Michelle Samson:
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Welcome to Making it in Ontario, your window into what's next in
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Ontario's manufacturing sector from the
data driven researchers at the Trillium
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Network for Advanced Manufacturing.
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I'm Michelle Samson.
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Brendan Sweeney: And I'm Brendan Sweeney.
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Michelle Samson: Where do we start?
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Space is cool?
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Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, space is cool.
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This, this episode is pretty cool.
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Space is cool.
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It's not quite dinosaurs.
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Dinosaurs are pretty cool too.
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But,
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Michelle Samson: Space is pretty up there.
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Brendan Sweeney: Space is up there.
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Dinosaurs is the past.
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Space is the future.
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And in the second episode in our
series of innovative Ontario companies
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that are exhibiting at Hannover
Messe, we're gonna learn just how
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cool and how important space is.
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Michelle Samson: Our guest for this
episode is Rahul Goel, the CEO of
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NordSpace, which is headquartered
in Markham in York Region.
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And we're gonna talk about Rahul's
journey getting NordSpace up and
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running, and sovereignty, and
space races, and Chris Hadfield.
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Brendan Sweeney: And we're going to hear
about the important intersection of talent
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and manufacturing capabilities in York
Region and in the GTA, uh, an intersection
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and capabilities that, you know, rival
any other major metropolitan area, not
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just in North America, but in the world.
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Michelle Samson: And finally we're
going to, uh, speculate some more
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about which musical act is going to be
at NGen's big reception in Hannover.
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Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.
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And so we're, we're, no one will
confirm and no one will deny all these
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kind of rumors, all this speculation
about who this musical guest is.
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Uh, we've got Scorpions.
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No one's confirmed or denied.
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We've got Justin Bieber.
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No one's confirmed or denied.
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Michelle Samson: And now we've got Rahul
Goel's guess, which is a really good one.
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And you're gonna have to
listen all the way to the end
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to figure out what he thinks.
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Brendan Sweeney: So until
someone confirms or denies, these
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rumors, um, they're out there.
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And with that, Michelle,
should we get to the episode?
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Michelle Samson: We will, although I
will add one more thing, which is that
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if, for some reason you want to make
a drinking game out of your coffee
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while you listen to this episode, drink
every time Brendan makes a space pun.
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Brendan Sweeney: Okay.
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Be careful with that.
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Michelle Samson: Uh oh, I'm
getting myself into trouble.
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Brendan Sweeney: No, no, no, no, no.
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I mean, be careful with the actual drink.
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Michelle Samson: Clearly
it's time to wrap this up.
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Here's the episode.
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Brendan Sweeney: So, Rahul, here's one
of the things that I'm really interested
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in, you're based in Markham, you're based
in York Region, but I understand you may
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be spending more time in Newfoundland
than in the past, or you may be planning
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on spending more time in Newfoundland.
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Tell us a bit about that.
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Rahul Goel: Definitely.
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The Newfoundland side of our work
at NordSpace is really exciting, uh,
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because, you know, it's exciting to be
doing something spanning all of Canada.
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We're working on building Canada's
first sovereign space launch capability.
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Canada has never launched, uh, into space
before, and being able to unlock that
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access like so many other nations around
the world, this is not just something
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that the United States and Russia, and all
do anymore, lots of countries are doing.
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Um, that's exciting.
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Uh, that's going to be a
key piece of infrastructure.
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Now, of course, we're building
the actual launch vehicles, the
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rockets that'll get us there.
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But we have to launch them
from somewhere as well.
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And as a very, uh, decidedly
Canadian company, it's critical
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to us that we actually launch
from Canadian soil as well.
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Uh, so we spent a lot of time
looking around Canada for the past
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couple years for the ideal spot to
launch from, and ended up settling
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on Newfoundland and specifically a
beautiful region outside the town of St.
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Lawrence on the southeastern
shore of the province.
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So, uh, that's going to be epic,
it's gonna be fun, it's gonna
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be massive for the community and
the province and the country.
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And that's our relationship
with Newfoundland.
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And we're very proud and excited.
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Michelle Samson: Now Rahul, I am a
native Nova Scotian, and while I love
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our cousins in Newfoundland, I also
have to bring up and ask you about
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Maritime Launch in Canso, Nova Scotia.
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Uh, kind of curious, is there gonna
be a Canadian space race or are you
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collaborating with them in any way?
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What's the deal there?
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Rahul Goel: Well, we're not
collaborating with them just yet.
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I, you know, I actually started
the company because I was excited
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about a spaceport in Canada
and we're like, okay, check.
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We don't have to worry about that piece.
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But, you know, these are complicated,
projects and we did explore working
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with Maritime Launch, uh, and wish
them the best, but it wasn't exactly
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aligned with the pace and the
business model that we were expecting.
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So, um, I think a space race is great.
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It'd be good.
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We are though a tech and manufacturing
company, so we actually, you know,
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the Spaceport is kind of a side
quest, a side project for us.
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It enables the core capability
that we're developing.
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Um, all our engineers and scientists
are actual rocket engineers and
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scientists and manufacturing, and
tech development and R&D is the
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core competency for the company.
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Um, so the Spaceport is something
that enables our core efforts.
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So, I love a space race.
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I think competition is great,
and hope that ends up happening.
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Brendan Sweeney: So NordSpace, in a
nutshell, what is NordSpace, what are
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you doing and how did it come about?
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Rahul Goel: Well, there isn't one
point in time I think, uh, it's hard
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to untangle myself from the journey
and the genesis of the company.
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But really it's the amazing team that
we have and the miracle workers, the
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engineers and scientists, uh, on our team
who are actually doing the amazing work.
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I just kind of do this stuff
and I'm the face of the company.
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But the company was started by
myself, uh, about two and a half
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years ago, almost three years ago.
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Um, but it's been a
lifelong pursuit of mine.
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I'm born and raised in Toronto
in the Jane and Finch area.
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One of the things that really kept me
going throughout my entire life and got
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me excited about being in STEM, being an
entrepreneur, and all of that was space.
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Just the vastness of
it, the challenge of it.
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And seeing this major gap in
Canada's space industry where we
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have been traditionally a leader
in space, we were the third nation
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to have a satellite in orbit.
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Obviously not launched from
Canada, but we're the third nation
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to have a satellite in space.
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But we've never launched anything
to space from Canadian soil before.
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We're the only G7 country that doesn't
have this capability or participated
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in it, at least, behind nearly
two dozen others ranging from like
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Scotland and Norway and New Zealand and
Australia, the UK, and so many others.
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And we're sending, you know, our
best and brightest, our tax dollars,
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all our potential, all our aerospace
engineers, to other nations.
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So, um, I couldn't see
this happen, any longer.
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It felt like we're facing another Avro
Arrow moment here in Canada, and I felt
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that contributing to the space sector by
building Canada's first launch capability
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would be the best thing I could do with
my passion and resources, and desire
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to contribute to the space economy.
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So yeah, that's what built, uh,
NordSpace, the initial phases.
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NordSpace itself is a general space
missions company, uh, where our goal is
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to be able to go end to end for space
missions, build small satellites in
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house, build the rockets that'll launch
them, build a space port that'll support
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all of that, uh, and get it to orbit.
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So these are the three key
components of NordSpace.
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And we're tackling all three,
obviously very challenging.
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Michelle Samson: Rahul, I, it sounds
like you're going for speed, you
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know, you're trying to get things up
and running as quickly as you can.
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And it wouldn't have surprised me if
you had adopted a "move fast and break
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things," ethos that's so common in the
tech industry, although hopefully less.
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But, um, seems to me that you've taken
a very different approach, particularly
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when it comes to the environment.
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You're pioneering
sustainable fuels, right?
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Could you tell us a little bit about
that angle of what you're doing?
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Rahul Goel: Yeah, for sure.
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That's a really big part of what
we're doing, um, trying to build
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the most sustainable, most
economical way to get to space.
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So, um, in modern times, you
know, we benefit greatly from
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some very advanced technologies.
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One of the key things that allows us
to do what we're doing at the pace and
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at cost is 3D printing, and we're not
talking about, you know, plastic 3D
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printing that you might have on your
desktop now, but we're talking about
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large scale metal additive manufacturing,
powder bed fusion, and we use this to
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manufacture engines and pressure vessels
and specialized aerospace components,
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and it's really groundbreaking stuff.
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And not having to worry about going
through very complex, conventional
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manufacturing approaches to develop these
very intricate parts, uh, means that we
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can invest our cycles and resources that
would traditionally be used in kind of
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generic aerospace engineering towards
more interesting pursuits, particularly
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in the realm of sustainability.
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So, um, our rockets use a kerosene
and liquid oxygen based combination of
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propellants to power our engines, and
that opens up the opportunity for us to
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explore the use of things like sustainable
aviation fuels and carbon neutral eFuels
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that can give us very similar performance
characteristics as our traditional
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fuels and still get us to orbit.
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So, uh, we're very excited
about exploring that angle.
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Also by definition, or by design
rather, our rockets are small.
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They're not these like space
shuttle or SpaceX, Falcon Nine,
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definitely not Starship level.
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They're small vehicles designed to take a
couple hundred kilos to low earth orbit.
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So they're very low impact,
uh, on the environment.
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An entire year of our operations
at Spaceport Canada with our launch
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vehicles, we use less fuel than a single
747 commercial flight going from St.
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John's to Paris.
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People going on a vacation.
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In exchange we get to launch
Earth observation satellites
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that'll benefit us on Earth.
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Wildfires, wildlife, oceans, all
of that is possible with this
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very low impact, um, very high ROI
capability that we're developing.
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Brendan Sweeney: So you're a Toronto
guy, and you're a U of T alum?
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Rahul Goel: That's correct.
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Yeah.
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Brendan Sweeney: And so how did, um,
what did you learn at U of T, what
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did you see at U of T that helped you
launch, pun intended, this company?
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Rahul Goel: U of T was a great school.
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In fact, I am back as a part-time PhD
student at the University of Toronto
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Institute for Aerospace Studies.
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I haven't done much yet with that,
uh, with my involvement there, but I'm
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looking forward to doing that and being
more engaged in the next couple months.
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So, as you can tell, I do love U of T.
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The University of Toronto is
a great school, great
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organization, amazing faculty.
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I went through a program called
Engineering Science, uh, and I graduated
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in 2016, so it's been a couple years and,
um, to be honest, I don't necessarily
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apply the classroom knowledge on a
day-to-day basis, as much as I'd like
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to, given my role in the company.
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One of the reasons why I'm going back
and doing some part-time education
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is because I wanna dust off those
cobwebs and I love kind of getting
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into the weeds of things as well.
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But, um, just the sheer discipline.
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That was a very difficult
program, at least for me.
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And, learning how to be innovative in
your approach, being highly disciplined,
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simple skills of like not giving up, a
lot of people dropped out of that program.
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Uh, I was grateful and lucky not to.
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Those are things that prepared me, I
think, for a career in entrepreneurship
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and building the businesses that I have.
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I made a lot of great
friends and connections.
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I spent a lot of time in extracurricular
activities, building everything
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from rockets to robots and rovers.
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Uh, it was a very enriching experience.
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So, U of T was great.
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I owe a lot of whatever success I have
in my career so far to that organization.
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Brendan Sweeney: And then Markham is
the kind of home base for NordSpace.
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Why Markham?
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Why York Region?
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Rahul Goel: Uh, well, as opposed
to some of my other ventures, which
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might be in software and things
like that, they benefit from being
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a little closer to the Toronto core.
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Our company being one that's focused
on manufacturing, that's focused on
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industrialization, capability development,
and things like that, we were looking
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for a region in the GTA, Canada more
broadly, where we can benefit from all the
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incredible talent that's densely populated
within the Toronto area, still tap into
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all the industrial capabilities some
of the suburbs of Toronto have to offer.
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Markham, we're at the intersection of
the 404 and 407, that's huge for us
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from a commuting and transit standpoint.
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But also so many of our key suppliers,
manufacturers, they're all pretty close by
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because of the industrial parks, because
of the overall ecosystem York Region.
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And I think it's a perfect junction
between the Toronto dense population,
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and then also the space that
allows you to actually grow and
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develop manufacturing facilities.
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Having a 10,000 square foot manufacturing
facility in downtown Toronto will be very
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difficult, but it's also very possible
for us to tap into that talent pool.
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So I would say that was probably
the leading reason for us to
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choose Markham and York Region.
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Brendan Sweeney: And I mean, Markham
is, whether people know it or not,
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kind of the epicenter or at least the
highest concentration of electronics
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manufacturing in the country.
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But you also have just, you know,
deep seated knowledge about making,
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especially making things out of metal
and making complex geometric components
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often for the automotive industry, but
not just for the automotive industry.
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Rahul Goel: Yep.
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Brendan Sweeney: Now, In addition to
the talent, in addition to, you know,
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an industrial base with capabilities
that rival any other in metropolitan
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conglomeration of industry I think
in maybe the world, what other
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ecosystem supports exist that you
are tapping into or that you are
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engaging with, whether it's, you know,
in Markham, in York Region, in the
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Greater Toronto Area, or in Ontario?
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Rahul Goel: I would say that
it's the concentration, again, of
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industries and suppliers, everyone
being very close, within minutes.
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Whether it's a sheet metal
shop, or a CNC shop, or we
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need composites or electronics,
custom PCBs, things like that.
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That is definitely, uh,
at the top of the list.
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Just being able to tap into that
entire industrial base here in the
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GTA, here in Markham, York Region.
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That is huge and indispensable for us.
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Uh, and then again, the proximity to
downtown Toronto and other talent centers.
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The fact that we have so many
academic institutions within, you
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know, a 25 kilometer, 30 kilometer
radius of us, that is also huge.
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Most of our talent at
NordSpace are young folks.
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Some of them are straight out of school.
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And being able to attract these
individuals, so they don't have to
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relocate, they graduate and they're able
to start working at NordSpace, is amazing.
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We have, you know, at least half a dozen
incredible institutions, if not more,
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so close to us that we can tap into.
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Uh, in addition to that, we have a
really supportive community and, within
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York Region, we've had everyone from,
you know, the Mayor of Markham, to
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Minister Vic Fedeli, and many others
come by ventureLAB where I'm at right
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now, in fact, for another company.
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Um, these support systems and
opportunities for us to accelerate
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the way we develop and innovate
has been indispensable as well.
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So, uh, it's a great place to be.
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Brendan Sweeney: You're going to
Hannover, I'm going to Hannover.
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Seems like there's like a thousand
of us going to Hannover and NGen is
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leading this Canadian delegation.
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It's gonna be a blast.
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Tell us about what we're gonna
see from NordSpace at Hannover.
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Why are you going there?
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What are you looking to get out of it?
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What are you most excited about?
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I mean, I'm just, I'm excited
to have my mind blown.
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Rahul Goel: We can't wait.
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It's our first year going to Hannover
and we wanted to make sure we didn't
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miss it this year, especially because
Canada's gonna be playing a very big role.
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Canada also has substantial manufacturing
capabilities, and just being able
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to be a part of that is great.
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One of the things that people often
think about when we talk about going
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to a show like Hannover and really, I
don't know, I don't think there are many
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like Hannover out there, but they think
that, oh, we're going there to meet
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international partners and forge those
kinds of relationships, which is true.
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We're very excited about that, and
Germany's a great place, and all
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the countless nations and amazing
companies that it'll be attracting.
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But honestly, one of the biggest
reasons we're going there
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is to meet other Canadians.
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It's very hard sometimes to have
a large concentration of Canadians
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all in the same place, ranging from
politicians to industrial leaders,
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suppliers and partners and all of that.
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It's funny that you have to go
all the way to Germany to do that.
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but that is truthfully one of
the things that we're excited
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about, and strengthening our
relationships across industry and
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building new R&D collaborations.
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You can expect at our booth to
see some really exciting things.
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We'll actually be bringing
one of our rocket engines.
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So this is a single piece in-house
3D printed, designed, clean sheet
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designed, test fired, rocket engine.
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Um, so that among other things, like
a scaled, large scale model of our
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orbital class rocket, all kinds of
other interesting prototypes and
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parts and components, um, videos and
demonstrations of our work in action.
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So we're very excited about demonstrating
some of those things as well as
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sharing, our R&D whether it's
turbo pumps, cryogenic systems, uh,
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rocket engines, of course, pressure
vessels, things of that nature.
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Um, we're also excited to be taking
part in the panel discussion that's
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going to be hosted by York Region and
yourself, Brendan, as I understand, on
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advanced manufacturing and highlighting
some of our capabilities, academic
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collaborations, and demonstrating this
whole of Canada approach that we're
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taking with NordSpace where we're trying
really hard to build a Canadian supply
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chain for orbital rocket development.
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Uh, that's more important and
relevant now, today more than ever.
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We had no idea that it would be
as important as it is today.
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We've always been building a Canadian
supply chain, um, that's been part of our
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core philosophy, but now it's critical
given the geopolitical situation.
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And we'll also be at the World Innovation
Summit, so that's gonna be fun as well.
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Michelle Samson: Can you get
a little bit more specific
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on who you're hoping to meet?
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Like, what are your gaps
in your supply chain?
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Who would you really love to see you
show up at your booth at Hannover?
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Rahul Goel: Well, in addition to partners
in things like composites manufacturing,
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larger scale additive manufacturing,
post-processing of components, testing
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services, things like that, I think one
of the things we're really excited about
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is also meeting potential customers.
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We're at a phase now at NordSpace
where after about three years
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we've really refined some of our
own capabilities and products.
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And we're looking for great
collaborations or our own
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ability to join the supply chain.
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So yes, we're building our own products,
whether they are small satellites or
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rocket systems and things like that,
but we're also excited to be plugged in
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to the broader manufacturing base that
Canada has, particularly in aerospace.
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So finding those interesting
opportunities to sell our services
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and collaborate, that'll be something
that we're very excited about.
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Also, beyond just aerospace, uh,
whether it's in energy or other
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forms of advanced manufacturing.
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Brendan Sweeney: Um, NGen is Next
Generation Manufacturing Canada, Canada's
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Advanced Manufacturing Supercluster.
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They're leading this delegation.
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Did they bring this opportunity to
you or did you bring it to them?
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Or how did you get tangled up with NGen?
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Rahul Goel: NGen and being a part
of that network, uh, it was just so
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obviously a good thing to be a part of.
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Once we started gaining some
traction, we probably had half
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a dozen people at the same time
saying, Hey, have you heard of NGen?
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Are you a part of it?
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We had folks come by and visit
us, talk to us virtually as well.
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But the facility tours and all
of that are really powerful.
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Minister Vic Fedeli himself made sure
that we were part of NGen, and we had York
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Region come by and, and talk to us about
coming to Hannover and things like that.
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And then of course we'd heard of NGen
as well, uh, through general outreach.
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So it kind of just all happened at once,
coming from all directions, and you
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know, it was just a match made in heaven.
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We're very grateful for that in
particular that supercluster,
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very relevant to, uh, what we do.
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So, uh, we're excited and
grateful that NGen is taking
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the lead on this delegation.
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Brendan Sweeney: So after Hannover,
for the rest of:
2025
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are some of the next steps or what
are we gonna see next from NordSpace?
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Rahul Goel: It is going
to be a great year.
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I've been very excited about 2025 since
I founded the company because I knew in
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our third year is when we'd really have
some major breakthroughs successes, and
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we're very well positioned for that.
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There are a couple things that
get me really really excited.
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Um, of greatest importance
is our first launch.
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So we're looking forward to doing a
single engine, experimental flight
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later this summer from Spaceport Canada.
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And we have many, many layers to this.
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And of course, launching
the rocket will be amazing.
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No one's ever launched a rocket like
this in Canada before, so that's
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gonna be fun and that's gonna be
a huge technical accomplishment.
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But the fact that we're doing it and
sort of inaugurating our spaceport
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:
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location, that's going to be huge.
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That's gonna be very exciting.
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We're working very closely with Transport
Canada and the Government of Canada
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in an effort to achieve the first
ever commercial space launch license.
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00:21:22
Um, we don't have to launch this
rocket under that framework, but
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we're trying to front load a lot
of the regulatory effort and work
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:
00:21:29
up the kinks with Canada's new, uh,
requirements for commercial space launch.
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00:21:34
We're working very hard and taking on
a lot of that work right now to, uh,
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00:21:38
prepare ourselves for our first orbital
flight a couple years down the line.
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That launch is just gonna be beautiful.
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It's gonna be fun.
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It's gonna be historic.
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:
00:21:45
Um, we have the Canadian Space
Launch Conference that we're
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00:21:47
hosting on April 29th in Ottawa, the
Canada Aviation and Space Museum.
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00:21:51
We've been overwhelmed by the
response, the speakers, the attendees.
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It's gonna be great.
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:
00:21:57
We are also working, at the same time,
on our orbital flight hardware, so that
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means our orbital rocket engines and
most excitingly, our turbo pump systems.
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:
00:22:05
These are completely new technologies
for Canada, never built or integrated in
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00:22:10
this fashion ever before in this country.
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:
00:22:12
And we're looking forward to moving
from pressure fed systems to pump
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:
00:22:16
fed systems, uh, by the end of this
year, which, you know, on paper or
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:
00:22:20
audibly might not sound like a big
deal, but it's a huge, huge deal.
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:
00:22:24
And once we are able to make
those two technologies, our
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00:22:27
pathway to orbit really clears up.
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:
00:22:29
And we've got some amazingly talented
people on our team to do that.
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:
00:22:32
And finally, the other piece
of the, you know, the trifecta,
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:
00:22:35
the space system satellite side,
rocket systems and spaceport.
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:
00:22:39
The space system side is something
that we're looking to kick off
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:
00:22:41
later this year by starting
construction on our first satellite.
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:
00:22:44
So that's going to be,
uh, good fun as well.
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:
00:22:46
2025 is gonna be big.
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:
00:22:48
Brendan Sweeney: Amazing.
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:
00:22:49
So.
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:
00:22:50
We got a fun one to finish off.
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00:22:52
Rahul Goel: Sure.
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:
00:22:52
Brendan Sweeney: Um, what we understand
is that NGen is, you know, the host
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:
00:22:59
of this whole delegation, and they're
gonna have, you know, there's a brunch
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:
00:23:02
and there's a couple receptions, and at
one of these there's gonna be a pretty
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:
00:23:07
high profile surprise musical guest.
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:
00:23:10
We've started speculating and we started
on the last week's episode of the podcast.
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:
00:23:16
And, I mean, we're starting rumors now.
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:
00:23:18
Might be Scorpions because
they're from Hannover.
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:
00:23:22
Might be Justin Bieber,
real Canadian flare there.
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:
00:23:25
Again, none of these
rumors have been confirmed.
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:
00:23:28
None of these rumors have been denied.
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:
00:23:30
What musical act would you
speculate that we're gonna see at
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:
00:23:34
the big NGen reception in Hannover?
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:
00:23:37
Who do you think is gonna be playing?
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:
00:23:39
Rahul Goel: Oh, that's a, that sounds fun.
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:
00:23:43
If I, you know, there
might be a slight bias.
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:
00:23:44
So, um, Colonel Chris Hadfield, um,
one of Canada's most illustrious
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:
00:23:49
astronauts, commander of the
Space Station and all as well.
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:
00:23:52
So, obviously he's a great musician.
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:
00:23:55
He wrote the first album and sang
that in space and very excitingly,
437
:
00:23:59
uh, he's been advising NordSpace
over the last little while as well.
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:
00:24:02
And that's just been one of the
best things I've ever experienced as
439
:
00:24:05
an entrepreneur and as a Canadian.
440
:
00:24:07
Um.
441
:
00:24:08
I hope that it's him.
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:
00:24:11
Brendan Sweeney: Wow!
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:
00:24:11
Rahul Goel: Uh, I think it would be
fitting and it would be very inspiring.
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:
00:24:15
Michelle Samson: Maybe we're gonna get
an on the ground version of Space Oddity.
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:
00:24:18
Rahul Goel: That would be so fun.
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:
00:24:20
Brendan Sweeney: Good answer.
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:
00:24:21
Um, Michelle, are we
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:
00:24:23
...?
Michelle Samson: One, one last question.
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:
00:24:24
Brendan Sweeney: Yeah?
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:
00:24:25
Michelle Samson: Have you
been screeched in yet?
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:
00:24:26
Rahul Goel: That is so fun.
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:
00:24:28
So every single mission, you know,
it's gotta have a creative name.
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:
00:24:31
That's how the rocket engineers and us
we stay, uh, positive and motivated,
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:
00:24:36
by naming things in funny ways.
455
:
00:24:38
So our first mission out in Newfoundland
is going to be called Getting Screeched
456
:
00:24:42
In, and we have a mission patch
for it, and it's gonna be real fun.
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:
00:24:46
So, uh, we're close and I certainly will.
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:
00:24:49
Brendan Sweeney: Amazing.
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:
00:24:50
Michelle Samson: Perfect.
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:
00:24:51
Brendan Sweeney: Rahul, thanks so much.
461
:
00:24:52
This was, this was just great,
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:
00:24:54
Rahul Goel: Awesome.
463
:
00:24:55
Yeah, it was really fun.
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:
00:24:57
Brendan Sweeney: We'll be in touch a
couple times, I think, in advance of
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:
00:25:00
Hannover, and really looking forward
to moderating that panel that York
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:
00:25:04
Region's putting on at Hannover.
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:
00:25:06
It's gonna be a great time.
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:
00:25:08
Rahul Goel: Thank you for
everything you're doing for
469
:
00:25:09
Canada, for York Region, for us.
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:
00:25:11
We're very excited about
meeting in Germany and looking
471
:
00:25:15
forward to everything ahead.
472
:
00:25:15
It's going to be good.
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:
00:25:22
Michelle Samson: New episodes of Making
it in Ontario are published weekly.
474
:
00:25:26
Follow us now on Apple Podcasts or
Spotify to make sure you don't miss any.
475
:
00:25:31
Making it in Ontario is an
initiative of the Trillium Network
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:
00:25:34
for Advanced Manufacturing.
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:
00:25:36
It is produced by Storied Places Media.
