Have you ever recommended breathing techniques to clients to help them manage panic attacks, trauma or anxiety? Have you considered how breathing may be able to help clients who feel angry? And if so, are you aware that some breathing techniques may be unsuitable depending on the client's existing breathing patterns?

In this podcast episode, Josephine Hughes interviews Nicola Pott, a trained counsellor and EFT practitioner with a background in physiotherapy. Nicola emphasises the importance of understanding individual breathing patterns to effectively manage anxiety, panic attacks, and anger. She shares her experiences with clients, illustrating how breath work can empower individuals to regain control over their symptoms and foster emotional healing. The conversation also highlights the significance of integrating somatic approaches into therapy, as Nicola explains how she tailors her techniques based on the physiological needs of her clients. Additionally, she introduces her training program, "Breathing for Calm," aimed at equipping other therapists with the knowledge and skills to safely implement breath work in their practices.

Takeaways:

• Breath work can help reduce anxiety and panic attacks by correcting over breathing patterns.
• Counsellors benefit from understanding physiological aspects of breathing to assist clients better.
• Different breath work techniques should be tailored to individual client needs for maximum effectiveness.
• Medical precautions are essential when using breath work, especially for pregnancy and stroke survivors.
• Nicola integrates her physiotherapy knowledge with counselling to adopt a somatic approach.
• Teaching clients about their breathing patterns empowers them to manage panic symptoms effectively.

Keywords

breathwork, counselling, anxiety, panic attacks, anger management, emotional freedom technique, somatic approach, physiotherapy, mental health, trauma, breathwork, therapy, training, counseling, EFT, trauma, anxiety, private practice, insurance, client care

Chapters:

• 00:40 - Introduction to Breath Work and Its Benefits
• 01:29 - Nicola's Journey into Counselling
• 05:20 - Understanding Breathing Patterns and Panic Attacks
• 08:08 - Empowering Clients Through Breath Work
• 18:43 - Integrating Breath Work for Trauma and Anger Management
• 12:57 - Case Study: Amy's Transformation Through Breath Work
• 27:20 - Developing Effective Breath Work Techniques
• 27:38 - Training Others in Breath Work
• 49:42 - Conclusion: The Future of Breath Work in Therapy

You can find details of Nicola's Breathing for Calm course HERE and if you'd like to read more about Nicola's therapy practice, click HERE

Setting up in private practice? Download my free checklist HERE

Need ideas for how to get clients? Download my free handout 21 Ways for Counsellors to Attract New Clients HERE

You can also find me here:

The Good Enough Counsellors Facebook Group

Josephine Hughes on Facebook

Josephine Hughes on YouTube

My website: josephinehughes.com

The information contained in Good Enough Counsellors is provided for information purposes only. The contents of this podcast are not intended to amount to advice and you should not rely on any of the contents of this podcast. Professional advice should be obtained before taking or refraining from taking any action as a result of the contents of this podcast.

Josephine Hughes disclaims all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on any of the contents of this podcast.

Nicola: 00:00:01

So it's that kind of knowledge that can make a big difference when it comes to choosing the right breath work technique for the client, getting maximum benefit, minimising the risk of adverse effects.

Nicola: 00:00:13

And also there's medical precautions for certain kinds of breath work.

Nicola: 00:00:16

Like, for instance, if somebody is pregnant, it's suggested that they don't retain the breath and so different kinds of breath work are needed.

Nicola: 00:00:25

And so breath work is overall low risk, but I feel it's important to absolutely minimize that risk.

Josephine Hughes: 00:00:40

Welcome to today's Good Enough Counsellors podcast.

Josephine Hughes: 00:00:43

I'm Josephine Hughes and today I'm joined by Nicola Pott, counsellor and EFT practitioner.

Josephine Hughes: 00:00:50

And Nicola uses the pronouns she and her.

Josephine Hughes: 00:00:53

I.

Josephine Hughes: 00:00:54

I first met Nicola back in: 2021

Josephine Hughes: 00:01:01

Nicola is not only a counsellor, she's also worked as a physiotherapist for over 20 years and that experience has influenced her counselling work, and that's why I've invited her today, so you can hear how she uses her skills to help her counselling clients.

Josephine Hughes: 00:01:19

Welcome, Nicola.

Nicola: 00:01:21

Thank you.

Nicola: 00:01:21

Really happy to be here.

Josephine Hughes: 00:01:23

Yeah, it's lovely to see you.

Josephine Hughes: 00:01:24

And so I'm looking forward to the opportunity for people to hear a bit more about you and how you work.

Josephine Hughes: 00:01:29

So, first off, can you tell me what interested you in becoming a counsellor?

Nicola: 00:01:35

So, thinking back, I originally became interested in counselling whilst I was working as a physio.

Nicola: 00:01:42

So whilst doing physio assessments, physio treatments, patients would chat to me and I, over time, I realized that I had a natural affinity to helping people who were struggling with mental and emotional pain.

Nicola: 00:01:59

And so over the years, I kind of explored how I could potentially do more of that and ended up doing an introductory counselling course and then an intermediate certificate.

Nicola: 00:02:12

Absolutely loved it.

Nicola: 00:02:14

And from then, I knew that at some point I wanted to do my full counselling training.

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:20

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:20

And you actually ended up with a master's in counselling?

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:23

I think I did, yes.

Nicola: 00:02:24

Did a master's at Salford, yes.

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:27

Brilliant.

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:28

So, can you tell us a little bit about your counselling practice?

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:31

So, I mentioned that you're in practice.

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:35

You're in private practice, aren't you?

Josephine Hughes: 00:02:37

Tell us a bit about your private practice and the sorts of clients that you work with, the sort of work that you do.

Nicola: 00:02:42

So, I work either online or over the phone.

Nicola: 00:02:45

Most of my clients are online.

Nicola: 00:02:47

Oh, right, yeah.

Nicola: 00:02:48

And it's mainly trauma and anxiety and panic attacks that I work with and I work full time, so I've got a full private practice and I use a combination of the counseling, eft, as in emotional freedom techniques, the tapping, eye movement therapy, and also the breath work.

Josephine Hughes: 00:03:08

Yes.

Josephine Hughes: 00:03:09

You've got quite a few different skills that you're bringing in there, haven't you?

Nicola: 00:03:13

Yeah, that's right, I.

Josephine Hughes: 00:03:15

So can you tell me a bit about how does your previous experience influence your counselling?

Josephine Hughes: 00:03:22

So, you know, like many people, obviously you became interested through your previous work because you're working alongside people and you realize that you're spending time listening to them and you want to do more of that.

Josephine Hughes: 00:03:33

But actually, also, as well, what you've done is you've integrated some of the knowledge that you used with your physiotherapy, which people I think might find quite surprising because they're probably thinking, well, how can you use physiotherapy with counselling clients?

Josephine Hughes: 00:03:46

So the idea of massaging them or something comes to mind.

Josephine Hughes: 00:03:49

So tell us how you use your specialist knowledge and experience.

Nicola: 00:03:53

Yeah, so because of my experience in both fields, I have a very somatic approach to my counselling practice.

Nicola: 00:04:03

So I work very much with helping people to calm their nervous system and doing that in several different ways.

Nicola: 00:04:11

So that can be done by working on the cognitive level, can be done by working.

Nicola: 00:04:15

Working on the emotional level and also on the physiological level.

Nicola: 00:04:21

So that's how I integrate it.

Nicola: 00:04:23

So I use my respiratory physio skills to work on the physiological level.

Nicola: 00:04:29

So I'm helping people to work with their breath to help their nervous system to be more calm.

Nicola: 00:04:35

And so then it can help to reduce anxiety, it can help people to reduce or stop panic attacks, it can help people with anger management.

Nicola: 00:04:44

So I find that it's a really powerful way to work.

Josephine Hughes: 00:04:48

Yeah, really sort of powerful tool.

Josephine Hughes: 00:04:51

It's really sort of interesting because I know that panic attacks is an area that we've talked about, but I didn't realise you actually used it for anger management as well.

Nicola: 00:05:01

Yes.

Josephine Hughes: 00:05:02

So let's just talk a little bit more about those different scenarios.

Josephine Hughes: 00:05:06

So tell me a bit about.

Josephine Hughes: 00:05:08

I imagine for most people, they sort of think about breathing in response to helping people with panic attacks.

Josephine Hughes: 00:05:14

So should we start there and find out how you use breastwork with your panic attack clients?

Nicola: 00:05:19

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:05:20

So my last role in the NHS was as a specialist in breathing pattern disorders at the Northwest lung centre.

Nicola: 00:05:28

And breathing pattern is basically somebody's habitual way of breathing on a day to day basis.

Nicola: 00:05:35

And the most common breathing pattern disorder I was working with was hyperventilation, which is basically over breathing it's when somebody's breathing more than their body needs.

Nicola: 00:05:46

And so a big component of many panic attacks, when someone's experiencing breathlessness as part of the panic attack, is actually over breathing.

Nicola: 00:05:57

So in that physio role, I was basically working with people who were hyperventilating, people who were having panic attacks, but I was helping them through the breath.

Nicola: 00:06:07

What that involves is, first of all, helping them to identify where their everyday breathing pattern isn't working for them, which.

Nicola: 00:06:15

Which, in a very simple way, means helping them to breathe less.

Nicola: 00:06:20

So we want to stop the overbreathing and bring their breathing pattern back to a normal, calm pattern, because over breathing creates all sorts of horrible symptoms, which then make the person feel scared, because they're like, what is happening to me?

Nicola: 00:06:39

What?

Josephine Hughes: 00:06:39

Dizziness, that sort of thing.

Nicola: 00:06:41

Dizzy needles, breathlessness, feeling like they're not going to get another breath.

Nicola: 00:06:47

Chest pain, chest tightness, brain fog, feeling dizzy.

Nicola: 00:06:52

As you said, there's quite a number of symptoms that can be caused because.

Josephine Hughes: 00:06:56

People can end up in a and e, can't they, with panic attacks?

Nicola: 00:06:59

Yeah, absolutely, that's right.

Nicola: 00:07:02

And also what can happen is people can actually go from doctor to doctor to doctor with various symptoms who are saying, no, actually, we've done heart tests, and your heart's fine, or they've been to a lung specialist, and they're like, there's nothing wrong with your breathing.

Nicola: 00:07:17

And so over the time, they develop health anxiety.

Josephine Hughes: 00:07:20

Oh, right.

Nicola: 00:07:22

Because they keep being told there's nothing wrong with you, and they're like, well, there obviously is something wrong with me.

Nicola: 00:07:27

You know, I can't breathe, I'm getting palpitations.

Nicola: 00:07:30

And so when they finally see somebody who knows about breathing patterns and knows about over breathing, and they spot, this is what's happening, and I think this is what's causing your symptoms.

Nicola: 00:07:42

It's such an amazing moment for them because suddenly it all makes sense and it's treatable.

Nicola: 00:07:48

So once we teach somebody how to bring their breathing pattern back to a normal pattern, they can control those symptoms.

Nicola: 00:07:56

And so a big part of breath work for panic attacks is helping them to do exactly that.

Nicola: 00:08:01

So it's empowering people with that knowledge so that they can recognize, ah, okay, I'm panicking, I'm over breathing.

Nicola: 00:08:08

And then they can start to correct their breath, start to breathe less, and then their symptoms can start to ease.

Josephine Hughes: 00:08:15

Because it's sort of like a negative feedback loop, isn't it?

Nicola: 00:08:18

Absolutely.

Josephine Hughes: 00:08:19

People get panicky, they get the panic attacks, they get frightened, then it just goes round and round, doesn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:08:26

And I guess what you're doing is you're sort of like breaking that negative feedback loop through giving them that power.

Nicola: 00:08:33

That's right.

Nicola: 00:08:34

And breaking it on the level of the thought, because they're thinking, say if they can't breathe, they're thinking, I'm about to die.

Nicola: 00:08:43

So once they're given the knowledge about hyperventilation or over breathing, then they can tell themselves, okay, I feel like I'm about to die, but actually it's just that I'm over breathing.

Nicola: 00:08:56

And so that helps reduce the fear.

Nicola: 00:08:58

And then there's the breathing techniques that help to reduce the actual breathing, the over breathing, so that they can start to have their symptoms ease and feel calm.

Josephine Hughes: 00:09:08

So I'm sort of really interested.

Josephine Hughes: 00:09:11

I didn't warn you.

Josephine Hughes: 00:09:12

I was going to ask you.

Josephine Hughes: 00:09:12

This is just sort of coming out of the conversation.

Josephine Hughes: 00:09:15

I'm really sort of interested.

Josephine Hughes: 00:09:16

So, you know, when people.

Josephine Hughes: 00:09:18

Because I think often people don't realize that they're having a panic attack, do they?

Josephine Hughes: 00:09:21

So do a lot of people just who've got, like, anxiety end up in the wrong place, they end up in hospital or they end up at the GP rather than ending up with someone who's psychological, who can help them work through it?

Nicola: 00:09:35

Absolutely, yeah.

Nicola: 00:09:36

Yes.

Josephine Hughes: 00:09:37

And did you see that quite a lot in that work that you were doing?

Nicola: 00:09:41

Definitely.

Nicola: 00:09:42

It was really common that patients had been going round to different doctors, different health professionals for years until they finally made it to our service.

Josephine Hughes: 00:09:52

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:09:53

And knowledge is increasing over the years, but historically, the knowledge about over breathing and breathing pattern problems hasn't.

Nicola: 00:10:03

Hasn't really been there.

Nicola: 00:10:04

Yeah, but it's a lot better than it was.

Josephine Hughes: 00:10:06

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:10:07

And, I mean, did you find that there was sort of like an underlying cause?

Josephine Hughes: 00:10:11

I mean, obviously you were dealing with the breath work, but was there sort of like a.

Josephine Hughes: 00:10:17

I mean, were people coming, having panic attacks because there was an underlying reason, such as some sort of traumatic incident in their past, or is it sort of like just some people just hyperventilate and then the attacks set in?

Josephine Hughes: 00:10:28

Or, you know, is there.

Josephine Hughes: 00:10:29

Is there an initial cause?

Josephine Hughes: 00:10:31

That's what I'm trying to ask.

Nicola: 00:10:33

So it's quite complex in that there can be different kinds of triggers, so there can be biochemical triggers, such as hormones.

Nicola: 00:10:43

So for women, there can be certain times of the cycle, for instance, that they're more likely to over breathe.

Nicola: 00:10:48

What I found in that role was that definitely there was a.

Nicola: 00:10:53

A trauma component, that quite a number of the people I was working with had quite a significant trauma history, and sometimes it was actually a physical incident that had started the issue.

Nicola: 00:11:06

So it may be that they'd had abdominal surgery and it seemed to start after that.

Nicola: 00:11:11

So because they had abdominal surgery and it hurt, they were bracing their abdomens so they weren't breathing with their diaphragm, and they started to breathe at the top of their chest and started to take bigger breaths.

Nicola: 00:11:23

There's some people that have had nose problems, and then they've started mouth breathing, and that's led to over breathing.

Nicola: 00:11:30

But there was definitely a high proportion of clients who had anxiety, who had panic.

Nicola: 00:11:36

That was definitely contributing.

Nicola: 00:11:39

A lot of the people I was working with also had asthma because that was also part of the specialty I was working in.

Nicola: 00:11:46

So the change in the breath because of the asthma was leading to over breathing.

Nicola: 00:11:50

For some people, it can be that they have been conscious about their weight and so they've been holding in their stomach, and then that has led to them breathing at the top of the chest and taking bigger breaths.

Josephine Hughes: 00:12:03

Oh, wow.

Josephine Hughes: 00:12:03

So all sorts of reasons why people get into this sort of terrible sort of feedback loop and get scared.

Josephine Hughes: 00:12:11

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:12:12

That's been, I suppose, quite hard to see them going through that, but also nice to know that you could make a difference to them.

Josephine Hughes: 00:12:20

But I guess, as well, it was that part of what motivated you to train, because you knew that they needed that extra help.

Josephine Hughes: 00:12:28

They needed that help with the trauma as well.

Nicola: 00:12:30

Yeah, absolutely.

Josephine Hughes: 00:12:32

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:12:32

Yes.

Josephine Hughes: 00:12:33

Amazing.

Nicola: 00:12:33

Yeah, definitely.

Nicola: 00:12:34

And lovely to now be in a position where I can help from all those angles.

Josephine Hughes: 00:12:38

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:12:39

And I just think it would be really interesting because you've actually got a, like a case study study of a client who is.

Josephine Hughes: 00:12:46

Their real name isn't Amy, but you've called them Amy on your website.

Josephine Hughes: 00:12:50

Can you tell us a bit about Amy's story and how she used breath work and, well, how you use breath work with her to help her through her story.

Nicola: 00:12:57

Yeah, absolutely.

Nicola: 00:12:59

So Amy was a client who came to me because she was having panic attacks and also anxiety, and she was basically having panic attacks every time she would see her ex partner.

Nicola: 00:13:14

And this was having a really significant impact on her because their life situation meant that she was seeing them quite frequently.

Josephine Hughes: 00:13:22

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:13:23

So what I did was I took all the appropriate information, asked all the questions to find out about the history, and then I had a look at Amy's breathing pattern, and I noticed that she had what I would call a stress breathing pattern in that she was breathing at the top of her chest.

Nicola: 00:13:46

She wasn't using her diaphragm to breathe.

Nicola: 00:13:48

She was using what, the intercostal muscles, which are between the ribs, she was using muscles in the shoulders and she was taking big breaths and she was also breathing more quickly than usual.

Nicola: 00:14:01

And so when somebody's breathing more quickly than usual and when they're taking bigger breaths, that basically leads to over breathing.

Nicola: 00:14:11

So I could see that Amy, in that moment in the session, was over breathing and knew then that what was very likely to be happening during the panic attacks was that that would be increasing.

Nicola: 00:14:22

So she sees her ex, the fight, flight or sympathetic nervous system kicks in, her breathing increases even more, and then she's really significantly over breathing.

Nicola: 00:14:34

And then carbon dioxide levels start to drop, all the horrible symptoms start to happen, and she's terrified.

Nicola: 00:14:42

And so what I did was, I explained this to Amy.

Nicola: 00:14:46

She was really keen to try the breath work, was really relieved to have an explanation about what might be happening to her.

Josephine Hughes: 00:14:55

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:14:56

If I could just interject there.

Josephine Hughes: 00:14:58

That just must be such a relief for people when they realise that.

Josephine Hughes: 00:15:01

That there's actually a physical cause, that what you're doing is sort of like you're empowering them, that.

Josephine Hughes: 00:15:06

Yeah, there's sort of like, this is physiological, it isn't psychological.

Josephine Hughes: 00:15:10

You're not going mad in inverted commas.

Josephine Hughes: 00:15:13

It must be just such a sense of relief for people.

Nicola: 00:15:16

Absolutely.

Nicola: 00:15:17

Because that's such a big part of panic attacks, is people fearing that they're going crazy.

Josephine Hughes: 00:15:22

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:15:23

So that the two main fears tend to be either I'm about to die or I'm going crazy, or both.

Josephine Hughes: 00:15:29

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:15:30

And so probably that information.

Nicola: 00:15:32

Yes.

Nicola: 00:15:33

Is a huge relief.

Josephine Hughes: 00:15:36

It sort of normalizes it, doesn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:15:37

And it helps people to know that actually this is something that can be fixed.

Josephine Hughes: 00:15:41

So tell us what you did with Amy to help her work through with the breath.

Nicola: 00:15:47

So, first of all, I gave the education, explained about over breathing and what it can do, the symptoms it can cause, and then I taught Amy how to breathe with her diaphragm.

Nicola: 00:15:58

So how to relax the upper chest, relax the shoulders, bring the breath down to the diaphragm, breathe at a normal rate, nice, smooth, quiet breathing.

Nicola: 00:16:07

And Amy agreed to practice that regularly, and we came up with a practice schedule that was realistic for her, felt manageable for her.

Nicola: 00:16:16

And I also taught her a recovery task technique.

Nicola: 00:16:19

So that's a technique that helped her to really reduce her breathing, so that in those moments when she's experiencing huge hunger for air because of the panic attack, what she actually needed to do was the opposite of what she would instinctually do.

Nicola: 00:16:35

Which was to breathe more.

Nicola: 00:16:37

Instead, she needed to breathe less.

Nicola: 00:16:39

And so I taught her a technique that would help her to do that, to really slow her breath down and bring it back down to a normal rate.

Josephine Hughes: 00:16:48

Really interesting to hear, because, you know, I know a little bit about breathing.

Josephine Hughes: 00:16:52

Not very much.

Josephine Hughes: 00:16:53

I almost wanted to finish your sentence there, which I'm glad I didn't because I wanted to say.

Josephine Hughes: 00:16:59

So you told her to breathe out rather than breathe in.

Josephine Hughes: 00:17:01

But it's so much more than that, isn't it, from what you're saying, it's.

Josephine Hughes: 00:17:04

It's so much more.

Nicola: 00:17:05

It's more than that.

Nicola: 00:17:06

That is really important.

Nicola: 00:17:08

And so she did need to breathe out and breathe out for longer.

Nicola: 00:17:12

But, yeah, there's quite a bit.

Josephine Hughes: 00:17:15

There's a lot more to it.

Nicola: 00:17:16

Yes.

Nicola: 00:17:17

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:17:18

Well, we'll circle back to that in a moment because I think it's quite important to come back to it.

Josephine Hughes: 00:17:22

But I just wanted to ask as well.

Josephine Hughes: 00:17:24

Oh.

Josephine Hughes: 00:17:24

So before we move on from Amy, what was the result?

Nicola: 00:17:27

So when I saw Amy again a couple of weeks later, she said that she was already feeling more calm, that generally she was feeling less anxious, that she'd started to use it for panic attacks and it was starting to reduce them and nip the panic attacks in the bud.

Josephine Hughes: 00:17:44

Fantastic.

Nicola: 00:17:45

And then when I reviewed Amy recently, which was when she said that she'd be really happy for me to talk about her experience, she said that she's no longer having panic attacks, that the breath helps her to get control if she feels like she's starting to develop any panic symptoms.

Nicola: 00:18:06

And she knows now that if she were to have that kind of panic, she could just stop it by using the breath work techniques.

Nicola: 00:18:14

So she's not having panic attacks anymore.

Nicola: 00:18:18

And also the breath work, combined with counselling and the EFT, she's also rarely experiencing anxiety.

Josephine Hughes: 00:18:26

Fantastic.

Josephine Hughes: 00:18:27

It's sort of like it's a magic potion.

Josephine Hughes: 00:18:32

Give me some magic potion if I can wave it over my clients.

Josephine Hughes: 00:18:35

Well, we'll come back to that in a minute.

Josephine Hughes: 00:18:37

But, yeah, I just wanted to ask about the anger management as well.

Josephine Hughes: 00:18:40

So can you tell me about breath work and anger management?

Josephine Hughes: 00:18:43

Because I hadn't realised that that was another area that you can use it with your clients.

Josephine Hughes: 00:18:48

So can you tell us a bit about that as well?

Nicola: 00:18:50

Yeah, I find it to be incredibly helpful for anger management.

Nicola: 00:18:55

So I was lucky enough to do some work with a good friend and colleague of mine, Florence Terry, who's an anger management specialist, and I supported her to run one of her anger management groups.

Nicola: 00:19:08

And a big part of anger management is learning to recognise what she refers to as the anger thermometer, which is learning to recognise when the anger just starts to build.

Nicola: 00:19:22

So it might, for instance, come on as just a slight feeling of irritation, and then gradually it builds from there to feeling annoyed and then feeling anger.

Nicola: 00:19:31

And that could then progress to rage.

Josephine Hughes: 00:19:33

Yep.

Nicola: 00:19:34

And so.

Josephine Hughes: 00:19:35

Been there, done that.

Nicola: 00:19:37

Yeah, absolutely.

Nicola: 00:19:40

And so a hugely important part of anger management is to learn when that's happening and to intervene more quickly, remove oneself from the situation and do something that's going to calm the nervous system, bring the person out of the sympathetic nervous system, or at least reduce it significantly so that they can then come from a calm place and then address the issue that was causing them to feel angry, which may be a really valid issue to feel angry about, but it will bring them to a place where they're in a state where they're calm enough to deal with it in a healthy way and communicate in a healthy way.

Nicola: 00:20:19

And what I found is that breath work can work really well for that.

Nicola: 00:20:24

So normally, when someone's feeling angry, they're breathing at the top of the chest.

Nicola: 00:20:30

They've got a stress breathing pattern.

Nicola: 00:20:32

They might be taking very big breaths at the top of their chest and they might be taking rapid breaths.

Nicola: 00:20:38

I've also seen people who've been struggling with anger management have a very erratic breathing pattern.

Josephine Hughes: 00:20:43

Really?

Josephine Hughes: 00:20:43

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:20:45

And what I found is that by both, again, addressing the resting breathing pattern, so helping them on a day to day basis to have a more calming breathing pattern and giving them recovery techniques to use in those moments when they notice that they're starting to go into the anger, it can be really transformational for them.

Josephine Hughes: 00:21:10

It's really interesting because I'm sort of like, as we're talking, I'm thinking of clients who I've seen in the past and, you know, we know our clients really do struggle with things like self esteem.

Josephine Hughes: 00:21:21

And anger can be a part of that, can't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:21:24

And thinking that often, again, there might be some sort of trauma in their past and how much they've struggled and how that the anger and that inability to hold the anger in, then again, has that sort of negative feedback into their self esteem, can't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:21:40

And you sort of think, God, how amazing to be able to just break through that for them and to give them a technique and also, as well, just to sort of understand what you're saying about, you know, they might really be habitual sort of people who breathe in that top part of their chest.

Josephine Hughes: 00:21:57

And it's almost like that's never taken into account when perhaps we've been working with them, because if that's not something that we know about, is it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:06

So.

Nicola: 00:22:06

That's right, yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:07

It's really, really interesting to hear about this, I think.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:10

And, you know, it makes you sort of think, like you said, you at the start, you sort of work in quite a somatic way, and it's really interesting to sort of hear, yeah, these.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:19

This is how it can tie together.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:23

So now we need to really ask you, because I think just talking to you now, I've learned quite a lot of.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:29

Because I think, you know, I always used to sort of think, oh, you know, I've done yoga, I know a bit about breathing.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:37

I've done meditation, I know a bit about breathing.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:39

I could say to clients, well, you know, think about this or the other, or breathe like this.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:44

What's the danger of someone like me sort of saying to clients, oh, it's quite easy, just do x, y or z, do you think?

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:53

I mean, you're sort of like, you've got all this professional knowledge.

Josephine Hughes: 00:22:55

Are there, are there other difficulties with somebody like myself sort of saying, well, you know, let's just practice a bit of breathing together?

Nicola: 00:23:03

So it very much varies for the client.

Nicola: 00:23:05

So for some people, for some clients, that might be absolutely fine.

Nicola: 00:23:08

You know, you could take diaphragmatic breathing or the 478 breath, which is also a popular one, and explain it to them.

Nicola: 00:23:16

They go away, practice it all good, you know, reduces their anxiety, they're more calm.

Nicola: 00:23:22

There's also people who that really wouldn't work for.

Nicola: 00:23:26

And I found that what makes a really big difference is to have the understanding underlying the breath work.

Nicola: 00:23:33

So understanding, for instance, the muscles that we use to breathe so that we know which muscles are activated when someone's stressed, when they're anxious, so that we can teach them how to change that.

Nicola: 00:23:46

Understanding things like breathing rate and how that impacts on whether somebody can do a particular breath work technique.

Nicola: 00:23:53

For instance, the four seven, eight breath is a breath where somebody's advised to breathe in for a count of four, hold for seven, and then breathe out for eight.

Nicola: 00:24:05

If they use a count of about one count per second, that's equivalent of breathing at about three breaths per minute.

Josephine Hughes: 00:24:13

Doesn't sound very much.

Nicola: 00:24:15

It's not.

Josephine Hughes: 00:24:16

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:24:18

So some people will be able to manage that fine.

Nicola: 00:24:21

But quite a number of clients who are see, particularly if they've been having panic attacks, their resting breathing rate might be 24, 26.

Nicola: 00:24:30

So to go from 24, 26 down to three.

Nicola: 00:24:34

It's just not realistic for them.

Nicola: 00:24:36

So what will happen then is when they try and do that breathing exercise, they might feel breathless, they might experience chest tightness, feeling of strain.

Nicola: 00:24:45

They'll start to feel more anxious, more tense, and then they'll go, well, this is just making me feel worse.

Nicola: 00:24:51

What am I doing?

Josephine Hughes: 00:24:53

I think it's really interesting to hear what you're saying about the 478 breathing, because I think that's quite often what people are advised to do if they're having a panic attack.

Josephine Hughes: 00:25:01

You know, if they call the ambulance and they're told they're having a panic attack, they quite often leave with that advice.

Josephine Hughes: 00:25:07

I think that's my understanding that they're told to do that sort of 478 breathing.

Josephine Hughes: 00:25:13

But it sounds like that might be almost counterproductive in quite a lot of cases.

Nicola: 00:25:18

I think it's that case of it's very individual to the client.

Josephine Hughes: 00:25:23

Right.

Nicola: 00:25:23

So there'll be some people who.

Nicola: 00:25:25

That's absolutely fine for and works well, but in my experience, there's some clients who that absolutely would not work for.

Nicola: 00:25:33

It just wouldn't be realistic.

Nicola: 00:25:35

And if I think back to when I was working with breathing pattern disorders, there's no way most of my clients would have been able to do that.

Nicola: 00:25:43

So what's needed in that situation is a technique where they can reduce the rate gradually, and they can then reduce it gradually over a few minutes, and also they can work on reducing their resting breathing rate over time, over the next few weeks, few months.

Nicola: 00:26:00

So that gives a lot more flexibility.

Nicola: 00:26:02

So it's that kind of knowledge that can make a big difference when it comes to choosing the right breath work technique for the client, getting maximum benefit, minimizing the risk of adverse effects.

Nicola: 00:26:15

And also there's medical precautions for certain kinds of breath work.

Nicola: 00:26:20

Like, for instance, if somebody is pregnant, it's suggested that they don't retain the breath.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:26

Right.

Nicola: 00:26:26

And so different kinds of breath work are needed.

Nicola: 00:26:29

Or if somebody's got high blood pressure or they've got an aneurysm.

Nicola: 00:26:33

Again, retaining the breath isn't great, and so breath work is overall low risk, but I feel it's important to absolutely minimize that risk.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:42

Absolutely.

Nicola: 00:26:43

And there's a number of precautions to follow in order to do that.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:47

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:48

And that's.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:50

It's a case of often you don't know what you don't know and just sort of listening to you, you're somebody who does know, and it's sort of like, yeah, you've got to be careful in these.

Josephine Hughes: 00:26:58

These circumstances.

Josephine Hughes: 00:27:00

So I think people would really sort of love to hear a bit about what you're doing now to spread this information more widely, because I'm sure there's people listening to this who are thinking, oh, wow, that just sounds really useful, and I'd like to be able to integrate that into my practice.

Josephine Hughes: 00:27:16

So, nicola, can you tell us why you're doing to sort of help people learn more about it?

Nicola: 00:27:20

Yeah, so what I found was that when I was in supervision and talking to colleagues about the breath work and the results that I was seeing with it, they were really interested and a number of them asked me if I would consider doing some training for them.

Nicola: 00:27:38

And so I set up a training course, which is called breathing for calm, and it's a two day training followed by a two hour group supervision a couple of months later.

Nicola: 00:27:50

And what it does is it helps to equip counsellors, psychotherapists so that they can provide breath work that is as effective as possible for their client and also as safe as possible for their client.

Nicola: 00:28:05

So it's about effectiveness, that ability to tailor the, the breath work to that individual and also minimising any risk.

Josephine Hughes: 00:28:14

Yeah, because I was thinking, you know, it's even things that you were saying about, you'll observe the client and you'll observe what their breathing is actually like at the moment, in order, in a sense, to make sure that the breath work exercise is the right one for them and also just to sort of see what's actually going wrong.

Josephine Hughes: 00:28:33

And it sounds like that's a really important thing that we need to know about before we actually say to someone, try this particular technique, you need to almost know what's the reason for the, for these particular set of symptoms, in a way, don't you, from what you're saying.

Josephine Hughes: 00:28:49

And would that be something that people would be able to learn when they work with you?

Nicola: 00:28:53

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Nicola: 00:28:55

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:28:55

So the training consists of four different sections.

Nicola: 00:28:59

The first one is understand.

Nicola: 00:29:01

So that's about having that foundational knowledge to understand the breath, to understand breath work, ultimately to understand how do we change the breath to help somebody to feel more calm.

Nicola: 00:29:13

The second section is assess.

Nicola: 00:29:15

So that's firstly, how do I gather the information?

Nicola: 00:29:18

By asking the right questions from my client, and then how do I identify how my client is breathing?

Nicola: 00:29:25

So teaching basic breathing pattern observation so that they can spot what's happening with the breath.

Nicola: 00:29:31

Spot a normal breathing pattern, spot a stress breathing pattern.

Nicola: 00:29:36

The third stage is choose.

Nicola: 00:29:39

So that's about how to apply that knowledge in order to choose the best technique for your client.

Nicola: 00:29:47

And then the fourth stage is teach.

Nicola: 00:29:49

And initially that involves learning the breath work techniques themselves, so that the participants are able to really experience the breath work, experience its benefits, and then talk about it from a really authentic place, having experienced its benefits, and be able to demonstrate it well because they've been practicing it.

Josephine Hughes: 00:30:11

Demonstration must be an important part of what you do as well.

Nicola: 00:30:14

Yeah, yes, it really is, yeah, very important.

Nicola: 00:30:18

And then basically teaching people how to teach the techniques to clients, how to troubleshoot the kind of challenges that might arise when clients are learning breath work, and then how to progress it over the sessions, also how to integrate it into therapy sessions and practical things like, for instance, note writing, how to record that you've done breath work as part of the session.

Josephine Hughes: 00:30:46

Because while we're just on that sort of little subject about note taking, you and I had a very interesting conversation about insurance, didn't we?

Nicola: 00:30:53

Yes, we did.

Josephine Hughes: 00:30:54

Because I hadn't realised until you told me that you had to specifically get yourself insured to do breath work with your clients.

Josephine Hughes: 00:31:01

Is that the case?

Nicola: 00:31:02

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:31:03

So initially I was insured through my physiotherapy organisation and then separately for my counselor and EFT, through another insurance company.

Josephine Hughes: 00:31:15

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:31:16

But what I was expected to do with those two kinds of insurance was in a session, say, to a client, right, right, now I'm being a physio.

Josephine Hughes: 00:31:28

When they haven't necessarily employed a physio, they'd employ the therapist.

Nicola: 00:31:31

Yeah, that's right, that's right.

Nicola: 00:31:33

And then I would have to say, right, I'm now taking off my physio hat and now I'm becoming accountant.

Nicola: 00:31:38

And it just felt really fragmented.

Nicola: 00:31:41

I didn't like it, really clunky.

Nicola: 00:31:43

And so what I did was I rang around, rang the various insurance companies, and I found Balans, who were absolutely brilliant, and they said they would be really happy to insure me for all of it.

Nicola: 00:31:55

So they would cover me for the physio, for the counselling, for the EFT.

Nicola: 00:32:00

And I also talked to them about the breathing for calm training, and they said that they would also be happy to ensure people who did my training for the breath work that they would then be offering in their practice.

Josephine Hughes: 00:32:13

Yeah, yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:32:14

So it means that you're sort of thoroughly insured and people who work with you can be insured as well for using this in their practice.

Josephine Hughes: 00:32:21

And it's interesting, isn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:32:22

Because I guess the reason I was sort of curious about it is, I think often we don't realise that there is maybe an insurance implication when we do introduce perhaps somatic techniques into our therapy and it's something to think about.

Josephine Hughes: 00:32:37

So that was just a sort of really interesting little sort of occasion of thinking about, oh, actually, there might be more to this than I realize, so, yeah, thanks for that, Nicola.

Josephine Hughes: 00:32:48

It's really, really helpful to know.

Josephine Hughes: 00:32:51

So I'm sure people would be really interested in the course.

Josephine Hughes: 00:32:54

So where can people find out about it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:32:56

It.

Josephine Hughes: 00:32:56

How can we find out more about you, Nicola?

Nicola: 00:33:00

So I've got a website for the breath work training and it's www.breathingforcalm.com.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:08

Right.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:08

That's nice and easy to remember, isn't it?

Nicola: 00:33:10

Yes.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:11

Anybody forgets, I will put it into the.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:14

Into the show notes as well.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:16

So, yeah, and I think you're running a course next year, is that right?

Nicola: 00:33:20

In beginning of January.

Nicola: 00:33:23

The first day of the training is January, the second day is February and then the two hour group supervision is in April.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:29

Brilliant.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:30

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:30

And if you go on Nicolas website as well, you can see she's got some testimonials there about just how helpful the course is.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:38

So do go and take a look if you're interested in integrating this into your practice.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:43

I'm sure many of you will be.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:45

Nicola, I just wanted to move on a little bit because I know there's going to be people listening to podcast who would love to do specialist training for therapists.

Josephine Hughes: 00:33:54

So you mentioned that, you know, part of it was in response to people saying, oh, yeah, I'd love to know more than that.

Josephine Hughes: 00:34:01

Was it difficult to take that step, to actually cross over to that?

Josephine Hughes: 00:34:06

Right now I'm going to be actually running a course.

Josephine Hughes: 00:34:09

What sort of things came up for you in, in actually making the decision?

Nicola: 00:34:14

Yeah, it was challenging.

Nicola: 00:34:16

Yeah, it felt like a really big step.

Nicola: 00:34:19

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:34:20

Terrifying.

Nicola: 00:34:21

Terrifying would be a more accurate word.

Nicola: 00:34:23

Yes.

Nicola: 00:34:24

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:34:24

There were a number.

Nicola: 00:34:25

A number of challenges.

Josephine Hughes: 00:34:26

Yeah, go on.

Nicola: 00:34:27

So, first of all, quite an introvert, really.

Nicola: 00:34:30

So putting myself out there and saying, I am offering this and talking about it, that in itself was big for me.

Josephine Hughes: 00:34:38

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:34:39

And it also.

Nicola: 00:34:41

It was also quite challenging because I'd done lots of training for other physiotherapists when I was working in the NHS.

Nicola: 00:34:50

I'd done, you know, training for other health professionals, but I'd never done breath work training for counsellors or psychotherapists, so I'd never done it for people who didn't have a degree, which included physiology, anatomy.

Josephine Hughes: 00:35:04

Right.

Josephine Hughes: 00:35:05

So it's sort of like it was on a completely different level.

Josephine Hughes: 00:35:07

You have to think about those basics as well.

Nicola: 00:35:10

Yeah, totally.

Nicola: 00:35:11

And so it took a long time to figure out where to pitch the training so that it would provide enough understanding of the breath and of breath work so that people can have that really good foundation but not be too complicated because, you know, two days isn't a long training course.

Nicola: 00:35:33

I wanted it to be really accessible for people, which is why it's the two days.

Josephine Hughes: 00:35:37

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:35:38

And so it was about how to find that middle point and pitch it just right for people who haven't got that experience of anatomy and physiology.

Josephine Hughes: 00:35:46

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:35:47

Did that sort of stop you for a while, you know, did it feel like it was almost too big?

Josephine Hughes: 00:35:54

Yes, it's quite overwhelming, I think, isn't it?

Nicola: 00:35:57

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:35:58

Trying to work out.

Nicola: 00:35:59

Yeah, trying to work it out.

Nicola: 00:36:01

I mean, running the first training was really helpful and getting the feedback from that and seeing just how well people took on board the information that I taught them.

Nicola: 00:36:12

So that was really helpful.

Nicola: 00:36:15

I've used all that feedback and refined.

Josephine Hughes: 00:36:18

The course even more.

Nicola: 00:36:20

But, yeah, it took time to figure that out.

Nicola: 00:36:23

And also doing it alongside a full time practice, I was going to say, as well.

Josephine Hughes: 00:36:28

Yeah, like, you've got loads of time, you know.

Nicola: 00:36:32

It'S been challenging to add it in.

Josephine Hughes: 00:36:35

Yeah, yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:36:37

And I know you actually sort of simplified it a bit as well as a result of first, I did sort of beta session, didn't you?

Josephine Hughes: 00:36:44

Because you, you sort of like, streamlined in terms of how many breath work exercises that you teach people to do, haven't you?

Nicola: 00:36:52

That's right, yes.

Nicola: 00:36:53

So streamlined it, I thought, okay, what are the core techniques that I use for most of my clients?

Nicola: 00:37:00

And when it comes to the other sections of the course, I thought, okay, what's the information that people absolutely need to know?

Nicola: 00:37:09

How can I simplify this as much as possible so it's not overwhelming and people can really take it on board and understand and start to apply it in their practice.

Josephine Hughes: 00:37:20

But I think it's really interesting, actually, just picking up on what you said.

Josephine Hughes: 00:37:22

I mean, one of the things we haven't mentioned is that you do actually have training, qualification in how to train people with breathing.

Josephine Hughes: 00:37:30

And it's sort of like a yoga type training, isn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:37:34

So you've got that.

Josephine Hughes: 00:37:36

And also, like you said, you've already done a lot of training in terms of training other physios as well.

Josephine Hughes: 00:37:42

So another medical professional.

Josephine Hughes: 00:37:45

I think the point I'm trying to make is you bring all of these things to bear now, don't you?

Josephine Hughes: 00:37:50

You've got your knowledge of working with clients and using it yourself, plus all that training, ability and knowledge that you've got from the past.

Josephine Hughes: 00:38:00

And I do actually use you as one of my examples when I'm talking about niching, because I think what you do is you are a fantastic example of the same way that you integrate, breathe work into your practice.

Josephine Hughes: 00:38:13

You've integrated who you are in terms of all your different skills and you bring that to bear into your practice.

Josephine Hughes: 00:38:21

It comes into your marketing, doesn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:38:23

Because you market yourself to people along the lines of sort of anxiety and panic attacks, and that's part of what you do, isn't it?

Nicola: 00:38:33

So I feel so fortunate be able to offer all these different aspects of me.

Nicola: 00:38:41

So to be in a position where I'm free to do that, I'm very, very grateful.

Nicola: 00:38:45

It took quite a number of years and a lot of work to get to this point, but I'm very grateful to now be in a position where I can offer all of it.

Nicola: 00:38:52

And I love teaching, so it's really lovely to be able to offer the breath work training.

Josephine Hughes: 00:38:58

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:38:59

To do something else that's a bit different from the therapy as well, sort of to your portfolio, doesn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:39:05

And I think that can be a really nice part of taking that leap and doing something like this, because it gives you another string to your bow, it gives you something else that interests you and to a certain extent, like you say you're an introvert, pushing yourself out of your comfort zone to go out and publicize it and stuff like that.

Josephine Hughes: 00:39:24

But all these skills that you've picked up along the way and your website skills and everything as well is sort of huge, isn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:39:30

You've learned to do so many different things.

Nicola: 00:39:32

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:39:33

Your blog writing as well, it's just all lots of different things that you've, you've brought in.

Josephine Hughes: 00:39:39

And I just really wanted to wind back a bit as well because we haven't really talked very much about the EFT and you use tapping EFT freedom technique.

Josephine Hughes: 00:39:48

And again, if you go and look at Nicolas website, her, this would be for your actual therapy website, which is a slightly different website, isn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:39:56

What's that website?

Nicola: 00:39:58

It's www dot Nicolapot dot co dot UK.

Josephine Hughes: 00:40:02

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:40:03

And in there you've got quite a lot of testimonials, people saying how much the EFT helped them as well.

Josephine Hughes: 00:40:10

And that's been a really big part of your practice too, hasn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:40:14

And one of the things I noticed is that you seem to be developing a little sort of sub niche of people who.

Josephine Hughes: 00:40:21

Who've experienced baby loss, too.

Nicola: 00:40:23

Yes, that's right.

Josephine Hughes: 00:40:25

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:40:25

Tell us a bit.

Josephine Hughes: 00:40:26

Can you tell us a bit about that and how you use sort of EFT and possibly the breath work with those sorts of clients?

Nicola: 00:40:33

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:40:34

So I find that the somatic approach works really nicely for those clients and it really fits with that niching of trauma and anxiety.

Nicola: 00:40:44

So what I found is that I use the counseling skills in the initial stages of the therapy, and the people who've experienced baby loss, a huge percentage of the people that I've supported with this have also experienced significant trauma as part of that.

Nicola: 00:41:02

So they've got.

Nicola: 00:41:03

They're having PTSD about what they experienced in the moments of the miscarriage, about experiences that they had at the hospital and, you know, those moments where they felt helpless and like people weren't listening to them.

Nicola: 00:41:18

And so I find that using the EFT, and I've also trained in integrated eye movement therapies, so I use either or both of those to help address the trauma.

Nicola: 00:41:31

I find that incredibly powerful.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:33

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:41:34

And that I've had clients who haven't been able to drive past a hospital.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:39

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:41:40

Because they've been so impacted by what they went through, and then with the therapy, they've been able to drive past, they've been able to go back to the hospital again and be okay.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:50

That's amazing.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:51

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:51

What a difference.

Nicola: 00:41:53

It's so transformational for them.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:55

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:56

And even, I mean, even.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:56

Because quite often, you know, people might.

Josephine Hughes: 00:41:58

Well, not quite often, but sometimes people are offered the chance to debrief, aren't they?

Josephine Hughes: 00:42:02

And for some people, you know, if you can't I even face going to hospital, it's just not possible.

Josephine Hughes: 00:42:09

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:42:09

And I know there was one lovely testimonial where someone said that because of what she'd experienced, she was really frightened of getting pregnant again.

Josephine Hughes: 00:42:17

And yet it gave her, instead of feeling frightened, she felt excited about getting pregnant again.

Josephine Hughes: 00:42:22

And you just think, wow, what a transformation that is for somebody.

Josephine Hughes: 00:42:26

And how that.

Josephine Hughes: 00:42:28

I mean, it's going to change that.

Josephine Hughes: 00:42:29

That is life changing, isn't it?

Josephine Hughes: 00:42:30

For somebody to be able to do that, it must give you a huge amount of satisfaction and job satisfaction.

Nicola: 00:42:37

In a sense, it does.

Nicola: 00:42:38

And it feels like such a privilege.

Nicola: 00:42:41

It really does.

Josephine Hughes: 00:42:42

Well, I think people are privileged to be able to work with you.

Josephine Hughes: 00:42:47

And I was so aware of the time, but also, I just did want to touch on this as well, is that you said, because you initially did efthemen, didn't you, before you did your counseling and what you mentioned to me is that you were living up in sort of like the far, the far north, shall we say, for me, down in Essex, but I think we're living in Scotland.

Josephine Hughes: 00:43:09

And yes, you trained in Eft and then you tried to set up a little eft practice in quite a small rural area.

Josephine Hughes: 00:43:16

So would you like to tell us a little bit about, about that and what that taught you and how?

Nicola: 00:43:22

Yeah, it was a good learning experience.

Nicola: 00:43:26

So, yeah, I basically moved to this very small village in Scotland and decided to set up as a practitioner using EFT.

Nicola: 00:43:36

And the clients who I worked with, they really benefited from the EFT.

Nicola: 00:43:43

But what I found was that marketing yourself in a village of 100 people is not the easiest.

Nicola: 00:43:51

And looking back as well, knowing what I've learned since, my marketing was very vague, it wasn't specific enough and I didn't have a way to reach clients, so the only way I was able to reach was by talking to people about what I did and then people then hearing about me.

Nicola: 00:44:10

So it was basically word of mouth.

Nicola: 00:44:13

But when I realised that actually it was very difficult to have a sustainable living from that, I was doing other jobs alongside it at the time, I realised what a huge advantage it was to have a counselling qualification and to be able to be on a directory and reach clients that way and have the credibility of being a counsellor and know that I was absolutely fully qualified and competent to hold those clients.

Nicola: 00:44:41

So it was a really amazing learning experience and when I came to setting up my private practice that I'm now doing, I took it a lot more gently.

Josephine Hughes: 00:44:55

That's really interesting to hear.

Josephine Hughes: 00:44:57

Yeah, I wasn't expecting you to say that then, Nicola, so I think that's lovely.

Josephine Hughes: 00:45:02

Tell us about what you mean by more gently.

Nicola: 00:45:05

So I gave myself a lot more time to do it and I made sure that I was earning a decent living elsewhere.

Nicola: 00:45:14

Whilst I set up initially just a half day a week private practice, I was seeing three clients a week alongside my physio work in the NHS and then I gradually built up from there to a full day and I also got lots of, of support.

Nicola: 00:45:30

So I started my supervision way before I set up my practice.

Nicola: 00:45:35

I also joined the therapy growth group once I'd made the decision that I was going to leave, which in itself, I ended up writing three resignation letters because I was so terrified about taking that jump and leaving a really secure job with a good pension, that it took me a while before I was ready to do that.

Nicola: 00:45:58

So I carried the first two letters around in my bag for months, never handed them in.

Nicola: 00:46:02

And then the third one, I finally plucked up the courage to make that leap.

Nicola: 00:46:07

But I had got the support in place, so I had the therapy growth group to support me.

Nicola: 00:46:14

I booked sessions with you.

Nicola: 00:46:16

I had a really good friend who's a counsellor who supported me and my supervisor who's been amazing.

Josephine Hughes: 00:46:22

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:46:23

So the support made a big difference and just building it gradually.

Josephine Hughes: 00:46:27

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:46:27

And also as well, I think you niched into the anxiety and panic almost from the start, didn't you?

Josephine Hughes: 00:46:34

That was.

Josephine Hughes: 00:46:35

You knew that was what you wanted to sort of where you were going to be aiming for as well.

Nicola: 00:46:40

That's right, yeah.

Nicola: 00:46:41

So I knew that the clients who really hit the sweet spot for what I offer were basically people who've experienced trauma and are experienced experiencing anxiety or panic as a result.

Nicola: 00:46:53

So that's what my marketing was very much aimed at.

Josephine Hughes: 00:46:56

Yeah.

Josephine Hughes: 00:46:57

And I think it's really interesting because a lot of people say, oh, I don't think I could have a niche because I'd get sort of like too constrained by the niche.

Josephine Hughes: 00:47:06

But it's really interesting to sort of hear how you're developing this, working with people who've experienced, like, medical trauma through.

Josephine Hughes: 00:47:13

Through loss and that sort of thing, and that it's not just very narrow, it sounds like a narrow niche when we first talk about it, but actually it pulls in all sorts of different people.

Nicola: 00:47:24

Yeah.

Nicola: 00:47:25

There's this huge variety with it.

Josephine Hughes: 00:47:27

And like you say, you're working with that sweet spot of who you are as well, and seeing.

Nicola: 00:47:32

Yes, seeing that, which is lovely.

Josephine Hughes: 00:47:34

Yeah, it's fantastic.

Josephine Hughes: 00:47:37

Was there anything else you wanted to say?

Nicola: 00:47:39

So I'd really like to express my gratitude to you for the therapy growth group and for all the support that you've offered me through that.

Nicola: 00:47:48

I think it's an amazing thing that you're offering people and I found that when I had the coaching with you and you were very much saying, nicola, this is a really unique skill set that you've got here, you know, please share this knowledge so that other counsellors and psychotherapists can offer this to their clients and they can benefit from it.

Nicola: 00:48:12

It really helped me to take that step and you suggested posting in the therapy growth group and seeing if people were interested, so I did that and asked what people would be interested to learn and that was hugely helpful as part of this.

Nicola: 00:48:29

So I'm really grateful to you.

Nicola: 00:48:30

I'm really grateful for the people in the therapy growth group who've been part of that too.

Josephine Hughes: 00:48:35

It's just lovely to see, to see you developing and just, you know, spreading your wings.

Josephine Hughes: 00:48:41

And just while we're on the subject, you're actually coming to teach in therapy growth group as well, aren't you?

Josephine Hughes: 00:48:46

So you're going to lead us in a breath work workshop in there just after the podcast has come out.

Josephine Hughes: 00:48:53

So we're looking forward to that.

Nicola: 00:48:55

Yeah, me too.

Josephine Hughes: 00:48:56

You'd be good.

Josephine Hughes: 00:48:58

Oh, thanks so much, Nicola, for coming onto the good Enough Counsellors podcast.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:03

I'll pop the details of how people can get hold of you in the show notes, so if people just look in the show notes, they'll be able to find it.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:10

But yeah, it's absolutely fascinating just to hear how we can use breath work and the difference that breathing makes to people and how it really does add something to the work that we do with clients.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:25

And it's just fantastic to hear how, how much it's really helped your clients too.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:31

And it's another way that we can help clients is to introduce something like this into our practices.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:39

So thank you so much for coming.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:41

I really appreciate it.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:42

And I'm sure people are going to be really interested in the episode and how they can use breath work in their practice.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:48

So thank you very much for coming along.

Nicola: 00:49:50

Thank you.

Nicola: 00:49:50

Thank you for having me.

Nicola: 00:49:51

It's been a real privilege.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:53

Thanks for listening.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:55

Do come and join my facebook community.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:58

Good enough counsellors.

Josephine Hughes: 00:49:59

And for more information about how I can help you develop your private practice, please visit my website, josephinehewes.com.

Josephine Hughes: 00:50:08

if you found this episode helpful, I'd love it if you could share it with a fellow therapist or leave a review on your podcast app.

Josephine Hughes: 00:50:16

And in closing, I'd love to remind you that every single step you make gets you closer to your dream.

Josephine Hughes: 00:50:25

I really believe you can do it.