On this episode of Talk Of The County, host Kenneth Wilson welcomes Al Vanderberg, County Administrator for Kent County, Michigan, for a wide-ranging conversation about what makes West Michigan and Grand Rapids such dynamic places to live and work.

The two longtime colleagues talk about the unique challenges and opportunities facing county governments, draw out fun connections between their Michigan and Ohio roots, and offer listeners an insider's perspective on how Kent County is balancing rapid growth, changing demographics, and a vibrant cultural and economic scene.

From the legacy of President Gerald R. Ford and the rise of major furniture and brewing industries, to the booming arts scene and ambitious projects like a world-class aquarium, Al Vanderberg shares both pride and candid insight into what’s driving Kent County forward.

The conversation also touches on pressing issues like affordable housing, public transit, and the future of shopping malls and neighborhoods. Plus, you’ll hear some fun personal moments—including hidden talents, favorite vacation spots, and the story of a family legacy in public service.

Whether you’re a Midwestern local or just curious about how fast-growing communities tackle the future, this episode is packed with stories and lessons from the front lines of local government leadership.

Here are 3 key takeaways:

1. Kent County’s Dynamic Growth: Kent County is the fastest-growing county in Michigan, where young people and diverse populations are flocking thanks to vibrant arts, sports, and business opportunities.
2. Leadership Matters: Solving big challenges like affordable housing, transportation, and supporting arts institutions requires collaborative, visionary leadership across public and private sectors.
3. Community & Culture Drive Success: From renowned festivals, breweries, and museums to resilient partnerships between city and county governments, Kent County thrives because it invests in community and culture.

Moments

06:14 Grand Rapids: Furniture and Beer Hub

09:34 "Growing Young and Diverse"

10:25 Grand Rapids Cultural Highlights

13:31 Grand River Aquarium Project

17:43 "Tackling Housing and Homelessness Challenges"

20:48 "Grand Rapids Transit & Challenges"

25:32 "Meyer Gardens' Leading Success"

28:32 City-County Collaboration Enhanced

32:41 "Detroit's Perfect Leader: Campbell"

34:35 "Greenway Trails and Connections"

38:43 "Thriving Populations in Kent County"

40:18 "Shifting Demographics in West Michigan"

44:18 Malls Evolving: Transitions & Trends

48:50 "Leadership Driving Growth and Solutions"

50:59 "Son's Journey to Leadership"

talkofthecounty@franklincountyohio.gov

Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!):

https://uppbeat.io/t/soundroll/tropicana

License code: 6VVAVEFBZTQOL3AW

Copyright 2026 Franklin County Board of Commissioners

Good morning. We are here for another episode of Talk of the County. I'm Kenneth Wilson, your County Administrator. I'm here this morning with Al Vattenberg, my colleague from Kent County, Michigan. We are members of the National Association of County Administrators. Our friendship has grown over the years. We have a number of connections due to the fact that I am a native of a West Michigan town, Muskegon, which Al has family roots there. So Al, tell our podcast listeners a little bit about yourself.

Well, good morning, Ken. It's a pleasure to be with you this morning. And yes, West Michigan still claims you as one of our own. So it's good to be here.

Yeah.

So I have been in public management now about just over 42 years and I haven't strayed far from home. Originally from Grand Haven and Muskegon. They're kind of near each other on the coast. I have spent the last 4 and a half years as county administrator at Kent County. Kent County, Michigan is the 4th largest out of 83 Michigan counties and the fastest growing in the state. And prior to that, I was in Ottawa County for about 18 and a half years. Prior to that, Kent as a deputy manager and prior to that, South Haven city manager. So I've been around the local government management of profession for a long time and absolutely love it.

So yeah, you have city experience, uh, county experience, uh, and I know that, you know, cities, uh, are somewhat different than, uh, your responsibilities in, uh, county government as a, um, a manager Administrator, tell me what do you see as, um, the, the thing that stands out most based upon your experiences in your career being a, uh, county administrator versus your days as a city manager.

You know, we could start right from the top with the authority of the position, because as a city manager, I was the only employee that the city council hired.

And then I hired all the department heads and ran the whole city.

In county government, we have what's known as elected officials. So we have the clerk, the treasurer, the register of deeds, the sheriff, the prosecutor, treasurer, and they have the authority to operate their area from the Constitution and state law. Now, what makes it interesting is the county administrator, and I'm about county administrator/controller, authority over the money.

And so that kind of sets up a mutually assured destruction situation. And thankfully in West Michigan, we've had the kind of people in our roles who are able to shut the door and have disagreements and do the hard work of compromise, work it out, and then we move forward for the good of the county. So that's a big thing. The other huge thing I think is the fact that my elected board of commissioners are partisan. So they're Republicans and Democrats. And when I left Kent County to go to Ottawa County years ago, it was a very strong Republican board, 16-3. Well, now we have 2 more, a 21-member board of commissioners, and they're 12 and 9. So I'm back in a purple county.

And that is way different than being a city manager in Michigan.

Yes, yes. Western Michigan, particularly Kent County, has some pretty powerful conservative roots. We have a well-known president, there's a presidential library in his honor, the late Gerald R. Ford.

Yes.

Tell us a little bit about that legacy that still is there in Grand Rapids, bright as ever.

Yeah, you know, Gerald R. Ford, the more time goes by, the better he looks as president, for especially his sacrifice in basically pardoning Richard Nixon and what that meant for his future political career and not winning another term. But the library and the museum, the library's in Ann Arbor, and the museum where Gerald R. Ford went to, you know, the University of Michigan.

Yeah, we're gonna get to that later.

Yeah, okay, all right, all right.

We know he played football at the University of Michigan as well, yeah.

But there's just a lot of programming, the Hauenstein Institute. Ralph Hauenstein was a member of the OSS, which was a precursor to the CIA. He chaired our Officers Compensation Commission at the county and was just a grand guy who died over 100 years old. But the legacy really is in all the education that happens around Gerald R. Ford. There's groups, there's a whole number of leaders in the community that played a role in his, some of his campaigns for House even. There's still some of those folks around. And it's certainly a major point of pride to be the home of Gerald R.

Ford.

What are some other facts about Grand Rapids that you could share with my Ohio-based podcast listeners?

I'm going to guess that many of your listeners, when they're sitting at their desk, are sitting at a desk made in Grand Rapids or West Michigan. Steelcase Corporation was founded in Grand Rapids. And then we have Hayworth, also has a presence in Grand Rapids, and Miller Knoll, which used to be Herman Miller. And so those are all 3 huge furniture manufacturers. And then we're also the beer capital of the United States. So Founders Brewing started in Grand Rapids. We had Bell's nearby in Kalamazoo, but they sold out. And then we have New Holland Brewing, Dragon's Milk, if you like that kind of beer.

Brewery Vivant. There's just a whole number. It's a real hotbed of the brew house activity.

Little fun fact about me, I spent a summer working at Herman Miller.

Really?

On the paint line, hanging all the different furniture pieces. And then my first job out of graduate school, I worked in Ohio Statehouse and the Statehouse went through a major renovation. All the, you know, all of course all the furnishes were repaired. And little did I know, I start, I open up the drawer and it has the Herman Miller stamp on it. And I was like, I had flashbacks of looking at those pieces and building the furniture that I actually went on later to use in Columbus, Ohio. Ohio at the Ohio Statehouse that was built by Herman Miller. Wow.

Yeah.

So it's, yeah. So beer is the thing. Beer tourism is a thing. Folks come to Grand Rapids for purpose of hitting the beer trail. You guys have some pretty nice summer festivals as well.

[Speaker:BRAD] Yeah, we do. We have the Coast Guard Festival in Grand Haven, the Tulip Festival in Holland, and just a whole number of festivals in Grand Rapids. I guess I'd be delinquent if I didn't mention that Kent County, our population's coming up on 700,000. 55% of our people in Kent County are under 35 years old. And so, young people are flocking to Kent County. And I think it's 'cause there's a lot to do in the city. So some of the projects and that kind of thing.

Yeah. When I was coming up, we used to call Grand Rapids rap. We were like, "Where'd you rap?" We were about to head to rap.

One of my commissioners was the first rapper in Michigan to get a big-time LA contract. Robert Womack. Robert S was his handle.

Yeah. Talk about the demographics changes that have occurred in Grand Rapids. You talk a little bit more, you talked about the number of young people, but the demographics surely have changed as well. And with that has come some challenges with dealing with the, you know, community relations, so to speak.

Yeah, yeah, we are, not only are we growing young, but we're growing diverse. And a lot of that, I think is Grand Valley State University is one of the largest student bodies of universities in the state. And that's in Allendale, in Ottawa County, and downtown Grand Rapids. And we have a growing number from Detroit and Chicago that are attending Grand Valley. And many of them are staying. And so, that's one source of the growing diversity in the community. And we're doing a lot more with the business community to try to create internships. And ways to get people working here so that maybe they're more likely to stay here too.

You guys have a vibrant art scene. Talk a little bit about the theaters and the art.

Oh yeah. We have, well, we have the Van Andel Arena. We're putting the finishing touches on the amphitheater, 8,500-seat facility on the Grand River. And then there's another 4,000 you can see in the grassy hill area right behind the bowl area. We have ArtPrize, which is the largest outdoor art competition, at least in the United States. We have Winterfest going right now with a huge number of art installations. It's the largest winter festival in the country. And, of course, you know, We've got the art museum, we've got theater, we've got ballet, just a huge number of different kinds of opportunities for people that want to be in the cultural scene.

Michiganders love sports.

Yeah, go blue.

They love sports. Sports are big. Talk a little bit about the sports scene in Grand Rapids. I know you all have a number of home teams, so to speak. You have a developmental NBA basketball squad. Yeah. You got, you got soccer, MLS Next, I believe.

MLS Next, the top level of minor league. Yes. Soccer Club GR. So the— that's going to start a year from now. We're also building the soccer stadium. Seats about 8,000. And the opening for that will be in May of 2027. And yeah, we're really excited about that.

We also have— our teams are mostly minor league. We have the winningest baseball team in the United States. So we're pretty happy about that. The Whitecaps. Yeah. And the West Michigan Whitecaps. They won more games than any other, or the highest win percentage of any baseball team. We have the Rise.

So we have a professional women's volleyball team and they are killing it in Grand Rapids. And so it's really our only top pro team. 'Cause otherwise we got the Grand Rapids Griffins. They had a great season. Our hockey team. The driver basketball team.

And so, yeah, we got a little rivalry there. Franklin County, we're home of the Columbus Fury women's professional volleyball team.

I've seen them play in person. Yeah, I saw the Fury in the, 2 years ago, saw them play.

So yes, I'm aware of that. What else that's public that's a big deal that could happen in Grand Rapids? I think I heard something, a rumor about aspirations around an aquarium?

Yeah, there's really two kind of big things on the books that we're working hard on. One is an aquarium. So the idea would be to build a world-class aquarium on the Grand River in Kent County. The site hasn't been determined yet, but it— there's a lot of momentum to try to put it in the city. And a couple— there's a couple different locations that are possible. But this, the economic impact study that was done showed that I think 51% of the attendees would be from outside the state of Michigan, even. And so, there's a lot of work being done behind the scenes to try to stand that up. It's tagged at about a $400 million project to get it done.

And so, we're hoping that, that we can move quickly to get a few of the last pieces put together. It's being led by the John Ball Zoo.

Okay.

So the zoo director is the one who had the vision for the aquarium and they're the ones leading the project. It's likely they'll need the county to sell lodging excise tax bonds to help stand the project up.

I'm glad you mentioned the John Ball Park, the zoo, because I just know growing up, the zoo is probably one of the most popular zoos in the state of Michigan, period.

Yeah, they, I think the attendance last year was 800,000 and they think it'll be up to a million within the next couple years. They added a Lantern Fest a few years ago and it happens in June. And it is crazy packed until 11, 12 o'clock at night. And just kind of a really neat display of Asian lanterns throughout the facility, a walking tour through the facility at night. So yeah, they're doing well.

Talk a little bit about the tax base in more detail. We touched on it. You know, for county administrators, workforce development and economic development are some of the most pivotal issues that we work with.

Right.

And if it's not humming at its highest peak, there's side effects.

Right. We do have an agency dedicated to job training. They do an outstanding job. The Right Place is the regional economic development organization founded in Grand Rapids and Kent County, but now has several counties under or its purview. And we have huge growth right now in residential. Our commercial base is growing. Our industrial base is growing, but our problem is a lack of land. We don't have enough land for the manufacturing growth that's trying to come our way.

And so we're working, The Right Place, I'm on that board, so when I say we, I mean The Right Place in this case. But we're working to, secure and get the infrastructure in for a very large site on the east side of the county in Lowell as you travel towards Lansing.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Lowell, is Lowell within this Kent County limits?

Yes, Lowell, Lowell Township. And then you have the border with Ionia County.

Yeah, they've developed quite a football program in Lowell over the years. High school football. I know that because Muskegon Big Reds have, to run up against them a few times in the playoffs.

Two of the best programs in the state right there.

Yeah, so jobs, economic development, what are the challenges? Is homelessness an issue? Is poverty an issue? Community police relations. What are the challenges?

Well, you just named some of them right there. So yes, our challenges would be lack of affordable housing, homelessness. You know, we— somebody said we have more shelter beds than Seattle, yet it didn't look like— and we had 42 nonprofits working on homelessness at a cost of over $130 million a year, and it didn't look like we were making any progress. So the Chamber of Commerce put together a team and they traveled to Houston and came back and kind of emulated Houston's 100 by 100 plan. We didn't get 100 done within 100 days, but I think they're up to like 180 now, and only 2 people haven't made the program. So these are some of the folks with the most challenging mental health issues and on the streets, and they put together a good mousetrap for helping them get into housing and stay in housing. Other ones though, transportation countywide. The hardest question I ever have to answer on a survey is, am I an urban or rural county? Well, Grand Rapids is the second biggest city in the state, and we've got some big cities, we call them the Metro 6, Grand Rapids and the 5 cities around.

Wyoming and Kentwood are pretty good-sized cities. [Speaker] Yes, they are, yeah. Yet it's not, you don't have to travel far out of Grand Rapids before you're in farmland. So we've got the county, the suburbs, the 5th highest ag-producing county out of 83. And we're the number 1 county for car-deer accidents. So, you know, because you've got this mix of urban, rural, and so just, you can't make a countywide transportation feasible. And so we're looking at a whole number of options to help communities solve that problem.

Good point, Al. What is the state of public transit in Grand Rapids? Is there talk about bus rapid transit? Is there talk about light rail? You may already have these things. What's the health of the bus system? Michigan is a state that has its roots grounded in the Big Three, and as a result of that public transit didn't develop anywhere across the state the way it did in other parts of the country.

You're right. It's our God-given right to have a car and to take that car wherever we want. And so unfortunately, we've missed some real opportunities. When I was at Kent the first time 25 years ago, there was a big push to do transit, light rail. But the problem is the communities were all zoning their land I mean, not dense at all. The opposite of dense. I mean, we have communities where the rail would have gone where not that long ago, 40 acres was the smallest lot. I mean, and so unfortunately, the land didn't develop in a way to have the ridership right there to make light rail work.

But we do have a bus system. It's called the Rapid. And it serves really the, It serves the city of Grand Rapids and the 5 cities that surround it, and then some other areas like a couple of our urban townships, like Gaines and Plainfield, but it's not countywide. And it's really not feasible to make it countywide. So that's where some of our challenges come in there. But yeah, I would say that those are some of the bigs, the homelessness, the affordable housing, Transportation are just 3 of the bigger things we're trying to solve for. The other thing I would say is just the kind of the state of our arts and cultural institutions. Because, you know, we have a few very successful individuals, a few billionaires in Kent County who over generations have graciously supported the arts.

And yet as their money's divided, as new generations come in, they have other priorities. And so, and this, and there's, I think, just a lack of some of the corporate support that used to be there too. So one of the other issues that's bubbling up is how are our major cultural and arts institutions going to survive and thrive in the future?

That leads me to, you talk about families that have had a great impact upon Kent County. Talk about a little bit of the history around that, Amway family.

Oh yeah, yeah. Rich DeWos and Jay Van Andel, they were in high school together, college together. They dreamed up this plan when they were at Calvin College, which was Amway, and they presented it. I think it was a business school class and they got a poor grade on the paper. But they launched it and it grew like crazy. And that's really Amway. They're worldwide and just a solid, solid— I would say beyond being a community partner, beyond being a philanthropist, you could say Rich DeVos and Jay Van Andel were city builders. You know, there was a day when Gerald R.

Ford was president. He wanted to do an outdoor event in downtown Grand Rapids, and the Secret Service were not They were saying, "Don't do it." And that was a wake-up call for Grand Rapids. And that's where Grand Action was born. And that's, you know, ultimately you can see the Van Andel Arena. And then all of a sudden you have a whole grouping of businesses and restaurants, entertainment places right around that. And then we did the convention center and DeVos Performance Hall 25 years ago. And you can see everything that's grown because of that. And now we're doing the amphitheater and soccer stadium.

The Greenway's gonna go through Grand Rapids. All these things, I think, are bringing— they're different phases of transition that are occurring. And it's really sparked by investments of Grand Action, which included these two very, you know, guys with great foresight.

Right. And you can't think Western Michigan and not think about Meijer.

Meijer. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Well, what's interesting—

which was Meijer Thrifty Acres.

Meijer Thrifty Acres. Yes. And so early in my career, I was the assistant city manager in Greenville, Michigan. That's where Meijer was started because Hendrick Meijer, who was Fred Meijer's father, owned a commercial duplex. So two, two spaces, one of them went vacant. So he started selling dry goods and then groceries out of it. And that was the birth of Meijer. Oh, man, they've had such a huge impact.

They They hold the Meyer Games, the Special Olympics, every year. It's a huge event in West Michigan. And they've helped fund things like the heart ward at Spectrum, now Corewell Hospital. So they've been heavily involved. Frederick Meyer loved trails. So there's trails all over West Michigan. Some go almost 200 miles and the Meyer— yeah.

In Franklin County, we had a Franklin Park Conservatory, which is one of the best in the nation. And you all have, as a result of civic contributions from the Meyer family—

Yes.

—pretty nice conservatory yourselves. Yes. Yeah.

I can't say enough about everything. In fact, right now, the Meyer Gardens, I think we're in our 25th year, and I think it was voted the number one statute, outdoor statutory, it's indoor and outdoor garden in the country. And so they're really killing it there. They do year-round programming. Did something called Enlighten. It's in the second year. The first year the FAA got involved because of all the bright lights that were going up in the sky. And, but they've been just a huge addition.

I think is, uh, what kid that grew up in Michigan didn't ride the horse that cost a penny?

They're still in the stores, one for one cent.

I don't know how long that horse would run for that one penny, but you put in one penny.

And I actually, one time we ran into Fred Meyer when my kids were real young in the Walker store, the Walker Meyer, and he was handing out Purple Cow certificates. They used to have a little ice cream shop in the Meijer stores called the Purple Cow. And he would hand these out to kids, just really enjoyed people, making kids happy.

I think in Ohio right now, you mentioned that there's a Meijer in Grove City where I live, and I think the horse is still there and it's still a penny, I believe. Which is a fun fact, I guess, about— about that retail chain with its roots. Is there a connection with Vernors in Grand Rapids? Ginger Ale, the original Ginger Ale.

Oh yes, absolutely. In fact, Brooks Bottling Company was the third largest soft drink bottler after Coke and Pepsi. And also squirt. That was invented by the Brooks Bottling Company. But yeah, I know there's a history with Vernors. I don't know a whole lot about that, but it's very popular in Grand Rapids. It is extremely popular.

And it's nationwide. And that happened over the years. Let's get back to what we do. And that's the professional management of cities and counties. Your relationship with the city of Grand Rapids, talk about that. We in Franklin County have what we call the Columbus Way. The city and the county and the private sector are able to work closely together and accomplish difficult things for the good of the community. You guys share a building with two different hallways.

We do, we do. We have a, the county has the 3-story building, the city has a 9-story, and we're connected at two levels. Well, three levels. Ottawa, Monroe, and then the tunnel level. So, yeah. So, Mark Washington, the city manager of Grand Rapids, I call him my brother from another mother. Yeah, we worked intently in the 4.5 years I've been back along with his mayor and my board chair to, to really improve and make those relationships much closer. When I worked for Kent the first time, it was like my friends ran the city, but our organizations were like this all the time.

And now we work together very well. And it's taken a lot of work on the part of Mark and I and our electeds to make that happen. But no, we have a great working relationship, which is key. Because if the city and county aren't together, you're not going to get the big things done. Yeah. Or they're not going to be done as well as they could have been.

Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Who runs Grand Rapids as far as fan base? Michigan State University or the University of Michigan, in your opinion?

Boy, you know, I do. I hate to admit this. But I do run into more Spartan fans than I do Michigan fans in our workforce. And somehow we have all these Ohio State people that slip into our workforce too. I'm not sure how that happens, but I talk to somebody, he got his Ohio State colors on and going, well, what the heck?

We need that on the application somewhere. They sneaking in. They sneaking in.

So yeah, I would say that in Grand Rapids, because of the heavily ag nature of West Michigan, Ottawa County is the number one ag-producing to our west, right on Lake Michigan, and we're number five. Allegan County is usually two or three. They're south of Ottawa County. Muskegon's up there a fair amount with ag. That we're gonna get more Michigan State people that basically graduates of the ag programs. Ag, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Future Farmers of America as a Michigan State University graduate. The Future Farmers of America were very prevalent, present on campus when I was there. And being a landmark land-grant university, that is what you get. Whereas the University of Michigan, they have a different vibe. No doubt about it. They have a different vibe. Families are divided in some cases, but you either on one side or the other. You don't normally root for both.

All right, what about the Lions?

I should just say, so I'll just say I graduated from both. Undergrad at Michigan, master's at State. So I'm a little divided, but I'm a Go Blue. The Lions. I'm a lifelong fan.

There's a lot of— that's why I brought them up.

I mean, I'm a lifelong fan, but growing up you had to have your second team because the Lions never won anything. So my second favorite team was the Raiders. So, but, uh, how exciting were the Lions, you know, a year ago? I mean, we, we were right there, right there.

I mean, it's like The Lions is like, it's a renaissance. Yeah. Even now, I mean, they didn't quite do everything people wanted, but if you've been a Lions fan for 40-plus years, you are like right now appreciating the fact that you got hope that you can actually make a run and actually show up in the Super Bowl with a break or two. Right.

Well, and we had a lot of injuries this year, especially on defense. It kind of killed us. But no, I think we have the right coaching and we have great players. So, you know, maybe it will be our year.

Coach Campbell is a great, the perfect fit for the city of Detroit and the coach of the Lions. Yeah. And that leadership means a lot, whether it's in business, whether it's in government. Leadership does matter. And that's one of the things that the Lions have not always had. Coaches on the sideline that gave, that inspired you, right? No, that's very true. It was waiting on Vince Lombardi for a long time in Detroit. He never walked in.

He never walked in the room. Coach Campbell was the closest thing. That's ever been there present as a charismatic leader. Right. For the Detroit Lions. The Pistons are having a rebirth as well. Yeah. And what's so funny about the Pistons is that they are turning out to be the Bad Boys 2.0.

Yeah. No, they going in and they, they play on intimidating and roughing up the other team.

You know, you look at it and we're kind of hitting all of them right now, right? So Lions are there just a little bit, you know, keep people healthy, get through the season. Pistons, you're right, it's kind of like the Renaissance of the Pistons, they're coming back. The Wings are having a good, you know, they're playing well, um Tigers had a decent year. I mean, so we finally have kind of all 4 teams that are doing good.

Yeah. At the same time. What is it that you enjoy most about Grand Rapids when you are away from the office?

You know, I enjoy the trails, the Greenway. We— when I was in Ottawa, I worked my whole time there to get the Greenway Trail from the beach in Grand Haven to downtown Grand Rapids. Couple gaps, but it's pretty much there. It will go on all the way to Owosso. And it links all the cultural, the big cultural institutions, thousands and thousands and thousands of acres of parkland and natural spaces. It's like a GIS map. There's gonna be a cultural layer, art layer, physical fitness, water trails, land trails. And I just like the— I like what we have to offer from, you know, you can step out of your office and be on a trail.

You can, a short drive, be in a beautiful park. And those are just nice places to just go and think sometimes. Yeah.

I'm going to ask you this question because I ask it often on Talk of the County. And I think in this case, I can venture to guess what your answer's going to be. Beach or mountains? Beach. You got Lake Michigan. I knew, I knew you. You're so close to the West Coast of Michigan.

When we go on vacation, there's usually a beach somewhere involved.

You got a beach somewhere.

You know, but we love the mountains too. But yeah, if I could only pick one, I'd pick the beach.

Um, what's your top song of all time? My top song of all time?

Whoa. Ah, my kids tell me I have the most diverse set of music they've seen. Um, of all time, what song would I want to listen to? Well, I'll tell you what, In the Big House.

Give me a couple at the end.

In the Big House. Have you heard that song?

No.

I don't know why they don't play it at Michigan games, uh, but it's a great song. Um, uh, you know, I really like, uh, God, well, we've been, uh, Stevie Wonder. We went to the first time he was in Grand Rapids. Yeah. And I love his music, you know, and seeing him live was one of the high points of just being in concerts, uh, or going to concerts my whole life. Yeah.

Um, so you're a harmonica fan then?

Yeah, love the harmonica. Uh, actually, my first 2 years in college were funded by a jazz scholarship. I was a saxophonist.

And so, out of saxophone? Yeah.

You still can play a little bit? Yeah. Uh, I haven't played a lot since my— I, I taught all 4 of my kids how to play sax. And they became pretty good sax players. And since then, since they started, since they went off into their adult lives, yeah, I haven't played as much.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, um, good. That's great. A jazz scholarship. That's pretty, that's pretty, that's pretty cool. Um, if you wasn't, uh, county administrator, if you wasn't in government, where would you think you would be? What would you be doing? What would you want to do?

You know, it's weird, but I think I would work the floor of the stock exchange in New York. I know that's an oddball thing because there's a— I still in some ways of trying to figure out what I'm going to be when I grow up. But that would be one that I think would be really exciting every day, making deals. Trading. I think I would love that work.

Yeah. I was asked that question earlier and I just a few days ago actually, and I said probably a commercial developer. Okay. I like to see things built. Large things being built. Like to play a role in large things being built. So. I can see that.

So it's not really an eyeball answer given that I know what is in the day of the life of a county administrator of a large and growing place. So we talked about all of the pressures, we talked about Kent County as a growing place. We talked about what it takes to be successful and most importantly, try to create a climate where your residents are not merely working towards survival, that you want everyone to thrive. And we have in Franklin County, you know, you think about vulnerable populations. I think about children and I think about our seniors and wanting to put them, both of those groups in the best positions possible to, and that you're at different stages when you talk about children and you talk about seniors. But you still want to see both of those populations thrive. You said that Grand Rapids and Kent County has a young population. Is there a number of seniors there or seniors have moved on to other communities?

Well, yeah, we have a senior population, but what we're finding with our lakeshore communities, so Allegan County, Ottawa County, Muskegon County, is that even though they're also rapidly growing, they're rapidly growing in the older demographic. So those are places that have become very popular as retirement communities. And I think for us, probably because of the more urban nature of Kent County, I think we're just attractive more to the younger crowd because of all the things to do. And even though, yes, we've had some issues with crime, Really, we're still known as a very safe community. And also, we have a number of highly ranked secondary schools. And so it's a good place to come for getting your kids educated. And so I think that, I just think that for the lakeshore has been more, I mean, there's a number of complexes near the lake where people can walk and see Lake Michigan and downtown Holland or downtown Grand Haven or Muskegon. So I just think that that style, a little bit slower, is what many seniors are looking for.

Um, where do you see Grand Rapids by 2050 in Kent County? What will it look like?

It's interesting you would ask that because we had a Kent County 2050 plan that we developed with all of our—

That's why, that's what, that's why I picked 2050, because every community have a 2050 plan.

You know, we, I think what, what our aspirations are is that we'll look back in 2050 and say, gosh, remember when people couldn't always get a ride, you know, that was available and affordable and reliable? And, and look at everybody in Kent County can now pick up the phone and get a ride, uh, pretty much whenever they want. Or as we look at housing, to look back and say, man, we had just had a hard, hard 20 years with housing, but look at now, housing is available, it's affordable. I mean, I think so we kind of looked back on some of those big challenges we have today. We've eliminated homelessness, and our educational system is known for being top in the state, ranked nationally. I mean, we just kind of looked at all the areas that we need to be great at in order to have a great county in 2050. And then we're working backwards from that with our partners to figure out what we all need to do to get there.

What will 28th Street look like 10 years from now? I'm not even going to take you to 2050.

You know, it's just so different now with just the impact of Amazon and online buying and You know, there's been a real transition. I'm going to suggest that we're going to see some mall areas, already we're seeing some of these transitions, that are now more residential communities, almost like little villages that have, you know, people don't want huge yards as much. You know, they want smaller living spaces, they want community, and they want some amenities nearby. Groceries and coffee shop and that kind of thing. I think as we go along 28th Street in 2050, we're going to see an area that's transformed from being a huge commercial to more residential living.

I know, you know, it's like the automobile strip for all the, all the major car dealers. Oh, yeah. You know, they were located on 28th Street. You had Woodland Mall was like the premier shopping destination in Western Michigan. And it's still—

so Woodland Mall is strong. They have the Apple mothership in Woodland Mall. And for example, the Rivertown Mall, which is closer to where I live and work in Granville, It's having its own transition. There'll likely be some housing in that mall. They have like a kids' play area. I think 4 or 5 of the big boxes are gone. And so, and of course we had Eastbrook across from Woodland. Eastbrook is really kind of just a couple stores left in there and it's called Centerpoint.

And then Rivertown suffering, but they're gonna make it. And then Woodland is just the flagship. It still is the flagship mall in West Michigan.

What other than 28th Street, where is now the, you know, these lifestyle centers are really popular. Yeah. Where is that next for Kent County occurring now? Well, where you got where people live, working, and playing. Yeah, that's what you've been touching on. Where people live, work, and play is what's in right now.

So I would say, you know, Alpine Avenue has been like a mini 28th Street for a long time. There's still development happening there. I would say though that the hot growth areas are the southern part. James— well, Jamestown and Ottawa next to Doar in Kent. And you have Gaines Township, Byron Township. Those areas are growing gangbusters. It's amazing. And so, there's a lot more happening in those communities.

Ada Township, wow. The manager there has worked with his board. They've created a downtown where there wasn't one. And it's very high-end. I mean, that's where you find a lot of the families that are prominent in Grand Rapids live. In Ada. And so it's just amazing what they created—

a downtown where one didn't exist.

Yeah, I mean, it's just amazing. So that's a real center there, Ada, and then Cascade Township is where the Gerald R. Ford International Airport is. And they kind of come right together and there's a lot of development across their border. So Ada, Cascade is one of those areas that's really—

Any big plans for the airport? Any major expansions? Oh yeah. Franklin County, we got a $2 billion terminal being built right now. The John Glenn International Airport. Without a growing, robust airport, it's tough to keep going to that next level.

So we are— I think they've almost completely finished the improvements to Concourse A, and it looks amazing and people love it. But we're also finishing a car rental facility and a cargo handling facility. Total investment of about $400 million in those things. But our whole strategic plan there is predicated on the air traffic control tower tower being replaced. Right. They've been working on that for decades and finally had it in our grasp. It was kind of in the approval stage of the FAA. And then basically with the last budget shutdown, we lost a little ground again.

And I say we, it's the airport authority now. When I worked at Kent the first time, it was a department, then it became an authority. So once the air traffic control tower is moved, and it's the second oldest in the nation, in our band of airport size. But we've been voted a couple years the best small airport in the US. Nice, nice. And yeah, just getting that. So I think it's within sight. We get that moved and then all of a sudden we have a whole rest of our strategic plan we can get moving on.

What does Grand Rapids have to do to maintain its position as one of the major cities outside of Detroit? If there's one single thing Grand Rapids has to, and Kent County has to do.

I think we have to lead transformation well because we have all the ingredients to be very successful, keep a fast pace of growth. But if we don't have the kind of leadership, and I'm holding myself accountable with that, that can solve some of these big problems. There are threats to growth. If we can't somehow figure out affordable housing, that will slow us down. We're being slowed down with manufacturing growth right now because we don't have land for manufacturers to build on. So I think it's that transition leadership that we have to stay on it. We need to have vision. We need to make sure people are bought in and accountable to the vision.

And if we can maintain that, I think that Grand Rapids will be that.

And maintain someplace for the deer to live.

That's right. Exactly.

Well, we're getting ready to wrap up, Al. This has been a great conversation. You've been, you know, we've been colleagues and we are both committed to the profession. Of public management, particularly the professional management of counties, big, small, medium, and everything in between in our roles with the National Association of County Administrators. As we wrap up, as I always try to provide an opportunity for my guests to share something about their city family themselves that would be interesting. So I'm going to leave that up to you. I have what I close, but before I close, it could be You know, I got one.

My son is the assistant village manager in Spring Lake. Now, he went off to the Army after getting a 2-year degree and was an Army sergeant. Yeah, it did 2 deployments to Afghanistan, 10 months each. Came back, thought he wanted to be an engineer. He landed in public management, and I'm just so proud of him, and I'm glad that we'll have kind of that family legacy. I love that. And yet I never— we have 4 kids and I never suggested public management to any of them. I just wanted them to make their own mind up.

They're all happy and in good jobs and completed their educations and all that kind of thing. So, but that for me is just a proud dad moment.

So close. Is he— your 4 kids still in the state of Michigan?

No, my eldest, our eldest daughter is department head in a company that makes huge underground mining vehicles in Ventura, California. And our youngest is a social worker for a 4-county CMH finishing her MSW. She's in India on a class project this week. And our other daughter is the head of a video department for a production company in Holland. So I have 2 in West Michigan, my 2 middles, and my oldest and youngest— well, You know, one's a 6.5-hour drive, but in the state, and the other's in California. California.

Okay. There you have it. It's been a great conversation, Ms. Van Roek. I wish Kent County well, wish Western Michigan well. We're far enough apart to where we don't really have to worry about competing. Even though we compete globally. We had to worry about global competition as much as the state next door.

So that's really not an issue. But so far, it was a great opportunity here to talk about our two communities, putting a special emphasis on you having an opportunity to talk about your community. So talking to county listeners, I'm going to close the way I always do. Do you, because no one else has time to.