Host Mike Graen and Matthew Russell continue their discussion on the challenges and progress in supply chain data sharing, particularly the use of serialized data and EPCIS standards. They highlight the slow adoption of data capture and communication protocols, especially in retail environments.

The conversation touches on the potential for RFID technology to improve asset protection, inventory accuracy, and reduce shrinkage. They also discuss the synergies between different industries, such as aviation and food, and how innovations in one sector can benefit retail. The importance of starting with simple, proven RFID applications is emphasized, along with the educational opportunities for students in the Auburn RFID lab.

I got it, got it. Talk to me about outside the

store, because, again, we started in a manufacturing

facility, to a distribution facility, to a customer

warehouse, or retailer warehouse, to the store. Now

we're already kind of back in the store again, looking for

other use cases. Are you starting to see? And I'll put

you on the spot a little bit. I don't know when we published the

chip project. I want to go three years ago. I may be wrong. When

did we do chip?

Think it was four or five years ago? Gosh,

yeah, I need to just retire because I'm getting too

old. I can't remember how long you've been at the lab. Can't

remember, the chip project was, but the whole idea behind the

chip project is literally as things move through the node. I

think at the time, it was leveraging either EPCIS, which

is a global standard for sharing data, or blockchain. We got kind

of a damper with the blockchain technology, but the real value

is starting to actually send throughout the supply chain the

serialized data, because we really never have done that

before. They use the serialized data in each one of the nodes.

But for example, suppliers and retailers, for the most part,

aren't sharing that. Are you starting to see that trend

change? I hope it does, but I haven't seen as much as I would

like to in terms of real, live examples of that.

Yeah, it's been slower than I think we would

have liked the challenge there is, I really think it's data

capture, and it's, there's, there's not really a great way.

We've gone back and forth with this, but to isolate cartons or

boxes in a distribution center, a lot of the times that's just

not feasible. You have entire pallets of product that are that

are moving through and unless at some point in the supply chain,

or really the life cycle of a packed box or carton, we need to

have an association of here's the unique serial identifiers

for what's in this box. And I think that's the real challenge

of it is, is a lot of the times there's, there's not a great

place to do that, and we've been trying to encourage and push

suppliers to record that data and begin moving in that

direction. But I think that's been that's been slow, but the

data capture is definitely a challenge there. Because when

I've got a conveyor line moving a couple 100 feet per minute,

and I've got 10 boxes all right up on each other, I don't know

if an item is in one box or the next in isolation, becomes a

challenge there. And then I think too. The other challenge

is data communication. And like you said, we're really pushing

for EPCIS as the data standard for that, but the methods to

communicate that there's just not a good standard protocol or

way to communicate that back and forth like EDI is. We can't

throw in a bunch of EPCs to EDI and expect that to work. So I

think that's a challenge. I think it makes a lot more sense

for this to start in vertically integrated retailers, where they

have more control over their supply chain and they can

communicate that data back and forth a little bit easier. I

think there's a demand for all of this, but it's, it's just

been slow to to be adopted

which is really, I think part of the reason it's

been slow is people still uncovering opportunities to

leverage it in the retail store. Oh, man, I could do this and

this, and so I get so preoccupied with that, but I

can't remember the numbers without looking them up, but the

claims and the product authentication numbers that we

came up with with Chip were astronomical. They were huge

numbers, massive amount of numbers across the industry. And

everybody's talking about, yeah, I shipped 100 they ordered 100 I

shipped 100 now they're claiming that they only got 80. I got no

proof. And so I just don't know what that's going to actually

happen. I do understand some retailers, mega retailers, they

may have 100 different doors that they receive product on.

How in the world do I put infrastructure in that? Because

you're not going to cycle count, that you're not going to want

that, right? That's no way you're gonna do something like

that. So you talk about portals or tunnels or all this other

kind of stuff, it's just we haven't figured that out yet. I

think it's a technology problem, and I do believe it's a data

challenge, and I think it'll what will drive.

sharing problem

Is the demand for from suppliers, for that kind of

information from the retailers? Because, you know, we see more

and more suppliers tagging with RFID, and they're saying, Where,

where is that value unlocked for them, and it's going to become a

value add for retailers to be able to communicate serialized

data back and forth with their suppliers, and I think that'll

be one of the driving factors for that.

I don't want to call anybody out, but if I work for

Hanes or Fruit of the Loom or PVH or something like that, and

I knew exactly what the SG 10s were that left to go to whatever

retailer, and they called up and go, we didn't get them all. I

go, here's the 150 SG 10s we sent. If you've read these SG

10s, we are paying you $1 I mean, I don't know how you go

about doing that, but there's a proof of delivery almost. It

says I put them on a truck and the truck got sealed. That's

when you took possession of them. And if you don't have

them, these are the 150 or whatever, SG, 10s. I'm not

paying you $1 until you can prove to me you don't have

those. And if you didn't get those, then maybe you ought to

talk to UPS and FedEx, because they're the ones that shipped. I

don't know. I don't want to stir stuff up, but to me, this whole

claims thing goes away real, real quick. If I can prove to

you that these are the actual serial numbers of what I sent

and it matches exactly what you ordered. There should be no

reason why you should do that. So

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and we'll switch gears here a little bit. We

talked a little bit before about the various verticals. You have,

aviation, quick serve, restaurant, etc. And I'm not

going to ask you details about this, because you already you

got more than to say grace over. I just can't answer. I just

can't answer but, but here's one question I do have. The question

is, with these new verticals, kind of being stood up, are you

finding any synergies between them that you could help some of

these or are things that they're learning, can they help some of

the retail, for example? So that's the question, because

some of these are very different. You know, the number

of seat belts in an airplane is a much different thing than how

many socks are in a store. But at the same point in time you

may be learning this, that there's a couple of things

they're learning from the vertical standpoint that we can

reapply for retail. Is there any examples that you got of those?

Yeah, I think one example that we've talked

about a lot lately is our partnership with Los Alamos. So

we're working with them, and this is public information, but

they need to track some difficult to tag materials that

are very important to keep track of. And you know, I think

hopefully what we'll see at the end of that is the innovation

that comes out of that project. Would, you know, trickle down

into retail, because a metal canister for them might be

similar to a product that we have in a retail store, good

point. And so I think we from like a packaging and a product

standpoint, we're going to see some crossover there, as far as

the challenges with with some of the items that need to be

tagged, and some of the, some of the innovation that comes out of

that. But beyond that, I mean, I think there is a lot of, you

know, general carryover, but I'm not as involved, you know,

closely, like on the food side. I think one thing on the food

side that we'll we'll see, is some of the data, standard

innovation, and some of the work there is probably going to cross

over into the retail space as well, because a lot of

retailers, you know, also have food products in their stores.

And so if we have, you know, McDonald's, or whoever it is

tagging their product, those same standards and same, you

know, methods of tagging might also apply to retailers that

would be looking to do the same. So I think we're seeing cross

industry standardization in that way as well.

Yeah, and again, I don't want to get into specifics

so that that you know would be an issue. So if this is the

case, let me know. But I believe the demo I saw at the Auburn lab

at McDonald's, or it was golden foods, I guess, was actually

putting the RFID tag in the corrugate of the box, and all

they did is make a mark go the tags right here, right when we

start thinking about things like asset protection and protecting,

because if somebody's going to steal TV and they, you know,

it's the RFID tag, they're going to rip off that tag and throw it

away and walk out the store with it, right? But if we put that

tag in the corrigor Number one, it lowers the overall cost of

the cost of the tag for the manufacturer. Right. Number two,

it potentially becomes almost a indisputable asset protection

tag. I would think so that's what I'm always looking for. And

man, if Los Alamos could do cans of stuff, then I got to quit

saying we'll never skin we're never going to tag cans of soup,

because maybe they can, who knows, but I've always been soup

and watermelon are never going to get tagged. Well, maybe they

will be. Who knows? Could be so I think those are the kinds of

things that would be helpful. You know, as we have these board

meetings and educate with retailers, here's two or three

things we learned about with these other verticals that we

ought to be able to reapply. And I would imagine most of the

sharing is going the other way. Here are the things we learned

in retail that you guys can reapply. I'm sure that's where

most of it, because most of it is in retail, but I think that's

another opportunity. So we sort of touched on this a little bit

asset protection. I've had a couple of podcasts with Joe Cole

and Randy Dunn. I've got one scheduled for this week, this

Thursday, actually, incredible amount of work that they're

doing about being able to authenticate that that product

was theirs, that it left the store without being paid for,

even recouping their merchandise, because they can

prove that they bought it, they owned It, it got stolen, etc.

What are the other creative things we're going to be talking

about? Is Okay, what else can you do with RFID? Any thoughts

on some of the asset protection use cases? Because, to me, the

reason you do a cycle count, once a week, once a month is

because suddenly you don't have possession of what you thought

you had, right? So are you hearing from other retailers

again? Don't nothing confidential about how they're

thinking about leveraging RFID from from an asset protection

standpoint.

Yeah, I could sit and listen to Joe Cole talk

about this stuff all day. So whoever's listening to this

needs to go and listen to his podcast as well. More thing than

anything I could ever talk about. But, yeah, I think it's

the when you, like you said, we're doing these cycle counts.

It's really a snapshot maybe once a week or a month, or

whenever that is in between that inventory degrades. So I think

looking at fixed infrastructure, or, you know, points in the

store where we're continuously monitoring what's going in and

out. I think we have visibility into some of those asset

protection use cases. And, you know, we see simple things like

point of sale bypasses, like if an item goes straight to the

exit of the store without going through point of sale, maybe it

gets flagged for video review, and then they can go back and

look at it. So there's definitely retailers that are

looking at that from an asset protection standpoint. And then,

you know, also finding product in in the field, like in these

flea markets or fence stores or shipping ports or whatever it

is, you know, assuming that they're stolen goods, and then

tracking those back to see what stores and when they came out of

those stores, and being able to identify that. I think there's a

compelling use case. I think for retail overall, there's just a

lot more conversation now on, hey, let's focus on some of

these high shrink items and figure out how we can tag those,

because they see the value in that visibility. And now the

conversation is not turning to how do we do this? It's, how do

we get tags on the items so that we can track more stuff or have

more visibility into this and a lot of those high shrink items,

like cosmetics items are not currently being tagged for most

retailers. So I think the conversation OTC goods, a lot of

those get stolen. A lot there's a lot of interest now in those

areas in seeing how they can be tagged to unlock, maybe

inventory accuracy, but but really looking at shrink and

almost having that be the primary business driver, you

know, not that it. Yeah, I don't know whether that's justified or

not. I don't know, but I think those are a lot of the

conversations that the industry is having now. And I think there

is a lot of benefit and value for asset protection that we

just haven't seen yet. It's, it's very interesting to see

what these retailers are coming up with,

yeah, very, very true, and how they, how they

address that with their customers. I'll tell you this

brief story. It has a point. But as you know, my son the market

Asset Protection Manager. When he was a store Asset Protection

Manager, he was actually back in the toy department. He saw a guy

literally climb up on the bike rack where the bike racks are,

get a bike down wheel, it out the automotive exit, right? And

we thought. That was cool. That was strange. I know he didn't

pay for it. He he literally, then walked, my son walked very

quickly to the front desk. And sure enough, the guy comes in

the front door and goes, my wife bought this for me two days ago.

I don't like it. I don't have the receipt. I just want to

return my money. Okay? And delays. Oh yeah, happy to do

that. I don't even tell you where retailer it is and go

happy do that, and my son's, excuse me, were you not just

back there in automotive and bicycles? Did you not just grab

that bike and go through the automotive area? Oh, no, no,

that wasn't me ago, really, because I'm pretty sure it was

you. It was your bike. It was your I got you. And he goes,

crap, you got me. What are my options? Go well, you got two

choices. You can leave the merchandise. Thank you very much

for returning it to us. Or we can call the cops, whichever way

you want to do it. Now, leave the bike I'm out of here, right?

But, but if you know that that particular item was bought

because you have a serialized item and it leaves the store,

you more than happy give them money back. But if you know, I

left the store and never went through a point of sale, you

have an opportunity to question them and say, I don't know how

you do this. You know, without offending people, if you don't

have a receipt, we're not giving your money back, period. In

order to do that, Matthew, you've got to be able to capture

that. SG, 10 at the register. That, to me, is the unlock the

industry has to figure out, because various fixed readers

don't do it right. The old flower pot readers don't do it

because the bike or the television or whatever is going

to be in the cart, and so it's not going to be on the scanner.

So that, to me, is what we figured out when we start to

link the SG 10 at the register, whether it's through RFID or

through a barcode or GS one, you know, Sunrise 2027, and the

exit. Now we're talking about accountability. We know that

that item was never bought, just like Lowe's is using Project

unlock for if you don't scan that item, it won't unlock the

tool, and you can't use it. So, very creative things that people

are really coming up with? Well, Matthew, I want to wrap this up

by a question, which is okay, if you had an opportunity to talk

to new retailers or CPG suppliers that don't even know

what Auburn is, because guess what, there's still people out

there who have no idea that there's an Auburn RFID lab. And

for two reasons, how can you help them? And number two, what

are the opportunities for the some 100 students or so that you

have now working in the lab, because Justin always says all

the time, you know, take a student home with you. Well,

those kind of throw those. But part of this is you've got 100

students that are learning about RFID in a real, live

environment. You don't have to teach them about RFID. If you're

going to start up an RFID program, hire one of these

students who absolutely understands it. So two things,

number one, what's How does people who are not part of the

Auburn RFID get involved with it? Number two, how do you get

to learn which students are potentially available for

adoption or hiring, or whatever you want to say, because I think

there's a real opportunity to take advantage of that.

Yeah, yeah. I think the first one you can

reach out to us, you can find our contact information at our

website, which is, think, rfid.auburn.edu Okay, so you can

find all the contact info there. And you know, if you're a

retailer, things that we outlined, well, making sure that

you're using the right RFID tags, making sure that you're

aligned with the rest of the industry, making sure that your

suppliers are compliant. You know, that's really what we

focus on, and also driving just the general business case as

well. So reach out to us, contact us there, um, and then

for our students, we push job postings to our students all the

time. So we've got a sort of an internal channel for that to

push those through. So again, you can head to our website and

contact us if you have a job posting, and then we'll, uh,

we'll share that, or an internship, or, anything like

that, like Mike, like you said, we've got 100 students, and

we've got so many that graduate each semester, and they really

do have that real world experience and just experience

with RFID that really no other student is going to have unless

you know they've done some sort of a hands On project like that.

So

I think you've got and you've got different teams,

right? So you've got sort of, I don't know what the team's name

is, I'm sure I've screwed this up, but you've got some real

heavy duty engineering types that really understand how RFID

works. From a technical aspect. You got some people that are

used to doing basically store audits, so they understand how

the stores work and how they leverage RFID, etc. You have an

analytics team. What else am I missing? You've got, you got

different buckets of people that are doing different work. So

it's not like every student is in, you know, interchangeable.

If you got somebody who you want a very heavy duty engineering

project, you're probably talking with those folks, rather than

people who've been doing store on. Right?

Yeah, we've we've got all sorts of students

in the background, like their majors. They come from all the

different colleges in in Auburn. So we've got, like, flight

majors. We've got a few of those. So if anyone's looking

for a pilot, we've got plenty of those. And then all sorts of

computer science, engineering, data analytics business. It's a

really diverse background of students. And so, you know,

whatever positions are out there, we've probably got a

student that would fit that one way or another. And a lot of the

times, honestly, they've got their choice. When they're

graduating, they're like, Okay, which job do I want to pick

from? Which is a great to have? Yeah, that they, you know, they

they see that the benefit of the work that they're doing through

that. So I think it's, it's really gratifying. Well,

it gives, it gives the it gives the companies real

life, especially if they do an internship or something. They're

a known entity coming in. They know they know them. They've

done the work. It almost becomes a, you know, almost a given that

they're going to join the company at some level and may be

involved with some kind of inventory management, or RFID,

or whatever that happens to be. Matthew, you want to wrap this

up, what is my favorite question? What are that? What's

on your mind that I didn't ask anything hot that's going on?

You go, I wish you would ask me about that, or any other kind of

closing comments that you might have.

And we've, we've covered a lot of it, okay,

I will say one of the closing comments is, and we get asked

this a lot by retailers, is, is, where do I start? You know? How

do I do this? And what I tell them is, start with what's easy.

Start with what's been done. You don't need to reinvent the

wheel. You don't need to go and try to figure out how to tag the

untagable. But you know that the path has been paved for RFID and

I think it's it's good to start with that path that has been

paved, and with you know what you know you can do, and then

progress from there. So I think, you know, closing comments,

that's my one word of advice for any retailer that's out there.

Um, don't bite off more than you could chew. Start small and

then, and then grow from there. And

just so we're just so we're clear when you say

smarts, you know what's been reapplied. A given is apparel,

right? Apparel is pretty much all saturated. When you say RFID

to an apparel supplier, they don't look at you like, what the

heck was that? Let me. Let me get back to you know what it is.

Number two, doing a clear cycle count with a handheld device to

incorrectly update your own hands. That's like Jack stander.

That's like the basics, right? You knew a lot of stuff from

that, but that's really what you're talking about, of don't

go off and try and figure out how you're going to do you know,

pain cans start with things that we know are pretty, pretty

mature, and people have been doing it for a long time. So,

yeah, well, Matthew, thank you very much. I know you're

traveling today. Appreciate you. You know, taking time out of

your busy schedule. Thank you for everything you've done, and

we just will continue to stay in touch every six to 12 months and

find out what's new, because usually you guys are at the

forefront of What's New, because you're working with a lot of

retailers and suppliers. So one more quick thing, you've got a

board meeting coming up, I think the middle of October. What's

hot on the agenda for the from a retail perspective, at the board

meeting,

I haven't even seen it. I think what we're

trying to do in one of the things that's been requested is

telling success stories from the industry. I think we're really

going to try to focus on that, you know, looking at what has

been accomplished, what different retailers are doing,

and then hearing from from their perspective. So that's what I'm

excited about.

Love it. You're gonna host a panel. I can tell

you're gonna host a panel. I got it. We'll see it gonna happen.

It could happen. Matthew, thank you very much. Have a great

week, and we do really do appreciate it. Alrighty,

thank you, Mike.

Take care.