Shownotes
In this episode, Kev and Tracey are joined by Mark Born, Head of the AA Driving School Academy and Operational Performance, to explore how technologies such as AI and virtual reality could support anxious drivers—now and in the future.
We chat about:
- How virtual reality is revolutionising driver and instructor training, making practice safer and more accessible for nervous drivers
- The potential of AI and in-car technology to help track progress, build confidence, and personalise learning
- The importance of balancing technology and human support, ensuring anxious drivers feel empowered, not overwhelmed
While listening to this episode, ask yourself:
- How would you feel about practising tricky driving situations in a safe, virtual environment before facing them in real life?
- What kinds of information or feedback could help you feel more confident on your driving journey?
- Where do you think technology could support you, and where would you want a real person by your side?
Tune in for a fascinating glimpse into the evolving world of driving support!
Mark Born
Head of AA Driving School Academy & Operational Performance I’ve spent the past 20 years working in driver training and education around the world, helping people become safer, more confident drivers. With experience across different countries and licensing systems, I bring both industry knowledge and a passion for making learning to drive easier and less stressful. My focus is on supporting learners and instructors alike, so that the journey to getting on the road feels positive and achievable.
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* Do you avoid driving whenever possible? * Do you feel like the only person who is anxious about driving? * Would you like to drive wherever you want, whenever you want? * Are you ready to take action to improve your driving confidence? Follow the prompts, questions, exercises and reflections each week to create your own goal based action plan to work on your driving mindset. Created by Kev & Tracey Field to help anxious drivers take action and track their progress over twelve weeks based on our unique Drive Calm® System, you set your own goals so you can work at your own pace.
Transcripts
On this episode, we're welcoming on Mark Bourne, who is
2
:the head of the AA Driving School
Academy and operational performance.
3
:And Mark's come on to talk to us
about how technology can support
4
:anxious drivers in the future.
5
:Welcome, mark.
6
:mark: Hello, hello.
7
:kev: Hi Mark.
8
:It's so nice to talk to you 'cause I
know where you are in the industry and
9
:what sort of people you are talking to.
10
:So when you said , you're gonna
talk about ai, I'm really interested
11
:'cause it's something I'm not.
12
:I haven't got a clue, even though I'm
driver trainer and what new things are
13
:coming in that we need to know about.
14
:So I think that's gonna be
really interesting for me and
15
:how it affects drivers as well,
or potentially might even help.
16
:mark: Yeah, no, exactly.
17
:It's, um, I mean the AI movement
it's moving incredibly quickly.
18
:I mean within driver training and
education and things like that,
19
:you know, driver education, it,
it can sometimes take a little bit
20
:longer for things to filter through.
21
:, And of course there is that fear all
the time of, well, what's actually
22
:gonna replace a driving instructor?
23
:Surely not.
24
:And I mean, I had the same when
we introduced virtuality into,
25
:into driving instructor training
and all of my trainers, well,
26
:you're just trying to replace us.
27
:And it absolutely wasn't.
28
:It was about.
29
:Actually making their job easier because
our trainees had more experience and,
30
:, and knew more when they actually then
got into the car and worked with them.
31
:And, and I think that's the real
opportunity with technology.
32
:It's not about replacing people.
33
:It's about how can you actually
enhance that training environment
34
:or that working environment with the
technology and the person, because
35
:ai, I mean, I absolutely love it.
36
:But it's not always right.
37
:Yeah.
38
:And it needs it.
39
:It doesn't know everything.
40
:It knows an awful lot and I'm
always really surprised when I'm
41
:using AI and, and things like that.
42
:, But it needs that human as well, which is.
43
:I mean, again, especially, um, if
we're talking about learner drivers
44
:and, and people that are perhaps
a bit anxious about driving, the
45
:default of having an AI robot sitting
next to you or something like that
46
:just must be absolutely terrifying.
47
:But, um, but that's not how,
how I'd see it would work.
48
:I think there's other ways
of doing things, so, yeah.
49
:kev: I've not been called a robot yet.
50
:Yeah.
51
:mark: No.
52
:kev: And I, I actually think that
for an anxious driver, I wouldn't
53
:mind betting that there's two camps.
54
:That there are some anxious and
nervous drivers who would quite happily
55
:say, yep, let me just hand over to.
56
:A robot or you know, just some, just
somebody else to take responsibility.
57
:And then I bet there's another
camp who are like, oh no, because
58
:there's that control element.
59
:So it's, I think it all depends where your
nerves and anxiety come from, doesn't it?
60
:As to, how you feel about it.
61
:So you mentioned the, I I know we've got
two things to talk about, haven't we?
62
:We've got virtual reality
and then we've got the ai.
63
:What, what one did you
wanna talk about first?
64
:Mark?
65
:mark: I think if we start
about the virtual 'cause I
66
:think that's, that's where.
67
:it's been around for a long time.
68
:Technology has definitely,
again, you know, really sort
69
:of come on and, and developed.
70
:And funny enough, it was always
one, we, we introduced it for, for
71
:instructor training, but it wasn't
necessarily one that I thought, oh
72
:yeah, I can see a definite link into,
driver training beyond sort of has a
73
:perception and, and things like that
that, um, that people have gone down.
74
:You know, I just thought,
well, if you're just doing.
75
:Educational videos, does it
matter if somebody's in a headset?
76
:But actually there's been a few
people I've been speaking to
77
:recently and I'm thinking actually
there is a real opportunity.
78
:And it does come down to technology
change as well, because I'm thinking
79
:very much around, well, as everybody
starts to move into electric vehicles
80
:and we lose the clutch pedal and
the the gear, the gear stick.
81
:Those cars are still gonna
be around for a long time.
82
:So how do you actually prepare a,
a group of drivers that perhaps
83
:learn in an automatic vehicle, but
then need manual tuition as well?
84
:And so I think that the opportunity for
VR for people that are perhaps nervous
85
:about driving or want some, you know,
some development or, or those learner
86
:drivers coming through is actually VR
used within a simulator type environment.
87
:So rather than actually sitting in a
simulator and having TV screens in front
88
:of you and you're pretending you're
in the car, but you can actually look
89
:round and you can see people walking
past you or whatever, you know, if
90
:you're actually sitting in a simulator
and you put a headset on so that you
91
:are in a free 60 environment, then
obviously it's much, much more immersive.
92
:And then you, you've really gotta do,
and, and that's the thing about the VR
93
:technology now, is you can have this all.
94
:Augmented reality.
95
:So actually you could program it so that
when you look down at your gear stick
96
:that's physically next to you, you do see
your gear stick, but the person that's
97
:just standing beyond your gear stick,
that's actually watching you drive your
98
:vehicle, you might not be able to see.
99
:So, you know, I think that's
the real opportunity with the
100
:vr and then it's the scenes that
are available in the VR as well.
101
:You think about how easy it is now to
say, use like Google places or something
102
:like that, where you can actually
start to see the road environment.
103
:and so actually being able
to create local roads.
104
:And things like that.
105
:So actually you are not just driving
around some random set, you're actually
106
:driving round or perhaps choosing the
journey that you, you know, you know
107
:that you're gonna be doing in the future.
108
:and so I think that's the real opportunity
and, and I sort of picture it thinking,
109
:well, motorway driving, you know, lots
and lots of people are a bit anxious
110
:about getting onto the motorways.
111
:Um, and of course.
112
:Can you imagine?
113
:You know you're going, right, we're
gonna head onto this motorway.
114
:We don't really know
how busy it's gonna be.
115
:We don't know how congested
that that junction is.
116
:We might get, you know, it might
be a smart motorway, so we might
117
:have some foot lane closures
and speed limits in you game.
118
:It'll all be okay though.
119
:But imagine that to, you could
put that in a virtual environment
120
:and you can, okay, right.
121
:We're gonna enter this motorway
in this virtual environ.
122
:And this is what it's gonna be.
123
:This is gonna be your level of
traffic, this is gonna be the
124
:speed limit that's gonna be there.
125
:And you get to rehearse and practice that.
126
:And that's the real opportunity, I think,
to sort of think about, yeah, how can
127
:somebody be from, you know, that is
a little bit anxious or, or even not
128
:even anxious, just wants to build up
their training in a step by step way.
129
:the technology's coming on so much.
130
:So I think there is that opportunity
to how to do that and, and to think,
131
:right, actually I can experience
the real world environment in a
132
:really safe virtual environment.
133
:Get that practice and then feel ready
to take that next step of going, right?
134
:I now wanna sit next to
a driving instructor.
135
:And go out and experience
exactly the same junction.
136
:Of course, all the cars and things
like that will be different and the,
137
:you know, the, the factors around
you, but it's just, it's that familiar
138
:bit of being able to go, right,
okay, I've driven this 10 times.
139
:Yeah.
140
:I'm just now doing it a
little bit more for real.
141
:So, um, so that's, that's the, I
mean, when I think about when we first
142
:introduced VR training for our instructor
training and where we can go now.
143
:It is pretty amazing and, and I think a
lot of the people I've been talking to
144
:as well is that, is that that willingness
to sort of invest in this because.
145
:There needs to be something that actually
helps people learn, as I say, like a
146
:manual transmission when all the driving
instructor population potentially are
147
:over into automatic vehicles or electric
vehicles as, as we come, come through
148
:sort of the next five to 10 years.
149
:, So it's a, yeah, it's a good time
to jump on the technology and go,
150
:actually, how else could it be used?
151
:kev: VR just just ames
me how it does what?
152
:It's amazing.
153
:So is.
154
:mark: Yeah, so the, the challenge with
VR is one, you have got a headset on,
155
:and of course then, you know, you gotta
think, well, how, how do you get to.
156
:Put a headset on, you know, is it
something that you buy the headset and
157
:then it's, it's a program that's there.
158
:But if I'm talking about using it with
a simulator where you kind of think,
159
:well, you've gotta go to a location
for that and that sort of thing.
160
:Then once you've actually
got your headset on.
161
:Not everybody, , can sort of travel
through a road environment whilst
162
:they're actually not moving physically,
and, and so you might get that sort
163
:of VR and motion sickness and I
mean, it's been a few years now, but
164
:I, I learned a lot about this as we
were sort of setting up our program
165
:about how to best minimize that.
166
:But still, it's a very, you know,
it's sort a very real thing there,
167
:of, of, the brain thinking one
thing, but the body actually is
168
:not quite doing the same thing.
169
:And then with VR as well.
170
:And again, this is, the technology has
come on and changed, but you, you don't
171
:have, as much, , peripheral vision
as what you, you would have out there
172
:in a vehicle and things like that.
173
:So, you know, you, you have it to
turn a lot more and things like that.
174
:You, we can spin that to be in a real
positive 'cause obviously we know,
175
:you know, especially where if you're a
little bit anxious, you, you don't wanna
176
:move your head, you don't wanna move
your eyes from the front of the road.
177
:But actually moving your head
and moving your eyes is a, is a
178
:good thing for hazard perception.
179
:So, um, so yeah, there's some
advantages perhaps to going, yeah,
180
:it, it's, you, you, you've not got as
much peripheral awareness in there.
181
:kev: I think the things that I was
thinking when you were talking is.
182
:We often talk about the imagination.
183
:So we often talk about using imagery as
a way of helping people who are anxious.
184
:So very often somebody who's anxious
is using imagery in a negative way.
185
:They're imagining all the scenarios, all
the things that could go wrong, and they
186
:can, you know, they can really embed
themselves in that if they're, if they're.
187
:If they're really successful at imagery,
they can use it in the wrong way.
188
:So we turn that round and we talk
about people imagining their journeys.
189
:We talk about, sort of imagine you
are doing this particular, junction
190
:or this particular roundabout
and, and do it in your head,
191
:rehearse it in your head, mentally
rehearse it, mentally practice it.
192
:And actually what, VR is doing is
taking that one step further is making.
193
:It more real, it's making it
that potentially more accessible.
194
:'cause not everybody can use
imagery in a controlled way.
195
:Not everybody likes doing it.
196
:, Not everybody can do it.
197
:So that VR makes it really accessible.
198
:And of course, like you said, your brain
says, I've done this 10 times already.
199
:And well, it depends who
you talk to, doesn't it?
200
:So some people will say, your brain
reacts and responds in exactly the
201
:same way to imagined or virtual reality
experiences as it does to the real thing.
202
:Very often, it's not exactly the same
way, because logically you know that you
203
:are imagining it or it's vr, but your
body will often respond in exactly the
204
:same way to what your brain is seeing.
205
:So it really does give you that.
206
:It can give you that experience that
just gives you that bit more confidence
207
:that actually I know what I'm doing
here because I have practiced it.
208
:And I love that controllable element that
you were saying about with the motorway.
209
:So it's like, okay, we're gonna do that
motorway driving, or we're gonna do that
210
:roundabout, but we're gonna start off with
it being quiet, and then we can build it
211
:up and make it a bit more complicated.
212
:So it's that bite size.
213
:Hmm.
214
:Yeah.
215
:Is, has you, have you tried this, I know
you do the instructor training through vr.
216
:Have you put sort of like,
I'm gonna say the general
217
:public, that sounds really bad.
218
:I, I can't think of the moment,
another word , but have you put that,
219
:those people in it to drive that
may feel a bit anxious or nervous?
220
:mark: So, no, I mean the only VR that
we currently have access to within
221
:the driving school is our instructor
training, vr, and um, and it's
222
:only really through exploring out.
223
:, I've had conversations with people over
in the US and Canada, you know, across
224
:Europe and then, you know, previous
colleagues and things like that.
225
:And it's only through conversations with
them that I've gone, oh, actually, okay.
226
:There are now other applications and
opportunities and things like that.
227
:And, and I think that's the
bit where I think, well, if.
228
:Over the next year, two years, this is
where I really want to sort of, you know,
229
:be able to, to go, right, okay, that's
our next, next opportunity and project.
230
:, But it is fascinating what people
are already developing and, and
231
:I, I think back to when we first.
232
:Launched vr.
233
:, And it comes a little into what you
were just saying about visualization.
234
:I was having conversations that I
didn't understand, but I was having
235
:conversations with people and they
were trained in autonomous vehicles.
236
:And they were like, well, actually
what we've realized is we don't need
237
:autonomous vehicles to spend hundreds
and hundreds hours out on the road
238
:because then an autonomous vehicle
doesn't know whether that's a real road
239
:environment or a virtual road environment.
240
:And so they were talking to me about,
well, how can you create virtual road
241
:environments for autonomous vehicles?
242
:And so I think that's the
thing is, yeah, you know.
243
:Coming into the world of AI a
bit there , and things like that.
244
:But I think that's the bit is you can
go, well, actually yeah, sometimes you,
245
:you're not tricking the brain and you're
not tricking the, you know, the autonomous
246
:vehicles, but you are just adding another
level in into there that, that helps.
247
:And I think what you just said as
well, Tracy, in terms of, of sometimes
248
:you just need a little bit of extra
confidence and things like that, you
249
:know, we are, we're not, and this is
my, I think comes back to right what
250
:I was saying at the beginning is.
251
:It's looking about how techno
technology could help not replace,
252
:and that's the bit is going right.
253
:Well, it doesn't matter.
254
:You know, we could have a fan.
255
:I mean, even just having a motorway
junction and being able to sort
256
:of change the environment in their
motorway junction in a VR sounds really
257
:impressive, but you can't do everything.
258
:and so it's just recognizing
that actually technology is
259
:great, but it has limitations.
260
:And that's where then that real world
driving experience really does take over.
261
:kev: Yeah, I think
that's really important.
262
:Really important.
263
:And what also popped up in my head
then, and I don't know why, and I think
264
:it might be 'cause I've heard you talk
about the subject in the past some
265
:years ago, could there be a danger that
it could make somebody overconfident?
266
:mark: So I think this is the other
interesting bit, which actually brings
267
:nicely into the AI opportunities as well
in terms of obviously overconfidence,
268
:especially young drivers and, and, and
things like that can be a real problem.
269
:And then so getting that
calibration correct.
270
:And so if I can just jump straight
into an AI opportunity, so,
271
:. An AI opportunity , in driver
training , is, it could be a a dash
272
:cam, so, or style, , opportunity.
273
:And quite often, again, when we
think about dash cams, we think
274
:around, it's reading the road ahead.
275
:It might be able to tell if you're
following too closely, speed limit
276
:violations and those sorts of things.
277
:But actually I think, well, you could
flip that and, and actually get.
278
:The AI intelligence to actually look
like, uh, what's happening in the car as
279
:well as what's outside the car as well.
280
:So, for example, , if there is
a speed violation, , has the
281
:instructor actually addressed that?
282
:How did they address that and, and
did they address that in the right
283
:sort of way that it wouldn't sort
of produce overconfidence under
284
:confidence and things like that?
285
:Because as a driving instructor, do we get
it right a hundred percent of the time?
286
:Probably not.
287
:And also we, we, you know,
marry up with, with other things
288
:and, and, and things like that.
289
:So actually having a bit of a, an AI bit
that sort of, you know, give some coaching
290
:support, some help there or identify as
it could help sort of calibrate that.
291
:It's also as well, I remember.
292
:Observing driving instructors.
293
:This was in the Netherlands, and so
they could go onto the motorways and
294
:things like that much before we could,
and I remember a young lad, um, being
295
:taken out by his driving instructor
and he wasn't particularly good.
296
:Some of the skills that he
needed for the basic roads.
297
:But anyway, his instructor took him out
and they did a junction , on the motorway.
298
:And I mean, uh, coming off the
instructor helped and intervened
299
:with the dual controls to help him
slow down and, and prepare for the,
300
:for the exit, the, you know, of, of
coming up to the first junction as
301
:they exited and things like that.
302
:And I did think, whoa, has that
person just been sort of confident,
303
:skyrocketed because they can go home
and go, I went on the motorway today.
304
:, And actually I think.
305
:Their driving skills, you
know, need, needs more work.
306
:But if you're using a dash cam, perhaps
with some AI sort of built into it,
307
:that could actually then start to
help a driving instructor understand.
308
:Right.
309
:They've got this experience, they've had
enough experience here, you know, with in
310
:this raw roads town driving, they've had
experience with some cyclists and things
311
:like that and start to really collect
all of that information that can then
312
:help the driving instructor think, right,
they've had all those bits of experience.
313
:We are definitely ready for that next
lesson of heading out onto the dual
314
:carriage, raise the high speeds roads
and the motorways and things like that.
315
:And so that's where I again, sort of
see AI being able to come in is, is to
316
:almost sort of produce that driver record.
317
:Of they've had enough experience and
if you think about young drivers as
318
:well, you know, often it all comes back
down to had they had enough experience.
319
:And so if you can get the AI to
actually go right, this is what's
320
:happening then, and things like
that, then, then absolutely.
321
:Gone a little bit round the sort
of houses on that bit, but there's,
322
:there's so many opportunities I think
with the ai, in terms of, yeah, just
323
:supporting the driving instructor and
in supporting the driver . And if we
324
:think, you know, for our, you know,
people that might be a little bit
325
:anxious, information's helpful, isn't it?
326
:, You can sort of think and I, I think
about, yeah, when I, I think about
327
:my daughter, it's like, oh no, I
haven't done this, this, and this.
328
:And, and often I go, well, no, you
kind of did that there and there
329
:and there, so you, you know, you
should be, you should be fine.
330
:You just can't think about it.
331
:And so actually being able to relay back
and then so, well, I've never done that.
332
:And you can sort of go, well actually,
look, this is what your, your driver's
333
:record's showing you is you have, I
dunno, driven at 40 miles an hour before.
334
:Gonna be absolutely fine
on this draw territory.
335
:Yeah.
336
:You know, there, there's, there's
those sorts of opportunities I think.
337
:kev: Yeah.
338
:That, that links in in
a few ways, doesn't it?
339
:'cause we were talking about memory
earlier and the fact that your
340
:memory tricks you all the time.
341
:, And it's, it's your, your
memory isn't true, very often.
342
:So you do easily forget those things
and that data, and that's also
343
:reminding me of a conversation.
344
:We are very sad on our walks when
we were talking about talking about
345
:the blend of, um, black box data.
346
:And how useful that data is.
347
:So, so would you be linking up
the AI camera in the car alongside
348
:the data that potentially the
black box is picking up and then
349
:collating those two things together?
350
:Because, oh my God, that would
be so powerful, wouldn't it?
351
:mark: Yeah.
352
:Well, it's funny that there's a
company I've been talking to in the
353
:US and that's exactly what they are
doing is, is connecting dash cam data
354
:with, with the cars car data as well.
355
:And, , because you know, I mean, I
know now and, and as I'm sure you do.
356
:In modern vehicles, you have,
um, the sign recognition that
357
:tells you the speed limit.
358
:It's not always right.
359
:You know, it sometimes misses
a sign and things like that.
360
:So it's, it's really helpful to
have lots of different sources of
361
:data to bring together and then
you get that, that truer picture.
362
:and absolutely, I mean, a lot of the
cameras have sort of, , the, the sensors
363
:in, don't they, for half breaking
and, and, and, and things like that.
364
:But possibly not as reliable as what's.
365
:Built into the vehicles.
366
:And so if you can combine those
sources of data, I think you've got
367
:a a yeah, a really powerful solution.
368
:And, um, and that, you
know, we do it all the time.
369
:You know, if we think about our, our
navigation systems and, and all the
370
:different systems that we've got,
it's just trying to harness that
371
:in the right way, really, and being
able to, to have, um, yeah, that,
372
:that user experience benefit from it.
373
:kev: See, I I, I think ai.
374
:Virtual reality.
375
:I think it's the future, but
it's also with us at the moment.
376
:We just don't know how
to use the best of it.
377
:We haven't quite worked that out
yet, but what, you know, people
378
:like us,, we talk to people all the
time and we can see the benefits.
379
:How do we get this across to
the general public that, uh.
380
:Probably more dubious of it, that they
can't see the benefits, I suppose.
381
:You know, people that listen to this
podcast will go, so what are you trying?
382
:Are you gonna be watching me all the time?
383
:' cause that's, that's, we're not, we
are out training with these people.
384
:That's what they think.
385
:They think it's like watching them,
which then gives them that anxiety.
386
:Oh yeah.
387
:The thing of worry about being
judged and the social concerns
388
:of what other people think.
389
:Okay.
390
:Yeah.
391
:So how, how does that sound with
potentially what you found out already?
392
:mark: I think this, the important bit is,
is how information then is, is brought
393
:back to, to the benefit of the user.
394
:, And so it really is thinking
very clearly about what, what
395
:is being displayed to them.
396
:If you've got information, say on
speed, on following distance and
397
:things like that, it doesn't just, it
can't just give you that information.
398
:It needs to tell you something
about that information and, and,
399
:and sort of give you some, some
guidance, um, for, for going forward.
400
:So I think that's a really
important part of it.
401
:The other bit though, is.
402
:Being able to switch it off and,
, especially, I mean, if in a driving
403
:lesson, if you're driving instructors
using a dash cam and, and things like that
404
:and actually able to support you at the
moment, you know, you should have that
405
:opportunity to say, can we just switch
that off now and just let me focus 'cause
406
:it's making me feel funny or, or whatever.
407
:And, and I think, you know,
we, we have to recognize.
408
:Um, yeah, whilst there's so
much opportunity in technology,
409
:sometimes it's nice just to switch
off and, and not worry about it.
410
:So, um, yeah, can't do that with
all the car data that's there now.
411
:I mean, there's so much data isn't there,
but, um, but yeah, I think the other
412
:bit as well is AI can sound quite scary.
413
:But it's amazing how much it's already
there and, and so if people are sort
414
:of using things like open AI and
chat GPT and things like that, you
415
:know, it's those sorts of things
that actually they, people can.
416
:Find benefit from.
417
:and it could just be asking and saying,
I, you know, I've got this journey.
418
:And, , any tips, any hints.
419
:Again, it can give you information.
420
:You've gotta sort of do the
responsible thing of thinking, right?
421
:Is that all accurate?
422
:And, and, you know, how am I gonna sort of
take that on and use it, um, in my head,
423
:that's not very much dissimilar to social
media these days, you know, in terms of, I
424
:can ask a question on social media and get
loads of responses, but really, you know.
425
:I dunno, there's an advert, I think
at the moment you, you know, do
426
:you wanna use a lemon or deodorant?
427
:, You've gotta still, you know,
take that responsibility of,
428
:of that, that information.
429
:, But yeah, I, I suppose come back to
that original bit of technology's
430
:there, it's just about how we harness
it and then harness it to help, as
431
:opposed to sort of replace or, or
to, to watch people too carefully.
432
:So, yeah.
433
:kev: Yeah, there's all sorts
of things you could do.
434
:You could say, I'm doing this
journey so what would be good
435
:rest stops for me on this journey.
436
:Where are the.
437
:but then you need to take the
responsibility to make sure
438
:that those service stations
or whatever are still there.
439
:So.
440
:mark: Yeah.
441
:kev: Before actually going
and doing the journey, rather
442
:than relying on it completely.
443
:Otherwise, I can see a whole new, we
did a podcast episode about a year
444
:ago with people sat nav stories where
people were telling their stories
445
:of all sorts of weird and wonderful
things that happened to them because
446
:they followed the sat nav regardless.
447
:So I, I could see an AI
version of that as well.
448
:But, but yeah, it is just about
all about bringing it all together.
449
:Using it, isn't it?
450
:It's remembering to fact check
the information that you get.
451
:mark: Yeah, I think the satin as well is,
I mean, you know, we can link that into
452
:sort of autonomous driving and, and, and
what's happening in cars at the moment.
453
:As you say, everyone's gone
through that experience of
454
:trusting their satin n too much.
455
:But even then, you know, you know,
really you have your satin nav
456
:on, but you've gotta use your eyes
457
:it's the same if you've got any sort of
semi-autonomous driving on your vehicle.
458
:Now, you know whether that's your.
459
:Adaptive cruise control and
your lane keeping assist.
460
:You know, you can't just put that on
and go, right, it's all gonna be okay.
461
:Car's gonna take full responsibility
for everything that goes on.
462
:You've got to sort of, you know,
learn, learn about it , and,
463
:you know, understand it and, and
still hold that responsibility.
464
:And I think then that sort of
almost answers that question of.
465
:Some people getting more anxious
because a car is doing things.
466
:Other people being able to go,
well, actually that's all okay.
467
:I think everybody needs to understand
these systems because then if you are more
468
:anxious about it, at least you've got an
understanding of it and you know, perhaps
469
:when it's not gonna operate as well as it
perhaps should and, and things like that.
470
:Or if you are completely okay
with it, well you've got some
471
:understanding there to do, to go.
472
:Don't trust it a hundred percent.
473
:You still need to be active
in, in that driver seat.
474
:, So I think, yeah, knowledge
is definitely quite key here.
475
:And again, these are complicated
systems, you know, and, and
476
:getting more and more complicated.
477
:And so it's all about, well,
how does that information get.
478
:Trade, you know, in a really
useful and meaningful way
479
:that doesn't overwhelm people.
480
:Um, 'cause unfortunately, yeah, it's
not, you know, it's quite often you buy
481
:a vehicle and then all of a sudden you
are, you are out there having to work out
482
:and play with it and things like that.,
483
:As opposed to having that
trusted source next to you.
484
:But again, that might be where.
485
:AI assistant comes in that you
can ask the car, well, how do you
486
:actually operate and do this sort of
thing and, and make these decisions.
487
:So who knows, who knows
what the future is.
488
:But um,
489
:kev: I
490
:mark: a very interesting period.
491
:Yeah.
492
:kev: Oh, I was just about to say that.
493
:'cause it's, there is so many
possibilities, isn't there, you know,
494
:for cars, but then it's, I know I'm
coming off topic like I normally do
495
:in this, but , the structure, the
infrastructure of our roads needs
496
:to be there as well, doesn't it?
497
:And I think sometimes that has a, a
detrimental effect on what we're trying
498
:to do to help people when the, the
infrastructure's not there as well.
499
:mark: Yeah, no, absolutely.
500
:And um, I mean, yeah, again, I mean if
we talk about just electric vehicles
501
:at the moment, that's one of the big
things that people worry about in terms
502
:of infrastructure and, and you know,
not being able to charge and range
503
:anxiety and all of this sort of thing.
504
:, And actually, I mean, just now.
505
:Just to bring in the experience of the
other part of the business in, in terms
506
:of our breakdown, very few breakdowns are
because people have run out of charge.
507
:Most electric car breakdowns still are
around tires and still are around the,
508
:the 12 volt battery that that operates
everything else rather than the actual
509
:big batteries that's power in the car.
510
:But it is about planning.
511
:Again,, and really sort of thinking about
those journeys and , so yeah, , it's,
512
:um, infrastructure and things like that.
513
:Yeah.
514
:I, I think it's just work,
working that through.
515
:I'm thinking, right, okay,
well this is what I'm doing.
516
:This is where I'm going and,
and, and things like that.
517
:Interestingly, I was thinking
the other week as well, well,
518
:if you've got autonomous cars.
519
:Do you need pavements and curbs
and do you need road signs and
520
:do you need white lines all down
the road and things like that.
521
:'cause an autonomous car will probably
behave a lot better than some of
522
:our other drivers out there, um, and
won't break the speed limits and won't
523
:do this and, and things like that.
524
:And I was thinking, well, do
they actually need lanes to help
525
:them position if they're not
actually using the white lines?
526
:And so, um, it would be, yeah,
I mean, we're talking about.
527
:Way, way, way in the future,
but you just gonna go, hold on.
528
:Does this just change everything in
actually how we perceive, you know,
529
:movement on, on the road and the, the
road infrastructure, but, um, but yeah, so
530
:we're getting well away from, from giving
confidence to anxious drivers, but, um.
531
:kev: Yeah.
532
:No, we, we love it though.
533
:We love it and, and actually 'cause
a lot of the autonomous vehicles do.
534
:The lines , they're the thing that, that's
really important at the moment, aren't
535
:they?
536
:That's the bit, that's the bit of
the infrastructure that's not there,
537
:, that's maybe holding things back.
538
:But yes, you're quite right in the future.
539
:Satellite, see GPS what you had
to tell and the more autonomous
540
:vehicles that there are.
541
:Oh, scary or exciting?
542
:mark: Yeah, I was gonna
say scary or exciting.
543
:Yeah, yeah.
544
:Depends which way you look at it, but uh,
545
:kev: Yeah.
546
:The kids will have me in a
home before that all comes in.
547
:Yeah, be fine.
548
:It'd be fine.
549
:so when we, we did an
episode with Adam, Dr.
550
:Adam Asal, who had brought out
his recent piece of research.
551
:And right at the beginning of that,
before he started his four year piece of
552
:research, his whole aim was to research
the use of VR with anxious drivers.
553
:Um, but actually.
554
:He had to sort of like take several steps
backwards because he needed to fill in
555
:the, the lack of research around anxious
drivers before he could move forward.
556
:So he, he never actually got
to that part of, you know, for
557
:him he feels that, yeah, VR.
558
:Could be a really good way forward.
559
:so it'd be interesting to see if we
ever get to a point where we do get
560
:to do some research on it and, you
know, that can be looked at 'cause it
561
:feels as if it's got real potential.
562
:And definitely that link up, I think of
the, the ai, the in-car camera, the, you
563
:know, the data from the car along with.
564
:An instructor and somebody who can
actually interpret that in a way
565
:to produce, like you say, a record,
a learning record or a driving log
566
:that somebody can look back and
go, actually, I've done this and
567
:look at all these great things.
568
:Suddenly when you look at , does
somebody feel negatively about their
569
:driving or do they feel positively
if you've got a report where
570
:actually you've got a whole load of.
571
:Green, something green ticks or something
to say, look at how great all of this was.
572
:And you know, and this is an area
for a bit more improvement, but
573
:, overall, , look at all this good stuff.
574
:It'd be great.
575
:mark: Well, that's it.
576
:And it's still, and, and that's what I,
I think what I like about the opportunity
577
:is it still needs that human element.
578
:To be able to put that across
in a, you know, in a human
579
:way and, and things like that.
580
:And, , because again, it is
very easy to go, oh, that's
581
:just what the computer says.
582
:That's not really my drive in, you know?
583
:And so you do need that
reassurance, don't you?
584
:, And better put it across.
585
:And, I don't think vr, I don't think
AI and all of these sort of connected
586
:systems are the, the end of driving
instructors, you know, there still
587
:needs to be a driving instructor.
588
:And even as we go down and.
589
:Vehicles become more and more autonomous.
590
:You know, there's, there's gonna be more
and more reasons that you're gonna need a
591
:driving instructor to really sort of help
through that bit of, of, you know, we're
592
:not even if, yeah, we have cars now that,
that do drive out on the public roads and,
593
:and don't really need human intervention.
594
:There are a really number of those cars,
you know, and so we've got a really long
595
:time before the whole car park is switched
over to autonomous cars and you know, you
596
:need a driving instructor that's able to
interpret that and go, Hey, look at that
597
:car that's not got any autonomy on it.
598
:That's somebody that's kept that alive.
599
:'cause they wanted to keep a manual, you
know, manual transmission and, and they've
600
:got that car running till 20 years later.
601
:So I think.
602
:Well touch wood, you know,
we're all good until retirement.
603
:Um, and that's, that's, that's my aim.
604
:So, um.
605
:kev: I've only got four years.
606
:Mark, is there anything that we
haven't managed to talk about yet?
607
:Is there anything that you thought,
oh, I really wanna talk about that?
608
:Or is there anything that we haven't
asked you and you wish we had asked you?
609
:mark: No, I don't think so.
610
:I think it is, as I say, you know, in
terms of, especially if we are looking
611
:for, you know, to give people confidence,
in learning to drive or getting back into
612
:that driving seat, it is around, as I
say, it's about the information there.
613
:But you know, as this technology
does come in and as it grows, you
614
:know, it's, it's sort of, it is
to go, well, let's give it a go.
615
:Let's, let's see what, see what that is.
616
:And, and so I think that's, yeah, it,
it try and keep, give people confidence.
617
:kev: Nice.
618
:Lovely.
619
:Mark, thank you so much
for your time today.
620
:It's been great.
621
:It's, it's fascinating having
that glimpse into the future.
622
:It's, it's a fascinating subject that
there's, we don't know the answers,
623
:which is even fantastic 'cause
you just go, what could this do?
624
:What could it be interesting to
see the next five years I feel.
625
:mark: Yeah, no, absolutely.
626
:And I think, you know, it's, um, I mean,
there's always that commercial aspect
627
:that comes into things and things like
that, but as I say, I think there is that
628
:opportunity, you know, to go, actually,
there's a real need for, for technology to
629
:really come into, to supporting as, as we
go through this transition from, you know.
630
:Ice vehicles, so combustion
engine vehicles through to,
631
:through to electric vehicles.
632
:, And what's really interesting, as
I say, is, is the conversations
633
:I've been having with people about
how, where they are on that journey
634
:and what they're sort of seeing.
635
:And so yeah, let, let's, um,
really hopefully shape, shape the
636
:technology that's coming through
to, to have a real benefit.
637
:kev: Brilliant.
638
:And if people want to follow you, mark,
how do they, how do they find you?
639
:mark: Uh, the best thing
is, um, probably LinkedIn.
640
:I'm not really much on social media apart
from LinkedIn, so, um, but yeah, they
641
:can find me so, so Mark Pawn on LinkedIn?
642
:, kev: Thank you Mark.
643
:Thank for your time as well.
644
:Been
645
:mark: Oh, no problem.
646
:It's been a real pleasure.
647
:Thank you.
