Tanya Richam Odoi reflects on her journey from a working-class childhood in Dundee to a successful career as a dancer, teacher, and craniosacral therapist. She describes how a chance encounter with community dance at Dundee Rep transformed her life, providing a sense of belonging, purpose, and opportunity during a challenging family period.

The conversation explores dance as a vehicle for confidence, social mobility, and self-discovery, taking Tanya from local community projects to Northern School of Contemporary Dance, Phoenix Dance Theatre, and DV8. She also discusses class, identity, imposter syndrome, and the importance of accessible arts provision for young people. Passionate and candid, Tanya argues that dance can change lives, build community, and offer opportunities that might otherwise be out of reach.

Date Recorded: 27th March 2025

Sound Recordist: Igor Mieczkowski

Editing: Dr Laura Taylor

Audio accompaniment: Dr Jess Blaise Ward

Audio accompaniment mastering: Michael Ward

Hi, I'm Laura.

0:10

>> Hi, I'm Rachel. And this is the dancing class podcast

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>> made possible by the British Academy, Lever Hume Small Research Grant Fund and

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Leeds Becket University. In this series, we invite dance industry professionals

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from working-class backgrounds in the UK to talk about their experience of dance

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education and their careers. We're interested in discussing the ways in

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which dance can be a vehicle for class mobility in the UK and contributes to

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discourses around leveling up. This series also researches the role of dance

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as a catalyst for social and economic progress. Some of our discussions take

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place while dancing and are recorded with spatial sound. This creates an

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immersive effect and the best listening experiences via the use of headphones.

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These recordings will be labeled as binaural. We hope that you enjoy the

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series.

1:00

>> Thanks for tuning in.

1:03

>> Tanya Richum Adoi.

1:05

>> Hello. Welcome.

1:07

>> Thank you. Hello Rachel.

1:09

>> Hello there Tanya. It's absolutely lovely to see you.

1:13

>> And you as well. We've already connected with a limbo.

1:18

>> It's already started Rachel. We've already started to we'll get on to that

1:22

business another time maybe.

1:24

>> Save that story though. Yeah, definitely.

1:27

>> Yeah.

1:27

>> Um, thanks for joining us, Tanya.

1:29

>> You're welcome. Thank you very much for inviting me. This is great. Pleasure.

1:33

>> Um, we wondered if you could just start by talking to us about who you are and

1:37

what you do.

1:38

>> Yes.

1:39

>> So, currently at the moment, I am a cranial sacral therapist, which is a

1:44

holistic therapy, which I got into because of the dancing. had a really bad

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back.

1:49

>> Uhhuh.

1:50

>> So that is a practice that looks at all systems of the body and it's a different

1:54

way of healing the body. I use light touch and I also use very particular

1:59

sounds to heal the body. So that's what I do.

2:02

>> And I also teach older adults. So an older adult dance practitioner Friday in

2:08

ship with my ladies. Uh you are like uh you have a such a reputation like lots

2:14

of the grandparents at school are always talking about.

2:17

>> Oh really?

2:18

>> And what what do they say Laura?

2:20

>> Legendary.

2:23

>> Living legend.

2:24

>> I'm bringing their sexy chakras back. That's what's happening.

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>> Oh my god. Amazing. That's what they need in Shipley.

2:29

>> Yes. What we need in Shipley.

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>> I do that. And then I have just I'm also still dancing.

2:35

>> Oh tell us.

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>> Yes. So, I just finished a 3-week project R&D with Zoe Castelleru.

2:41

>> Oh, god. Yeah.

2:42

>> Voices project.

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>> Because I saw an iteration of that at Yorkshire dance.

2:48

Yes,

2:48

>> last year or earlier this year in the autumn. Yeah.

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>> Yeah. Yeah. That was absolutely beautiful actually.

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>> Yeah. So, that's using the voice again which has been super joyful because it's

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very powerful. So,

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>> we've had lots of voice work and we

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>> sing the whole way through. So, there's no music. It's a a voice score

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>> as well as movement.

3:08

>> As well as movement.

3:09

>> Amazing. So

3:09

>> Beyonce does that seemingly.

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>> Yes.

3:12

>> She on the treadmill and sings.

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>> Yeah.

3:14

>> Is that what you do at home now?

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>> No, I just sing in the shower.

3:18

>> Oh wow.

3:19

>> We can't all be Beyonce.

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>> Not at all.

3:20

>> No. There's only room in this world for one Beyonce.

3:24

>> Yeah.

3:26

>> So um so you mentioned just then that you got into craniosacral therapy

3:32

following dancing. So, you've had a dance career.

3:34

>> Yes, indeed.

3:36

>> And can you tell us a little bit about what that looked like?

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>> Yeah.

3:39

>> How far back do you want to go?

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>> You could start at the beginning if you want.

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>> Yeah.

3:44

>> Yeah. Let's start right at the very beginning.

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>> Yeah. It's a very good place to start. Here we go. When I was nine, my mom and

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dad had split up and we were walking through the park. Me, my brother, and my

3:56

mom and two guys. We were outside this art center. Art center.

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>> Where? Where? in Dundee. Sorry, in Dundee. Bonnie Dundee where I'm from.

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>> And when was this, Tanya? Roughly.

4:07

4:09

>> Okay.

4:10

>> When I was minus 6.

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>> I was nine. And these two guys were sitting outside and they said, "Do the

4:20

kids want to come in and dance? We're doing like a little Easter dance party."

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And um my brother's like, "No." And straight away the voice in my head said,

4:26

"Yes." And I went in and it was a week of dance, a week of sharing, a week of

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um improvisation, all contemporary based.

4:36

>> Wow.

4:36

>> And what I didn't know was it was Dundere Dance Company. So it was

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Villmore James, it was Ethan De Lashley, Lizzie Perry, Mindo,

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>> run by Tamara McGlo. Yeah.

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>> All these big hitters that I was just instantly connected with.

4:50

>> Amazing.

4:50

>> And they said Tanya's really good. She should come and do this summer dance

4:53

project. So that was actually in the rep.

4:57

>> Wow.

4:58

>> It was a full scale community project. So it was all ages could come and we had

5:04

uh the full shebang. So you were doing class in the morning, you were

5:07

choreographing in the afternoon,

5:09

>> working with all ages, an intergenerational project. And then you

5:12

were performing on the actual rep. Um

5:15

>> amazing. And you were nine.

5:16

>> At 9 years old.

5:17

>> Wow. Right. So that's when the the discipline the structure was being

5:22

instilled in me because I knew I knew exactly then when I started in the Dup

5:27

Art Center that this is what I was going to do. There was no question in my mind.

5:30

I was like I'm going to be a dancer now.

5:33

>> That's it.

5:33

>> Uhhuh.

5:34

>> So I did a lot of community classes at the rep. I had community dance. I did

5:39

drama. I did loads of women singing.

5:41

>> And and before this encounter did you know what went on there in that

5:46

building?

5:47

>> Absolutely not. No, no idea at all.

5:49

>> No. And it was just a chance that we were passing through that park that day

5:52

>> and those two guys were sitting outside

5:54

>> and Mick Lindo and Vilmore James were outside.

5:57

>> Gosh.

5:57

>> Yeah.

5:58

>> And did was dance ever in your life before that or your family's life?

6:02

>> Yeah, we were constantly dancing in the house. There was constant music

6:06

happening. All different types of influences from mom and dad, the musical

6:10

choices. So

6:11

>> I was always dancing about seemingly my auntie Ruth was telling my dad my dad

6:16

was telling me that when I was young I was constantly on my tiptoes and she was

6:20

saying she's going to be a dancer. She's the fbomb as well in there cuz

6:25

they were all drunk on whiskey. But it was that kind of note that there

6:30

was something going on in me that I wanted to dance and perform and sing and

6:36

carry on.

6:36

>> Beautiful.

6:37

>> So yeah. Yeah. So at that point you hadn't encountered it at school

6:41

necessarily.

6:42

>> No.

6:44

>> Which was really interesting you say that because after the split where we

6:48

were um the area Dundee Clipin Primary School I can remember it being very

6:52

strict, very structured,

6:53

>> right?

6:54

>> And we moved to a different area and this is really funny cuz I have never

6:58

picked up on this. It was called Black Ness Primary. There's Black Ness Road,

7:01

Blackness Avenue and people say to me blackness and I'm like no blackness.

7:06

They're like, "Blackness? You went to Blackness Primary School?" I was like,

7:10

"Oh, yeah." Literally last week.

7:13

>> But the head teacher there, Mrs. Blackmore, was super creative. She was

7:17

very theatrical. This beautiful older woman. And she brought loaded traveling

7:22

dance companies in different projects. I remember

7:25

>> like there was a drama club. There's all this

7:28

>> amazing.

7:28

>> Yeah. Creativity from her. I even remember one of the songs we did. It was

7:33

like called the date the races about going to the races and betting and we

7:37

are the tick tock men. They say we're short and fat. That's from nine. That's

7:41

why do you remember these useless things in your mind?

7:44

>> It's not useless though.

7:45

>> It'll sneak in some place. I'll be using that. But that's the kind of environment

7:51

I was growing up in. So a different place. The west end of Dundee was the

7:55

universities. You have seen different cultures all different people. because

7:59

the other end of Dundee was very sort of white working class and there was

8:04

students and there was more life in the west end of Dundy. So a greater vibe.

8:07

>> So which which end were you from as such then?

8:11

>> So from it was called Strowell. East could be east and then we moved to the

8:17

west end of Dundee.

8:18

>> Yep. Universities and

8:21

>> just a lot more life. There's a road that runs all the way from Perth Perth

8:24

Road in the center and it's all like little cafes and bars. Very nice.

8:28

>> Yeah. Yes.

8:29

>> Beautiful.

8:30

>> So that was

8:31

>> my stomping ground for growing up and it was like

8:34

>> 15 minutes down the road to the rep.

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>> So Wow.

8:37

>> And once you discovered the rep,

8:40

>> that was it.

8:41

>> Yes. It was a beautiful, nurturing place.

8:44

>> Yeah.

8:45

>> Where everybody was included. Everybody was expected to turn up and do their

8:49

best. But it was a very gentle, nurturing, focused,

8:55

great creative hub. A beautiful place. Yes.

8:59

>> Yeah. And did you feel like at home there because also you

9:04

identified with the people there or like looking back now from where you're

9:08

sitting, can you imagine why it was so welcoming or how

9:14

>> that place opened its doors to you and you didn't feel like you didn't not

9:19

belong? Like can you describe the sensation of maybe ease that you felt

9:25

you you were welcome in that place or you belonged in that place?

9:30

>> I think it was the acceptance of whatever you did

9:33

>> right

9:34

>> was what you did. You were bringing

9:38

>> your creativity. Yeah. And you were seen.

9:42

>> Yeah.

9:42

>> You know there were people who were interested in what you were doing. I

9:47

suppose this touches a little bit on, you know, home life. What happens in

9:50

home as a child of a single parent mother.

9:54

>> So when you're given an opportunity to just showcase exactly how you're

9:59

feeling, what is happening, bringing your expression here was a place where

10:04

there was people who look like me. So Ethinda was a black woman, Mick and

10:08

Villmore were black.

10:10

>> Different ages, different input into your life when people are saying, "Oh,

10:15

that's really good. Why don't you try this and why don't we explore this and

10:17

you're like right okay

10:19

>> so it's very interesting there was a project up in chapel chapel FM about

10:24

home from home

10:26

>> and it was that was a feeling when you say that being at the rep was like being

10:30

at home like the smell of it I can still I went back when we were with Phoenix

10:35

and this changing room still smelt the same oh my god we're talking about

10:39

smells this morning I was like oh my gosh I remember remember this woman I

10:44

don't know if you want to hear this might want for a few years. There's one

10:46

called an and she was like we were in the changing rooms one time we were all

10:50

maybe like 13 14 we were like oh I don't want to show off my body she just pulled

10:54

back the shower curtain full muff at that time and went has anyone seen the

10:58

soap we like so she was like your crazy auntie and

11:03

was like the crazy I was like no I think it's there

11:08

I'm only 14 so it was that kind of feeling you were

11:12

with lots of different people who were giving influences

11:16

and supporting you in what you were doing.

11:18

>> And also the kids that we were with, great kids, some of my friends from

11:22

school,

11:23

>> but it just, you know, when there's a particular time when the universe just

11:27

goes, you can all come together.

11:29

>> Yeah.

11:29

>> It was like that

11:30

>> click.

11:31

>> It was just the perfect time of everybody being together.

11:34

>> Yeah. Tamara Mcllor is an incredible community worker of bringing people

11:40

together and giving very gentle subtle

11:45

cues and indications in choreography that people can just there's something

11:49

very humanistic feel. I don't know if

11:53

humanistic is the word. It's that connection you look at and you go that

11:58

resonates me. That's how Tommy's work was for me as a as a kid growing up. And

12:02

where had Tammy come from?

12:03

>> Yeah. Ooh, where did you come from? Where did she go? You're going to have

12:07

to use your files. I'm really sorry, Tommy. I don't know where you come from.

12:10

D Sam Price had Tamara trained in dance.

12:16

>> Oh, yeah.

12:17

>> Yeah. Yes. Beautiful dancer. Tommy's still dancing now.

12:20

>> Amazing.

12:20

>> Working with the performance ensemble.

12:22

>> And so these performers as well, you aspire to be like them.

12:25

>> Yes.

12:26

>> Yeah.

12:27

>> So like very clear role models.

12:30

>> Yeah.

12:31

>> Straight away.

12:32

>> Yeah. and feeling like you could contribute as well. They were interested

12:38

in you contributing. Yes. In whatever way that would be.

12:41

>> A lot of times Mick would be told, "Go and take all them kids down the stairs

12:44

and do a dance with them. You know, they're just getting too much." So, we

12:46

did like a vanilla ice dance and all kind of stuff.

12:49

>> So, you were given responsibility really early on.

12:51

>> Definite. One of the things I clearly remember was going into the theater and

12:55

being read the riot act. Like when you're in here, you're not speaking,

12:59

you're not singing, you're not talking. this is not a time to play

13:02

>> and everybody respected that. So that discipline was already getting instilled

13:06

in me which I needed. Rachel,

13:11

>> oh there's a wy side to me.

13:14

>> Did that translate to your home life?

13:17

>> I think it did. I think it helped in the home life. I think it was an outlet for

13:21

what wasn't getting expressed in the house.

13:23

>> Oh, interesting.

13:24

>> Yeah.

13:25

>> Say more.

13:26

>> Say more. So my mom things done her way. Not that she didn't want me to go and do

13:31

dance. There was always that. But there's very clear boundaries as to what

13:34

you should be doing or saying. And um

13:38

>> I think at times I was getting a bit too much

13:42

>> energetically.

13:43

>> Energetically and all wise like growing a bit too much.

13:46

>> Okay.

13:47

>> So with dance that was a little channel where I could go and start to grow

13:53

without her having any interference from her.

13:55

>> Interesting.

13:56

>> Yeah. Yeah. And that's what saved my life. dance has saved my life and

14:00

craniosacral therapy of course

14:02

>> obviously we'll get

14:03

>> that's that's too but the first thing that saved my life is very clear I mean

14:08

I think I've said this to you before Laura

14:10

>> but do you think it's about your wildiness or or is it about like the

14:13

stats being against you in terms of

14:16

>> where and how you grew up

14:18

>> exactly coming from this background of having a divorce and being taken away

14:23

from my dad and all this kind of stuff that is going to start shaking the

14:27

foundations of anybody body's

14:29

>> life.

14:29

>> And just by the grace of God,

14:32

>> these two men came like my angels came and went, "Come and do this."

14:36

>> Wow.

14:37

>> Oh, my babies. My boos.

14:39

>> J bless them.

14:41

>> Cuz yeah, I would not be sitting here talking to you today in this state.

14:45

>> Well, you don't know. You might have been doing something equally as

14:49

creative.

14:50

>> Rachel, I like your I like your optimism.

14:53

I literally just two kids I used to teach back in the day.

14:58

>> One yesterday, this car, this cop car drove up like this and was like, "Go in

15:02

front of me." I went, "No, no, you go. You go." And I looked and I was like,

15:05

"No way." Gosh, I can't remember her name because

15:10

I'm getting old. But she was like, "Hi, Tanya." I was like, "You're a police

15:13

woman. What's going on?"

15:15

>> Sing.

15:16

>> Yeah. So, and they all this age.

15:18

>> I know. But they all say like, "I remember your classes. Remember we did

15:21

this dance? It was absolutely incredible. Blah blah blah.

15:24

>> So,

15:26

>> I think what I bring with that is something

15:29

>> I'm not a structured A tob dancer even though I like the structure of dance.

15:35

>> Well, it gave you a very particular structure, didn't it? I suppose in in

15:39

your own life and did when you first started dancing just

15:44

>> because you know our podcast is exploring issues and sort of political

15:50

and socioeconomic

15:53

>> structures at the time when people are accessing things was your um the work

15:59

that you did at Dundee rep was that free

16:03

>> I can't remember if it was free it was if it if there was a fee it was very

16:07

small very minimal. Very minimal.

16:10

>> Because this is important to find out because more and more these things are

16:15

going to be closed to people who don't have the economic means

16:19

>> to be able to access this kind of provision.

16:22

>> Exa Exactly. Even I was going to do like a five rhythms class and that's you know

16:27

you're looking at maybe 12 to do that.

16:30

>> Yeah. Yeah. in some places. I mean, there's a sliding scale, but it is those

16:33

things. But I do not remember there being any kind of issue around me going

16:37

to dance, not being able to afford it. And I can definitely guarantee said,

16:42

>> you know, actually, we can't afford this just now. They be like, that's fine.

16:44

>> I can't remember. I'm sure the the summer dance projects would be they

16:48

would have been funded.

16:49

>> Yeah.

16:49

>> Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful.

16:52

>> And how did that sort of sit alongside your educational experiences? I mean,

16:56

what was it like at school?

16:57

>> I am a geek. I am an absolute geek. I love studying. I have seven A GCSEs

17:06

equivalent.

17:07

>> I have five A levels, two A's, two B's and a C. And then they did six year

17:11

studies. So I did biology, French and

17:15

>> secretarial studies, something along those lines. So studying

17:19

>> no problem.

17:20

>> Absolutely no problem.

17:21

>> I get suppose it's hyperfocused and something I really enjoy. I'm like

17:26

especially French. French and biology were my top.

17:29

>> Yeah.

17:29

>> And what were your social experiences like as

17:33

>> socially? I had a really beautiful friendship group.

17:38

Very nice.

17:39

>> Did they dance with you?

17:41

>> No, they didn't actually.

17:42

>> Yeah. So, you were the only dancer in that friendship group?

17:46

>> Yep. Ellen was an artist. Jennifer sang. She was a musician.

17:52

Aen is now into flowers. She's a florist and beautiful work she does. At the

17:56

time, Ailen was very studious as well

17:58

>> and she was Ailen Robbie, shout out to you. She was like another angel. She was

18:04

like the end to my young. She was very, very tall, very calm, always on time,

18:12

tried to keep you on the straight and narrow. Yes. Even at school, like

18:15

thinking back, yeah, it's wy

18:17

>> skill.

18:19

>> Sneaking off at lunchtime to the boys's houses and all. So

18:23

>> terrible.

18:24

>> Terrible. world and creative by the sounds and creative friends actually as

18:29

well. Yeah.

18:31

>> So what happened next? You left school with five A levels and then did you

18:35

think okay I'm going to train to be a dancer?

18:38

>> Well sure the thing somebody just given me a little thing about the shame of the

18:44

arts how we're built nowadays to focus on the mind. The guy's like why aren't

18:49

we dancing every single day because we've all got bodies.

18:52

>> Yeah.

18:53

>> So we're thinking about training the mind. How can we train this instead of

18:56

the whole physicality in the body

19:00

>> and moving and expressing yourself and doing your brain at the same time?

19:03

>> Well, for me, my PhD was all about this. The whole lot is brain. The whole lot is

19:09

mind,

19:10

>> holistic.

19:11

>> Yes.

19:12

>> The gut brain,

19:13

>> everything is connected.

19:15

>> Yes, indeed.

19:16

>> So, um it was really interesting. So, she sent me that and I said, "Gosh, that

19:20

reminds me." I'd done biology all the way through. Yeah. And so I'm sitting,

19:24

it was like the last day and the teacher's going around asking, last day

19:27

school, everybody's asking what what you going to do. Oh, I'm off Dundy

19:31

University, study chemistry. Well done. What? Blah blah blah. And what you going

19:33

to do, Tanya? And I was like, uh, I'm going to Dundy College to do a national

19:37

certificate in dance. And he burst out laughing like in a like, you're going to

19:42

do a dance, are you? Come on then. Get up and give us a dance. Let's see what

19:46

you can do. Yeah.

19:50

>> Africanness is going to come out in me. you don't know what you're saying to me.

19:56

And I just thought, oh, that's a very terrible thing to say to

20:01

somebody. And but what it made me do is go, I am going to be the best dancer

20:04

you've ever seen in your goddamn life.

20:08

>> More determined.

20:09

>> Yeah. And did you find were there similar opinions or challenges like with

20:13

other other people in your life?

20:14

>> Interestingly, no.

20:16

>> Not one other person, he was the only person that gave me any kind of negative

20:21

feedback. Gosh,

20:22

>> cuz everybody else knew like of course you're going to be a dancer.

20:25

>> What else are you going to do? I did I went to Dundy University Hudline the

20:30

biology department. I thought maybe I can do that mean physiology cuz that

20:33

>> the the how the body works fascinates me like how your kidneys work how all our

20:38

organs are just working now as we're sitting here. Your brain.

20:41

>> I remember walking through Dundy outside house of Fraser one time and my mind

20:44

went I was like everybody is walking towards me. They've all got brains in

20:48

their heads. It was like that. I was like, "Wonder if I could see through

20:51

their skull and see their brains and their head." It's just like,

20:56

>> "I'm surprised you didn't go to med school."

20:59

>> Cutting up cadaavvers.

21:01

>> Yeah.

21:03

>> What's happening in there?

21:05

>> So, I went to Dundy and checked out the biology course. They're like, "You have

21:08

to do chemistry." Went to do GCSE in chemistry. I was like, "What is going on

21:12

here? This means nothing." And that was it. That was the click. Didn't click. I

21:16

was like, "I have no idea what what's happening." And so, I was like, "Yep,

21:19

that's it. I'm definitely going to be a dancer.

21:20

>> Yeah. Yeah.

21:21

>> Yeah.

21:22

>> So, yeah, that was that was it. So, I went to Dundy College and did an NC with

21:26

Pete Royston? Do you not know him?

21:31

>> Before the space before the space

21:34

>> and that was just an insight that was just cementing

21:40

the thought that this is this is what I want to do.

21:42

>> Yeah. Yeah. daily training,

21:44

>> doing ballet for the first time, which was like, I don't like this, but I'm

21:49

going to have to do it. It was the kind of thing of, you know, I'm not really

21:52

keen on this, but I know I'm going to have to do it. Mick Lindo said to me

21:56

years ago,

21:57

>> doll, it's going to be girls that have done Barry since we were young and, you

22:00

know, you're kind of far behind and blah blah blah. So again, I was like, right,

22:03

>> yes,

22:03

>> I'm going to be doing this.

22:05

>> Yeah.

22:05

>> Because there was no there was no other option.

22:08

>> I had to go and do dance.

22:09

>> Yeah. And what kind of work did you watch work and stuff and talk about

22:14

professional work?

22:15

>> Interestingly enough, no. Even when you're telling me all these people like

22:18

do you know this person this person? No. It was more like the vibe in the

22:22

college. Pete took us to see a lot of dance.

22:24

>> Uhhuh.

22:25

>> Yeah.

22:25

>> But I remember seeing Romar I think was on Netherlands.

22:29

Lots of uh Oh, Yasmin Vardan. Oh, who was the guy? Russell Malifant.

22:34

>> Yeah. Ah, I remember seeing his work at the rep and being like,

22:39

"Oh my gosh, this is incredible."

22:41

>> Okay, Russell Malifhat. Malifhat.

22:45

>> Maro Fat, please.

22:46

>> Maro Fat, please.

22:49

>> That's how working class we are. Russell Malifant, tell us.

22:52

>> So, Russell Malifant.

22:53

>> Yes.

22:54

>> And lots of And we had to do like essays and write about it. But there was one

22:58

particular one I remember thinking, nah, nah. I'm very particular when it comes

23:03

to dance. What was the one that blew my mind? It was Netherlands.

23:07

Okay.

23:08

>> When I saw that, I thought, "Oh my god, this is just rapture."

23:14

>> Wow.

23:14

>> Phenomenal.

23:15

>> Yeah. Yeah. I bet it was.

23:17

>> So around this time, this is like further education. Are you around 18 at

23:22

this time? Yeah,

23:23

>> I was 18. And then

23:26

>> moved to Leeds. So I auditioned for Leeds cuz that was the only place cuz

23:29

Mick Lindo went to Leeds.

23:30

>> Northern School of Contemporary Dance. Yeah.

23:34

>> And just before we chat about that,

23:38

>> do you think you were aware of your class identity at this point?

23:44

>> Not at all.

23:46

>> In terms of Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I'm telling a huge lie. I'm thinking about

23:50

in terms of being in the in the class with other dancers,

23:57

but I knew from nine that I was super poor.

24:00

>> Right.

24:00

>> How did you know? Yeah.

24:02

>> How did I know? Because my dad had the car and we had to carry shopping from

24:05

Tesco with my mom.

24:09

>> My mom basically said to us one day, "I'm leaving your dad. You can come with

24:12

me or you can stay with him, but I won't be back to this house."

24:15

>> Wow.

24:15

>> Yeah. I was nine, my brother was seven.

24:18

>> Gosh.

24:18

>> Yeah.

24:19

>> Okay.

24:20

>> So, I actually said I want to stay with my dad and she was like, "No, you're

24:24

coming with me."

24:25

>> Oh, gosh.

24:26

>> Yeah. Cuz he had the car. Rachel,

24:30

>> is that why you wanted to stay with your dad?

24:33

>> No, cuz he's an African loving dude.

24:36

>> The great man. So,

24:38

>> so not aware of like similarly for me actually. I don't think I was sort of

24:42

super uh politically aware at the age of 18, but I knew

24:47

>> did I know I was working class? I can't remember. But I knew we were poor.

24:51

>> Yeah.

24:51

>> So, that's a very

24:53

>> Yeah. you know, real thing that you're sort of dealing with and how you're

24:57

trying to navigate your own sense of worth then and that and how that can

25:03

impact on your confidence. But there's this tussle between the confidence that

25:08

you're gaining physically which is going into your sort of like mental confidence

25:14

as well. But there's, excuse the pun, but there's a real dance between those

25:19

having the confidence to uh walk into that building like

25:24

>> Yeah.

25:24

>> because uh you're allowed or not. I there's there's both I think you know

25:30

and and how that fear of

25:33

>> uh let's say for shortcuts um

25:37

>> it's like posher spaces can be terrifying to people

25:42

>> who come from a much poorer socioeconomic background. So, we're sort

25:47

of like really interested in that tussle of how um we're navigating that and how

25:53

dance can both

25:55

>> support that and also ruffle it a bit as well

25:59

>> because that's so interesting you said that. I've never really thought about

26:02

going into particular places

26:05

>> because like back in the day obviously it's secondhand clothes and all this.

26:08

So, that is the kind of places that you're

26:11

>> you're associating with. I remember being had so much shame and

26:14

embarrassment. I remember going in the secondhand shop.

26:16

>> Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean it's trendy now. But

26:19

>> no 15 16 I was like oh actually when I was

26:24

young and not to have like new blazers like all my friends and stuff like that

26:27

like a secondhand blazer. I was thinking about that the other day.

26:30

>> But that's really interesting to say and then going into these places that are

26:34

exceedingly affluent.

26:36

>> That's what dance did for me.

26:38

>> Yeah. It it took me from this idea of, "Oh, I can't go in there to actually,

26:42

oh, we're going into Saddler's Wales." Yeah. And you're going to be flying to

26:45

New York and you're going to be doing all I was like, "Oh, yes." Yeah.

26:49

>> And do you think that there was something about that being

26:53

>> as a result of your body in terms of training and

26:58

feeling different in your body

27:01

>> as in a confidence in the body to step into those places? It's really that's

27:04

such a good that's such a good question because there is this

27:09

it's like um a dance muscly confidence suit.

27:15

>> That's a really nice way to describe it.

27:17

>> I'm allowed to be in here because I'm the dancer. Not in a wanky way, but like

27:21

>> the the little Tanyion side that was probably like God, I can never afford to

27:25

come in here. Well, actually,

27:28

>> I'm I'm allowed to be in here. Oh, no. I'm going backstage because this is, you

27:31

know, I'm a dance. I'm a dancer. That's your job answer. That's my job.

27:35

>> But there's still this feeling of when did that actually when did the two marry

27:40

in my body?

27:42

>> That's very interesting.

27:44

>> And maybe it married at Northern School or after you graduated or was it

27:48

>> a long time when you were a little imposter syndrome.

27:53

>> So we're heading into that territory about

27:56

>> sort of chatting about that in a way.

27:58

>> Yeah.

27:58

>> And try to unpack it a little bit.

28:00

>> Is it different now, Tanya? It's something I think it's a continual

28:09

thing I'm working on.

28:11

>> Sometimes you sit back, you're like, is that what I'm doing? So, yes, that's the

28:17

work I've been doing.

28:19

>> I'm an imp am I an imposter in this? Well, yeah, sometimes there's still a

28:25

little bit imposter syndrome kicks off.

28:27

>> And is it is that to do with spaces or what is it that wobbles you?

28:30

>> Yeah. What is it the more balls mean?

28:33

>> It says leather.

28:34

>> It's like therapy. We've gone deep.

28:38

>> Somebody get me a mocha chocolate latte.

28:42

>> What is it that wobbles me? I think I suppose it can be sometimes actually

28:46

just owning it.

28:47

>> Yeah.

28:48

>> Yeah. Really stepping in the power. I'm going to do a lot of work around this

28:52

actually in September. I'm doing it now, but actually just owning exactly who I

28:57

am, what I am. So it's deal it's still dealing with a lot of these small Tanya

29:01

children in me that got this oh you shouldn't be doing that you need to sit

29:06

down no this isn't good enough

29:08

>> let's continue everybody has stress isn't it

29:11

>> yeah or I would say women have it

29:16

>> I don't have the exact stats but I imagine women have it more than

29:19

>> more than men

29:20

>> it's interesting though because obviously I'm in that line of work so

29:23

I'm seeing male clients who have this

29:26

>> ah interesting Yes.

29:27

>> Oh, so that's a good counter narrative. Actually,

29:30

>> there is um and there's a good woman. It's called the ch

29:34

the crappy childhood fairy

29:37

>> and she talks about what happens when you do not have a good childhood. So, a

29:42

lot of childhood trauma like I'm saying that's your foundation and you're

29:45

building upon that. So, men and women are affected by

29:49

>> Yeah, you're right.

29:50

>> terrible childhoods.

29:51

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

29:52

>> Or traumas later on in life, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

29:55

Let so let's jump back to northern school.

29:58

>> Yeah. And I was thinking in terms of that in relation to so you said when you

30:01

were at Dundee rep

30:03

>> you were like this there's no question this is what I'm going to do and then

30:06

you decided to do dance at college and it's like yeah of course I'm not doing

30:10

biology I'm doing that.

30:12

>> Yeah.

30:12

>> When you went to Northern School did you have a sense that like what your career

30:16

was going to be?

30:17

>> No.

30:20

>> I don't really have a plan very much in life. I don't plan

30:24

>> it just there's a feeling inside me that says this is what you must do.

30:28

>> Yeah.

30:29

>> Even when it comes to like you need to go into that shop

30:32

>> or you need to phone this person

30:35

>> or this is you need to go and do this. It's like this is how I think now as a

30:39

cranial sacral therapist which expands to intuitive sounding, intuitive

30:44

healing, something just tells me and like we're saying the gut and the brain

30:50

>> from not listening to my head. That little there's a little thing inside

30:53

that goes do that.

30:55

>> So I got to Northern I didn't have a plan. I didn't know what company I

30:59

wanted to work with. I didn't know who I was interested in. I didn't know who

31:03

Adidora Duncan was. I just knew that I was there. It was freedom. It was

31:07

expression. It was like being on the cast of fame. There was vibrancy. It was

31:13

like, I'm never going back to Dundee again. I'm sorry, Dundee. I love you,

31:18

but I was like, this is Mecca.

31:21

>> Yeah.

31:21

>> It was phenomenal.

31:23

>> Yeah. Yeah.

31:23

31:29

>> Interesting.

31:30

>> Phenomenal. Who are your um fellow classmates who

31:35

went on to have

31:36

>> Well, I dropped some big names.

31:37

>> Yeah, dropped some names.

31:38

>> Paloma Faith.

31:39

>> Oh, fabulous. You're in Paloma Faith's year.

31:42

>> Me and Pal used to work. She got me my job at Normans. She like Tanya now says

31:46

there's a job going and I must get there. So, we used to me and Palomi used

31:50

to party

31:52

>> a lot and Matthew Wilin who's in Emerdale.

31:56

>> Okay.

31:57

>> Wow. So people have gone who have gone on to do

31:59

>> well Kevin

32:03

Edwards for company chameleon incredible incredible dancer amazing dude

32:09

>> who else have we got junior cunningham who's just been on gladiators

32:12

>> and he's going to be on the podcast

32:15

>> who's at motion house Lisa well

32:17

>> great yeah

32:18

>> so really cool

32:20

>> our year was pretty phenomenal

32:22

>> and at northern at the time I mean cashing up mine back do you think most

32:26

of the students students were coming from sort of gritty workingclass

32:30

backgrounds or was it a real mix or was it gritty because

32:35

it was in the north or

32:37

>> I think there was a lot of grit.

32:39

>> Yeah,

32:39

>> I think it was mostly working class. I'm trying to think there was a lot of

32:43

>> foreign students. We had a lot of Scandinavians, right? Yeah. Um,

32:48

>> and how was that as an experience to be really because I mean I might be making

32:52

an assumption here but thinking of back to Dundee rep

32:55

>> was probably lots of people from Dundee, right? Yeah. And not so international.

32:59

>> Yeah.

33:00

>> I remember being on the bus to my brother

33:04

actually was on the bus. We had a mobile can't remember but I just remember

33:07

calling Ben and being like I've been on the bus and there was 12 other black

33:10

people on the bus. I could not believe it. The first person

33:17

I saw when I got the train station moved to leads was pork pie from Desmond's on

33:21

a phone outside the books.

33:24

>> I was like, "What is this place?"

33:26

>> Wow.

33:27

>> I just remember this feeling of And there's something that's very soothing

33:30

to your nervous system when you're around people who the same apparently

33:35

>> your nervous system goes, "Ah, I'm home."

33:37

>> Yeah.

33:37

>> So, it was that kind of feeling. So, in Dundee, I remember walking in town with

33:42

my pal one time. She's like, "Tanya, everybody's staring at you.

33:47

because

33:47

>> you're gorgeous.

33:48

>> Thank you very much, Rachel.

33:49

>> Absolutely.

33:50

>> Yeah.

33:50

>> Was a bit younger than two.

33:53

>> But it's that kind of thing. Who's from a child's point of view, everybody

33:58

staring at you? So why? What's wrong with me? As an adult, in an adult mind,

34:01

you can think it's cuz she's different and she's a pretty weot.

34:05

>> But that constant, why is everybody staring at me all the time? And I says

34:09

to Nikki, yeah, I know.

34:10

>> But when I got to leads, everybody looked like me.

34:12

>> No one stared at you. Yeah.

34:14

>> Why is nobody staring at me anymore?

34:18

>> Wait till they got some moves, then they will be.

34:20

>> Yeah. I was like, "Okay, this is settling." And then all the influences

34:25

that come with different cultures, especially like R&B, hip-hop, garage,

34:31

reggae. But I was into the reggae, but all these cuz I was in my folk music and

34:35

had my land folk records on my record player and they' be like, "What's this

34:39

Tanya? It's a land folk." It's about like the thong song and

34:44

twerking. Well, not twerking at that time, but you know, a lot of ass

34:48

shaking. Whereas before, it was really interesting. I always used to, somebody

34:51

told me this, used to wrap like um a shirt around to hide my bum. You

34:55

>> know what I mean? And these women are going about with these hot pants on and

35:00

getting fillers.

35:02

>> Exactly. Now, but at that time, it was like, oh well, this is something that's

35:06

different. I'm going to hide this so I can be the same as everybody else.

35:09

>> Probably that's why I listen to folk music and whatnot. trying to

35:14

fit in.

35:15

>> Yeah. But also growing up with that so weirdly a part of you as well

35:20

>> that folk music.

35:22

>> Yeah. I do love folk music.

35:24

>> Well, I think that's it's the Scottish back then.

35:26

>> Yeah. Absolutely. Because you are Scottish. Yeah. Scottish. Yeah. And it's

35:30

those questions that I've heard like do do I like folk music because I like folk

35:34

music or do I like folk music because that was what was happening and like

35:37

that was an easy way in. Like we would go to the pub every week. Mhm.

35:41

>> It's very young

35:43

>> and sing. So if I can sing like a folk song then Oh.

35:48

>> Did you do any Scottish dance?

35:50

>> No. No. No. No. Whimsical Scadadlin. Have you seen that man on Instagram?

35:55

>> What did you just say then?

35:56

>> Whimsical Scuadlers. You got to take check him out. Is it Mr. Jam or

36:00

something? It's his thing. He's Jamaican. It's just his little face that

36:04

comes up and it is he talks over Irish like folk dancing. Oh, brilliant.

36:11

>> So, the last one he's done is like, look at this. This is the river dance.

36:15

>> Look at all these whimsical scadlas.

36:18

>> I love it. I love it.

36:20

>> He's absolutely brilliant.

36:23

>> That's amazing.

36:25

>> So, the whimsical scad my knees would take.

36:28

>> Oh, wow.

36:30

>> So, northern school, your second home then afterdeed rep.

36:35

>> And what what were the highlights of that time?

36:37

>> Yeah. Oh,

36:43

I suppose I just had three years of an amazing time. The highlight would be

36:48

very difficult to say.

36:50

>> Don't What choreographers did you work with?

36:55

>> There I'll tell you the most important

36:58

choreographer I worked with. You know when you have to put your name up on the

37:00

board?

37:01

>> Yes.

37:01

>> You can work with it was Janet Archer or Daran Singh Buller. And like I said, I'

37:06

never heard of any of these choreographers.

37:09

And I'd heard gunmet chat about Darian singular.

37:12

I said I'll just put my name down for him now. Daran, sorry. But we Darian's

37:19

piece was source. It was about the last commodity on earth being water and what

37:22

would happen. It was heavy and the score was like

37:26

everything that my mother thinks about contemporary dance

37:30

was happening in that piece.

37:32

>> Squeaky door music.

37:33

>> Squeaky door music. Like can you know day rock and roller a musical? some of

37:36

them understand that's what was happening. So Janice

37:41

Garrett's piece, they were all in Scottish outfits and jumping about and I

37:45

remember thinking this is the last piece I'm going to do ever at college. Wow.

37:49

>> And I should have chosen this highland flinging Scottish

37:54

>> piece to go on a high for your mom. some

37:58

scuaddling whimsical scadlin to graduate on a high

38:02

>> but Daran's piece and jar far that's why I got a job with Phoenix because

38:11

amazing literally

38:13

>> you walked out of school and walked into Phoenix

38:16

>> yes

38:16

>> tell us

38:18

>> I did

38:20

>> what an amazing opportunity

38:23

>> this is what I'm saying it's all it was meant and what a testament to the city

38:27

of leads.

38:28

>> Absolutely

38:28

>> unbelievable.

38:29

>> That's for sure.

38:30

>> To offer you that.

38:32

>> Yeah. You know,

38:33

>> I was up yesterday at Path. Shout out to Path up in Chapel Aller and they

38:37

supported me. So, they helped me through my apprenticeship. They funded it.

38:41

>> Oh, they financially supported scheme.

38:45

>> Path. I can't remember.

38:46

>> We'll find out for the at the time it was getting

38:51

>> Oh, sorry. I thought you getting ethnic minorities into work. I'm sure it was

38:54

something. still going. I went and dropped some

38:57

flyers off yesterday.

38:59

>> Oh no.

38:59

>> Uh and um so I was to I was like Darson basically said you like the six stancer.

39:05

We couldn't afford a six dancer so this is the way to get you in. So I was like

39:08

on £800 a month. I was living the high life

39:15

>> and touring and performing with the company.

39:19

>> Wow.

39:19

>> And that was like David Hughes was in, Martin Hilton was in, Tilla was in. I'm

39:25

like, what has happened?

39:27

>> Gosh.

39:27

>> But interestingly enough, talking about the alcohol business, I did not get

39:34

>> if I couldn't get I didn't get the audition or something happened. So, I

39:38

went back to Dundee and let loose.

39:40

>> Oh, god. And then I got a little Oh, Tanya, actually, can you come like

39:45

tomorrow for an audition or something? I remember going back to Leeds

39:48

>> with a big hangover.

39:50

>> Crying my eyes out. My friend Kat was hysterical. I was like, I've messed up

39:54

so bad. And went there like, you know, when

39:58

you're shaking, my eyes were all puffy like Frank Bruno

40:02

had been up all night battering my face.

40:07

>> And you still got it.

40:09

>> And I got it. I even said to him,

40:12

>> what

40:12

>> they said to me, have you seen any of the dancing, you know, when you go down

40:15

in the library in Northern School pieces by Dartens and Buller? I was like,

40:20

"Yeah, I've seen Aftershock, the shots that you do in the bar." And

40:24

Sally's like, "You mean shock absorber?" So was like, "Oh man."

40:43

I was like, "Oh god, I'm never going to get this job.

40:49

But you did. But but also I think like I know that's a very specific alcohol,

40:57

but I feel like those moments are so funny. I remember going to the National

41:02

Resource Center for Dance, which is like the UK's National Dance Archive, which

41:06

was at the University of Surrey when I was studying there. And they had a

41:10

really amazing archist there called Chris Jones.

41:14

And um I remember go like plucking up the courage because because also I

41:18

didn't feel that comfortable like in the university library because it was just

41:22

like this enormous vast expanse of books that were just

41:26

>> all of these subjects and it was like it was I found it really intimidating and

41:30

I'd gone to the library a lot as a child but like the local library where I lived

41:33

was like um

41:35

>> like a shipping container. Do you know do you know what I mean? Like and so it

41:38

was it was kind of really

41:40

>> um

41:41

>> super grand. It was super grand and yeah, really difficult. And I remember

41:44

going to but we had to do a research project. And I remember going and

41:47

knocking on the door and saying, "Oh, I've come because we're doing a research

41:51

project on Tamara Caravina." And she said, "Tamara Caravan." And I was like,

41:56

"Yeah." Cuz I was like, "Tamara Caravina," cuz I was from East

42:00

Manchester, you know, and it was just this real moment of like tomorrow

42:04

Caravina like Yeah, this is the way to say it. But just the and that feeling of

42:09

real like I should have known that. I'm so bad at this. Like, yeah,

42:14

>> it's I think it's kind of at least that's changed now, don't you think?

42:19

>> Yeah.

42:19

>> I mean, she was very helpful and kind. Yes,

42:22

>> I'm sure.

42:24

>> But I But what's interesting, I think we're far more like a little bit more

42:30

generous in how language gets corrected these days, which I think's kind of a

42:36

good thing. Don't you reckon?

42:38

>> Yeah.

42:38

>> Yeah. Yeah.

42:39

>> And that like snooty authority is actually not cool anymore, is it?

42:45

>> Yeah. Yeah.

42:46

>> So, shock absorber.

42:48

>> Yes.

42:50

>> Daran got you into Phoenix.

42:52

>> Dashan got me into Phoenix and that was just phenomenal.

42:57

>> Was it your dream come true? Do you think your dream dance job?

43:03

It's really interesting because it's like this is the next step.

43:09

>> I don't because I didn't have uh any kind of clue what I was going to be

43:13

doing. It was like this is what you're going to be doing. So I was like okay

43:16

now I'm here.

43:17

>> Yeah. Say yes.

43:18

>> Very interesting. I never think to myself.

43:22

>> Well maybe specific things but it was never like I want to dance for that

43:25

company. I want to dance for that company at that time.

43:30

Apart from DV8, I did want to dance for that company.

43:33

>> Oh,

43:34

>> cuz I'd seen

43:36

>> what piece

43:40

>> Rachel. It's the one where the woman flings her cell on the floor while the

43:43

pebbles.

43:44

>> Oh. Um,

43:47

>> Strange Fish.

43:48

>> Strange Fish.

43:49

>> Where's the That's Wendy Houston.

43:51

>> Houston.

43:51

>> Wendy Houston. I remember seeing that as a child. It was like South Bank show or

43:56

something like that.

43:56

>> Yeah. Oh, on the on the telly.

43:58

>> My mom used to record some stuff for me.

44:02

>> And I remember one time.

44:03

>> Yeah.

44:04

>> Clearly our video in the TV was on top of her wardrobe and she was like,

44:09

"Tanya, come in here. Look at this. Is this the kind of stuff you want to be

44:12

doing?" And it was God.

44:13

>> Javutos.

44:15

>> Yeah.

44:16

>> Naked with a pair of brogues on.

44:17

>> Yeah.

44:18

>> I think there's some blood coming from his nether regions. She's like, "Is this

44:21

what you want to be doing? Is this the contemporary dance?" I was like,

44:24

>> "Yeah."

44:25

>> Yeah.

44:25

>> And then ended up working with him.

44:27

>> He was director at Phoenix.

44:29

>> Yeah.

44:30

>> How long have we got?

44:32

>> So you were at Phoenix when Daran in the the latter half of his directorship

44:40

full time with Daran. Yeah. When it was the rebrand to theater,

44:43

>> he was bringing it back from being dark

44:45

>> cuz I dance with Javier Deuts for Alita Collins company.

44:50

>> And how did you find that Rachel? Actually, I got on fire with him

44:55

>> and I saw his early choreographic work. I I actually saw his first solo that he

45:00

did at Chisel dance piece cuz he um was performing in this Alita

45:06

Collins piece time and I was

45:09

>> young dancer

45:11

>> dancing much so yeah he actually came and

45:15

choreographed on Phoenix

45:16

>> very uh like in like for me really interesting because he was flamboyant

45:21

and he was from a different part of the world and he performed Start Naked and

45:25

it was and he was just out there And so it but I can imagine it's very different

45:30

to uh yeah I I never experienced Javier as

45:35

a director of a company but anyway over you was los pead

45:42

>> load and super successful his choreographic work for Phoenix

45:47

I love dancing I remember it had the huge big curtains on these rings really

45:51

incredibly beautiful we all had the rest that was one that more of the lyrical

46:00

>> that was Napolitos sorry was the curtains was the wrestling and

46:05

load is when we were all beh

46:09

>> and what's the other one cowg girls

46:11

>> I'd gone by that time

46:12

>> right

46:14

>> we loved I loved doing Napolitos we would it was just brilliant so it was

46:19

>> amazing creative vibe and very different from very different and that was the

46:24

beauty of Daran Daran knew knew how to curate a company even when it came down

46:30

to like the brochures and the you know the all the marketing and the posters

46:34

and everything. It was like and he knew who to get in and the beauty of Darian.

46:39

I'll tell you the difference between Daran and J have Daran said to us in the

46:44

very like day two I don't care if you guys don't get on you're here to dance

46:49

basically and we were like that's such a fame moment

46:52

>> okay and J have you when he came he said you

46:56

guys get on far too well

46:58

>> gosh

46:59

>> wow

47:00

>> and what it did with with Daran was it formed for me anyway a company that's

47:05

again alignment like the Beatles everybody came at the right time.

47:10

>> Yeah.

47:11

>> And formed a family.

47:14

>> Not only to my knowledge in 5 years there was only I only had one argument.

47:20

>> Gosh.

47:21

>> So you were super close on tour.

47:24

>> Yeah.

47:24

>> When I remember phoning up Kylie, Kylie and Dean Williams, Hunting Kimble Wong

47:28

out in Australia.

47:30

>> Phoning phoning her before we went on a six week tour like Kylie listens.

47:35

Why don't we just do like see week by week how we're getting on and if we need

47:38

to swap we're like Lisa and Louisa we can like be quite fluent. She was like

47:42

yeah no problem T no problem. Yeah. Six weeks me and her

47:47

and we partied. This is what I'm talk it was just the best time ever. We did six

47:51

weeks New York to LA stopping off in all these different places.

47:55

>> Wow.

47:56

>> Wow.

47:56

>> This is Daran K. This was his final

48:00

>> swan song.

48:00

>> Swan song to us.

48:02

>> Amazing

48:02

>> on tour.

48:03

>> Amazing. And we danced phenomenal. We were like beasts, you know, when you

48:08

look back

48:09

>> and and you think, "How the hell did we do it?" Yeah.

48:12

>> How did we do this?

48:13

>> Yeah.

48:13

>> But we were so in tune with each other. I'll tell you a story. We went to it was

48:16

like Cincinnati. Yan hated Cincinnati.

48:20

>> And the music for the second half of Planted Seeds kept cutting out.

48:24

We were coming out and it was all this business and it kept cutting out. So we

48:30

would try, I think we tried maybe a couple of times to restart it. And we

48:33

were in the midsection of this huge section dancing that cut out and we just

48:36

all kept going and the music came back on and it was

48:40

exactly the right place. It was one of that is like you know when you've got

48:44

moments in your mind you're like

48:46

>> cuz we were just in tune with each other.

48:47

>> Yeah. And

48:48

>> beautiful time. Well rehearsed.

48:51

>> So well actually

48:55

>> So during this time at Phoenix you must have worked with a lot of different

48:58

choreographers.

48:58

>> Yes. You're going to ask me now. Can you remember their names, Tanya?

49:04

>> Here's my slight pair of menopause. The life of the baby.

49:09

>> Yeah.

49:10

>> Yas. Oh gosh. Oh, her that did tea blew through.

49:15

>> Oh wow.

49:17

>> We had Robert Cohan.

49:19

>> Gosh.

49:20

>> We had Bill Juke and Raquel Mes.

49:27

>> Sorry, Ben. Who else did we do? Gosh, that's terrible. Daran created a couple

49:32

of pieces.

49:33

>> Henry Gri

49:35

>> Henry.

49:35

>> Oh god. Did you have Henry as well?

49:37

>> Yeah. Henry did his signal piece.

49:40

>> Ah, right.

49:41

>> Phenomenal. Huge like the Tao druming, Japanese

49:45

druming with the pots of fire.

49:46

>> Yeah. Yeah. I was his rehearsal director for a as well

49:51

>> with

49:51

>> in London with his company. Yeah.

49:53

>> Who else did you work with?

49:55

>> So what? So what were some of the highlights then? Or maybe actually

50:00

Bellman's piece sele

50:03

>> we had this we'll all say the same thing with this we'd done I think we were

50:08

rehearsing for maybe a tour dar was leaving so there was all these different

50:13

people coming in and we had to be like the guinea pigs to do all this stuff so

50:16

constantly working and then

50:18

>> it was the British dance edition

50:19

>> y

50:20

>> in leads

50:21

>> in leads at the playhouse

50:24

>> and I remember this it was like it sounded like church buzz ding ding

50:30

It started and we're like underwater like doing this and the the the feeling

50:36

between us it was like blue electricity. I can still see it in my mind.

50:41

>> It was one of the most all of us. It was one of the most incredible

50:45

dance shows sensations

50:46

>> ever. I I don't know what happened that night. You could you could feel the

50:50

audience. I could feel the energy. It was just incredible. And Kimell hadn't

50:55

started with us and he was sitting sat in the audience watching us. He was

50:58

like, "Holy [ __ ] these guys are phenomenal."

51:03

>> Yeah.

51:03

>> Yeah.

51:04

>> Oh, wow. That was a highlight.

51:06

>> Um, we did the V Venice BNL.

51:09

>> Yeah.

51:10

>> That was incredible.

51:13

>> The tour of America was just phenomenal.

51:15

>> Not just for the dancing, but for the experience,

51:19

>> culturally.

51:20

>> Oh, yeah.

51:21

>> Traveling around.

51:21

>> Every place we went, it was like they knew we were coming. Like, we even went

51:24

to Nashville and the MTV. Like,

51:27

>> wow. Country Music Awards were on.

51:29

>> Oh, you're making me sad. I wish I was there.

51:31

>> I tell you, it was

51:32

>> just take me to Nashville, please.

51:38

>> Don't she'll get up. Start line.

51:41

>> It was Yeah, it was phenomenal.

51:43

>> So, are you in your 20ies at this point?

51:46

>> Yeah, I was just a wee whippers snapper

51:48

>> having the time of your life. I

51:50

>> was 20. I joined Phoenix at 21.

51:54

>> Wow.

51:55

>> Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And how long were you in Phoenix for?

51:59

52:03

is cuz I'm not one of them blow the trumpets. I got nominated after two

52:06

years. Did an apprenticeship for a year

52:10

52:18

then I got um nominated for the dance critic circle award. Outstanding female

52:23

performer. Amazing. I know. Amazing.

52:26

>> I know. Amazing.

52:27

>> I'm like, what?

52:28

>> You should have won that.

52:29

>> No, I was up against

52:31

>> who?

52:32

>> Amy. Amy Holland's Head.

52:35

>> I know. At the time I was like, who are you?

52:38

She how she won? Really upset.

52:41

>> Did you have to go to the big fancy award?

52:42

>> Yes. How was that?

52:45

>> Again, very nervous system, sympathetic nervous system inducing. I was like,

52:49

"Oh, really sweating." I remember sweating through my dress. I was like,

52:51

"Oh, I'm sweating."

52:52

>> Imposter syndrome there. complete. You know, Angela said to me, "And whatever

52:56

you do, darling, don't get up there and thank your mother." Something like that

52:59

if you win.

53:02

>> I can't believe you just said that here on this. Brilliant.

53:06

>> Angela, that is brilliant.

53:08

>> You're That's red rag to a bull, Angela, cuz that I'll go hardcore on thanking my

53:12

mother if I do get up and win, but I didn't win.

53:18

>> So, yeah, that was that was a highlight. It was in the dancing times was like

53:21

dancer of the month that year. It all came.

53:23

>> Oh, brilliant. Yeah.

53:25

>> Yeah, it was great.

53:26

>> So,

53:27

>> great.

53:27

>> So, Phoenix for that long.

53:29

>> Phoenix for that long. And then we had Javier. Yeah.

53:32

>> Jav told us we got on far too well. I think he brought people in to make us

53:36

not get on so well.

53:37

>> Gosh. Do you think it he just felt like you all a bit complacent even though you

53:41

were rocking it out of the park?

53:43

>> I just think he didn't feel part of the crew. That was basically it. Cuz when he

53:47

came and choreographed on us, we were all vibing. It was great. Yeah.

53:50

>> And then it was like

53:54

>> okay. So then as a collective we all just not with each other says you leave

53:58

and you leave and you leave and we all just went n

54:00

>> dissipated. Yeah.

54:02

>> So we all left. Me, Lisa, Kylie, Yan, Kimble.

54:07

>> Gosh.

54:07

>> Yeah.

54:08

>> All in one go.

54:08

>> And Kevin.

54:11

>> Yeah. We went to So Kylie and Kimell went

54:17

Michael Clark. I can't remember. Lisa went well just left and scattered

54:22

scattered and then I went to DV8.

54:24

>> And you went to DV8.

54:25

>> I think Lloyd had seen me dancing at Slers Wells

54:27

>> and you'd also been nominated as you're at the top of the list.

54:31

>> Yes.

54:32

>> Yes. Even now saying that I'm like yeah

54:35

>> well I know it doesn't go in but

54:39

>> I was

54:39

>> tell us about it. It was a very intense time. M

54:43

>> it was a very um it showed me definitely what I didn't want to do

54:48

>> in terms of dance

54:49

>> right

54:50

>> it showed me how far people will go to do what choreographers and directors are

54:54

asking them

54:56

>> yeah mentally physically

54:58

>> what an environment to try and grow some but when you look at the work you're

55:02

like what this is phenomenal but some people can handle that some people will

55:07

totally rise to that kind of challenge

55:10

>> and sort of enjoy it Yeah. And that's fine. That's if that's their vibe. But

55:16

uh no.

55:17

>> And a different kind of question, I guess, Tanya, but did you ever in that

55:21

moment, did you feel like you had the agency to be able to say, I don't want

55:25

to do this, or did you feel like under pressure to like have a job? I'm just

55:28

thinking about like being in this freelance world that we all know is

55:32

difficult and is becoming increasingly difficult

55:34

>> and it's precarious financially.

55:36

>> Was there a sense that I've got I can do this and I and something else will be

55:40

out there? Yeah. I just thought I remember saying to Coral I was like,

55:44

"I'm leaving."

55:46

>> She was like, "No." I remember packing my knee pads.

55:49

>> Uhhuh.

55:51

>> Because he'd There was an incident. I won't go into. So I said, "I'm leaving.

55:56

I'm not putting up with this." There was never a feeling like I've got to stay

56:00

here cuz it's a job. I suppose

56:03

>> there's the there's the kind of thing, right, I'm in this with everybody else.

56:06

I've kind of got to see it through. For some reason it was like um suppose it's

56:11

that training like I never even thought right you personally when you say you're

56:16

going I thought I've got 3 months left.

56:19

>> Yeah.

56:19

>> Uhhuh.

56:20

>> I'll do that I'll do that we tour in Germany and then I'm offsk Yeah. I'll

56:25

never be back to this because this isn't worth it.

56:28

>> And that's how it was. And then after that I think it it really really had an

56:32

effect on me. I didn't dance for a long time.

56:34

>> Gosh. Oh

56:36

>> that's very sad to hear actually.

56:38

>> Yeah. Well, what did I do? I tell you I came back and I sold cigarettes.

56:43

>> You are kidding me.

56:45

>> No, Lisa will phoned me up.

56:48

>> Totally. It was shift. Total shift.

56:51

>> She phoned me up. We were both looking for a job. It must have been in lead

56:54

>> and it was all like agency work.

56:57

>> She and she was like,

56:59

>> "There's a job going um and it's like selling cigarettes inside the shops."

57:04

And I was like, "Absolutely not. Absolutely not. No. My cousin smokes.

57:07

It's a terrible thing. I've been in Australia with her life's dominated by

57:10

smoking. I would not do that." She£10 an hour. I was like, "Yeah,

57:14

>> where where do I sign up?"

57:17

>> So, I did that for a while and then I got into teaching,

57:21

>> right?

57:22

>> I started teaching, which I didn't really want to be doing, but then it was

57:25

a money thing, but I didn't think to look I didn't think to go and audition

57:28

for another company.

57:29

>> Why not?

57:31

>> I don't know. Oh, I did some work with Tia and Duck, Mad Dogs.

57:36

>> I did some work with Errol and Deina who had worked with at Phoenix. Went and did

57:39

a little project with them.

57:42

>> I don't know.

57:43

>> And what what did you teach and where?

57:45

>> I started off teaching cheerleading for Dazzle.

57:48

>> Oh, cool. Great. Yeah. Great.

57:51

>> That thickened my skin.

57:53

>> Oh, dear. The first time I taught in the school, this girl came up to me and

57:58

went, "This is [ __ ] When's Cherry coming back?

58:05

>> Was that a private school, Tanya?

58:07

>> It was.

58:08

>> It was needs grammar. I said, "This isn't what I expected."

58:18

Brilliant.

58:18

>> Uh, and then I got a job at Phoenix. I was the what do you call it?

58:23

>> Yes. Youth dance coordinator facilitator. So, I was doing the the

58:26

youth academy. I was teaching the Saturday school. Those kids I just saw

58:30

the cop.

58:31

>> Um what did do? What else did I do?

58:35

>> Oh, I just did a lot of teaching Phoenix. I was out teaching their

58:39

educational work all over the country. So teaching 5-year-olds till to

58:44

university levels.

58:45

>> Yeah.

58:45

>> Did you enjoy it?

58:48

>> H I think like you were saying about the pressure from doing the youth academy

58:52

found that quite stressful. But what

58:53

>> do you think what was stressful the actual delivering of the classes or the

58:57

thought of delivering the classes to perhaps groups that you had to do more

59:03

than just teach dance to?

59:05

>> Yeah, I think maybe the responsibility and

59:08

>> also cuz my brains are like it was you're dealing with all these different

59:14

energies especially when it's like 13 to 18. Yeah,

59:17

>> you're getting spicy children, you know. I never never heard that, but in my

59:22

mind, I'm like, what are they thinking? Do you think this is crap? Do you think

59:24

I'm weird? Cuz I'm making them shout and jump. So, it's constantly

59:29

sort of judging

59:30

>> all the time.

59:33

>> Yeah. But also was the outreach program for FE dominantly going into

59:39

areas of deprivation.

59:41

>> Mhm. So in a way you're sort of returning

59:45

to like situations where you're engaging with young people who were perhaps from

59:52

a similar background that you grew up in. Yeah. So you could connect with that

59:56

but also understand how challenging that could be as well because you're sort of

holding the space in many ways like both as a dance teacher but also holding the

space

>> uh emotionally or psychologically as well to sort of

>> win them over and then cheerlead them and then give them some skills as well

because

>> that for me is excellent. That's what I love.

>> Right.

>> And just we were speaking about this the other day.

>> Yeah.

>> Working with,

>> you know, with children or working with anybody who has already experience that

it's not um it's nothing new.

>> So if you're working with girls that have done ballet and tap and you would

get this, I've done ballet, jazz, tap, and modern and I do this and and ride a

horse. Okay, let's see what you're up to. Whereas when you go into these

areas, they're socially, economically not as affluent

>> like nine and hairs, you're working with children who aren't maybe getting

attention at home, who aren't getting any of these aspects. So for me to go in

and be like, what's that you're doing? See, when you just did that jump, my

gosh, that was incredible.

>> Who I I say that's beautiful a lot. Even with older adults, that's beautiful.

That's amazing what you're doing. And but mean it genuinely. I'm not one of

them. You know when you get somebody it's like that's lovely that no and I'll

tell them why that's beautiful why that's beautiful to me and then you can

see other kids right I'm going to do that I'm going to do that I remember did

like a karate piece in Gorth where they were all like this that's but got the

boys predominantly there was a lot of guys got the boys to start doing their

physicality wow when you're doing that can you find the strength in your body

to do that a bit more and then can you find that strength could you lift that

girl like that wow okay Yeah.

>> Getting that vibe going.

>> Yeah.

>> That for me is pure pleasure.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Brilliant.

>> To see

>> and to to feel like you can affect some change however

>> not small cuz it's not small. Actually, someone being told that that's beautiful

might transform

>> and just an aware like raising awareness of your physicality. You say what you

talking about earlier like this whole like it's all about the brain and the

mind like actually

>> what can happen when you realize what can happen. Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Absolutely.

>> Yep. Your potential.

>> Exactly.

>> The inherent healing capacity and the potential of your body and your mind is

phenomenal

>> given the right circumstances.

>> Yeah.

>> Unreal. And I've seen it.

>> Joyful. Ah. I remember one joy. Oh, it might even make me cry, but I've got to

tell you, I went to a school in H Hills one time. I was teaching and at the end

I just like flicked my little um cool down and it was uh the lobby se inside

so strong. Oh yeah. And all the kids go right. They all like singing it. I was

like we sing this at assembly. I was like okay kids that's fine. Stand up

straight. It was just like so so those moments are

really really really special.

>> It's interesting.

>> Who who are your mentors over the years? And

I mean also mentors, not just necessarily in terms of

dancing or doing dance, but also maybe like for Laura and I for sure there have

been kind of key people who have given us the confidence not to have that

imposter syndrome or

>> like been cheerleaders for you, you know,

>> been sort of like cheerleaders,

>> giving you a nudge.

>> Yeah. because perhaps also they understood our backgrounds because they

were from that a similar kind of background. Has there been anyone else

anyone for you in that way

>> over the years?

>> I would say definitely Tioa

>> right gosh such a beautiful woman.

I was having a really hard time when Javier came and I was like, I'm

going to stop doing this. I like I can't do this anymore. Basically,

there was somebody in the company I would say was bullying me.

>> Yeah. It was terrible. And it was the same thing with

or I felt bullied. I felt like because I was quite such um I don't know maybe

like a a character. It's it's always good to chop them down, isn't it? To get

rid of them.

>> So Tia, I remember this. I was having a stretch before and after class. Stretch

before and after class, kids. I'll keep you going till you're 44.

>> And um Tia came up to me. She's like, "What is this? What are you doing?" I

was like, "What do you mean?" She's like, "You're not giving 100%. You're

not being yourself." I was like, "Oh, I'm just fed up. I just

can't." She was like, "No." She's like, "Okay, if this is your last time, make

it your last time."

>> Wow.

>> Go out with a bang. And I was like, "You're [ __ ] right."

>> Fellow tough.

>> Totally absolute warrior woman. Incredible women. And I I also sorry to

interrupt. I just think what you just said about that idea like being a bit of

a character and I wondered if that you know if you ever might associate that in

relation to a class thing as well

>> you know like knock them down a little bit of like an easy target or like that

sort of sense of

>> um feeling like that you're a bit exposed in a

sense as somebody who maybe

>> needs to be taken down a peg or two. sort of confidence or like you said

earlier about learning to just own who you are and sort of not not feel shame

or anything,

>> but I just I think because I feel like I can really relate to that idea like when

I went to university of, you know, um becoming a bit of a parody

>> because I'm northern and I was, you know, in Surrey and um not certainly not

so much in the like the dance space, but socially just bit of a novelty, you

know, and and actually being a bit funny. Once one person I remember one um

person's boyfriend said to me, "Oh, you know, I really like you cuz you know

what? You're just like Veronica Wood, aren't you?"

>> And it was that like northern come meet comedy like like a woman who like like

it was almost like and I and I think at the time I just remember for the first

time thinking, you know, it's almost like I'm not actually I'm never going to

be taken seriously as a woman here

>> because I just have to be a bit of a joke or I am bringing the jokes.

>> Not at all. But it's totally fitting in to that and oh yeah, oh yeah, I can fit

in like this cuz I'm a bit like this. So it's easier, isn't it? If there's a

comedic thing and people can have a laugh with you on perhaps laughing at

you. I didn't I didn't feel like that, Phoenix. I just thought there was I

think in hindsight looking at like the the character that was kind of coming up

against me there's probably jealousy when I look back and think ah

>> jealousy and jealousy

>> and fear

>> and fear and yeah it's all those intricate things isn't it when you get

>> the the complexities of dance which I never experienced before. We never had

to. And we were such characters in ourselves. It was like Kylie's from a a

Jamaican black background. Lisa's blonde and from Ghoul. You know, Kevin's mixed

race. I was mixed race. Yan's from Brazil. Martin was black. T is Finnish.

Douglas is black.

>> Deina's Scottish.

>> Daran was so clever in choosing us. It was unbelievable. It was like

>> Yeah. And so it was a time where we could be

ourselves regardless of all this imposter syndrome and your confidence.

Yeah. There was never a a batten down of who we were.

>> Yeah.

>> It was more like, well, what can you guys all do together? You're here

because of you.

>> Let's see it. That's why you're here. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Interesting.

>> And what do you think your relationship to class is like now, SA? Do you ever

think about it or reflect upon how how your your life

might be different to how your life was when you lived in Dundee?

It's really weird just thinking about like when you're saying being in the

university. I've always had these opportunities

to would you say rise above the mental idea being working class of being poor.

For some reason, me me and my pal cuz we did the biology got passes to Dundy

University.

>> Wow.

>> There's always been this grandeur, this idea that the universe actually is going

tang. This is all here for you. And I kind of still feel like that now I

suppose is a bit like

>> but I suppose what's interesting is that you feel like you might need a pass to

access it rather than it was just a given.

>> Ah cuz cuz I was still at school. I wasn't at university. It was like

>> Ah, okay. I see.

>> Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. It was

>> I thought you were sort of more broadly metaphorically speaking, but maybe no a

pragmatic thing. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Like a library card. It was a library card to get in. So I've always

been in

>> like even being at the rep as a 9-year-old. Here is this world that's

already opened up to me. Here is this library that's opened up to me. Here is

the world that's opened up to me. So I suppose now

>> financially I still am a workingass

>> lady. working but what is abundance and wealth and what is

the the reason of class we were saying what is working class now

>> what is middle class

>> I'm not middle class maybe I've got a middle class mentality

>> but and do you think but but then again it's like you say what where does that

distinction exist and is that a mindset is it is it financial what are the you

know how do we draw that line I mean

>> and do you think like workingass kids would look at you and see you as working

class or see you as quite

>> that's interesting

>> posh. Do you know what I mean?

>> Um I don't know. My friend Adriano Adwelli

said a beautiful thing. He's like Tanya will talk to the president of the United

States like she would talk to the man taking your bins.

>> Oh, extra.

>> And that is how I am. That's the truth.

>> Yeah. And you've always been like that. Absolutely. Yeah.

>> So there's no pretend. I don't feel like I'm very

aware of different people's energies and how they are and what they need rather

than kind of pretending to to to like or be with them. I understand this woman

doesn't want this full on Tanya, so I'll just back off a bit.

>> Or this woman wants a joke, so I can joke because that's what I like. a

little bit like a chameleon. But I just thinking about like them talk

about middle class and working class. I am really proud to be working class

because it's given me the foundation.

>> All these struggles that come with working class have

>> made you totally made me.

>> It's the determination of

>> right I'm going to do this dancing so I'm going to keep going. I know in the

back of my mind somewhere in my subconscious knew that working and

becoming a dancer was the way out,

>> right?

>> Was the way out. Dundee was the way out of this restrictive mother relationship

was the way to explore the world and it was waiting for me.

>> Yeah.

>> And all the things that come along with, you know, all these issues, the mother

issues, all these kind of things, the poverty, it makes you resilient. It

makes you practical.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. It makes you able to sew your jeans up because you're going to be

wearing them for another six weeks. It makes you practical in how to to shop,

how to look for things, how to save, how to do DIY, all these things for me on

that kind of practical level. And then all the things that come with

workingass people, real community for me,

>> right?

>> Yep. Real sense of community.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And so we've been asking our guests this question. Can you still do

the splits?

>> No, we haven't asked them that.

>> We might start asking that.

>> I thought you ask that you can still actually

>> and and it's just it's sort of like a bit of a provocation a little bit,

>> but we've got this term that's banded about for a while called leveling up.

So, a do you think that's a problematic

term?

>> Give me a little bit of insight into what leveling up means.

>> Interesting. Okay. Well, maybe that'll explain it all because then the next

question would be, do you think you've leveled up?

>> So, it it's interesting because I think

>> Oh, as in leveling up to a middle class, right? Yeah. Well, so leveling up Yeah.

Yeah. is that has come through

>> conservative government. Yeah. Mhm.

>> Um in relation to how wealth in the UK could be more evenly

>> distributed but so and it's about equity of opportunity effectively. Mhm.

>> Um so it's this notion that talent um doesn't just come from well talent

shouldn't just come from wealth. Um but also the fact that I think it's

definitely from an economic point of view but it's also very much about

opportunity but this notion of leveling up is that there's it comes from the

fact that there is such great disparity in the UK around opportunity and

opportunity and its relationship to talent um and actually how it can be

more evenly spread. Um but it's this sort of sense of leveling up that is

that there's there's obviously a deficit or there's something there's some

there's catching up that needs to happen.

>> Yeah. Or or a notion that social mobility is only ever in an upward

direction.

>> Yeah.

>> Mhm.

>> Do you know? So, it's sort of demonizing perhaps where you're from or where where

you start or the conditions of your life

>> because you've got to demonize it to want to pull away from rise above it out

of it.

>> Yeah. And it's kind of this also this London centric thing that it's like

London's against the rest of the country in the sense that London is but also we

know that London isn't an equitable place to live. Um, but it's this sort of

sense that how can the rest of the UK catch up? Um,

>> they start allowing art to still be in schools for a start.

>> Well, thank you very much.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> I I just find it really bizarre. I saw a great thing the other day about this is

our innate capacity to create, to do art, to sing.

>> That's what we're meant to do.

>> Yeah. That's for to include ourselves in community to to you know we would dance

around fires and that connects people so that basic skills like that to then you

know I saw a lot of actors and stuff that are coming through are coming from

extreme affluent backgrounds

>> but then where are you getting the like you were talking about where you getting

the interest where you getting the grit

>> where are you getting the we used to call it the hot chili juice.

Where is the Do you know what I mean? This I'm doing

this.

>> Yeah. Like a passion.

>> Where's the passion? Exactly what I said with those kids who are given an

opportunity to and then they latch on to it like I did. You latch on to it. But

if it's just trickling down like that's something I mean I don't know there's

phenomenal actors who have come from wealth.

>> How how do you spread? I I have no idea but it's a consideration for government

now to be putting this back into schools to re to realizing from me how that

simple connection with dance and community dance has changed my life and

without that I'd be in probably a very sorry state.

That is what needs to be taken in consideration. and we've taken away

community centers. We're taking away libraries and we're taking away

facilities.

>> And then they're asking questions like,

>> "What? What's going on with all these children's mental health?" Well, they're

sat on their phone. They don't know how to talk to each other.

>> Sorry.

>> Having simple conversations with each other.

>> Yeah.

>> It's very interesting. Like the vibe in certain dance colleges I go into now,

it's like like a ghost town. Sitting on the train

even. into like a ghost time. Not just with young people. This is happening all

over everywhere.

>> Just on their phone, aren't they?

>> I I'm terrible. I'm such I've got two phones. I've got one for business, one

for And people try and call me on one. I'm like, "No, you can't get me on that

one because it's an intrusion I find into your life and it's um the doom

scrolling they call it.

>> Very easy to get sucked in that world and you can chat to anybody you want in

the world through that. But to sit with somebody and to see how they're feeling,

to really connect. So all this has been taken away.

>> And what happens if you've not got a community center?

>> Do you go out and play in the street? Well, it's not safe to do that anymore.

>> You stay in the house.

>> Well, it's hilarious cuz I think it's like 50 times safer to be out on the

street than in your bedroom on that body phone.

>> Definitely. But it is it's actually safer seemingly now to be out on the

street playing than it was back in the day when we were roaming for hours.

>> Yeah.

>> So it's I mean this this is another whole podcast of what needs to be done

for me. Money doesn't need to be spent billions on all this military protection

because if somebody wants to blow up the world and start a a a war they'll push a

button.

>> Mhm. So, how can we in the next if for two

years we spent all that money and got everybody happy and then it was like

>> at least at least we'd have two years of raving and boogieing and art and people

would be liberated and then maybe there wouldn't be

>> and maybe people wouldn't fall out then.

>> Exactly.

>> That could be the thing that saves us.

>> Yeah.

>> I'm a hippie at heart. That's all. And I was I was telling my son, he's like,

"Who were the hippies?" Me and my husband were saying, "Well, after the

war, people decided that this couldn't happen. This couldn't be happening

anymore. They didn't want this. They wanted to live another way of life." And

what was it all about? Peace and love and not conforming and growing your hair

and being with each other.

>> All right, there was

>> and you know, it was demonized probably because there was loads of psychedelics

and loads of love happening and barons being born all over the place. But

why would why would a government not want that?

Why would they not want us to expand our minds and come together?

Because what happens when we're God, I'll probably get a labor counselor be

up at my door the night.

>> When you're connecting from your heart, when you recognize yourself and somebody

else, you're not going to harm them.

>> No.

>> No.

>> So, we'd all be on this vibe loving each other constantly.

>> Mhm.

>> But that is to be demonized. So what comes in there? Structure and rules and

separation.

>> Yeah.

>> And I think this notion of leveling up, it's like it's not it's it isn't about

people.

>> Yeah.

>> Like like the way to hear you talk, Tanya, about connection and being

together and actually like you say, being able to recognize and

>> um like reciprocate an understanding of the world and and how to be in it and be

together in it. And actually this notion sort of feels like it doesn't it's not

beginning from that.

>> No, it's not.

>> It's an infrastructure thing. It's a resource.

>> It's another box ticking. It's something else. Let's level up. But who are these

people that are making these decisions about leveling up? Have they been to

private schools and boarding schools and nothing about Yeah.

>> So what do they know?

>> Yeah. How can you make decisions on a that are going to affect people's lives

when you've no experience of it? So what's happening now with

>> all this PIP and all these people having to get back, they have no clue. But

today I heard on the news, I was listening to the classical radio. It's

like how much are they willing to push people? When is Cuz I was reading this.

I've got a history book and it tells you what happens every day of every year.

It's like a page for what happened.

>> Oh, cool. That's excuse me. And

>> it gets to a point where the peasants or the people on the farm were getting

pushed so far then they they revolted. Yeah,

>> but what's when is it's like when is this push back going to happen? How much

can people take?

>> The average working class is going to be500

poorer a year.

>> Yeah.

>> And how much is energy going up by? Like it's

>> £10 a week people are going to be losing out on.

>> Yeah.

>> So who's why are we talk you know even even at that people aren't thinking

about I want to do arts, I want to do dance.

>> No, they're just thinking about survival.

>> Yeah.

>> What? What kind of life is that?

>> And there's wealth in this country. There's wealth in every country. It's

just this is to me it's all lip service.

>> Yeah,

>> it's lip service. Who is really genuinely going to do something? I was a

corbinista. That's how I got into Labor Party. Me and Jeremy were vibing. He's

got an aotment that says a lot to me.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> He's the first politician I heard say the word dance

>> in a speech that he gave in Durham that I went to. And it was it blew my mind

because I suddenly realized

>> no politician has ever said that. Well, I'd never heard anyone the word dance

before

>> in a major speech.

>> Yeah.

>> And I trusted that man.

>> Yeah.

>> And now it's like, nah, I'm not trusting what you say.

>> Tax the rich.

>> Yeah. Great. I think that's a wrap.

>> I think that's a wrap. Thank you so much, Tany.

>> You're welcome. And thank you for having great

cheers. Thank you.

>> Thanks for listening to this episode of the Dancing Class podcast. We hope that

you enjoy the rest of the series.

>> Please do keep in touch with us via socials # levelingup dance on Instagram

and via the web page where you can also contact the project team.