For decades, queer people have been told that acceptance comes with conditions - be more normal, more mainstream, more palatable. But a new generation of queer artists is rejecting these expectations entirely. This fourth and final summer special examines how queer voices are choosing authentic expression over respectability politics, even when it comes at real costs.

Featuring conversations with Brendan Maclean from Australia, whose explicit "House of Air" video became his most radical artistic statement; Warren Dumas from Atlanta, who challenges gender expectations through androgynous presentation; SADBOY from New York, who highlights the contradiction between queer influence on culture and its lack of recognition; and Matt Fishel from the UK, who faced industry pressure to hide his gay identity but chose to create the representation he never had growing up.

These artists understand that visibility itself is activism, and that real change comes from refusing to apologise for who you are.

Timestamped Takeaways

01:48 - Brendan Maclean's radical response to respectability politics: "We created the most queer, joyful, unashamed music video I think that's ever existed"

06:26 - Warren Dumas on challenging expectations: "If it makes someone wonder, or if it makes someone stop... it opens up their mind to possibilities of being"

08:15 - SADBOY on queer influence without recognition: "We influence hip hop... The world does not spin without the black gaze"

11:41 - Matt Fishel on industry pressure: "Every single one of them basically said to me... you got to cut the gay content"

13:43 - Warren Dumas on gender double standards: "When you know there are female singers... can display these acts of homosexuality, and it's art. But once a male does it..."

15:16 - Brendan Maclean on career consequences: "It also really spoke to me away from pop music at the time... I went deeply inwards, as deep inwards as I possibly could go"

20:12 - Brendan on finding his way back: "I had to get back on at a drag night... and the next week I was in Italy performing for Bulgari in a castle"

21:01 - SADBOY's mission: "I'm trying to say that it's okay to display emotion... Any type of emotion like it's okay to love and to embrace that love"

23:32 - Matt Fishel on creating representation: "I made these songs for 15 year old me... This is the album I wanted to hear at 15 years old"

Links

• Read deep dives into our queer lives at the blog HERE.
• Check out the official podcast playlist on Spotify.
• Follow the podcast on: Instagram • Tik Tok • Facebook
• See producer and presenter Dan Hall's other work HERE (subtitled version HERE).
• Find composer Paul Leonidou HERE.
• Listen to other episodes at HERE.

Visit the guests' homepages:

• Brendan Maclean HERE
• Paul Andrews HERE
• JSky HERE
• SADBOY HERE

Dan Hall

Dan Hall

And to mark the occasion, our full special episodes which examine the common themes covered by these pioneering first few guests. This fourth and final episode examines how queer artists are rejecting mainstream expectations and embracing authentic expression. We'll hear from four bold voices Brendan McLain from Australia, Warren Dumont and Sad Boy from the USA, and Matt Fishel from here in the UK.

Dan Hall

Before the show begins, please recommend in the key of Q to just one other person this week and let's grow our community.

Dan Hall

For decades, queer people have been told that acceptance comes with conditions be more normal, more mainstream, more palatable. But a fantastic new generation of queer artists is rejecting these expectations entirely. Brendan McLean from Australia describes his most radical artistic statement a glorious music video to promote his single House of ur.

Brendan Maclean

And so we created the most queer, joyful, unashamed music video I think that's ever existed.

Brendan Maclean

And it was a response to respectability politics.

Dan Hall

Brendan explains what that video actually contained.

Brendan Maclean

Very explicit, not safe for work. Filmed in Camden. We flew in porn stars from Berlin. I get hooked on in it and and we go through the gay semiotics, the banned, the hanky code, basically. So.

Dan Hall

There's a little bit a little dribble to come as well, isn't there?

Brendan Maclean

There's a little bit of. It's everything else that was put in him during the day. You know, it all came out in the end. So we made that lots of attention.

Dan Hall

Although just jumping in there, it isn't just explicit. It's incredibly disarming.

Brendan Maclean

Yeah, it was joy.

Dan Hall

Warren Juma from Atlanta explains his mission to challenge expectations through androgynous presentation. Unlike Brenton McLean, he uses the music video to make his point.

Wuhryn Dumas

I consider myself androgynous. But overall I am a queer, pop artist, and my whole gist is to bring joy, bring back feel good music, bring back, you know, music videos, and make you go, wow, you know, is nothing wrong with having a good time and partying and, you know, all of the glamorous things that are in the music industry and that people look up to today.

Wuhryn Dumas

But I feel like the, the soul of it all is missing. I'm really, like, very visual and with anything, with everything. I've always been that way. You know, when people, tell you to. Oh, you should enjoy the book. I'm the one that's like, I'm going to enjoy the movie because I see a lot of things, even when things aren't there.

Wuhryn Dumas

When I listen to any type of music, I instantly have a music video in my head.

Dan Hall

I very much believe Warren's thought that visibility itself can be transformative.

Wuhryn Dumas

If it makes someone wonder, or if it makes someone stop, even if they're, like, not used to seeing a certain look, it it opens up their mind to possibilities of being, if that makes sense. And that's, that's the whole thing with androgyny, I believe, is that, you know, if you're bridging the gap of femininity and masculinity, you know, it makes people realise like objects and things really are objects and things.

Wuhryn Dumas

It's not, you're not going to fall off a cliff if you wear an article of clothing that isn't predominately for your your sex or what society tells you you have to wear, it makes you realise, wow, if these things get correlated with each other and I'm feeling joy regardless, there's there's no limit to what I can be.

Dan Hall

Sad boy from New York describes the contradiction between queer influence on culture and its complete lack of recognition.

SADBOY

With the queer audience. I feel like we influence hip hop. We influence hip hop with like, so like even being behind the scene with like, fashion, like we we control that, that realm, even when it comes down to like little pieces of slang that they use in a in our songs. Like it might be from like five years ago.

SADBOY

The slang is a, the terms are created by the black queer community. But we're still we're still in the mix of of the culture. The world does not spin without the black gaze. It just does not. When it comes to fashion, music, everything. We kind of we're like the first to jump on everything.

Dan Hall

But recognition and support can be lacking from within the community.

SADBOY

With the black queer community, we we don't have, we don't push each other up a lot. I feel like once we start supporting each other, that's when we're going to win. Like, I see a lot of us doing collaborations with each other. A lot of us are starting to become friends with each other and and hang out and do different things I think is bubbling now.

SADBOY

But before there wasn't like a big like group of people, you'd be like, okay, we're going to do this all together. We gonna make it to the top.

Dan Hall

Choosing authenticity over acceptance comes with real costs. Matt Fishel from the UK describes the industry pressure that he faced to hide his gay identity.

Matt Fishel

I landed a few really good meetings with them, but basically most of the major labels in the UK at the time, they would all listen, you know, and they'd like be nodding away and looking kind of like, and then every single one of them basically said to me, great melodies. You got a good voice. You're obviously a very good at telling stories with your words, but you got to cut the gay content.

Dan Hall

Matt describes the impossible choice he was given.

Matt Fishel

From their perspective. They would always push it that art has to sell and you can make all these great art all day long, but it's no one's going to buy it, no one's going to buy it, and nobody will ever buy music sung by a man singing about other men. It just will not sell. Period. No discussion. Let's not try it.

Matt Fishel

Let's not discuss it. It's not going to happen.

Dan Hall

Well, not even to other game in.

Matt Fishel

The discussion was always. And whenever I would bring that up, the discussion was it's such a small, minuscule percentage of a buying audience that we don't care.

Dan Hall

Warren identifies the double standards in how queer expression is received based on gender.

Wuhryn Dumas

When you know there are female singers or rappers that, aren't even close to being queer, can display these acts of, you know, homosexuality, and it's, you know, it's hot or it's like, oh, that's great is art. But once a male does it, it's like, oh, well, let's just keep it over there in the gay world, or let's just leave it over there.

Wuhryn Dumas

We can't air this on TV. Oh, we can't show this. It's like, oh, why are people so honed on to that? Where it's like, it's absolutely forbidden for men to be this way. And but when women do it, it's like, oh, okay, we're we're it's art. It's beautiful. It's amazing. And I would never understand that.

Dan Hall

Economic pressures make compromise tempting. And this reality is acknowledged by Sad Boy.

SADBOY

There are indie artists that really, that really killed it. Especially, Lil NAS X. That whole first run of, Old Town Road. That was independent. That record was moving independently and kept climbing the charts and climbing. And I don't think he. I don't think he signed until like, he went almost got to number one.

Dan Hall

Don't don't you think you'd be tempted, though, if a major label came to you and said, you know, quit the quit all the gay stuff, we will sign you up?

SADBOY

Yes. Because it's like, okay, I want eat. I want to eat breakfast tomorrow, but I do. Should I do this in order to, like, have breakfast for everybody? I feel like we're kind of shifting. The culture is shifting, especially which I was streaming is giving so many people, platforms now to really, like, not need a label, not to be grown by a label, to really just trailblazer and just push without, that big machine behind you.

Dan Hall

Brendan McClain found that his explicit video work carried unexpected consequences for his career.

Brendan Maclean

It also made me realise I have, no other jobs in my life. It's not just making bops. I wanted to be a part of the queer conversation and and leave a mark on the world, but it also really spoke to me away from pop music at the time. Kind of pulled back the veneer. I got a little glimpse of the other side and went, oh, that's where that goes.

Brendan Maclean

So I went inwards a went deeply inwards, as deep inwards as I possibly could go.

Dan Hall

Yet these artists understand the importance of representation for future generations. Warren Duma explains his motivation.

Wuhryn Dumas

You have to honestly, you have thick skin and you have to truly put on armour and stand in yourself. And I had to realise in order for me to live in this world, I have to embrace myself, but then also embrace those in my community.

Dan Hall

What if success looked different? What if, instead of seeking acceptance from systems that were never designed to include them, these artists created their own definitions of achievement. Brenton McClain found that returning to queer spaces revitalised his career.

Brendan Maclean

Yeah, I just had to wait and I had to get I had to run out of money, and I had to work in a box office and feel like the world had slipped away from me, and I had to get back on at a drag night or something like that, something gay. And the next week I was in Italy performing for, like, Bulgari in a castle.

Brendan Maclean

Because I just got back on stage again and went, yeah, I'm back. And that record let me do that. Otherwise I would have stopped. I would have stopped and felt like I had a secret.

Dan Hall

Sad boy articulating his mission to normalise emotional expression in hip hop and beyond.

SADBOY

I'm trying to say that it's okay to display emotion. It's okay to show that you've been hurt. It's okay to show that you've been sad. It's okay to display that you've been angry. Any type of emotion like it's okay to love and to embrace that love like that's that's my main goal. I think as the content from younger people comes out and with us voicing a lot of, what we want and what we want to go for and not being afraid to express ourselves.

SADBOY

I think it's really big, and I think one of the people that kind of like pioneered for us in hip hop is Drake. Drake has opened a door for a lot of a lot of us. I know Jay-Z had his couple moments where he's vulnerable in and out, but by Drake really opened up the door for, for to, to give that vulnerability.

Dan Hall

Warren Do More sees all expression as essentially drag different roles that we play in different contexts.

Wuhryn Dumas

When I'm doing my my art, I can become another version of myself. And if you realise there's so many versions of yourself that you put on all these masks are our drag. You know, when you're being a brother that you know, you're being, a friend to someone, you're being this and that to someone. Those are all roles, and you have to act in those certain parts.

Wuhryn Dumas

And then when you are putting on these articles of clothing, you're bringing, a certain appearance to the world, and you want people to believe this is a certain part of yourself when there's still another party is out that you're trying to match. So, you know, I know for me, I had to realise, okay, what do I want to be once I got out of high school, you know, you're funny or independents and you have the choice to be who you want to be.

Wuhryn Dumas

And you know me going against what my mom is telling me what I should be. I had to realise, like, I have to accept myself and accept that unfortunately, in this world, you're going to have to go through a lot of more things. You know, it's one thing to be black and deal with the world. And I think I think having that problem first for me kind of helped with me being queer at the same time, because you are already being defied all these other things with being black.

Dan Hall

And Matt Fishel, he chooses to create the representation that he never had growing up.

Matt Fishel

I made these songs for 15 year old me, you know, this is this is what I wrote them for. I when I made Not Thinking Straight, I was suppose thinking at the time, this is the album I wanted to hear at 15 years old. This is the album that I wanted to hug and jump up and down and to scream about.

Matt Fishel

So it wasn't there for me. So I'm going to make it. I could be like, oh, you know, he'd be like, cool, that. But no, I sincerely would be like, this.

Wuhryn Dumas

Is the best album I've ever done.

Dan Hall

These artists remind us that respectability was always a trap.

Dan Hall

Real change comes from refusing to apologise for who you are, from creating space for all the ways that queerness can manifest. And from understanding that visibility itself is activism.

Dan Hall

Thanks for listening to this special episode of In the Key of Cube. You've heard Brendan McClain, Warren Dumont, Sad Boy, and Matt Fishel. Many thanks to all of them for sharing their stories with such honesty and courage. And remember, those first ten episodes featuring these artists and others are all available now, remastered and extended. The links are in the show.

Dan Hall

Notes.

Dan Hall

You can find more episodes of In the Key of Q and our regular blog at In the Key of KGW.com.

Dan Hall

Remember to extend our community by subscribing and recommending the show to at least one other person this week.

Dan Hall

Our theme tune is by Paul Leonidou at Unstoppablemonsters.com, and special thanks to Moray Laing for his continued support.

Dan Hall

This has been a special edition of in the Key of Q I'm Dan Hall. Go peddle your gay agenda and I'll see you next Tuesday.