As we enter a new year where Canadian economic sovereignty is a top priority and our automotive industry faces an uncertain future, discussions have been heating up about the prospect of a truly Canadian car company. With insights from the report’s co-authors, Brendan Sweeney and Greg Keenan, this episode unpacks a new Trillium Network report that provides insight into the feasibility of a Canadian car company, who might be involved, and how Canada’s auto-making expertise could be turned into a commercially-viable OEM.

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

00:58 Special Guest Host Introduction

03:14 Why a Canadian Car Company is a Hot Topic

06:54 Does Canada Already Have a Car Company?

16:59 Turning Auto-Making Expertise Into a Commercially-Viable OEM

26:05 How Governments Can Help

32:55 Likely Company Structure and Partners

40:23 Biggest Challenges

41:41 Leveraging Canada’s Strengths in Automation and Nuclear

Highlighted Links

1. Trillium Network: Shifting Gears: The Potential for a Canadian Car Company trilliummfg.ca/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/January-5-Shifting-Gears_TrilliumNetwork.pdf
2. Wired: That Disastrous Car Homer Simpson Designed Was Actually Ahead of Its Time

wired.com/2014/07/homer-simpson-car/

1. Magna Torrero: magna.com/company/company-information/facts-history/magna-torrero

Find Out More About Trillium

1. Trillium website: trilliummfg.ca
2. Trillium GIS: trilliumgis.ca
3. LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/trilliummfg
4. X/Twitter: x.com/TrilliumMfg
5. Instagram: instagram.com/trilliummfg
6. Facebook: facebook.com/trilliummfg
7. Old ‘Making it in Ontario’ Episodes: https://soundcloud.com/making-it-in-ontario-past

About the Making it in Ontario Podcast

Making it in Ontario is your window into what's next in manufacturing. Ontario’s economy depends on manufacturing, but the latest research reveals concerning trends that could undermine the sector’s strength—if we don’t address them. Join us as we talk to CEOs and other leaders at the forefront of the sector about productivity, strategy, talent markets and career opportunities, and the role of manufacturing in a prosperous and sustainable future.

This podcast is an initiative of the Trillium Network for Advanced Manufacturing. It is produced by Storied Places Media.

Welcome to Making it in Ontario, your window into what's next in

2

Ontario's manufacturing sector from the

data driven researchers at the Trillium

3

Network for Advanced Manufacturing.

4

I'm Michelle Samson.

5

Brendan Sweeney: And I'm Brendan Sweeney.

6

Michelle Samson: Well, Brendan, it has

been a hot minute since our last episode.

7

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, we kind of went

to ground after that canola thing.

8

It was so spicy that...

9

No, just kidding.

10

It's been an interesting year.

11

The fall quarter was an interesting

one with a lot of work to do.

12

And some of you may have

seen us out in the wild.

13

When you weren't seeing us, we were

doing a good deal of work to chart

14

the future course of the organization

and to develop and launch some new

15

programs of work, which people will

be hearing about very, very soon.

16

Michelle Samson: Teaser not

just for podcast stuff, but

17

for Trillium Network stuff.

18

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

19

Michelle Samson: Well, we are back

on the airwaves with a fun topic,

20

which we'll get to in a moment,

but also a very special guest host.

21

Brendan Sweeney: And not new to the

Trillium Network, not new to many of

22

your networks and has been a guest host

of Making it at Ontario in the past:

23

Greg Keenan, the Trillium Network's

editor and strategic advisor, among

24

other things is here with us today.

25

Greg, welcome.

26

Greg Keenan: Hi everybody.

27

Good to be here.

28

Michelle Samson: Well, let's not

continue to tease this topic.

29

We've got another hot

off the press report.

30

Brendan, tell us what this one's about.

31

Brendan Sweeney: This one is about the

prospects of a Canadian car company.

32

This is a conversation that has been

heating up over the past year or so as

33

we ask questions about our country's

economic sovereignty, as we wrestle with

34

challenges related to the overall state

of the automotive industry in Canada.

35

And I think there are a couple other

folks in our network and hopefully

36

we'll get to talk to them soon.

37

Dimitry Anastakis of the University

of Toronto wrote a really good book

38

called Dream Car about the Bricklin,

about what is generally understood to

39

be the last truly Canadian car company.

40

Although it was an American owner

it was an American designed car.

41

And we understand that some of our

partners are going to do more work on this

42

subject, namely the APMA, throughout the

year to really understand is it realistic?

43

Is it feasible?

44

And if so, what would a

Canadian car company look like?

45

So we wanna be part of that conversation,

and we're doing that in a report that

46

we released two days ago, and we're

gonna do that today in this podcast.

47

Michelle Samson: I really appreciated that

the report actually has a definition of

48

what really makes a Canadian car and how

much Canadian input needs to be in there.

49

So, we'll talk about that a bit later.

50

But I also just wanna mention if any of

this is sounding a little bit familiar

51

to some of our regular listeners, we

did talk about this a bit in a previous

52

episode with Will Harney from Hydrocool.

53

So if this conversation is of interest.

54

You might wanna go back and

check that one out as well.

55

Alright, so Brendan, why are

you writing this report now?

56

Brendan Sweeney: Why are

we writing the report?

57

Well, we're interested in the subject.

58

It seems that others in our world

are interested in the subject

59

and we have things to say.

60

It's also the case, and there are some

figures and some statistics in the

61

report, that the Canadian automotive

industry is facing some headwinds.

62

And that's putting it nicely.

63

And the structure of the industry

has changed considerably.

64

US based automakers have really

really scaled back their production

65

in Canada over the past 20, 25 years.

66

And I think we are looking

at different ideas of how to

67

build the industry up again.

68

Greg, any thoughts on

why we're doing this?

69

Greg Keenan: Well, that's a big reason.

70

but to be a little more micro than that.

71

The threat of course is the renewed

USMCA/CUSMA talks, which will start

72

next year, and whether the free trade

between Canada and the US in particular,

73

but Canada, the US, and Mexico since

NAFTA, will continue the way it has

74

since 1965, when Canada said, you know

what, we're better to be part of a

75

larger market and hook ourselves up with

that than to try to make it on our own

76

because our market isn't big enough.

77

So what happens with that discussion

is going to color the future of the

78

industry here, if not define it,

for the next, who knows how long.

79

So that's really part of the key

to what's happening here I think.

80

Brendan Sweeney: Hmm.

81

And we really do understand that there

are a lot of people spending time on

82

Parliament Hill and throughout Ottawa

and in Queens Park and throughout Toronto

83

trying to get our trade relationships with

the US and with other partners sorted out.

84

And we anticipate that, one, we

will make progress as a country

85

on this throughout the year.

86

We also hope and expect that there will be

some deal to be had around the automotive

87

industry, but you know, if you don't have

a plan B, you don't you don't have a plan.

88

So I think it's important to have these

conversations no matter how feasible

89

the listener determines them to be.

90

Michelle Samson: Mm-hmm.

91

Greg Keenan: So I think best case scenario

is, and I don't think anybody expects

92

the best case scenario to be what ends up

happening, but the best case scenario is

93

a continuation of what we have now: free

access, content rules, that kind of thing

94

for Canadian vehicles and free export

and import across the three borders.

95

The worst case scenario, which I

also don't think many people expect

96

would be a taking the US at their

word of the last several months,

97

which is we don't want Canadian cars.

98

So they put up a complete tariff wall,

which would affect every automaker in

99

Canada and probably lead to the shutdown

of production in this country because

100

90% of the vehicles made in Canada are

exported to the United States and it

101

just doesn't make economic sense to

operate for the Canadian market only

102

if you're an international automaker.

103

So I think probably that's

the worst case scenario.

104

And of course, what we expect to happen

will be within those two extremes and

105

hopefully closer to the ongoing situation.

106

Same.

107

Michelle Samson: Yeah.

108

And while we don't want the worst case

scenario to happen, it is interesting

109

to plan for it and to think about what

that could look like and what some

110

solutions to fill the gap would be.

111

So is an interesting conversation, this

Canadian car, because if you're really

112

deep in the industry, you might even

say, we do have a Canadian car, or maybe

113

it's not a car, but maybe it's a bus.

114

So why don't we talk about what has been

done already and maybe weave into that

115

the Trillium Network's proposed definition

for what a Canadian car is and and isn't.

116

Brendan Sweeney: I think we'll start with

Canada's largest manufacturing employer,

117

who has dabbled in the car game over the

years, and that's Magna International.

118

Greg, I believe you've been to the Magna

Assembly plant in Austria, correct?

119

Greg Keenan: I have indeed.

120

Brendan Sweeney: So tell us a bit about

what happens there and what we know about

121

that particular facility that is owned

and operated by Magna International.

122

Greg Keenan: So they bought it in

123

time, a questionable purchase, but I

think it's turned out to be brilliant

124

because it really has given Magna

an understanding of how a car is put

125

together and where their parts fit

and how they fit and how they work.

126

So this is one of the issues

about the Canadian car.

127

Magna doesn't actually design the

vehicles that are made there or sell them.

128

It's a contract manufacturer, so

it makes Mercedes-Benz vehicles.

129

It makes vehicles for a

couple of Chinese automakers.

130

It has made vehicles for BMW.

131

It has made vehicles for Chrysler.

132

It has made Aston Martins.

133

It has made all kinds of vehicles, but

it's always been on a contract basis.

134

The issue of Magna doing this elsewhere

has been kind of addressed and I

135

wouldn't say put even on the back burner.

136

The CEO most recently said, we're

not going to build an assembly

137

plant in North America because

there's too much excess capacity.

138

I think Brendan's numbers were

400,000 to 600,000 units of

139

excess capacity in North America,

140

Brendan Sweeney: In Canada.

141

In Canada alone.

142

Greg Keenan: Okay.

143

So, building another assembly plant just

doesn't make much sense at this point.

144

The other thing about Magna is

it's less of a Canadian company

145

than it ever has been, I think.

146

Its CEO is based out of

the Detroit area now.

147

And I think it's more interested

in becoming a global player than

148

in being the Canadian company.

149

So that's sort of a natural thought.

150

Oh, if we're gonna do a

Canadian car, Magna can do it.

151

And they actually did one, they built

a vehicle called the Torrero in the

152

1980s, an early sport utility vehicle.

153

And elements of it are on display at, is

it the Oshawa museum, Brendan, the...?

154

Brendan Sweeney: I believe they

built two Torreros, one of which,

155

fax machine and all, is in the

Canadian Automotive Museum in Oshawa.

156

And I believe the other one is at Magna's

Promatek research facility in Brampton.

157

I'm pretty sure about the Oshawa one.

158

I am somewhat sure about the

second one being in Brampton.

159

Greg Keenan: It was in Brampton.

160

I have seen it in Brampton.

161

Now, whether it's still there, I

don't know, but I saw it there.

162

So it's gonna need a bit of

updating 'cause you know who

163

needs a fax machine these days?

164

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, yeah.

165

Michelle Samson: Sorry, is there

a fax machine built into the car?

166

Brendan Sweeney: Of

course, it's a Torrero!

167

It's a cool looking car and for

168

And it looks a little bit like a refined

version of the car built for Homer.

169

Links in the show notes.

170

Michelle Samson: The

roots of Apple CarPlay.

171

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

172

Greg Keenan: And Magna's mantra has

always been, we are not gonna build

173

cars to compete with our customers.

174

And over the years, their customers have

warned them that if they try to compete

175

with them by building their own vehicle,

they will stop buying parts from them.

176

'cause they don't want to

compete with their parts makers.

177

So that's another added issue if it ever

comes to this from the Magna perspective.

178

Brendan Sweeney: The other company

that is domiciled in Canada and that

179

assembles niche vehicles in Canada,

mostly in York Region in Markham,

180

and in Newmarket is Multimatic.

181

Multimatic is a really interesting case.

182

It's a really interesting company.

183

It has some roots with Magna.

184

It is completely independent from

Magna and has been for about 20 years.

185

And it has a niche vehicles

division that assembles supercars.

186

The Ford GT, there's a supercar

version of the Mustang, a

187

supercar version of the Bronco.

188

The Aston Martin Valkyrie,

like the James Bond car.

189

And Multimatic also has a niche

vehicle assembly, maybe two niche

190

vehicle assembly facilities in the UK.

191

I believe some of the London taxis

were assembled by Multimatic.

192

Although Multimatic assembles these

vehicles, and it's partly because of their

193

expertise in working with carbon fiber

and composites, it's partly because of

194

their expertise developing really advanced

suspension and ride control products.

195

But they're building these cars

for other companies They're

196

building these cars for customers.

197

That said, about 20 years ago,

Multimatic made four versions of

198

a race car essentially that were,

you know, a Multimatic-only thing.

199

They actually had some limited success

in some races with the vehicles.

200

Although that's kind of in the past now.

201

There were four made, I don't know where

they ended up but they looked pretty cool.

202

Michelle Samson: Hmm.

203

That's a really interesting tidbit,

and I think a lot of people might not

204

have known about that, that that was

going on in Canada, and in York Region.

205

Brendan Sweeney: The other thing that

people don't know about and almost

206

forget about is that Bombardier, in its

207

several thousand units of the Volkswagen

Iltis, which was kind of a Volkswagen

208

general purpose military vehicle.

209

They assembled these in Valcourt,

Quebec, which is now a BRP facility,

210

a Bombardier Recreational Products.

211

Bookmark that.

212

Distinct from today's Bombardier.

213

But they assembled those in Valcourt.

214

They were originally gonna

manufacture them in Barrie, Ontario

215

at a facility that ended up being a

Volkswagen wheel casting facility.

216

Anyway, there were several thousand

units of the Volkswagen Iltis

217

manufactured in Quebec by Bombardier.

218

Some of them went to

the Canadian military.

219

I think most of them ended

up with the Belgian military.

220

So who knew?

221

Well, anyone who read the

report knows that now.

222

And what is interesting is that

facility in Valcourt where Bombardier

223

assembled the Volkswagen Iltis is the

same facility where BRP, again distinct

224

from Bombardier today, manufactures

the three-wheeled Can-Am Spyder.

225

So we do have a Canadian company

designing and manufacturing

226

in Canada the Can-Am Spyder.

227

So there is a three wheeled vehicle on

the road today, maybe not in the winter

228

so much, but they'd be on the road in the

southern United States right now, designed

229

and assembled by a Canadian-domiciled

well, 50% Canadian owned company, BRP.

230

But I guess that doesn't count.

231

If it had one more wheel, we wouldn't

need to have this conversation, but

232

it doesn't, it only has three wheels.

233

So we've come really, really close, and

that might be the closest thing we have

234

to a Canadian car made by a Canadian

car company, but it's one wheel short.

235

Michelle Samson: So just to kind of

bring some of this together, none of

236

these truly in your opinion, count as a

Canadian car one only has three wheels.

237

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

238

Michelle Samson: What are some

of the other reasons why these

239

don't quite count in your view?

240

Brendan Sweeney: Well,

one only has three wheels.

241

The others are not designed in Canada.

242

They're really, really, really expensive.

243

Michelle Samson: Hmm.

244

Brendan Sweeney: And in the case of the

vehicles that Magna assembles in Austria,

245

like the Mercedes G-Wagen, so if you're

flossing a G-Wagen, that's made by Magna

246

in Austria, Mercedes hardly touches it.

247

Anyway, none of these really count

as a Canadian car because they're not

248

designed in Canada, and assembled in

Canada, and conceived of in Canada,

249

and then sold or exported from Canada.

250

Greg, your thoughts?

251

Greg Keenan: I think the other piece

of that is that they are niche.

252

Michelle Samson: Hmm.

253

Greg Keenan: One of the aspects of this

is that a Canadian car company would be

254

expected to produce much higher volumes of

vehicles to satisfy the Canadian market.

255

So minimum 100,000 vehicles.

256

The big issue as part of this is if

the worst case scenario happens, a

257

Canadian car company could be expected

to replace some of the jobs that have

258

been lost, a lot of the jobs that have

been lost as many as possible, and that

259

does not happen with niche vehicles.

260

Michelle Samson: Mm-hmm.

261

Alright.

262

We would, we can't get off this topic of

what has already been done because there's

263

another type of vehicle that is hitting

a lot of these factors but is not a car.

264

So would you tell us

more about that, Greg?

265

Greg Keenan: So we make buses.

266

We have Canadian domiciled Winnipeg

based New Flyer Industries, which makes

267

buses in Canada and the United States.

268

And we have a couple of Quebec

manufacturers, Letenda and Lion Electric.

269

Lion Electric has buses on the road

in Quebec with electric vehicles.

270

Letenda is making medium sized buses

that I don't think are quite on the

271

road yet, but are supposed to be

on the road this year or next year.

272

They have some customers.

273

But again, this is not the consumer

market and would not serve as a

274

replacement for every automaker

stopping production in Canada.

275

It does show that we have expertise,

that we can make vehicles and

276

perhaps there's some alignment of

some of these manufacturers with

277

consumer vehicles as things unfold.

278

Michelle Samson: Yeah, so I think

the value of talking about all of

279

these companies, you know, we aren't

just laying up what isn't happening,

280

but we are laying out where our

expertise lies here in Canada.

281

So, I think we can take all of these

pieces and bring them into a more

282

forward-looking perspective where

if we were to create a commercially

283

viable OEM, how would this get

built and who might the players be?

284

Maybe we can start with the earliest

phase, which would be the concept.

285

Greg, do you wanna talk about that?

286

Greg Keenan: Well, the concept is

design, and a big part of that would

287

have to be some kind of vehicle,

and this is a very high hurdle to

288

leap, a vehicle that is unique.

289

A vehicle that is different, a

vehicle that has some staying power.

290

I mean, you think back to the past, to

my lifetime anyway, the vehicles that

291

have had that have shocked the world...

292

The Mustang created a new

segment, the pony car, everybody

293

else got into that segment.

294

The Chrysler Minivan, huge success,

came out of a sheet of paper and

295

was, and still is very successful.

296

Still made in Windsor,

Ontario 40, 50 years later.

297

Tesla.

298

Electric vehicle, huge success.

299

So the design and the concept

has to start with that, I think.

300

It can't be a "me too" vehicle that

is the same as every other vehicle.

301

It can't just be a pickup truck.

302

It can't just be a crossover, a medium

sized crossover utility vehicle.

303

It has to be something different.

304

And that is a huge order.

305

But I think it starts with that.

306

Michelle Samson: Can't

be another Honda Civic?

307

Greg Keenan: I don't think so.

308

There's already one out there,

309

Michelle Samson: They've already

got that pretty cornered.

310

Greg Keenan: If you're a new automaker,

what is your value proposition that

311

is different from everybody else?

312

And it can't just be, oh,

we offer the same thing.

313

Well, you've gotta offer

something different, I think.

314

Michelle Samson: Hmm.

315

Yeah.

316

Greg Keenan: Now there's a market

at a certain cost point because

317

the price of vehicles is going

up so incredibly right now.

318

But whether in this economy, in

this country, it can be made at

319

that cost and sold for say, $30 to

$35,000, I'm not sure that's possible.

320

But if it could be done,

that could be a winner.

321

Michelle Samson: Hmm.

322

Brendan Sweeney: I think of, you

know, as far as a new concept for

323

a vehicle that has found a great

market are certain Subaru models.

324

Where they're not wildly different.

325

You don't look at a Subaru and

go, oh my God, this is wild.

326

This is something different.

327

But they have said, okay, it has

some of the features of a sedan.

328

It has some of the features of an SUV.

329

It has all wheel drive.

330

And so if you are in places like Vermont,

maybe Ottawa, where there is winter

331

and that all-wheel drive is valuable,

but you don't need a pickup truck.

332

Subaru, you know, to their credit,

marketed its brand and its vehicles

333

to a very specific part of the

consumer base and has had success with

334

that and is now building off that.

335

So could be a new concept.

336

It doesn't have to be wildly different,

but it does have to be a little bit

337

different than what's out there now,

at the very least, and it should have

338

some appeal to a broader customer base.

339

Michelle Samson: And you know, if this

design and concept is gonna be done in

340

Canada, for Canadians, I mean, we've

got some unique geographies, we've

341

got some unique cultural aspects.

342

We've got something Canadian to

build into this car, I think.

343

Whatever that may be.

344

Brendan Sweeney: Well, and it may be

that that is marketable or useful in

345

Canada, but remember that that border,

where a lot of those cars are gonna

346

end up going south of in the event

that this happens, it might be very

347

useful and valuable and applicable

to markets south of the border too.

348

And just, like, you know, you might

be in a hilly region of Atlantic

349

Canada, the vehicle might have

a certain use value there, well,

350

it's also gonna have a similar use

value if you are in Maine, Vermont,

351

Michelle Samson: Exactly.

352

Brendan Sweeney: New Hampshire,

Plattsburgh, New York, et cetera.

353

Michelle Samson: Mm-hmm.

354

Similar with the Rockies, similar with, I

mean, isn't Dakota just basically Canada?

355

Brendan Sweeney: Don't tell them that.

356

Greg Keenan: And parts of Mexico with

which we have a free trade agreement.

357

Michelle Samson: Mm-hmm.

358

Greg Keenan: And even if there's

no CUSMA, there is another trade

359

agreement that Canada and Mexico

are part of, free trade agreement.

360

So that could be another market.

361

Maybe you have a slot along

the passenger side that holds

362

a hockey stick or something.

363

Maybe that could be a unique

Canadian, uh, some kind of roof

364

rack that holds a hockey stick.

365

Brendan Sweeney: So you don't

get your seatbelt caught on it.

366

Greg Keenan: Yeah.

367

Yeah.

368

And it actually fits, actually,

you know, you don't wanna break

369

those $300 composite hockey sticks.

370

Michelle Samson: Well, maybe

there's somebody listening who

371

isn't taking our ideas as good ones,

but maybe they're like, no, that's

372

the opposite of what we should do.

373

And either way, it is creating ideas

and sparking innovation, hopefully.

374

So that's concept and design.

375

What about the manufacturing stage?

376

You know, how would

Canada do on that front?

377

Brendan Sweeney: It turned out that's

the least complicated part of all this.

378

I mean, we manufacture up to

2 million vehicles annually.

379

I mean, it looks like it might be a

while before we get back to 2 million.

380

Greg Keenan: Yeah, we could, we

could manufacture and we have.

381

We don't at the moment, which is

part of the reason for the discussion

382

in the first place, obviously.

383

Brendan Sweeney: The ability to build

a facility, to tool up that facility,

384

to get the right people into that

facility and to make vehicles, whether

385

it's on a niche or on a mass scale,

that's inherent to many people in

386

southern Ontario and in parts of Quebec.

387

So, you know, it's not no work.

388

It doesn't require only a little effort.

389

It does require effort and capital

and all that, but it's something

390

that we've been doing, for years.

391

And it's something that we

can and will do in the future.

392

So we didn't spend a lot of time

specifically on, you know, what

393

does it take to actually set up an

assembly plant and manufacture a

394

vehicle because we know how to do that.

395

We will come back to this idea of,

okay, well what about, you know, as

396

part of this project, as part of this

exercise, what about coming up with

397

ways and engaging companies who can help

assemble and manufacture the vehicle

398

more efficiently or in a different way?

399

We have companies that do that too.

400

Greg Keenan: And that 2 million figure

is interesting because it's also

401

the size of the market in Canada.

402

And that is not an inconsiderable

number in terms of how countries

403

go, in terms of their size.

404

It's a big market.

405

So there's room there.

406

Again, if worse comes to worst,

and the US market is cut off to us

407

and our market is cut off to them,

there's a lot of room for sales there.

408

2 million is a big number.

409

That was not the case when we

410

The market was very different, much

smaller and household vehicle ownership

411

was much lower than it is now.

412

I mean, it's almost, not quite

the US It's more than one vehicle

413

per licensed driver in Canada.

414

I think we're almost in the nineties now.

415

So the market has changed and the 2

million is a big number for a market.

416

Brendan Sweeney: And it's an important

number because not only would it be

417

able to absorb some of the production

that happens in Canada, but it's

418

also a number we can leverage.

419

I think this is probably going to feature

prominently in trade negotiations,

420

renegotiations, ongoing discussions

about trade that we're starting to

421

come around to the fact that, wait a

second, 2 million is only small relative

422

to the market in the United States,

but for most countries in the world,

423

it's an absolutely massive market.

424

And I think we're starting to think, okay,

well, you know, how do we leverage that?

425

What do we do with that to

help support our own industry.

426

One of the reasons why we're

having this conversation.

427

Michelle Samson: All right, so Canada has

some very innovative people who might be

428

able to come up with this concept that is

different from what else is on the market.

429

We've got all this manufacturing capacity.

430

But if we were to come up with something

that's very different, marketing

431

would be an important piece of that.

432

Like the Honda Civic almost doesn't

need marketing, people know about

433

it, they're gonna go out and buy it.

434

But if you're coming to the market

with something very new, you've

435

gotta convince people to buy it.

436

So where does that factor

into this conversation?

437

Greg Keenan: Well, you can start

with, and it's not a sustainable

438

position, but you can start with

"New" and "Canadian," right?

439

that's a good way to kick off a company.

440

We're new, we're Canadian, buy the

car, your neighbors built, the old UAW

441

slogan from the states, you know, your

neighbors are building this Canadian car.

442

Buy it.

443

That's not a sustainable

marketing campaign, but it's

444

a good kickoff campaign.

445

After that, you've gotta

go, how are you different?

446

Which goes back to the

vehicle concept as we said.

447

Brendan Sweeney: And I think building

in a price that is reasonable.

448

Doesn't have to be the lowest price

vehicle on the market, but it should

449

not be so unattainable that it

essentially becomes a niche vehicle.

450

I think that some thought to that

right up front, you know, and maybe

451

it's even at a slight discount for

that particular program or category.

452

Michelle Samson: And kind of like

the uptake of electric vehicles,

453

some government subsidies could be

very helpful on that as well, right?

454

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

455

And the best way to manage the price

of a vehicle, of any vehicle, of

456

any product is to make it at scale.

457

But it takes time to do that.

458

I kind of think about in general,

three years ago, if you were in

459

Quebec, you could buy a Tesla that

was made in China by Elon and Co, or

460

by a company owned by Elon and Co.

461

And so you've got profits that are, on

one hand, going to support the Communist

462

Party of China, and you've got profits

that on the other hand are going to

463

support Elon Musk's support for the

Republican Party in the United States.

464

And we were willing in Canada and in

Quebec total to put $15,000 on the hood

465

of that vehicle in consumer incentives.

466

Whether it is this hypothetical Canadian

car made by a Canadian car company,

467

or whether it's, you know, another

vehicle made in Canada like the RAV4,

468

like the Honda Civic, would we not

at least consider a small consumer

469

incentive for Canadians to buy a made

in Canada vehicle at this point in time

470

when again, three years ago, we lauded

our efforts to incentivize purchases

471

purchases of a Tesla that was made

in China that largely supported two

472

political parties in two different

countries that, you know, maybe don't

473

have Canada's best interests in mind.

474

So there could be a role for

consumer incentives here, if

475

you think about it that way.

476

Michelle Samson: Mm-hmm.

477

Greg Keenan: There's also another

market that a lot of people don't think

478

about when it comes to this, and that

is the market for government vehicles.

479

You think about all the government

vehicles that are bought annually.

480

I don't know what the number

is, but it's in thousands.

481

Let's have a mandate that governments

have to buy Canadian made vehicles.

482

I mean, the federal government

is starting this now.

483

Provincial government should do this too,

and if you get some backlash from Alberta

484

or somewhere else maybe Saskatchewan,

but, well, this is just supporting

485

Ontario and the manufacturing industry in

Ontario, also have a mandate that says,

486

okay, not only do Canadian governments

have to buy Canadian made vehicles,

487

they have to fuel them up at Canadian

made gas companies, gas retailers.

488

Michelle Samson: Hmm.

489

Greg Keenan: So we'll support

the Alberta and Saskatchewan

490

energy industries that way.

491

I kind of call these things self-help.

492

Uh, there's another one.

493

If you look at a car lot and try

to find a piece of information that

494

tells you where this vehicle was made.

495

It is in the tiniest print and in the

farthest possible place where you can

496

find it to read it, and the little

corner of the front windshield says, made

497

in Canada, or manufactured in Canada.

498

Let's be a little more

aggressive about that.

499

Even if there's not a Canadian car

company, let's force automakers in Canada

500

to put right on the sticker, on the

windshield in big print, Manufactured

501

in Canada, and maybe even the amount

of Canadian content in these vehicles,

502

you know, 27% Canadian content.

503

So as Canadians, we can support

this with full information about

504

how Canadian these vehicles are.

505

Years ago when I was at the

Globe, I tried to do a story on

506

what is the most Canadian car?

507

And you just can't figure it out.

508

You can't get content numbers.

509

How much do you include assembly?

510

How much do you include wages for workers?

511

You couldn't figure this out,

so I kind of did a guess at it.

512

But, let's force automakers to put their

Canadian content on the vehicles, so I

513

know I'm buying that car, okay, that's the

most Canadian car, so I'll buy this one.

514

Brendan Sweeney: I think about a recent

trip to Fortinos, which is Hamilton for

515

Loblaws, and I bought some black beans and

I bought some corn to make a nice soup.

516

It's wintertime here.

517

Both of those had emblazoned these black

beans were grown in Canada and were

518

canned in Canada, same as this corn.

519

Why wouldn't we do that for a much

more substantial consumer item?

520

If we can do that for every can of black

beans, maybe we can do that for vehicles.

521

And then I would also encourage

elected officials to consider a

522

Canadian made vehicle for their next

purchase if they haven't already.

523

Shout out to Minister Fedeli, who

does drive a Canadian made vehicle.

524

At least the last time I saw

him, that's what he was driving.

525

And so I think it might be time that

we really, you know, figure out some

526

way to maybe not reward, but at least

applaud elected officials at any level

527

from any party who do choose to do this.

528

And maybe it's a lot to ask to say,

well, you know, you gotta sell the

529

car that you're in now that you bought

three years ago and get into a RAV4.

530

Or get into a Pacifica.

531

But you know, maybe the next purchase if

you're gonna be elected to lead people

532

in this province and in this country.

533

Yeah.

534

Do what's right for our economy.

535

Buy a Canadian car.

536

Michelle Samson: Love that.

537

Alright, let's play out our

hypothetical Canadian company a

538

little bit further into its lifecycle.

539

We've got service, we've got repair,

which, even if you're the owner of an

540

imported car, in some cases you might

have trouble with that, even with

541

cars that are fairly common in Canada.

542

So how would we make sure that

consumers are able to get proper

543

service and repair for these cars?

544

Greg Keenan: So this is a huge

hurdle for a new car company.

545

Buying land, opening dealerships,

especially in cities like Toronto,

546

Vancouver, Calgary, where real

estate is not cheap, or even buying

547

existing dealerships and turning

it into the Canadian car company.

548

Let's call it Maple Motors, to copy

someone else who's talked about this.

549

But there's an existing network

right across the country of repair

550

shops that showrooms could be added

onto relatively easily 'cause most

551

of these places have lots of land.

552

Canadian car company does

a deal with Canadian Tire.

553

You've got your repair shop in place.

554

Lots of experience, lots of

trust, been around forever.

555

Bolt on a showroom.

556

That could be your dealership

network right there.

557

We haven't asked Canadian Tire about

this, but we thought we'd float the idea.

558

Michelle Samson: I feel like

it's a great PR move for them.

559

Greg Keenan: I mean, what's more

Canadian than Canadian Tire?

560

It's in the name.

561

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

562

Yeah.

563

We haven't asked any of these

companies, or told them that

564

we're talking about them.

565

These are just ideas.

566

But yeah, Canadian Tire, well, if you

wanna talk about it, we got some ideas.

567

Michelle Samson: All of the companies, if

you wanna talk, Brendan's emails are open.

568

Greg's emails are open.

569

Let's talk a little bit more

about what the structure of

570

this company could look like.

571

Brendan Sweeney: This was,

again, this is where we really

572

get into the thought piece.

573

And we've kind of said, well, it's

probably not just gonna be Magna and it's

574

probably not just gonna be Multimatic.

575

Maybe it's gonna be some eccentric

billionaire that wants to swoop

576

in and design, manufacture, and

sell and service some new vehicle,

577

maybe that's gonna happen.

578

But probably not.

579

If this were realistically going

to happen, the company itself would

580

probably be some type of partnership

or consortium of companies.

581

We look to aerospace for examples of

this, and perhaps the best example

582

is Airbus, which is kind of a French

company, but it's kind of a Dutch

583

company, but it's also kind of a German

and a Spanish and a British company.

584

And it also has assets

formerly owned by Bombardier.

585

And I guess if you track it

back, formerly owned by Canadair.

586

Airbus also has the former

aerospace division of Daimler-Benz.

587

And so in that sense is very

much a European company.

588

It's made up of bits and pieces of, let's

just say a dozen different companies.

589

It's domiciled in the Netherlands,

but often when you think about

590

Airbus, you think about its main

production facilities in Toulouse.

591

So, what this Canadian car company

will probably not be is just one single

592

owner with one crazy idea who's gonna

do everything and with a lot of money.

593

If it were to happen, it's probably gonna

be a consortium or a number of companies

594

that are gonna get involved in this.

595

Maybe the Government of Canada, maybe the

government of the province in which it

596

would ultimately do some of the work would

get involved in supporting the company.

597

But, so if that's the case, what

companies would make a good fit for this?

598

Who could contribute?

599

And why?

600

And so we talk a little bit

about that in the report.

601

And I think one of the best

candidates, again, we haven't talked

602

to them about this, but one of the

best candidates to participate in

603

such a consortium would be BRP.

604

Michelle Samson: Hmm.

605

Brendan Sweeney: Why?

606

Well.

607

They make vehicles that go on the road,

but they only have three wheels, so

608

they don't count as the Canadian car.

609

They also make the propulsion

systems for those vehicles.

610

Now they make those in

Austria and in Mexico.

611

They don't make them in

Canada, but they could do that.

612

So BRP, for a number of reasons discussed

in the report, would be a really

613

good candidate to participate and or

contribute to that Canadian car company,

614

Greg Keenan: Linamar.

615

Engine parts maker in Guelph.

616

Second largest auto parts manufacturer

in Canada, growing expertise in

617

making engines and engine parts.

618

Could presumably one day make an engine.

619

Brendan Sweeney: Mm-hmm.

620

Or large componentry

for an electric vehicle.

621

Greg Keenan: Yep.

622

Brendan Sweeney: Linamar has designed

and produces an electronic axle.

623

Now, is they do most of that in Detroit,

but it would be conceivable that they

624

could bring some of that to Canada.

625

And, you know, back to the BRP and its

former connection, you know, it used to be

626

part of Bombardier, and at that Bombardier

plant that BRP still operates out of in

627

Valcourt, they made Volkswagen vehicles.

628

So I think we have to think about,

well, Volkswagen and it's PowerCo

629

division are setting up shop.

630

They're building the

facility as we speak in St.

631

Thomas.

632

It's scheduled to start battery

cell production in a couple years.

633

Would that Canadian car be electrified,

and could it have a battery in St.

634

Thomas at PowerCo?

635

And would that bring Volkswagen

into the partnership, either

636

as a just a transactional

supplier, or as something more?

637

Again, haven't talked to Volkswagen

about this, but it's an idea.

638

And would that be enough to constitute,

well, it's a Canadian made car, and

639

it's got a Canadian made battery, but

that battery was made by Volkswagen.

640

Is that enough to

constitute a Canadian car?

641

I think so.

642

Michelle Samson: We'll allow it.

643

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

644

Greg Keenan: There's lots of

expertise in this country.

645

Incredible amount of expertise

that if put together could work.

646

Brendan Sweeney: The idea of, you

know, whether it's Linamar and the

647

things that Linamar makes, whether

it's a PowerCo battery made in St.

648

Thomas, it really does bring

up the question about the most

649

valuable part of the vehicle,

and that's the propulsion system.

650

And until recently Canada has not had

a homegrown full engine or full battery

651

or full transmission manufacturer.

652

We make lots of parts and we have

the facilities operated by US and

653

Japanese companies that make these

propulsion systems in Canada, but

654

we don't have a truly Canadian

propulsion system manufacturer.

655

So when we think about the Canadian

car, we might want to say, okay,

656

you know, is this a pun intended

vehicle to really think through our

657

ability to make propulsion systems?

658

We talked about fuel cells a while back

with Will Harney, and the one place

659

where we do have a Canadian domiciled

company that does put propulsion

660

systems in on-road vehicles, mostly

buses mostly that aren't on the

661

road in Canada, but as Bellard Power

Systems in Burnaby, British Columbia.

662

So maybe our play is to have a vehicle,

maybe Maple Motors or, you know,

663

the Trillium by Maple Motors has a

British Columbia made fuel cell system.

664

Maybe that touches some

componentry that's made by Linamar.

665

Maybe that touches a motor that's made

by our friends at Enedym who are located

666

over in the McMaster Innovation Park,

where I used to work, slinging fridges

667

around at Camco, shout out Camco.

668

And maybe that is really the focus

of the vehicle and what makes the

669

vehicle different, that it has

a Canadian propulsion system and

670

that Canadian propulsion system

is you know what our value add is.

671

Maybe it's electri-, I mean it should

be, it's probably gonna be electrified.

672

Maybe it's battery electric,

maybe it's fuel cell electric.

673

And you know, when we go back to

some of the concept cars that we've

674

made in Canada, the Torrero, even the

Torrero, had an Eagle racing engine

675

that was made in the United States.

676

So even the Torrero did not have

a Canadian made propulsion system.

677

Michelle Samson: Hmm.

678

This is Making it in Ontario, but

I do love the idea of making this a

679

cross Canadian multi provincial car.

680

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

681

And there would be componentry from

Quebec, componentry from British Columbia,

682

maybe new componentry from the Atlantic

provinces, the prairie provinces that

683

we haven't even thought about yet.

684

But we do talk about in the report how

a Canadian propulsion system would be

685

novel and valuable to any project that

involves coming up with a Canadian car.

686

Michelle Samson: Yep.

687

Well, I think we've highlighted

a lot of the difficulties that

688

could come up in this process and

that it is a bit of a long shot.

689

What other difficulties

could this company face?

690

Greg Keenan: Well, I think

money is the big one.

691

We talk in the report about the

amount of money spent on R&D annually.

692

I think the world's largest 25 largest

automakers spent $10 billion a year on

693

average in research and development.

694

Now, that's global markets, most of

them, but that gives you a bit of an

695

indication of how expensive this could be.

696

So you know, there's gotta be a

financing partner in there somewhere.

697

I mean, we didn't say this in report, but

maybe it's Brookfield, with governments,

698

or maybe it's just governments.

699

I don't know.

700

That is a huge hurdle.

701

Michelle Samson: $10 billion with a B.

702

Greg Keenan: A year on R&D.

703

Michelle Samson: A year.

704

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

705

From what we can gather, some of the

other initiatives that are happening

706

in Turkey, in Mexico to try to

develop a domestic car manufacturer,

707

your cost of entry is $20 billion.

708

And the R&D money, but you've

also gotta stand up a plant, tool

709

up a plant, market the thing.

710

So $20 billion get in.

711

Michelle Samson: Wow.

712

Brendan Sweeney: Big hurdle.

713

Michelle Samson: Yeah.

714

Were there any other difficulties

we wanted to talk about?

715

Brendan Sweeney: No, I think we wanted to

talk about some of our strengths, though.

716

Michelle Samson: Yeah,

let's move to strengths!

717

Brendan Sweeney: I think that's

important and we came up with

718

two really important ones.

719

One makes a lot of sense

of where this fits.

720

And the other one, we don't know where

it fits, but let's let's think about it.

721

The first is automation.

722

We have some some great capabilities

and some great companies that house

723

a lot of those capabilities when

it comes to automation tooling.

724

Much of that automation now is You

know, just in Cambridge, Ontario alone,

725

Eclipse Automation recently repatriated,

and ATS which is probably the largest

726

industrial automation company in Canada.

727

What if either as part of this

exercise or what if one of the main

728

intentions of this exercise was not

to make the coolest car ever, but was

729

to make the coolest car factory ever?

730

And was to put our automation and

tooling and AI skills on display in

731

a factory and come up with novel and

innovative approaches to making a vehicle.

732

One of the reasons why, you know, in

addition to having the capabilities,

733

why this is important is because some

of the international automakers that

734

we work with in Canada have some,

at least some license to to improve

735

their production processes locally.

736

And where vehicle vehicle design and

decisions about production, they tend to

737

happen in Detroit, in Germany, in Japan.

738

And yeah, you know, frankly, some of

the process discussions and automation

739

discussions happen there too.

740

But some of them happen here.

741

Some of the discussions about how

you're gonna set up your assembly

742

plant, how you're gonna make the

vehicle, they happen locally.

743

And so maybe that's gonna

be an important part.

744

And that's where we can involve

existing Canadian domiciled companies

745

that are well known to many of us.

746

I mean, at the Auto Mayors in November,

we had a panel with three Three

747

leading Waterloo region companies,

ATS, and Eclipse, and with past

748

guest, Greta Cutulenco of Acerta

AI, talking about this is how we're

749

making vehicles moving forward.

750

So that's one of them.

751

The other one, it's what

we call the nuclear option.

752

We have incredible nuclear

capabilities in Canada.

753

We also have, and I'm glad Greg mentioned

Brookfield, we also have now kind of a

754

Canadian owned nuclear OEM that is the

result of Cameco and Brookfield coming

755

together with Westinghouse Nuclear.

756

So we have all sorts of

nuclear capabilities.

757

We're making investments in nuclear and

what we're not necessarily suggesting is

758

that we build a nuclear powered vehicle.

759

Yet.

760

Maybe one day.

761

But we are suggesting that we might

find value in bringing some of these

762

nuclear-focused companies into the

conversation given the intersections

763

between energy and mobility.

764

So these are in Ontario and in other

parts of the world, and in New Brunswick,

765

these are the companies, the nuclear

companies are ultimately responsible

766

increasingly for the source of energy

that is going to propel these vehicles,

767

that is going to fuel these vehicles.

768

So bringing them into the conversation, I

think would be really, really important.

769

So automation and nuclear,

putting those ideas on the

770

table, discuss away ecosystem.

771

Michelle Samson: It is really funny,

Brendan, that you mentioned nuclear

772

powered cars because way back in

middle school I actually did design

773

for a project, a nuclear powered

car, which I had called the Nuclauto.

774

I did not copyright that if

anybody wants to take it.

775

And I've gone back and forth through

my life thinking, was that a terrible

776

idea or was that an awesome idea?

777

And uh, maybe it just

happens to be awesome.

778

Brendan Sweeney: I like it.

779

Bring in some of the

nuclear companies, i.e.

780

Brookfield in on it too.

781

We're gonna need financing if we're

gonna do this and that financing is

782

probably gonna come from multiple

sources, but, you know, maybe we

783

start with the sources that have the

capability to do this at a grand scale.

784

Michelle Samson: Mm-hmm.

785

So if you're listening to this episode

and you know anybody who could contribute

786

to any part of the development of a

Canadian car, from concept to financing

787

to manufacturing to nuclear, any of the

above, share this episode with them.

788

We wanna drive innovation in this area.

789

And uh, like I said, Trillium

Network would love to talk.

790

Brendan Sweeney: And if you know

anyone who used to work at Brookfield,

791

but maybe has a different job now.

792

I mean, we want to talk.

793

We wanna talk to them too, so, yeah.

794

Michelle Samson: Definitely

send this episode to them.

795

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

796

Greg Keenan: We want those

persons to know about this anyway.

797

Michelle Samson: Let's see if we can get

this episode into those particular hands.

798

Brendan Sweeney: Minister

Champagne, he knows us.

799

He can help.

800

He can help.

801

Michelle Samson: Alright, any other

thoughts before we close this out?

802

Brendan Sweeney: Happy New Year

everybody, and really excited to see

803

what happens throughout the year.

804

It's gonna be an exciting one.

805

Michelle Samson: Making it in Ontario

is an initiative of the Trillium

806

Network for Advanced Manufacturing.

807

It is produced by Storied Places Media.