In this episode of Dancing Class, pioneering hip hop artist Jonzi D shares how growing up in a creative family and discovering hip hop shaped his identity and ambitions. From early school performances to training at The Place, he reflects on navigating class and cultural barriers within the world of contemporary dance to carve his own path.

Jonzi recounts the creation of groundbreaking works like Aeroplane Man and Lyrical Theatre, which fused rap, poetry and movement, giving voice to political and social realities often absent from mainstream stages. He also discusses founding Breakin’ Convention at Sadler’s Wells, an international festival that redefined how hip hop is seen in theatre and challenged entrenched notions of “high” and “low” art, Jonzi speaks about identity, community, race, and the limitless potential he found in hip hop culture.

1. Content Guidance: Light reference to drug use
2. Recorded: 1st October 2025
3. Sound Recordist: Dr Laura Taylor
4. Editing: Dr Laura Taylor
5. Audio accompaniment: Dr Jess Blaise Ward
6. Audio accompaniment mastering: Michael Ward

Jonzi

Kind: captions

Language: en

Hi, I'm Laura.

Hi, I'm Rachel. And this is the dancing

class podcast

made possible by the British Academy

Lever Hume Small Research Grant Fund and

Leeds Becket University. In this series,

we invite dance industry professionals

from workingclass backgrounds in the UK

to talk about their experience of dance

education and their careers. We're

interested in discussing the ways in

which dance can be a vehicle for class

mobility in the UK and contribute to

discourses around leveling up. This

series also researches the role of dance

as a catalyst for social and economic

progress. Some of our discussions take

place while dancing and are recorded

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immersive effect and the best listening

experiences via the use of headphones.

These recordings will be labeled as

binaural.

We hope that you enjoy the series.

Thanks for tuning in.

Welcome.

Welcome John D.

121213.

I'm not sure what the rap is cuz I'm a

bit out of practice. But same way, I'll

still smash this like an egg on a

mattress

in leads.

In leads. True indeed.

I'll allow Rachel to supersede.

Boom.

Boom.

Welcome to Leads, John D. Thanks for

coming up. Thanks for joining us. I've

just got so many good memories of leads

over the years.

Oh my god.

Do we start there?

No. Well, should we start at the very

beginning?

Take us back to the beginning.

Okay. So, God created the earth in No.

Okay. Not that far back.

Right. Where you from? No. First of all,

for our listeners, John, can you tell us

who you are and what you're doing at the

minute?

My name

Yeah. is widely known

as John Z.

Yep.

Obviously, the passport doesn't say

that, but you don't need to know that.

So,

exclusive.

I am John Z and I um a performing

artist. I don't perform as much. I am

programming a lot more

for breaking convention, the

international festival of hiphop dance

theater. Great.

So, I'm working on that right now.

Yeah. And you started that festival,

didn't you?

I did start that festival and um there's

a very specific reason why I started

that.

Tell us

um

the lack of understanding

of hiphop

potential

within a space called contemporary

dance.

For me, the term contemporary dance is

dance of today.

Yeah. So, it was really confusing while

I was studying at the place with Rachel

every day in the same class. We'll get

into that a bit.

Um, why this term contemporary wasn't

being used for hip-hop dance and that

was something else.

And that always really confused me

because hip-hop dance vocabulary has so

much potential. Yeah.

And the idea of that in a theater space,

I always thought that could be amazing,

but I just don't think culturally it was

making sense.

And do you think that was just in

Britain, John, or

I'd say I'd say anywhere where there is

um a sense of

class which affects people's perspective

of what they're doing. Yeah. And I think

that the contemporary dance environment,

you know, it's kind of neocclassical, do

you know what I mean? And you know, a

lot of people that we trained with um

you know, the the ones that did really

well, the ones that were doing ballet

since the age of six and stuff like, you

know, remember not you, not me either.

But I felt that there was a value

judgment.

Okay.

Do you know what I mean?

Um and particularly with street dance,

do you know what I mean? M

um I remember actually once Rachel

Yeah.

Um we was away in Winchester maybe.

Oh,

working with um Yel Flexer.

Oh yes.

Um and I remember we were listening to

some hip-hop at the time. And at the

time we were listening to Old Dirty

Bastard. Yeah. And that's not a swear

word. That's his name.

That's his name. Yeah.

And um and I remember you asked me

what why is this good?

Did I

compared to something else?

I think that's kind of a good question.

It was a great question. I just couldn't

answer it. I was just like,

I mean, can't you hear it?

But to be fair, old dirty bastard, you

know, it's not everyone's cup of tea,

should we just say?

Um, but yeah, but all that to say that I

think that my experience in the

contemporary dance world, I didn't feel

as though people understood what hip-hop

was at the time.

Yeah.

And it was it was in the late 80s anyway

as well. So that was still

like the early days.

Early days. All right.

Yeah. And and in what ways, Johny, do

you

um when you said you didn't feel that

there was value there, what made you

aware of that? What kind of

um just talking about breaking and doing

it and people like looking at it and

with a slight you know gentle smile, oh

that's cute,

right?

You know what I mean? It wasn't I didn't

feel that it was something okay.

If you don't feel that you need to learn

it,

then I question what your perspective of

it.

Interesting.

Do you know what I mean? Cuz why

wouldn't you want to learn how to break

or pop or lock if you're interested in

movement as a creative source of or at

least the vocabulary being where you're

making choices to make theater.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And I

suppose there's a bit of validation that

comes with its inclusion on a syllabus

for instance within a particular

institution and maybe they're in

included in the syllabus of um sort of

institutions that are more about

commercial dance theater or you know

West End theater training. But you're

right, it's that in that that it's

really interesting that it is a

contemporary dance form, but back then,

maybe it's changing, but only even

slightly now in the conservatire sort of

contemporary conservatire training

sector in the UK. It's still

not like

uh the mainstream within that syllabus,

is it? No.

It's really It's really interesting.

You're more likely to find it probably

in the more commercial dance courses.

Yes. So, but anyway, can we go back to

your roots?

Okay.

Where where were you born? Where you

from?

Yeah. Because, you know, as you know,

this is a podcast about workingass

identity. So, we need to check your

credentials, don't we?

Okay. Um, so I was born and bred

in Bow, East London.

You're a Cockney.

Sunday morning

at 9:00 definitely within the sounds of

the bow bells.

So um I like to refer to myself as an

Afrococknney

and yeah I grew up um in that

environment. I absolutely loved it.

I don't remember feeling like I was I

had less.

Yeah. I didn't feel that. Yeah,

maybe that's a lot to do with my family.

My parents are um Grenadian migrants

that came over around the Windrush time

period.

Um and yeah, they came here and made a

life.

Um I'm the last of six kids.

Wow.

Yeah. So I grew into a community. It was

very much, you know, fighting to be

heard. Um, and you know, I think maybe

there was a little bit of wanting to be

heard. So,

you do surprise me.

The loudest one. But I I I had a lot of

support from my brothers and sister.

Oh, that's so nice.

They were really encouraging. They were

all artists.

Oh, God. Tell us a single one of them.

My sister,

she um used to run the Sunday school and

she used to sing and play guitar. Um my

other brother and so her name is Ruth.

My other brother Jim, he was an actor.

He was a playwright.

Wow.

Um and he did a lot of um playwriting

around the socialist workers party.

Wow.

And he was really involved in that and

he would write stuff from that

perspective.

Amazing.

Um it was never professional. It was

always for the love. I'd like to hasten

to add. Um my brother behind him was

Pete. He was an amazing dancer, club

dancer.

Wow.

Every time we'll go to Covent um not

Covent um Oxford Street, I'll be walking

down the street with him as a kid and

every two minutes somebody stops him and

says, "Hey, Chopper, Chopper." Cuz that

was his nickname cuz he had a big smile.

Chopper, you're amazing. Oh, that move

that you did the other day was

brilliant. And I just he was just my

local hero, you know what I mean? You

know,

did he dance in the bedroom in front of

you?

He danced in the bedroom.

Was he your first dance teacher?

Definitely my first teacher.

Okay.

Absolutely. My brother Peter aka

Chopper.

Um he was he danced on the quote unquote

boogie scene which was to fusion jazz.

Oh, beautiful.

Um and yeah, he had really fast feet. Um

and yeah, he just loved it. And when I

Where did he learn Johny?

He learned in the community.

There were no classes for this type of

dance.

It was like clubs.

Yes.

Yeah. Absolutely.

Social.

He went to It was social.

Yeah.

Primarily.

Um so yeah, he was like I worshiped him.

He was such an amazing dancer and I hope

he hears this.

Um then there was my brother Joe.

Joe used to be in a marching band. Oh,

cool.

And he would play the bugle.

Oh my god.

Um, and he'd wear all the get up and

stuff. And I never forget that he went

the the the the band was called the Red

Coats and he went to America in like

1985 or something like that. God

and I just thought you are amazing, you

know, simply cuz you went to America to

perform in 1985.

Um, so that was really special. My

brother Tim, he was kind of a mixture of

Joe who was in the marching band. He

played in the marching band. You know

those free drums that they play they

hold that they carry march. Yeah.

So he used them

and um he was also a great dancer

and we used to go clubbing together when

I first started going clubbing. Um so

yeah they were all performers

but none of them made money out of it.

Okay. None of them was professional.

Yeah.

So that was my goal.

I thought, right, I'm not going to have

this. All of you were amazing artists.

At least let me make a career out of it.

So I I I give all props to my family.

Amazing.

Sounds like an amazing family.

Yeah.

Yeah, man. They are. We are.

And so what were your kind of earliest

memories apart from with your brother

Chopper?

Yeah. my ear of moving your body

of moving it was

it was when on a Sunday usually

after dinner

my parents would ask us what we did

at school or something yeah that week

like what what did you do what can you

share with us

and I was always unprepared

so I would improvise

I would just straight up improvise and

maybe I'll play a character. Um, I used

to enjoy doing

How old were you here?

Oh, I was about eight, nine.

Right. Okay.

And I would enjoy doing the character um

that Lenny Henry,

you know,

I don't know if you remember a

character.

Him.

Yeah.

Um, and I I would perform that and my

parents would absolutely love it. M um

and yeah um interestingly

they shielded us from the black and

white minstal show.

Mhm.

Do you remember that?

Yeah.

That was actually on telly. Yeah.

Absolutely crazy.

And what a world.

And and I remember wanting to see it,

but my parents were like, "Oh, no, no,

we don't like this show." Interesting.

And I didn't know why. I thought it was

kind of fun really. And then once you

realize that they're mimicking me.

Yeah.

Then it just all shifted. My dad

My dad was quite political and I not

that he would talk about it, but there

was a book of Muhammad Ali.

Uhhuh.

That was on I remember seeing it every

day. And he had arrows. I don't know if

you saw this famous picture of him. He

had arrows in him and little bits of

blood coming from him.

Wow. Um, and I remember that image being

really powerful growing up of this guy

who was clearly brilliant at what he

did, clearly proud of what he did, yet

he was attacked and targeted.

Um, so that was something that stayed

with me and I guess it encouraged in me

a desire to be confident about change.

Beautiful. And do you think this was

around the same age when you're sort of

maybe starting to think about your

identity in the world? And

I'd say a little bit earlier than that.

I think I started to understand who I

was

around about the time where I first

discovered hip-hop culture. Okay.

Yeah.

Um when I first saw evidence of it, a

video called Buffalo Gals.

Oh yeah.

Malcolm McLaren.

And I heard this weird s

what is that noise? I don't. And then

when I saw that it was hands on a

turntable going back and forth and

making this rhythmic noise, I was like,

what sorcery is this?

Well, let me have it.

I I want to know. And then seeing Rock

Steady Crew, Craziness, for the first

time.

Yeah.

Doing this dance

which they were on the on the floor and

their legs were moving rapidly.

Yeah.

Um behind in front of a massive wall of

graffiti that was created so um

artistically I guess and it came away

from this idea that it was scroll or

vandalism. This was art. Yeah. You know.

Did you see that on the telly?

On telly this was

and and and it just changed my life.

Like Top of the Pops or something?

It was

Old Gray Whistle. I think it was

something like that.

We're going back a bit now, guys. Do

your research.

Um but yeah, I I remember just thinking

this is for me cuz there were people

dancing on their heads.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I knew that my older brothers would

never be able to do that. I was like 12,

13 at the time and it was clearly that

dance was for me. They dressed like me.

They just wore tracksuits and trainers

and that was fine, you know. Whereas the

generation before that it was it was,

you know, early late '7s. It was quite

fid and colorful. And

did you do any dance at school by this

point?

I Yes, we did country dancing. This has

come up quite a bit. I did it. We all

did it basically. Yeah.

And and what I loved about that was um

holding hands with everybody.

Do you know what I mean? It just it it

was just nice to hold hands, boys,

girls, all together, you know. I I did I

really like country dance. I liked the

spirit of country dancing and also it

felt accessible. Mhm.

It didn't feel like you needed a very

supreme technique to do this. It really

was social dance.

Yeah. And because you were doing it with

everyone in your class.

Yeah.

And and it and it and it didn't feel

like who was the best.

No,

that wasn't important. What was

important was engagement

that we were all part of it and we were

all doing it together.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, yes, that was the dance that I first

started doing.

And then um in secondary school we also

had dance on the curriculum.

Amazing.

Interestingly though

I in primary school was more interested

in drama and acting

and when I went to secondary school that

wasn't on the curriculum only dance.

Dance was but that was fine for me. It

was performance. It was

exciting. I was learning something. was

very physical

and um

and interestingly

obviously at that time there weren't as

many boys

doing it.

Mhm.

So I felt quite brave at the time to say

I'm going to commit to this.

Yeah.

Um because my other friends, you know,

this is tough East London,

you know, and a lot of my friends were

like, you know,

well, what you doing that for?

Yeah.

But they didn't. It's interesting. I I I

still got support. They they they didn't

feel that they could do it,

but because I was, I guess, part of the

gang.

Yeah.

And I chose to do it, I got respect for

them.

Amazing.

Do you know what I mean? I wasn't the

weird one that did this. I was part of

the team and I did this dance. So, that

felt really good.

Was that like GCSE dance?

CSE.

CSE. It was 2 years before it became

GCSE.

Okay.

And where was your school, John? It was

in East London Popla.

Um my primary school was in Bow. My

secondary school was in Popla.

Um my secondary school, my primary

school was called Devon's Road. It it

changed about 25 years ago to Claraara

Grant, but I will always remember it as

Devon's Road School.

Um

and I used to love performing in school.

We used to do um these big plays. I

remember there was a a a modern version

of Scrooge and it was called I can't

remember what it was called but my

character was called Alfie Rough Cuts.

Mhm.

And he was meant to be a punk and it was

crazy cuz interestingly look at it. So

as part of my get up I had Union Jack

socks.

Oh my god.

Yeah. Incredible.

Up to just below my knees. Um, and at

the time I didn't associate the Union

and Jack with any political leaning.

Yeah.

Um,

yeah. Just thinking about if it was now

though,

it'd be it'd be quite different.

It would be very different. I can't just

Weird. Good old Uni and Jack.

Anyway,

and so your dance teacher at school then

because you said you were interested in

drama but dance was available.

Um, was your your dance teacher was a

dance specialist presumably?

Yes, she was

amazing.

Yes, she was. I will never forget her.

um I'll forget her name. I will never

forget her her energy and how positive

she was. I remember we were doing our

exams and it was in a big hall where we

usually did dance and this particular

teacher, she walked past my desk and put

an article on it midway during a

flipping English exam or something and

the image was of Paul Libert

wearing these blue tights.

Rocket.

Fantastic. and and she just put it there

just as an inspiration for me. And it

was an inspiration.

Well, he was, wasn't it? He was a

complete inspiration, especially when I

saw him in the flesh.

And when was that?

This was at a place.

Yeah.

London Contemporary Dance School. So,

just before we get there, you're at high

school and then did you realize, right,

I could study this after high school

or did did that dance teacher go,

John, I think you need to do this.

My dance teacher was very encouraging.

Yeah.

My careers advisor

on the other hand,

oh, here we go. We've all got this

story, John.

He said, "Oh, um, I just want to check

the height. Your height?" Yeah. And he

was alluding to that maybe I'm a little

bit too short

to do. Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

This is at the time I'm watching the Hot

Shoe Show with Wayne Sleep.

Yeah.

Famous for his height.

Famous for his height or lack of, you

know, and you know, I just thought this

guy's a joker. You know what I mean? I

could blatantly see the success in this

thing.

Yeah.

So, at that point, I thought to myself,

there's a conspiracy. You know what I

mean? They don't want us to dance. They

don't want us to be creative. They don't

want us to be artists. And I weren't

having it.

As a matter of fact, I I maybe I did

listen to him a little bit cuz I ended

up leaving school and doing three A

levels.

Nice one. What did you do?

Government and politics.

Wow.

Sociology.

Oh, cool.

And economics.

No way. Why did I do that? I spent that

first year just stressed.

Yeah. And what were you think what were

you what was your rationale for that?

I wanted to show my mom

a

that I can get a degree and I can do her

proud.

That's what it was.

Yeah. And

unfortunately she passed away

in that time period

and I just was completely thrown off.

Um I ended up leaving that course.

Yeah. Um, I didn't really like it

anyway. My mom had passed away.

I felt like I didn't know what I was

doing and things got a bit risky at the

time.

Yeah.

Because I didn't have money,

right?

But some of my friends were making

money.

Mhm.

From crack.

Yeah.

Mhm. So, and this was when crack first

kind of came to East London.

Mhm.

Um,

yeah, it was a time period where

everybody's house got robbed.

Oh my god. At some point.

Oh my god.

Um, and crack ravaged the area and

and the community.

And the community. And a friend of mine,

he put some in my hand

and he said, you know, if you really

want to make money, this is

this is how you do it.

Yeah.

And I looked at that and I just put it

away and I just thought, I need

something. I need something. And that

was dance.

Wow.

Yeah.

And were you still dancing at this time,

John? I was Have you carried on? Where

were you dancing?

I was uh it was a open class.

Okay. Ilia Dance Company

in a London education authority.

They had a dance company that I was part

of. Oh, um h what's his name? Tall guy.

He's currently in Edinburgh at the

moment. He danced with Michael Clark.

Oh, who would that be?

Um Matthew Hawkins. Matthew Hawkins.

Matthew.

I remember Matthew coming and and and

working with us and doing a class.

Um

yeah, I I'll never forget him cuz he had

blue hair at the time and I just thought

this is interesting.

Yeah. Yeah. these contemporary dancers

look like, you know, goth types, you

know what I mean?

And again,

that made me challenge the idea of

class.

Yeah.

Just to see someone who looked like a

goth. He didn't feel like he was

middle class or posh, you know.

And I'll never forget, he held my hands

and when I was doing second position,

just did that to extend them. You know

these little things that you'll never

forget for the rest of your life.

Well, it's like that your body feels

good, doesn't it? You know, if someone

says, "Oh, just do it like that."

You go, "Oh, that feels great,

actually."

Yeah.

Yeah. And um just sorry just on that

note you said about like just having

this awareness of class in that in those

moments and did

was that something that you'd felt

before or you know where where's the

kind of class narrative in these

experiences of dance and choosing what

to study at a level etc etc.

Okay. when I did um the youth project

Mhm.

with Royston Mun

in 1984. What a year that was

1984 at the place.

Mhm.

And this was the first time that I did a

dance project and I remember my dance

teacher at um at school, she said, "You

should go for this." And she

particularly

great

said I should do it.

Yeah. Um, which was a shame because I

would have liked some people locally to

come with me, but didn't happen.

Um,

so is that the first time you went to

the place as well?

Very first time I went to the place.

Okay.

And it changed my life.

Wow.

Yeah.

Um, partly because this was the first

time that I met middle class people.

Wow.

And you know, posh people and people

money. And I remember um me and someone

got a bit close on that project as you

do at 14.

Yeah.

You know,

your heart broken, John.

If anything, I went to a house and

the house was beautiful. Never seen a

house like this before.

Um nothing really happened between us

and I don't think I pushed it. I don't

think we would have really got on. But

just to see how the other half live

was was quite unique and and being in

dance kind of prepared me for that.

Also,

um there was this suggestion that if you

spoke well that you're more intelligent.

Well, that was proven that that's a load

of [ __ ]

I was like, okay, so posh people can be

thick.

So, that was a nice balance. I have to

say

that's the title for this podcast. It is

posh people can be thick. Totally.

So that was that was Yeah. So that was

the class thing in relation to that. Um

so you knew before even before doing

like your A levels and stuff there was

this place called the place where you

could go and train professionally.

Yes.

And you knew that from experiencing not

just reading a prospectus or seeing a

poster. You went in there, you did some

work, you were with artists, you were

with other people taking it as seriously

as you. Yes. And that's quite um a

formative experience, isn't it?

It it it absolutely

was part of the foundation of where I am

now. I mean,

after that experience,

the intention was always to go back to

the school.

Always.

Great.

Right.

Um and I went to Lewisham College. Oh,

the famous

Lewisham College. Oh, yeah. That's

popped up in other interviews. Yes. It's

It was an amazing course.

Um I think you know I met some amazing

teachers there. Do you remember Julie

Blackman?

God. Yeah. She taught us in first year.

She she we were in the same class in the

second year.

Yeah.

Cuz she did a degree, right?

That's it. She did the she was doing the

degree with us even though she was

teaching us a time because when she

studied years before there wasn't a

degree in dance so then she sort of

was on the faculty but also doing the

degree

doing the degree and so and you a level

with this

A level dance no I didn't do any A-level

dance I only did the you know as I said

law not law I was planning to do law

government politics sociology and econom

economics I left that after the first

year.

Yeah.

And then I took a year out

and then went to

then I went to a

and did you do like a H andd there or

something?

What did they call I think they called

it a foundation.

Oh, a foundation. Okay.

Because I went to Temp and did one year

in foundation. Yeah, there were these

foundation courses, right?

So after the first year, that was the

year in which my mom died.

So I kind of went off the rails.

Yeah. Unfortunately, the one teacher

that trusted me,

Buddy Watkins,

he was like, "Look, you've had a hard

year."

Yeah.

Um, and he did say that other members of

the faculty are doubting me, but I think

you should do one more year here and

then apply for the place.

Wow.

You will get in.

Great.

And that confidence was like, "Yes, I'm

going to do this."

You know, yeah. worked really yeah I

worked really hard you know I embraced

ballet

cuz I remember I was avoiding it for so

long and I I was avoiding wearing tights

I just didn't like them why do I have to

wear tights it was I just didn't like

it's a fair question

it is we have a photo of that please for

the website

imagine I've got I've got some photos do

um so yeah so basically I remember one

day I come running in late to ballet

class and I ran down just to do class

with my tracksuit bottoms pulled up as

tightly as possible.

Y

and um she said no um I only allow

people if you're wearing tights in this

class.

Okay.

So I said okay no worries.

Juliet Codlin. Do you remember Juliet?

Juliet was in our year.

Okay.

She was an amazing dancer. Black woman.

Amazing dancer. She's almost like had a

lot of extreme

extension.

Extension. Yeah.

But she wasn't like loose.

And that was what was really trendy in

dance at the time. She wasn't like that

at all. But she was an amazing dancer.

But anyway, she was at the top of the

stairs. She was like, "Oh, it's all

right. I've got a pair for you."

And the thing is, they were 10 denier

tights. Yeah.

So, and I didn't have a jock strap.

So I'm pulling them on top of my baggy

wife fronts and

it was a baptism of fire.

I bet. I bet.

But but equally after that I just didn't

have a problem with wearing that you can

wear anything.

Yeah. This is

And did it improve your uh love of

ballet at all? Um, you know what? How I

ended up getting into ballet was by

basically taking the piss. You know, I

just didn't necessarily believe in a

pole

and

this kind of showing,

you know, this kind of the way of

dancing and it just didn't feel right.

Yeah. And and and it didn't feel like

me.

So, I had to put on a character.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah,

I am Rudolph.

I am Rudolph right now.

And yeah, that was the only way I could

do.

You could do it. And you did it well.

It worked.

Amazing.

And then you got into the place.

Yeah.

And then I got into the place

and that's where we met.

And that's where we met.

Rachel Kru

was the most amazing ball of energy when

she danced. Yeah,

she still is.

You know, she, you know, she's not the

tallest, biggest person in the world,

but your energy would fill any space.

And I'll never forget

John.

And And there were times where I would

be behind you in doing um

uh what's it called? Um by the bar.

Yeah. And I remember copying you just

thinking,

"God, really?"

Yeah. You was an icon for me. You

John,

because you worked so hard and and it

was a real

propeller for me. It's like, "Yeah,

that's you know, and um I I never

thought it would happen, but it was

really great when we danced together."

Yeah. In a few also remember in second

year I asked you and Caroline Tonkin to

be in my choreography. I made a duet cuz

part of choreography module or whatever

and I asked uh Johnie and Caroline who I

thought were great and we did this duet

and I was like okay I've made that and

then it got chosen

to be in the final year performances

which was amazing wasn't it and then and

when it was chosen you could get

costumes made for it especially and

all of this stuff it was br it was so

like a drum

solo remember It was

honestly I don't remember.

Oh my god.

The costume will help me if you tell me

what.

Right. I tell I tell you what though. I

can do the first bit of it.

Excellent.

Right. So headphones on.

Oh, you wish you could see this right

now.

Right. John, you got to do a

description.

No, it was either you or Caroline ran on

from upstage left.

Upstage left. Running on.

And you went like that and

Oh god, I remember.

And then Caroline ran behind you. caught

your hand just before.

Yes.

And then you did all these um things

where you were flying up and down from

upstage to downstage and then sort of

catching each other.

Yes.

And it started with this little drum

symbols and it just got gradually got

louder and louder and crashing and

crashing and crashing.

Yeah.

I'd love to see that on video.

Maybe there is one.

You know what the thing is? The video

place.

Oh my god. Video.

They're very very good. And they've

digitized all of that stuff from the 80s

and '9s.

So it'd be great if we could see that.

Maybe that could be part of our Yeah. We

could have a little montage.

Yeah.

And you had your little You had little

short dreads at the time. And what I

loved because they were flying your hair

was flying an M. But it was

we were Anna Terresa Mackin before

anybody had heard of

Netflix. Yeah.

So, what was it like? So, of course, you

guys were at the place together.

Amazing. With some amazing people.

Um, and how was that that in terms of

because you talked about your social

experiences at school

of like actually your mates weren't

doing dance, but you still had this kind

of social capital.

Oh, god. Yeah.

But, and how was that at the place? Was

that how did that shift? at the place.

It was it was quite interesting because

I

Okay, so the friends that I grew up

with, they knew about that and had

access to that,

but I was just getting into the rap

scene.

Yeah.

Mhm.

And I was not confident telling these

new friends, you know, who had records

out and were in the industry and stuff,

I was really concerned about letting

them know

that you were dancing. was wearing

tights. I mean,

you know, I would say, "Yeah, I go to a

theater school." I just wouldn't say

dance. For some reason, I wasn't

confident with that. Yeah.

Um, so they just didn't know

until one day

where I saw Fro.

Oh, gorgeous. Frouso.

Me, me and I was with my boys and then

she come running up to me, "Do

hugged me and

And Froso has always been a stunner

in the, you know, tall, elegant woman,

beautiful Greek woman and with loads of

style,

fancied me. Okay, she might not have

fancied me. She might not have fancied

me, but it felt like she did sometimes.

But anyway,

this is an exclusive.

So she grabbed me and all my friends

were like,

"Wow,

is that you, John?

Is that you?" And then they wanted to

come to see shows.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I remember there was a couple

of um shows that we did that they'd come

along and they'd be hanging around and

it What's your name? What's your name?

And I remember um and I remember the we

were staying it was Natalie Ellie and

Vanessa. I think they were staying in

Hackne.

Ah just down the road from both.

Yeah. Yeah. So me and my friends, we

would all engage

and hang out together.

Really nice. So your two worlds.

Yes.

Beautiful. It was so nice because

they over overlapped. Do you know what I

mean? And

and it also just says something for me

about how we can just get on. And I know

it sounds a bit roasting. It's specky,

but all we need to do is just be around

each other. Yeah.

That's all we need.

And made friends. M you know and we all

find our relationships. It's not

dependent

on race, color,

ethnicity, sexual preference, none of

them things. And it is all dependent on

being in the space together

and just seeing if you get along and you

generally will.

And it makes me think back to your

country dance at school

and that holding hands with the people

around you, you know, being together,

you know, that's that's a shared value.

That's a moment, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think also our time at the

place, it was such a great year year

where we were just um saying yes to

everything. I think we were like the

year the cohort year that weren't

necessarily the most technically gifted,

but loads of us went on to have careers

because I think we were just so we were

Yes. people.

Yeah.

And we made a lot and gave a lot and we

we're in so many different pieces. And I

think also we were like this little

um cohort that would also collaborate

with the year above us and the year

below us and we were really sort of

super interconnected, weren't we? It was

a really amazing time.

It really was. And and people from the

year above I remember them saying you

guys have just brought a whole fresh

energy into the space.

But also what was another key thing was

um did she arrive in our third year?

can't remember maybe it was second year

but Victoria Marx

Yes.

came from New York joined the faculty

and then suddenly improvisation took off

in a huge way.

Yeah.

Which was really key and then also key

for me and Johny because um Vicky

invited me Johny and Anna Ponds to go to

Jacob's Pillow in America.

Yeah. after we just

so amazing

graduated to dance with

her and David Dorman and that was pretty

special.

That was so so special. So for me um

that project so firstly Vicky Marx she

changed my life. Yeah. And I'll say that

because when I talked to her about Yeah.

I want to do hip-hop. I want to do

hip-hop as theater. She was like so

excited. She wrote a letter to the then

principal at the time saying that this

needs to be supported this vision and

all that stuff.

And I remember just thinking another

thing about her choreography

choreography classes is that she

she didn't demonstrate.

It's true.

She would tell speak to us about an idea

that we then do the idea and she she

also didn't judge the ideas. She just

talked about everybody's different

perspective on this idea.

Amazing.

And I I just don't remember judgment,

right?

It was everything was welcome and

everything could be commented on and we

would talk about things but not

necessarily from a critical perspective

like oh that didn't work. Or some people

would say what really worked for me was

or this made me think of this or this

made me feel this way

or this made made me remember about

this.

It makes me think of Liz Lurman and

critical response process actually that

very much.

I mean I've taken her ideas and I'm I'm

using them now in when I do professional

development projects and stuff. Um it's

very um yeah it's just about not judging

too much but speaking about

is slightly different than judging. Do

you know what I mean?

And she really established that. And

and also

I would think a lot about her when I was

making my first show, Lyrical Theater.

Yeah.

it. What really helped was not having

these barriers over what it's meant to

look like, right?

And I was taking a lot from rap at the

time and rap was very hardcore at the

time.

And I wanted to bring that hardcore,

you know, voice of the voiceless,

freedom of your tongue

into the theater space.

Yeah. Yeah.

But okay. Um, I want to talk about that,

but I want to talk about how I got

there.

Yes, please do. Yeah.

So, um, when I first left, um, London

Contemporary Dance School,

I remember I had some options.

Ricochet dance.

Oh my god. Lovely ricochet.

They had a contract ready for me. Could

you sign this? You know, I was like,

you said no.

Okay. So, there was that.

I'm going to talk to Anna about that.

Speak to Anna.

Yeah.

There was that. And then MC Melo, a

rapper who I was working with,

okay,

said, "Johnsy, do you want to come on a

European tour with the famous groups

Gangar and Jroo the Damager for a tour

for five?"

Yeah, of course you

I was like, I know what I'm doing. I

know where my bread's buttered.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, so

that's the economist in you.

It was partly the economist, but

definitely cultural. And I'll tell you

why. Um, I felt that at the time the

contemporary dance scene, I didn't feel

that there was enough people that looked

like me.

Okay.

And who thought like me.

I was coming from quite a political

black perspective. you know, I was

really influenced by people like Public

Enemy, um, KRS1,

Bob Marley, and and for me,

I felt I felt that there was a lot of,

um, social subjects to discuss

that I didn't feel that I could discuss

with middleclass white people. I just

didn't think they got it.

And so, let's let's like rewind

slightly. So was that your kind of

dominant feeling of like when you were

studying at the place and thinking about

actually what is beyond this for me? Did

you have like a sense of I want a career

in this world and did you feel like that

was possible?

I looked at the next year

as my goal.

Mhm.

I had no sense of what I was going to do

to leave. All I wanted to do was be in

the next the top class this year. The

top class cuz I was in the lower classes

when we first went.

Yeah.

By the third year, I was in top ballet

and top contemporary.

Um and that was it in my tights proudly,

you know.

Rocking those tights,

you know what,

I might add. And

so I love hip-hop. We could just dress

in baggy clothes. Yeah.

So, let let's segue into um I'm just

thinking about like so you said

we sort of leaprog backwards, but just

thinking about you wanted to be in that

hip-hop world. You know, you went to New

York.

So, you got these two worlds.

What were you going to watch? What were

you going to watch?

Yes.

When you're at the place, what what were

you immersing yourself in outside of

that world?

Yeah.

At the place.

Yeah. I'll never forget when Vim Van

and I was just like, "Oh my days, this

is it. This is how I see it." Yeah.

Because I felt that when he with his

movement,

there wasn't any epormo like kind of

trying to be pretty. Yeah.

Well, it was just when Euro crash was

like

Yeah. time

totally burst on the scene and it was

like energy beyond belief, wasn't it?

Energy running and just looking rolling.

Yeah. Looking cool, you know.

For me, that that

that was when I started to connect more

with the concept of contemporary dance

beyond the technique that we were told

was contemporary dance, which I was

always like, this is neocclassical.

This this didn't feel like contemporary

dance, you know, pointed pointed Yeah,

cuz actually I remember like the the rep

that we learned as students was very it

was it was like Paul Taylor wasn't it

and stuff like that and Forest like

Robert Cohen. So it was that near

classical end of rep that we were

learning and yet we were making

far more experimental works actually but

still with a little

foot in the neocclassical in terms of

influence because that was

we knew was valued I suppose from the

school that we were

Yeah. We're training it every day. It's

going to be something that is going to

be part of making work cuz our bodies

are made like that.

Yeah.

So I felt

that okay so one of the challenges I

felt was culturally I didn't feel that

contemporary dance the scene was working

for me

but hip-hop so

started changing. Yeah. hip hop started

getting into this gangster madness.

And what And what sort of time are we

talking then?

Mid90s.

Mid90s. This this east coast, West Coast

gangster thing. And And I remember

growing up with hip-hop as it being a

socially conscious movement in which

people were encouraged to fight the

power and don't believe the hype, you

know, and and

um by any means necessary. and and h e l

h e a l human education against lies

and um and selfdestruction. There was a

track called self-destruction where all

these rappers got together to talk about

the ills of society and what was going

on.

that whole movement was replaced by this

nihilistic

kind of angry

um black-on-black violence thing that

was that was personified by Biggie

Smalls and Tupac.

Yeah.

At the time I was like, I'm sorry, this

is not what I

signed up for.

I signed up for the original values of

hip-hop, which is peace, love, unity,

and having fun. Yeah.

So I felt disillusioned with

contemporary dance and with hip- hop at

the time

yet I loved them.

So what could I do? And that was when I

started making my work lyrical theater

which was bringing back that socially

conscious hip-hop but also using

contemporary dance ideas in the precinia

march to do it there.

Yeah. It's really interesting because I

always remember that. So, we were

invited by Vic to join her at Jacob's

Pillow. So, me

uh Johny and Anna got on a flight to

Boston and me and Anna got through c uh

customs really quickly and then we had

to sit and wait for John who was you

know a young man with dreads locks and

he was questioned for like was it two

hours even or something? It it it was it

it felt like about an hour to be honest

with you.

Maybe it was an hour.

Maybe for you guys it might have felt

longer.

We were just so me and Anna were just so

worried and worried for John Z.

And then he finally got through

which was like such a huge relief. So

there were

no but then I remember like jump forward

a like two weeks later being on a break

like and we're standing outside this

gorgeous theater Jacob's Pillow is in

the heart of the Catskills. It's this

this sort of like

utopian dance place

and then we were chatting with the

director of Jacob's Pillow. He was

sitting there in his suit and you

started doing like what for me was like

the early airplane man

as well just started rapping about and

he was completely transfixed as well. Oh

yeah.

So that and for me like that that also

that experience of going through

security to get gain entry into a a

country

which was still like a real

physical uh memory for us that the for

for me and Anna being physically worried

for John and then get but getting

through and getting there

and then and then after Jacob Pillar we

we just all went to New York together.

We remember we remember we drove to in

somebody gave us a lift, the three of

us.

Yes, that's right.

And it was amazing. It was amazing. And

we drove down Broadway with um

Oh, what's he called? Um

on Broadway. Oh, what's he called? You

know, the most famous

I've just had a brain.

Yeah, I know.

George Benson. George Benson on

Broadway.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, it was the best thing ever. But

sorry, back to you, John. But that it

was like a key time, wasn't it?

That was a key time. And that particular

project was a key time for me

because what came together were all of

my passions in the mecca of them.

Yeah.

Cuz New York was big when it comes to

contemporary dance and all of the

people.

We performed at the M Cunningham

building. You remember that?

Yeah. We It was incredible. That's

amazing. We were just like and and

but not only that,

we're all about 21 or 22.

Yeah, 21 22 go. But also remember it was

the mecca of hip-hop.

And this was my first time go. So when

we were driving in I was buzzing simply

because this is the first time I'm going

to go to the mecca of hip-hop culture,

you know.

Um it was really exciting. I was staying

in Classen Green and Classen in Brooklyn

in a warehouse. Um, a couple of people

actually Natalie McDonald, she went to

America.

Oh, God. On a swap.

UCLA, I think. Yeah.

No. Oh, she went to LA though.

Yes, that's right. But this guy who she

connected with was in LA at the same

time.

But then he went to New York and that

was the connection. And I stayed round

at his warehouse.

Amazing.

And this was the the whole concept

living in

Amazing. and just being around hip-hop.

I was walking around and it felt like

this is a hip-hop video, but I'm in it.

It's true.

So, it was a really special time that

period for me and also just feeling like

a professional dancer cuz we went to

America the year after we just finished

school.

Yeah.

You know, incredible.

It was an incredible experience.

Yeah.

Some good friendships made. some great

friendships. Well, here you are.

And here we are still.

That's right.

Can't believe it. Yeah.

I'm going to send uh Vicki, who I'm

still with in touch with. She lives in

uh LA. She works She's a professor at

UCLA.

I was with her when she come to London.

We did a film.

Ask her about the film we made.

I will. And I'm going to send her this

podcast.

Yeah, for sure. Cool.

Right. So, this is around the time

you're making Airplane Man, right? Tell

us about that.

So, Aeroplane Man, it was made in the

context of a performance poetry event

that we were doing at the Oval House in

the the small theater up upstairs.

Yeah.

And it was like, okay, this is the

chance to try these two things to to

bring them together. I worked with Benji

Reed.

Yeah.

And um I I spoke to him about Airplane

Man. I said, "Yeah." So, could you play

the character that I'm the characters

that I meet each time?

Uhhuh.

And he said, "No, Johny, you play the

character."

And I was like, "I can't do that. I'm

not an actor."

Um, and but yeah, he encouraged me to to

do that. Yeah.

So I played so basically airplane man is

a story of um me

basically

from East London

on a global journey to find home.

Yeah.

And how it come about is I traveled to

Grenada as a kid

a few times but then when I went on my

own um I I I said I'm Grenadian and they

said you're not gerian way. You're that

English boy. And there was a lot of

cultural circumstances that I couldn't

connect with. You know, simple things

like walking with bare feet.

Yeah.

My feet were soft and English. Yeah.

Working on concrete. I didn't we didn't

ground. We didn't do any grounding. You

know what I mean? Whereas everybody in

Grenade did.

Yeah.

Um so there's a few things that made me

question, damn, well maybe I'm not

Grenadian. Mhm.

So then I went to Jamaica to feel a

sense of home there because also in

Grenada they laughed at me because I was

speaking with a Jamaican influenced

accent.

Oh wow.

Do you know what I mean?

Wow.

So So there was all these complicated,

you know what I mean?

So I made this solo which involved me

running on the spot. So I I was either

running away from or running to

somewhere. Mhm.

Um, started in England, then went to

Grenada, then Jamaica, then ended up in

Africa,

and I never found home until I realize

that once I'm comfortable with myself.

Yeah.

So, the last line is, um, I'm never far

from home when my body is my kingdom and

the throne is in my dome.

Beautiful.

Beautiful.

Just be comfortable with yourself. You

can be anywhere you want, you know. Um

anyway, so I performed that piece in

this context of a poetry event and they

went mad. They absolutely loved it.

They've not seen anything like this

before. I can move and I can also do

poetry. Why am I not

really wrapping these things up together

and making a form

based upon that?

Um so that was the real influence for

making airplan

that was it. So, so would you say that

your performance poetry is coming from

that

very much so

working-class demographic?

Very much so. To be honest with you,

I don't think I would have been able to

create

lyrical theater if it wasn't embedded in

that community.

Right.

There's no way I could have created

lyrical theater at the place.

Right.

Yeah. Yeah,

there just wasn't the cultural um bounce

back

that I had in the performance poetry

scene where everybody was wanting to

talk about change and everybody was

using their words to to to really go

into what they're experiencing

politically,

you know.

Um and I didn't get that that much in

dance or at least the politics wasn't

the politics I was interested in. Yeah.

So, being part of that performance

poetry environment really helped me to

free my creative voice and combine all

of these different elements.

Um,

and do you think that part of that kind

of creative um maybe like that range of

creative input, do you think that that

maybe connects back to your family

context?

Absolutely. Yeah.

Absolutely. Um, keeping in mind, you

know, I I was interested in acting, you

know, and I was interested in musicals.

Um, not so much musicals as in

what was done before and what was

established as a musical, but new

musicals. What What else can we do?

Instead of singing, we could rap.

Yeah.

Instead of necessarily doing, you know,

ISTD jazz, you know, Matt Mats,

we can do hip-hop dance styles. M

um you know the DJ can be the the

musician.

Yeah. God. Yeah.

And and graffiti can be set design and

Yeah. Yeah.

I ended up making a piece like that

later, but we'll get into that later.

Um so for me, I was always excited by

what I'd learned at the place of how to

use this space, but to fill it with

hip-hop culture

and something a bit different. So talk

to us more then about how you did that

after a airplane man.

Okay. So after airplane man um so that

was a solo um and then I was thinking

about collaboration working with people

and actually I was thinking about what

else do I want to say.

Um one of the things I wanted to do was

deal with police brutality.

Um Steven Lawrence was murdered. Yeah.

Just a little bit before that. Mhm.

Actually, it wasn't so much a Steven

Lawrence thing that that appeared in

another piece I did called Safe. But let

me talk about the first duet that I did

which was with B Boy Banksy.

Wow.

Richard Banks. Do you know him?

No.

He trained at Northern School of

Contemporary Dance.

But he held on to his breakin.

Wow.

Big time. Held on to He's from Swindon.

He does a lot of work with Swindon.

I know him from Swindon because Marie

Husky Championship.

Exactly. Okay. Y exactly.

We're all connected.

Absolutely.

All go back there.

The first I made with was with him and

it was called Guilty

and he played a copper

and I played someone who got nicked.

Yeah.

Um and it was a really intense duet. It

involved him um ending the piece

wrapping me up in police tape and

choking me to death. You know, it's very

intense. Um, but it was great to work

with Banksy on it because he's so not

that guy and it was kind of easier cuz

he wasn't that guy, but he was able to

play the role really well.

Um,

but yeah, it was a it was a dangerous

piece cuz it involved him

um

banging my head into a table.

Gosh.

But the way it was done, obviously I was

using my hands to do it, but but it was

such a surprise that it didn't look it

looked like I hurt myself. Um the

reality is

across the time of us performing that

piece, we must have done it maybe 15

times.

Um I would lose dreadlocks.

Oh

because of the way he would hit my

gosh.

I mean it was really intense.

But to be honest with you,

I really it had to be intense. Also, we

got to big up people like Nigel Char

who would really push the boat out

and and that was a good influence for

me. It allowed me to be, you know what,

go for it. Just say it. Say what you

want to say to be said.

Um,

and yeah, it was it was that was my

first collaboration. Um, and I worked

with him because he was a break, so that

understood theater. And I guess that you

probably had some like shared sense of

body movement and practice, you know,

like something in your embodiment that

connected you because you're invested in

the same area of practice.

Absolutely. And and I think so I ended

up getting a group of dancers together

to do my first show, Lyrical Theater.

Um, there was a duet that I did where I

was kind of in the middle and I'd be

doing rapping and I'd be doing certain

movements with one group with one guy

and certain movements with another. And

one side was meant to be conflict and

challenge and the other side was meant

to be um balance and we do loads of

counterbalance things while I was

speaking.

Um, and yeah, it was great. What was

that piece? That piece was called

cracked mirror.

Okay.

So, it was about looking at yourself,

but is cracked and all of the It was

about black-on-black violence. This

term, which actually makes no sense cuz

we don't talk about white-on-white

violence,

but that happens.

Yeah.

Um, so it was exploring that.

So, with these pieces, were they

performed in uh what kind of spaces were

they actually shown in? So did were they

touring on like the contemporary dance

circuit?

They were. They were.

The first tour that we did was with um

at Swindon dance with Marie

McCcluskey. Lovely.

And then would your mates back in bow

come and seen this work?

They would. Great.

They would. And I was so proud to bring

them to these shows, you know.

Um you know, rather than what I maybe

would have ended up doing in

contemporary dance.

Yeah. Um, if anything, I had more of an

audience with the hip-hop um, community

and they would come.

They would come and fill the theater.

They would come. So, the first show we

did was Oval House.

Um, it was downstairs in 100 seater.

There was 120 people. There was people

standing up by the side, you know, fire

risks.

There was enough fire on the stage at

the time we didn't need to worry about.

Um, so that was that show. And then when

I did the place, um, John Ashford, I

invited John Ashford to see the John

Ashford, rest in peace.

I invited him to see the show at the

Oval House. He said, "We're not doing

resolutions. We're going straight into

spring loading. We did a Wednesday

night.

Sold out. There were returns cues around

the side. It was amazing. And that

particular show, it felt like the

greatest show that I ever did.

And it was mainly because nobody had

seen this

anything like it

in that kind of context.

In that context,

in that space. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Um and and yeah, I I went full kilter

like the language was quite extreme and

some of the subjects were extreme.

So were you getting like Arts Council

funding at this point?

Yes, at that point I did. Actually, no.

at that stage. No, I hadn't. Um, I was

paid a fee, um, which just about managed

to stretch cuz I had a live band as well

that I was working with.

Um, and then I was artist in residence

at the place for that year and then I

got my funding after that.

Yeah. Yeah. Great. Wow. Going up in the

world.

It was going up in the world and and and

at the time I I I felt like the it was

limitless. the potential.

The potential

cuz there wasn't anybody doing that type

of work.

So for me

um so the next thing that happened is I

we did the Barclay's stage partners got

money from

and um I did a tour of one piece which

was which was a airplane man. So most of

the pieces in that work were solos,

duets or trios.

And it was an album. The first half was

very raw, very harsh, I guess. The

second half was a little bit funny, had

a bit more humor in it.

Um, the first half had was just a DJ.

The second half was with a live band.

Um, and so the piece era play out of

that. We extended that. So each country

that I went to was a whole scene.

We toured with nine dancers and five

musicians. Amazing.

We had a whole set and everything.

Um and we toured up and down the

country. We did Manchester contacting.

We did Newcastle. We did leads. Um

what's it dance?

Carriage works.

Yorkshire dance.

Yorkshire dance.

Um

cool. Or

was it carriage? No, it was Orchard

Dance. Um, we did a few venues. I can't

remember off the top of my head. You

know, the gray matter starts to fail

after a while, but um, but yeah,

the workingass boy from B did good.

Did good. We ended up doing um the Royal

Festival Hall.

Yeah.

Not the Royal Festival,

Queen Elizabeth Hall.

Queen Elizabeth Hall twice.

And Alistister Spalding, he was working

there. Yeah. as head of dance

and he said to me,

"Johnsy, have you got any more work like

this? What's your next piece?"

And I said, "You know what? I'm not

really that excited about me doing

work."

But what I'd experienced is touring

lyrical theater internationally, I saw

loads of other companies that were doing

hip-hop

dance-based work. So I I said to him,

"No, let's do a a festival

of hip-hop dance work."

Yeah.

Um I wasn't interested I was more on a

political level about justifying hip-hop

in these spaces.

I wasn't so much interested in me doing

my work, which was hip-hop as well, but

I was I wanted a community. I wanted to

show that this isn't John's thing. This

is

theater's thing.

Yeah. And theater needs to open up its

doors for this type of work.

And would you say that hip-hop is is

coming from a working class route?

Absolutely. Like there's no doubt about

that.

Hip-hop came from adversity.

Yeah. Hip-hop came from

not literally the streets. I Okay. I

it's an interesting way of describing

this form

that is from the streets.

Yes, there was an element of that in

that in the Bronx electricity would be

taken from street lamps to play music

outdoors,

you know. So, there was that, but

obviously it happened indoors as well.

What happens when it rains for you know

what I mean?

Yeah. Your cardboard would get all soggy

and you couldn't spin on your head.

Especially in West Yorkshire, it rains

all the time.

So um you know I think that the the term

street dance felt more like a

description of the social context in

which this form came from.

Yeah.

You know

um

obviously we can question that now

because it's the dance itself featured a

lot in commercial dance content you

know. So people would liken that to

something that is about a quick fix, a

quick performance. Hey, people jumping

tricks,

tricks. Hey, you know,

um but anybody that's part of hip-hop

culture, we know it's a lot more than

that. And there's a whole um philosophy

that is behind the culture which comes

from

um the adversity from which it was born,

you know. Yeah,

it wasn't like classical ballet with

Louis the 6, 17, 18, I don't know, but

Louis, King Louie in France,

who codified this dance form which came

from the court dances, do you know what

I mean? It was a very different social

context for sure.

And and I think that

that anything in which you walk into a

building and there is someone that's

going to teach you how it's done, you

know, that's not social dance. That's

you. Yeah. I mean, it's like you're

talking about democracy, right? Like

like democratizing those spaces and

actually hip-hop being a vehicle through

which that can be more possible perhaps

like and and interesting that it comes

from this place of adversity or like

marginalization or being on the fringes

or something that is other or outside of

you know these dominant forms. But

actually the the possibility in that to

think about dehierarchalizing

that's not a word but

it's a brilliant word dehierarchalizing.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes,

but I also think it's interesting, John,

because you just said um that at the

time, you know, you felt that this was

limitless and I think that's such a

lovely image and feeling and I think

much of what we're discussing on this

series is about the procarity and the

challenges and the feeling of having to

fight to rationalize and justify the art

form of dance. And I think it's really

refreshing to hear about

this being like feeling limitless. And I

just think what what was it that made

you feel like that at the time? Was it

about the art form or

it was clearly the art form

and meaning that um the the the form of

breaking the form of popping all of

these forms they are seen mostly in a

battle context in which

iron is sharpening iron all the time

with this culture. One of the

responsibilities that you have doing

these dance forms is you have to bring

something new to the table.

Yeah.

Cuz if not, you are a bit to win the

battle. Cuz if you do a move that was

done by this other dancer,

you know, even months ago, people are

going to recognize it and say, "You're a

biter."

And they'll do this gesture

or this gesture. Yeah. So everybody who

does this dance is forced to be original

with it, you know, and I think that

that's at the root of what people are

trying to do in contemporary theater.

You want to do something new, fresh.

So, so every individual within hip-hop

culture is coming to the table with a

whole bag of new moves that the

choreographers not seen.

Yeah.

So I just think that we are in a really

good position to change the face of what

dance theater looks like.

Yeah.

Simply because of this responsibility

that every dancer has to be original.

Yeah. Yeah.

And how so Alistister was at the South

Bank and then he um went to Saddles

Wales and so did in did Alistister take

you with him there then? What how was

that? Because in a way we we see

um Saddles Wells as quite at the top of

a hierarchy in terms of the the size and

the the prestige

the prestige of it. Yeah. And the and

all the symbols that come with that

and often you know they program very

uh companies that might perhaps be seen

as high art for some Yes.

you know. So, how was it for you to

enter that space and really plant hip

hop in that space as well?

Okay. I when I first went to Saddler's

Worlds, I saw Forest.

Oh, God. Robert Cohen.

Yes.

And I remember thinking to myself, "Wow,

this is so cool that this dance that

hasn't got no music to it, but just

these sounds of forestry." You just

wanted to wear the the unard, didn't

you?

Their types were were were brown and

green and they Yes. And just all of

that, I just remember thinking to

myself, this is a great stage for doing

weird stuff,

you know.

Interesting.

So, it it it I don't for me, my

experience of that space wasn't set up

with regular commercial ballet or

commercial dance at all. It was the most

abstract and this is before I went to

London Contemporary and I remember just

being

so excited by the weirdness of this

these abstract images when I was much

younger

to quote unquote understand them. I mean

I fully got it.

Yeah. Um,

I mean, if I think about it though, for

me, even like back in the ' 90s and

stuff when I was a jobbing dancer in

London, it it never saddlers Wells

always felt very accessible to me. It

was never like um like I would have

to me the Royal Opera House would have

been a bit posh for me. Yeah.

But Saddler's Wells at that time never

felt too posh. It it was like that's the

home of contemporary dance. So it felt

like there was a different feeling there

in terms of

like class hierarchy or something which

is kind of interesting.

Yes.

And you were

feeling that way too I suppose.

Well well what I what I wanted to do was

exorize

these classist demons. Mhm.

And what was in intentional was breaking

the convention of these spaces.

Yeah.

You know, that was important for me.

What was important for me was we want to

get an alternative voice

and a hip-hop voice which is actually

not as alternative as we think. It's

actually becoming the dominant voice of

culture.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Under this roof.

Under this roof.

Yeah. you know, and I and I was always

very conscious of of of making it feel

hip-hop. Hence the reason why we have

graffiti

sprayed directly onto the white walls of

the mezzanine area,

why we have DJs playing as soon as you

get to the the the building.

Yeah.

Um, we didn't want to feel as though we

had to be high,

as in high art. As a matter of fact, in

one of our first um panel discussions

that we had on the first breaking

convention,

um I remember Alistister saying, "Yes,

and and in these venues of high art and

and I said,

"Okay, so what's low art?

If there is high art, what is low art?"

And obviously that was a difficult

question asking that,

you know,

question. Yeah,

I don't think the question was answered.

I think somehow he got jumbled in.

Well, you're talking about someone who's

a sir now.

Yes. You know,

which is interesting.

Yeah.

Because

I was offered an MBE.

Yes. Right. Tell us about this.

Come on.

So, um I had nothing to do obviously

with the application. Yeah. Um, Emma

Dowen, who um used to be called Emma Pon

No, Emma, she used to be called Emma

Dowen, but she got married and got

called Emma Ponzford. She was part of

the getting the um information together

and she said to Alistister,

Alistister, do you think John's going to

take this?

Interesting.

Cuz she knew me.

Yeah.

Yeah, she knew me. She had we had a much

closer relationship and apparently

Alistister said no, he'll be flattered.

Yeah.

Um did a big take at that point

for the listeners.

Um when I heard when I I received the

letter

Mhm. Does it come with a big like crest?

The

It's like

thick paper.

Yep. Yeah, it was top quality.

Really good quality.

And it said um Yeah. So it gave me two

options.

Um will you So it was given to me for my

services to dance.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And um and I was honored, but my my head

fell into my hand when I saw it

cuz I was thinking, how am I going to

tell these lovely people who made this

application for me that I'm not going to

take it? Sounds disrespectful, you know.

Um,

and did you know immediately you weren't

going to take it?

Immediately.

And why?

Because of the name

empire.

Yes.

Member of the British Empire. This

empire is

this empire exists because of the way in

which it went around the world and just

took

everybody else's resources and enslaved

people made them speak English told them

that their culture was not worthy like

all of these things

and and now I've got to wear that on my

heart.

Yeah.

So it was a very easy for thing for me

to turn down. Very easy. What was

difficult was explaining to people

the over and over again why I was doing

it

and not thinking to myself,

don't you think this is an obvious thing

that I should turn down? Do

you know what I mean? Not just me,

anyone. Was it Tony Ben?

He turned his down and what famous a lot

of people loads of people like I think

um David Bowie turned one day. Yeah.

But I I would imagine for some people as

well, it's it's a difficult one to

navigate and decide and and unpack for

them and untangle for them. Yeah.

Well, after calling my wife,

Yeah.

the next phone call that I made when I

received it

was to Benjamin Zephaniah. Rest in

peace.

Oh, rest in peace. And he turned his

tone, right?

Famously turned out he's OB and he made

a documentary about it called NoB.

Yeah.

And so I spoke to him and I

I love it that you can just call him up.

You could have just called him up.

Just one of my jealous numbers, you

know.

I just said his name in the

Benjamin Jeff and I ring ring

John.

Well, I can't do a Brummy accent.

I'm not even going to try. Um so, um he

said, "Johnzy, you know, I just made my

decision. You got to make yours, you

know. Um, but what's important to know

is he did some research on the on of of

of people like us, black male artists,

and looked at the trajectory of the

career of the people that received it.

Wow. Interesting. And he done he he did

his research and he said he couldn't see

any significant shift in the trajectory

of the careers of these people that took

them.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And and and

I thought, well, that kind of makes

sense if you look at the evidence that

it didn't there was no significant

shift. Yeah.

So I thought, okay, so what would happen

if you didn't take it?

Yeah.

Would there be a downward shift in your

trajectory? And he said, no, there was

no shift whatsoever. Yeah.

So the idea that if I take it, things

would be be better. There was no

evidence to prove that. M

um and if anything there was some

evidence to suggest other you know the

alternative for example there were some

people that we did research about who

received theirs and we didn't hear that

much about them afterwards it's not like

their career blew up or anything like

that.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um so so so that was the case and

then I was thinking okay so um so anyway

I ended up making a solo about Of

course. Yeah,

of course you did.

Um, and this was after a while of not

making work, not necessarily being

inspired to make work. I was much more

inspired

to to help others.

Yeah.

So, when this happened, I was like,

"Okay, I've got to do a piece about

this." So, I made a piece

and it was much more um word-based. Um,

and it was

the voices of all of the people who had

something to say about it. Right.

So, I played Alistister. Mhm.

I played um a a young kid that I bought

weed from

and his mom

who was really upset that I didn't take

it

because she she was in she wanted me to

take it because she wanted me to be a

visual role model for her son

who was selling drugs.

Gosh.

Yeah. So she wanted me to take it. So

her son can see that there was an

alternative thing. Yeah. Yeah. And

there's also a a case for someone

visually who looks like you walking into

that space and collecting your medal.

Absolutely. And it's important for

people who look like you

to be invited into that space as well.

So that's another reason to take it as

well.

That is another reason to take it. But

my argument with that

go on

was do I need verification?

Yep. From that as well.

From these people who were clearly not

necessarily on my side.

Yeah.

Yeah.

David Cameron.

Oh god. Really?

Oh [ __ ]

Was it the time when he was in charge of

whoever's in charge? Whoever is in

charge. The only person maybe Jeremy

Corbyn if he ever got the chance to be

in that position, but there's none of

them. None of them.

The royal family, absolutely not.

Mhm.

Yeah.

Do you remember when Prince Andrew

Oh, God. He

came to our because he was a one of

a contemporary dance school,

right?

Yeah, he was.

Yeah.

And I remember doing a piece for a

fundraiser at the the Lindbury Studios.

Yeah. Yeah. And I was asked to go and

shake his hand. Yeah. Yeah. And nobody

knew at the time. It was Everyone was

excited. Oh, Johny, Prince Andrew wants

to meet you. And he shook my hand. Can I

show you how he did it?

Oh.

As I shook his hand, he pushed my hand

away.

Oh god.

Yeah. But I think that that's what they

do. They're trying to show you who you

are in relation to them.

And I was less than him. And he made me

feel like that with the handshake.

Oh my god.

Yeah.

So, I've got no love for the royal

family. None.

Yeah. It also reminds me sometimes we've

been talking in this series about how

like moments in particularly existing in

like a dance sphere that you might have

felt uh like a bit like acutely aware of

like your class or your identity. And

certainly there's like an intersectional

thing going on for you particularly in

relation to what you've just talked

about as well. But, you know, have there

been moments like that?

Well, that was definitely

that was definitely one.

And did you feel like wobbled by it? But

or did you feel

like you antagonized?

It was too late. He did it too quick. I

couldn't I couldn't fight it.

It was already done.

And it was only after the fact I was

like, "Oh, wanker."

Do you know what I mean? I really felt

that from him. I thought to myself,

"You're a wanker. I don't like you. I

didn't like how you made me feel."

Yeah. you know.

Yeah.

Um

Gosh.

So, yeah. And and just the idea of being

at the wherever they give the these

trinkets out and just having them just

talk and oh yes, you're doing very well.

Congratulations.

And I just didn't want to be subject to

that.

Yeah.

So, no. S it. I didn't do it. Not not

anyway. I made a great

I had a great experience making the

piece. Yeah. Yeah. What a great feeling

to come out of that

it and you know it was the last piece

I've done and as a matter of fact it was

Emma Gladstone rest in peace again that

woman she was so so so

supportive and she was the one that said

Johnsie where's your new piece we want a

new piece and this sounds like a good

subject you can make okay Emma I'm going

to do it

yeah everyone said yes to Emma everyone

said yes to Emma she was absolutely

so She was important for our dance scene

and you know we've lost someone who was

great and I'm just waiting to see who's

going to take her place cuz we need

someone like that.

Yeah.

So do you think so this podcast is

called Moving Stories of Leveling Up,

right?

This is going to open the floodgates.

Yeah. And and we are intentionally being

provocative by calling it that. So

a couple of things really. Do you think

you've leveled up or what do you

think that term means to you? Is it a

positive? Is it a negative? Is it a a a

complicated

notion?

And has dance

and yeah, have you leveled up via dance?

Okay. So level up the way in which I

will interpret that is a very personal

sense of am I developing? Am I am I what

what what what is development for me?

And for me development

is how have I been able to allow the

community to level up cuz leveling up on

my own means nothing. Absolutely

nothing. But if

I can access my community and level them

up then yes. So yes we have leveled up.

Breaking convention we are doing our

23rd year.

Oh my god. Yeah. Incredible.

Um,

amazing.

What a legacy.

We've allowed loads of people who

probably didn't see the theater as being

somewhere where they could go, but they

like to dance.

Here's an opportunity for you. You know,

um, I think that the the the effect that

we've had on contemporary dance and

inverted commas has been distinct.

And you've seen the hip-hop vocabulary

in a lot of contemporary dance and

spaces.

You could look at people like um

uh I don't know who anyone anyone who's

doing really well in contemporary dance

what's his name

um

Israeli choreographer he hes you can see

a lot of this type of language in his

work and he will tell you yes I'm

influenced and I love hip-hop and and

acid jazz and stuff we we had that

conversation you know

um um what's the other Israeli

choreographer woman,

uh,

Jasmine Vardmar. Jasmine,

she works with hip hoppers in her work,

you know what I mean?

And then you've got people like, um,

Ivan Blackstock winning Olivier Awards

for the work that he's doing, you know?

Um, what's his name? Another dancer.

He'll be so upset that I forgot his

name.

Dixon.

Okay. He's doing stuff with the ballet

and the ballet company in

Scotland, Scottish Ballet. Scottish.

Um, and he's coming from a hip-hop

perspective, you know what I mean? But

he ended up doing a lot of work in

contemporary dance, working with Russell

Malifly.

Absolutely.

Um, so it's great to see not only

hip-hop getting a chance to do theater,

but contemporary dance being influenced

by

by hip-hop culture. For sure. So, so for

me, the the whole scene has leveled up

via hip-hop. And I'm not going to take

credit for that.

I'm not going to take credit for that.

All I will say is that the community

that I'm from Yeah.

have leveled up.

Beautiful.

That's really beautiful.

Are you going to wrap us out, John?

Yeah.

Wrap you out. What's the name of this

podcast again?

Uh, dancing class.

Dancing class

or class.

Class. How would you say it?

Class. class.

Okay. So, I'm not So, we'll say class.

Would you say class?

Yes.

And if you're like an East boy, is it

class?

Definitely class.

Definitely class.

And um I I wouldn't say that we leveled

up. I'd say that the rest of culture

have come to meet us.

Yes.

How about that?

Yes. Totally an

Thank you for

Thanks, John. traveling up north.

Absolute pleasure. Thank you for

inviting me.

Um I just think it's really important

that we keep talking, you know, cuz

right now in the world today, there's so

much division.

Yeah.

There's so much blame and the idea of

people blaming migrants

for the biggest problems in society, you

are losing the point.

Yeah. There's people that run society

that are playing us all. Yeah. And we're

fighting amongst ourselves for stuff we

should not be fighting. We're fighting

against each other cuz we're all brock

pocket. We're skint. We haven't got the

money. There's this so-called financial

crisis that's happening. But actually,

there's communities that are making more

money than they've ever made.

Yeah.

Yeah. And once we start looking at that,

then maybe we can find solutions. But

we're not gonna find them by blaming

people that have got nothing.

Nothing have got by blaming people who

have the least.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's disgusting. We need to fix up. You

know what I mean? And and I'm hoping the

arts and culture can bring us closer

together.

Yeah.

And yes, that's what I my answer to it

all. I've got all of the answers.

You've got all the answers. I think we

can save the world through dance.

We can.

I've always thought that.

Absolutely.

Yes. That's the one thing that we can't

argue about.

100%.

Boom.

Thank you.

Boom.

Thanks, Johny.

Thank you.

Thanks for listening to this episode of

the Dancing Class podcast. We hope that

you enjoy the rest of the series. Please

do keep in touch with us via socials

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the web page where you can also contact