For the season finale of Making it in Ontario, we’re getting feedback on the season’s top takeaways from a real-life advanced manufacturer who’s on the floor daily dealing with productivity, strategy, workforce, and trade challenges. What does he think of the ideas shared by our previous guests? Are they practical for someone running an SME? Our guest is Ben Whitney, the President of Armo Tool and Abuma Manufacturing out of London, Ontario, and the chair of the Trillium Network for Advanced Manufacturing’s board of directors. Ben also shares insights on running a family business, and his efforts to inspire the next generation to take over.

• 00:42 Introduction of Episode and Ben Whitney
• 05:22 Ben’s Journey to President of Armo Too and Abuma Manufacturing
• 07:40 How Ben Navigated Crises
• 09:17 Talent Strategy Today vs 2009
• 12:42 Reaction to Jayson Myers’ University Programs for Manufacturing
• 15:12 Reaction to Giles Gherson’s Sub-Scale Company Problem
• 19:47 Advice For Inspiring the Next Generation to Take Over the Family Business
• 21:19 Reaction to Michelle Sangster’s Advice For Building the Talent Pipeline
• 25:46 Reaction to Jim Stanford’s Definition of a Good Job
• 28:49 Reaction to Jean-Marc Leclerc and Michelle Sangster’s Advice on Leadership During Crises
• 31:57 Reaction to Scott MacKenzie’s Intel About Ontario’s Forthcoming Battery Plants
• 35:00 How Government Incentives Could Better Support Domestic Manufacturers
• 38:15 Why Being Involved in the Manufacturing Ecosystem is Important to Ben

Find Out More About Armo Tool and Abuma Manufacturing

• Armo Tool website: armotool.com
• Abuma Manufacturing website: abuma.com

Find Out More About Trillium

• Trillium website: trilliummfg.ca
• Trillium GIS: trilliumgis.ca
• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/company/trilliummfg
• X/Twitter: x.com/TrilliumMfg
• Instagram: instagram.com/trilliummfg
• Facebook: facebook.com/trilliummfg
• Old ‘Making it in Ontario’ Episodes: https://soundcloud.com/making-it-in-ontario-past

About the Making it in Ontario Podcast

Making it in Ontario is your window into what's next in manufacturing. Ontario’s economy depends on manufacturing, but the latest research reveals concerning trends that could undermine the sector’s strength—if we don’t address them. Join us as we talk to CEOs and other leaders at the forefront of the sector about productivity, strategy, talent markets and career opportunities, and the role of manufacturing in a prosperous and sustainable future.

This podcast is an initiative of the Trillium Network for Advanced Manufacturing. It is produced by Storied Places Media.

Welcome to Making it in Ontario, your window into what's next in

2

Ontario's manufacturing sector from the

data driven researchers at the Trillium

3

Network for Advanced Manufacturing.

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I'm Michelle Samson.

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Brendan Sweeney: And I'm Brendan Sweeney.

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Michelle Samson: Okay, Brendan, this is

our very last episode of a very successful

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tenth season of Making It in Ontario.

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Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, I mean,

it's been a great season.

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Qualitatively and qualitatively,

uh, it's been our most successful

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season yet in terms of listeners.

11

Thank you listeners for listening.

12

Welcome new listeners.

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And just in the quality

of guests, just unreal.

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Michelle Samson: Incredible guests.

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So last week, we kind of had a "Wrapped"

episode where we took some highlights from

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conversations with each of those guests.

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And then we thought we'd do one more

episode this season with a bit of

18

reaction to those highlights, right?

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Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, we did think,

hey, you know, it'd be fun to take

20

some of those highlights, to take some

of those lessons, uh, that we derived

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from some of our, prominent guests

and reality check them and hear what,

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you know, a real life, medium sized,

multi generation manufacturer in the

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London region thought about them and

what that meant to someone who's, you

24

know, actually out there running two

factories in the London area today.

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Michelle Samson: Yeah, our guest this

week is Ben Whitney, who is someone

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very familiar to and with the Trillium

Network for Advanced Manufacturing.

27

Brendan Sweeney: So Ben Whitney, uh,

he is the president of Armo Tool on

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one side of London, Abuma Manufacturing

on the other side of London.

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They do a lot of tool, die, metal fab

for the automotive industry, but as

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he'll tell you, it's automotive plus.

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And Ben has been the chair of

the Trillium Network's board.

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since I've been the Managing Director.

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He took over as Chair from Carol

Stevenson when I took over as

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Managing Director from Paul Boothe.

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Uh, he's been part of the board

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So he's been along for the ride the

whole time, and we've got to know each

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other really, really well, and we've

had some successes and challenges

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and some laughs along the way.

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And you know what really is distinct,

is unique about Ben is just how involved

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he is in what we call this advanced

manufacturing ecosystem in Ontario.

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He's involved, Fanshawe, Trillium, OG100,

CME, Uh, London Economic Development.

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He's just involved, um, you

know, everywhere he can be and

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I think that's really important.

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Michelle Samson: Yeah, he's got a really

broad perspective on top of being a

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manufacturer who is down in the trenches.

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So if anyone could really comment

on whether these insights, these

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recommendations are practical

for small and medium sized

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manufacturers, it's definitely him.

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Brendan Sweeney: One day he's

walking, you know, he's on the

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shop floor, with his staff.

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The next day he's touring a premier

or a minister through his plant.

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You know, the next day he's in

some of the kind of higher level

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meetings with other stakeholders from

manufacturing or from across the economy.

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And he'll tell us a bit more

about that in the podcast.

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Michelle Samson: Mm hmm.

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And I really enjoyed the parts of our

interview that were about the nature of

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his business being a family business.

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Um, third generation, right?

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Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, third generation.

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And so there are some of

these companies out there.

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Maybe not as many as there used to

be and getting his perspective on it.

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what that means, the potential

transitions from this generation to the

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next, and so we'll learn more about that.

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And it gives us some ideas, maybe

that'd be a good feature, um, to have a

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couple multi generation, third, fourth,

even if there's any fifth generation

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manufacturers out there that are

interested in coming, telling their

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story would be really interesting.

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And succession planning.

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Anyone want to talk about family

succession planning on the podcast?

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Cause I'm sure there's an audience

that wants to hear about that.

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Michelle Samson: That sounds

like a really great idea.

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And, uh, as a teaser, a small teaser

for that potential future episode,

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uh, Ben had some really great insights

about inspiring the next generation

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to pick up the baton, so to speak.

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Brendan Sweeney: This is a great

episode and we've got more great

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episodes coming at you in 2025.

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We're going to try to top this season.

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It's going to be hard, but I think a

couple of our first guests are going

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to get some, uh, some ears and some

eyeballs and yeah, we're really excited,

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um, to be able to tell you what's

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to wait until 2025 to tell you that.

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Michelle Samson: Mm hmm, and we don't

have an official launch date for Season

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11 just yet, but if you subscribe to

Making It Ontario on Spotify or Apple

84

or wherever you listen to your podcasts,

then you can make sure that you get

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that first episode whenever it drops.

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Brendan Sweeney: Ben,

welcome to the podcast.

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Ben Whitney: Thanks, Brendan.

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Brendan Sweeney: So tell us a bit

about your journey as a real life

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manufacturing SME, in and around London,

Ontario, Armo Tool, Abuma Manufacturing.

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How did you get here?

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What are you up to these days?

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Um, and what's good?

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Ben Whitney: So I have the privilege of

running my family's automation, tooling,

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stamping die business, Armo Tool, which

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And then my dad joined the business the

next year when he came out of high school.

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I have a engineering degree.

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My dad tried to make it so it wasn't an

obvious fit that I had to come and work

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in the family business, although I had

already worked there a couple of summers.

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So, shortly after graduation, I did work

for Lafarge for six months, but then I

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came back to work for the family company.

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And, along the way, I was a

junior mechanical designer, a

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PLC programmer, project manager.

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I ran our dye design

department for a while.

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Then I was the general manager.

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And then, um, in 2008, my dad

retired and then I was president.

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And, uh, you know, for people who

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2009 it a very difficult time.

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And I remember my dad saying to

me, You know, we never lost money

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when I was president, after I'd

been president for a year, so it's

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been 15 years, I'm almost over it.

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Then we, we grew particularly the

automation part of our business, and

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by 2017 we were looking for more space,

and we looked at a couple of buildings,

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and eventually, had a really amazing

opportunity, got introduced to a fellow

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who had started a business called Abuma.

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And was running a smaller fabrication

business, Abuma, inside this large

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industrial facility, twice as big as

the building that Armo was in, even

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though Armo's sales would have been

like seven times as much as Abuma's.

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So what we did is we bought Abuma, both

the building and the business, and we

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moved about half of Armo's personnel over

the next two years into that building.

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So we have Abuma Fabrication and Armo's

automation business in our larger

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building and, our tool and die facility.

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Both shops are here in London, Ontario.

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Brendan Sweeney: Manufacturing in Ontario

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that, I mean nothing short of a crisis.

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And you had a particular experience

there and developed a particular

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strategy that at the time sounded a

bit risky but has paid off in spades.

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Ben Whitney: My strategy

was really around advanced

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manufacturing and diversification.

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We always had a strategy

of saying yes to customers.

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And what that means to us is we start

making consumable tooling for a plant

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that's here in Southwestern Ontario.

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And then they say, "Hey, would you like

to build an automated machine for us?

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We've got a problem we want to solve."

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Oh yeah, that's, that's a

hundred percent what we do.

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And, uh, and then we take on that job.

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If things go well, we get to the attention

of corporate or somebody at the customer

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side gets transferred to a plant in the U.

138

S.

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or to Mexico or to China and we try and

follow those leads and yeah, of course, we

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want to install that machine in Tennessee.

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Of course, we want to come down

and do support in Saltillo.

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Partly you can illustrate

it by what we don't do.

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I was talking to a local small

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were closing and having an auction.

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And the owner said to me, well, you know,

we had one customer that was 90 percent of

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our business and they're moving to the U.

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S., so I guess that's it.

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So we kind of do the opposite of that.

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We have a "Automotive And" strategy.

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So it's not instead of automotive,

but it's just recognizing that it's

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going to take more than that to support

the growth that we want to have.

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Brendan Sweeney: And, and your talent

strategy, in an industry that the

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value add is synonymous with talent.

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Could you tell us a bit about that

and how that, what you were doing in

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2009 versus what you're doing today?

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Ben Whitney: You're completely right.

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What we're doing is selling skilled labor,

whether that's the designer clicking away

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with their mouse or whether it's tool

makers or millwrights on the shop floor.

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So we try and create a very

pleasant work environment.

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You know, we're flexible on times.

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We have air conditioning throughout

the manufacturing facilities.

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We want it to feel like a family business.

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We want it to be a family business.

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So we have very low turnover on people

who have more than five years in.

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And now we focus on getting more

young people to join the business.

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You know, there was a time before

COVID, there wasn't a lot of interest

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in the skilled trades from Canadian

young people or their parents.

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That's starting to turn now, where the

high schools are calling us and looking

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for co op placements and things like that.

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We have been most successful when

we meet people as young as possible.

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You know, there's the saying that

you should hire for fit, not skills.

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That's been successful for us.

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It takes longer, especially when you're

hiring young people, but try and have

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a workplace that's attractive to them.

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So, for instance, in our grinding

room, equipment is mostly the same

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as it was 25 years ago, and there

are some pretty advanced CNC grinding

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machines, but we really couldn't see

that we particularly needed them.

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We went ahead and bought one last

year anyways, partly to make the

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grinding room sexier to new recruits,

and also believing that with advanced

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manufacturing, you can kind of add some

capabilities that you're not sure how

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you're going to use them, but you usually

find a way to use them or you start to

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be able to win work that you couldn't

do before without that new capability.

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And right beside a strategy to recruit

young people is, you know, a good

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referral program because your current

team members are your best source of new

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ones and then also recognizing that you

got to recruit newcomer talent and you

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got to be a welcoming workplace for them.

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Which is pretty new for us.

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We're in kind of rural southwestern

Ontario, outside London is our tool

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and die shop, and I guess we've

always welcomed immigrants, the

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difference is what countries they're

coming from, right, over time.

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And we've done a good job of that,

you know, it's more than just

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calling your Christmas party a

holiday party, but, you know, but

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it starts with those little signals.

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Brendan Sweeney: Let's get into our,

uh, the meat of today's episode.

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Last week on Making It in Ontario,

listeners would have heard some

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highlights from this season from, you

know, a number of people who are leaders

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in this space, whether it's CEOs of

vehicle assemblers or people who have

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played an important role in economic

development and research in the ecosystem.

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Some of them we kind of asked,

What would you change if you

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could change one thing to put

manufacturing on a better trajectory?

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Um, you know, others we just kind

of, through our conversations, got to

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some of the major issues of the day.

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And a lot of them were related

to workforce, but not all.

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And your colleague and mine and

fellow board member Jay Myers, CEO

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of NGen, when we asked him the magic

wand question, you know, "What one

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thing would you like to see happen?"

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He said he would like to see

more manufacturing training at

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universities for manufacturing

leaders, for manufacturing strategists.

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And so he said that we don't

really have that in Ontario.

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We have great universities.

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We have great colleges, but

they're not teaching people how

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to be manufacturers and leaders

specifically in manufacturing, which

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requires a really specific skill set.

214

Agree or disagree?

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Do you think there's value in

seeing something like that?

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Or is there, does that exist somewhere?

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And maybe Jay just wasn't aware.

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Have you seen this in the past?

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How would that look?

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How would that help your business?

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Ben Whitney: You know, I think that's

a very insightful thing to say.

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When I was working for my dad for

a few years, we started talking

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about, well, should I go do an MBA?

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And he was pretty negative about the idea

because he hadn't liked some of the MBA

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young guys that he had interacted with.

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And I ended up taking a master's degree

in engineering, but I took all the

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business stream courses that I could,

and they were taught by MBA profs,

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and I, and I got a bunch of skills

from that that were super valuable.

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So I see what Jay's talking

about there even in my own life.

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And then my oldest son is in business

school right now at McMaster, and

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he's in third year, and I think his

classmates want to be in finance

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and they want to be in M&A and

they want to be Bay Street guys.

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And I think there's an operation stream,

but I'm not sure it's attracting the best

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and brightest, which is what we need.

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And I'm not sure we're telling

the story of how exciting the

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careers are in manufacturing.

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So we could do better, right?

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We could do better there.

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In Ontario, there's an awful lot of 50

person advanced manufacturers with a niche

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product or a niche process, but are the

owners and managers of those companies

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looking up and understanding the broader

framework and what they could do and

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what it would take for them to double?

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It's pretty easy to be busy

in the business instead of

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working on the business.

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Brendan Sweeney: Funny that you

mentioned that, you know, are

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they really thinking about, well,

how do we double the business?

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How do we grow the business?

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How do we grow our markets?

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And Giles Gerson, who is now the

CEO of the Toronto Region Board

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of Trade, but he was a friend and

supporter of Trillium for a long time

251

in his role as the Deputy Minister

of the Ontario Ministry of Economic

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Development, Job Creation and Trade.

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Ben Whitney: Super smart

people in government.

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Another thing that is a plus.

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Brendan Sweeney: Yeah, and, and it's

benefited us, uh, significantly.

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We had a lot of conversations about that

subscale problem, about the challenge

257

in Ontario that we have a lot of great

companies that have 50 people, that

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have 80 people, that have 110 people,

but we have a hard time growing them to

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become companies that have 500 people,

800 people that have a headquarters in

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London or Windsor or Toronto and then

operations across the globe and you

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know, maybe all the other fun stuff

that comes with that headquarters,

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you know, like industrial R&D.

263

So, Giles likened it to a Christmas

tree farm where we grow these, you

264

know, up until six feet tall, we grow

these great trees, cut them down,

265

harvest them, start all over again.

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Um, you are around 200 people now?

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Ben Whitney: That's right.

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Brendan Sweeney: And exporting to...

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Ben Whitney: U.

270

S.

271

and Mexico, probably 40

percent of sales is exports.

272

Brendan Sweeney: Is there an interest in

taking things from 200 people and, you

273

know, the revenue associated with that

to 300 people, 400 people, 500 people?

274

Um, what are the pros of that?

275

What are the cons of that?

276

What exists in Ontario

to help you do that?

277

Um, but what barriers exist to doing

that, or to doing that in Ontario, and

278

not getting to a point where you say,

oh great, well now we have to move

279

to Detroit or Columbus or Chicago.

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Ben Whitney: Hmm.

281

Well, I'll tell you first, the company

282

owner, smarter guy than me, but more

of an inventor than a business guy, uh,

283

I think he would agree, and he didn't

want to go bigger than X people because

284

that would have meant you have to have

a joint health and safety committee.

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And he didn't want to go bigger

because you would have had to

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do this and you would have paid

different taxes and whatever.

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Like, posters on the wall of

his office about staying small.

288

And for really relatively

inconsequential reasons, right?

289

But they were bending the whole way

that he thought about his business

290

and what was the right size.

291

And at the same time, he was in a

hundred thousand square foot building.

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You know, Armo would have been,

we were in a 40, 000 square foot

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building and we had five times his

workforce in half the building.

294

So, that's unfortunate and I don't

know whether that's about the person

295

or about how we structure our, our

legislation and rules and taxes.

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I think in Canada there's a little

bit of like, you can do well,

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but not too well, because it's

offensive to do really, really well.

298

And I don't know how you

alter that story, right?

299

It's okay to do well and donate

some money to the hospital, but,

300

oh, you donated a hundred million

dollars to the hospital, oh, that's,

301

hmm, I don't know if I like that.

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And maybe that's part of the

Christmas tree farm environment.

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It's just plain hard to do it in

Canada, because the market is small.

304

You know, if you're the best tool and

die shop in New York State, you're

305

probably as big or bigger than we are.

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And so, if we're the best in Canada,

which I'm not saying that we are, there's

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some, you know, fabulous, humongous

companies, but it's hard to grow to a

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global scale, like, you know, for example,

ATS did, that's pretty hard to do.

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And then, it's also important for these

family businesses that the successors

310

are interested in working there.

311

Lots of people in my kid's

generation where they, you know,

312

they all want to be dentists.

313

They don't want to go

and run the tool shop.

314

And a little bit, I think it's

because mom and dad came home and

315

told too many horror stories about

the tool shop and how hard it was.

316

But they didn't tell enough stories

about, but I can knock off early on

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a Friday, and we're making more money

than we would make as a dentist.

318

And we're, you know, have the

freedom to chart our own path.

319

I know my daughter has said, Oh,

I never want to go into business.

320

Um, too many stories from

dad, and my wife was running a

321

business as well for a while.

322

You know, it's just too many stories.

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Brendan Sweeney: As the owner of a

family business, what advice would you

324

give to other owners that are in this

kind of succession journey and that

325

they're trying to compel or even inspire

other family members to get interested

326

in getting involved in the business or

even taking the business over one day?

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Ben Whitney: I think taking them to

the business when they're young even

328

if it's after hours and letting them

sit on a forklift and point to the

329

squishing machine and, which is what

my kids call the press and, you know,

330

be around it a bit so that they can

picture it a little bit is important.

331

And depending on the age and

what's appropriate, talking

332

about the rewards that are there.

333

I was talking to a guy who wanted to

sell his small stamping dye business,

334

and one of his sons was working there on

the floor and his other son is a teacher.

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And he's like, yeah, neither one of

them want to take over the business.

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And he was kind of showing me the numbers.

337

I'm like, have you told either one of

them that you're making $2 million a year?

338

Cause I think that could

be inspirational to them.

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He's like, oh no, so they only see the

money that you're spending, which in

340

his case I think was relatively modest.

341

They don't understand the

scale of the business.

342

And then the other thing is, well, maybe

you're doing it all, but doesn't mean

343

the next generation has to do it all.

344

You start to bring in a professional

manager who's working with you and taking

345

a bunch of the stress of the things

that you're not good at, and then that,

346

that leaves a much easier, um, next

step succession plan for your children.

347

Michelle Samson: You know, I

feel this is a good transition

348

to Michelle Sangster's highlight.

349

Michelle Sangster from Eclipse,

a division of Accenture.

350

She talked about how, you know,

manufacturers, in order to build that

351

pipeline, need to do a better job of

showing what working in manufacturing

352

really is, you know, at all levels,

what innovation in manufacturing looks

353

like, especially where sort of this

younger generation is really influenced

354

by what they see on social media,

they see tech, they see all of these

355

things, but they're not getting that

insight into all of the really cool

356

things that happen within manufacturing.

357

So yeah, what are your thoughts on that

and how manufacturers could maybe do a

358

better job of showing what these jobs

look like and how interesting they can be?

359

Ben Whitney: Yeah, I always try

and position myself as an advanced

360

manufacturer to kind of draw a line there.

361

Um, we sponsor high school robotics

teams, and then we demand that the

362

teams tour the shop with their parents

before we give them the money so that

363

they see what advanced manufacturing

looks like in the real world.

364

We participate with some of

the teacher organizations.

365

So then for the last couple of years,

uh, busloads of guidance counselors

366

and, uh, teachers have toured the shop

so that when they're thinking about

367

whether Susie would enjoy a job in

the skilled trades, then they have

368

a better idea of what that means.

369

And then we reach out to the high

school shop teachers, um, to try

370

and make sure that they know that if

they have a promising kid, even if

371

somebody told them, oh, Armo's full.

372

If you have a promising

person, we'll find a spot.

373

That's gotten us some really great

young people join the business.

374

So I saw a video on LinkedIn of a guy

running a milling machine and it was

375

a 70 year old milling machine and he's

working on an engine, he's got no safety

376

glasses on, he's got flip flops on and

there's a cat lying under the machine

377

that aluminum chips are landing a little

bit on this cat and comments are starting

378

up with, "oh, what a craftsman and how

great it is to see this level of like

379

doing that on this machine" kind of thing.

380

And I'm just like, no wonder we can't get

anybody interested in joining the trade.

381

This is what we're actually celebrating?

382

What a nightmare.

383

But I didn't have the guts to put it

in the comments because I was afraid

384

of getting eaten alive by people.

385

That's a great hobby project, you

know, and the video is probably

386

50 years old, but that is not what

manufacturing looks like, and it does

387

us a disservice to show people that.

388

Brendan Sweeney: Do some of your skilled

trades staff have really nice vehicles?

389

Ben Whitney: Yeah, well, there's kind

of a split between young guys with

390

new F 150s and older people with,

uh, the cheapest van that they can

391

get, I guess, like any workplace.

392

One of our project managers drives

the Vamborghini, as he calls it.

393

Brendan Sweeney: Maybe you show those,

uh, those high school students in the

394

robotics competitions the F-150s that

the younger, uh, trades people can...

395

Ben Whitney: Yeah, those rewards.

396

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

397

See if they're nicer than their

parents' vehicles, as a means to

398

convince them that, hey, maybe

this is the career choice for you.

399

Ben Whitney: That's a good point.

400

You know, the financial rewards are there.

401

And I remember Ontario ran that

advertising campaign where they had

402

like the, the plates on the Porsche

that said plumber and things like that.

403

Um, as part of our outreach, whenever

we're touring teachers or young people,

404

I always get some of our tour guides

to be people who are, you know, 22 and

405

younger, and when we're stopping to

talk to people on the shop floor, do I

406

look for those young people too and have

them share their educational journeys.

407

Because quite often it's like, "I

went to school for this, and then I

408

tried it, and I didn't like it, and

then I went and worked over here,

409

and I didn't like that either, and

then, you know, now I'm a electrician,

410

industrial electrician apprentice."

411

So it's pretty normal to

not get it exactly right.

412

I'm actually a geological engineer,

is my undergrad degree so, you know,

413

you kind of get there over time.

414

But yeah, trying to meet people where

they're at, and talk to them about why

415

this could be a good career for them.

416

You know, people think that they

would rather be a roofer than be

417

a millwright because they don't

want to work inside all day.

418

Well, after a couple of winters,

I think that gets kind of old.

419

And, uh, our best recruiting

season is August when the air

420

conditioning feels ever so good.

421

Brendan Sweeney: Yeah.

422

After, after a couple, uh, Elgin

County summers up on the roof...

423

Ben Whitney: That's right.

424

Brendan Sweeney: We talked a bunch with

Jim Stanford about what makes a good job.

425

And, certainly, compensation, I mean,

you can't get around compensation.

426

You know, it takes a lot of

other nice to haves to make up

427

for a job that pays $18 an hour.

428

But, you know, you're not paying

tradespeople $18 an hour, you're

429

paying them enough so they can afford

an F 150 or something cool like that.

430

But what else, in your

opinion, makes a good job?

431

What makes a good career, uh,

in addition to compensation?

432

Ben Whitney: Well, one of our

competitors for labor is certainly

433

production factories, right?

434

And I'm not saying that those are not

good jobs, but what we have to offer,

435

because we can't pay quite as much as

those people can, what we have to offer

436

is variety and agency, and continuous

learning, and flexibility on time.

437

We don't have midnight shift.

438

We barely have afternoon shift

and almost everybody who is

439

on it is on it permanently.

440

Um, so a lot of lifestyle stuff.

441

And, you know, we expect more from people

than just punching a clock and kind of

442

doing the same thing over and over again.

443

As a job shop we're doing new stuff

all the time which I think is, for me

444

is really interesting and exciting.

445

And we hardly lose anybody

once once they've been a part

446

of our team for a few years.

447

We all tend to grow our lifestyle

to the money that we have, right?

448

But at the end of the day, whether

you have the platinum F-150 or

449

the LTF-150 doesn't really, uh,

change your life all that much.

450

But whether you're the person who

goes underneath the, the grease

451

conveyor and tightens the bolts every

Monday, or whether you're the person

452

who's figuring out how to solve a

problem is, is pretty impactful.

453

Brendan Sweeney: The Shelby F 150

will change your life, but there's

454

only like 200 of those made a year.

455

Anyway, um, Ben, do you

want to unpack agency?

456

You know, what does that mean to you?

457

What does that mean at Armo and at Abuma?

458

And does that kind of cut both

ways that you're going to give

459

someone agency, you're going to

give someone some latitude, some

460

responsibility, but at the same time,

that means they've got work to do.

461

Ben Whitney: Uh, yes, I remember hiring

a machinist and a mid career fella and

462

him telling me, you know, at the shop

that I am working at today, there is

463

somebody standing 20 feet away watching

what I'm doing and if I step away from my

464

machine, possibly throwing something at

me and definitely screaming at me if I

465

scrap something or something goes wrong.

466

Um, and I said to him, well,

that won't happen here.

467

But just a caution, if you need

those things to be successful,

468

you'll just end up getting let go.

469

Because we'll just talk to you once

or twice about how you're not meeting

470

our needs and then we'll let you go.

471

It just won't work out.

472

Sometimes, um, people who come from

terrible places really appreciate

473

what we offer, but they can't

work productively without some of

474

those, uh, styles of management.

475

Brendan Sweeney: Styles of

management, styles of leadership.

476

We had some great conversations with

Michelle Sangster about leadership,

477

and with Jean Marc Leclerc, uh, the

CEO of Honda, about leadership and

478

especially about leadership during crises.

479

And, my guess is that

you probably had some

480

introductions

481

Brendan Sweeney: to leadership

482

some more seasoned experience with

483

Uh, I think the two words that, if

you put Michelle Sangster and Jean

484

Marc Leclerc in a room and they

had that conversation together,

485

transparency with your employees,

with your customers, with suppliers.

486

And authenticity, and to some degree

just, you know, being your authentic self.

487

Maybe it's your authentic self at work.

488

Um, but transparency,

authenticity were their tips.

489

Michelle Samson, anything else from those

conversations that stood out to you?

490

Michelle Samson: No, I think

those two words were bang on.

491

Brendan Sweeney: Your thoughts, Ben.

492

Ben Whitney: I would probably

choose empathy and authenticity.

493

Sometimes, I wouldn't care to be quite

so transparent to my customers, um,

494

it's sort of like a duck, you look

calm on the surface and swim like hell

495

underneath, and you don't necessarily

want to transmit to everyone that

496

you're paddling that hard underneath.

497

But I always make the assumption that

people are trying to do their best,

498

that they want to do their best, that

they want to succeed for themselves

499

and for the, um, organization.

500

And so if something weird is happening

with a person, then I try and start

501

from there, because so much of our

lives doesn't happen at work, right?

502

So many of the stressors are

happening outside of that.

503

And then, yeah, authenticity for sure.

504

I think that's one of my strengths and

part of why people trust us, and...

505

communication is always

not good enough, right?

506

It's never, it's never sufficient.

507

But if people trust you, then when they

see the company do something strange

508

or, or foolish, then at least they

trust that from someone's desk, that

509

it seemed like a good idea or that, or

that things are going to turn out well.

510

Or, or at least they come and talk to me

and go, Ben, did we really just tear down

511

this internal shop office and then five

feet over from there we built these walls?

512

Like, did we really just do that?

513

Okay, here's why that seemed

to make sense at the time.

514

Brendan Sweeney: If there was one

other description of your leadership

515

style during COVID as the leader of two

companies, where would you go with that?

516

Ben Whitney: Well, we definitely

overcommunicated during COVID and had

517

empathy for people because of course,

some people's stress level went crazy and

518

other people thought it was just a cold.

519

And, it was a crazy time.

520

Um, and not getting

entrenched in a decision.

521

Like I remember telling a guy.

522

You know, you can't work from

home 100 percent and then like

523

two days later, we sent 20 people

home to work from home, right?

524

So just being willing to take in new

information and, uh, and, and being agile.

525

Brendan Sweeney: Now, uh, the big news

over the past couple years in southern

526

Ontario and especially in the London

region, but also in Windsor, in Simcoe

527

County, in Montreal, battery plants are

coming and we had a great conversation

528

with Scott McKenzie of Toyota,

another Trillium Network board member.

529

There's a theme here, isn't there, about

the the coming EV battery plants and

530

about his experience seeing Toyota's

battery plant in Japan and he was

531

pretty clear that life in an EV battery

plant is nothing like life in a vehicle

532

production facility, in an assembly plant.

533

Um, and it's, you know, some, weird

convergence of electronics manufacturing

534

and chemical manufacturing and if

we get it into our heads that we're

535

just going to take people from

assembly plants and pop them over

536

into battery plants, that's, that's

probably not how it's going to work.

537

And then, I mean, there's just

other ripple effects throughout the

538

manufacturing sector when it comes to

these massive new investments, some

539

of them, you know, Volkswagen, Honda,

potentially the largest manufacturing

540

investments in Ontario ever.

541

From your vantage point, from

your perspective, what do the

542

new battery plants mean to you

and to manufacturing in Ontario?

543

Ben Whitney: So I support these

battery plants and I think they're a

544

very good thing, but barely for me.

545

The truth is that these battery

plants are going to be filled with

546

equipment that comes from offshore.

547

And because they're so specialized that

their, that speciality doesn't exist,

548

that expertise doesn't exist here, and

they're going to be twinned from plants

549

that have already been built or are

being built other places, and they're

550

not going to take equipment risk by

developing new equipment suppliers.

551

And then they're going to start hiring

and they're going to hire skilled labor,

552

and that's going to be challenging for me.

553

At the same time, you know, it's going to

be good for the local economy, but I don't

554

think it's particularly good for me as

a automation company in London, Ontario.

555

Brendan Sweeney: If we know that now

and we've got three years ahead of

556

us to prepare, how do we make sure

either it is good for you, um, in

557

the short term, medium term, long

term, or that it's at least neutral?

558

Ben Whitney: Well, we need to work hard

with the battery plants to train people

559

to do the jobs that they want so that

they've got a pipeline of people who

560

were unemployed or being up skilled

and instead of them trying to hire,

561

you know, mid career people who have

good jobs, who are working for me.

562

And I see that, uh, Volkswagen

Power Co is meeting with the

563

college and the university here

and, and working on those things.

564

So I hope that those things are

going to be in place and come online.

565

You know, when the government

is handing out money, they could

566

push harder that, well, this money

has to be spent in Ontario, at

567

least for some of the equipment.

568

And I'm not talking about the plant build,

because of course you get that anyways,

569

but, if the needle is that plant's

going to be 30 percent built in Ontario,

570

what does it take to move it to 40%?

571

You know, Ontarians are investing a lot

of money, so that would be my angle.

572

I mean, we're starting to learn a

little bit about the nuclear industry.

573

EDC is loaning a huge amount of

money to Romania to build nuclear

574

reactors that are CANDU reactors.

575

All of that loan has to be spent

in Canada is my understanding.

576

Brendan Sweeney: Oh, wow.

577

Ben Whitney: So we'll finance

your nuclear reactor, but it's

578

going to be built in Canada.

579

If there's going to be a hundred million

dollars of machines come from South

580

Korea or from China to go into one of

these battery plants, if the incentives

581

were there such that right back to those

guys who have the intellectual property,

582

it was like, yeah, but you need to

spend 10 percent of that in Ontario.

583

Then they would look through their

bill of materials and go, okay,

584

these are all the standard parts.

585

We're going to have

those built in Ontario.

586

At least that would be something.

587

Michelle Samson: I think this is a

good transition to our next clip with

588

Scott, which was about the role of

government and policymakers and you

589

know, how they can be, maybe doing a

better job, if you want to use that term,

590

Ben Whitney: Even better job.

591

Michelle Samson: Even better job of

supporting manufacturers when they're

592

making these kinds of decisions and

building these kinds of policies.

593

So we asked Scott if he could

tell the policy makers anything,

594

you know, what would he tell them?

595

And, uh, he said that, you know,

they really just need to talk

596

to manufacturers and listen.

597

That you guys are the experts in

what you do, and also that, uh,

598

a great way to do that is to come

and see and to take those tours.

599

So thoughts on that if, uh, you agree with

him or if you would add anything else?

600

Ben Whitney: Well, I've had

quite a few politicians, uh,

601

through our shop over the years.

602

Kathleen Wynne ran the buttons

on our big stamping press and

603

brought it around one time.

604

And I'm pretty sure that was

outside of her comfort zone.

605

We invite them cause we want

to show them that advanced

606

manufacturing is worth saving.

607

I hate it when you read about this sort

of, ivory tower bubble of like, "Well,

608

manufacturing's in the past and what we

need to do is focus on these other jobs."

609

So we try and show them what advanced

manufacturing is and show them how

610

smart our workers are and how good

the work that we're doing is, that

611

it is world class manufacturing

happening here in London, Ontario.

612

Um, of course, I haven't read the

agreement for how some of these

613

big grants have happened with the

battery plants, but I'm glad to hear

614

that some of it is, "Well, you get

this many dollars, but only if you

615

produce this many batteries", right?

616

So if conditions change and the ramp up

is slower, then it affects their money.

617

But I would have liked to see more

encouragement to spend that money locally.

618

And on the stuff that

was not obvious, right?

619

You know, put a bit more of a lever

into, "Okay, well, to get this

620

money, then half of the equipment

would have to be sourced in Canada."

621

And they'll freak out and tell you,

"Well, we absolutely cannot do that."

622

And then work towards a number that

will be difficult, but possible.

623

Brendan Sweeney: Last question.

624

You know, we talk about the ecosystem

a lot, where you have manufacturers,

625

you have government, and you have

Fanshawe, and Western, and NGen, and

626

the Trillium Network, and CME, and EMC.

627

And you're someone who is running two

factories, but you're involved in all

628

manner of organizations, and in hosting

ministers and premiers to come through.

629

Why is it important for you as a small

manufacturer, as the leader owner

630

of a small manufacturing company,

to be involved in the ecosystem and

631

to make sure that, you're on the

agenda when politicians are nearby

632

or that you're on the, you know,

you're part of what Fanshawe's doing,

633

you're part of what Trillium's doing?

634

It's not unique, but it's

not as common as you think.

635

Why is it important?

636

Ben Whitney: Wow, you know, I learned

so much from you, Brendan, and from

637

the other people that I'm around, and

the chance to be around people who

638

are running really big companies and

customers of ours and, and what other

639

people in the ecosystem are thinking.

640

And really, we're relying on

Fanshawe turning out good students.

641

We're relying on, you know, the

work that Trillium does making

642

manufacturing a priority for Ontario.

643

So I'm aware of the importance of these

other stakeholders in our success.

644

And also, you know, I'm blessed that

we're have the scale and the team that

645

I don't have to quote jobs myself much

anymore or, or make those decisions.

646

And actually by spending a bit of

my time doing some things that I'm

647

well suited to, then it lets some

other people blossom on our team and

648

take accountability and the reins.

649

Selfishly, I enjoy

showing people what we do.

650

When you bring somebody through the

shop, and they're excited, and then

651

you reflect that excitement back

into your own team who, we all get

652

jaded in the work that we do, right?

653

So when somebody goes, I have been in

a lot of places and I have never seen

654

somebody do that or a shop that's so clean

or such a variety of work or such a, you

655

know, a diverse and exciting workforce.

656

That keeps me going too.

657

Brendan Sweeney: Great, um, any

658

know, your journey, our journey,

the journey, for our listeners.

659

Ben Whitney: Yeah, I would say

that first of all there's always

660

challenges in 2024 it feels like

maybe there's unique challenges.

661

But in 2009, I would go to meetings in

the U.S where they were talking about

662

automotive and the forecast for Canada

was to go to zero for car assembly,

663

and quite condescendingly, you should

just accept that you're going to zero,

664

because Michigan, the southern states,

and Mexico is going to be where car

665

assembly is, and you guys are screwed.

666

Really discouraging.

667

And if it wasn't for a few visionary

people, some of them very involved

668

with Trillium, like Paul Boothe and Ray

Tanguay, and people in government, like

669

Doug Ford, believing that that didn't

have to be the case, I think we'd have

670

very little automotive left in Ontario.

671

So, we've had challenges before.

672

Brendan Sweeney: Ben, that was great.

673

Thank you.

674

Ben Whitney: Thanks guys.

675

Michelle Samson: New episodes of Making

it in Ontario are published weekly.

676

Follow us now on Apple Podcasts or

Spotify to make sure you don't miss any.

677

Making it in Ontario is an

initiative of the Trillium Network

678

for Advanced Manufacturing.

679

It is produced by Storied Places Media.