Dr. Victoria “Dr. V” Mattingly is an organizational psychologist, keynote speaker, and author of Act Like an Ally / Work With an Ally—a two-in-one book that helps allies and partners build trust-based relationships that close inequality gaps at work. She blends candid stories with science-backed tactics to move companies beyond checkbox DEI into lasting culture change.
We all know people who call themselves allies. This conversation is about how to act like one—especially when ego and “policy” collide. Dr. V shares a painful early-founder moment: sending a “standard” NDA that created hidden barriers for a prospective Black partner, then doubling down instead of listening. Together we unpack what real allyship requires—trust first, partnership always, and action over labels.
Chapters:
00:00 — Labels vs. Actions: What “ally” really means
02:00 — The NDA misstep: when policy becomes a barrier
07:00 — Partnership over performance: allyship in action
10:00 — Trust first, paperwork later
16:00 — “Privilege” without the eye-roll: a clearer definition
22:00 — Allyship is behavior, not identity
30:00 — The flip-book: Act Like an Ally / Work With an Ally
But for all of that talk, when the rubber meets the road, how are you actually showing up? In a lot of instances, what we say about ourselves is completely different than how we actually show up and behave.
In today's conversation, we're gonna actually dig into what it means to be an actual ally versus just talking about being an ally. Dr. Victoria Mattingly joins us and shares with us a story of how early in her founder career she was confronted with a situation where she admittedly did not act like an ally.
And what we're gonna do in this conversation is highlight what it means to be an actual ally versus just talking about being an ally.
elps transform organizations [:
Together. Known for blending candid storytelling with science-based strategies. Dr. V inspires audiences to move beyond surface level initiatives and create lasting culture shifts, whether on stage or in print. Her work equips leaders with the tools to drive transformation, taking a human first research base, and authentic approach. Welcome to the show, Dr. V.
Dr. Victoria Mattingly : Thanks so much for having me.
Dr. Jim: So I'm I'm looking forward to this conversation and with two giant nerds on the show.
We'll try to keep it pretty close to the chest and not go wandering off into random directions. You know how this works on our show. This is all about what you did that almost got you fired. So why don't you lay it on us and tell us what that moment was in your career.
Dr. Victoria Mattingly : [:
I ran my own consulting firm for about six years, a little over six years. So I couldn't get fired technically, but like I could have gotten canceled, and it was just not a good move for me or my career, or building my network, professionally. What I did was I was trying to.
Build partnerships. That was new. It was just, I was a solopreneur at the time and there was a woman in my field, in my city and she was also black, and we had a really great kickoff call and we're like, we're gonna partner together, we're gonna
like,
put some content out together. Maybe we were like, build together or go after contracts together.
're all protecting ourselves [:
She responded back and said the. Effort that she would've had to take and the money she would've had to spend on a lawyer to read through this NDA and figure out if she was gonna assign it or not, was putting un undue burden and, undue burden and just like. Barriers in the way of someone who already is facing barriers as a black female entrepreneur in a already like marginalized market and space, right?
So as a good ally in that moment, what I should have done is say. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I had no idea let's get on a call. Let's figure out a way of working together, moving forward, right? But instead, I doubled down and I reached out to another black woman. Entrepreneur in our field and said, can you believe this?
d her with my story of white [:
I just doubled down and I was defensive and I put my heels in the dirt and I didn't learn, I didn't grow or foster that partnership. And on it was just a bad move, especially as someone who has made a career on inclusive behaviors and what it means to be an ally, and that was a really missed opportunity for allyship.
So that's my big screw up. That's my big screw up. It still really resonates with me to this day.
at annoys me about that word [:
And you said you weren't a good ally in that moment. Tell us a little bit more about what that actually looks like being a good ally in action
you
Dr. Victoria Mattingly : kind of
already answered it, which, a true ally is. Someone who acts is someone who not just acts and does what they think is best, but does what's best for the individual or the group that they are trying to serve.
And the way that allies make sure the actions they take are going to serve the people they're trying to help, the people they're trying to support. You have to work in partnership, so if you are. Maybe a white ally who wants to, help with everything going on with ICE right now.
o is find the organizations, [:
And work with them, right? That's how to be a good ally. So it's all about partnership. I could have partnered with this person, learned from this person, continued a collaborative relationship, a professional relationship with this individual, and I dropped the ball. I, I didn't build a partnership.
I. As I said, double down on, on my identity, my fragility, as opposed to working together across our differences. And that's what allyship is all about.
Dr. Jim: there's a bit of when you're describing this, there's a bit of it that strikes me as in that moment you probably at some level wanted to kinda win the debate.
process of that conversation [:
Hey, maybe the NDA, depending on the circumstances, isn't necessary required or is an obstacle.
Dr. Victoria Mattingly : Just what you just said, I should have been implementing the NDA later on in the process once there's trust built. In my latest book, I have a whole chapter for allies on how to build trust, and I have a complimentary chapter for that other side of allyship, what I call the partner on how to.
other businesses and bigger [:
And people with more, business experience than I had. I had my PhD,
I didn't,
I didn't have my MBA, right? So I was protecting myself even though I wrote it to protect both parties, right? I forgot in that moment as a white woman with lots of shared characteristics with this other individual, aside from our race with lots of shared characteristics.
In that key difference, our race, I held the privilege in America, if you are white, you hold white privilege. People hate to admit that, and I don't see privilege as a bad thing. It's bad when you don't leverage it properly. It's bad when you use it at the expense of others. And in this case, I held privilege that I forgot to pay attention to.
and then we could have had a [:
So there's a number of things I definitely learned and do differently now as a result of that mess up.
Dr. Jim: I think the thing that I'd like the most about what you're saying is your comment about trust and that taking the necessary amount of time to build trust first.
Before you go for the highest level ask. Yeah. And the reason why this stands out to me is that I have this conversation with a lot of founders that I talk to as well, where, they're trying to grow their businesses and everything like that, and they're going through the motions of all the different things leading up to the ask, just so they can get to the ask of, Hey, do you want to work on something together?
ing on. So I really like how [:
And that was when you were confronted with that response from your potential business partner. You went back to somebody in your network and you vented to them about what was going on. And then based on that conversation, you went back and doubled down. So you created this little drama circle that, made things worse.
Arguably in that moment. Why did you feel like that was the right move to go and check with your network and like pressure test? What happened? What were you trying to accomplish in that conversation?
Dr. Victoria Mattingly : My ego was hurt. My, my identity is someone who wants to be an ally. And this goes back to something you said earlier about the concept of allyship.
e work. And for someone that [:
That wrecked my self perception. That my self identity, right? And so I, instead of paying attention to how my actions are impacting those around me. Instead of paying attention to the bigger picture here of how I can have the opportunity to be an ally and, and do the right thing and learn from the situation.
I needed validation that I was a good white ally, a good white person, right? And I burdened another black woman in my field that's an already marginalized field, right? To give me that validation. So I didn't feel. Like a bad person, a bad ally anymore. And there's this great concept in a book called The Person You Mean to Be by Dolly Chung.
ng a good-ish person. And if [:
It just wasn't, it was a different intention. Or like it, I didn't mean to, or I didn't realize, or whatever it was. So you're like trying to talk your way out of it. But if you're a good-ish person, you could acknowledge, I'm trying my best here, but I'm gonna mess up from time to time. When I do, and I take that mental approach to it, I can look at it as a behavior that I can then learn from and change rather than this is a blow to my self-identity.
an't be racist because I'm a [:
What are some things that. Can be done in those moments to zoom out and get a view of the bigger picture instead of reacting to what someone else is saying.
gger than yourself. And so I [:
And allyship is not for everybody. Like I, I always say, whereas workplace inclusion training or like culture training or things like that. Yes. Everyone should go. It should be mandatory. But with allyship, we really gotta commit to doing this. 'cause at the end of the day, it's pretty thankless, right?
And if you're doing it right. You're giving up resources and power and platform right to, to give more to others who don't have it, or have less of it because of our identities. And so I think it's really coming down to the why. Why do I wanna be an ally? Why do I wanna be focused on something bigger than just me and my ego and my self image?
k on the horse as quickly as [:
I quickly corrected it, and then at the end of the evening and end of our shift I even said I'm really sorry for misgendering you earlier. And they were like, oh, it's fine. No big deal. And that was it, right? And then I moved on. I didn't lambast myself. I didn't cry, straight person tears for getting it wrong and making a mistake.
I try to fix it in the moment. I apologize later, and then I moved on. So I think having that resilience is really important when things go down, knowing that we can move on past this, as long as I learn and don't repeat, that's when we have a problem. If you make a mistake. You should have the grace from others to be able to learn from that and grow from that.
mistake over and over again, [:
Dr. Jim: when I take what you're saying and distill it down to.
Bumper sticker moments. You're almost describing the discipline of becoming stoic, but also operating in like a high accountability operating module model. Meaning you own the things that you do, you acknowledge the things that you do you apologize for the things that you do, and then you move on.
And try not to do those things again. That's how I took it. There's been a couple of instances in this conversation where you've brought up the the word privilege, and there are certain segments that will hear the word privilege and they will roll their eyes as they're listening to this conversation about privilege, about accountability, about allyship, and think it's just all a bunch of woke bs.
e collar, lower middle class [:
Dr. Victoria Mattingly : When it comes to privilege somehow. It became interpreted that if one is called privileged, it means you didn't have to struggle.
It means you didn't have hardship. It means you, you weren't poor, you weren't blue collar, you didn't pull yourself by bootstraps or all the things. And so that's where that I'm a good person or I'm not a privileged person. I worked really hard, like that's my identity and you're calling out that might not be who I am.
So there's that piece. And. Also with privilege. Privilege doesn't mean that you haven't struggled or worked hard to get to where you're at in life. It just means that your blank didn't get in the way. Your race, your gender, your sexual orientation.
ingroup and outgroup. And if [:
kind of
blind to it because it didn't get in the way of your success.
But also you didn't have to overcome it.
Dr. Jim: that's a really good breakdown. And I appreciate you sharing that. We covered a fair amount of ground about the ins and outs of what happened. You created a little bit of a drama circle. You doubled down and you went back and stood your ground on the NDA issue, what happened next? How did it resolve itself?
where it goes. And also the [:
That shame has then carried with me the desire to never do that again. Even though of course I've messed up since then, we, I'm only human, right? But when it's clear to me that I'm in the privileged position, I have an opportunity to make life a little bit easier with, for someone who doesn't have that privilege.
And I need to accept that and own that and feel good about that, right? Because it's I think people get so up in arms about privilege 'cause it insinuates. Things aren't balanced. Things aren't equal, and I think that's all we really want. At the end of the day, people who fight for social justice, inclusion, belonging, we just want things to be fair.
nd I don't think people want [:
Dr. Jim: as we were talking, I started thinking about. What does privilege actually look like? And it reminded me of of a video I saw, and the video was of this high school coach or something like that, and he's got a line of 20 students and he said.
I have a hundred dollars bill and whoever wins this race is gonna get this a hundred dollars bill. But before I say start, I'm gonna ask a series of questions. And for each of these questions where it applies to you, you take two steps forward. And he went through 10 different questions. Questions like, if you have a household with two parents, take two steps forward.
If you've never had to worry about where your next meal was gonna come from, take two steps forward. And he asks a series of these questions that are, 20 or so and before he. Lets everybody run their race. What
you see
% [:
And all of those examples are, small examples of privilege that stack up over time that impact how far and how fast you might be able to get to a given direction. So I really like how you brought that out and it triggered that that, that piece to me. So for people that might be hearing this and thinking, oh, I, I'm a blue collar person, or I was poor and I never ca got anything easy, all of those can be true and are true and.
You can still have privilege based on some of these other things that we don't automatically cons consider that. So really good stuff there. I wanna spring forward a little bit. So you went through that experience, it taught you some lessons as an early stage founder. It taught you some lessons as far as how to build successful partnerships, what are some of the big takeaways from that experience that shaped how you moved in your partnership efforts in your.
Business efforts as you went forward?
gly : So first and foremost. [:
That's how you know you're getting it right. When someone else says, Hey, you are my ally back there. Thank you. When it comes to allyship, we all can play a part it's behavior oriented and that is shines through in all of my content, my [00:23:00] keynotes, the way I talk about allyship and workplace inclusion, it's action oriented, it's behavior. Inclus, Lytics, like that was a huge premise of Inclus Lytics. My first book, we needed to find inclusion as the behaviors.
That result in feeling valued, respected, seen, and heard, right? So it's a behavioral approach and I didn't behave like an ally. And so now that content is so much more salient to me because I felt it when I didn't get it right. So there's that. Also my former business partner. Is a black woman.
And so the way I approached her about joining the business and being, a co-owner of Mattingly Solutions, in different conversations we have, whether strategic or tactical or, I was always just aware that, she's a black woman. Even though we're business partners and we, are in this together, there's still that.
a difference, right? So just [:
But I also truly believe. A lot of people got left out of DEI and that's a lot where a lot of this backlash is coming up. People felt excluded from DEI, whereas allyship, it invites everyone in. We can all either be an ally or work with an ally depending on who holds the privileged identity in any sort of situation, right?
And allyship could very much be the next step, the next chapter of DEI. 'cause it'll bring in people who are initially left behind. And I think we could have done a better job as a field with bringing more people along and allyship can do just that.
Dr. Jim: No, that's a really great point.
And as I [:
And it doesn't really have any impact on the business level. And the reason why I frame it that way is that you've actually written a couple of books now that actually brings it to. A quantifiable level in terms of the impact of doing this work within the business context. So share with us a little bit more about how this shows up in both of your books.
etter humans at work? And so [:
Very closely aligned paths as well, right? But there's so many other ways to do that on top of inclusion and allyship, right? There's culture, there's leadership, there's team building, there's communication, there's there's so many other avenues that we can take. And so this is just.
The avenue that I took and the business proposition is when we treat our people well, when we treat our people like humans, which means acknowledging we have different identities and different barriers and privileges and all the things, people are more likely to stay around. They're more likely when they feel seen and heard, they're more likely to stay.
engaged, and how can we tie [:
And if we spend a year focusing on women leaders in our organization, which you can't do anymore, by the way, in the us, like that's a no-no. But say it's a few years ago, or it'll be a few years from now, you can have a women in leadership program. To be able to see the year over year growth of not only the number of women leaders, but are the more gender diverse leadership teams outperforming the more homogenous leadership teams, right?
And so there's ways of looking at the data and it really demonstrating that it drives business value. When we take care of your people. It drives business value and inclusion and allyship is just one way of doing that.
Dr. Jim: It's interesting to me that there's still a debate about the business impact of this in general because I remember, and this might be a little dated, but I remember reading some research a handful of years ago that talked about quota attainment of sales teams and it compared.
Male led sales teams [:
And they take the. The uninformed side of, oh I want the best qualified people Making the connection that, you know, just because you have a diverse team doesn't mean that you have people that are unqualified. In fact, the more diverse your teams are, the higher your output is gonna be. But anyways, the people that make that argument, if you pose the neutral question to them, if I could tell you a way to get eight to 15% more output.
se my profitability eight to [:
And that happens across like any number of different different sectors and functions that the more diverse your teams are, the more, shareholder value, profitability, all of these different metrics that you measure exist for those companies. So the fact that we're still talking about this is is interesting to me that the data is pretty clear on it, and yet people want to talk about other things that don't matter. When you think back to. This whole experience and also what you learn from this, if you're coaching an earlier leader, a solopreneur or a business founder that's encountering these sort of situations and they want to internalize how to be an effective ally, what are the two or three things that you would tell them that they should be thinking about and putting into practice so that they aren't making the same mistake that you made early on in your in your founder life?
ingly : So going back to the [:
Being aware of. Privileges, I hope, but also the gaps that others are experiencing. So just having that awareness and taking, as we said, that big step back, that big picture view. It's not, I'm not a bad person because I'm white. White privilege is bad, but I'm not inherently bad because I'm white.
And it's it's doing these, it's unraveling, as I said before, our behaviors from our identity. So we can see the bigger picture. So that's the first thing. And the second thing it's. Action In partnership. It's partnership and action. It's both ways, right? Like it it's actionable.
It's not who [:
Dr. Jim: Before we wind down, you have two books. Tell us a little bit more about what's what people can expect out of both books inclus Lytics, and your latest book.
Dr. Victoria Mattingly : Inclus Lytics is very much for. Organizations, leaders that are trying to take a more data-driven approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion.
of the best practices in the [:
So that's a shame. But when things shift. Lytics will continue to be an excellent resource and there's a lot of DEI being done quietly and behind the scenes right now. And so those people are still using the book and getting value from Inclus Lytics. The second book, it's the second and third book 'cause it's two books in one called Act Like an Ally, work with an Ally, and it uses a, what they call a doey D publishing style.
Here's the app, like an ally book, and then you flip it over and it's the work with an ally book. And the books you flip it back and forth. The books reference each other, and then when you get in the very middle, it's actually the end of both books. And you just read a whole book about.
up being an ally to you, or [:
That there can very much be on the other side as well. So they're incentivized when they get to the end of the first book to then go back and read the other book. So I'm really excited to make it a very visceral experience. How allyship is that two-sided partnership? It takes both parties to get it right.
We all have roles and responsibilities in that, and this book truly captures that both in its content but also in its design.
Dr. Jim: I appreciate you sharing that with us, Dr. V. If people want to connect with you and continue the conversation, what's the best way for them to do that?
m really active on LinkedIn. [:
Dr. Jim: I appreciate you hanging out with us and when I think through this conversation that we had, there's one big lesson that I take away from this. There's actually quite a few lessons, but I think I think one of the smaller lessons that everybody needs to understand is that you don't you don't give yourself a label.
It's earned by the things that you do in the presence of other people who don't have the privilege that you have and the way that you actually pull that off. And this is reflected in what you learned from your experience is that you have to disconnect from the immediate emotion and the attack on your ego that you might be perceiving and take an accountability viewpoint into what's happening.
that should be crossing your [:
And I think that's a important framework, or at least a mental model that people can apply when they're in the midst of these scenarios where they might not recognize that, Hey, I did something that I screwed up. And I should be looking at a way to remedy that instead of getting caught in my own ego.
So I appreciate you sharing all of that, and that's what I took away from this conversation. For those of you who've been listening to this conversation, we appreciate you hanging out. If you like the show, make sure you leave us a five star review on your favorite podcast player. Tune in next time, where we'll have another great leader hanging out with us and sharing with us those moments in their career where they thought they would get themselves fired, but it actually ended up.
Allowing them the grace and the wisdom to hit fast forward on their career.
