kev:
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On this episode, we're welcoming on Mark Bourne, who is
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the head of the AA Driving School
Academy and operational performance.
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And Mark's come on to talk to us
about how technology can support
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anxious drivers in the future.
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Welcome, mark.
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mark: Hello, hello.
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kev: Hi Mark.
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It's so nice to talk to you 'cause I
know where you are in the industry and
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what sort of people you are talking to.
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So when you said , you're gonna
talk about ai, I'm really interested
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'cause it's something I'm not.
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I haven't got a clue, even though I'm
driver trainer and what new things are
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coming in that we need to know about.
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So I think that's gonna be
really interesting for me and
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how it affects drivers as well,
or potentially might even help.
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mark: Yeah, no, exactly.
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It's, um, I mean the AI movement
it's moving incredibly quickly.
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I mean within driver training and
education and things like that,
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you know, driver education, it,
it can sometimes take a little bit
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longer for things to filter through.
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, And of course there is that fear all
the time of, well, what's actually
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gonna replace a driving instructor?
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Surely not.
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And I mean, I had the same when
we introduced virtuality into,
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into driving instructor training
and all of my trainers, well,
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you're just trying to replace us.
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And it absolutely wasn't.
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It was about.
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Actually making their job easier because
our trainees had more experience and,
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, and knew more when they actually then
got into the car and worked with them.
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And, and I think that's the real
opportunity with technology.
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It's not about replacing people.
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It's about how can you actually
enhance that training environment
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or that working environment with the
technology and the person, because
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ai, I mean, I absolutely love it.
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But it's not always right.
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Yeah.
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And it needs it.
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It doesn't know everything.
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It knows an awful lot and I'm
always really surprised when I'm
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using AI and, and things like that.
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, But it needs that human as well, which is.
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I mean, again, especially, um, if
we're talking about learner drivers
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and, and people that are perhaps
a bit anxious about driving, the
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default of having an AI robot sitting
next to you or something like that
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just must be absolutely terrifying.
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But, um, but that's not how,
how I'd see it would work.
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I think there's other ways
of doing things, so, yeah.
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kev: I've not been called a robot yet.
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Yeah.
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mark: No.
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kev: And I, I actually think that
for an anxious driver, I wouldn't
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mind betting that there's two camps.
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That there are some anxious and
nervous drivers who would quite happily
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say, yep, let me just hand over to.
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A robot or you know, just some, just
somebody else to take responsibility.
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And then I bet there's another
camp who are like, oh no, because
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there's that control element.
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So it's, I think it all depends where your
nerves and anxiety come from, doesn't it?
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As to, how you feel about it.
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So you mentioned the, I I know we've got
two things to talk about, haven't we?
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We've got virtual reality
and then we've got the ai.
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What, what one did you
wanna talk about first?
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Mark?
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mark: I think if we start
about the virtual 'cause I
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think that's, that's where.
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it's been around for a long time.
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Technology has definitely,
again, you know, really sort
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of come on and, and developed.
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And funny enough, it was always
one, we, we introduced it for, for
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instructor training, but it wasn't
necessarily one that I thought, oh
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yeah, I can see a definite link into,
driver training beyond sort of has a
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perception and, and things like that
that, um, that people have gone down.
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You know, I just thought,
well, if you're just doing.
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Educational videos, does it
matter if somebody's in a headset?
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But actually there's been a few
people I've been speaking to
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recently and I'm thinking actually
there is a real opportunity.
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And it does come down to technology
change as well, because I'm thinking
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very much around, well, as everybody
starts to move into electric vehicles
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and we lose the clutch pedal and
the the gear, the gear stick.
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Those cars are still gonna
be around for a long time.
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So how do you actually prepare a,
a group of drivers that perhaps
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learn in an automatic vehicle, but
then need manual tuition as well?
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And so I think that the opportunity for
VR for people that are perhaps nervous
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about driving or want some, you know,
some development or, or those learner
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drivers coming through is actually VR
used within a simulator type environment.
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So rather than actually sitting in a
simulator and having TV screens in front
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of you and you're pretending you're
in the car, but you can actually look
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round and you can see people walking
past you or whatever, you know, if
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you're actually sitting in a simulator
and you put a headset on so that you
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are in a free 60 environment, then
obviously it's much, much more immersive.
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And then you, you've really gotta do,
and, and that's the thing about the VR
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technology now, is you can have this all.
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Augmented reality.
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So actually you could program it so that
when you look down at your gear stick
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that's physically next to you, you do see
your gear stick, but the person that's
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just standing beyond your gear stick,
that's actually watching you drive your
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vehicle, you might not be able to see.
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So, you know, I think that's
the real opportunity with the
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vr and then it's the scenes that
are available in the VR as well.
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You think about how easy it is now to
say, use like Google places or something
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like that, where you can actually
start to see the road environment.
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and so actually being able
to create local roads.
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And things like that.
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So actually you are not just driving
around some random set, you're actually
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driving round or perhaps choosing the
journey that you, you know, you know
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that you're gonna be doing in the future.
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and so I think that's the real opportunity
and, and I sort of picture it thinking,
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well, motorway driving, you know, lots
and lots of people are a bit anxious
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about getting onto the motorways.
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Um, and of course.
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Can you imagine?
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You know you're going, right, we're
gonna head onto this motorway.
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We don't really know
how busy it's gonna be.
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We don't know how congested
that that junction is.
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We might get, you know, it might
be a smart motorway, so we might
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have some foot lane closures
and speed limits in you game.
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It'll all be okay though.
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But imagine that to, you could
put that in a virtual environment
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and you can, okay, right.
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We're gonna enter this motorway
in this virtual environ.
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And this is what it's gonna be.
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This is gonna be your level of
traffic, this is gonna be the
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speed limit that's gonna be there.
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And you get to rehearse and practice that.
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And that's the real opportunity, I think,
to sort of think about, yeah, how can
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somebody be from, you know, that is
a little bit anxious or, or even not
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even anxious, just wants to build up
their training in a step by step way.
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the technology's coming on so much.
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So I think there is that opportunity
to how to do that and, and to think,
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right, actually I can experience
the real world environment in a
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really safe virtual environment.
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Get that practice and then feel ready
to take that next step of going, right?
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I now wanna sit next to
a driving instructor.
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And go out and experience
exactly the same junction.
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Of course, all the cars and things
like that will be different and the,
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you know, the, the factors around
you, but it's just, it's that familiar
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bit of being able to go, right,
okay, I've driven this 10 times.
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Yeah.
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I'm just now doing it a
little bit more for real.
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So, um, so that's, that's the, I
mean, when I think about when we first
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introduced VR training for our instructor
training and where we can go now.
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It is pretty amazing and, and I think a
lot of the people I've been talking to
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as well is that, is that that willingness
to sort of invest in this because.
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There needs to be something that actually
helps people learn, as I say, like a
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manual transmission when all the driving
instructor population potentially are
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over into automatic vehicles or electric
vehicles as, as we come, come through
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sort of the next five to 10 years.
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, So it's a, yeah, it's a good time
to jump on the technology and go,
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actually, how else could it be used?
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kev: VR just just ames
me how it does what?
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It's amazing.
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So is.
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mark: Yeah, so the, the challenge with
VR is one, you have got a headset on,
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and of course then, you know, you gotta
think, well, how, how do you get to.
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Put a headset on, you know, is it
something that you buy the headset and
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then it's, it's a program that's there.
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But if I'm talking about using it with
a simulator where you kind of think,
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well, you've gotta go to a location
for that and that sort of thing.
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Then once you've actually
got your headset on.
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Not everybody, , can sort of travel
through a road environment whilst
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they're actually not moving physically,
and, and so you might get that sort
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of VR and motion sickness and I
mean, it's been a few years now, but
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I, I learned a lot about this as we
were sort of setting up our program
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about how to best minimize that.
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But still, it's a very, you know,
it's sort a very real thing there,
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of, of, the brain thinking one
thing, but the body actually is
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not quite doing the same thing.
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And then with VR as well.
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And again, this is, the technology has
come on and changed, but you, you don't
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have, as much, , peripheral vision
as what you, you would have out there
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in a vehicle and things like that.
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So, you know, you, you have it to
turn a lot more and things like that.
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You, we can spin that to be in a real
positive 'cause obviously we know,
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you know, especially where if you're a
little bit anxious, you, you don't wanna
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move your head, you don't wanna move
your eyes from the front of the road.
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But actually moving your head
and moving your eyes is a, is a
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good thing for hazard perception.
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So, um, so yeah, there's some
advantages perhaps to going, yeah,
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it, it's, you, you, you've not got as
much peripheral awareness in there.
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kev: I think the things that I was
thinking when you were talking is.
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We often talk about the imagination.
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So we often talk about using imagery as
a way of helping people who are anxious.
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So very often somebody who's anxious
is using imagery in a negative way.
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They're imagining all the scenarios, all
the things that could go wrong, and they
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can, you know, they can really embed
themselves in that if they're, if they're.
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If they're really successful at imagery,
they can use it in the wrong way.
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So we turn that round and we talk
about people imagining their journeys.
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We talk about, sort of imagine you
are doing this particular, junction
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or this particular roundabout
and, and do it in your head,
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rehearse it in your head, mentally
rehearse it, mentally practice it.
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And actually what, VR is doing is
taking that one step further is making.
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It more real, it's making it
that potentially more accessible.
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'cause not everybody can use
imagery in a controlled way.
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Not everybody likes doing it.
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, Not everybody can do it.
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So that VR makes it really accessible.
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And of course, like you said, your brain
says, I've done this 10 times already.
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And well, it depends who
you talk to, doesn't it?
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So some people will say, your brain
reacts and responds in exactly the
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same way to imagined or virtual reality
experiences as it does to the real thing.
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Very often, it's not exactly the same
way, because logically you know that you
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are imagining it or it's vr, but your
body will often respond in exactly the
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same way to what your brain is seeing.
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So it really does give you that.
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It can give you that experience that
just gives you that bit more confidence
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that actually I know what I'm doing
here because I have practiced it.
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And I love that controllable element that
you were saying about with the motorway.
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So it's like, okay, we're gonna do that
motorway driving, or we're gonna do that
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roundabout, but we're gonna start off with
it being quiet, and then we can build it
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up and make it a bit more complicated.
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So it's that bite size.
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Hmm.
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Yeah.
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Is, has you, have you tried this, I know
you do the instructor training through vr.
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Have you put sort of like,
I'm gonna say the general
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public, that sounds really bad.
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I, I can't think of the moment,
another word , but have you put that,
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those people in it to drive that
may feel a bit anxious or nervous?
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mark: So, no, I mean the only VR that
we currently have access to within
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the driving school is our instructor
training, vr, and um, and it's
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only really through exploring out.
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, I've had conversations with people over
in the US and Canada, you know, across
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Europe and then, you know, previous
colleagues and things like that.
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And it's only through conversations with
them that I've gone, oh, actually, okay.
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There are now other applications and
opportunities and things like that.
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And, and I think that's the
bit where I think, well, if.
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Over the next year, two years, this is
where I really want to sort of, you know,
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be able to, to go, right, okay, that's
our next, next opportunity and project.
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, But it is fascinating what people
are already developing and, and
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I, I think back to when we first.
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Launched vr.
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, And it comes a little into what you
were just saying about visualization.
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I was having conversations that I
didn't understand, but I was having
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conversations with people and they
were trained in autonomous vehicles.
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And they were like, well, actually
what we've realized is we don't need
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autonomous vehicles to spend hundreds
and hundreds hours out on the road
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because then an autonomous vehicle
doesn't know whether that's a real road
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environment or a virtual road environment.
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And so they were talking to me about,
well, how can you create virtual road
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environments for autonomous vehicles?
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And so I think that's the
thing is, yeah, you know.
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Coming into the world of AI a
bit there , and things like that.
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But I think that's the bit is you can
go, well, actually yeah, sometimes you,
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you're not tricking the brain and you're
not tricking the, you know, the autonomous
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vehicles, but you are just adding another
level in into there that, that helps.
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And I think what you just said as
well, Tracy, in terms of, of sometimes
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you just need a little bit of extra
confidence and things like that, you
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know, we are, we're not, and this is
my, I think comes back to right what
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I was saying at the beginning is.
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It's looking about how techno
technology could help not replace,
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and that's the bit is going right.
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Well, it doesn't matter.
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You know, we could have a fan.
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I mean, even just having a motorway
junction and being able to sort
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of change the environment in their
motorway junction in a VR sounds really
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impressive, but you can't do everything.
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and so it's just recognizing
that actually technology is
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great, but it has limitations.
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And that's where then that real world
driving experience really does take over.
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kev: Yeah, I think
that's really important.
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Really important.
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And what also popped up in my head
then, and I don't know why, and I think
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it might be 'cause I've heard you talk
about the subject in the past some
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years ago, could there be a danger that
it could make somebody overconfident?
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mark: So I think this is the other
interesting bit, which actually brings
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nicely into the AI opportunities as well
in terms of obviously overconfidence,
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especially young drivers and, and, and
things like that can be a real problem.
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And then so getting that
calibration correct.
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And so if I can just jump straight
into an AI opportunity, so,
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. An AI opportunity , in driver
training , is, it could be a a dash
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cam, so, or style, , opportunity.
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And quite often, again, when we
think about dash cams, we think
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around, it's reading the road ahead.
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It might be able to tell if you're
following too closely, speed limit
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violations and those sorts of things.
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00:15:11
But actually I think, well, you could
flip that and, and actually get.
278
:
00:15:15
The AI intelligence to actually look
like, uh, what's happening in the car as
279
:
00:15:19
well as what's outside the car as well.
280
:
00:15:21
So, for example, , if there is
a speed violation, , has the
281
:
00:15:25
instructor actually addressed that?
282
:
00:15:27
How did they address that and, and
did they address that in the right
283
:
00:15:30
sort of way that it wouldn't sort
of produce overconfidence under
284
:
00:15:33
confidence and things like that?
285
:
00:15:34
Because as a driving instructor, do we get
it right a hundred percent of the time?
286
:
00:15:38
Probably not.
287
:
00:15:39
And also we, we, you know,
marry up with, with other things
288
:
00:15:42
and, and, and things like that.
289
:
00:15:43
So actually having a bit of a, an AI bit
that sort of, you know, give some coaching
290
:
00:15:47
support, some help there or identify as
it could help sort of calibrate that.
291
:
00:15:52
It's also as well, I remember.
292
:
00:15:55
Observing driving instructors.
293
:
00:15:56
This was in the Netherlands, and so
they could go onto the motorways and
294
:
00:15:59
things like that much before we could,
and I remember a young lad, um, being
295
:
00:16:04
taken out by his driving instructor
and he wasn't particularly good.
296
:
00:16:08
Some of the skills that he
needed for the basic roads.
297
:
00:16:11
But anyway, his instructor took him out
and they did a junction , on the motorway.
298
:
00:16:14
And I mean, uh, coming off the
instructor helped and intervened
299
:
00:16:17
with the dual controls to help him
slow down and, and prepare for the,
300
:
00:16:20
for the exit, the, you know, of, of
coming up to the first junction as
301
:
00:16:24
they exited and things like that.
302
:
00:16:25
And I did think, whoa, has that
person just been sort of confident,
303
:
00:16:30
skyrocketed because they can go home
and go, I went on the motorway today.
304
:
00:16:34
, And actually I think.
305
:
00:16:35
Their driving skills, you
know, need, needs more work.
306
:
00:16:38
But if you're using a dash cam, perhaps
with some AI sort of built into it,
307
:
00:16:43
that could actually then start to
help a driving instructor understand.
308
:
00:16:47
Right.
309
:
00:16:48
They've got this experience, they've had
enough experience here, you know, with in
310
:
00:16:51
this raw roads town driving, they've had
experience with some cyclists and things
311
:
00:16:56
like that and start to really collect
all of that information that can then
312
:
00:17:01
help the driving instructor think, right,
they've had all those bits of experience.
313
:
00:17:04
We are definitely ready for that next
lesson of heading out onto the dual
314
:
00:17:07
carriage, raise the high speeds roads
and the motorways and things like that.
315
:
00:17:10
And so that's where I again, sort of
see AI being able to come in is, is to
316
:
00:17:14
almost sort of produce that driver record.
317
:
00:17:17
Of they've had enough experience and
if you think about young drivers as
318
:
00:17:20
well, you know, often it all comes back
down to had they had enough experience.
319
:
00:17:25
And so if you can get the AI to
actually go right, this is what's
320
:
00:17:29
happening then, and things like
that, then, then absolutely.
321
:
00:17:32
Gone a little bit round the sort
of houses on that bit, but there's,
322
:
00:17:35
there's so many opportunities I think
with the ai, in terms of, yeah, just
323
:
00:17:39
supporting the driving instructor and
in supporting the driver . And if we
324
:
00:17:42
think, you know, for our, you know,
people that might be a little bit
325
:
00:17:46
anxious, information's helpful, isn't it?
326
:
00:17:49
, You can sort of think and I, I think
about, yeah, when I, I think about
327
:
00:17:52
my daughter, it's like, oh no, I
haven't done this, this, and this.
328
:
00:17:54
And, and often I go, well, no, you
kind of did that there and there
329
:
00:17:56
and there, so you, you know, you
should be, you should be fine.
330
:
00:17:59
You just can't think about it.
331
:
00:18:00
And so actually being able to relay back
and then so, well, I've never done that.
332
:
00:18:04
And you can sort of go, well actually,
look, this is what your, your driver's
333
:
00:18:08
record's showing you is you have, I
dunno, driven at 40 miles an hour before.
334
:
00:18:13
Gonna be absolutely fine
on this draw territory.
335
:
00:18:15
Yeah.
336
:
00:18:16
You know, there, there's, there's
those sorts of opportunities I think.
337
:
00:18:18
kev: Yeah.
338
:
00:18:20
That, that links in in
a few ways, doesn't it?
339
:
00:18:22
'cause we were talking about memory
earlier and the fact that your
340
:
00:18:25
memory tricks you all the time.
341
:
00:18:29
, And it's, it's your, your
memory isn't true, very often.
342
:
00:18:33
So you do easily forget those things
and that data, and that's also
343
:
00:18:37
reminding me of a conversation.
344
:
00:18:39
We are very sad on our walks when
we were talking about talking about
345
:
00:18:44
the blend of, um, black box data.
346
:
00:18:47
And how useful that data is.
347
:
00:18:49
So, so would you be linking up
the AI camera in the car alongside
348
:
00:18:56
the data that potentially the
black box is picking up and then
349
:
00:19:00
collating those two things together?
350
:
00:19:02
Because, oh my God, that would
be so powerful, wouldn't it?
351
:
00:19:05
mark: Yeah.
352
:
00:19:06
Well, it's funny that there's a
company I've been talking to in the
353
:
00:19:08
US and that's exactly what they are
doing is, is connecting dash cam data
354
:
00:19:13
with, with the cars car data as well.
355
:
00:19:15
And, , because you know, I mean, I
know now and, and as I'm sure you do.
356
:
00:19:20
In modern vehicles, you have,
um, the sign recognition that
357
:
00:19:23
tells you the speed limit.
358
:
00:19:24
It's not always right.
359
:
00:19:26
You know, it sometimes misses
a sign and things like that.
360
:
00:19:28
So it's, it's really helpful to
have lots of different sources of
361
:
00:19:31
data to bring together and then
you get that, that truer picture.
362
:
00:19:35
and absolutely, I mean, a lot of the
cameras have sort of, , the, the sensors
363
:
00:19:40
in, don't they, for half breaking
and, and, and, and things like that.
364
:
00:19:42
But possibly not as reliable as what's.
365
:
00:19:46
Built into the vehicles.
366
:
00:19:48
And so if you can combine those
sources of data, I think you've got
367
:
00:19:51
a a yeah, a really powerful solution.
368
:
00:19:53
And, um, and that, you
know, we do it all the time.
369
:
00:19:56
You know, if we think about our, our
navigation systems and, and all the
370
:
00:19:59
different systems that we've got,
it's just trying to harness that
371
:
00:20:01
in the right way, really, and being
able to, to have, um, yeah, that,
372
:
00:20:05
that user experience benefit from it.
373
:
00:20:07
kev: See, I I, I think ai.
374
:
00:20:10
Virtual reality.
375
:
00:20:11
I think it's the future, but
it's also with us at the moment.
376
:
00:20:15
We just don't know how
to use the best of it.
377
:
00:20:17
We haven't quite worked that out
yet, but what, you know, people
378
:
00:20:21
like us,, we talk to people all the
time and we can see the benefits.
379
:
00:20:26
How do we get this across to
the general public that, uh.
380
:
00:20:30
Probably more dubious of it, that they
can't see the benefits, I suppose.
381
:
00:20:36
You know, people that listen to this
podcast will go, so what are you trying?
382
:
00:20:40
Are you gonna be watching me all the time?
383
:
00:20:42
' cause that's, that's, we're not, we
are out training with these people.
384
:
00:20:44
That's what they think.
385
:
00:20:45
They think it's like watching them,
which then gives them that anxiety.
386
:
00:20:50
Oh yeah.
387
:
00:20:50
The thing of worry about being
judged and the social concerns
388
:
00:20:54
of what other people think.
389
:
00:20:55
Okay.
390
:
00:20:56
Yeah.
391
:
00:20:56
So how, how does that sound with
potentially what you found out already?
392
:
00:21:01
mark: I think this, the important bit is,
is how information then is, is brought
393
:
00:21:06
back to, to the benefit of the user.
394
:
00:21:09
, And so it really is thinking
very clearly about what, what
395
:
00:21:11
is being displayed to them.
396
:
00:21:13
If you've got information, say on
speed, on following distance and
397
:
00:21:16
things like that, it doesn't just, it
can't just give you that information.
398
:
00:21:20
It needs to tell you something
about that information and, and,
399
:
00:21:22
and sort of give you some, some
guidance, um, for, for going forward.
400
:
00:21:26
So I think that's a really
important part of it.
401
:
00:21:29
The other bit though, is.
402
:
00:21:31
Being able to switch it off and,
, especially, I mean, if in a driving
403
:
00:21:34
lesson, if you're driving instructors
using a dash cam and, and things like that
404
:
00:21:37
and actually able to support you at the
moment, you know, you should have that
405
:
00:21:40
opportunity to say, can we just switch
that off now and just let me focus 'cause
406
:
00:21:44
it's making me feel funny or, or whatever.
407
:
00:21:46
And, and I think, you know,
we, we have to recognize.
408
:
00:21:49
Um, yeah, whilst there's so
much opportunity in technology,
409
:
00:21:53
sometimes it's nice just to switch
off and, and not worry about it.
410
:
00:21:56
So, um, yeah, can't do that with
all the car data that's there now.
411
:
00:22:00
I mean, there's so much data isn't there,
but, um, but yeah, I think the other
412
:
00:22:05
bit as well is AI can sound quite scary.
413
:
00:22:09
But it's amazing how much it's already
there and, and so if people are sort
414
:
00:22:13
of using things like open AI and
chat GPT and things like that, you
415
:
00:22:17
know, it's those sorts of things
that actually they, people can.
416
:
00:22:20
Find benefit from.
417
:
00:22:22
and it could just be asking and saying,
I, you know, I've got this journey.
418
:
00:22:25
And, , any tips, any hints.
419
:
00:22:26
Again, it can give you information.
420
:
00:22:29
You've gotta sort of do the
responsible thing of thinking, right?
421
:
00:22:32
Is that all accurate?
422
:
00:22:33
And, and, you know, how am I gonna sort of
take that on and use it, um, in my head,
423
:
00:22:38
that's not very much dissimilar to social
media these days, you know, in terms of, I
424
:
00:22:42
can ask a question on social media and get
loads of responses, but really, you know.
425
:
00:22:46
I dunno, there's an advert, I think
at the moment you, you know, do
426
:
00:22:49
you wanna use a lemon or deodorant?
427
:
00:22:50
, You've gotta still, you know,
take that responsibility of,
428
:
00:22:53
of that, that information.
429
:
00:22:55
, But yeah, I, I suppose come back to
that original bit of technology's
430
:
00:22:59
there, it's just about how we harness
it and then harness it to help, as
431
:
00:23:04
opposed to sort of replace or, or
to, to watch people too carefully.
432
:
00:23:07
So, yeah.
433
:
00:23:08
kev: Yeah, there's all sorts
of things you could do.
434
:
00:23:10
You could say, I'm doing this
journey so what would be good
435
:
00:23:14
rest stops for me on this journey.
436
:
00:23:16
Where are the.
437
:
00:23:17
but then you need to take the
responsibility to make sure
438
:
00:23:20
that those service stations
or whatever are still there.
439
:
00:23:24
So.
440
:
00:23:25
mark: Yeah.
441
:
00:23:26
kev: Before actually going
and doing the journey, rather
442
:
00:23:28
than relying on it completely.
443
:
00:23:30
Otherwise, I can see a whole new, we
did a podcast episode about a year
444
:
00:23:34
ago with people sat nav stories where
people were telling their stories
445
:
00:23:39
of all sorts of weird and wonderful
things that happened to them because
446
:
00:23:43
they followed the sat nav regardless.
447
:
00:23:46
So I, I could see an AI
version of that as well.
448
:
00:23:49
But, but yeah, it is just about
all about bringing it all together.
449
:
00:23:53
Using it, isn't it?
450
:
00:23:54
It's remembering to fact check
the information that you get.
451
:
00:24:00
mark: Yeah, I think the satin as well is,
I mean, you know, we can link that into
452
:
00:24:04
sort of autonomous driving and, and, and
what's happening in cars at the moment.
453
:
00:24:09
As you say, everyone's gone
through that experience of
454
:
00:24:11
trusting their satin n too much.
455
:
00:24:13
But even then, you know, you know,
really you have your satin nav
456
:
00:24:17
on, but you've gotta use your eyes
457
:
00:24:18
it's the same if you've got any sort of
semi-autonomous driving on your vehicle.
458
:
00:24:23
Now, you know whether that's your.
459
:
00:24:26
Adaptive cruise control and
your lane keeping assist.
460
:
00:24:28
You know, you can't just put that on
and go, right, it's all gonna be okay.
461
:
00:24:32
Car's gonna take full responsibility
for everything that goes on.
462
:
00:24:34
You've got to sort of, you know,
learn, learn about it , and,
463
:
00:24:38
you know, understand it and, and
still hold that responsibility.
464
:
00:24:42
And I think then that sort of
almost answers that question of.
465
:
00:24:47
Some people getting more anxious
because a car is doing things.
466
:
00:24:51
Other people being able to go,
well, actually that's all okay.
467
:
00:24:54
I think everybody needs to understand
these systems because then if you are more
468
:
00:24:59
anxious about it, at least you've got an
understanding of it and you know, perhaps
469
:
00:25:03
when it's not gonna operate as well as it
perhaps should and, and things like that.
470
:
00:25:07
Or if you are completely okay
with it, well you've got some
471
:
00:25:10
understanding there to do, to go.
472
:
00:25:12
Don't trust it a hundred percent.
473
:
00:25:13
You still need to be active
in, in that driver seat.
474
:
00:25:16
, So I think, yeah, knowledge
is definitely quite key here.
475
:
00:25:19
And again, these are complicated
systems, you know, and, and
476
:
00:25:23
getting more and more complicated.
477
:
00:25:25
And so it's all about, well,
how does that information get.
478
:
00:25:29
Trade, you know, in a really
useful and meaningful way
479
:
00:25:31
that doesn't overwhelm people.
480
:
00:25:33
Um, 'cause unfortunately, yeah, it's
not, you know, it's quite often you buy
481
:
00:25:37
a vehicle and then all of a sudden you
are, you are out there having to work out
482
:
00:25:40
and play with it and things like that.,
483
:
00:25:42
As opposed to having that
trusted source next to you.
484
:
00:25:44
But again, that might be where.
485
:
00:25:46
AI assistant comes in that you
can ask the car, well, how do you
486
:
00:25:50
actually operate and do this sort of
thing and, and make these decisions.
487
:
00:25:53
So who knows, who knows
what the future is.
488
:
00:25:55
But um,
489
:
00:25:57
kev: I
490
:
00:25:57
mark: a very interesting period.
491
:
00:25:59
Yeah.
492
:
00:25:59
kev: Oh, I was just about to say that.
493
:
00:26:02
'cause it's, there is so many
possibilities, isn't there, you know,
494
:
00:26:05
for cars, but then it's, I know I'm
coming off topic like I normally do
495
:
00:26:10
in this, but , the structure, the
infrastructure of our roads needs
496
:
00:26:14
to be there as well, doesn't it?
497
:
00:26:16
And I think sometimes that has a, a
detrimental effect on what we're trying
498
:
00:26:21
to do to help people when the, the
infrastructure's not there as well.
499
:
00:26:26
mark: Yeah, no, absolutely.
500
:
00:26:27
And um, I mean, yeah, again, I mean if
we talk about just electric vehicles
501
:
00:26:31
at the moment, that's one of the big
things that people worry about in terms
502
:
00:26:34
of infrastructure and, and you know,
not being able to charge and range
503
:
00:26:38
anxiety and all of this sort of thing.
504
:
00:26:40
, And actually, I mean, just now.
505
:
00:26:42
Just to bring in the experience of the
other part of the business in, in terms
506
:
00:26:45
of our breakdown, very few breakdowns are
because people have run out of charge.
507
:
00:26:50
Most electric car breakdowns still are
around tires and still are around the,
508
:
00:26:54
the 12 volt battery that that operates
everything else rather than the actual
509
:
00:26:58
big batteries that's power in the car.
510
:
00:27:00
But it is about planning.
511
:
00:27:02
Again,, and really sort of thinking about
those journeys and , so yeah, , it's,
512
:
00:27:06
um, infrastructure and things like that.
513
:
00:27:08
Yeah.
514
:
00:27:08
I, I think it's just work,
working that through.
515
:
00:27:12
I'm thinking, right, okay,
well this is what I'm doing.
516
:
00:27:14
This is where I'm going and,
and, and things like that.
517
:
00:27:16
Interestingly, I was thinking
the other week as well, well,
518
:
00:27:18
if you've got autonomous cars.
519
:
00:27:20
Do you need pavements and curbs
and do you need road signs and
520
:
00:27:23
do you need white lines all down
the road and things like that.
521
:
00:27:26
'cause an autonomous car will probably
behave a lot better than some of
522
:
00:27:29
our other drivers out there, um, and
won't break the speed limits and won't
523
:
00:27:33
do this and, and things like that.
524
:
00:27:34
And I was thinking, well, do
they actually need lanes to help
525
:
00:27:36
them position if they're not
actually using the white lines?
526
:
00:27:39
And so, um, it would be, yeah,
I mean, we're talking about.
527
:
00:27:43
Way, way, way in the future,
but you just gonna go, hold on.
528
:
00:27:46
Does this just change everything in
actually how we perceive, you know,
529
:
00:27:50
movement on, on the road and the, the
road infrastructure, but, um, but yeah, so
530
:
00:27:56
we're getting well away from, from giving
confidence to anxious drivers, but, um.
531
:
00:28:00
kev: Yeah.
532
:
00:28:00
No, we, we love it though.
533
:
00:28:02
We love it and, and actually 'cause
a lot of the autonomous vehicles do.
534
:
00:28:06
The lines , they're the thing that, that's
really important at the moment, aren't
535
:
00:28:10
they?
536
:
00:28:10
That's the bit, that's the bit of
the infrastructure that's not there,
537
:
00:28:14
, that's maybe holding things back.
538
:
00:28:16
But yes, you're quite right in the future.
539
:
00:28:18
Satellite, see GPS what you had
to tell and the more autonomous
540
:
00:28:22
vehicles that there are.
541
:
00:28:24
Oh, scary or exciting?
542
:
00:28:26
mark: Yeah, I was gonna
say scary or exciting.
543
:
00:28:28
Yeah, yeah.
544
:
00:28:29
Depends which way you look at it, but uh,
545
:
00:28:30
kev: Yeah.
546
:
00:28:31
The kids will have me in a
home before that all comes in.
547
:
00:28:34
Yeah, be fine.
548
:
00:28:35
It'd be fine.
549
:
00:28:36
so when we, we did an
episode with Adam, Dr.
550
:
00:28:40
Adam Asal, who had brought out
his recent piece of research.
551
:
00:28:44
And right at the beginning of that,
before he started his four year piece of
552
:
00:28:48
research, his whole aim was to research
the use of VR with anxious drivers.
553
:
00:28:55
Um, but actually.
554
:
00:28:57
He had to sort of like take several steps
backwards because he needed to fill in
555
:
00:29:02
the, the lack of research around anxious
drivers before he could move forward.
556
:
00:29:07
So he, he never actually got
to that part of, you know, for
557
:
00:29:11
him he feels that, yeah, VR.
558
:
00:29:14
Could be a really good way forward.
559
:
00:29:16
so it'd be interesting to see if we
ever get to a point where we do get
560
:
00:29:20
to do some research on it and, you
know, that can be looked at 'cause it
561
:
00:29:23
feels as if it's got real potential.
562
:
00:29:27
And definitely that link up, I think of
the, the ai, the in-car camera, the, you
563
:
00:29:34
know, the data from the car along with.
564
:
00:29:37
An instructor and somebody who can
actually interpret that in a way
565
:
00:29:41
to produce, like you say, a record,
a learning record or a driving log
566
:
00:29:48
that somebody can look back and
go, actually, I've done this and
567
:
00:29:50
look at all these great things.
568
:
00:29:52
Suddenly when you look at , does
somebody feel negatively about their
569
:
00:29:56
driving or do they feel positively
if you've got a report where
570
:
00:30:00
actually you've got a whole load of.
571
:
00:30:01
Green, something green ticks or something
to say, look at how great all of this was.
572
:
00:30:08
And you know, and this is an area
for a bit more improvement, but
573
:
00:30:11
, overall, , look at all this good stuff.
574
:
00:30:14
It'd be great.
575
:
00:30:15
mark: Well, that's it.
576
:
00:30:15
And it's still, and, and that's what I,
I think what I like about the opportunity
577
:
00:30:19
is it still needs that human element.
578
:
00:30:22
To be able to put that across
in a, you know, in a human
579
:
00:30:25
way and, and things like that.
580
:
00:30:27
And, , because again, it is
very easy to go, oh, that's
581
:
00:30:29
just what the computer says.
582
:
00:30:30
That's not really my drive in, you know?
583
:
00:30:32
And so you do need that
reassurance, don't you?
584
:
00:30:34
, And better put it across.
585
:
00:30:35
And, I don't think vr, I don't think
AI and all of these sort of connected
586
:
00:30:39
systems are the, the end of driving
instructors, you know, there still
587
:
00:30:42
needs to be a driving instructor.
588
:
00:30:43
And even as we go down and.
589
:
00:30:46
Vehicles become more and more autonomous.
590
:
00:30:48
You know, there's, there's gonna be more
and more reasons that you're gonna need a
591
:
00:30:51
driving instructor to really sort of help
through that bit of, of, you know, we're
592
:
00:30:55
not even if, yeah, we have cars now that,
that do drive out on the public roads and,
593
:
00:30:59
and don't really need human intervention.
594
:
00:31:02
There are a really number of those cars,
you know, and so we've got a really long
595
:
00:31:05
time before the whole car park is switched
over to autonomous cars and you know, you
596
:
00:31:11
need a driving instructor that's able to
interpret that and go, Hey, look at that
597
:
00:31:14
car that's not got any autonomy on it.
598
:
00:31:16
That's somebody that's kept that alive.
599
:
00:31:18
'cause they wanted to keep a manual, you
know, manual transmission and, and they've
600
:
00:31:21
got that car running till 20 years later.
601
:
00:31:23
So I think.
602
:
00:31:24
Well touch wood, you know,
we're all good until retirement.
603
:
00:31:27
Um, and that's, that's, that's my aim.
604
:
00:31:29
So, um.
605
:
00:31:31
kev: I've only got four years.
606
:
00:31:36
Mark, is there anything that we
haven't managed to talk about yet?
607
:
00:31:40
Is there anything that you thought,
oh, I really wanna talk about that?
608
:
00:31:43
Or is there anything that we haven't
asked you and you wish we had asked you?
609
:
00:31:48
mark: No, I don't think so.
610
:
00:31:49
I think it is, as I say, you know, in
terms of, especially if we are looking
611
:
00:31:52
for, you know, to give people confidence,
in learning to drive or getting back into
612
:
00:31:57
that driving seat, it is around, as I
say, it's about the information there.
613
:
00:32:01
But you know, as this technology
does come in and as it grows, you
614
:
00:32:04
know, it's, it's sort of, it is
to go, well, let's give it a go.
615
:
00:32:07
Let's, let's see what, see what that is.
616
:
00:32:09
And, and so I think that's, yeah, it,
it try and keep, give people confidence.
617
:
00:32:14
kev: Nice.
618
:
00:32:14
Lovely.
619
:
00:32:15
Mark, thank you so much
for your time today.
620
:
00:32:17
It's been great.
621
:
00:32:18
It's, it's fascinating having
that glimpse into the future.
622
:
00:32:22
It's, it's a fascinating subject that
there's, we don't know the answers,
623
:
00:32:26
which is even fantastic 'cause
you just go, what could this do?
624
:
00:32:30
What could it be interesting to
see the next five years I feel.
625
:
00:32:34
mark: Yeah, no, absolutely.
626
:
00:32:35
And I think, you know, it's, um, I mean,
there's always that commercial aspect
627
:
00:32:39
that comes into things and things like
that, but as I say, I think there is that
628
:
00:32:42
opportunity, you know, to go, actually,
there's a real need for, for technology to
629
:
00:32:47
really come into, to supporting as, as we
go through this transition from, you know.
630
:
00:32:53
Ice vehicles, so combustion
engine vehicles through to,
631
:
00:32:55
through to electric vehicles.
632
:
00:32:57
, And what's really interesting, as
I say, is, is the conversations
633
:
00:32:59
I've been having with people about
how, where they are on that journey
634
:
00:33:02
and what they're sort of seeing.
635
:
00:33:03
And so yeah, let, let's, um,
really hopefully shape, shape the
636
:
00:33:08
technology that's coming through
to, to have a real benefit.
637
:
00:33:11
kev: Brilliant.
638
:
00:33:11
And if people want to follow you, mark,
how do they, how do they find you?
639
:
00:33:15
mark: Uh, the best thing
is, um, probably LinkedIn.
640
:
00:33:16
I'm not really much on social media apart
from LinkedIn, so, um, but yeah, they
641
:
00:33:20
can find me so, so Mark Pawn on LinkedIn?
642
:
00:33:22
, kev: Thank you Mark.
643
:
00:33:23
Thank for your time as well.
644
:
00:33:24
Been
645
:
00:33:24
mark: Oh, no problem.
646
:
00:33:25
It's been a real pleasure.
647
:
00:33:26
Thank you.
