In this episode I trade kitchen stories and cooking secrets with the wonderful Kate Holbrook.

Kate is a creative force, original founder of cashmere recyclers Turtle Doves, and one of my very first students back when I got started with my intuitive cooking workshops.

Kate shares her gentle, slow-burning journey from feeling hesitant in the kitchen to confidently whipping up delicious, imaginative meals.

Listen to our inspiring chat as she reflects on how embracing an intuitive approach transformed not only her cooking habits but also her enjoyment of food, her relationship to fresh ingredients, and even her shopping habits.

Kate shares her refreshingly honest take on building confidence with food, how following intuition made shopping and cooking way less stressful, and why sometimes the simplest meal will always be her favourite. You’ll also hear thoughts on cooking with fire and baking fish, clever ways to use up odds and ends, and why noticing smells and textures can make all the difference.

It's a heartfelt conversation full of relatable insights, fun anecdotes, and practical inspiration for making home cooking easier, tastier, and more joyful. Tune in and join us - it’s a good one!

⭐ SHOW NOTES

theintuitivecook.co.uk/podcast-ep19

⭐ CONNECT WITH KATE

instagram: @myrewirement

⭐ CONNECT WITH KATERINA

website theintuitivecook.co.uk

instagram @intuitive.cook

youtube @intuitivecook

contact hello@theintuitivecook.co.uk

⭐ LINKS

Find out more about the things we discussed.

Turtle Doves

Like Hearted Leaders

Yuka app

Original music by Colin Bass

Note: links are posted for your convenience, and do not imply endorsement, affiliation or advertisment.

⭐ DITCH THE RECIPES

A FREE 5part mini course with my top tips to get started as an intuitive cook!

theintuitivecook.co.uk/free

⭐ YOUR WEEKLY DOSE OF KITCHEN CONFIDENCE

A newsletter that helps you unleash your cooking instincts.

theintuitivecook.co.uk/newsletter

Welcome, Kate. I'm so thrilled to have you on the podcast.

Well, thank you for having me.

We are connected through quite a lot of different things. We were together in this amazing networking group called LHL. Light Hearted Leaders.

Exactly.

And then I found out that you were the person behind the amazing fingerless gloves that I had just bought. And then you came to one of my very first intuitive cooking workshops.

Absolutely. I came along because I was genuinely interested, but also because we knew each other. It's kind of like an act of support, isn't it? I'm interested. Let's see what this is about. But actually, the reason I'm back here now is because the effect has been so positive, I wanted to share it back to you. And how long ago is that now? Cause that's quite a long time, isn't it?

Yeah, I think it's sort of coming up. Five years, possibly.

Wow.

Yeah.

Yeah, it is. It's a long time.

It's crazy how time just flies.

It does, absolutely.

Let's start with the easy, obvious question. What are you cooking tonight?

Oh, do you know, you did say to me that you'd ask this question and I feel a bit bad because I'm going out, but I'm going for tapas, so that'll be really nice because it's always inspiring to eat those kind of foods, I think. And I'm going with family, so that'll be lovely too. So having thought all that, I thought, well, what am I cooking tomorrow? And I have some chicken thighs and some vegetables in the fridge and I'm going to do a kind of sort of like a one pot supper. Really. I did it recently and didn't want to cook extra carbs with it. And I kind of, following the intuitive course, I've done kind of see what I've got in. I shop more meaningfully now because I know I'm pretty much going to use everything, but I will chuck in a load of vegetables, having browned off the chicken. And then the other day I sliced potato quite thickly and put it on top, put some foil over it and went for an hour's walk and came back to a delicious meal.

So I think that's going to be the plan tomorrow night.

Yeah. And it sounds like you're just throwing these kind of amazing meals together now.

I mean, the thing is, how do I put this? I don't feel like I cook amazing meals, but the people that eat them say they're really tasty and I really enjoy them. So, you know, I definitely feel much more confident with flavor than I did. And I enjoy experimenting much more. And an example I thought of was the other day. Oh, I did some. Some cod that I'd wrapped in foil with some lemon. And I put some, you can buy baby tin tomatoes, which are actually really much better than you'd think. I love those.

So I put some of those, some lemon, some herbs, bundled it up, put it in the oven in foil, and then I chopped up potatoes into big cubes. And then I had half a lemon left. And in the past, I would have, I don't know, used it for something else or whatever. And this time I just cut it into the tiniest little bits. I kind of cut it all up and sprinkled it over the potatoes and cooked them quite slowly. Cause I didn't want the lemon to burn. And it was something that you'd said on the course that how lemon and potato goes together so well. And it's become one of my kind of little obsessions.

But it was so satisfying to eat that meal. I think there was a whole lemon in that dish and it all got eaten. Cause there was some slices on top of the fish. And when I turned to Mark and he'd. All the lemon was gone. I said, you even ate your slices of lemon. He's like, yeah, they're delicious. So that was very satisfying.

It's amazing. Even when you talk about that, you know, you just use your imagination and you throw these flavors together. Yes. So how was it before you got into this way of cooking?

I've been trying to pin that down. I've never been confident with recipes, so I would have said I wasn't a confident cook anyway. And if I did bother to follow a recipe, it would usually work out. But it felt like a big effort. So I probably had my go to dishes that I felt confident with, maybe that I'd grown up with a bit like a Bolognese. And I did cook quite a lot of pasta. And I hardly use pasta at all now. Especially now that I've seen your idea of using cabbage instead of pasta in the cabbage carbonara.

I don't know where you got the idea, but I like that. So I think I used to feel slightly underconfident and limited because I felt like I probably was not doing something right. That kind of feeling. And probably also, to be fair, I was often in a rush and my life is a bit calmer now. And I think this way of thinking about food really plays well to that. And I stop and think about what I'm going to Cook more and enjoy thinking about it rather than thinking, oh goodness, I've got to do this. I think I could have done that before but I didn't feel equipped to just see it as such an adventure, like little tiny daily adventures. But it's really nice to think, oh, right, I've got a courgette and I've got some mushrooms, what can I do? And I think I didn't approach it in that way before.

Yeah, I feel more confident and I feel just, I enjoy it more and.

I think then this becoming this sort of self enforcing cycle, isn't it? When you enjoy it more, you'll do it more and the more you do it, the more satisfying it becomes. So you enjoy it more. So you keep doing it.

Exactly. Well, I've got a couple of questions for you actually. Firstly, I've mentioned foil twice and I'm not really into waste and throwing things away, so I feel a bit bad about that. So your view on steaming stuff or like cooking fish in an oven without foil, I'd love a bit of advice on that so that I'm wasting less. And then the other thing, since I've enjoyed cooking more, we go camping and we've got a stove that you can cook on top of. And also where we go on holiday, there's a very, very old Rayburn type oven that you just put wood in and it gets hot and you cook on top of it. And obviously when you're cooking like that, it's even more mindful because you've had to plan it in advance. You can't waste stuff and it takes a long time.

You've had to build the fire and make all the effort to cook the food. So that's really lovely. But it always seems to taste better when fire's involved. Is that just the environment or do you have the same experience? That's my two questions for you.

Oh, I have a sort of very special thing about cooking with fire because my dad was, you know, a self proclaim pyromaniac so he would always cook on fire and I think it's very common in Greece. So you know, we would have a grill with wood charcoal on the balcony. We would cook stuff in the open fireplace. In our apartment in Athens we had a big sort of wood fired oven on the island. So there was always cooking on fire going on. And for me, I don't know, this is just so connected to my father and as he recently left this side of the world, it's sort of even more special for me. So I try to cook on. On fire whenever I can.

And.

And I'm convinced that there is something about the smoke.

Yes.

That makes it tastier. And if you're grilling, like on a grill that works with. With gas, it's just not the same.

Exactly, I agree. But the experience is so lovely as well that you can't help but taste better. So.

Well, that's the thing. And, you know, and I think this must be, again, some sort of primal instinct because humans only started to cook because they learned how to tame the fire. Right. Otherwise they would not have been able to cook. So I think fire and cooking is just so linked for us humans. Even if you don't realize, maybe this is why this very satisfying sort of feeling comes from that. And, you know, and I've watched my dad countless times, you know, cooking even quite delicate things like fish over quite a ferocious fire. And, you know, the art that goes in that.

Because, of course you don't want to burn something. And when it's the open fire, it's more difficult to control it. Of course.

Yeah.

So you kind of have to control the food rather than the fire, as in, you know, how far away is it, how often do you turn it so that it doesn't catch and all these things.

So.

Which I feel very comfortable doing just because I've watched him so many times.

Yeah. And I think there's something. You mentioned the smoke. There's something around the smell anyway, of the smoke. And I love how when it's on your clothes afterwards and things, I just love that. But also something that I feel has changed in me in recent times, since I did the course in, is that smelling the food and knowing how done it is, that's really. I never used to kind of think about it in. In that way.

I'd be more timing things. And now I feel quite different. I've sort of. Well, even a pizza in the oven or something, I feel I can smell when it's done. I might set a timer so that I don't forget that I'm cooking it if I'm in another room. But actually I know that I kind of will know when it's done. It just, you know, the smell of the cheese as it starts to slightly burn a bit and things. It's very satisfying to feel a bit more connected in that way.

Maybe I was just really rubbish at it before, though. So I don't know.

I think all it takes is to actually just stop to notice. And I think most of us just don't because we're in a rush anyway. But we also just don't stop to notice because nobody teaches us this stuff, you know, it's all about the timers. And I'm actually doing it. Like you, I often put on a timer, as in I need to check in 15 minutes. Not because I'm expecting it to be done, but because 15 minutes sounds like a good way.

Roughly the right amount. Yeah.

If I'm expecting it to be done in half an hour, I will make sure I check halfway down just. Just in case I get distracted. I would never expect something to be done when the timer rings because food is alive. I mean, today's tomato is not tomorrow's tomato.

Yeah, exactly. And baking is. I think it's a different art in a way, isn't it? Because a lot of baking is quite specific. But there's this cake called Can't Go Wrong Cake where you just weigh the eggs in their shells and then have the same amount of butter, flour and sugar. And that's what I tend to do now because again, I've never been a recipe person. I've always thought if I use a recipe, I usually break from it anyway, you know, even in the past. Cause I just don't like to be in a box in that way. But for me, that basic cake recipe and even if I haven't got scales, I've been like, oh, yeah, that's about right.

That'll do. And you know, what the mixture should more or less be like. And so that feeling that it doesn't have to be exact. And yes, you know, probably a lot of baking does have to be exact, but I can make a cake without scales and to know it's roughly probably going to work and some come out better than others. And that's fine. And that's a nice feeling because I.

Mean, yes, baking needs to be exact, but what needs to be exact is the proportions. Right. So there is lots of ways to get the proportions right, whether you weigh the eggs or I think one of the podcast, which was a French lady who the first thing she learned to cook was yogurt cake, where you have a pot of yogurt and then you use that same pot to measure the flour and the butter and the whatever. And I guess it's similar, it's just the same of everything. And as you said, that is another good point you made there and a really good observation. Once you mix the butter, you kind of know how it should be, how thick or thin or you know, what the texture is in the same way as you Know if you make bread long enough, you know when you. The kneading's been enough.

Yeah, exactly.

So again it's all about noticing textures and colors and smells. And of course people have been cooking cakes and everything else before. People didn't used to have scales at home. You might have had scales at the grocery store, but you wouldn't have scales at home.

And the same with batter. I know. Put my flour in. I think that's about enough flour for one egg. I'll put some milk in. That's about how I want it. Do I want it French or do I want it American? Or how far in between? I think probably I was a bit confident with that before. Cause I used to do it quite a lot.

But it's just that kind of feeling is really nice.

And do you remember learning to cook?

Not really. I've thought quite a bit about this. And I was listening to the radio the day and they mentioned school dinners. I probably did cook and make cakes. I think we used to make biscuits and use a fork to push down the middle. So I remember that. I don't think I was very engaged with it. It was much more my sister's thing.

She was the chefy one, I was the arty one. And she's very mathematical person. So again the kind of measuring and specifics probably played better to her skills. I remember I lived abroad for a bit when I was little and we used to sometimes very naughtily get some hot chocolate powder and mix it with some milk and sprinkles and make a paste and then climb out of the window. We were on the bottom floor and go and sit in one of our dens and eat it. Chocolate mix up we called it. But it wasn't really food, to be honest. I think I had a taste in comfort food.

You know, I used to like a triple decker white bread marmalade sandwich, for example. Don't have that anymore. And smash mashed potato with cuts up piece of cheese in it. That was my comfort foods. So I don't really remember being taught to cook. And food, I could enjoy food, but it was because that's what you had, you know, even bringing my children up, the food was to keep them alive and get us to the next part of the day. I didn't really celebrate it like I should have done.

I think what we should and should not, that's another question which probably isn't that relevant because we just do what. What we know how to do. And then we learn something different. Maybe we do start something Different.

And it would be interesting to ask them because maybe they've got some good food memories. I think they've got some bad ones that we laugh about, but I think they might have some good ones as well. So I should ask them.

So when we were sort of discussing coming on the podcast the other day, you talked about how it was a very gentle journey and it took a while for the seed to sprout.

Yes.

So, yeah, tell me a little more about that because that sounds very gentle.

So I came and did your course and I was definitely excited by it and moved by it and I bought one for my brother and said, you must do this. And so something definitely moved inside me a bit when I did it. I really enjoyed doing it. And I felt like, as though how you described the intuition side of things and the flavors and just understanding and having the confidence to balance flavors and the idea of substitution that if you haven't got one ingredient, here's some ideas of other ones that will give the same balance. All that really helped. And I think from the get go, I did think, oh, this is going to be quite fun. But the whole getting into my stride, I would say probably took a couple of years. And I think I was just gently enjoying it in its own right each time, not necessarily linking each experience.

So now when I cook, I feel like I've been adding up all those small moments and it. Yeah, I just feel like I own the space I'm in more when I do it. And. And I think, oh, what have I got? Okay, what can I do with that? And I feel differently about the food as well. That. So, for example, and I can't say I always do this, but like with courgettes, I even cook the end bits. Like, I don't, you know, I used to be religiously. Oh, you know, like, it's a carrot.

Those are the bits you don't eat at the end. And now everything goes in because it's all carrot. And I feel just differently about. I guess some of it is not wanting to waste it and some of it is the flavours as well. Like, I don't know. Do you ever eat an apple core?

I have on occasion. Not. Not very kind of regularly.

It has to be the right kind of apple. Cause some cores aren't nice. But I love the earthy flavor of an apple core. And to me, sort of like the end of the carrot or things that aren't going to actually break your teeth or if they're bitter, then I wouldn't use them. But I'M much less worried about what goes in to, like, a stew or something. Chuck it all in. That's how I feel about it.

Yeah. Because if you cook it long enough, most things will fall apart, so they won't be stemmy or chewy anymore. Yeah. Which, of course, means that you have to use the right way of cooking for different things. Like, if you buy a cheap cut of meat, it's gonna turn out amazingly delicious. If you cook it long and slow, you just can't cook it any other way.

Yeah. Part of that, I guess, is knowing. I mean, we went to see family recently and had beef. I think. I think they called it brisket. Is that a cheap cut of meat? Yeah. And they did it in the slow cooker just with some water. I think that was it.

Just in the slow cooker with water for four or five hours and then used the water to make the gravy. And, oh, my goodness, the beef just fell apart and was so delicious. And I'm, you know, I'm looking forward to doing that. You know, I've now I feel confident enough to pick up. Oh, I would like to do that. Like, when I go for a meal tonight, this is some delicious prawns in garlic with whatever. I'll think, oh, I might make that. And I won't need to ask for the recipe, because I'll just think, oh, I might make that.

And it won't be the same, but that won't matter, you know, but this.

Is really a wonderful thing. Once we start, well, paying attention to all the flavors around us, we can pick up inspiration everywhere, all the time. And I think this is another thing I like saying, you know, it all gets filed in the back of your head somewhere. And this is what then helps you to get the ideas. When you're standing in front of the fridge and you think, oh, gosh, what? What are we having tonight?

No, exactly.

And yeah, because we are eating so regularly three times a day, there is endless opportunities to pick up ideas and keep that reference library of flavor kind of well stocked.

Yes, no, exactly. And I feel like I used to get a bit bored. Like, I would think, oh, what can I make? You know, what could I possibly cook? And I don't really have that sensation anymore because I sometimes think, oh, I shouldn't do that again. I do that a lot because it's something that I enjoy. But you can use the same ingredients in lots of different ways even. And I'm going through a bit of a phase at the moment. If, you know, I'm really enjoying spinach in the morning with some eggs and some. What? You know, that kind of.

But I'm. I love making poached eggs. But actually, if you make an omelette, it's a whole different meal with the same ingredients, you know, so somehow approaching things in a more intuitive way leaves space to. Well, at least for me, I don't think, what shall I do? I think, oh, what shall I do? And it's just a different sensation, you know.

Well, it's that sort of seeing the possibility rather than the restriction.

Yeah.

Like, oh, what should I do? I can't do this because I don't have this. I can't do this because I don't have this. It's like the possibility of.

Well, like I said to you the other day, because when we planned this and I said, oh, I'm going to make cabbage carbonara for tea, I was excited about that. Got tea time, no eggs. Oh, I thought, oh, my goodness, you know, and I've been really looking forward to it. So instead I thought, well, I won't, you know, I won't worry about that. So I made a roux and put some cheese and some whole grain mustard in it. And it was a slightly different dish and it probably wasn't brilliantly good for me, but it was really delicious. Cabbage and. Cabbage and cheese sauce.

I mean, it's not that different from a carbonara, is it?

Well, exactly that. And that's the other thing when, when you start seeing the similarities and the differences, because that is kind of recognizing the pattern. Like you, you see like, you know, 20 different recipes, say, for tomato sauce, if you sharpen your perception enough to see, well, it's all tomato sauce, but that is using this and that is using that, and that's what makes it different. Then you can use these ideas, components, inspirations in your own way, because again, you can see the pattern, isn't it?

No, exactly. I mean, one of the things. I've tried to cut unnecessary salt out of my diet over the last few years, and I know a lot of that comes from processed food. And adding salt to your food isn't actually a bad thing. You know, I get that, but because I've just been trying to do it purposefully, it then makes you think, well, what else can I use? And I use a lot of pepper. I love the flavor of pepper. And, you know, putting some herbs or some chives or, you know, there's different ways of making something interesting without adding salt to it. And obviously there's salt in a lot Anyway, I've mentioned my cheese and I know that's really salty and I do love that.

I mean, one of the things that salt does, or the main thing that salt does, is that it's. It's enhancing the flavor that's already there. So the more flavor you have, the less salt you need to bring it to life. And I guess this is why there is so much salt in processed food, because there isn't much to start with.

Yes. Yeah. And if you put a whole lemon in a dish or something, then your prevailing flavor is going to be pretty delicious anyway, isn't it?

Yeah. And then just a pinch of salt will just bring it all together. And you don't need lots of salt. Yeah. Would you be able to put the finger on what is your favorite food or dish?

Yeah, but I think my favourite dish probably doesn't have much cooking in it, really, if I'm honest, because you play that game. What would your last meal be? I just love a cheese ploughman's with fresh crunchy vegetables, an apple, some really nice bread, some of that cheddar cheese that kind of almost has grains of salt in it. So that's. I think that would probably be my favorite way of eating, but I don't do it very often. But I do. I think one of the things, for me, I suppose tins are convenient, frozen food is convenient, and they're both quite healthy, aren't they? So I think that habit of just being a bit more mindful about food has definitely moved me towards the fresher side of food and that I really. Well, I really hope I don't go backwards. You know, I used to some.

I'm sure there's nothing wrong with it. Sometimes you do go and get a takeaway curry from the supermarket, but now I just wouldn't because I know that I can throw together some vegetables and some. Some herbs, some spices and a tin of tomatoes and it'll be nicer by what I want, you know, and actually not that difficult. Okay. It's not five minutes in the microwave, but it probably is five minutes with doing some other stuff in between and come back every 10 minutes to check it for half an hour. You know, it's. It doesn't stop you doing things, does it?

Well, yeah, exactly. I think a lot of the time we think we spend with cooking and that it takes so much time is. Is all the worrying and the stressing about it, because when you actually just open the fridge and start cooking, it doesn't take that long.

That's right. Definitely. And things like, I mean, you only need to have like two or three tomatoes in and you can make tomato soup. You can actually make quite a lot with very little. I think you have to ask yourself fewer questions and go. I used to find shopping really exhausting and now I pretty much go around and get quite similar ingredients every week at the shop and make lots of different things. And I don't think, oh, no, what am I going to cook? I think, oh, well, you know, I fancy some chicken or some weeks I don't really buy much meat at all and I have a vegetable week. But I know that once I've got what I've got, I'll be able to make something with it.

So I don't think really about what I'm going to make in the same way that I used to. Does that make sense?

Yeah, well, it makes total sense to me. And, you know, I'm just so happy that, you know, I've always thought it is possible to pass on this approach to other people. You know, it's not like some secret talent, it's actually just a skill we can teach, we can learn and we can practice. And I'm just so, so thrilled to see that you have just taken that inspiration and run with it and it now works for you in your own way. And it's amazing.

It's great. I'm very grateful. I mean, in a way it's felt a bit like it's almost maybe an unlearning as well, or like liberating yourself. Because you said, really you grew up with this style of cooking. There wouldn't. There wasn't. Your parents didn't have a recipe book to follow from. They made stuff.

And I think in, in the uk, the recipe book era was kicked off well, certainly before, but in the 50s it became more of a thing. And then everybody had the Good Housekeeping book in the 70s and 80s and there was Delia. I'm not saying any of this is wrong necessarily, but it was the world I grew up in, a world of recipes. And it's not one I ever felt very comfortable in. Cause you can get things wrong, whereas this way you can't get anything wrong. And I really like that.

That's a very good observation. The other thing you mentioned the other day was that you now eat a lot more vegetables because it's easy. So that is really interesting because a lot of people struggle to eat more vegetables.

Again, it has been a bit of a conscious effort for health reasons, but I steam quite a lot now. I Think people's taste must change as they get older. Because I don't think that when I was 10 or even 20, I would have looked at steamed courgette and been quite as excited as I am now. But I find the flavors of vegetables even like lettuce. Do you remember, I don't know, I had one of those Ladybird books. That was Rapunzel, I think it was. And. And the witch was allowed to take the woman's baby cause she'd caught the husband stealing lettuce from her garden.

And as a child, I never understood, why would you steal a lettuce? I mean, it was beyond me. And now I think I probably would steal a lettuce. So I do think flavors, my flavor, my perception of flavors has changed. But I steam quite a lot of vegetables, I do saute them. I eat quite a lot raw. And again, with the most meals that I cook, if I'm not going to be standing there with a glass of wine, chatting and cooking as part of the enjoyment together of an evening, I'll often just put vegetables in with whatever I'm cooking. And that either goes in the oven or sits on a medium heat on the hob and does itself while I'm doing something else. And then you can just use.

Even vegetables that look like they probably are quite near the end of their meaningful life can still be quite delicious in something.

Yeah, I find that too, all the time. Because, yeah, you know, I think maybe, you know, that I run this little whole food shop, so we forever seem to be eating the leftover vegetables that were not sold. So they're often past their best, but they're still perfectly edible, perfectly delicious. And yeah, I'm well versed in eating not the freshest vegetables. And they're fine.

Exactly. And better than wasting them.

Yes. And of course, you know, that's another thing that I now can see so clearly that around the shop, when a vegetable is not in season, it just goes bad so much quicker.

Oh, wow. Okay.

Because either it's already passed by the time it arrives, or sometimes it's kind of not quite ripe and never ripens. It's really interesting how at the peak of the season, things keep the best.

No, no, it's that close.

Maybe it's a similar answer to what you said earlier about the ploughmans. But when you don't feel like cooking, what do you cook or what do you eat?

Well, I do love Marmite on toast or cheese and biscuits. Just trying to think, what else? Also beans on toast. And my daughter, my Youngest made up this amazing mix of spices for me for Christmas, which has got. Oh. Which is the smoky smoked paprika and chili powder and a few different spices in it. And it kind of almost makes something that's a bit like a Mexican bean type, but it's very hot. And baked beans with a spoon of that in. Or actually, as I've learned to my peril, probably more like a quarter of a spoon is really.

So baked beans with an egg. That would be my easiest, almost can't be bothered type food.

And, you know, and if you think about that, it's not necessarily bad. You know, beans and egg and tomato and spices. That. That is actually perfectly healthy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, and I do, you know, I've. I buy pizza sometimes. If I have pizza. I usually do these days, have a bit of salad on the side. I feel like it wouldn't work in the long run if I just. There's something. There's something that I need some fiber to balance these things out.

My body just knows that, you know.

And, you know, there is also certain sort of freshness and juiciness in a salad that actually goes really well with stodgy things like, I don't know, even risotto. Risotto with a sort of sprightly green salad is just so much better.

Yes. No, that's true. Or crunchy garlic bread. But that's another story, because texture matters, doesn't it? You know, I think that's. I sometimes think, well, I don't know, like some nachos with a chili or, you know, it just kind of makes it yummier, doesn't it? Yorkshire pudding with a roast.

You know, you think it's just a small detail, but actually it isn't. It just really makes a totally different experience out of it.

And I still think I'm. I mean, I'm on this journey, but I do. I know people who are just really naturally very intuitive with food. And this is somebody that I'm thinking of. And I think, wow, how did you make that so good? How did you learn to make that so good? They're quite young. They shouldn't really know that thing. It's, you know, but it's just there. And, you know, I don't think I'll ever be like that, but I feel more like that than I ever did, which is great.

So you were saying how you just throw in the whole lot and waste little. So not wasting or making do with what you have is sort of one of the sort of guiding principles that you've had for a long time, right, in other areas of your life?

Well, yes, because when I sort of started Turtledoves, that was using old jumpers to make new things. So that was for a long time. And that came. That wasn't just out of low wire. I mean, I used to work for a company many, many years ago called Scrap Scrap that did a similar thing. So that's where I got my inspiration for, look, here's some old fabric that nobody wants. What can we make with it? That's nice. And so then I started doing that with jumpers.

And that was how turtle doves was born. And in a lot of ways, I am still like that. I mean, probably it's just part of who I am. I've got a bench in my front garden now that that was. Somebody was getting rid of. Cause it had no seat. So we made a seat for it and now it's useful again. You know, you can get a lot of use out of something before it's actually rubbish.

But although you say sort of say guiding principle, I think it's almost more that it's a pleasure. I just. I do try to not be wasteful, but it's the feeling you get when you use things up or think, oh, yeah, I know what I could do with that. That's such a nice feeling. So it's not more like I. Not so much like I need to do something with that or I couldn't possibly throw it away. It's just that lovely feeling when you save something and think, oh, and whether that's the potato, that is the last one that you think, oh, I wasn't even gonna cook anything with potato. And then you think, oh, I know, but if I do this, it'll, you know, I don't know, silly example, probably, or an old pair of jeans that have worn out.

And you think, well, that would make, you know, I could make a cushion for the garden seat. Or, you know, this is just a nice feeling.

Yeah. I find it very difficult to throw away stuff. And I find big satisfaction out of thinking, oh, I got this piece of something. Something somewhere there. I think that's exactly what I need for this now.

Yeah. Oh, and I asked the question that. But I think I rambled on and we didn't get to hear the answer. But what do you.

Do you use tin foil very rarely these days? I think I often use. More often these days, use baking paper, including, to make pockets for fish and.

Sort of bring it round and then just fold it. Yeah.

I have been Known to kind of keep the tin foil and use it again.

Mm. Dave.

I've done that too. And sometimes I find just putting a lid on and keeping the heat down also kind of does this kind of steaming thing.

Yeah.

Although I think probably my favorite way of cooking fish is just baking it either whole, which is how I grew up with baked whole fish or grilled whole fish. But even just. Just a fish fillet, you smear something tasty on top. I mean, could be olive paste, could be pesto, could be curry paste, whatever.

Yeah.

Just smear something tasty on top, put it in the oven, 15 minutes later, amazing piece of fish. Done.

That sounds good.

Yeah, I do that quite a lot when we have any fish in the freezer. Because to go and buy fish, if I don't want to buy supermarket fish, if I want to go to a fishmonger, it's sort of like half an hour away.

Bit more of a luxury.

Yeah. But if we go there, we try to buy, you know, several things that. That can go in the freezer. Yeah. So if you were going to share your three favorite tips for other people to try in their kitchen, something that has really helped you, or the easiest way to make something taste amazing, whatever you can think of. What would that be?

Give me a minute. I should have prepared this, shouldn't I?

Whatever comes to mind. I'm sure it's a good tip.

I think that not thinking too hard about it and just starting, and I know you said this the other day in one of your written pieces, but just start chopping an onion and see what happens. I literally. I very rarely start a dish without an onion. To me, they're pretty much the base of everything. And if I'm going to cook bacon, I tend to start it from a cold pan because then it seems to go a bit more flavoursome. And also, I know some things have to stay in the fridge, but if I've kept tomatoes, like, say I'm away for a few days, I'll put them in the fridge, just like, to make them last as long as possible. But generally speaking, quite a lot of food now I keep out before I'm gonna eat it, because things taste so much better when they're not too cold. And in fact, I came back from being away and at lunch made a wrap and the tomatoes had been in the fridge, so I warmed them up a bit because I just don't like them cold anymore.

So keeping food at the temperature that's right for it makes it tastier, I think.

Yeah. I Think that includes cheese. Obviously cheese is kept in the fridge.

But to take it out, get it to room temperature.

Yeah, that does make a difference and I think I should find out. I always like to understand exactly why that is, but I think with tomatoes it's actually said specifically to not keep them in the fridge.

Yes, I think that's right. I just didn't want them to go over while I was away, you know, but. And apparently there's something like don't put bread in the fridge because it goes off quicker if you put it in the fridge. There's something to do with the lowering the temperature that makes the flour a damp thing happens and it makes it go off quicker, apparently. And I love. I like to have, for example, peas in the freezer because I think peas are really tasty with a lot of things anyway. Or you can very quickly make a pea soup, which I love.

Yeah. Frozen peas are an amazing instant dinner and, you know, I'm a huge fan of tins of beans and lentils and chickpeas. I always have that. That is also a kind of almost instant dinner.

Exactly. And I love putting like, chop up some red onions, some cucumbers, some tomato, you know, whatever else you've got, put it with a tin of mixed beans and it's such a nice salad for a supper with a baked potato or whatever, you know, I really love that.

Well, that was definitely more than three great tips.

Oh, yeah, eventually, eventually, eventually.

Yeah, that's the. That's the thing, you know, we all have them. We all have them and they're all inspiring to someone else, so it's worth sharing.

There is also, I don't know if you've seen this app called Yucca Y U K A. I've heard of it. It's got a carrot, it's a motif, I think, and it's free. But if you want to, you can pay £15 and that will get you a year's extra type of membership. I don't know, but it's all goes towards. Towards research and you bit in the supermarket or in the shop or whatever bit the barcode and it'll tell you whether the advert additives in it are deemed to be possibly dangerous or. And then it'll also give you what are other better versions of a similar thing to eat to be healthier. And without being obsessive about it, I'm quite enjoying the educational journey that I'm on with that because some things I'm like, oh, I didn't think that was that bad or Even better.

I didn't think that was that good.

Well, that's a great tip, too, because, I mean, one tip is definitely to read the labels because, you know, you'd be surprised, but obviously we don't always know how to interpret those labels.

Exactly. Or have time.

And of course, I'll have to add as much as possible. Stick to the things that do not have labels. Like, you know, carrots don't have labels.

No, exactly. If it hasn't got a barcode, you can pretty much guarantee it's going to be okay. But the difference, like, between I did buy gravy granules and the difference between one type that I could have bought and the other was massive in the potentially quite dangerous additives that were in one and were completely not present in the other. Well, why would you. You know, I know making a proper gravy is the best way to do it, but in some instances, it's just nice to know that you feel more informed quite quickly without having to actually put your glasses on and try to read the label.

Well, that too, isn't it? It's such small print. Yeah, it's true.

Great.

Well, maybe with that whole bunch of tips, we'll bring this amazing conversation to an end. Thank you so much, Kate, for sharing all your kitchen wisdom. That's been. Been such an enjoyable conversation and so inspiring.

Thank you for inspiring me on this journey because honestly, it's. I got back in touch wholeheartedly thinking I've got to tell you how much I'm enjoying this and how much difference it's made. So I hope you continue to spread those vibes through kitchens around the world. Definitely.

I could not be more thrilled than IBS Been such a. Such a positive journey for you. So thank you very much.

Thank you.