This episode handles the subject of baby loss.  

On the last episode of the series, we share our guests’ hopes for the future, and Caroline and Jen reflect on their hopes, too. 

From opening up the conversation, and helping families grow around their grief, to building on an open, learning culture, and saving babies’ lives, there are so many hopes shared.  

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Sands is here to support anyone affected by pregnancy loss or the death of a baby, whenever and however they need it. You can get support from thesupport pages of our website , by joining our online community or by joining our facebook support group or facebook support group for Dads

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Sands saves babies’ lives and supports bereaved families. To learn more about Sands, visit our website or find us on facebook , Instagram and Twitter

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Voices of Baby Loss is produced by Under The Mast , creative audio productions 

Welcome to Voices of Baby Loss, presented by me, Caroline Verdon.

I'm a broadcaster and journalist and Jen Coates, who is the Director of Bereavement

Supports and volunteering at Sands.

Sands

is a UK-based charity whose purpose is to save babies'

lives, and support Berea families.

We also aim to give a voice to parents who've been touched

by pregnancy and baby loss.

You can follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Sans charity

and on Twitter at sans.

Which is also where you can get in touch with us if you'd like to

comment on or get involved in the podcast.

We are both touched by baby loss, and so this topic is really close to our hearts.

Coming up on this week's

episode, my hope for the future is that we keep the momentum going.

I think we have really begun a very powerful journey here in engaging

parents in research and in identifying that we can prevent babies from dying.

We really.

I would like to see just more awareness or more siblings speaking about

their experiences or more awareness of what it's like for the sibling.

Another baby.

Baby.

Welcome to our final episode of the series.

Uh, it's kind a flash, hasn't it?

It really has,

but it's been phenomenal.

I've really enjoyed meeting so many

extraordinary people and learning so much.

I had no idea of the breadth of work that Sams did.

I had no idea of the breadth of work that was being.

In general to stop baby loss, and it's been really uplifting for me and really

incredible to think that actually there will be hundreds and thousands

and millions of people who will not go through what we've gone through.

I think lots

of people know us for our bereavement support, and that's often

the first contact people have with Sands.

But there's so much

more that we do a and, and I absolutely am one of those people.

You know, that's, that's why I found Sands.

I needed, I needed support.

And e even when you, when you say it like that, lots of people know us

for our bereavement work and there, and there's other work that we do.

I still would've imagined that bereavement.

Support would've been knowing how much support that you offer

that that would've been 99.9% of what you do, but it really isn't.

It's a third of what.

You do, it's, it's a third.

Uh, and it's extraordinary the amount of work that is going on

in the background Absolutely.

In training professionals and supporting research and ensuring

the parent voice is absolutely integral to all of all of the

work that we do.

Absolutely.

Now as a, this is our final episode.

We wanted to focus on the future, and one of the things we did throughout the series

is every time we spoke to a guest, we asked them for their hopes for the future.

So this is a compilation of some of our favorites.

Rez

is dad to

baby

. Lucy Livesey: My genuine hope for

or don't have anymore children, you know, I always remember.

My good times with yakup, even if it's my bad times with Yakup, because

that's so important to me and I feel like it's changed me as a person.

It's, it's changed the way I f I speak or I am as a person because

you quickly realized what's important and what's not important anymore.

I really hope that memory of him carries on.

And I know it sounds daft, but sometimes you see certain situations and you're

like, Woman it, they've moved on, but that's behind closed doors.

Everyone's grief is behind closed doors.

And you know, for me it's, I will want to remember him no matter what future comes.

Tanya lost her son, Isaac in 2018.

I guess I just want

to hopefully be able to have another healthy child in the future.

So that's my main goal.

But my other goals are to keep talking about the subject and.

Just keep trying to help people and just not let Isaac get forgotten in

any way and celebrate him and the life that he could have had, and make

sure that Florence grows up and feels that she can ask me questions about

it when she's older and that she can talk about it and just continue to.

work on myself because I still have triggers and I still have really down

days, and I still get upset and I still have a lot of emotions about it.

Um, but try and make things as positive as I can

f for him really, because I, I would, I would, I would love to think

that he's looking down on me and

he's actually really proud.

David is father two.

Rachel, in terms of sands, that it prospers, that it continues to grow

into the brilliant charity that it is.

It's been on a journey since, since we've, we have known it, been

involved in it over the last 10 years.

You can see it.

Developing and it's become much, it's become probably more professional.

It's more visible.

It's doing absolutely brilliant work.

In terms of support, in terms of research, in terms of, in terms of

that sort of being there to support those that have lost, lost babies.

The hope for science is that it continues to grow and it continues to benefit

and that fundamentally, I suppose that I remember ever Rachel died.

There was Christmas card that I, I can't remember how many it.

I can't remember the number, but say it was one 17 babies, uh, I can't

remember, 17 babies die day or whatever.

But that's reduced dying there.

There's less babies dying now neonatal or still bursts now than

what they were even 15 years ago.

So I suppose it's just about sand helping and to reduce still bursts to

reduce neonatal needle, neonatal deaths.

And where it does happen that.

To support and continue to help those that have lost.

Because one thing for sure is that no parent should ever

have to bury their child.

And it's one of the most difficult things that any parent will,

anybody will ever have to do.

If Sands can help and support people that are going through that tragic,

awful situation, well then that's.

She, McCrory is a conservative MP for the constituency of Truro and Falmouth.

She lost her daughter Lily in 2019.

My, my hope for the future is that we have a greater understanding of all

types of baby loss because there are so many different reasons why babies

are lost and they're often the same and often they get grouped together.

So I think it's important that we open the convers.

that families don't feel frightened to talk about it.

I think that we are not talking about this enough yet.

I think we're doing better than we used to, but I think it's important

that we talk about it more.

I think I would like to see more research into, into why later pregnancy

losses happened later than mine.

Mine was a very straightforward case and I was able to have

closure on why that happened.

But often if a baby stops moving at 38 weeks, that baby is tragically lost.

Often mum and family.

Ever know the reason why, and we've got to do better at that.

We've got to understand why.

So we can put in place better monitoring, better care, so that

we can save more of these babies.

Lucy Livesy is the founder of Relax with Lucy and Co.

She's a mental health nurse and a wellbeing practitioner.

She lost her daughter.

Ellie,

I

recognize a lot that people, you've experienced baby

loss sometimes if times passed, and it's been a long time that people.

Think it's okay to grieve anymore, like they've not got a right to.

And I think my hope for the future is that message of baby loss is baby loss.

No matter what type of baby loss it was, no matter when it happened, you know,

you can grieve for the rest of your life and everybody's welcome in these spaces.

And I always share that with the mindfulness circles that we do.

I say, it doesn't matter when you lost your baby, you know, come along if

it was 40, 50 years ago, come along.

You are, are as much as deserving as anybody else.

So yeah, my hope would be that, that people know that message, that it

doesn't matter how long it's been or what type of baby loss you've experienced,

every baby loss is is relevant.

Charlotte Bevin is joint head of the Saving Baby's Lives team at Sans

and lost her daughter Hope in 2001.

My hope for the future is that we keep the momentum going.

I think we have really begun a very powerful journey here in

engaging parents in research and.

Identifying that we can prevent babies from dying.

We really can.

A, a recent report this week will say that one in five deaths

is potentially preventable.

And I think the parents' voice at the heart of that is so important.

So I, I really hope, and I believe that we can keep momentum going and ke get

these numbers down so that parents do not have to endure the avoidable death of a.

, Claire Morgan leads the training and education team at sans.

Ideally, that all workplaces would have a baby loss policy in place

with guidance and training for line managers so that parents are

properly supported wider than that.

It's not just workplaces, it's kind of wherever we are in community

and society so that people just understand, don't treat brief parents

differently, , but actually do have an insight into what they've been

through, acknowledge their parenthood.

It may be different to the parenthood that you recognize, and I think the

hope is that the more work we do and the more we talk about, The importance of

these things that in the future, fewer parents will feel isolated and parents

will be supported in their communities by their friends, their families,

their colleagues, their community groups, and at work, which means that.

They don't need specialist support.

They're being held and they have the space where they are, and rather than

having to leave, rather than having to go outside of their communities for

specialist support, actually they can stay as they are as a bereaved parent

in their community groups and are not isolated, and, uh, have the time and

the space to be able to talk about what happened or also not talk about what

happened if that's what they'd rather not

do.

Nikki Evans is the co-chair of the Fertility and Loss employee-led

network within NatWest Group.

She lost her daughter, Jane.

Matt Blues Sky.

I think in hope for the future is this would

never, ever happen to anybody.

Full stop.

Unfortunately, we'll live in the real world and we know that's not the case.

So I think my hope for the future would be that every employer would

consider having the support network.

Introducing things like bereavement in the workplace, making sure that's the

training's there for staff and for line managers, and it would become part of the

corporate framework to have that included.

And I think that would be my, my dream is that you would have that included.

I would also like to thank any new managers who came on board that was part

of the initial induction and initial training, be part of the network.

Or at least find out about the network and find out what you can bring to

it or how it can help you, help your employees and your direct reports.

Because it's not just the women that are affected by it, it's also the men.

So you need to know how to help your female direct reports.

You also need to know how to help your male direct reports or same

sex couples, anything like that.

It needs to be all encompass.

. Yeah.

I think in the future what I would really like is to have that policy, so like any

kind of bereavement in the workplace, any sort like child loss policy, all

embedded within, regardless, and it's there for everybody to get access to.

Al Betty is 16 and to the world.

He appears to be an only child, but he is brother to vial and Rayna.

I would like to see just more awareness or more siblings speaking about

their experiences or more awareness of what it's like for the sibling,

how the sibling can deal with it.

Um, and just different stories from different siblings because I think looking

to other people and collaborating that into helping you has been very important.

So I think the same thing, if you have a lot of siblings that can give

advice, I think that will really help.

Just putting that all together into, not a guideline, but just to give support.

Emma Pool lost her daughter Liddy, and then was faced with

the reality of having to break that news to her nearly four year old son George,

and then later to her youngest son Henry, and whilst looking for support for her

children, she found herself writing.

Where Are You?

Liddy, which is a special picture book for children between three and seven.

There's so

many things that I could answer to that for parents,

for siblings, for the babies that we've had to say goodbye to.

I think my overwhelming.

Feeling is not to feel alone and to be able to talk about it,

to be given the p permission.

And I think hopefully that we can, we can find a way that is easier to be

able to connect with our children and to connect with the grief, which is

ultimately, it is so incredibly painful.

I think my hope would be that, that you can feel

part

of the whole community not, and not feel that you have

to hide away or you don't know

what to say.

Chris Somerville is the Scotland Network coordinator for SANS and is

married with his own children, but he grew up in a family of five, but

always knew he was actually part of a family of six as his eldest

brother Jason died before he was born.

My hope for the future is that these conversations

don't become more difficult.

One of the things I realized about this podcast is that.

There's a little barrier to depressing play when it comes out,

and the barrier is that this could be really tough to listen to.

This could remind me of stuff.

This could be quite a depressing thing, and it never has been.

It's always been.

Very powerful.

It's always been very useful and I've been really impressed.

But it's those little things that, um, my hope for the future is that in

the conversations we have about our children, in the conversations we have

about stillbirth in the conversations we have about baby loss, That we don't

have that reticence of, oh no, this is going to be really tough, that it's

something that we do all the time so that we know that this is something

that is, you know, I can do this.

It's part of life.

It's part of what happens.

BJ lost his son Josh in 2019.

I think just transparency and honesty from hospital.

Our intention was to never punish any professional that was involved.

It was just open dialogue, honest dialogue, and to ensure

it doesn't happen again.

That's all we wanted.

And so if, if that barrier can be broken down where.

Hospitals, their risk assessment teams, their lead clinicians are less defensive,

just more open and just admit where things have gone wrong and say sorry,

and ensure they don't happen again.

Then we'll have one family less going through what we have.

Shea's son, Magnus was born sleeping at 38 weeks.

I think for me, we're really.

We've got our aunt or girl now, she's three months old yesterday.

So we've been really lucky that we've been able to, to conceive and be

able to still have a another baby.

So that's really something that's really quite incredible.

Even when she's screaming her head off at night and you said, please be quiet.

I just sh kind of, um, You just recognize, you know, you know, she'll look up

at me and I'm just like, oh, okay.

You're already cute.

And I love you with everything that I have.

So I'm gonna try and create the best environment for you to

be the best person you can be.

Uh, but really my hopes, I think, are that I hope that more people

recognize, recognized that people are different, they deal with things

differently, and that people should never be afraid to feel their feelings.

to ask for help when they need it, and to accept that some things you can't change.

Pete Byron is mental health and wellbeing coordinator for Sans United and his son

Thomas died.

I suppose

my hope for the future is that I know Denise and me are not gonna

be the last parents had to experience a, a stillbirth that we just hope

we closest that they, when it don't.

Um, and I know sadly it will happen, but the, to make sure those numbers are as

low as possible, but in concert with that, to, to try and do what I can do in my

small corner to make sure that the support is there for somebody who needs it.

And I describe myself, I'm six at three tall and wide, you know, and if, if I

not that sort of height and width as anybody to do it, but if I can walk

up in and go into a support meeting to show that any broker can go and

walk in support meeting and don't feel that you're on your own cuz you are.

Just reach out for

that support.

Claire Harmer is the c e O of sans.

I think my

hope for the future is that at Sans we can help be part of

creating a culture that allows healthcare professionals to thrive in a culture.

Supports parents being absolutely at the center of their care, being listened to,

being respected, and that as a result of that, we know that more babies' lives

will be saved, but that parents will feel more positive about all of their

experiences around paternity care as well.

Professor Sarah Stock is a professor in maternal and fetal

health, and she's also the program director for in Utero at Welcome Leap.

I've just taken a new role through Welcome Leap, which are

a not-for-profit, um, who's aimed to bring health breakthroughs, and I am

directing a program which aims to.

Find new ways to look at, at pregnancy to model gestation with a view to reducing

stillbirth by half within three years.

Wow.

That feels like I'm gonna be busy.

. In a good way.

in a good way.

And I, it is.

I mean, it's really exciting.

It's bringing researchers around the world together to focus on this problem.

This the, the problem of stillbirth.

So if you ask, what my hopes are is I really.

That this research program is successful because it's a big

aim, but it's such an important

one now.

We usually finish each episode with hopes for the future, which is obviously

what this entire episode has been about.

So this time, as the series draws to a close, these are our hopes for the future.

I think for me, my hope is that we talk more because I think not only

will that help parents suffering bereavement, but that will also.

Move baby loss further up the political and the research agenda, because I

think it's still in a way, such a taboo subject that we deal with secretly,

that it doesn't have the profile that it deserves and that it needs.

I think I have many hopes

for the future, but one of them is that Sands becomes better

known and therefore more able to reduce the numbers of babies dying.

And if we're better known, we can reach more people to support

them when their baby does die.

So yeah, I, I just want anybody who needs Sands to be able to find us and also,

For policymakers to hear us, but I hope very much that eventually sounds won't

need to exist, , because babies won't

be

dying.

Voices of Baby Loss is an under thema creative audio production.