For the season finale of Making it in Ontario, we’re getting feedback on the season’s top takeaways from a real-life advanced manufacturer who’s on the floor daily dealing with productivity, strategy, workforce, and trade challenges. What does he think of the ideas shared by our previous guests? Are they practical for someone running an SME? Our guest is Ben Whitney, the President of Armo Tool and Abuma Manufacturing out of London, Ontario, and the chair of the Trillium Network for Advanced Manufacturing’s board of directors. Ben also shares insights on running a family business, and his efforts to inspire the next generation to take over.
Find Out More About Armo Tool and Abuma Manufacturing
Find Out More About Trillium
About the Making it in Ontario Podcast
Making it in Ontario is your window into what's next in manufacturing. Ontario’s economy depends on manufacturing, but the latest research reveals concerning trends that could undermine the sector’s strength—if we don’t address them. Join us as we talk to CEOs and other leaders at the forefront of the sector about productivity, strategy, talent markets and career opportunities, and the role of manufacturing in a prosperous and sustainable future.
This podcast is an initiative of the Trillium Network for Advanced Manufacturing. It is produced by Storied Places Media.
Welcome to Making it in Ontario, your window into what's next in
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:Ontario's manufacturing sector from the
data driven researchers at the Trillium
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:Network for Advanced Manufacturing.
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:I'm Michelle Samson.
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:Brendan Sweeney: And I'm Brendan Sweeney.
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:Michelle Samson: Okay, Brendan, this is
our very last episode of a very successful
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:tenth season of Making It in Ontario.
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:Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, I mean,
it's been a great season.
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:Qualitatively and qualitatively,
uh, it's been our most successful
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:season yet in terms of listeners.
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:Thank you listeners for listening.
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:Welcome new listeners.
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:And just in the quality
of guests, just unreal.
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:Michelle Samson: Incredible guests.
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:So last week, we kind of had a "Wrapped"
episode where we took some highlights from
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:conversations with each of those guests.
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:And then we thought we'd do one more
episode this season with a bit of
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:reaction to those highlights, right?
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:Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, we did think,
hey, you know, it'd be fun to take
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:some of those highlights, to take some
of those lessons, uh, that we derived
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:from some of our, prominent guests
and reality check them and hear what,
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:you know, a real life, medium sized,
multi generation manufacturer in the
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:London region thought about them and
what that meant to someone who's, you
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:know, actually out there running two
factories in the London area today.
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:Michelle Samson: Yeah, our guest this
week is Ben Whitney, who is someone
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:very familiar to and with the Trillium
Network for Advanced Manufacturing.
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:Brendan Sweeney: So Ben Whitney, uh,
he is the president of Armo Tool on
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:one side of London, Abuma Manufacturing
on the other side of London.
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:They do a lot of tool, die, metal fab
for the automotive industry, but as
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:he'll tell you, it's automotive plus.
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:And Ben has been the chair of
the Trillium Network's board.
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:since I've been the Managing Director.
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:He took over as Chair from Carol
Stevenson when I took over as
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:Managing Director from Paul Boothe.
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:Uh, he's been part of the board
from the get go,:
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:So he's been along for the ride the
whole time, and we've got to know each
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:other really, really well, and we've
had some successes and challenges
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:and some laughs along the way.
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:And you know what really is distinct,
is unique about Ben is just how involved
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:he is in what we call this advanced
manufacturing ecosystem in Ontario.
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:He's involved, Fanshawe, Trillium, OG100,
CME, Uh, London Economic Development.
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:He's just involved, um, you
know, everywhere he can be and
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:I think that's really important.
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:Michelle Samson: Yeah, he's got a really
broad perspective on top of being a
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:manufacturer who is down in the trenches.
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:So if anyone could really comment
on whether these insights, these
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:recommendations are practical
for small and medium sized
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:manufacturers, it's definitely him.
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:Brendan Sweeney: One day he's
walking, you know, he's on the
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:shop floor, with his staff.
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:The next day he's touring a premier
or a minister through his plant.
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:You know, the next day he's in
some of the kind of higher level
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:meetings with other stakeholders from
manufacturing or from across the economy.
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:And he'll tell us a bit more
about that in the podcast.
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:Michelle Samson: Mm hmm.
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:And I really enjoyed the parts of our
interview that were about the nature of
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:his business being a family business.
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:Um, third generation, right?
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:Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, third generation.
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:And so there are some of
these companies out there.
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:Maybe not as many as there used to
be and getting his perspective on it.
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:what that means, the potential
transitions from this generation to the
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:next, and so we'll learn more about that.
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:And it gives us some ideas, maybe
that'd be a good feature, um, to have a
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:couple multi generation, third, fourth,
even if there's any fifth generation
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:manufacturers out there that are
interested in coming, telling their
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:story would be really interesting.
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:And succession planning.
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:Anyone want to talk about family
succession planning on the podcast?
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:Cause I'm sure there's an audience
that wants to hear about that.
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:Michelle Samson: That sounds
like a really great idea.
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:And, uh, as a teaser, a small teaser
for that potential future episode,
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:uh, Ben had some really great insights
about inspiring the next generation
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:to pick up the baton, so to speak.
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:Brendan Sweeney: This is a great
episode and we've got more great
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:episodes coming at you in 2025.
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:We're going to try to top this season.
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:It's going to be hard, but I think a
couple of our first guests are going
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:to get some, uh, some ears and some
eyeballs and yeah, we're really excited,
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:um, to be able to tell you what's
happening in:
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:to wait until 2025 to tell you that.
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:Michelle Samson: Mm hmm, and we don't
have an official launch date for Season
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:11 just yet, but if you subscribe to
Making It Ontario on Spotify or Apple
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:or wherever you listen to your podcasts,
then you can make sure that you get
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:that first episode whenever it drops.
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:Brendan Sweeney: Ben,
welcome to the podcast.
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:Ben Whitney: Thanks, Brendan.
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:Brendan Sweeney: So tell us a bit
about your journey as a real life
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:manufacturing SME, in and around London,
Ontario, Armo Tool, Abuma Manufacturing.
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:How did you get here?
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:What are you up to these days?
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:Um, and what's good?
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:Ben Whitney: So I have the privilege of
running my family's automation, tooling,
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:stamping die business, Armo Tool, which
founded by my grandfather in:
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:And then my dad joined the business the
next year when he came out of high school.
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:I have a engineering degree.
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:My dad tried to make it so it wasn't an
obvious fit that I had to come and work
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:in the family business, although I had
already worked there a couple of summers.
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:So, shortly after graduation, I did work
for Lafarge for six months, but then I
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:came back to work for the family company.
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:And, along the way, I was a
junior mechanical designer, a
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:PLC programmer, project manager.
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:I ran our dye design
department for a while.
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:Then I was the general manager.
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:And then, um, in 2008, my dad
retired and then I was president.
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:And, uh, you know, for people who
were in manufacturing in:
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:2009 it a very difficult time.
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:And I remember my dad saying to
me, You know, we never lost money
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:when I was president, after I'd
been president for a year, so it's
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:been 15 years, I'm almost over it.
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:Then we, we grew particularly the
automation part of our business, and
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:by 2017 we were looking for more space,
and we looked at a couple of buildings,
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:and eventually, had a really amazing
opportunity, got introduced to a fellow
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:who had started a business called Abuma.
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:And was running a smaller fabrication
business, Abuma, inside this large
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:industrial facility, twice as big as
the building that Armo was in, even
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:though Armo's sales would have been
like seven times as much as Abuma's.
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:So what we did is we bought Abuma, both
the building and the business, and we
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:moved about half of Armo's personnel over
the next two years into that building.
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:So we have Abuma Fabrication and Armo's
automation business in our larger
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:building and, our tool and die facility.
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:Both shops are here in London, Ontario.
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:Brendan Sweeney: Manufacturing in Ontario
:
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:that, I mean nothing short of a crisis.
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:And you had a particular experience
there and developed a particular
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:strategy that at the time sounded a
bit risky but has paid off in spades.
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:Ben Whitney: My strategy
was really around advanced
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:manufacturing and diversification.
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:We always had a strategy
of saying yes to customers.
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:And what that means to us is we start
making consumable tooling for a plant
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:that's here in Southwestern Ontario.
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:And then they say, "Hey, would you like
to build an automated machine for us?
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:We've got a problem we want to solve."
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:Oh yeah, that's, that's a
hundred percent what we do.
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:And, uh, and then we take on that job.
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:If things go well, we get to the attention
of corporate or somebody at the customer
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:side gets transferred to a plant in the U.
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:S.
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:or to Mexico or to China and we try and
follow those leads and yeah, of course, we
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:want to install that machine in Tennessee.
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:Of course, we want to come down
and do support in Saltillo.
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:Partly you can illustrate
it by what we don't do.
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:I was talking to a local small
tool shop in like:
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:were closing and having an auction.
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:And the owner said to me, well, you know,
we had one customer that was 90 percent of
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:our business and they're moving to the U.
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:S., so I guess that's it.
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:So we kind of do the opposite of that.
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:We have a "Automotive And" strategy.
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:So it's not instead of automotive,
but it's just recognizing that it's
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:going to take more than that to support
the growth that we want to have.
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:Brendan Sweeney: And, and your talent
strategy, in an industry that the
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:value add is synonymous with talent.
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:Could you tell us a bit about that
and how that, what you were doing in
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:2009 versus what you're doing today?
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:Ben Whitney: You're completely right.
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:What we're doing is selling skilled labor,
whether that's the designer clicking away
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:with their mouse or whether it's tool
makers or millwrights on the shop floor.
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:So we try and create a very
pleasant work environment.
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:You know, we're flexible on times.
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:We have air conditioning throughout
the manufacturing facilities.
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:We want it to feel like a family business.
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:We want it to be a family business.
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:So we have very low turnover on people
who have more than five years in.
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:And now we focus on getting more
young people to join the business.
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:You know, there was a time before
COVID, there wasn't a lot of interest
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:in the skilled trades from Canadian
young people or their parents.
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:That's starting to turn now, where the
high schools are calling us and looking
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:for co op placements and things like that.
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:We have been most successful when
we meet people as young as possible.
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:You know, there's the saying that
you should hire for fit, not skills.
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:That's been successful for us.
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:It takes longer, especially when you're
hiring young people, but try and have
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:a workplace that's attractive to them.
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:So, for instance, in our grinding
room, equipment is mostly the same
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:as it was 25 years ago, and there
are some pretty advanced CNC grinding
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:machines, but we really couldn't see
that we particularly needed them.
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:We went ahead and bought one last
year anyways, partly to make the
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:grinding room sexier to new recruits,
and also believing that with advanced
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:manufacturing, you can kind of add some
capabilities that you're not sure how
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:you're going to use them, but you usually
find a way to use them or you start to
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:be able to win work that you couldn't
do before without that new capability.
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:And right beside a strategy to recruit
young people is, you know, a good
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:referral program because your current
team members are your best source of new
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:ones and then also recognizing that you
got to recruit newcomer talent and you
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:got to be a welcoming workplace for them.
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:Which is pretty new for us.
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:We're in kind of rural southwestern
Ontario, outside London is our tool
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:and die shop, and I guess we've
always welcomed immigrants, the
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:difference is what countries they're
coming from, right, over time.
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:And we've done a good job of that,
you know, it's more than just
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:calling your Christmas party a
holiday party, but, you know, but
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:it starts with those little signals.
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:Brendan Sweeney: Let's get into our,
uh, the meat of today's episode.
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:Last week on Making It in Ontario,
listeners would have heard some
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:highlights from this season from, you
know, a number of people who are leaders
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:in this space, whether it's CEOs of
vehicle assemblers or people who have
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:played an important role in economic
development and research in the ecosystem.
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:Some of them we kind of asked,
What would you change if you
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:could change one thing to put
manufacturing on a better trajectory?
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:Um, you know, others we just kind
of, through our conversations, got to
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:some of the major issues of the day.
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:And a lot of them were related
to workforce, but not all.
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:And your colleague and mine and
fellow board member Jay Myers, CEO
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:of NGen, when we asked him the magic
wand question, you know, "What one
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:thing would you like to see happen?"
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:He said he would like to see
more manufacturing training at
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:universities for manufacturing
leaders, for manufacturing strategists.
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:And so he said that we don't
really have that in Ontario.
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:We have great universities.
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:We have great colleges, but
they're not teaching people how
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:to be manufacturers and leaders
specifically in manufacturing, which
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:requires a really specific skill set.
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:Agree or disagree?
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:Do you think there's value in
seeing something like that?
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:Or is there, does that exist somewhere?
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:And maybe Jay just wasn't aware.
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:Have you seen this in the past?
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:How would that look?
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:How would that help your business?
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:Ben Whitney: You know, I think that's
a very insightful thing to say.
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:When I was working for my dad for
a few years, we started talking
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:about, well, should I go do an MBA?
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:And he was pretty negative about the idea
because he hadn't liked some of the MBA
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:young guys that he had interacted with.
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:And I ended up taking a master's degree
in engineering, but I took all the
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:business stream courses that I could,
and they were taught by MBA profs,
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:and I, and I got a bunch of skills
from that that were super valuable.
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:So I see what Jay's talking
about there even in my own life.
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:And then my oldest son is in business
school right now at McMaster, and
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:he's in third year, and I think his
classmates want to be in finance
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:and they want to be in M&A and
they want to be Bay Street guys.
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:And I think there's an operation stream,
but I'm not sure it's attracting the best
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:and brightest, which is what we need.
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:And I'm not sure we're telling
the story of how exciting the
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:careers are in manufacturing.
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:So we could do better, right?
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:We could do better there.
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:In Ontario, there's an awful lot of 50
person advanced manufacturers with a niche
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:product or a niche process, but are the
owners and managers of those companies
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:looking up and understanding the broader
framework and what they could do and
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:what it would take for them to double?
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:It's pretty easy to be busy
in the business instead of
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:working on the business.
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:Brendan Sweeney: Funny that you
mentioned that, you know, are
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:they really thinking about, well,
how do we double the business?
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:How do we grow the business?
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:How do we grow our markets?
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:And Giles Gerson, who is now the
CEO of the Toronto Region Board
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:of Trade, but he was a friend and
supporter of Trillium for a long time
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:in his role as the Deputy Minister
of the Ontario Ministry of Economic
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:Development, Job Creation and Trade.
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:Ben Whitney: Super smart
people in government.
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:Another thing that is a plus.
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:Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, and, and it's
benefited us, uh, significantly.
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:We had a lot of conversations about that
subscale problem, about the challenge
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:in Ontario that we have a lot of great
companies that have 50 people, that
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:have 80 people, that have 110 people,
but we have a hard time growing them to
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:become companies that have 500 people,
800 people that have a headquarters in
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:London or Windsor or Toronto and then
operations across the globe and you
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:know, maybe all the other fun stuff
that comes with that headquarters,
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:you know, like industrial R&D.
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:So, Giles likened it to a Christmas
tree farm where we grow these, you
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:know, up until six feet tall, we grow
these great trees, cut them down,
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:harvest them, start all over again.
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:Um, you are around 200 people now?
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:Ben Whitney: That's right.
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:Brendan Sweeney: And exporting to...
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:Ben Whitney: U.
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:S.
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:and Mexico, probably 40
percent of sales is exports.
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:Brendan Sweeney: Is there an interest in
taking things from 200 people and, you
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:know, the revenue associated with that
to 300 people, 400 people, 500 people?
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:Um, what are the pros of that?
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:What are the cons of that?
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:What exists in Ontario
to help you do that?
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:Um, but what barriers exist to doing
that, or to doing that in Ontario, and
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:not getting to a point where you say,
oh great, well now we have to move
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:to Detroit or Columbus or Chicago.
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:Ben Whitney: Hmm.
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:Well, I'll tell you first, the company
that we bought, Abuma, in:
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:owner, smarter guy than me, but more
of an inventor than a business guy, uh,
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:I think he would agree, and he didn't
want to go bigger than X people because
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:that would have meant you have to have
a joint health and safety committee.
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:And he didn't want to go bigger
because you would have had to
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:do this and you would have paid
different taxes and whatever.
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:Like, posters on the wall of
his office about staying small.
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:And for really relatively
inconsequential reasons, right?
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:But they were bending the whole way
that he thought about his business
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:and what was the right size.
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:And at the same time, he was in a
hundred thousand square foot building.
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:You know, Armo would have been,
we were in a 40, 000 square foot
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:building and we had five times his
workforce in half the building.
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:So, that's unfortunate and I don't
know whether that's about the person
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:or about how we structure our, our
legislation and rules and taxes.
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:I think in Canada there's a little
bit of like, you can do well,
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:but not too well, because it's
offensive to do really, really well.
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:And I don't know how you
alter that story, right?
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:It's okay to do well and donate
some money to the hospital, but,
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:oh, you donated a hundred million
dollars to the hospital, oh, that's,
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:hmm, I don't know if I like that.
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:And maybe that's part of the
Christmas tree farm environment.
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:It's just plain hard to do it in
Canada, because the market is small.
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:You know, if you're the best tool and
die shop in New York State, you're
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:probably as big or bigger than we are.
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:And so, if we're the best in Canada,
which I'm not saying that we are, there's
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:some, you know, fabulous, humongous
companies, but it's hard to grow to a
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:global scale, like, you know, for example,
ATS did, that's pretty hard to do.
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:And then, it's also important for these
family businesses that the successors
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:are interested in working there.
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:Lots of people in my kid's
generation where they, you know,
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:they all want to be dentists.
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:They don't want to go
and run the tool shop.
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:And a little bit, I think it's
because mom and dad came home and
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:told too many horror stories about
the tool shop and how hard it was.
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:But they didn't tell enough stories
about, but I can knock off early on
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:a Friday, and we're making more money
than we would make as a dentist.
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:And we're, you know, have the
freedom to chart our own path.
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:I know my daughter has said, Oh,
I never want to go into business.
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:Um, too many stories from
dad, and my wife was running a
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:business as well for a while.
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:You know, it's just too many stories.
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:Brendan Sweeney: As the owner of a
family business, what advice would you
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:give to other owners that are in this
kind of succession journey and that
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:they're trying to compel or even inspire
other family members to get interested
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:in getting involved in the business or
even taking the business over one day?
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:Ben Whitney: I think taking them to
the business when they're young even
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:if it's after hours and letting them
sit on a forklift and point to the
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:squishing machine and, which is what
my kids call the press and, you know,
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:be around it a bit so that they can
picture it a little bit is important.
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:And depending on the age and
what's appropriate, talking
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:about the rewards that are there.
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:I was talking to a guy who wanted to
sell his small stamping dye business,
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:and one of his sons was working there on
the floor and his other son is a teacher.
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:And he's like, yeah, neither one of
them want to take over the business.
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:And he was kind of showing me the numbers.
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:I'm like, have you told either one of
them that you're making $2 million a year?
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:Cause I think that could
be inspirational to them.
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:He's like, oh no, so they only see the
money that you're spending, which in
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:his case I think was relatively modest.
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:They don't understand the
scale of the business.
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:And then the other thing is, well, maybe
you're doing it all, but doesn't mean
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:the next generation has to do it all.
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:You start to bring in a professional
manager who's working with you and taking
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:a bunch of the stress of the things
that you're not good at, and then that,
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:that leaves a much easier, um, next
step succession plan for your children.
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:Michelle Samson: You know, I
feel this is a good transition
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:to Michelle Sangster's highlight.
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:Michelle Sangster from Eclipse,
a division of Accenture.
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:She talked about how, you know,
manufacturers, in order to build that
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:pipeline, need to do a better job of
showing what working in manufacturing
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:really is, you know, at all levels,
what innovation in manufacturing looks
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:like, especially where sort of this
younger generation is really influenced
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:by what they see on social media,
they see tech, they see all of these
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:things, but they're not getting that
insight into all of the really cool
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:things that happen within manufacturing.
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:So yeah, what are your thoughts on that
and how manufacturers could maybe do a
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:better job of showing what these jobs
look like and how interesting they can be?
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:Ben Whitney: Yeah, I always try
and position myself as an advanced
360
:manufacturer to kind of draw a line there.
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:Um, we sponsor high school robotics
teams, and then we demand that the
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:teams tour the shop with their parents
before we give them the money so that
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:they see what advanced manufacturing
looks like in the real world.
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:We participate with some of
the teacher organizations.
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:So then for the last couple of years,
uh, busloads of guidance counselors
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:and, uh, teachers have toured the shop
so that when they're thinking about
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:whether Susie would enjoy a job in
the skilled trades, then they have
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:a better idea of what that means.
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:And then we reach out to the high
school shop teachers, um, to try
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:and make sure that they know that if
they have a promising kid, even if
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:somebody told them, oh, Armo's full.
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:If you have a promising
person, we'll find a spot.
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:That's gotten us some really great
young people join the business.
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:So I saw a video on LinkedIn of a guy
running a milling machine and it was
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:a 70 year old milling machine and he's
working on an engine, he's got no safety
376
:glasses on, he's got flip flops on and
there's a cat lying under the machine
377
:that aluminum chips are landing a little
bit on this cat and comments are starting
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:up with, "oh, what a craftsman and how
great it is to see this level of like
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:doing that on this machine" kind of thing.
380
:And I'm just like, no wonder we can't get
anybody interested in joining the trade.
381
:This is what we're actually celebrating?
382
:What a nightmare.
383
:But I didn't have the guts to put it
in the comments because I was afraid
384
:of getting eaten alive by people.
385
:That's a great hobby project, you
know, and the video is probably
386
:50 years old, but that is not what
manufacturing looks like, and it does
387
:us a disservice to show people that.
388
:Brendan Sweeney: Do some of your skilled
trades staff have really nice vehicles?
389
:Ben Whitney: Yeah, well, there's kind
of a split between young guys with
390
:new F 150s and older people with,
uh, the cheapest van that they can
391
:get, I guess, like any workplace.
392
:One of our project managers drives
the Vamborghini, as he calls it.
393
:Brendan Sweeney: Maybe you show those,
uh, those high school students in the
394
:robotics competitions the F-150s that
the younger, uh, trades people can...
395
:Ben Whitney: Yeah, those rewards.
396
:Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.
397
:See if they're nicer than their
parents' vehicles, as a means to
398
:convince them that, hey, maybe
this is the career choice for you.
399
:Ben Whitney: That's a good point.
400
:You know, the financial rewards are there.
401
:And I remember Ontario ran that
advertising campaign where they had
402
:like the, the plates on the Porsche
that said plumber and things like that.
403
:Um, as part of our outreach, whenever
we're touring teachers or young people,
404
:I always get some of our tour guides
to be people who are, you know, 22 and
405
:younger, and when we're stopping to
talk to people on the shop floor, do I
406
:look for those young people too and have
them share their educational journeys.
407
:Because quite often it's like, "I
went to school for this, and then I
408
:tried it, and I didn't like it, and
then I went and worked over here,
409
:and I didn't like that either, and
then, you know, now I'm a electrician,
410
:industrial electrician apprentice."
411
:So it's pretty normal to
not get it exactly right.
412
:I'm actually a geological engineer,
is my undergrad degree so, you know,
413
:you kind of get there over time.
414
:But yeah, trying to meet people where
they're at, and talk to them about why
415
:this could be a good career for them.
416
:You know, people think that they
would rather be a roofer than be
417
:a millwright because they don't
want to work inside all day.
418
:Well, after a couple of winters,
I think that gets kind of old.
419
:And, uh, our best recruiting
season is August when the air
420
:conditioning feels ever so good.
421
:Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.
422
:After, after a couple, uh, Elgin
County summers up on the roof...
423
:Ben Whitney: That's right.
424
:Brendan Sweeney: We talked a bunch with
Jim Stanford about what makes a good job.
425
:And, certainly, compensation, I mean,
you can't get around compensation.
426
:You know, it takes a lot of
other nice to haves to make up
427
:for a job that pays $18 an hour.
428
:But, you know, you're not paying
tradespeople $18 an hour, you're
429
:paying them enough so they can afford
an F 150 or something cool like that.
430
:But what else, in your
opinion, makes a good job?
431
:What makes a good career, uh,
in addition to compensation?
432
:Ben Whitney: Well, one of our
competitors for labor is certainly
433
:production factories, right?
434
:And I'm not saying that those are not
good jobs, but what we have to offer,
435
:because we can't pay quite as much as
those people can, what we have to offer
436
:is variety and agency, and continuous
learning, and flexibility on time.
437
:We don't have midnight shift.
438
:We barely have afternoon shift
and almost everybody who is
439
:on it is on it permanently.
440
:Um, so a lot of lifestyle stuff.
441
:And, you know, we expect more from people
than just punching a clock and kind of
442
:doing the same thing over and over again.
443
:As a job shop we're doing new stuff
all the time which I think is, for me
444
:is really interesting and exciting.
445
:And we hardly lose anybody
once once they've been a part
446
:of our team for a few years.
447
:We all tend to grow our lifestyle
to the money that we have, right?
448
:But at the end of the day, whether
you have the platinum F-150 or
449
:the LTF-150 doesn't really, uh,
change your life all that much.
450
:But whether you're the person who
goes underneath the, the grease
451
:conveyor and tightens the bolts every
Monday, or whether you're the person
452
:who's figuring out how to solve a
problem is, is pretty impactful.
453
:Brendan Sweeney: The Shelby F 150
will change your life, but there's
454
:only like 200 of those made a year.
455
:Anyway, um, Ben, do you
want to unpack agency?
456
:You know, what does that mean to you?
457
:What does that mean at Armo and at Abuma?
458
:And does that kind of cut both
ways that you're going to give
459
:someone agency, you're going to
give someone some latitude, some
460
:responsibility, but at the same time,
that means they've got work to do.
461
:Ben Whitney: Uh, yes, I remember hiring
a machinist and a mid career fella and
462
:him telling me, you know, at the shop
that I am working at today, there is
463
:somebody standing 20 feet away watching
what I'm doing and if I step away from my
464
:machine, possibly throwing something at
me and definitely screaming at me if I
465
:scrap something or something goes wrong.
466
:Um, and I said to him, well,
that won't happen here.
467
:But just a caution, if you need
those things to be successful,
468
:you'll just end up getting let go.
469
:Because we'll just talk to you once
or twice about how you're not meeting
470
:our needs and then we'll let you go.
471
:It just won't work out.
472
:Sometimes, um, people who come from
terrible places really appreciate
473
:what we offer, but they can't
work productively without some of
474
:those, uh, styles of management.
475
:Brendan Sweeney: Styles of
management, styles of leadership.
476
:We had some great conversations with
Michelle Sangster about leadership,
477
:and with Jean Marc Leclerc, uh, the
CEO of Honda, about leadership and
478
:especially about leadership during crises.
479
:And, my guess is that
you probably had some
480
:introductions
481
:Brendan Sweeney: to leadership
during crises in:
482
:some more seasoned experience with
leadership during crises in:
483
:Uh, I think the two words that, if
you put Michelle Sangster and Jean
484
:Marc Leclerc in a room and they
had that conversation together,
485
:transparency with your employees,
with your customers, with suppliers.
486
:And authenticity, and to some degree
just, you know, being your authentic self.
487
:Maybe it's your authentic self at work.
488
:Um, but transparency,
authenticity were their tips.
489
:Michelle Samson, anything else from those
conversations that stood out to you?
490
:Michelle Samson: No, I think
those two words were bang on.
491
:Brendan Sweeney: Your thoughts, Ben.
492
:Ben Whitney: I would probably
choose empathy and authenticity.
493
:Sometimes, I wouldn't care to be quite
so transparent to my customers, um,
494
:it's sort of like a duck, you look
calm on the surface and swim like hell
495
:underneath, and you don't necessarily
want to transmit to everyone that
496
:you're paddling that hard underneath.
497
:But I always make the assumption that
people are trying to do their best,
498
:that they want to do their best, that
they want to succeed for themselves
499
:and for the, um, organization.
500
:And so if something weird is happening
with a person, then I try and start
501
:from there, because so much of our
lives doesn't happen at work, right?
502
:So many of the stressors are
happening outside of that.
503
:And then, yeah, authenticity for sure.
504
:I think that's one of my strengths and
part of why people trust us, and...
505
:communication is always
not good enough, right?
506
:It's never, it's never sufficient.
507
:But if people trust you, then when they
see the company do something strange
508
:or, or foolish, then at least they
trust that from someone's desk, that
509
:it seemed like a good idea or that, or
that things are going to turn out well.
510
:Or, or at least they come and talk to me
and go, Ben, did we really just tear down
511
:this internal shop office and then five
feet over from there we built these walls?
512
:Like, did we really just do that?
513
:Okay, here's why that seemed
to make sense at the time.
514
:Brendan Sweeney: If there was one
other description of your leadership
515
:style during COVID as the leader of two
companies, where would you go with that?
516
:Ben Whitney: Well, we definitely
overcommunicated during COVID and had
517
:empathy for people because of course,
some people's stress level went crazy and
518
:other people thought it was just a cold.
519
:And, it was a crazy time.
520
:Um, and not getting
entrenched in a decision.
521
:Like I remember telling a guy.
522
:You know, you can't work from
home 100 percent and then like
523
:two days later, we sent 20 people
home to work from home, right?
524
:So just being willing to take in new
information and, uh, and, and being agile.
525
:Brendan Sweeney: Now, uh, the big news
over the past couple years in southern
526
:Ontario and especially in the London
region, but also in Windsor, in Simcoe
527
:County, in Montreal, battery plants are
coming and we had a great conversation
528
:with Scott McKenzie of Toyota,
another Trillium Network board member.
529
:There's a theme here, isn't there, about
the the coming EV battery plants and
530
:about his experience seeing Toyota's
battery plant in Japan and he was
531
:pretty clear that life in an EV battery
plant is nothing like life in a vehicle
532
:production facility, in an assembly plant.
533
:Um, and it's, you know, some, weird
convergence of electronics manufacturing
534
:and chemical manufacturing and if
we get it into our heads that we're
535
:just going to take people from
assembly plants and pop them over
536
:into battery plants, that's, that's
probably not how it's going to work.
537
:And then, I mean, there's just
other ripple effects throughout the
538
:manufacturing sector when it comes to
these massive new investments, some
539
:of them, you know, Volkswagen, Honda,
potentially the largest manufacturing
540
:investments in Ontario ever.
541
:From your vantage point, from
your perspective, what do the
542
:new battery plants mean to you
and to manufacturing in Ontario?
543
:Ben Whitney: So I support these
battery plants and I think they're a
544
:very good thing, but barely for me.
545
:The truth is that these battery
plants are going to be filled with
546
:equipment that comes from offshore.
547
:And because they're so specialized that
their, that speciality doesn't exist,
548
:that expertise doesn't exist here, and
they're going to be twinned from plants
549
:that have already been built or are
being built other places, and they're
550
:not going to take equipment risk by
developing new equipment suppliers.
551
:And then they're going to start hiring
and they're going to hire skilled labor,
552
:and that's going to be challenging for me.
553
:At the same time, you know, it's going to
be good for the local economy, but I don't
554
:think it's particularly good for me as
a automation company in London, Ontario.
555
:Brendan Sweeney: If we know that now
and we've got three years ahead of
556
:us to prepare, how do we make sure
either it is good for you, um, in
557
:the short term, medium term, long
term, or that it's at least neutral?
558
:Ben Whitney: Well, we need to work hard
with the battery plants to train people
559
:to do the jobs that they want so that
they've got a pipeline of people who
560
:were unemployed or being up skilled
and instead of them trying to hire,
561
:you know, mid career people who have
good jobs, who are working for me.
562
:And I see that, uh, Volkswagen
Power Co is meeting with the
563
:college and the university here
and, and working on those things.
564
:So I hope that those things are
going to be in place and come online.
565
:You know, when the government
is handing out money, they could
566
:push harder that, well, this money
has to be spent in Ontario, at
567
:least for some of the equipment.
568
:And I'm not talking about the plant build,
because of course you get that anyways,
569
:but, if the needle is that plant's
going to be 30 percent built in Ontario,
570
:what does it take to move it to 40%?
571
:You know, Ontarians are investing a lot
of money, so that would be my angle.
572
:I mean, we're starting to learn a
little bit about the nuclear industry.
573
:EDC is loaning a huge amount of
money to Romania to build nuclear
574
:reactors that are CANDU reactors.
575
:All of that loan has to be spent
in Canada is my understanding.
576
:Brendan Sweeney: Oh, wow.
577
:Ben Whitney: So we'll finance
your nuclear reactor, but it's
578
:going to be built in Canada.
579
:If there's going to be a hundred million
dollars of machines come from South
580
:Korea or from China to go into one of
these battery plants, if the incentives
581
:were there such that right back to those
guys who have the intellectual property,
582
:it was like, yeah, but you need to
spend 10 percent of that in Ontario.
583
:Then they would look through their
bill of materials and go, okay,
584
:these are all the standard parts.
585
:We're going to have
those built in Ontario.
586
:At least that would be something.
587
:Michelle Samson: I think this is a
good transition to our next clip with
588
:Scott, which was about the role of
government and policymakers and you
589
:know, how they can be, maybe doing a
better job, if you want to use that term,
590
:Ben Whitney: Even better job.
591
:Michelle Samson: Even better job of
supporting manufacturers when they're
592
:making these kinds of decisions and
building these kinds of policies.
593
:So we asked Scott if he could
tell the policy makers anything,
594
:you know, what would he tell them?
595
:And, uh, he said that, you know,
they really just need to talk
596
:to manufacturers and listen.
597
:That you guys are the experts in
what you do, and also that, uh,
598
:a great way to do that is to come
and see and to take those tours.
599
:So thoughts on that if, uh, you agree with
him or if you would add anything else?
600
:Ben Whitney: Well, I've had
quite a few politicians, uh,
601
:through our shop over the years.
602
:Kathleen Wynne ran the buttons
on our big stamping press and
603
:brought it around one time.
604
:And I'm pretty sure that was
outside of her comfort zone.
605
:We invite them cause we want
to show them that advanced
606
:manufacturing is worth saving.
607
:I hate it when you read about this sort
of, ivory tower bubble of like, "Well,
608
:manufacturing's in the past and what we
need to do is focus on these other jobs."
609
:So we try and show them what advanced
manufacturing is and show them how
610
:smart our workers are and how good
the work that we're doing is, that
611
:it is world class manufacturing
happening here in London, Ontario.
612
:Um, of course, I haven't read the
agreement for how some of these
613
:big grants have happened with the
battery plants, but I'm glad to hear
614
:that some of it is, "Well, you get
this many dollars, but only if you
615
:produce this many batteries", right?
616
:So if conditions change and the ramp up
is slower, then it affects their money.
617
:But I would have liked to see more
encouragement to spend that money locally.
618
:And on the stuff that
was not obvious, right?
619
:You know, put a bit more of a lever
into, "Okay, well, to get this
620
:money, then half of the equipment
would have to be sourced in Canada."
621
:And they'll freak out and tell you,
"Well, we absolutely cannot do that."
622
:And then work towards a number that
will be difficult, but possible.
623
:Brendan Sweeney: Last question.
624
:You know, we talk about the ecosystem
a lot, where you have manufacturers,
625
:you have government, and you have
Fanshawe, and Western, and NGen, and
626
:the Trillium Network, and CME, and EMC.
627
:And you're someone who is running two
factories, but you're involved in all
628
:manner of organizations, and in hosting
ministers and premiers to come through.
629
:Why is it important for you as a small
manufacturer, as the leader owner
630
:of a small manufacturing company,
to be involved in the ecosystem and
631
:to make sure that, you're on the
agenda when politicians are nearby
632
:or that you're on the, you know,
you're part of what Fanshawe's doing,
633
:you're part of what Trillium's doing?
634
:It's not unique, but it's
not as common as you think.
635
:Why is it important?
636
:Ben Whitney: Wow, you know, I learned
so much from you, Brendan, and from
637
:the other people that I'm around, and
the chance to be around people who
638
:are running really big companies and
customers of ours and, and what other
639
:people in the ecosystem are thinking.
640
:And really, we're relying on
Fanshawe turning out good students.
641
:We're relying on, you know, the
work that Trillium does making
642
:manufacturing a priority for Ontario.
643
:So I'm aware of the importance of these
other stakeholders in our success.
644
:And also, you know, I'm blessed that
we're have the scale and the team that
645
:I don't have to quote jobs myself much
anymore or, or make those decisions.
646
:And actually by spending a bit of
my time doing some things that I'm
647
:well suited to, then it lets some
other people blossom on our team and
648
:take accountability and the reins.
649
:Selfishly, I enjoy
showing people what we do.
650
:When you bring somebody through the
shop, and they're excited, and then
651
:you reflect that excitement back
into your own team who, we all get
652
:jaded in the work that we do, right?
653
:So when somebody goes, I have been in
a lot of places and I have never seen
654
:somebody do that or a shop that's so clean
or such a variety of work or such a, you
655
:know, a diverse and exciting workforce.
656
:That keeps me going too.
657
:Brendan Sweeney: Great, um, any
parting words for:
658
:know, your journey, our journey,
the journey, for our listeners.
659
:Ben Whitney: Yeah, I would say
that first of all there's always
660
:challenges in 2024 it feels like
maybe there's unique challenges.
661
:But in 2009, I would go to meetings in
the U.S where they were talking about
662
:automotive and the forecast for Canada
was to go to zero for car assembly,
663
:and quite condescendingly, you should
just accept that you're going to zero,
664
:because Michigan, the southern states,
and Mexico is going to be where car
665
:assembly is, and you guys are screwed.
666
:Really discouraging.
667
:And if it wasn't for a few visionary
people, some of them very involved
668
:with Trillium, like Paul Boothe and Ray
Tanguay, and people in government, like
669
:Doug Ford, believing that that didn't
have to be the case, I think we'd have
670
:very little automotive left in Ontario.
671
:So, we've had challenges before.
672
:Brendan Sweeney: Ben, that was great.
673
:Thank you.
674
:Ben Whitney: Thanks guys.
675
:Michelle Samson: New episodes of Making
it in Ontario are published weekly.
676
:Follow us now on Apple Podcasts or
Spotify to make sure you don't miss any.
677
:Making it in Ontario is an
initiative of the Trillium Network
678
:for Advanced Manufacturing.
679
:It is produced by Storied Places Media.