In this episode of But For Real, we delve into the transformative realm of expressive arts therapy with our distinguished guest, Wednesdae Reim Ifrach. Their expertise lies at the confluence of queer embodiment, complex trauma, and creative healing, offering a profound perspective on how art can serve as a conduit for emotional expression and personal growth.

We explore the misconception that art therapy is merely "arts and crafts for sad people," illuminating its true potential to facilitate deep, somatic healing beyond verbal communication. The conversation traverses the intersections of identity, creativity, and resistance, emphasizing the vital role of authenticity in both personal and professional spheres. Join us as we unpack these intricate themes, and discover how embracing one's multifaceted identity can foster resilience and empowerment in the face of societal challenges.

Takeaways:

• This episode explores the intersection of expressive arts therapy, trauma, and queer identity, highlighting their profound connections.
• We discuss how art therapy transcends mere creative expression, serving as a legitimate therapeutic modality for adults.
• The conversation emphasizes the importance of authenticity and personal expression in combating systemic oppression and fostering resilience.
• Listeners are encouraged to pursue their own creative endeavors as acts of resistance against societal norms and expectations.
• Wednesday's experiences illustrate the transformative power of art in healing trauma and affirming one's identity in a complex world.
• The episode concludes with a call to action for increased accessibility and understanding of mental health resources and creative therapies.

LINKS + Referenced in the Episode:

• Wednesdae's website
• Follow Wednesdae @queer.art_therapist on IG
• The Gaia Center: Therapy in Nashville + coaching worldwide
• Follow us @butforealpod and @thegaiacenter on IG
• MOMA
• Fire Road Foods

Welcome to But For Real, a variety show podcast co hosted by two therapists who also happen to be loudmouth feminists.

I'm Valerie, your resident elder millennial child free cat lady.

And I'm Emerson, your resident chronically online Gen Z brat.

And on the show, we'll serve up a new episode every other week that will take you on a wild ride through the cultural zeitgeist, mental health and beyond.

You'll definitely laugh and TBH sometimes, maybe cry a little because this is a silly and serious show.

Buckle up, my friends, and let's get into today's episode.

So today on the episode, we are welcoming an incredible guest, Wednesday.

Reem Ephraq.

Wednesday is an expressive arts therapist, doctoral researcher, professor, practicing artist whose work sits at the intersection of of queer embodiment, complex trauma, and creative healing.

They hold a master's in art therapy and are a PhD candidate at Saybrook University, which is how we met, because so am I. Wednesday has worked in residential to outpatient care, including running a nationally funded eating disorder treatment facility.

Specialties include complex trauma, eating disorders, fat and body liberation.

They have been involved in literally so many things, and thanks to their work and facilitating part of the movement quilt, you can find their art on display at the Baltimore Museum of Art and.

And you can hear them guide you through body liberation and gender in modern art over at moma.

I know.

That was such a lucky.

That was such a lucky thing.

Oh, man, that's insane.

Well, and luck may be a part of it, but it is not the whole story.

Monday.

Welcome to But For Real.

Oh, I'm so happy to be here.

This is so exciting.

We're so excited to see you.

Welcome, welcome.

Well, we're so excited to kind of kick everything off today.

We're a little variety show, so it's segue through all of the things.

Now it's time for our first segment, tea and Crumpets, where we tell you what we can't stop talking about this week.

So, Val, kick us off.

What can you not shut your trap about this time?

Well, I'm excited to plug this one.

And of course, we do not try to get sponsors.

Maybe someday.

So fire road, give me a call if you'd like to sponsor, but I'm coming straight off a coffee meeting with a friend and former colleague of ours who's like, oh shit, my doctor's telling me I have to go vegan.

And I'm like, ha ha.

So I telling him about all the things, but one of them that I was like, wow, I've really been leaning into this a lot recently.

Is called fire road foods.

It's like they arrive all frozen.

Some of them are microwavable.

Some of them are bake in the oven.

And it is just the easiest meal prep.

Yeah.

Just idiot proof.

Very nutritious, very delicious, and I am really loving it.

And it's been one I've stuck with probably the longest.

So I just every month get.

Get more crap.

See in my freezer.

I love that for you.

Love.

Okay, Wednesday, what about you?

Oh, my gosh.

Making art with mannequins.

I think I'm making everybody in my life literally the most insane.

There's one in my closet right now.

There's one sitting here next to me.

My dissertation is on it.

So there's 100 small ones in my closet.

It looks like I've Dexter my entire life.

Like, if you walked in here, you would be like, we need to assess the situation.

This is clinical, literally.

I'm sure it is in many ways, but I'm just really enjoying the process of, like, literally physically deconstructing the human body and then recreating it, like, not just in my own image, but, like, in the images of others in the way that I wish people would look at the complexities of having a body.

And I'm one of those people where, like, my special interest plus my art is usually my work, which also makes people nuts.

But, like, it's super fun for me.

It's super rewarding.

If no one's ever tried it, like, go to gross Victoria secrets, get one of their mannequins, rip that disgusting pink off of it, turn it into something that, like, feels like it's more you, and see how much better you feel about the entire system when you literally get to dismantle it in that way.

It's so much fun.

Whoa.

That's incredible.

I love it.

Also, like, sidebar question.

Have you ever seen the.

Yes.

It's so good.

I mean, it's really bad, but it's so bad.

But it's bad.

Good.

Yeah.

What's yours?

Okay.

I have rediscovered my Polaroid camera that I like, got in, like, middle school and high school.

Hey, why did I ever stop using that?

Like, it's so.

Okay.

I know why I stopped using it because I was a teenager, and I was like, I don't want to have to keep paying for film all the time also, bitch.

That's just what people had to do back in the day, by the way.

So I Bought a bunch of film because I'm going to the UK in a few weeks.

And I was like, I feel like I just want to get pictures, like, little pictures of, like, with my family members that I just haven't seen.

I don't know.

I feel like, just kind of like, more like of this analog media.

Just, like, looking at the little pictures, like, it's just so sweet.

And you just get to put them places, like, in your car or on your bathroom mirror or.

I don't know.

It just, like, feels sweet and just more.

It just feels better than, like, taking a picture on your phone.

I don't know.

I'm just kind of living for it, so I'm excited.

And you can't see yourself to pose.

You just, like, take it and hope for the best.

You can't edit yourself.

Like, it's the most honest.

In fact, in my opinion, Polaroids are, like, the most honest thing you can do, because in a film lab, you can still edit stuff.

You can play with composition.

And now with a Polaroid, no, it's.

Kind of like, what is.

What is?

Like, that moment that you captured is that moment.

You can't change it.

There's just something more, like, raw about it that I just appreciate, and it's just, like, fun.

I'm like, okay, I can collage with these if I want.

Or not.

Yeah.

I went down a whole rabbit hole in the last few days around, like, a bunch of analog stuff.

Yes.

And we might have to do a whole episode on that.

But there's a camera called Camp Snap, and I guess they made it.

It's a screenless digital camera.

Because, like, kids going to summer camp, for instance, are often, like, not allowed to bring a camera with a screen on it.

And so it's screenless, but then you get back home and you, like, plug it in and boom, there it all is.

Now it's, like, not a good camera.

Right.

There's no zoom.

There's no, like, fancy features.

That's kind of the point, though, right?

Yeah.

And so sort of like just going back to a disposable little camera that.

Just a film camera that I stash in my bag.

When I came throughout high school, I'm like, okay, I'm kind of tempted.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's kind of fun.

We need more analog shit.

I'm so sick of screens.

I'm gonna freak.

I'm gonna freak out.

Now it's time for Step into My Office, where you get advice from your favorite professionally qualified, personally peculiar therapist.

So this submission says, dear Val Mn Wednesday I've been in therapy for about two years doing what I describe as pretty standard talk therapy.

And while it's been helpful, I feel like I keep hitting a wall.

I can talk about my trauma, I understand it intellectually.

I can explain my patterns, name my triggers, connect the dots, but nothing feels like it's actually shifting internally or in my life.

I'm intrigued by the idea of art therapy, but it sounds kind of like arts and crafts for sad people.

I'm not really super artistic or creative, and I feel a little embarrassed admitting that, but I also feel stuck.

Is art therapy a legit thing for grownups?

And how do I know if this would actually help me?

Sincerely, Curiously Creative.

Dear Curiously Creative, it is not arts and crafts.

I promise you that.

I've never used a popsicle stick or a pop up in most of my career.

And I really just want to say that is such a standard response for adults.

I think art therapy is really like, well sold for children.

Also, like veterans like the former government paid for art therapists to be in all the VA hospitals for trauma treatment.

I just think like, mainstream wise, we don't see it.

So I'm a big proponent for art therapy for trauma because that's literally what I was certified to do.

And the way that I look at it is like words get stuck because everything else is in your body.

And like, you can't unstick the energy from your body.

You have to physically do something with it.

And so this would be a kind of client where I might do one of the mannequins or a process painting.

Process painting is so much fun because you use the same canvas every session over and over and over.

Like the painting behind me.

I know listeners can't necessarily see it, but that has like 10 layers under it until it got to that place.

And it's this idea that you walk into session, you go intellectually, I understand that, like my relationship with my abuser was complex.

Okay, what colors represent that complexity?

You can only paint with that today.

And then as the images naturally emerge, I assess and we start talking about what does it feel like in your body to visually see that?

And then we might do some movement or some breathing or some dancing or even like some psychodrama where, like, we try to communicate with the artwork as if it's part of the trauma figure itself to really work through those stuck points that like, I think people that are incredibly intelligent often over intellectualized trauma and there needs to be another level that breaks through.

And in my opinion, I think that's one of the best ways to break through, is to engage in that creativity and allow your body to release it.

And honestly, the less creative you are, the better.

Artists are the hardest clients for me to work with because they have all the fine art skills and they just want to do the most beautiful things.

But art therapy is supposed to be messy and gross and ugly and, like, maybe something aesthetically pleasing will come out in the end, but that's not the goal.

The goal is the actual journey that it facilitates.

Oof.

Love that I feel like that's such an important message of.

I remember Caitlin King, one of our colleagues here, one of our art therapists.

Like, one of the first times Caitlin ever brought something to, like, our staff meeting.

And I was doing it and I just kind of kept looking at her like.

And she was like, you don't have to be good at this.

This isn't what this is about.

You don't have to be an artist.

You don't have to come in with a bunch of skills or to know things and to see that that probably benefits you.

The less you know, the better you know, and that it can be more authentic in that way.

But, yeah, for viewers, if you want to watch this episode later, you can see the painting in the back.

And it's so interesting because where I sit, I'm like, it looks like roses.

But I know that's my interpretation, right?

So it's what everybody takes from that is really interesting.

So, yes, listener, not just arts and crafts for Sadies.

There's a lot more in there, so stay tuned.

And now it's time for the dsm.

In our dsm, all varieties of dysfunction, spiraling and meltdowns are welcome.

In this segment, we break down complicated concepts and common misconceptions about mental health, well being, and tell you what we really think.

So, of course, today's episode is our chat with lovely Wednesday, all about their work with expressive arts, somatic, healing, queerness, and whatever else we get on up to.

So first kind of question for you, Wednesday, what is the thread that runs through all of those things for you personally?

Kind of.

How did you find yourself here at this intersection with expressive arts and healing somatically and queerness?

Kind of, how did you land?

Oh, that's a really complicated story, but I'm happy to share it.

So there's like these 15 pieces that, like, that all came together.

So I think for me, I really struggled in high school.

Had a lot of trauma, actually.

I remember this.

I was voted least likely to get into or graduate from college, which, by the way, is such a cruel category.

Why the fuck?

Someone wrote it in just to make a point.

But actually, I thank that human for.

For doing that, because I remember seeing that and being like, wow, people really suck.

They don't understand what it's like to literally be traumatized every single day of your life and not be able to go to school and not be able to do things.

And it wasn't that I wasn't smart or capable.

It's like trauma stops us from everything.

And I had some really wonderful, like, English art theater teachers who kind of like, surrounded me.

And in my final art class, my art teacher was like, well, everyone does a portfolio.

And it doesn't seem like that's like a traditional portfolio for you.

And so she got me the original handbook of art therapy and had me read it and had me translate it into a different kind of portfolio that was really about processing my own feelings.

It was almost like self art therapy, like, unintentionally.

And then I completely stopped making art for three or four years until I, like, I traveled around, had a really hard time, like, in undergrad, got a little older, moved back home, like, finished college, knowing that, like, I wanted to do something with the arts, was volunteering at a pediatric ward and at a domestic violence shelter, and was doing art in both places.

And, like, that part of me just clicked.

I was just like, I want to do this with people literally forever.

How did I never want to do this?

What happened while trauma happened, right?

It interrupted the process.

And then I was one of those people where I took as many art classes as possible to get in, got in, kind of did my degree.

My first job, kind of, like, out of school, was working in eating disorder treatment.

Through that work was learning a lot about my own eating disorder and, like, my own recovery and a lot of the neglect that, like, fat people get within the system.

Like, my eating disorder was very prescribed.

It was very supported by every doctor I'd ever seen.

Weight loss was celebrated, right?

Weight gain was shamed.

And that was like a big thread throughout my life, even from 7 or 8 years old.

And I will say this, my parents tried really hard to just do what doctors told them to do because we didn't know any better.

So I'm like, okay, that was traumatic, but that was at least unintentional.

Trauma was at.

My first job was working with a friend who was also a queer art therapist.

And we're basically told to keep that to ourselves.

Because literally at that point my career was so established, it didn't feel like a risk because this person had really traumatized me into the idea that if you disclose these things about yourself, the field's going to throw you out.

But I had so many queer clients who were struggling with the same thing.

A lot of them, like, had religious trauma.

A lot of the body image stuff isn't what you see in like, the traditional eating disorder workbooks.

It was about gender, it was about sexuality, it was about, like, how do you find a partner in a world where, like, people just assume you're straight, people just assume you're cisgender.

So what do I do?

And I think that, like, all of that at some point in therapy just like, literally exploded.

And I was like, you know, I think I'm just gonna try the me thing for real and see how that feels.

Yeah.

And obviously best thing I've ever done.

Yeah.

Because that's kind of what got me to the work I love doing.

Because once I did it for myself, I was like, I want to do this for everybody.

I just want people to show up into a space with me and go, if I can't be myself anywhere, I can be myself here.

My therapist gets it because they've done that process.

And I know that even if they're not the perfect person for me, that like, my, my journey will be held and respected in these sessions.

And then, right, you start a PhD and you go, oh, I can do research on all of this now.

I can write about all of this now.

It's not just like clinical information that like, lives in your ehr for the rest of your life.

And here we are.

And it's been pretty wild.

Wow.

And what a perfect example of how the.

The truth is, the more that you opt out of the societal expectations and script and you fiercely commit to authenticity and being your whole self.

You're in the MoMA, right?

To the person who said you were not going to get to college, you're in a PhD.

It's just like, wow, that is.

Has been a part of.

And you know, I'm sure it's complicated because I think, you know, especially in early career, I imagine there are times where like some degree of hiding or masking or whatever, like, yep, we have to make it through or whatever.

But yeah, but then like, largely it's.

It's through being unapologetically your whole self.

That is really what's opening these doors for you and like, making you create the best work of your Life, probably.

Oh yeah.

Like clinically, I've never been happier with that part of the work I'm doing.

Like art wise, I feel I'm no longer worried about pretty art.

You know, I think that's something that all, all adults go through.

But like, I think a lot of artists go through that too, where they're like, does my art have value?

And I feel like the more I've divested from does my art have value?

Does my writing have value?

Do I have value?

Everything is just, it's so much easier and it's been such a hard place to get to because our whole world, like everything about how we're trained to be is so capitalist.

If I can't sell my art, it's not worth something.

If no one wants to buy my book, it's not worth something.

If clients aren't banging on the door to pay me 300 a session, then my skills aren't worth something.

But that's not true.

It's fundamentally not true.

Not everything has a price tag.

And yet from such a young age, aren't we all trained at everything as a price tag?

Yeah, and then there's like kind of the ways that, that insidiously shows up in sort of entrepreneurial spaces.

Right?

Because now it's.

Well, yeah, it has a price tag and that price tag is high because.

That's what I'm worth.

And there's this gross, you know, again, just everything is commoditized, right?

Yeah, yeah.

And I'm over here like I guest lectured for a colleague, their class yesterday and they asked me a question about like how to make services accessible to the community I work in.

And I had literally said out loud, I'm like, well, I have a client who pays me a dollar.

And then I was like, I teach full time and I'm in school and I am married to someone who also teaches full time.

There is financial privilege finally in my life on that end, so I recognize that.

But I've always had a free client.

Yeah, I've made sure I've always had a free client or a few low cost clients.

I have clients that will pay full fee.

I have insurance.

Yeah, I know what I'm worth, but I don't think anyone can afford what I'm worth because I think if everyone charged what they were worth, none of us could afford each other or anything in existence.

So instead I'd just rather be like, cool, you're queer and you're poor and you're black and you're disabled and you're Trans.

And no one will work with you because you can only afford a dollar I got you.

Even if I'm not the perfect therapist for you, I'd rather you get treatment than none at all.

And like you said, it's.

If we can find ways to make it work to where your needs are taken care of, then yeah, it opens much more possibility for how we can be flexible.

So you mentioned that the experiences, the memories that we hold internally cannot always be reached by words, by language.

So for people who've maybe not been in many expressive arts or somatic kind of spaces, can you describe, like, what that actually means for that kind of work to touch places that words alone can't go?

What it looks like when someone accesses something through those modalities that talking can't really get to?

I mean, it's super different for everyone, obviously.

The thing that I have enjoyed, the few things I've enjoyed doing the most is like, I have clients where we will, like, art based, right?

Will make tarot card deck.

But the deck reads them.

Like, we don't read the cards.

And the cards speak to them instead of us speaking what they symbolize to us and kind of moving through this process of, like, the things that you need that are in your body.

What is this imagery saying to you?

How is the image the thing that reflects you rather than the other way around?

Right?

Because, you know, in traditional tarot card reading, okay, the cards, like, give us the message, but we read them, we interpret them based on our training.

So what if cards just interpreted us and we didn't get to have that narrative?

I think in that process, it's a very concrete way of making art and having a more narrative therapy discussion without the, like, over intellectualization.

And I find when people do that, you see those small, like, somatic things, like when the shoulders relax, when the jaw unclenches.

Like, then I'm like, ooh, like, we got it in.

Let's see how far we can take this.

I've worked with a lot of clients who are dancers and will literally, like, use dance.

And we'll talk about, like, how certain movements in your nervous system can access things.

Like, my favorite is always the stomach, like, how much anxiety we feel right in that central part of your nervous system.

So how do we do dances that also stretch out that part of our body and let it exist, especially for people that do dance that are in.

That are in fat bodies where, like, often we're trying to shrink that, right?

Tighten it in, put on the leotard with the Spanx, do the thing.

What if you get to move in my office very freely?

What if your nervous system discharges and you start crying?

And that's happened.

I have clients who have danced and they just, they're like, oh my God, I can finally let go.

And they start to cry.

And I love a good cry.

I like really support a good somatic cry.

I think that's really important.

And it's when you cry over nothing and everything at the same time.

It's not, I'm telling you, part of my story.

I'm reliving it.

I feel really sad.

It's.

Oh, that's what relief finally feels like in my chest.

The weight has actually been physically lifted.

I didn't realize that it felt that way all the time because I think we all walk around with feelings in our body and we're so used to, you know, we're all used to feeling like the weight of the world is on our shoulders.

Our jaw is always clenched, right?

We're always waiting for the next thing to happen.

Especially now.

I don't know.

Open Instagram now.

15 Bad things happened within the time that we've just been told.

Talking.

Yes.

How can we not have our bodies constantly in that state?

And then the other thing that I love doing with clients is I like doing a lot of psychodrama where they use their bodies to act out a lot of that traumatic experience in conversation with me.

My favorite people are going to be like, how is that your favorite?

Is when the person is like, I'm ready for you to be my trauma figure and I'm ready to have that conversation.

And usually they'll literally write the scene and the movement that goes along with it.

And my only direction is to give them what they think they finally need, which is usually right.

Accountability and an apology.

That's all I think a lot of people want.

And being able to use movement and breath and sometimes even the art part of making a costume, making a mask to really represent that person and being able to give that release to people is really incredible and like really powerful.

And it really takes like, understanding that like, if the body holds everything, sitting here for an hour isn't doing anything.

That's why, like, even I love it.

Like when a therapist is, I don't wear shoes, like I sit cross legged on my couch.

I'm going to move all the time.

And like, even those little things to mirror for clients, like, move your body and see what happens can be enough.

We don't have to do a big protocol, right?

We don't have to do a whole big thing.

Like, I think sometimes we think we do.

Sometimes it's just as simple as you look uncomfortable sitting in the chair.

Do you want to sit on the floor and take your shoes off?

I love that.

Yeah.

Also me, I'm like, any new client, I'm like, I'm adhd.

I'm always looking around.

I'm drinking a ton of water because a is thirsty.

Sorry, sorry, not sorry.

This is what we do.

So this is what we model.

I really hear that kind of piece of, you know, open Instagram and just kind of see like a barrage of shit that's happened in the past 30 minutes.

I think especially for queer people, people of color.

Yeah, anyone's anyone body who's been, like, policed or pathologized.

How do you think that reclaiming creative expression becomes something bigger than just healing?

And how does it become resistance against kind of like the systems at large?

So I think the first time that I realized that, like, art was actually the answer to everything was so my grandfather is Jewish.

He's no longer with us.

He.

But he lived till he was 102.

So go, Grandpa.

And he was.

He enlisted himself during World War II.

And, you know, as a young Jewish boy who was like a parent of immigrants who were put in an arranged marriage, fun time, like way back when.

Wow.

Was like, I. I want to go like, fas.

Fascism is not only awful, but as a Jewish person, to watch your people and other people that align with, like, Jews go through an entire Holocaust, obviously, is fucking terrifying.

And the stories he would tell me is about, like, knowing the soldiers that, like, saved the artwork, saved the music, like, saved our culture.

And I. I like.

And I've sat with that for years since he told me that story.

And I was like, well, that's why everyone exterminates your art, your music, your fashion first.

If I erase your art, I've erased your entire culture and therefore your entire being.

And so on the opposite end, living in this climate, the more art we make, the more writing we do, the more public we are with it, the more it's like literally the biggest fuck you you could give to the system ever.

Because you will not erase any of us as long as our art is out there.

You can erase me.

You can take me away from this world.

And I am always pseudo prepared for it because hello, America.

But, like, I've made enough art and writing in my life that I know someday on a library shelf, someone will pull out a book, someone will uncover something from some weird digital library somewhere with a painting.

And they'll go, oh, people like me existed.

And I think the more of us that can do, I don't care if your art is bad.

I don't care if you think your poetry sucks.

If we all posted that tomorrow, we could literally dismantle the system one piece of art at a time.

Wow, there's.

There's something in there about the idea of legacy and how legacy doesn't have to mean, oh, I did this one big project that like made this giant impact on the world.

Like, legacy is allowing your authenticity, your culture to continue to exist through that.

Like that art that survives long after you.

So, yeah, that's.

And especially, you know, as child free people too.

Yeah.

We have to construct our own meaning of legacy and what that is.

Yeah, I agree.

I sometimes look at it like all the other queer people out there, all of us that are kind of like childless or like the younger generation.

Like, I'm like, when I was a kid, I knew of one trans adult because they were somebody's aunt that I went to high school with.

No one even talked about like bisexuality or pansexuality.

It was like anything that lived in the gray space we didn't discuss.

And like, now we all get to be the elders for this next generation.

And so I feel like it's also a responsibility to leave that for them, which in a way I'm like, I have a million kids out there.

They just don't know their mind.

Yes.

Oh, man.

Speaking of which, like, I know you've worked in treatment settings both, you know, kids, teens, adults, like the whole thing.

And you know, there's the larger sort of political, sociological systems, but then there's also those systems that you're having to try to work within and do, you know, do trauma work within.

And yet aspects of those systems, whether it's sort of carceral in nature or whatever, you know, just like the individualized treatment planning is not really a thing.

So I'm curious, what was it like to exist as someone who is so committed to authenticity, like for yourself, and I'm sure wanting that for all of the people that you support, but in those types of settings where it's often, you know, antithetical to how they operate,.

I think that where I lucked out at the very last job I had in treatment center.

And now I'm like, I teach.

I'm never going back to that work.

Yeah, I'll consult, but I'm not going to ever work in one again.

Where I was really lucky was I was established enough in, in my career that when I reached out to a colleague and been like, I think I'm ready to come back to treatment and see if I can do A, B and C, they already had on their radar that like queer programming was important.

Cool.

So when I showed up in the work that I did, it just, everything happened to align at the same time.

The problem is often in these systems, staff don't have time to get enough training.

Yeah, they're not paid well enough.

We have zoom rooms with 20 and 30 people in it.

We have people at all different levels of struggling in the same group.

And so obviously the person who struggles the most gets the most attention.

So the system is already set up for us as therapists to essentially be retraumatized, struggle, not have support and not be given the skills we need, then be accused of harming people when we don't have the skills that we need.

When harm is obviously intention versus impact is a thing.

And then I'm like, well, the therapist also has an impact.

The harm is like top down.

Yeah.

And then we're in a system where like when you become a director or a manager, you start hearing about the numbers, the bottom line, the making money the way that you're doing stuff isn't making us money the way that you want to accept clients.

There's liability.

Liability.

And saying that someone's non compliant are my two words that I would literally burn a building down over.

And I would say those are the two things I ran into the most.

Where I was like, I can't do this anymore.

Right.

We have, I have at one point in time had all of these trans clients who are also chronically ill, low income, severely traumatized by the world, and then by past treatment.

And I'm sitting there and I'm like, and you want them to leave in two months or insurance is cutting them off and you don't want to figure this out for them?

Yeah, we're.

We're it for them.

We're literally the only program.

We're it for them.

And you're like, no, thank you.

You're a liability.

When no one can get into residential unless they're rich.

Right.

And impatient and being locked in a facility.

I just, I don't think everybody needs that as much as we think that they do.

Yeah.

So I think I just got to a point where I was like, I'm fighting in a system where the human beings actually agree with me until we get to the people with all the money and then it's, well, if clients don't make the bottom line for us, what are we going to do?

And of course like the managed care of it all is insane because like I'm thinking back to when I worked in residential.

We, at the time I started, we were all fully out of network.

And so I mean, yeah, you had to have a lot of privilege.

They did get some out of network coverage, but still the, the out of pocket portion is significant.

But the quality of care was, was really strong.

And if we said, you know, you're going to be here for at least 30 days, it didn't matter what happened with insurance, they were going to be there for at least 30 days.

Right.

Whereas when they shifted to in network with different providers, like that all changed.

And, and it just sucks that that's, that's where we are is like if we increase accessibility, we often decrease quality of care.

And I remember, you know, thankfully in most of those kinds of settings, you're not the one as the clinician who's having to fight the case to the insurance company.

There's a whole team of utilization review people doing that work.

But one time we had a ur person out and I had to talk to the insurance case manager and I'm crying on the phone as they're, you know, I'm making a clear case why this person needs to still be here.

And they're just, they were so harsh.

Well, why hasn't she this and why hasn't she this and, and I'm just like, Jesus Christ, that's what we're dealing with.

So this is a person.

Yeah.

This isn't just a fucking number or yeah, just like a chip on a.

This is someone's life.

Right.

Their livelihood.

I may or may not, even though this is a big no no in our field, given someone's mom the direct line for their insurance reviewer at the insurance company.

Company.

Yes.

And may or may not have told her that this person is the person making the decision that your kid should go home and die.

And that insurance reviewer may or may not have called me crying because of how harsh the mom was.

And I may or may not be super proud of that and thrilled to this day.

And I don't like making people cry and I know that that's their job, but I'm kind of like, we have people that Are eating disorder specialists supposedly who go work for these companies and your response to a review is if they're not complying with things that you think they should comply with, we should just cut them off?

Yeah.

Did you ever think that recovery is just really hard?

Like, I'm like, isn't it that simple?

It doesn't matter which eating disorder you have or what body you're in.

Like, the whole thing sucks.

Yeah.

And it's if, oh, if they're struggling too much, like they're having behaviors, they're being non compliant, then, well, they're not working hard enough.

But if they're not struggling enough, then they're ready to go home.

I feel like how many times have we all had to stretch the truth a little?

Yeah.

Yes.

Right.

Play up an eating disorder symptom or even a mental health symptom just to get two extra days, just enough to do the managed care step down.

You would cut someone off today and expect me to run four groups, supervise all of my staff and still get them a solid plan?

That's wild.

That's so negligent.

And then it's our fault.

We have to deliver the news.

We have to deal with the emotional fallout and frankly, sometimes the abuse when we don't get to make a choice.

And then I go home and don't sleep because that feels awful.

Yeah.

I can't imagine why you don't want to go back.

Right.

Like, oh, yes.

Should I just end up with these two for time?

Oh, sure.

Okay.

So you had one book that just came out and.

Right.

And it was like next, Next month.

Next month.

Because I remember seeing your post when, when I was in Manhattan and you're like, oh, my book is up on in Times Square.

And I'm like, what?

So amazing.

So that book, you've got two.

Two or three.

Two or three others.

Two others.

Yeah.

And the names are just amazing.

Like skeleton sequins and kin hex and flesh.

Like so cool.

Yeah.

Just curious, like, why now with this like, explosion of creativity and three books.

Coming out, let's get super, super dark.

And I'm gonna say this for everyone listening.

I am safe.

I am mentally well.

I go to therapy.

Right.

I do not want to hurt myself.

And in this political climate.

So a few years ago, I was doxed by Turning Point usa.

What for?

Yeah, for offering to do a free talk at a university with some.

With some friends.

Not even just colleagues, like friends.

And a student who didn't agree with my existence found me and they alerted all these people and it became this whole big thing, and then it became this current presidency.

And so I have that trauma that I've tried to work through, and then this happens.

And I kind of sat down with my partner, and I was like, so I have this nephew.

He's amazing.

He's the light of my life.

He's 4.

And I'm like, so when I'm gone, like, if I was gone tomorrow.

And that's an actual possibility, which I think is the hardest part about all of this, is that is a possibility.

And my partner is an immigrant, so every day we're like, the one of us could go to ICE and the other one could go to the trans concentration camp.

No one wants to talk about.

What do I want to leave behind?

What?

And what did young me wish that they had gotten to accomplish that they didn't?

And I've wanted to be a poet literally since I was 5.

I used to make people nuts with it.

And so I spent all last summer just getting all of my work together and putting my submissions out there.

Like, hundreds of submissions in the space of three months.

And I was kind of prepared for just rejection.

Like, poetry doesn't make money anymore.

Usually you have to have a name or some kind of big background.

And then these two publishing companies were like, we'd really like your submissions.

We'd like to invest in you.

And I, like, didn't know what to do with myself because I got the one poetry book while I was still writing my Queer Expressions, like, academic book and was like, this is wild.

I didn't think this would happen.

And then a month later, I got an email for the second one, and I kind of, like, had this moment where, like, younger me was like, if they get you tomorrow, you did it.

You did it.

You did the thing we've always wanted to do.

I know, and it's sad that, like, the motivation to do that had to be, what if I'm not here?

But again, it kind of goes back to, like, when we talk about art, like, when I'm not here, I need to know that queer art and queer poetry and queer academia was left behind so that the next generation has it.

And honestly.

So if something happens, my nephew remembers, like, I had this human in my life who, even though I wasn't their child, like, literally would do anything for this kid.

If my siblings listened to this, literally, they would tell you, like, yeah, Wednesday would literally do anything.

Drive there right now, no problem.

You want a pony?

And I have the money get you a pony, kid would get you a Pony.

But I just wanted there to be something that someday when he's older, he could be like, they.

They did this work and they dedicated it to me, and that's how important I am.

I was so important.

They went and they did this, and they wanted to make sure that I remember they existed, which makes it for me, like, for me.

Yes, of course this is all exciting, but the most exciting part of this will always be there will be a book on a library shelf somewhere when I'm not here, and someone will pick it up and read it and go, there.

There are people like me.

There were people like me.

And I don't think that's something a lot of us had growing up.

I know.

I'm like, I'm shoving.

You're allowed to cry.

I'm allowed to cry.

It's okay.

We're allowed to have our feelings.

Okay.

All right.

Wednesday, when we kind of conclude our dsm, we kind of give, like, a statement at the end.

So we start with but for real.

And then you kind of sum up just, like, what you need to be so for real about when it comes to anything that you want to close up with.

Tidy up.

So if you can kick us off with but for real, and whatever you.

Want to say, but for real, this system fucking sucks.

So we can burn it down together.

Yes.

Yes.

And now our musical segment.

Now that's what I call okurt, where Emerson and I each share a song with each other each week as representatives of our respective generations.

We tell you a little bit about the song or artist, and then we press pause.

We share the song with each other, and then we come back for our live reactions, and we're capturing it all on a Spotify playlist linked in the show notes for.

For you.

When we have a guest, we prioritize your song.

So Wednesday, from your guest forum, you put the song killing in the name from Rage against the Machine.

So tell us a little bit about why this song for you.

So they wrote it about the Rodney King riots in California, and I can remember not being allowed to watch MTV and sneaking on to watch the awards when they perform this song.

And they fucking just physically destroyed part of the stage.

And as a kid, it was, like, so impressive, incredible to see, and then getting older, like, learning that, like, this song was really about the police and the people that run our system have no problem killing black men, have no problem killing any of us, because a badge is what protects them.

And even more so, like, the history specifically, of white supremacy and the KKK and how that ties into a lot of our legal political system is enmeshed in a way that a lot of us don't understand.

And every time I hear that song, I'm like, oh, what's the next piece of art gonna be?

What's the next piece of fuck you gonna be?

What's the next.

What's the next thing I'm gonna learn to honestly just be a better fucking white person in a world where, like, it doesn't matter how many marginalized identities I have, my whiteness will always save my life in some way.

And I think it was the first time that someone who wasn't an adult or a textbook or a lecture taught me more about intersectionality and taught me more about righteous anger than anything else had.

And, like, who doesn't like hearing a song that literally says, fuck you?

I won't do what you tell me how many of us feel that way in this system?

I think we all need to hear that.

Amen.

I love that.

So we're gonna listen to part of the song, and we'll do a little live reaction so listeners go find it in the playlist, and we're gonna pull it there.

The video quality from the 90s, it's so good.

It's amazing.

It's like the perfect, like, grainy.

Like, ugh.

It just feels.

Also, I remembered.

I don't know where I saw this online, but it was.

Somebody had, like, screen shared.

Someone went on, I don't know, Craigslist or somewhere, and I was like, hey, Sulmac, looking for some other musicians.

I'm interested in starting the band.

Kind of like Rage Against Machine, but, like, conservative.

And it's like, I think you're deeply missing the point.

I think you missed the point entirely.

What are we raging against?

You are the machine.

Damn it.

Yeah.

I forgot how good that song was.

I'm so good.

When I teach multicultural, I actually have a music list students have to listen to, and this is one of that.

And then because they're so much younger than us now, I was like, I need you all to research the history of these songs and why you would use them in session.

And someone always chooses this song.

And it's amazing to watch someone discover this message.

That's incredible.

And now for our last segment of the show.

Welcome to Fire Dumpster Phoenix.

It is rough out there, y', all,.

And we need all the hope we can get.

It's time to go dumpster diving for some positive news and rise from the leftover Happy Meal Ashes together.

I went dumpster diving for some good news, because goddamn, is it dark out there.

So I just love this and I felt so inspired, and I really wish Tennessee would replicate it.

So, Tennessee, if you're listening, let's get to it.

So this I pulled.

They're dying and being taken away from us.

So the public schools in Chicago, they wanted to make all of the student IDs double as a library card.

So who would have thought when you remove barriers such as membership requirements and increase accessibility so these kids can use these cards at all 81 locations across Chicago.

The library's access, of course, increased by 63%, especially among economically disadvantaged students.

The study is now called the 81 Club.

Go look them up.

It's so amazing.

So the students are able to use these cards no matter their age or their zip code.

This is eligible K through 12.

These students can gain access to greater materials and resources, of course, offered by our public libraries.

Because it's not just books, people.

It's not just books.

Even though books are gravely, gravely important.

The program expansion also comes with a new digital access system called sora that will allow educators actually to retrieve research data, ebooks, audiobooks, and classroom learning materials.

So shout out Chicago.

Just really trying to explain.

Expand access here.

And again, Tennessee state government.

You're not listening.

I wish you were, but let's maybe do the same because literacy and education in this state.

Low.

It's frightening.

State frightening.

So let's.

Let's step our up a little bit, y'.

All.

There we go.

Okay, so we're gonna end it up with a few rapid fire questions, a little pew pew.

What is your favorite sweet treat or fun beverage?

Oh, my gosh.

Okay.

Fun beverage.

Always something coffee based, usually with some kind of chocolate something in it.

Favorite sweet treat.

Oh, there's a chocolate store now down the street from where we just moved to, and they make their own peanut butter cups, including vegan ones.

And they are so good.

And it's all adorable little ladies that have been running this place in their family for forever.

It's so cute.

That's so amazing.

Okay, what's a hobby or interest you have that absolutely does not match your vibe on paper?

That's such a good question.

Okay, this is really odd.

I love collecting fake plants.

Okay.

I kill all real things, so I'm surrounded by fake.

This is my fake cactus.

They make me happy.

Valerie is personally here for.

Can we stop shaming fake plants, please.

What I'm saying, they make me happy.

Okay, what would be like a quality, top tier breakfast for you?

Well, lucky for us, I love breakfast food.

Like double chocolate chip pancakes, a lot of, like, mango and pineapple and like papaya on the side, and some really good veggie bacon and like, unlimited iced coffee.

Yum.

Delicious.

Wow.

Okay.

Is there a sound that makes you irrationally angry?

Oh, that's a really good one.

In movies when they shoot off a gun in an enclosed space and it makes that reverb sound, I legit want to throw a remote through the screen.

Why is that necessary?

What's something you're embarrassingly bad at?

So many things.

Despite feeling like I don't need a man or another person to do things, I can't build anything for my life and it's really annoying.

Listen, some of us are just not mechanically inclined.

Okay.

On that task, rabbit.

You know what I mean?

IKEA directions make me violently angry.

Okay, last question.

You're a contestant on a reality show.

Which one would you go on?

And how far do you make it before you get eliminated or quit, if that's a part of it?

Okay.

The Real Housewives.

Yes.

So good.

I can't even tell you.

New Jersey or like Atlanta.

Like, that's my vibe.

Let's say New Jersey.

Teresa Giudice, if you hear this, I love you so much.

I would want to be on a show with you where we would become best friends, but I would probably do something that I think is nice that she doesn't.

And then she would get me fired and Andy would have to call me and tell me I failed as a housewife.

Oh, my God.

Okay, I will be following up with some questions because I've never seen an episode and I feel ready to, but I.

There's where to dive in.

Oh, sure.

This was so much fun.

Thank you so much for doing this.

Just deeply important, meaningful, and also fun.

Yes.

Please also let the people know where they can find you.

Yes.

What stuff is coming out.

And we'll include everything also in the show notes for you Wednesday.

Thanks.

Well, they could find me on my author website, which is literally Wednesday.org.

So that's where all of my art and all of my writing is.

Instagram is queer.art/therapist, I think.

I don't know.

And I'm at Moravian University, so if you're thinking about a master's degree, hit me up and I'll absolutely chat.

Amazing.

And people, Wednesday is with an e at the end instead of a yes.

Amazing.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Of course, this has been another episode.

Of But For Real, hosted by Valerie Martin and Emerson Ryder and edited by Volt Productions.

But For Real is produced by the Gaia center for Embodied Healing.

The Gaia center offers individual couples and.

Group therapy for clients across Tennessee and.

In person in our Nashville office, as.

Well as coaching and other programs for for clients worldwide.

For show notes or to learn more about our work, visit Gaia Center Co or find us on Instagram, the Gaia center and at but4real pod.

But for real is intended for education and entertainment and is not a substitute for mental health treatment.

Also, since we host this podcast primarily as humans rather than clinicians, we are not shy about sharing our opinions here.

Here on everything from snacks and movies.

To politicians and social issues.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode.

See you next time bestie.