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A Real-Life Manufacturer Reacts to Season 10’s Takeaways
Episode 1419th December 2024 • Making it in Ontario • Trillium Network for Advanced Manufacturing
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For the season finale of Making it in Ontario, we’re getting feedback on the season’s top takeaways from a real-life advanced manufacturer who’s on the floor daily dealing with productivity, strategy, workforce, and trade challenges. What does he think of the ideas shared by our previous guests? Are they practical for someone running an SME? Our guest is Ben Whitney, the President of Armo Tool and Abuma Manufacturing out of London, Ontario, and the chair of the Trillium Network for Advanced Manufacturing’s board of directors. Ben also shares insights on running a family business, and his efforts to inspire the next generation to take over.

  • 00:42 Introduction of Episode and Ben Whitney
  • 05:22 Ben’s Journey to President of Armo Too and Abuma Manufacturing
  • 07:40 How Ben Navigated Crises
  • 09:17 Talent Strategy Today vs 2009
  • 12:42 Reaction to Jayson Myers’ University Programs for Manufacturing
  • 15:12 Reaction to Giles Gherson’s Sub-Scale Company Problem
  • 19:47 Advice For Inspiring the Next Generation to Take Over the Family Business
  • 21:19 Reaction to Michelle Sangster’s Advice For Building the Talent Pipeline
  • 25:46 Reaction to Jim Stanford’s Definition of a Good Job
  • 28:49 Reaction to Jean-Marc Leclerc and Michelle Sangster’s Advice on Leadership During Crises
  • 31:57 Reaction to Scott MacKenzie’s Intel About Ontario’s Forthcoming Battery Plants
  • 35:00 How Government Incentives Could Better Support Domestic Manufacturers
  • 38:15 Why Being Involved in the Manufacturing Ecosystem is Important to Ben

Find Out More About Armo Tool and Abuma Manufacturing

  • Armo Tool website: armotool.com
  • Abuma Manufacturing website: abuma.com

Find Out More About Trillium

About the Making it in Ontario Podcast

Making it in Ontario is your window into what's next in manufacturing. Ontario’s economy depends on manufacturing, but the latest research reveals concerning trends that could undermine the sector’s strength—if we don’t address them. Join us as we talk to CEOs and other leaders at the forefront of the sector about productivity, strategy, talent markets and career opportunities, and the role of manufacturing in a prosperous and sustainable future.

This podcast is an initiative of the Trillium Network for Advanced Manufacturing. It is produced by Storied Places Media.

Transcripts

Michelle Samson:

Welcome to Making it in Ontario, your window into what's next in

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Ontario's manufacturing sector from the

data driven researchers at the Trillium

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Network for Advanced Manufacturing.

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I'm Michelle Samson.

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Brendan Sweeney: And I'm Brendan Sweeney.

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Michelle Samson: Okay, Brendan, this is

our very last episode of a very successful

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tenth season of Making It in Ontario.

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Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, I mean,

it's been a great season.

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Qualitatively and qualitatively,

uh, it's been our most successful

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season yet in terms of listeners.

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Thank you listeners for listening.

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Welcome new listeners.

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And just in the quality

of guests, just unreal.

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Michelle Samson: Incredible guests.

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So last week, we kind of had a "Wrapped"

episode where we took some highlights from

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conversations with each of those guests.

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And then we thought we'd do one more

episode this season with a bit of

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reaction to those highlights, right?

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Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, we did think,

hey, you know, it'd be fun to take

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some of those highlights, to take some

of those lessons, uh, that we derived

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from some of our, prominent guests

and reality check them and hear what,

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you know, a real life, medium sized,

multi generation manufacturer in the

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London region thought about them and

what that meant to someone who's, you

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know, actually out there running two

factories in the London area today.

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Michelle Samson: Yeah, our guest this

week is Ben Whitney, who is someone

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very familiar to and with the Trillium

Network for Advanced Manufacturing.

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Brendan Sweeney: So Ben Whitney, uh,

he is the president of Armo Tool on

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one side of London, Abuma Manufacturing

on the other side of London.

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They do a lot of tool, die, metal fab

for the automotive industry, but as

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he'll tell you, it's automotive plus.

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And Ben has been the chair of

the Trillium Network's board.

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since I've been the Managing Director.

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He took over as Chair from Carol

Stevenson when I took over as

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Managing Director from Paul Boothe.

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Uh, he's been part of the board

from the get go,:

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So he's been along for the ride the

whole time, and we've got to know each

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other really, really well, and we've

had some successes and challenges

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and some laughs along the way.

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And you know what really is distinct,

is unique about Ben is just how involved

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he is in what we call this advanced

manufacturing ecosystem in Ontario.

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He's involved, Fanshawe, Trillium, OG100,

CME, Uh, London Economic Development.

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He's just involved, um, you

know, everywhere he can be and

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I think that's really important.

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Michelle Samson: Yeah, he's got a really

broad perspective on top of being a

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manufacturer who is down in the trenches.

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So if anyone could really comment

on whether these insights, these

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recommendations are practical

for small and medium sized

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manufacturers, it's definitely him.

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Brendan Sweeney: One day he's

walking, you know, he's on the

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shop floor, with his staff.

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The next day he's touring a premier

or a minister through his plant.

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You know, the next day he's in

some of the kind of higher level

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meetings with other stakeholders from

manufacturing or from across the economy.

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And he'll tell us a bit more

about that in the podcast.

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Michelle Samson: Mm hmm.

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And I really enjoyed the parts of our

interview that were about the nature of

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his business being a family business.

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Um, third generation, right?

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Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, third generation.

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And so there are some of

these companies out there.

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Maybe not as many as there used to

be and getting his perspective on it.

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what that means, the potential

transitions from this generation to the

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next, and so we'll learn more about that.

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And it gives us some ideas, maybe

that'd be a good feature, um, to have a

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couple multi generation, third, fourth,

even if there's any fifth generation

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manufacturers out there that are

interested in coming, telling their

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story would be really interesting.

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And succession planning.

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Anyone want to talk about family

succession planning on the podcast?

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Cause I'm sure there's an audience

that wants to hear about that.

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Michelle Samson: That sounds

like a really great idea.

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And, uh, as a teaser, a small teaser

for that potential future episode,

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uh, Ben had some really great insights

about inspiring the next generation

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to pick up the baton, so to speak.

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Brendan Sweeney: This is a great

episode and we've got more great

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episodes coming at you in 2025.

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We're going to try to top this season.

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It's going to be hard, but I think a

couple of our first guests are going

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to get some, uh, some ears and some

eyeballs and yeah, we're really excited,

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um, to be able to tell you what's

happening in:

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to wait until 2025 to tell you that.

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Michelle Samson: Mm hmm, and we don't

have an official launch date for Season

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11 just yet, but if you subscribe to

Making It Ontario on Spotify or Apple

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or wherever you listen to your podcasts,

then you can make sure that you get

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that first episode whenever it drops.

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Brendan Sweeney: Ben,

welcome to the podcast.

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Ben Whitney: Thanks, Brendan.

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Brendan Sweeney: So tell us a bit

about your journey as a real life

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manufacturing SME, in and around London,

Ontario, Armo Tool, Abuma Manufacturing.

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How did you get here?

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What are you up to these days?

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Um, and what's good?

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Ben Whitney: So I have the privilege of

running my family's automation, tooling,

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stamping die business, Armo Tool, which

founded by my grandfather in:

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And then my dad joined the business the

next year when he came out of high school.

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I have a engineering degree.

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My dad tried to make it so it wasn't an

obvious fit that I had to come and work

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in the family business, although I had

already worked there a couple of summers.

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So, shortly after graduation, I did work

for Lafarge for six months, but then I

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came back to work for the family company.

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And, along the way, I was a

junior mechanical designer, a

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PLC programmer, project manager.

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I ran our dye design

department for a while.

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Then I was the general manager.

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And then, um, in 2008, my dad

retired and then I was president.

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And, uh, you know, for people who

were in manufacturing in:

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2009 it a very difficult time.

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And I remember my dad saying to

me, You know, we never lost money

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when I was president, after I'd

been president for a year, so it's

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been 15 years, I'm almost over it.

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Then we, we grew particularly the

automation part of our business, and

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by 2017 we were looking for more space,

and we looked at a couple of buildings,

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and eventually, had a really amazing

opportunity, got introduced to a fellow

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who had started a business called Abuma.

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And was running a smaller fabrication

business, Abuma, inside this large

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industrial facility, twice as big as

the building that Armo was in, even

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though Armo's sales would have been

like seven times as much as Abuma's.

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So what we did is we bought Abuma, both

the building and the business, and we

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moved about half of Armo's personnel over

the next two years into that building.

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So we have Abuma Fabrication and Armo's

automation business in our larger

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building and, our tool and die facility.

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Both shops are here in London, Ontario.

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Brendan Sweeney: Manufacturing in Ontario

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that, I mean nothing short of a crisis.

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And you had a particular experience

there and developed a particular

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strategy that at the time sounded a

bit risky but has paid off in spades.

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Ben Whitney: My strategy

was really around advanced

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manufacturing and diversification.

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We always had a strategy

of saying yes to customers.

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And what that means to us is we start

making consumable tooling for a plant

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that's here in Southwestern Ontario.

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And then they say, "Hey, would you like

to build an automated machine for us?

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We've got a problem we want to solve."

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Oh yeah, that's, that's a

hundred percent what we do.

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And, uh, and then we take on that job.

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If things go well, we get to the attention

of corporate or somebody at the customer

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side gets transferred to a plant in the U.

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S.

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or to Mexico or to China and we try and

follow those leads and yeah, of course, we

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want to install that machine in Tennessee.

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Of course, we want to come down

and do support in Saltillo.

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Partly you can illustrate

it by what we don't do.

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I was talking to a local small

tool shop in like:

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were closing and having an auction.

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And the owner said to me, well, you know,

we had one customer that was 90 percent of

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our business and they're moving to the U.

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S., so I guess that's it.

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So we kind of do the opposite of that.

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We have a "Automotive And" strategy.

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So it's not instead of automotive,

but it's just recognizing that it's

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going to take more than that to support

the growth that we want to have.

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Brendan Sweeney: And, and your talent

strategy, in an industry that the

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value add is synonymous with talent.

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Could you tell us a bit about that

and how that, what you were doing in

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2009 versus what you're doing today?

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Ben Whitney: You're completely right.

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What we're doing is selling skilled labor,

whether that's the designer clicking away

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with their mouse or whether it's tool

makers or millwrights on the shop floor.

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So we try and create a very

pleasant work environment.

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You know, we're flexible on times.

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We have air conditioning throughout

the manufacturing facilities.

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We want it to feel like a family business.

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We want it to be a family business.

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So we have very low turnover on people

who have more than five years in.

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And now we focus on getting more

young people to join the business.

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You know, there was a time before

COVID, there wasn't a lot of interest

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in the skilled trades from Canadian

young people or their parents.

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That's starting to turn now, where the

high schools are calling us and looking

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for co op placements and things like that.

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We have been most successful when

we meet people as young as possible.

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You know, there's the saying that

you should hire for fit, not skills.

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That's been successful for us.

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It takes longer, especially when you're

hiring young people, but try and have

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a workplace that's attractive to them.

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So, for instance, in our grinding

room, equipment is mostly the same

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as it was 25 years ago, and there

are some pretty advanced CNC grinding

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machines, but we really couldn't see

that we particularly needed them.

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We went ahead and bought one last

year anyways, partly to make the

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grinding room sexier to new recruits,

and also believing that with advanced

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manufacturing, you can kind of add some

capabilities that you're not sure how

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you're going to use them, but you usually

find a way to use them or you start to

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be able to win work that you couldn't

do before without that new capability.

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And right beside a strategy to recruit

young people is, you know, a good

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referral program because your current

team members are your best source of new

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ones and then also recognizing that you

got to recruit newcomer talent and you

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got to be a welcoming workplace for them.

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Which is pretty new for us.

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We're in kind of rural southwestern

Ontario, outside London is our tool

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and die shop, and I guess we've

always welcomed immigrants, the

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difference is what countries they're

coming from, right, over time.

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And we've done a good job of that,

you know, it's more than just

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calling your Christmas party a

holiday party, but, you know, but

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it starts with those little signals.

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Brendan Sweeney: Let's get into our,

uh, the meat of today's episode.

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Last week on Making It in Ontario,

listeners would have heard some

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highlights from this season from, you

know, a number of people who are leaders

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in this space, whether it's CEOs of

vehicle assemblers or people who have

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played an important role in economic

development and research in the ecosystem.

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Some of them we kind of asked,

What would you change if you

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could change one thing to put

manufacturing on a better trajectory?

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Um, you know, others we just kind

of, through our conversations, got to

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some of the major issues of the day.

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And a lot of them were related

to workforce, but not all.

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And your colleague and mine and

fellow board member Jay Myers, CEO

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of NGen, when we asked him the magic

wand question, you know, "What one

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thing would you like to see happen?"

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He said he would like to see

more manufacturing training at

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universities for manufacturing

leaders, for manufacturing strategists.

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And so he said that we don't

really have that in Ontario.

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We have great universities.

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We have great colleges, but

they're not teaching people how

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to be manufacturers and leaders

specifically in manufacturing, which

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requires a really specific skill set.

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Agree or disagree?

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Do you think there's value in

seeing something like that?

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Or is there, does that exist somewhere?

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And maybe Jay just wasn't aware.

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Have you seen this in the past?

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How would that look?

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How would that help your business?

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Ben Whitney: You know, I think that's

a very insightful thing to say.

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When I was working for my dad for

a few years, we started talking

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about, well, should I go do an MBA?

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And he was pretty negative about the idea

because he hadn't liked some of the MBA

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young guys that he had interacted with.

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And I ended up taking a master's degree

in engineering, but I took all the

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business stream courses that I could,

and they were taught by MBA profs,

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and I, and I got a bunch of skills

from that that were super valuable.

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So I see what Jay's talking

about there even in my own life.

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And then my oldest son is in business

school right now at McMaster, and

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he's in third year, and I think his

classmates want to be in finance

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and they want to be in M&A and

they want to be Bay Street guys.

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And I think there's an operation stream,

but I'm not sure it's attracting the best

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and brightest, which is what we need.

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And I'm not sure we're telling

the story of how exciting the

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careers are in manufacturing.

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So we could do better, right?

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We could do better there.

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In Ontario, there's an awful lot of 50

person advanced manufacturers with a niche

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product or a niche process, but are the

owners and managers of those companies

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looking up and understanding the broader

framework and what they could do and

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what it would take for them to double?

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It's pretty easy to be busy

in the business instead of

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working on the business.

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Brendan Sweeney: Funny that you

mentioned that, you know, are

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they really thinking about, well,

how do we double the business?

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How do we grow the business?

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How do we grow our markets?

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And Giles Gerson, who is now the

CEO of the Toronto Region Board

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of Trade, but he was a friend and

supporter of Trillium for a long time

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in his role as the Deputy Minister

of the Ontario Ministry of Economic

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Development, Job Creation and Trade.

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Ben Whitney: Super smart

people in government.

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Another thing that is a plus.

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Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, and, and it's

benefited us, uh, significantly.

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We had a lot of conversations about that

subscale problem, about the challenge

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in Ontario that we have a lot of great

companies that have 50 people, that

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have 80 people, that have 110 people,

but we have a hard time growing them to

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become companies that have 500 people,

800 people that have a headquarters in

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London or Windsor or Toronto and then

operations across the globe and you

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know, maybe all the other fun stuff

that comes with that headquarters,

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you know, like industrial R&D.

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So, Giles likened it to a Christmas

tree farm where we grow these, you

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know, up until six feet tall, we grow

these great trees, cut them down,

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harvest them, start all over again.

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Um, you are around 200 people now?

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Ben Whitney: That's right.

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Brendan Sweeney: And exporting to...

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Ben Whitney: U.

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S.

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and Mexico, probably 40

percent of sales is exports.

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Brendan Sweeney: Is there an interest in

taking things from 200 people and, you

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know, the revenue associated with that

to 300 people, 400 people, 500 people?

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Um, what are the pros of that?

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What are the cons of that?

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What exists in Ontario

to help you do that?

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Um, but what barriers exist to doing

that, or to doing that in Ontario, and

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not getting to a point where you say,

oh great, well now we have to move

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to Detroit or Columbus or Chicago.

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Ben Whitney: Hmm.

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Well, I'll tell you first, the company

that we bought, Abuma, in:

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owner, smarter guy than me, but more

of an inventor than a business guy, uh,

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I think he would agree, and he didn't

want to go bigger than X people because

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that would have meant you have to have

a joint health and safety committee.

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And he didn't want to go bigger

because you would have had to

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do this and you would have paid

different taxes and whatever.

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Like, posters on the wall of

his office about staying small.

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And for really relatively

inconsequential reasons, right?

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But they were bending the whole way

that he thought about his business

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and what was the right size.

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And at the same time, he was in a

hundred thousand square foot building.

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You know, Armo would have been,

we were in a 40, 000 square foot

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building and we had five times his

workforce in half the building.

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So, that's unfortunate and I don't

know whether that's about the person

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or about how we structure our, our

legislation and rules and taxes.

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I think in Canada there's a little

bit of like, you can do well,

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but not too well, because it's

offensive to do really, really well.

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And I don't know how you

alter that story, right?

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It's okay to do well and donate

some money to the hospital, but,

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oh, you donated a hundred million

dollars to the hospital, oh, that's,

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hmm, I don't know if I like that.

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And maybe that's part of the

Christmas tree farm environment.

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It's just plain hard to do it in

Canada, because the market is small.

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You know, if you're the best tool and

die shop in New York State, you're

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probably as big or bigger than we are.

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And so, if we're the best in Canada,

which I'm not saying that we are, there's

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some, you know, fabulous, humongous

companies, but it's hard to grow to a

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global scale, like, you know, for example,

ATS did, that's pretty hard to do.

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And then, it's also important for these

family businesses that the successors

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are interested in working there.

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Lots of people in my kid's

generation where they, you know,

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they all want to be dentists.

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They don't want to go

and run the tool shop.

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And a little bit, I think it's

because mom and dad came home and

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told too many horror stories about

the tool shop and how hard it was.

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But they didn't tell enough stories

about, but I can knock off early on

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a Friday, and we're making more money

than we would make as a dentist.

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And we're, you know, have the

freedom to chart our own path.

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I know my daughter has said, Oh,

I never want to go into business.

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Um, too many stories from

dad, and my wife was running a

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business as well for a while.

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You know, it's just too many stories.

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Brendan Sweeney: As the owner of a

family business, what advice would you

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give to other owners that are in this

kind of succession journey and that

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they're trying to compel or even inspire

other family members to get interested

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in getting involved in the business or

even taking the business over one day?

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Ben Whitney: I think taking them to

the business when they're young even

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if it's after hours and letting them

sit on a forklift and point to the

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squishing machine and, which is what

my kids call the press and, you know,

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be around it a bit so that they can

picture it a little bit is important.

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And depending on the age and

what's appropriate, talking

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about the rewards that are there.

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I was talking to a guy who wanted to

sell his small stamping dye business,

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:

and one of his sons was working there on

the floor and his other son is a teacher.

335

:

And he's like, yeah, neither one of

them want to take over the business.

336

:

And he was kind of showing me the numbers.

337

:

I'm like, have you told either one of

them that you're making $2 million a year?

338

:

Cause I think that could

be inspirational to them.

339

:

He's like, oh no, so they only see the

money that you're spending, which in

340

:

his case I think was relatively modest.

341

:

They don't understand the

scale of the business.

342

:

And then the other thing is, well, maybe

you're doing it all, but doesn't mean

343

:

the next generation has to do it all.

344

:

You start to bring in a professional

manager who's working with you and taking

345

:

a bunch of the stress of the things

that you're not good at, and then that,

346

:

that leaves a much easier, um, next

step succession plan for your children.

347

:

Michelle Samson: You know, I

feel this is a good transition

348

:

to Michelle Sangster's highlight.

349

:

Michelle Sangster from Eclipse,

a division of Accenture.

350

:

She talked about how, you know,

manufacturers, in order to build that

351

:

pipeline, need to do a better job of

showing what working in manufacturing

352

:

really is, you know, at all levels,

what innovation in manufacturing looks

353

:

like, especially where sort of this

younger generation is really influenced

354

:

by what they see on social media,

they see tech, they see all of these

355

:

things, but they're not getting that

insight into all of the really cool

356

:

things that happen within manufacturing.

357

:

So yeah, what are your thoughts on that

and how manufacturers could maybe do a

358

:

better job of showing what these jobs

look like and how interesting they can be?

359

:

Ben Whitney: Yeah, I always try

and position myself as an advanced

360

:

manufacturer to kind of draw a line there.

361

:

Um, we sponsor high school robotics

teams, and then we demand that the

362

:

teams tour the shop with their parents

before we give them the money so that

363

:

they see what advanced manufacturing

looks like in the real world.

364

:

We participate with some of

the teacher organizations.

365

:

So then for the last couple of years,

uh, busloads of guidance counselors

366

:

and, uh, teachers have toured the shop

so that when they're thinking about

367

:

whether Susie would enjoy a job in

the skilled trades, then they have

368

:

a better idea of what that means.

369

:

And then we reach out to the high

school shop teachers, um, to try

370

:

and make sure that they know that if

they have a promising kid, even if

371

:

somebody told them, oh, Armo's full.

372

:

If you have a promising

person, we'll find a spot.

373

:

That's gotten us some really great

young people join the business.

374

:

So I saw a video on LinkedIn of a guy

running a milling machine and it was

375

:

a 70 year old milling machine and he's

working on an engine, he's got no safety

376

:

glasses on, he's got flip flops on and

there's a cat lying under the machine

377

:

that aluminum chips are landing a little

bit on this cat and comments are starting

378

:

up with, "oh, what a craftsman and how

great it is to see this level of like

379

:

doing that on this machine" kind of thing.

380

:

And I'm just like, no wonder we can't get

anybody interested in joining the trade.

381

:

This is what we're actually celebrating?

382

:

What a nightmare.

383

:

But I didn't have the guts to put it

in the comments because I was afraid

384

:

of getting eaten alive by people.

385

:

That's a great hobby project, you

know, and the video is probably

386

:

50 years old, but that is not what

manufacturing looks like, and it does

387

:

us a disservice to show people that.

388

:

Brendan Sweeney: Do some of your skilled

trades staff have really nice vehicles?

389

:

Ben Whitney: Yeah, well, there's kind

of a split between young guys with

390

:

new F 150s and older people with,

uh, the cheapest van that they can

391

:

get, I guess, like any workplace.

392

:

One of our project managers drives

the Vamborghini, as he calls it.

393

:

Brendan Sweeney: Maybe you show those,

uh, those high school students in the

394

:

robotics competitions the F-150s that

the younger, uh, trades people can...

395

:

Ben Whitney: Yeah, those rewards.

396

:

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

397

:

See if they're nicer than their

parents' vehicles, as a means to

398

:

convince them that, hey, maybe

this is the career choice for you.

399

:

Ben Whitney: That's a good point.

400

:

You know, the financial rewards are there.

401

:

And I remember Ontario ran that

advertising campaign where they had

402

:

like the, the plates on the Porsche

that said plumber and things like that.

403

:

Um, as part of our outreach, whenever

we're touring teachers or young people,

404

:

I always get some of our tour guides

to be people who are, you know, 22 and

405

:

younger, and when we're stopping to

talk to people on the shop floor, do I

406

:

look for those young people too and have

them share their educational journeys.

407

:

Because quite often it's like, "I

went to school for this, and then I

408

:

tried it, and I didn't like it, and

then I went and worked over here,

409

:

and I didn't like that either, and

then, you know, now I'm a electrician,

410

:

industrial electrician apprentice."

411

:

So it's pretty normal to

not get it exactly right.

412

:

I'm actually a geological engineer,

is my undergrad degree so, you know,

413

:

you kind of get there over time.

414

:

But yeah, trying to meet people where

they're at, and talk to them about why

415

:

this could be a good career for them.

416

:

You know, people think that they

would rather be a roofer than be

417

:

a millwright because they don't

want to work inside all day.

418

:

Well, after a couple of winters,

I think that gets kind of old.

419

:

And, uh, our best recruiting

season is August when the air

420

:

conditioning feels ever so good.

421

:

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

422

:

After, after a couple, uh, Elgin

County summers up on the roof...

423

:

Ben Whitney: That's right.

424

:

Brendan Sweeney: We talked a bunch with

Jim Stanford about what makes a good job.

425

:

And, certainly, compensation, I mean,

you can't get around compensation.

426

:

You know, it takes a lot of

other nice to haves to make up

427

:

for a job that pays $18 an hour.

428

:

But, you know, you're not paying

tradespeople $18 an hour, you're

429

:

paying them enough so they can afford

an F 150 or something cool like that.

430

:

But what else, in your

opinion, makes a good job?

431

:

What makes a good career, uh,

in addition to compensation?

432

:

Ben Whitney: Well, one of our

competitors for labor is certainly

433

:

production factories, right?

434

:

And I'm not saying that those are not

good jobs, but what we have to offer,

435

:

because we can't pay quite as much as

those people can, what we have to offer

436

:

is variety and agency, and continuous

learning, and flexibility on time.

437

:

We don't have midnight shift.

438

:

We barely have afternoon shift

and almost everybody who is

439

:

on it is on it permanently.

440

:

Um, so a lot of lifestyle stuff.

441

:

And, you know, we expect more from people

than just punching a clock and kind of

442

:

doing the same thing over and over again.

443

:

As a job shop we're doing new stuff

all the time which I think is, for me

444

:

is really interesting and exciting.

445

:

And we hardly lose anybody

once once they've been a part

446

:

of our team for a few years.

447

:

We all tend to grow our lifestyle

to the money that we have, right?

448

:

But at the end of the day, whether

you have the platinum F-150 or

449

:

the LTF-150 doesn't really, uh,

change your life all that much.

450

:

But whether you're the person who

goes underneath the, the grease

451

:

conveyor and tightens the bolts every

Monday, or whether you're the person

452

:

who's figuring out how to solve a

problem is, is pretty impactful.

453

:

Brendan Sweeney: The Shelby F 150

will change your life, but there's

454

:

only like 200 of those made a year.

455

:

Anyway, um, Ben, do you

want to unpack agency?

456

:

You know, what does that mean to you?

457

:

What does that mean at Armo and at Abuma?

458

:

And does that kind of cut both

ways that you're going to give

459

:

someone agency, you're going to

give someone some latitude, some

460

:

responsibility, but at the same time,

that means they've got work to do.

461

:

Ben Whitney: Uh, yes, I remember hiring

a machinist and a mid career fella and

462

:

him telling me, you know, at the shop

that I am working at today, there is

463

:

somebody standing 20 feet away watching

what I'm doing and if I step away from my

464

:

machine, possibly throwing something at

me and definitely screaming at me if I

465

:

scrap something or something goes wrong.

466

:

Um, and I said to him, well,

that won't happen here.

467

:

But just a caution, if you need

those things to be successful,

468

:

you'll just end up getting let go.

469

:

Because we'll just talk to you once

or twice about how you're not meeting

470

:

our needs and then we'll let you go.

471

:

It just won't work out.

472

:

Sometimes, um, people who come from

terrible places really appreciate

473

:

what we offer, but they can't

work productively without some of

474

:

those, uh, styles of management.

475

:

Brendan Sweeney: Styles of

management, styles of leadership.

476

:

We had some great conversations with

Michelle Sangster about leadership,

477

:

and with Jean Marc Leclerc, uh, the

CEO of Honda, about leadership and

478

:

especially about leadership during crises.

479

:

And, my guess is that

you probably had some

480

:

introductions

481

:

Brendan Sweeney: to leadership

during crises in:

482

:

some more seasoned experience with

leadership during crises in:

483

:

Uh, I think the two words that, if

you put Michelle Sangster and Jean

484

:

Marc Leclerc in a room and they

had that conversation together,

485

:

transparency with your employees,

with your customers, with suppliers.

486

:

And authenticity, and to some degree

just, you know, being your authentic self.

487

:

Maybe it's your authentic self at work.

488

:

Um, but transparency,

authenticity were their tips.

489

:

Michelle Samson, anything else from those

conversations that stood out to you?

490

:

Michelle Samson: No, I think

those two words were bang on.

491

:

Brendan Sweeney: Your thoughts, Ben.

492

:

Ben Whitney: I would probably

choose empathy and authenticity.

493

:

Sometimes, I wouldn't care to be quite

so transparent to my customers, um,

494

:

it's sort of like a duck, you look

calm on the surface and swim like hell

495

:

underneath, and you don't necessarily

want to transmit to everyone that

496

:

you're paddling that hard underneath.

497

:

But I always make the assumption that

people are trying to do their best,

498

:

that they want to do their best, that

they want to succeed for themselves

499

:

and for the, um, organization.

500

:

And so if something weird is happening

with a person, then I try and start

501

:

from there, because so much of our

lives doesn't happen at work, right?

502

:

So many of the stressors are

happening outside of that.

503

:

And then, yeah, authenticity for sure.

504

:

I think that's one of my strengths and

part of why people trust us, and...

505

:

communication is always

not good enough, right?

506

:

It's never, it's never sufficient.

507

:

But if people trust you, then when they

see the company do something strange

508

:

or, or foolish, then at least they

trust that from someone's desk, that

509

:

it seemed like a good idea or that, or

that things are going to turn out well.

510

:

Or, or at least they come and talk to me

and go, Ben, did we really just tear down

511

:

this internal shop office and then five

feet over from there we built these walls?

512

:

Like, did we really just do that?

513

:

Okay, here's why that seemed

to make sense at the time.

514

:

Brendan Sweeney: If there was one

other description of your leadership

515

:

style during COVID as the leader of two

companies, where would you go with that?

516

:

Ben Whitney: Well, we definitely

overcommunicated during COVID and had

517

:

empathy for people because of course,

some people's stress level went crazy and

518

:

other people thought it was just a cold.

519

:

And, it was a crazy time.

520

:

Um, and not getting

entrenched in a decision.

521

:

Like I remember telling a guy.

522

:

You know, you can't work from

home 100 percent and then like

523

:

two days later, we sent 20 people

home to work from home, right?

524

:

So just being willing to take in new

information and, uh, and, and being agile.

525

:

Brendan Sweeney: Now, uh, the big news

over the past couple years in southern

526

:

Ontario and especially in the London

region, but also in Windsor, in Simcoe

527

:

County, in Montreal, battery plants are

coming and we had a great conversation

528

:

with Scott McKenzie of Toyota,

another Trillium Network board member.

529

:

There's a theme here, isn't there, about

the the coming EV battery plants and

530

:

about his experience seeing Toyota's

battery plant in Japan and he was

531

:

pretty clear that life in an EV battery

plant is nothing like life in a vehicle

532

:

production facility, in an assembly plant.

533

:

Um, and it's, you know, some, weird

convergence of electronics manufacturing

534

:

and chemical manufacturing and if

we get it into our heads that we're

535

:

just going to take people from

assembly plants and pop them over

536

:

into battery plants, that's, that's

probably not how it's going to work.

537

:

And then, I mean, there's just

other ripple effects throughout the

538

:

manufacturing sector when it comes to

these massive new investments, some

539

:

of them, you know, Volkswagen, Honda,

potentially the largest manufacturing

540

:

investments in Ontario ever.

541

:

From your vantage point, from

your perspective, what do the

542

:

new battery plants mean to you

and to manufacturing in Ontario?

543

:

Ben Whitney: So I support these

battery plants and I think they're a

544

:

very good thing, but barely for me.

545

:

The truth is that these battery

plants are going to be filled with

546

:

equipment that comes from offshore.

547

:

And because they're so specialized that

their, that speciality doesn't exist,

548

:

that expertise doesn't exist here, and

they're going to be twinned from plants

549

:

that have already been built or are

being built other places, and they're

550

:

not going to take equipment risk by

developing new equipment suppliers.

551

:

And then they're going to start hiring

and they're going to hire skilled labor,

552

:

and that's going to be challenging for me.

553

:

At the same time, you know, it's going to

be good for the local economy, but I don't

554

:

think it's particularly good for me as

a automation company in London, Ontario.

555

:

Brendan Sweeney: If we know that now

and we've got three years ahead of

556

:

us to prepare, how do we make sure

either it is good for you, um, in

557

:

the short term, medium term, long

term, or that it's at least neutral?

558

:

Ben Whitney: Well, we need to work hard

with the battery plants to train people

559

:

to do the jobs that they want so that

they've got a pipeline of people who

560

:

were unemployed or being up skilled

and instead of them trying to hire,

561

:

you know, mid career people who have

good jobs, who are working for me.

562

:

And I see that, uh, Volkswagen

Power Co is meeting with the

563

:

college and the university here

and, and working on those things.

564

:

So I hope that those things are

going to be in place and come online.

565

:

You know, when the government

is handing out money, they could

566

:

push harder that, well, this money

has to be spent in Ontario, at

567

:

least for some of the equipment.

568

:

And I'm not talking about the plant build,

because of course you get that anyways,

569

:

but, if the needle is that plant's

going to be 30 percent built in Ontario,

570

:

what does it take to move it to 40%?

571

:

You know, Ontarians are investing a lot

of money, so that would be my angle.

572

:

I mean, we're starting to learn a

little bit about the nuclear industry.

573

:

EDC is loaning a huge amount of

money to Romania to build nuclear

574

:

reactors that are CANDU reactors.

575

:

All of that loan has to be spent

in Canada is my understanding.

576

:

Brendan Sweeney: Oh, wow.

577

:

Ben Whitney: So we'll finance

your nuclear reactor, but it's

578

:

going to be built in Canada.

579

:

If there's going to be a hundred million

dollars of machines come from South

580

:

Korea or from China to go into one of

these battery plants, if the incentives

581

:

were there such that right back to those

guys who have the intellectual property,

582

:

it was like, yeah, but you need to

spend 10 percent of that in Ontario.

583

:

Then they would look through their

bill of materials and go, okay,

584

:

these are all the standard parts.

585

:

We're going to have

those built in Ontario.

586

:

At least that would be something.

587

:

Michelle Samson: I think this is a

good transition to our next clip with

588

:

Scott, which was about the role of

government and policymakers and you

589

:

know, how they can be, maybe doing a

better job, if you want to use that term,

590

:

Ben Whitney: Even better job.

591

:

Michelle Samson: Even better job of

supporting manufacturers when they're

592

:

making these kinds of decisions and

building these kinds of policies.

593

:

So we asked Scott if he could

tell the policy makers anything,

594

:

you know, what would he tell them?

595

:

And, uh, he said that, you know,

they really just need to talk

596

:

to manufacturers and listen.

597

:

That you guys are the experts in

what you do, and also that, uh,

598

:

a great way to do that is to come

and see and to take those tours.

599

:

So thoughts on that if, uh, you agree with

him or if you would add anything else?

600

:

Ben Whitney: Well, I've had

quite a few politicians, uh,

601

:

through our shop over the years.

602

:

Kathleen Wynne ran the buttons

on our big stamping press and

603

:

brought it around one time.

604

:

And I'm pretty sure that was

outside of her comfort zone.

605

:

We invite them cause we want

to show them that advanced

606

:

manufacturing is worth saving.

607

:

I hate it when you read about this sort

of, ivory tower bubble of like, "Well,

608

:

manufacturing's in the past and what we

need to do is focus on these other jobs."

609

:

So we try and show them what advanced

manufacturing is and show them how

610

:

smart our workers are and how good

the work that we're doing is, that

611

:

it is world class manufacturing

happening here in London, Ontario.

612

:

Um, of course, I haven't read the

agreement for how some of these

613

:

big grants have happened with the

battery plants, but I'm glad to hear

614

:

that some of it is, "Well, you get

this many dollars, but only if you

615

:

produce this many batteries", right?

616

:

So if conditions change and the ramp up

is slower, then it affects their money.

617

:

But I would have liked to see more

encouragement to spend that money locally.

618

:

And on the stuff that

was not obvious, right?

619

:

You know, put a bit more of a lever

into, "Okay, well, to get this

620

:

money, then half of the equipment

would have to be sourced in Canada."

621

:

And they'll freak out and tell you,

"Well, we absolutely cannot do that."

622

:

And then work towards a number that

will be difficult, but possible.

623

:

Brendan Sweeney: Last question.

624

:

You know, we talk about the ecosystem

a lot, where you have manufacturers,

625

:

you have government, and you have

Fanshawe, and Western, and NGen, and

626

:

the Trillium Network, and CME, and EMC.

627

:

And you're someone who is running two

factories, but you're involved in all

628

:

manner of organizations, and in hosting

ministers and premiers to come through.

629

:

Why is it important for you as a small

manufacturer, as the leader owner

630

:

of a small manufacturing company,

to be involved in the ecosystem and

631

:

to make sure that, you're on the

agenda when politicians are nearby

632

:

or that you're on the, you know,

you're part of what Fanshawe's doing,

633

:

you're part of what Trillium's doing?

634

:

It's not unique, but it's

not as common as you think.

635

:

Why is it important?

636

:

Ben Whitney: Wow, you know, I learned

so much from you, Brendan, and from

637

:

the other people that I'm around, and

the chance to be around people who

638

:

are running really big companies and

customers of ours and, and what other

639

:

people in the ecosystem are thinking.

640

:

And really, we're relying on

Fanshawe turning out good students.

641

:

We're relying on, you know, the

work that Trillium does making

642

:

manufacturing a priority for Ontario.

643

:

So I'm aware of the importance of these

other stakeholders in our success.

644

:

And also, you know, I'm blessed that

we're have the scale and the team that

645

:

I don't have to quote jobs myself much

anymore or, or make those decisions.

646

:

And actually by spending a bit of

my time doing some things that I'm

647

:

well suited to, then it lets some

other people blossom on our team and

648

:

take accountability and the reins.

649

:

Selfishly, I enjoy

showing people what we do.

650

:

When you bring somebody through the

shop, and they're excited, and then

651

:

you reflect that excitement back

into your own team who, we all get

652

:

jaded in the work that we do, right?

653

:

So when somebody goes, I have been in

a lot of places and I have never seen

654

:

somebody do that or a shop that's so clean

or such a variety of work or such a, you

655

:

know, a diverse and exciting workforce.

656

:

That keeps me going too.

657

:

Brendan Sweeney: Great, um, any

parting words for:

658

:

know, your journey, our journey,

the journey, for our listeners.

659

:

Ben Whitney: Yeah, I would say

that first of all there's always

660

:

challenges in 2024 it feels like

maybe there's unique challenges.

661

:

But in 2009, I would go to meetings in

the U.S where they were talking about

662

:

automotive and the forecast for Canada

was to go to zero for car assembly,

663

:

and quite condescendingly, you should

just accept that you're going to zero,

664

:

because Michigan, the southern states,

and Mexico is going to be where car

665

:

assembly is, and you guys are screwed.

666

:

Really discouraging.

667

:

And if it wasn't for a few visionary

people, some of them very involved

668

:

with Trillium, like Paul Boothe and Ray

Tanguay, and people in government, like

669

:

Doug Ford, believing that that didn't

have to be the case, I think we'd have

670

:

very little automotive left in Ontario.

671

:

So, we've had challenges before.

672

:

Brendan Sweeney: Ben, that was great.

673

:

Thank you.

674

:

Ben Whitney: Thanks guys.

675

:

Michelle Samson: New episodes of Making

it in Ontario are published weekly.

676

:

Follow us now on Apple Podcasts or

Spotify to make sure you don't miss any.

677

:

Making it in Ontario is an

initiative of the Trillium Network

678

:

for Advanced Manufacturing.

679

:

It is produced by Storied Places Media.

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13. Making it in Ontario “Wrapped”
00:18:26
12. Mythbusting Automotive Trade Stats
00:17:57
11. Maximizing Manufacturing Productivity in Toronto and Beyond
00:48:53
10. Eclipse Automation’s Incredible Growth With Accenture
00:44:44
9. Honda Canada on Canada’s Biggest Manufacturing Investment (Yet)
00:41:27
8. Getting Strategic About Trade, Investment, and Productivity
00:46:40
7. Advanced Manufacturing and the Future of Work
00:45:37
6. A Modernized Strategy to Transform Manufacturing in Ontario
00:25:12
5. Solving Canada's “Productivity Problem”
00:27:57
4. Toyota Canada on Electrification, Labour Markets, and Strategy
00:47:03
3. Hot Off the Press: New Data on Diversity in Manufacturing
00:11:04
2. NGen: Canada’s Advanced Manufacturing Supercluster
00:38:33
1. Making it in Ontario: Recharged and Ready
00:32:57
trailer Re-Introducing: Making it in Ontario
00:00:55