live in the world, right? Exactly what you're talking about. So I have. My storytelling has been based on data and bar charts for the better part of 25 years. Right? And so the. And so when you show someone a bar chart, there's like, well, you know, here's the.

Or a graph. Here's what's on the x axis. Here's what's on the y axis. Here's what this. You know, so there's information. As you notice, this one goes up and that one goes down. Look at. They meet the middle.

It's a marginal cost, marginal revenue, or whatever it is, Right. This is the market clearing price. I'm not even sure what all that meant, but I think it meant something. I remember vaguely from economics, but the. But then there is. And when I used to train storytellers, I'd always ask them, okay, that's all the stuff you want your audience to know, but what do you want your audience to feel? And generally the question is like, what do you mean? And I would always say, well, is this exciting? Is it scary? Is it surprising? Is it confusing? Is it off putting? What's the emotion you're trying to generate in your audience as you share this story? And then we usually talk about it and settle on something like, well, this is actually kind of surprising because it's an unexpected outcome. All right, so now give me, like, give me five words that are. That describe surprise in some fashion.

Surprising, unexpected, you know, and we'd write them out on a whiteboard, and they say, now tell me, tell me. Explain this graph to me one more time. But as you explain the graph, use three of those five words. And it was always interesting because the. Everyone in the. We do this is what we called master classes. And so we were like small groups of six or seven. And everyone would always look around after we do those exercises and say, what did you just do? And I said, I don't do anything.

And they said, what did they just do? And say, they didn't do it. They just. They began to convey not just what you want them to know, but what you want them to feel. They started making an emotional connection. And I think this is going back straight to your question about techniques and rules and five steps. If there's one thing I found that works, that really supercharges, turbocharges your storytelling is to think about the emotional connection and use the language of emotion as much as the intellectual connection, if that makes sense. I don't know, Rod, if that's something you've thought about before, but the. I would imagine you have, you just do it instinctively because it just happens naturally for you.

Well, that's very kind of you to say no, I do absolutely think about that. You know, I again, so it took me back to working at Vanderbilt's business school, right? So I'd be working these graduate students who, let's say 65% of them, 70% of them are there because family legacy and let's say accounting valuation, these sorts of things, right? They, they want to start their own firm or go to a McKinsey or whatever. And so I, part of my initial work would be to understand their motivation and their fear for being there with a purpose of they were an accelerated program. And the sooner that they found sort of like minded people in the room without feeling like they had to sort of posit that they were better, smarter, more accomplished or more valuable to affirm than the person next to them or on either side, the better. And what was fascinating is it's sort of doing the same thing that you're talking about, but it's like why am I here and why do I want to in essence move forward and to find those commonalities? What was interesting was they would sort of collect around the fear or the emotion, right? Like is accounting going to be around in 10 years? Am I going to sort of get a return on my investment here at this very expensive but notable school around the world? That's a fear that's central to their story and that, see for me I interpret that as until they can sort of voice that and understand that one, they're not alone, their motivations are going to be impacted or influenced in a way that may not take them on the path that they ultimately want to be on, right? And so it's, this is why it's like take education for an example. So the classic example of, you know, principal is going to call the staff in and they're going to have this meeting, right? And they walk away frustrated because it's like we're doing okay. One more new initiative just sort of, it becomes white noise. And why? Because you find out that, that and this happens in corporate America too, but never started with what's the implication on everybody in this room, right? Like help me understand, like let's clear those components up.

Let's understand how my work, my contribution adds to the value or the goal that we are now setting forth on this journey. And when we don't do that, you lose people, it's out of the gate, you lose them. And so this kind of goes back to that conversation about the responsibility of a storyteller. I think that part of it is being a conductor of sorts to understand the pace, the rhythm, the power of breath and voice. Like we were talking about sort of the propaganda and some of the cynical stuff, right? The darker side of it. Look, I remember back in my training in clinical psychology, when you're working with young boys, right, in schools, to hear a deeper, louder voice in a moment when they need to be sort of diverted away from whatever that behavior is, actually works because they hear you at a different decibel level. Not that you're yelling at them, but it's basically telling their brain, aha. Brent's trying to capture my attention while I'm screwing around here in class or whatever's going on.

That's not really productive or functional for me within this organized setting. So there is great power in that. And so that's where I've always equated writing and storytelling to being a musician. Like, there's a rhythm, you know, when you talk to a publisher, a lot of times people will reach out and say, hey, Rod, how did you get a publisher? I'm thinking about that. You write, which I love that people are. They're interested in sort of sharing their experiences and their expertise. I say to them, look, one of the first questions they're going to ask you is, have you found your voice? Or tell me about voice. Because that's the kind of thing that jumps off of a page for a reader, like when someone has their voice.

And when you don't have your voice, whether you're speaking, you're sharing a story, or you're conducting a board meeting and running board meeting again, it hit. People know it. It's like when you hear a song for the first time. You're like, something inside you says, there's something about this that is catchy, right? I mean, that's the power of advertising. And sometimes less is more. So that. That's what I love about it. It's like.

It's the sequence. It's the it. It's. You're moving people and there. It's such a rhythmic experience. So whether.

Right.

I mean, this is why, as an example, Steve Kornacki, who was doing all the work on then MSNBC and NBC for the election coverage, they moved him over to NBC Sports because the way in which he communicates data and trends and forecasting, oh, here's a percentage of your team making the playoffs. The way he does it makes you feel as if he's right there in the room with you and he's your neighbor.

That's so interesting you say that. I always said that the Male bonding that happens when watching football or the NBA. To me, what they're really doing is they're not just watching the game and the stats. They're sharing values. Oh, did you know he grew up in a poor neighborhood and then, you know, he left his wife? And it's sort of like how people, you know, really. And I think more men than women share their actual values through the stories of the players. It's never just the game because there's safety.

Right? There's safety.

It's the story. Yes. And it's. It's. Women do that probably more naturally. But I love what you're saying and heard a couple of things that I just wanted to point out that you said that really hit me. And one of those is you're not only focused on structure, you're focused on delivery, because there's writing the song and then there's performing the song, and the voice and the pause, and both are obviously equally important in the power of a story. But the other theme that I hear from you that is really beautiful, that I haven't heard a lot from people who call themselves storytellers is this idea.

It's not just the stories we tell, it's not just the stories we share, but that you're really helping people with the stories they tell themselves to be better humans. I mean, am I hearing that 100?

100, yeah. It goes sort of back to that school play. You know, it's. Because at least in the west or here in the US it's, you know, it's that notion of the. The stage in an elementary school that's. That shares space with a cafeteria. And, you know, maybe you get thrown into a school play in third grade or whatever it is that you have to do, and you're playing the oak tree. And that's one of those first experiences of saying, oh, that person has a better story or is better at telling us.

Like, it's understanding our life within this context of the people that I share a stage with, those that are watching me in my environment, or that I would like to get to know. And I think that over time, I think the best storytellers are those that are vulnerable enough to sit within the story, their own story, that probably doesn't have answers. In essence, there's no. You can't just say, well, this, you know, this is. This is how it's going to end.

Right.

You just don't know. And I think that's the. Some of the most powerful. Right. And the funny thing is, is after we've experienced. And it's all relative.

Right.

But some level of trauma, a breakup, you know, a divorce, losing a game in school, whatever the. Whatever it is. Those are those moments where we actually. This is what I mean, think about now. I'm dating myself along, I think probably with the two of you as well. It's sort of, you know, you're a kid and someone breaks up with you or something happens and you go and you listen to music, you know, you listen to, like, love songs about, you know, how you can't go on anymore. You know, it's like you're in a point of. There's a.

That's an intersection of vulnerability and an opportunity to understand how that narrator, that narrative impacted you. And also, what role did you play? That's the hardest thing for people to answer in relationship. What role did I play? I'd much easier to say, Brent, you put me in this position, you know what I mean, at work. And I know we're colleagues, but, you know, it's. It's. I'm pointing at Brent because it keeps the focus away from my understanding of myself. Right. So, Brent, we can talk about that off air about how you did that to me.

No. Yeah, but. But I do think that finding ourselves and the story of ourselves is paramount to being a better, more connected parent, to being a better leader to understand. It's like there's an individual in Stockholm who I've become friends with and worked with. And you know what he found out? He's really good at being number two. Like, he's really, really good at that role. Yet we're all rich. It doesn't matter if you're in the Nordics or if you're in the U.S.

it's like, yeah, but you're supposed to be number one. You're supposed to be the CEO. And it was like, he's so valuable in the spot that he is, in the way in which he works with organizations of all shapes and sizes. And I always. I find that to be an incredible narrative and a twist on it. Right. But it's because he understands more, because.

He knows his story. He knows his own.

Right?

He knows his story. That's right.

Well, let me ask you. So we're winding down now, and then Brent and I are going to talk behind your back for eight minutes. And. I was going to say, I am. Yes. And I'm not even German. But at any rate, that was teasing both of you. Actually, I guess I am half German.

That is not so. That is. Why do people get A hold of you and it will obviously put your book in the show Notes. Is it best to email you reach out on LinkedIn? I know you work with companies, with teams, with individuals. You're obviously very mission driven. How do we, how do people find you?

Well, thank you. I mean, they can go to drrodberger.com they can send me an email rodrberger.com I'm on LinkedIn all the time, so feel free to do that. Also Instagram and then I'm, I won't single out one, but I'm with most of the major speaker bureaus and if that's of interest to you, I mean, feel free to reach out to representation there. But yeah, I'm excited about, and I can say this now on the, on I'm, I'm now in, in talks with Wiley to write a companion guide to this so that it allows you, once you've sort of centered in and sort of, I think sat within this book, right, to then apply it to, to your life, both personally and professionally. So I'm available everywhere. I try to be public in that regard and I love when people have questions. It's not about, in essence selling in that regard. I love when people just send me a note and say, you know, this is something that moved them.

Here's a question that they have because I know I've benefited greatly by those who have contributed their story, even when I didn't know that I could ask for it or they did it of their own volition and kindness.

Well, thank you. Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you guys. Really appreciate it.

All right, cheers.

Cheers. So, Brent, what are your thoughts after listening, talking and observing our wonderful guest, Rod?

Well, I mean, it's interesting to me, Sherry, because I have given so much thought to storytelling, both sort of officially, like, how do you actually unpack this and just doing it and sort of think about how do I. You're not really think about storytelling, but how do I just convey ideas in a compelling way? How do I speak more, you know, in a more motivational way? How do I take really complex ideas and impart them on people? So I guess you think about it, that's all kind of storytelling in some fashion or another. And you know, I've developed all sorts of tips and tricks and ideas that seem to work for me. But the thing I find really interesting about it and I maybe all thought it just got too dark, but, but I think it's a real question which is as you get better and better at it, it becomes a Bit of a superpower. And you actually have to start to be kind of careful about your ability as a storyteller. I think a lot of people maybe or is not something to think about because they just don't feel that they're that good at storytelling to begin with. But, but it's kind of Rod's point. We all tell stories all the time.

We tell stories to ourselves. And by the way, it's, I think you made such a powerful point that really kind of caught me off guard saying, oh God, she's right. Which is if you, you know, it's not just that storytelling can become manipulative or dark or it can have negative consequences for out for external audiences. You know, you mentioned propaganda. It can the same truth can be for yourself, can't it? Which is like you really caught me off guard with that point. It's like the stories we tell ourselves can be just as self destructive as they can be detrimental to the world if you're not careful.

I mean, more so. I, I think about this all the time. You know, like you go out as a couple, right, with your spouse and you've heard all of their stories, right. Like you've all heard all of each other's stories. And, and like I know when somebody asks my husband a certain question, like I can tell his, here he goes, you know, and, and, and then we all, like when we're in a social setting, you know, maybe we've got, you know, some form of virtue signaling. Because if you think about why we tell stories in public, very often we're doing it to, you know, accelerate our own position in the social group. Yeah, right. Like I'm going to tell this because, oh yes, I give back because how couldn't I? I feel so fortunate.

There's that story, right? Then there's the, you know, the victim story and whatever it is. I do think it's very useful for us as humans to stop and look at not the stories we tell professionally so much because these will affect those. But I think it's very beneficial to go back and say, what stories do I tell in different situations? Why am I telling them? Do they serve me and do they serve the other person? Or am I really just looking for validation for my own darkness and insecurity? Now that's dark.

I was with you through the word validation and well, because we do that.

Because we all do, let's be honest. Yeah, right. Like the story about how I was wronged, you know, and it's the victim story, which none of us are Immune to. Right. This happened and then they took that and it's like, why am I telling that story? Nobody wants to hear it. It's not furthering the. It's. But again, I think that's the point is that we really need to look at the stories we tell.

And you can reframe any story. And I believe that when we reframe our stories, we change our lives because it's that powerful.

So, so you, as you crystallize something for me that is really, it's really interesting how you said that. So we just. Like we did just now with Rod and, and you can tell he naturally gravitates there because he's wrote a book on it, right? That we tend to focus on storytelling in terms of the mechanics. How do you tell a compelling story? When do you tell you all that kind of stuff? I geeked out on that a little bit in our conversation too. But I keep coming back to the thing that we probably all should reflect on is your point, which is the intent of the story, not what am I telling, but why am I telling it. What am I trying to achieve, either for me or for my audience? And sometimes I think those intentions probably should or should. Should be investigated a little bit more. Right.

To your point. It's like, is, is this like. And I catch myself all this time, it's like, you know, why am I. Is it just to get attention? Is that really it? And is that. And is that. And by the way, is that a good thing or bad thing? Or is it neither? Is it just sort of neutral but. Or is it to get affirmation? Is it to get confirmation? Is it, you know, because your intent can actually impact the story itself. If I'm, if I'm trying to get affirmation, I might tell a story in a different way and put a certain spin on it that's going to lead to affirmation.

More likely get me the affirmation that I seek and becomes almost like a self fulfilling prophecy rather than getting me a critical expertise, a critical feedback that would actually be more valuable. I'm literally making this up as I go, Sherry. But yeah, no, stuff I'm thinking about, I've never thought about before. Really?

No, you're, you're, you're so right. And I thought you brought up a great comment about. It's not just the information, it's how do we make people feel. And the one place I'm not as aligned with Rod and probably for his work, what he's doing makes a ton of sense. I know in my work we have done masterclasses with everyone from Microsoft to Ford and Even in Fortune 500, everybody, including the CEO, they think they're telling a good story and they're not.

Yeah, why not?

Well, to me it's less about delivery, that happens second. And it is all about structure. And that's where. And there's pattern recognition in a good story. And yes, you can use it for good or you can use it for evil. But I'm thinking of a CEO I just worked with. We done masterclasses for the company on storytelling. But his story, he was the hero.

He was incredible. He was awesome. He defied all odds. Now, there's a structure and you mentioned it earlier, that the audience or the customer needs to be the hero of the story and he needs to understand. And maybe we don't want to use the word structure, but it's a universal truth of psychology that if you are, you know, and it's no different than sales, if I start with my decks and how great our company is and how long we've been in business, right away I don't like you because you're beating your chest. And it's the same with a story. And that's just one of 20 examples of default behaviors that I see. And I do think that the universal truth, or the structure, whatever you want to call it, once you tell that to the person and say, hey, look, here's why it doesn't work and here's why it would be better if you were flawed.

I mean, maybe old school, but you were flawed. But then somebody came to you, the guide, gave you an idea and then I watched the transformation and it's unbelievable. All of a sudden they're telling a good story that people actually want to hear.

And I think to your point, you say structure, I say intention. I think they're both true. Right. So the. Let me. Can I give you a self serving example? Just because it's something we talk about that I've been thinking about a lot. So it's in the book.

Are you the hero in your own story?

No, I'm. No, I promise I'm not because I never know what the heck I'm talking about. But there's. We talk about frame making as a mindset, you know, and this mindset is how can I help my customers make the best decision they can in as little time as possible? That's really what framing is all about. And to your point, it's something you just said. Again, you sparked so many ideas today, which you always do, because you're amazing. But the. Is this idea that I can tell a story to a customer.

It's very, very compelling. But if my intention is to get them to like me or see my value or to think more or to think, you know, we're like, wow, he's great. He's now my trusted advisor. You know, we tend to solve for people's perceptions of us in telling stories. And if you're. If you just switch your intention, your intent was like, what if I switch my intent from changing the way you think about me in telling the story to I'm going to tell you a story specifically designed to change the way you think of yourself, Then the story itself, the structure, the content, the cadence, all of it begins to shift as well. Certainly the content does. And I think to.

To. It's. It's a really, I think, powerful point to begin to think, like, before I start telling stories, what am I trying to accomplish? Like, what's my objective? Like, what. What's. And. And that. That really. Then you could take all the tools from your storytelling toolbox and bring them to bear on achieving that goal.

But until. Until you really rethink that, because is that kind of consistent with what you're talking about is.

Yeah, exactly.

It can be a great storytelling sales rep. But if it's, like, at the service of just getting you to love me more, you love my product more, it's probably still not very compelling.

And that's why we need to ask, why am I telling this story? And I actually, again, as a framework, begin with the punchline. And I call it a punchline because the way I look at it, a great story is like a joke. And the punchline has to be like a tweetable that people remember. And I will have companies start with the punchline and work backwards. You know, I've been working. I'm doing a keynote for Hertz next week, and I have a very funny story about not using a Hertz, because I've been a Hertz member now for 40 years, and in an attempt to save money, we used a different service, but I had to start with the punchline and work backwards. And I do think that's really important, because if we don't know why we're telling it, we're doing it to make Hertz the hero, not to make us the hero. We gotta get very clear on that.

Otherwise we're gonna go all different places that we really shouldn't be going. So, yes, I agreed.

And this goes back to the point about the stories we tell ourselves, too. Start with intent. There you go. I think what we've just done is we've just solved the world's problems.

You think so?

No, no.

There's still really nasty stories out there. And we could go on and on about this, but. Yeah. And it is interesting. And it is interesting how hungry people are in corporations and media is for stories, which is weird because media has been telling stories for years. It's just that now they're very bifurcated, 100%.

All right. We'll keep the story going until next time.

We'll talk story next time. Thanks, Brent.