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Global “Retail” and Customer Centricity

Episode 75 • 30th May 2024 • The Retail Tea Break • The Retail Advisor

etail's Top Retail Expert for: 2024

You can listen back to previous Retail Tea Break podcast episodes on your favorite podcast platform, or of course on YouTube. And while you're there, please do subscribe to the podcast so that you get to listen to it first every week. So in the meantime, grab that cup of tea, sit back and listen in to season six of the Retail Tea Break podcast.

Today I'm joined by a guest who has spent over 30 years in the retail industry. Having worked all over the world with leading sports and footwear brands, including Adidas, New Balance and Under Armour, he specializes in global brand management. From redefining operational processes to increase profits, to building high performance and highly engaged teams, today's guest really understands the customer experience.

This strategic global leader has made a name for himself, driving growth and innovation whilst transforming the retail landscape. Bob Neville, Retail and Brand Maestro, welcome to the Retail Tea Break Podcast.

Thanks Melissa, thanks for having me on your tea break and I'm having a tea break myself and a massive hello to all those listeners and watchers of your channel. So, so happy to be here.

I'm delighted to have you, Bob, because again, as I said there, the experience and knowledge you hold absolutely excites me and I can't wait to dig into that. But look, in the age old fashion of the Retail Tea Break podcast, even though you've got your cup of tea in front of you, in the time that it takes to boil a kettle, which I'm told is about two minutes, tell us a little bit more about you and your background in this industry.

Okay. Yeah, sure. It's really interesting. I think when you, you meet people in retail, people arrive in retail and that's obviously a very broad topic for lots and lots of different reasons. But my entry, my entry point is through product design. I studied product design. I'm very, I was very passionate about product design, still am. And the thing is when you have one of your products in store and then you watch people interact or not interact with your product, for me, that started to get me interested in how do I get human beings to do something? I, you know, I pick up my product and buy my product and I sort of then ended up on this journey of, I suppose, more consumer behavior, storytelling getting human beings to do something. I know that sounds very sort of like very vague, but I think retail as a subject is also so multifaceted. It's very hard just to put that into, into one bracketed term. And, and as you know, through our conversations, I really dislike the word retail.

I don't, I don't know what to call it. But, you know, I, I'm, I'm, I'm globally active in retail, but retail, you know, is it's, it means to take something large, cut it up into small pieces and sell it for a profit. And I, I think very much today more than ever, you know, I don't know what to call it, but retail is so much more than that and has to be so much more than that, but hopefully that was less than two minutes.

But my entry point was watching people walk past products that I'd sweated blood over. To then getting into the whole mechanics of human behavior and storytelling. And, and I typically say to people that that's what I do is I tell a story and that story engages people with brand and product.

And, and that's how you generate great, great brand engagement and, and sell through ultimately. So hopefully that was less than two minutes.

I love that, Bob. And actually, that's what really excited me the very first time we spoke is you turned around and you said, yeah, I don't like the word retell. And I think my jaw hit the floor and I was like, great. That's every lister switching off and every viewer just going, what's she done this time? But actually when you explained it like you have there, you've stripped this right back. It's the product, which every single person listening has multiples of, even if they're a product based company selling DTC.

It's about how you get the shopper, so me walking down the high street or coming onto the internet, picking that product that is yours and making it their own, which actually is exactly what we're all trying to do. So in that respect. What does good, and I'm almost going to put retail in air quotes here, what does good retail look like then to Bob Neville?

I think that I, I don't want to just reference some, some environments. I mean, you know, we, we all know those environments you know, I'll have to use the word retail as I'm not sure of another good way to describe it, but yeah, we all have those, those brands, those businesses, we just love to go along and spend time in and, and sort of almost lose ourselves in in that brand and what that brand stands for. But I think a key thing to great retail and it's amazing the amount of companies and brands that really miss this. They don't put the consumer at the center. They don't focus on the consumer and, and where and how that consumer wants to shop or interact with you as a brand and a business.

You know, so many companies still put their own operational process and structure at the forefront, and, and that's, that's ignoring the customer at your peril. So for me, brands out there, businesses out there that focus on the consumer and that consumer experience of where you really get that cut through and point of difference. But a lot of those disruptive brands, you know, some of those can be in quite traditional segments. I mean, you think the way Tesla started to sell cars, it was no longer that big out of town car lot. Nespresso, you know, goes from, you know, from English people aren't necessarily the best when it comes to coffee culture, you know, still the the builder's tea in that sort of dirty spoon cafe, which I love by the way. But you know, Nespresso moving into that sort of almost jewel like engagement with people, you know, it goes so much, goes so far beyond just the purchase of a product. Dyson, again, you think, you know, some of the, the electrical retailers here in the UK, and it's funny being here in the UK now for nine, 10 months, I'm catching up with a lot of the brands and businesses that are no longer here. But yeah, the way you would traditionally buy a vacuum cleaner versus the way, as an example, Dyson present the vacuum cleaner. I mean, that's, that's just an elevation of, of the product. But really connecting through with those consumer wants and desires. You know, it's, it's no longer something in the fifties that the husband buys for the wife at Christmas. It's, it's something which actually, you know, does become a very functional, but a thing of beauty, but answers consumers needs and wants. And yeah, so it's good consumer centricity, wherever you get that, wherever you get a brand or retailer using that, that's where I, I strongly believe you see great retail.

And I agree because actually I'm not a coffee drinker as anyone that listens to this podcast knows, I'm purely a tea drinker. I know Nespresso, of course I do. And it seems to bring that essence of luxury for that moment, for that ritual of you making your coffee in the morning. My husband's definitely a coffee drinker and I see him do that on his way out to work every day. It's that essence. It's that luxury. It's living in that moment, which actually, as you just said, that brand is selling you. They're not selling you a cup of coffee that you could buy in a jar and add a bit of hot water to. Likewise, with Dyson there, you know, and again, I'm going to say we are Dyson owners in this house. And it is, it's a very different way of buying into a brand. Cause again, you're buying into that lifestyle. Like you are with Apple, like you are with a lot of the athleisure wear brands, it's adding value to that shopper's life experience. And it's almost harmonizing the brand with their values and their mission and the shopper and bringing them on what feels it feels like a lifelong journey. Like I don't know anyone that has ever owned an Nespresso machine that's just had one coffee and gone, not for me, thanks, that can sit there or I'm going to gift it to someone else. Same with a Dyson. It does feel like once you buy into these brands, you're kind of with them for life.

And that's, and I think that's really important because something, you know, when you have conversations with people that are in retail it's almost, it's almost like people look at retail as isolated siloed activities. You know, there's, there's retail operations and there's retail marketing and, you know, you know, never the two shall meet, you know, whereas, whereas for me, I believe, you know, we've got to look at process and operational efficiency. So, you know, do we have the products, the right products in the right place at the right time, based on consumer wants and needs, and at the same time, emotional engagement. And, and I've seen time and time again, is that sometimes, you know, it can quite often happen where the company's so focused on one aspect, they forget about that 360 view. And the reality is, you know, you can have a great retail concept. Actually can have some great process of logistics and supply chain. You've got retail in the wrong place. Your real estate strategy is not right, or there's pieces missing. So you know, conversation I had as recent as last Thursday the only way I could describe it was that, you know, you, you have to look at things like you're a conductor of an orchestra and the person I was having a conversation with, you know, I, I just turned around and I said, that's like making the guy that plays the trumpet or the trumpet section lead the whole thing. I said, they have their place to, you know, to play, but you know, it's not, it's never going to work. It will seem to work in isolation, but there's no longevity with that. So process operational efficiency with emotional engagement, I think is really important. And I think if, if anything coming out of COVID. You know, I think that's something that we as human beings, and I think that's the important part. We're, we're human beings and human beings, you know, we learned through COVID, human beings love to be with other human beings. We enjoy companionship. We enjoy, you know storytelling, you know, we enjoy sharing. So I think that's been an interesting perspective when it comes to, you know, omni channel, direct to consumer, you know, that blend of online, offline, physicality, virtual reality. But it's, it's very, again, very much, we've got to make sure we focus on the consumer. Where do they want to interact with us and how do they want to interact with us? And what's the best way for us to get our, our brand, our story, our mission, vision, all those things. And ultimately the product into that person's hand at the time that makes sense for them. And we have to be comfortable with the fact that You know, people can come into your stores, look at something and then purchase online. And again, you still have those instances where, you know, a store managers losing sales because they have a fulfillment role. You know, pick up on, you know, pick up in store and things like that. So again, it's, we as human beings, I think have a lot of evolution to, to attend to. And evolution is, is far more cost efficient than revolution. But we've got to make sure, you know, change is the only constant, you know, evolution, revolution. We've got to continually move and look to the future all the time.

I laughed there when you talked about the store manager. It reminds me of a story just from last week. I was in a flagship store, chatting away to store manager. Store looked incredible. But he was really down and I was like, what's wrong? May has been quite strong for an awful lot of people out there. And he's like, yeah, May is strong, but it's not as strong as they want it to be. And when I pulled apart this conversation, that was the issue that obviously, look, there were very customer driven brand. They're a very, very customer led store. They're, they're able with the tasking that they do to actually chat to the customer and spend the time with the customer, which is amazing. And actually what he's seeing more and more is that that's exactly what you said, Bob. Customers are coming in, they're physically touching the product, they're looking at it, they're exploring it, and then they're going home to buy it online.

Now they're still buying from the brand, but in his brain, as a store manager of this flagship store, he's losing money. And that's actually being fueled by the conversations having above him. Actually, why aren't customers buying from you? So he's been told he has to try and ensure people buy from him when they come in. However, at the end of the day, the brand is still succeeding in getting shoppers to buy from them across the board, across the channels. But he's been almost bashed by people above him saying, no, you must make them buy from you. So I understand that. I know there were people listening to this as store managers going, but it isn't fair. Why are we being told one thing Bob saying another here that isn't it great that actually as a brand we're serving the customer in their channel. It feels like things are still a bit disjointed. We're talking about omni channel, we're talking about serving the customer in the many ways across any channel, but actually when it's coming to bog standard retail bricks and mortar, store managers are still getting scolded for not selling enough.

Yeah, I would. And it's such an interesting topic, you know, and it would vary very much by the brand and the business and and some are more advanced than this than others. But I think even just, you know, it's a very internal looking way of saying, Bob, you're head of, of wholesale Bob, your head of full price or outlet again, it's sort of, it's putting artificial silos and barriers onto something which the consumer doesn't see.

So again, consumer centricity, you know, you have to look at everything through that lens of the consumer. And, my sort of, Heart goes out to the store managers that get bashed over the head or maybe have limited products in their stock room and find themselves needing to fulfill some online orders and actually giving, you know, literally giving away to another channel that they don't get credit for commercial credit for, and then losing the ability to have that product in their physical store. So again, that, that holistic view process and operational efficiency, that consumer centric view is so important. But, but again, that's where, you know, Retail would be a more traditional way of calling that and looking at that.

But yeah, retail, the time, you know, you'd go to the local hardware store, you know, and you'd be able to do so many things there and it would be a family owned business, you know, they would get things off the shelf for you and. The, the, the sort of the shopkeeper would know, would have known your parents, your grandparents, and probably back beyond there. For me, that is, it, it's, it's old school, but it's, it's also retail, but I also think it talks a lot about the future, that, that consumer centricity, you know, understanding, knowing the consumer, knowing you and your family, knowing the things you like, the things you don't like. So, Again Confucius said something along the lines of consider the past and you will see the future.

And I think, you know, that's a really interesting way to look at it is that, you know, we shouldn't overlook what we as human beings need to thrive. And how do we engage with that as, as a business and as a brand? Because when you do, it really makes a difference to your business.

I absolutely agree. And I think more and more people are leading from the front with this. The, the good retailers that we see out there are starting to, to really make it a shopper journey. It isn't just about selling goods. It is that longevity, which as you said there, you know, it, it is about generational retail now. It is about having that customer from, from a teenager or, you know, a homeowner at start and moving with them throughout their life. But coming back on something you said there, and I'm mindful as well that you've held such incredible positions across the globe with big brands. How do you get people out of those silos? So look, if you're trying to get the stock in the right place at the right time, and God, we all know that phrase, but actually in reality, it's rubbish. How do you get people that are Outside that frontline position, who aren't necessarily meeting that customer every day, whether it's online and your Omnichannel experience or whether it's in store, how do you get them to buy into the fact that what they're doing, for the good or the bad, has an enormous impact on that shopper? And whether they buy today or whether they go to your competition?

Again, a really interesting point. Yeah, it's, it's not necessarily a straightforward answer, but for me, again, human being human interaction is so, so important. And, and, you know, you see organizations out there where C suite or executive leadership, you know, they, they sit there and head office wherever that may be in the world. And they don't actually go out into retail and see the reality or the reality for them, retail wise, physical retail wise, is maybe an easy distance from the head office. So quite often you'll see almost like this ink spot of like really cool looking, well invested retail around the head office. And then you have quarterly business reviews and things where, you know, you talk about, you know, You know, your consumer muse and, and yeah, we're meeting that consumer and blah, blah, blah.

And but, but the biggest thing I see is that you have to be out in stores. You have to be spending time with country management, with regional management, with store managers and, and And, and, you know, temporary summer staff, you have to spend time with these individuals because that's the quickest way you're going to really learn and understand what is happening to your business. You know, to sit there and look at a spreadsheet yeah, it can be very misleading. And, and, you know, one of my experiences was to the, the, the main board had this very strong view that our consumer was X you know, this young young consumer. I'm trying to be careful in how I use my words. But the reality was is that the number one store was a 10 year old factory outlet where people were buying get a discount.

So you've got to then understand what does your brand actually means to people? Where are people buying your product? And what does that product means to those individuals? So again, if you sit there in headquarters and you go to stores within headquarters, a handful of miles to that store, you're going to get this artificial vision and impression of your brand and who's buying. And it's very easy for, for country regional management to present numbers at quarterly business reviews with some curated photographs. But as a leader, if you actually get out there and look, it's, it's a little bit like, you know, the Empress needs new clothes. You suddenly, suddenly actually. What you're presenting to me is not the reality of what's happening in your market or region.

So I think long answer but, but I think the answer to that is, is that great leadership is about actually understanding all levels of, of your team and, and listening, you know, you, you've got two ears to listen and one mouth, you know, so, so there's a reason for that. And the amount of instances I've had where people turn around and go, you We've never had anyone from head office come here and they're so pleased for that engagement. So being out in market, incredibly important. It doesn't matter whether you've got a national role, a regional role, or a global role, you have to be in market. And that will then mean you have that rounded understanding of how you need to look at your business rather than sitting in, you know, your ivory palace and looking at how the business is structured.

That's how silos channel strategies and things come in. You definitely need channel strategies, but you have to have the understanding that the consumer moves very fluidly through all that and, and disengagement through a store manager thinking he's going to lose a sale that could be accredited him otherwise is something that great leadership is about making sure that's that, that, you know, that, that thought, that feeling is removed. So the whole company's pushing in one direction, which is ultimately going to provide greater success.

It's so refreshing to hear someone that sat at your level across global brands to say that, Bob, that, you know, being in store, meeting with the people who meet your customers every single day has been important to you and obviously the teams you've led, it's become important to them because it's the way you've driven and you've led the business and it's wonderful to hear that because I think the more that happens, the more change or even Organizational change will be easier to accept, but also that shows you're listening, which, as you said, there is hugely important.

From everything you've done over those last kind of 30 years. And I know we've mentioned some of it there, getting out onto the shop floor. Is there anything else on your list of, I suppose, even non negotiable basics that you feel that other brands or retail teams should be doing?

I think it, it's really truly understanding your brand's place in the market. You know, what do you stand for? What's your unique perspective? What is your story? And I think it's really important to make sure that you beat your own, you know, you, you beat a drum to, you know, to your own path. Is that the saying? Yeah. That you, you're true to who you are and you focus on, on who you are and you don't try and be someone else. And again, it's, it's quite amazing that the brands that are out there. Almost tried to emulate the market leaders as opposed to turning around and saying, right, what is, you know, what are our core truths? Where have we come from? What are our unique points of difference? And that doesn't matter whether you're yeah, a brand that has some significant history Or even if you're a fairly new startup, I mean, in all instances, you have to be aware of your uniqueness.

You know, why are you here? What, what is that value proposition? What, why should somebody engage with me? You know, in today's world with the time pressure on everybody, you know, you're after somebody, you know, spending some of their valuable time with you online, physical, wherever that may be. So, so what is that? And I think if you are true to who you are and you know who you are and you play to those strengths, it makes it very hard for others to, you know, to compete. And I think the other thing that's really important is that today's world's, it's very competitive. Yeah. There's, there's pressure on sort of generating more sales, generating more revenue to the bottom line. So I think, you know, in terms of ourselves as leaders, we have to provide value. Across the business, you know, being able to plug ourselves in ways into an organization in ways that brings maximum value rapidly, but I think also of agility and and not not necessarily politically correct. But, you know, the world today is It's about guerrilla warfare. Yeah. It's being unexpected. It's maximizing what resources you have, you know, the days of putting your hand up for more budget have long gone. So how do you, how do you really maximize the budgets you have? How do you turn up in unexpected ways? How do you add that sort of delight to, you know, to consumers, but being true to who you are and truly knowing who you are and what you're about is really, I believe the key and and, you know, we talk about, you know, retail is not dead. Yeah, bad retail is dead. And those that are succeeding are stepping beyond what would have been viewed as traditional retail, functional retail. So that's about combining process and operational efficiency with that emotional engagement. We as human beings want that emotional engagement and you can't forget that as a business because that will ultimately drive strong top line and your process and operational efficiency will then deliver a robust bottom line.

I think it also then frames everything that's done on a day to day. I've certainly been talking about that a lot in the classroom over the last A few weeks that you, there has to be a reason for you to do what you do.

And you have to share that with everyone that comes in the door, that wears your uniform, that wears your name badge, that people need to know there's a reason for them to be part of the journey as well, which kind of leads me into an interesting one. And again, I know you've worked with some incredible legacy brands as well as some much newer ones.

The idea of utilizing brands story to build or supposed to build upon that emotional connection with that customer. And I suppose again, can drive loyalty some would say, and keep them coming back. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the importance of that kind of brand story and getting it out there.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, I mean to, I'll, I'll use an example. New Balance, you know, a brand that, that I love immensely, you know, some incredible people there, doing some great, great work. And when you have brands that you know, have that sort of history, you know, that positive legacy it provides such an awesome foundation. But again, there's an understanding of things being cyclical that, you know, that people in an organization come and go. So sometimes, you know, you, you have a loss of an understanding of why and who you are as, as a, as a brand and as a business. And you know, when I joined New Balance I, I was super excited, some great, great people.

You know, the business was struggling and, and when you looked at it, I think we were at the time really quite preoccupied with wanting to be the number one performance sports footwear brand, you know, for running available in widths. And, and that's a very functional, you know, view and perspective. But it also, it lost the essence of, of who New Balance was and what New Balance was all about.

essence, you know, right from: 1906

It's the perfect example, I think, Bob, of how legacy and a brand story just brings everything bang up to date. Because as you say, me walking into a store today, I'll know now, having heard that story, that they do understand what they're doing, that they actually are mindful and looking after me as a shopper, you know, that my performance then will be better in whatever I do. And I think it links together, which therefore drives loyalty. Again, I buy my first pair today. They're obviously going to do what it says on the tin because they've been doing it for over 100 years. And then that's going to drive me to buy another pair in the future and probably share that story with others. So it's a lovely way, I think, to bring something very traditional right up to date for today's retail. And with that then, because I've got to ask you this question while I have you, where on earth do you think we're going with this? What do you think the future of retail looks like? Do you think we'll continue with those gorgeous stories like New Balance and just them bringing everything up to date, whether it's them, different brand with new tech and innovation, or actually do you think we're going to really embed ourselves now in very traditional values of just being customer centric?

If I could give her one sentence answer, then I would be a billionaire. It's obviously a multifaceted answer that's really needed for that. I think, I think something that's really important is getting back to core values. What do human beings want? Service being consumer centric is so, so important. That's why when you look at sort of retail from the forties and thirties and things, you have a shopkeepers, you need that level of of consumer centricity, being able to have customized product or you have your jeans altered or whatever else that you have that level of service almost like a concierge type of approach.

I think that's, that also provides a lot of mental stability for us all in a time of there's a lot of turbulence being going on now seems to be going on for years, but there's a lot of turbulence. So I think that reassurance you can go there. There's a brand, you know, a brand you can trust. There's people there that you can relate to that you're part of that tribe, I think is important.

For me I'm conscious. You know, I don't want to come across like some sort of like Luddite. I am very, very sort of focused on the future and technology. And, and there's, there's a whole load of things that, that I've been working in with regards to virtual retail and the gamification of the business of retail from product innovation through to reviewing retail data. But I think it's really dangerous to think that tech is the answer. You know, tech is an enabler. But we shouldn't lose sight of what is important for human beings and use these other things as a way of enhancing that experience. You know, being able to see a shoe on your foot with your phone is, is obviously awesome. And, and that can be part of that consumer journey, but ultimately, you know, a human being with something like a shoe needs to have it on their foot so they can really experience it. So I would say don't lose sight of what matters to human beings, who your customers are, what, what matters to them and where do those things matter on that customer journey and use technology because tech can be pretty expensive. You know, make sure you use technology in a way that enhances that and brings value to that, but somehow doesn't, there is no magic bullet to that human interaction, I believe, more than ever for the foreseeable future is going to is what we need. And again, I said earlier, COVID illustrated that. But let's see. I mean, the great thing about retail is that, you know, there's there's All sorts of subjective, objective, you know retail metrics, storytelling. Yeah. There's so many facets that go to make great retail that you can't pick one out in isolation. So again, process operational efficiency. Emotional engagement. Yeah. If you keep your eyes across those three broader buckets, then you will have a successful retail business, even though I hate the word retail. And I'd love to hear from anybody by LinkedIn or wherever. Maybe I should post something to say, well, if, if we don't call it retail, what, what should we call it? Because I find myself sort of just questioning and, and I, I feel if we could come up with an alternative descriptor that could be the future, but yeah, I'd answers on a postcard maybe.

Oh, definitely. There's a call to action for people listening. That's a fascinating one because yeah, you are definitely not comfortable using that word retail, and I'm quite mindful of it with this conversation as well, but for the right reasons as well. So I do think maybe we could change it. Maybe we could have a new words, if you can think of anything. Do let us know. But look, final question. What's coming up for you? I suppose for the rest of the year, where are you going? What are you doing?

I, the thing I I've loved about my journey and, and you know, all, all those incredible people I'm connected with on LinkedIn, all those incredible people professionally, personally, through my life. people connected with me professionally that become like family. They know that I, I, I'm on this journey that has twists and turns. And and I've never, Melissa, I've never sort of really sat there and said, right in two years time, I will be, or I'm going to do. And So what I am really, really excited about and enjoying so much is conversations like this is, is the conversations I'm having with a whole host of brands and people out there. But so, so I'm conscious my wife can hear this, but I'm not, I'm not quite sure what the next six months will hold. All I do know is it's going to be pretty exciting. Where in the world we'll end up living. Yeah, again, that's going to depend. I, I enjoy working with interesting people, founders, interesting brands. But, but the journey I'm on, I'm just loving. So maybe, maybe we should have a follow up in six months to see where Bob's at and make. Maybe by that, maybe by that time, I'm sort of working something very functional just to, just to generate a bit of housekeeping money.

Oh, but I think that's so exciting because as we said at the start, you've over 30 years experience with enormous massive global brands. And I think the experience and the knowledge that you bring is unbelievable. So I actually love for the fact that you're probably going to help even more people over the next six months, wherever that might be in the world. And how lucky are they in that respect? So I am, I'm excited to see what you do next, following you very closely on LinkedIn as well. But yeah, maybe we'll have to do part two now next year and see where Bob's at next.

I also just want to just, you sort of said over 30 years, I'm conscious. I, I do have some gray hair. I'm sort of not, I'm not near to the end of my life. You know, I just have, I have a lot of experience, a lot of energy and a lot of passions. So, so yeah, I, so in, in, in my mind, I'm still a lot younger than maybe my face portrays, but love meeting people, opportunities. And yeah, I'd, I'd, I'd love to hear from, from the people out there in the Retail Tea Break world and people on LinkedIn and yeah, interesting people. I can't get enough of them. So let's, let's have more conversations.

And I think that's key here. Keep these retailing, and again, I'm going to put that in quotation marks, keep these retail conversations going. Well, look, if you've enjoyed today's Retail Podcast episode, please do like and share. And as Bob said that do connect with him on LinkedIn, I'm going to pop his details in the show notes. Remember, you can find those show notes and the transcript for today's episode on our On theretailadvisor.ie. And as this is the last episode of season six, remember you can listen back to all past Retail Tea Break episodes on your favorite podcast platform, or of course on YouTube. And then we're back in the autumn with our third anniversary and season seven.

But for today, Bob Neville, thank you so much for your time and your expertise.

Absolute pleasure. And it's been a great retail tea break and I best get, I best get on with some, some real work and try and try and read, work out what the future of retail is going to look like. So really appreciate you hosting me and been a lot of fun and look forward to chatting again soon.

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