Dr. Clive Segil elucidates the intricacies of his journey as an orthopedic surgeon and expert witness within the legal realm. In our discourse, he articulates the pivotal role of understanding human anatomy for legal practitioners, emphasizing that true advocacy arises from a profound comprehension of the human body. He shares compelling anecdotes from his extensive career, including a notable case involving a plaintiff who suffered exaggerated claims of injury, thereby underscoring the ethical dilemmas prevalent in legal proceedings. Furthermore, Dr. Segil reflects on the essential nature of collaboration between attorneys and expert witnesses, advocating for a cohesive approach to effectively present cases. This episode serves as an invaluable resource for legal professionals seeking to enhance their practice through the integration of medical insights and ethical considerations.

A profound exploration of the intersection between medicine and law unfolds as Dr. Clive Sigel shares his extensive journey as an orthopedic surgeon turned expert witness in the legal arena. With over fifty years of experience, Dr. Siegel elucidates the profound responsibilities and challenges he faces when providing testimony in court. His commitment to truth and ethical standards is paramount, as he recounts poignant narratives from his career, particularly the case of an individual who sought damages after a minor fall, ultimately revealing the alarming prevalence of unnecessary medical treatments in personal injury claims. Dr. Siegel's insights extend beyond mere anecdotes; he emphasizes the importance of understanding anatomy for legal professionals, advocating for a deeper connection between medical expertise and legal practice. His perspective serves as a clarion call for attorneys to enhance their comprehension of medical principles, thereby enriching their ability to advocate effectively for their clients. The dialogue further delves into the intricate dynamics of courtroom proceedings, where Dr. Siegel shares his initial trepidations upon entering the legal field, only to discover the profound impact of courtroom theatrics on jury perceptions. He draws parallels between the roles of attorneys and expert witnesses, emphasizing the necessity of collaboration to construct a compelling narrative that resonates with jurors. His experiences illuminate the sometimes stark differences in presentation styles and their influence on case outcomes, underscoring the significance of preparation and rapport between legal teams. Dr. Siegel’s candid reflections on the nuances of jury bias and the art of storytelling in the courtroom provide invaluable lessons for legal practitioners seeking to navigate the complexities of justice with integrity and efficacy.

Takeaways:

• Dr. Clive Segil emphasizes the importance of establishing a connection between attorneys and expert witnesses to effectively present cases.
• The courtroom dynamic requires a nuanced understanding of jury behavior, as Dr. Segil learned from his experiences.
• Dr. Segil advocates for attorneys to enhance their anatomical knowledge to better represent clients in personal injury cases.
• He shares a poignant narrative of a case involving a woman who suffered extensive injuries, highlighting the ethical dilemmas in legal practice.
• Dr. Segil's diverse background enriches his contributions to the legal field, as he draws on over fifty years of experience in orthopedic surgery.
• He believes that winning over the jury is paramount, as they ultimately determine the outcome of a trial.

Connect with Dr Clive Segil - Medical Expert Witness

And she wanted to buy a chair, small chair, and she fell out of the chair 15, 17 inches from the chair to the floor.

And she claimed every part of her body was injured.

And she saw over 21 health care providers, all on the plaintiff side, working on a lean basis, all of them doing unnecessary treatments, multiple surgeries for no good reason.

At you've entered Legal L where sharp legal minds meet.

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Strategic Intuitive Intelligence and transformational psychology.

This is not your typical legal podcast.

We explore what most lawyers never say out loud.

Burnout, grief, inner dissonance and what it really takes to sustain a legal career with clarity, purpose and personal alignment alongside powerful solo insights.

You'll hear thought provoking conversations with members of the Help Lawyer Network, lawyers, legal support professionals and expert witnesses sharing real stories from the front lines.

This is the space where law meets what's rarely talked about.

Welcome to Legal Al.

Where wisdom meets the law and Strategic Intuitive Intelligence guides the way.

Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

This is John here.

This is Legal owl.

Today I'm introducing you to one of our expert partners, one of our new partners in our initiative that we're going to give you a little bit of insight into what he does, how he supports you as a lawyer or how he supports your law firm and the kind of things that his experience has taught him and how that equates not only in the deposition side of things, but also maybe in trial as well.

Welcome.

My guest today is Dr. Clive Siegel.

Dr. Clive, how are you?

I'm very well.

So great to see you this morning.

It's fantastic to have you.

Dr. Siegel, if you do, if you might just give everybody a little bit of a background history on your not so much your qualifications, but who you are as a doctor.

I know you're an orthopedic surgeon, but what you do and how you got to support the legal industry, well, that's.

A very, very interesting question.

I could spend the whole morning talking about it, but I'll try and get a little.

Well, you'll be on many times, Clive.

This is the first one.

So I'm looking forward to having you back many, many times.

Well, listen, to really answer your question, I am a true physician in the mold of Hippocrates and Maimonides, and it's very rare this day to see people who are like that.

It so happens that I chose the specialty of orthopedic surgery and the reason I chose the specialty of orthopedic surgery, not only was I interested in helping people, but I wanted to help people where I could see a wonderful result.

And that's basically why I chose orthopedic surgery.

And the reason is, by and large, you're dealing with healthy younger people, and therefore, as compared to dealing with older people who have cardiac problems, respiratory problems, possibly cancer, my personality is that I like to help people and see the results immediately.

I love that.

I love that.

It's not often you meet someone that says, you know, I'm going to be honest with you, I'm looking for results.

You know, I want to see that what I'm doing is actually working.

I think that's fantastic.

Thank you.

Now, so let me ask you this, then.

So you've had.

Now, you and I have spoke a little bit before, before you became one of our partners, and you mentioned that you are also a Fellow of the.

I think it's the College of Surgeons in Edinburgh, which is in my, you know, in my home country, which you love as well.

And you've had over 50 years of experience in this field.

So that is a lot of experience to bring to the legal.

Yeah, let me see if I can speak in the same Scottish brogue like you speaking.

That is not bad claim.

Not bad at all.

It's an amazing college.

And at that college you have all the people who contributed to medical science, the circulation, Harvey and other important individuals that contributed.

So it's a wonderful place to go.

As a matter of fact, out of interest, I believe that the Mayo brothers had studied in Edinburgh at the Royal College of Surgeons.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Many years ago.

And there's a constant reciprocation of all of them in our modern times from the Mayo Clinic.

But to add to that, you wanted to know what other things I've done and did you want me to talk about my experience in Israel?

Yeah, absolutely.

Because all of these experiences actually support what it is you do for the legal industry.

Because obviously legal industry expands throughout the world, but when they see that you have multiple levels of experience, then there's an element where they're like, you know, this is the guy.

We want to fight our case, this is the expert that we need.

Yeah.

So I've written my autobiography during the COVID time where I was confined to home.

You Couldn't practice much at the same time.

And it indicates my personality because the title is persistence and perseverance.

And that's what I've done all my life.

And that was just.

And a little interesting thing about the way things work in Israel.

I'll try and make it brief.

And I knew all about him.

Very well known, reputable, academic, orthopedic surgeon.

So I went up to his office when I arrived in Israel and I said to the secretary of.

I'd like to meet Professor Makin.

She said, did you make an appointment?

I said, no, I just arrived last night.

So she said, hold on a minute.

She then said, take the elevator to the operating room on the seventh floor.

When I got to the elevator, the nurse said, get into your scrubs.

She then said, over there at the sink is the professor.

So I walked up to him and he looked at me, he says, get.

Get ready.

We're going into the operating room.

Just follow me.

So I followed him into the operating room and he said, I want you to assist me.

After we had done three cases that night, he says to me, what's your name?

Oh, my God, that's crazy.

Typical of what goes on during the war with Israeli physicians.

And from then on, I remained there, I became part of his staff and it was a wonderful experience.

Wow.

And you brought all that experience back and now you're in the U.S. so, Clive, tell me a little bit about through all the years of experience you've had.

When did you first get called up?

When was you.

I'm not so much an interest in you supporting a legal case, but did a lawyer come to you?

What actually happened?

How did you get into the legal industry?

Very, very interesting.

So I spent at Cedars Sinai Medical center.

Okay.

And at Sida Sinai Medical center was a law student and he was helping the chairman of surgery do all his legal papers.

And when I left Cedars Sinai Medical center, this particular man called me.

He was now working for a major law firm.

And he said, clive, I really would like you to be my expert in this particular case.

And I knew nothing about appearing in court or the legal system or anything like that.

And it's very interesting.

He coached me in every single aspect, including how I should dress, how I should present myself in the courtroom, everything.

I was somewhat nervous because I'd never done this.

Yeah.

So to cut a long story short, I appeared with him in the courtroom and he was like Clarence Darrow, the famous attorney.

So it was wonderful to be kind of brought into the legal aspect of life by him.

And that's where it all started.

So when you were in that case with him, I can imagine.

I want to go back to that case, if I may.

You probably can talk a little bit about it, but not too much.

But he's kind of coached you.

He recognizes your expertise.

He's brought you in and you're on the stand.

How did it feel for you, though, with his support and his preparation, getting you ready for trial?

When you cross examine or when the pressure came on?

How did it feel for you the very first time?

Okay, this is a very good question.

So he and I rehearsed so well that we had this whole thing so well polished and so well organized.

And his demeanor was so amazing.

He came with his special suit with his little handkerchief in the pocket.

And he was absolutely erudite and confident and wonderful.

And he gave me a lot of confidence because I was just there with this amazing litigating attorney who knew the tricks.

Now, this is the interesting thing about it.

I thought that this is an amazing presentation by him, the opposing counsel.

I was for the defense at that stage, defending an insurance company.

The opposing counsel were this older gentleman with a suit that was stained with food.

His tie wasn't right up to where it should be.

And he mumbled and bumbled all through the case.

He had no idea what was happening.

And do you know what?

The verdict was in his favor, in his favor, in his favor.

And this is what he and I learned.

The jury were so sympathetic to this bumbling, elderly, uneducated man that they all voted in favor of whatever he said.

And I learned a big lesson that in the courtroom, you have to understand the jury and you have to be able to read the jury.

And obviously, the attorneys before the case obviously have chosen the juries, and that helps a lot.

But it just goes to show, in the courtroom, it's like being on a stage.

It's a production.

Okay.

Wow.

Yes.

And the way I now work with it with attorneys, I'll tell them this.

We gotta be prepared.

You are the director of this show or this movie.

I'm your actor, and if we can get this thing together in a very slick, organized manner, and we'll win the case.

And there was a particular case in Los Angeles where this came to be.

There was this football player who had killed his wife and her boyfriend.

He was well known.

The whole world knew that this guy had murdered his wife.

When it came to trial, the attorney representing him, Johnny Cochran, had the most.

I know exactly this case you're talking about.

I can't believe I'm not going to mention it for legal issues, but I know exactly where you're going.

And just to say when.

When it came to his final argument, he said to the jury, if the glove don't fit a quit.

And the way he presented himself to the jury, he got this gentleman off a life sentence or the electric chair.

Wow.

I think it's very interesting because it's certainly a big difference between perception and perspective.

Changing your perspective in this and this in these cases.

I mean, obviously, that case is a very famous case.

And again, we don't want to mention it, but have you found that there's a narrative that you have to do with your work?

You have to be able to be the expert, but also tell the story?

Yes.

That's all it is.

You know, Josh, it's telling the story in front of the jury, captivating them.

Absolutely captivating.

I'm going to tell you.

Should I tell you an incident that happened?

Oh, my God, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah.

Everybody would want to hear it.

I'm appearing for the defense, downtown Los Angeles Superior Court, and the plaintiff attorney has me on the stand, and he's giving me a hard time, and I'm responding and giving him a hard time.

They take a break for lunch.

After lunch, he has me back on the stand, and in his supercilious voice, he says, Dr. Siegel, I noted during the lunch break, you were talking to counsel.

Is that correct?

I said, yeah, yeah.

We were chatting.

And Dr. Siegel, what were you talking about?

We were talking about you.

What an asshole you are.

Oh, my God.

Really?

That's what you say?

Wait.

The jury can't stop laughing.

They asking for Kleenex.

You can hear them two doors away.

The guy is as mad as you can imagine.

He's screaming.

He says to the judge, judge, we need a sidebar.

So he comes up to the judge.

Obviously, I'm next to the judge in the.

In the little expert little box.

The judge says to him, counsel, lower your voice.

There's a jury in front of us.

He says, go back to Your lectern.

I'll handle the whole matter.

On the way back to the lectern, he's dropping his file.

He's cursing under his voice.

Finally, he gets to the lectern and the judge says, counsel, would you like a glass of water?

Oh, no, no, no, no.

I'm fine.

The judge then said to the jury, in his very eloquent way, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I'd like you to ignore everything that Dr. Siegel said.

There was a verdict and 10 minutes in our favor, because I made an oath to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

And if you kind of ignorant lawyer asks me that, I'll just tell the truth.

And that's what happened.

Defense verdict in 10 minutes.

Do you know one of the things I'm noticing about you, Clive, and I think this is important for anybody who's out there, who's a lawyer or any potential expert who's working or maybe even new to the field, there seems to be not just a confidence, but I think you're projecting a courage that you've got to have a courage behind you to be able to look, as I would probably term it, you've got to have balls of steel to go up against counsel and call them out.

And you're not frightened to call them out.

Let me tell you, over the years, what I've discovered is that in the courtroom, there is a man in a academic black gown.

Next to him is a bailiff with two guns in his.

In his holsters.

There's the American flag, there's the California flag.

And you want to know something?

They just ordinary individuals trying to do a bit of work.

And that's the way I see the courtroom.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Okay.

Wow, that's a great analogy.

Look at it.

The analogy.

When that judge goes to the toilet, he pulls down his pants the same as me.

Honestly, I love that because, I mean, this is kind of changing the subject, but many years ago, when I was in the military, I was chosen in Britain to be part of a protection unit for Her Majesty the Queen Mother.

And everybody was so scared and so worried about it.

And one of the things that I had said was, well, she's just like us, all blood runs red.

She's going to go to the bathroom the same as us.

There's no change there.

So don't think any different.

And I think I've had that.

I've had that kind of thought process all my life as well.

Just like you.

Everybody has to go to the bathroom the same as you.

And so there is no difference.

And I think that's a great lesson for you to teach not only lawyers, but.

But potential experts that are in the industry that you know that you.

You have to not have a fear of what you're doing.

Correct.

Have you ever had a case, Clive, where the lawyer has been so aggressive to you that it's kind of made you emotionally charged in any way?

Yes.

That's a very good way of expressing it, Josh.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If they do that, I'm so emotionally charged that with all due respect, and I try to be as kind as possible, I really give them a hard time.

As a matter of fact, a few weeks ago, this attorney was taking my deposition.

Okay.

He knew nothing about it.

I mean, he had no idea about the case.

He just wasn't informed anything.

And I said in the deposition, counsel, did you go to law school?

Oh, no, you didn't.

How did he respond?

I mean, he went red in the face.

What do you think is the greatest problem between what the legal industry does and certainly as a lawyer who's maybe facing you either in a plaintiff or defense case, where do you see the problem is with you and them?

What's the distance?

What is the disconnection that you've noticed in all of your years of doing this that you would say, you know what, here's the same problem that I come against all the time?

Yes.

Yes.

Okay.

I think there has to be a relationship, a connection between the attorney, the lawyer and me.

There has to be a connection because then we present the case as a team, a team that has thought about the case, has reviewed the case, who understands the case and is very well prepared.

That's what it has to be like that.

And unless that can happen, it's not going to work.

And in some instances, I've actually said to the lawyer, I said, unless, and it's not me.

Unless you can sort of change the way you address the situation as well as you can.

Listen to my experience in the law court, knowing what goes on and if we can discuss our issues and come to some conclusion, we're not going to win the case.

Wow.

So do you feel then that the lawyer tries to sometimes do your job?

Yes.

And that can happen.

And that's probably not a great idea.

Like it's not appropriate for me to do his job.

No, exactly.

Because we spoke about this before and I think I've said this many times.

Other people I've talked to, there's too many times lawyers try to Be experts.

And too many experts try to be lawyers.

And there has to be an understanding between both of them.

Clive, what was the most.

Because obviously you said at the beginning, and I love it, you said that you did your specialty as an orthopedic surgeon because you wanted to see results, right?

You wanted to see people get well.

You wanted an immediate thing.

So let's take that idea that you had from your experience as an orthopedic surgeon to the courtroom.

What is your most memorable result?

Where you thought, you know what?

We could possibly lose this.

But it turned around because of how you engaged or how you told the story.

Let's talk about how that is and how you got that result.

Yeah.

As you heard many times from me, I don't like losing, okay?

I need to win.

Okay?

And I will go all the way to do that.

So what I find in this last case, that we were at a very long case.

The trial went on for three weeks, and I was the last expert over there.

And as I looked at the jury, they were half asleep.

They were bored like you cannot imagine.

And I thought, I gotta wake them up, okay?

And my wife kind of laughs when I tell her what I did.

So I'm explaining to the jury, in orthopedics and back situations, the straight leg raising test.

And the straight leg raising test that we do in the examining room in my clinic is the patient lies on the table, and then you lift the leg all the way up, okay?

And that tells you if they have a sciatica, whatever.

Guess what I did in the courtroom in my chair?

I put my leg right up on the counter, okay?

And then I lifted my leg all the way up, and they could see what a straight leg raising test was, okay?

And they woke up and they smiled.

You could see them smiling.

And then they wanted me to the attorney.

We rehearsed this to educate them on the case.

It was a spinal case.

I had the model of the spine in my hand.

So I got up from my chair, I walked right in front of the jury, and there I did.

I explained to them, pointing with my finger to the lamina, to the body of the vertebra, to the discs, how these things happen.

Made a few jokes about some people who don't know the back from the front, the front from the back.

Some doctors don't know which end of the patient eats.

And they were laughing and they were relaxed and they were making notes in their books.

And do you know, we won the case.

And the attorneys said to the jurors afterwards, tell Us how they said.

We were so impressed and we so much enjoyed.

Dr. Siegel.

Wow.

See, I think what I'm learning from you as well is that you don't care whether you win over the lawyer, and you don't care whether you win over the judge.

It seems to me that you're only interested in winning over the jury.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to me be the best appropriate action.

Because if you win the jury, you won the case.

You've won the case.

Yeah.

Because, you know, in our law system here in America, it's a jury trial, okay.

In other parts of the world, they don't have a jury.

You know, two or three judges sit there and listen to the situation.

Or sometimes even in the United States of America, there's not a jury.

And it depends on the judge.

And of course, the judge has his own biases or whatever.

So I think, with all due respects, it's not.

Not a perfect system, but the jury system seems to work because it's the common man that is looking at the situation.

Like they say in England, the man on the Chatman bus.

You remember that statement?

The man on the Chapman bus.

You know, you mentioned something there that I think is important to jump in.

Or you mentioned the word bias.

Right.

And we all have bias.

I have biases in my side of things.

You have a bias.

The judge is a bias.

People in the jury have a bias.

How do you equate that?

How do you identify that bias?

Because it seems to me as well that when you identify the behavior, which is something I'm particularly interested and work with, when you identify the behavior and the bias, you can take a different action and start to kind of control the narrative a little bit more.

But have you found at any time in your trial history or any examples that you have that the bias has been overwhelming, that you just haven't been able to break through them because it's so rigid?

Yes, yes.

Well, first of all, you have to understand people and detect bias.

Well, with all due respects, I was talking to my grandkids the other day.

We were talking about a lot of things, and I said to them, your grandpa, how many people do you think in his whole life at the present time he has met?

Okay, over a million.

If you just think you see 80 new patients a week from a professional point of view, and that's over a period of 60 years, then socially, all the people you meet because of, I don't know, your personality, your experience, all the people in your religious environment, all the people in your social environment, in your clubs, et cetera, et cetera.

And when you sit down and you add that up, and all my patients, of course, when you sit and add them up, with all due respect, I can determine a person's personality, their honesty, their ethics, their morality within 10 minutes.

Wow, that's brilliant.

So you're able to, as we would say in our world, you're able to read the room and read that behavior very, very quickly.

That gives you.

It's almost like a superpower as well.

That gives you a kind of superpower.

And again, I'm going to say, when I first met you, as you know, I had a little bit of doubt about you.

And the more and more we spoke, the more I realized this is a great gentleman.

Okay, thank you.

I appreciate that.

I think I try to.

I try to come across, obviously, as authentic and everything as possible.

And it helps that I'm Scottish, because everybody kind of likes, like, Scottish people as well.

And the fact that, you know, anybody who's listening out there.

Yes, yes, you hear the Scottish accent.

But at the moment, I'm so excited that my.

My football team, or Scottish football team, is here in America competing in the World cup for the first time in 28 years.

So, come on, guys.

And another thing that we both have that is in our favor is the accent.

You know the accent.

I know that's the.

I have the accent.

That's the thing, because.

And I found this.

In America, people do take to the accent, but.

And I want to jump on that, because obviously, you've got an accent.

You've got a South African accent, and you're.

Do you find that as something that helps with your engagement when you're on trial or even in a deposition?

It absolutely does.

As a matter of fact, when I meet the attorney for the first time and we talk about it, he says, I'm so glad you have this accent.

But it sounds like you are a cultured Englishman, because they can't tell the difference between a South African accent, a British accent, an Australian accent, a Canadian accent.

I now can tell a little bit of the different accents of New Yorkers and Toddy Toy Street.

I could tell the Texan accent.

Honestly, I've met so many people here, and they're like, I love your accent.

And I go to them.

I actually.

I love your accent as well.

You've got a Southern accent.

They go, I don't have an accent at all.

I'm like, of course you do.

You absolutely do.

And I think it helps as well because there's that air of your accent, which is kind of very scientific.

It kind of reminds you some of the famous psychiatrists and Carl Gustav Jung and, you know, these people that have these strong accents.

And so they take you more seriously, I guess, in court as well.

Yeah.

They think you are Mr. Churchill, Prime Minister of England.

Oh, my goodness.

Yeah, he was amazing.

I've listened to some of his speeches, and I think that's another thing I want to talk about.

I've listened to some of, like, Churchill speeches and some of the greatest speeches in the world, and the way that they orate the narrator, the whole thing.

Do you practice your speech patterns or your potential, how to talk to not only the jury?

Here's the thing.

Do you talk to the jury differently to the way that you would talk to, say, the judge or the lawyer?

Do you practice that delivery of your statements?

Now, I'm thinking hard to how to answer that.

When I first started doing this, my speech patterns in front of the jury and judge were a little different.

Now I really don't have to practice this as I'm in my golden years and my senior years, and I just talk like I'm talking to you now.

I don't change that at all.

I just wanted to come over as, I don't know, genuine and from the.

Yeah.

Have you.

Have you.

What is.

What is your.

Your most memorable case that you.

That you're.

You're.

You're going in there and afterwards you were like, you know what?

This is probably the one, the one case that I remember that has affected me emotionally.

Because you won the case because you could see that it was deserving.

You know, that's a good question.

And there's been so many cases.

I know I can't think of one in particular, but the one that I was kind of impressed with was just recently, quickly, this somewhat overweight lady went to Home Depot and she wanted to buy a chair, small chair.

And she fell out of the chair 15, 17 inches from the chair to the floor.

And she claimed every part of her body was injured.

And she saw over 21 health care providers, all on the plaintiff side, working on a lean basis, all of them doing unnecessary treatments, multiple surgeries for no good reason at all, maiming and mutilating her for the rest of her life.

And when it came to trial, I appeared after about two weeks because all these other experts appeared before me, and we won the case.

Wow.

And what do you think was the turning point for you to win that case?

The turning point was just to show how on one side of the legal system there is no, what should I call it?

No morality, no decency.

It's just making as much money as they can.

They're not a representative for their client, they not an advocate for their client.

And that's what I find very disturbing.

This is perhaps a bit of a double barreled question because I'm always interested when I speak to legal professionals.

Do you have a preference for working on defence or plaintiff?

And why?

Why one or the other?

Yes.

That's a very good question.

You know, I don't have a preference for either.

I have a preference for trying to establish the truth.

And if a plaintiff is a brilliant answer.

Yeah.

And if the plaintiff has a legitimate problem, especially in my head, for example, paraplegia.

Okay.

Or a fractured major bone or a dislocated hip or something really serious, someone has to go and help that plaintiff get what they deserve.

And especially in malpractice cases as well.

Now, of course in the defense, I'm somewhat conservative and that's why I tend to go to the defense bar because of my conservative background.

That's more or less.

But I want to just establish the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Yes.

So help me God.

The whole truth and nothing but the truth.

You know, it's fascinating to listen to some of your stories and some of the things that you've done.

And I think you've got a lot to teach lawyers.

And so obviously one of the things that we are doing now within our new initiative is that we'll be teaching these lawyers.

What is it that you, that you feel personally yourself, through all of your experience, that I wish lawyers knew this, I wish lawyers was trained in this, or what would I want?

What would Dr. Siegel want the legal industry to learn?

If you look at my cv, you'll see how many lectures and talks I've given to lawyers.

And the reason is they invite me and I'm only too pleased to go.

And they have the requirements for their legal education, continuous education.

They have to.

So some of them come there under stress, but they come and I entertain them and I try and tell them.

So what I do is I have to teach them anatomy.

If it's a spinal case, they have to know the anatomy of the body.

And I'll give you a good example of why I feel that's important.

When I first started doing this work, a very good friend of mine, a general surgeon, Steve, introduced me to his brother Andy, who is a plaintiff attorney, because Andy wanted to form a relationship with me.

And when I got to know Andy, what Andy did, because he's a plaintiff attorney, he went and spent a year part time at the USC anatomy department, University of Southern California, learning all about human anatomy.

And with all due respect, he knew more anatomy than recent medical graduates from ucla.

And so he was very good because he knew exactly what was happening.

So that's another factor that if attorneys would just spend their time learning about, because what we're doing is a human body.

You know, we're not defending a big commercial case or we're not prosecuting a big company or something like that.

We talking about the human body.

And with all due respect, I often use this expression, they don't know what part of the body eats.

Absolutely.

That's true in so many cases and not even just the body.

And a lot of different legal issues they don't know.

I mean, a colleague of mine I've spoke about and introduced you to, soon, Dr. Lilbeau, you know, he has worked as a toxicologist and legion, and none of them understand it.

They just have a case.

And the problem is, and I've said this as well, is that they look at theory and this is theory.

But I've always said experience trumps theory.

Your experience can blow the theory out the water because you have that real experience.

And I think that's where the legal industry needs to come.

They need to learn from the experience and not just the theory.

There's a quotation.

What's the definition of a wise man?

Knowledge and experience equals wisdom.

Absolutely, 100%.

Before we finish, Clive, I want to talk a little bit about Clive the man, not Clive the doctor, and put the legal side aside.

But obviously with the legal industry and what you do, not only as a doctor, but as an expert witness, as a legal expert, there's a lot of pressure and a lot of things.

I notice you've got a beautiful painting behind you.

What do you do?

What do you like to do?

To just take your own time, to chill out and, you know, to take some time away from all of that mental load.

I wish I could just take this camera and point it to the window outside where I am at my home.

I live on a farm.

Oh, my God.

Lovely.

I live in an urban farm that I created from scratch over the last 50 years.

And this farm, I've got 300 exotic fruit trees from all over the world.

In addition to that, I have chickens, ducks, quail, a ivory of different birds.

In addition to that, I have seven goats.

Two of them have just produced baby Goats.

We have three baby goats which we help deliver those baby goats.

I have two cows.

I have a Jersey cow.

We milk the cow and the goats every day.

I have a full time farm manager that works with me.

We do all that.

I'm a beekeeper.

I have 10.

You're a beekeeper as well?

I love that.

And to learn all about bees, John, is to go back to medical school.

I mean, you gotta know so much about beekeeping.

So not only that, I have a vegetable garden.

And as we speaking last night, I picked six ears of fresh corn, rushed to the kitchen, put them in the pot.

The corn, the sweetest corn you can imagine.

I have 35 varieties of tomatoes, as we used to say, tomatoes, all from different parts of the country, all getting ripe as we speaking now.

I love that.

And that occupies me all my free time.

In addition to that, I'm an active member of my community.

I'm involved.

I was on the board of the synagogue for many years.

I have the most wonderful family.

I have one son and four grandsons.

Oh, fantastic.

We will be with them on Sunday for Father's Day.

And I gotta tell you, I know what's happened previous Father's Days.

These grandsons make a play or they produce a video or something like that for Father's Day.

They don't just give me a little card that they got at the CVS pharmacy.

They make an effort to do this.

Oh, my God, that's amazing.

I absolutely love that.

Clive, thank you for being a guest on Legal Ill. Obviously this is your first appearance, but it's not the last because you're one of our founding partners, which I'm really excited about, and your experience, your knowledge, your wisdom.

And if you're a law firm out there, you're a lawyer in the state of California or even wider field, and you want to learn from Clive, you will be able to do that within Help Lawyer.

And you can connect with Clive.

You'll have all these details underneath this episode.

And if you've got any questions, if you're a lawyer, if you're a legal person out there and you've got any questions that you just want him to ask that you're stuck with, then that's what we're here for.

We're here to educate you in the legal industry and to connect you with people like Clive and to understand the man from the Expert as well.

Clive.

Dr. Clive Segal.

This has been an absolute pleasure having you on Legal Oil and I can't wait for you to obviously teach as well.

To our network and our legal experts and lawyers.

And what is a final thought before we finish?

One final thought that you would give to the legal industry from your experience now?

Yeah.

Just to let everyone know, I'm licensed as a orthopedic.

Orthopedic surgeon in both California and Nevada.

Okay.

And I travel to Las Vegas and occasionally to Reno, and I'm asked there to come and be their experts by a variety of very well known respectful attorneys.

In addition to that, because I'm in the workers compensation arena as well.

I have 10 offices in Southern California because with the workers compensation, you have to be where the workers are to get cases for them.

So I'm an agreed medical examiner, a qualified medical examiner in many parts of California, and I traveled a fair amount to those places.

So I'm around, I'm available, and I'm only too pleased.

I love teaching, as you can see.

I've been a teacher at the University of Southern California, the University of the Wit Waters Rand in Johannesburg, University of.

Of Toronto in Canada, at the Hadassah Hospital, which is associated with the Hebrew University.

So I am all over the place.

And I'm also invited as a visiting professor to various parts of the world because I don't know my experience and whatever.

So it's a pleasure being with you, actually.

I really enjoyed it and I got to tell you, you're a great guy.

Thank you.

Honestly.

Thank you, Clive.

I'm looking forward to having you back.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is Legal O.

This is part of the Help Law Network.

You as a lawyer, you're out there, you will be able to take classes, you will be able to connect with Clive and you will be able to listen to him as we go through this process again.

Thank you for joining us today.

If you've got any questions, reach out to us.

That's what we're here for.

Dr. Clive Siegel, God bless.

Thank you.

I shall speak to you again very soon.

And the same to you.

Bye Bye.

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