....If we do say so ourselves! Literally. For some of us the internal furnace has been lit and it kicks on at any given moment!

Stephanie Bastin-Wells joins me to talk about one of our favorite topics, menopause! Stephanie is a Human Resources leader who discovered while vacationing with girlfriends, just how little American women are talking about this life change and how challenging it is to find resources.

If you were born with a uterus, this WILL happen to you, and it happens right around the time you're at the peak of earning potential and in board rooms. Then come the symptoms that are so wide ranging and while different for everyone, profoundly impactful: brain fog, anxiety, hot flashes, fatigue - just to name a few. No, we haven't lost our mojo but we may be in this stage for 10 years before menopause actually happens. With the next half of our lives in front of us and 20+ years left in the workplace, how do we shift the conversation, adapt in the workplace and create protections for women in this stage of our lives and careers? As Stephanie says so well, "women who are no longer buying tampons are running countries, leading companies and writing award winning novels!"

Stephanie and I talk about just that. Even if you don't have a uterus, you know someone who does, and this conversation also should include YOU!

Lastly, if you're looking for free resources, check out www.heyperry.com

I'm Danielle Huston.

I'm the host of this podcast,

The Checkup.

It's been a little while since I've

been around with an episode,

and that would be because life

has had a multitude of

changes and I

can't find my little tiny headphones

today. So this is the version that

you're going to get because said

headphones are somewhere in some

box.

But I am really

excited to be rolling

back in and sharing some

content with all of you

and I'm very excited about

this episode.

It is something that's close

to my heart and

you know, the more we get into this,

we could probably make a lot of

jokes about it.

But before I get too

deep, I'm going to introduce

Stephanie Bastin Wells.

She is an H.R.

leader and I met her

in Oregon at an H.R.

conference where she was leading

a session called,

and I feel like we should add a drum

roll in here.

She's the hottest woman in the

office, literally,

and by title alone,

I'm like, I really, really need to

go sit and listen to this.

But in reading, of course, the

description and what we were

actually talking about, there's a

lot of us that can relate to this,

and it's menopause.

So, Stephanie, welcome.

Thank you for joining today.

Let's start with maybe

the obvious question.

What was interesting to you

about leading a session

in front of a group of

people talking about menopause?

Hi, Danielle. Thanks for having me

today.

It was it was unexpected,

I think would be the right word.

I, I don't proclaim

to be a medical professional.

I have been in this phase of H.R.

my entire career, which is coming up

sort of 30 years in practice.

And I would

there's a lot of things I'm good at.

Organizational development.

H.R. Leadership.

Yes.

Menopause, hot flashes, brain fog.

Not so much.

I didn't realize that this was going

to be my my new space.

However, having come out of a

trip, I took a trip overseas late

last year.

Yeah, it was late last year.

And I met

up with some friends that were my

age and we were having this

discussion and all of them, it was

very international crowd, but

all of them in their respective

countries have been going through

organizational menopause training.

And I was the only H.R.

person in that conversation, and

I was gobsmacked by the fact

that there was such a thing as

mandatory menopause training.

And so from a professional

point of view, it

was an indicator that this

legislation is coming and it's

something we need to ready ourselves

for from a personal point

of view.

I learned a lot in that conversation

from the trainings that they'd had

and realized how much I didn't know

about the stage in life

perimenopause specifically.

So those years that lead up to

menopause and how

much it impacts us at work

as women.

So coming back to the States,

I decided to dig

in a little bit and do some research

for my own edification.

But also I feel

like there's just a there's a void

of information in this space.

And I'm networked enough at this

stage in my career that I thought I

needed to start making some noise.

So how did it feel to present

in front of a group of people?

It was a bit shocking that I

was the expert in the room because I

feel like I'm just scratching the

surface.

I was very encouraged

by the response that I received in

the session and sense,

and I think it's the beginning of

a whole new chapter for

me and being a bit of a spokesperson

in this space.

It is needed.

And I was also surprised

to see the number of people

in that room and the make up,

because my first inclination

was it's going to be a room full of

women. And I love that.

Great. We can talk about all kinds

of things, right?

But to see the men in the room,

I was really surprised.

And I do think that's a testament to

this really does impact all of us.

If if you have a man in your life,

whether it is a son, a

husband, a brother, whomever,

what we experience in this

part of our life, it certainly

impacts the people around us

and where we can pull out some of

that mystery.

I think the better off

will all be.

So how challenging was your

research? You come back home from

this trip, you're having great

conversation and you

come back here and you get on the

Google. What was that like?

Yeah, it's a really good question.

I think what I was most surprised

about was the inability

to

get certified in this space.

So, you know, as an h.r.

Person, the different

fields of study that i've embarked

on in my career, i've been

able to achieve some credentials

against it. So i'm going to stand

up in front of hundreds and

thousands of people and talk about

something.

I feel like I have a responsibility

to be certified or recognized,

and I couldn't find anything

in America that would allow me

to get the certification without

being a registered medical

professional or a CNE.

So that was fascinating to me.

The other thing that I was,

you know, encouraged by is that this

is trending and Oprah is talking

about menopause.

The New York Times tends to have

an article around menopause in the

workplace every 4 to 6 weeks.

That's a headliner.

It's out there.

It's trending. People are starting

to talk about it,

but it's scattered.

And I think it's

not in front of society

the way that menopausal women

deserve it to be, if you will.

So the research wasn't hard to do.

It was just interesting that it

was my responsibility to pull it

together and to kind of wrap it in a

format that made it relevant for my

peers.

I'm surprised that that thought of

thought leadership isn't already

out there, considering that, you

know, women have been going through

menopause since the beginning of

time and we still

don't have a language for it.

It's still taboo.

It's it's fascinating to me

that lots and lots of soundbites

out there, but no real force

yet of legislation or recognition.

And that gives this population

voice.

So it is really

interesting.

And, you know, I'll share a little

bit of my experience and,

you know, if you'd like to share a

little of yours, I'm sure people

would love to hear it.

I come from women

who had

hysterectomies when they were very,

very young.

And, you know, back when,

you know, doctors would say, well,

if you're having problems there, we

just take everything out.

So none of the women

in my life who

are, you know, that closely

connected and who could share, you

know, some of their experiences and

maybe tell me what I could expect

ever went through menopause,

naturally.

So I really felt like I stumbled

through it. And at first

when I was having

symptoms that were really

noticeable, I thought there

was something really, really wrong

with me.

And I mean, it was 2020,

so there was something wrong with

all of us in some capacity, you

know. But I went

to my doctor and said,

I think I might be having

like an early Alzheimer's onset.

I mean, there's something really,

really wrong with me.

And from there

started this conversation

around, you know,

what it actually could be and maybe

it's perimenopause.

But beyond that, even

blood testing, as I have

discovered, really varies

based on who looks at your results,

how they interpret it, and how

important they think it is

to maybe address your symptoms.

And that seems to be a

really common

theme in the health care

field. Like if it's not a period

or a baby

or something that needs surgery,

seems like there's a lot of answers

out there that like, don't know,

but you're fine. The bloodwork says

you're fine. And I'm saying, I'm not

fine. I am not fine.

So that's that's what started

for me. And I have probably

seen

or different doctors in the last

three years, and only this last

fourth one has really listened,

done a series of bloodwork that

says, Man, he probably should have

been getting some hormone therapy

like two years ago.

And, you know, that is

a recent kind

of a shift and a change that

actually feels hopeful, like maybe I

don't have to be miserable for

perhaps ten years, Right.

Yeah, that's right.

You're absolutely onto it.

And I think the lack of

understanding as

a as a young woman, as

a woman, I

associated hot flashes with

menopause. I will know that I'm

getting close to menopause when I

start having hot flashes.

And that was really about the extent

of it. That was and I heard that

they're miserable.

And I have women in my life who've

been through menopause.

And so I was I was ready for

that.

What I wasn't what I

wasn't prepared for was the brain

fog, especially the brain

fog in the boardroom.

So I am speaking specifically

to career woman and,

you know, trying to to

amplify that perimenopause

happens for most women

between the ages of 45 and 55 years

old.

The women in that chapter of their

life tend to be at the height of

their careers, at the height of

their earning potential.

They're in a position where they

can really influence

change and shift paradigms.

And they can't find their words

and they have brain fog and 90%

of women going through

perimenopause, experience, anxiety,

90%.

It's an incredibly compelling

number.

And so what's happening

is we we know,

are things we've worked all of our

lives to get to where we're at.

And then we're questioning ourselves

and we stand up there and we

actually have the ability to make

the change.

And so that that brain

fog, that cloud, the

cloud that sort of comes over, the

words that just go missing,

I'm not surprised at all that you

went in and thought, you know, it

might be early Alzheimer's because

it's that's we associate that with

Alzheimer's. We don't associate with

that with menopause.

We don't associate bone

pain, foot pain.

I mean, I've learned that you're the

arches of your feet flatten in

menopause. What is that?

How is that?

I didn't know that.

So you have this, like, exacerbated

sort of the way that we walk

changes and all of these things that

are happening to our bodies and

nobody is talking about it.

So all I'm expecting is hot flashes.

What I can tell you is I'm confused.

I'm tired.

I have self-doubt and my body

hurts. Right.

And not associating that

with what my body is actually going

through as a perimenopausal woman.

So I think it's important and

this is where the

sort of talking about this in the

workplace is so important to

me because what's happening

and, you know, I sit in an H.R.

chair.

Where.

We make a lot of leadership change.

It's it's part of the gig, Right.

And I see more and more decisions

being made or conversations

being had around women that have

lost their mojo or they've

lost their spark or they just

don't have that thing anymore.

And recognizing that the women that

they're talking about are in this

chapter of life, and it's very

possibly something that they're

going through physically versus

something they're going through

mentally or in their career.

And I want to start making noise in

this space so that those women feel

as protected as the women

who are starting a family or

the women who are, you know,

moving through a different stage of

a medical event in their life,

because this is as important.

And every human being

who had a uterus at the time of

puberty will go through menopause

at some stage.

And most of them up to about 75%

of them, they're going to have

symptoms.

And those symptoms are going to show

up. And they're all different and

they happen at all different times.

And so being able to be sort

of ready for it or to plan it,

that's not a thing.

It's something we need to recognize

holistically and recognize that it's

a complete chapter of your life.

It's not a one time event.

It's not one year.

Could be ten years of your life

where your body is going through

this change.

So you mentioned

a good point. And I think I

would love for you to share

perimenopause definition versus

menopause definition.

Let's not assume that

everyone who will hear

this might have those

kind of nailed down.

Yeah, I think that's really

important. I mean, the definition of

menopause is the

point in time, 12

months after a woman's last

menstrual cycle or period, that's

menopause. That is sort of a

pinpoint, a date.

Perimenopause are the

years that lead up to that point.

So when your cycle starts

to wane and then eventually stop.

But all of the years, up to ten

years prior to that menopausal

point, that's the perimenopause

chapter where all of these symptoms

and all of this blur is

hitting us and

the lack of recognition.

I didn't know that these were things

until I started the Google search

we talked about earlier and

recognizing how much of my life as

a mom and as a career woman

and as a wife and as a daughter and

all these different roles that I

play and how they're all impacted

by the fact that I am full on

perimenopausal, right?

I had no idea that those things were

correlated. I thought I was just

getting old.

Yes. And some of the things that are

so incredibly helpful are very

challenging when you're experiencing

those symptoms and you're so tired

and you can't think straight.

And the last thing you necessarily

want to do is go take a walk

or go get some exercise because all

you want to do is go in and sleep,

or at least that's been

maybe my experience more.

More than yours, right?

That's right.

So I am

really optimistic and I guess

encouraged by some of the

conversations that I'm

hearing and some

of what I'm seeing in the space

of health care and

employee benefits.

It used to be that there were

a couple of different point

solutions that were very

focused on fertility

pregnancy but then

stopped, you know, like that

was the last possible

hormonal thing, you know, that we

might be challenged with.

And they're starting to roll in

these programs for women who are

perimenopausal and,

you know, they're not very developed

yet. And of course, most of them

don't have a ton of time, you know,

out in the street.

But there is some

availability.

So I think it is absolutely

possible in the very

short future that we're going

to see maybe some

of those things be offered more

as a package and have some

availability.

You've mentioned some other things,

though, too, that you have

encouraged H.R.

leaders to think about, to

incorporate in the work

space. Would you share those with

us?

Yeah, I mean, you're absolutely

right that, you know, benefits

and the employee sort of offering

when it comes to medical care,

it's really important and

ensuring that there is

a network

of professionals who are educated in

this space that can help a woman

with whatever avenue they want to

take for treating their symptoms and

that they're able to find

their way to specialist

guidance.

And if they're not getting it from

the specialists, they choose that

they're empowered to find another

right. So that that is something in

the benefits space that's important

to look out.

But I think a stepping back from

that, the most important thing

an organization can do is just to

create awareness around it.

This is real, this

is important.

And we as an organization understand

that there are considerations that

need to be made for this population

that we are willing to do.

Right. So talking about it,

giving it, giving it language,

if you have an office

space, putting out just literature

and information around menopause,

menopause in the workplace,

maybe different benefits offerings

that your particular organization

might have, and just making them

available to everyone, not

just to your middle aged women, but

to everyone in the workplace so

that they understand what's there.

There's something to be said for

those. So I work in a fully remote

organization and

that doesn't preclude me from having

an uncomfortable moment and

my organization knows that I am

doing medicine.

So I have quite a loud language in

my office. But I'm able just to say,

hold up, I'm having a menopause

moment and it just takes everybody

back or I'll walk away from a

meeting and in 5 minutes I just need

5 minutes. I'll be back and then I

turn off my camera.

I walk away and I either regroup,

right, you know, cool down

or whatever. The thing is, it's

happening for me. And so having

the language and creating awareness

is the first thing.

If you do have physical

office space and people gather, it's

really considering how your office

is set up.

Do you have windows that open?

And if so, do

women going through menopause or

perimenopause?

Do they have access to those

windows? Do they sit closer to

varying heat like they

sit next to the thermostat and it's

the window next to a fan or open

air?

Do they have a place that they can

go?

Most offices have a wellness room or

a lactation room.

Is that something that

perimenopausal women understand they

can use as well to be able

to do the same thing, cool off,

regroup, get their wits together

in front of the board meeting, like

whatever it is that they need to do.

But that's their space too,

that these symptoms are just

as important as the

other symptoms that we use wellness

rooms for. So really just thinking

about how the office is designed and

making sure that it's conducive

to women who who need

help and support,

I think that's an important part of

engagement.

If your company is

a company that has uniforms, right,

do you have an extra

uniform set in every single

size available to

women? Because life happens,

menopause happens,

hot flashes are real, y'all.

They are real.

And a lot of times a clothes change

is necessary.

Leading all of these things that can

happen. Do you have backup supplies

for women so that they have a safe

place to be able to

say, Hey, I need a I need another

set of clothes or something, and

just making sure that you have that.

And if you do have uniforms, do

they breathe? Are you picking, you

know, breathable fabrics, those

sorts of things. So these are just

considerations that I

don't know if they're being thought

about the way that they should be.

And I really encourage organizations

to do that.

And then last but not least,

it's the protection, it's the

policies, it's the handbook.

It's making sure a lot of the

symptoms that we have as

perimenopausal women are actually

covered with some of the legislation

that. It's already out there, but

we're really explicit about it

and making it clear

that going through perimenopause is

not going to preclude somebody from

developing in their career or

growing and just making sure that

speaking about it in black and white

perimenopause is a consideration

in this workplace.

So those sorts of things, I think

beyond just what benefits

are available for employees

and a lot of those don't cost any

money.

It's just a matter of just stepping

back and considering what's being

offered.

Right.

All very good points.

And I think the more

women like you

and I or other women who start

feeling comfortable talking about

this in a workplace, too,

is really the starting

point.

I had an incident,

an incident, a menopause moment

a year or so ago, and I was

supposed to be in the office for

a meeting.

And, you know, it was with

some leadership that was in town.

And about the time I was about to

walk out the door, I feel

the furnace flip on.

And, you know, and

it was one of those moments, too,

where I like I feel it and I

know what's going to happen.

And I had to change my clothes

before I left.

You know, it was one of those I

can't I can't get in the car like

this and I

need to make myself off.

And all of the way

into the office, I was just dreading

what, you know, what am I going to

say? And I didn't want to lie,

right? Like, oh, you know, I

whatever excuse that I could make

up. So I walked in

the room, two other

men in it, and I said, Hey,

guys, I'm really sorry

I'm late, but I had a hot flash

and I had to change my clothes

before I left.

And bless their heart, I mean, the

look on their face at first was

like, you know, a little

uncomfortable, not sure what

to say. And and then

the one the one man says,

That does sound really terrible.

Don't worry about it.

Glad you're here.

So which I. Which I thought was

probably the best possible response.

But, you know, how often

are we in situations where we

feel like we can just talk about

it and say it's what is happening?

And I'm certainly leaning

more toward the side of I want

to talk about this with everybody.

That's right. And the more we talk

about it, the less taboo it will

become. And so,

you know, I hate to say it's on us

and it's kind of on us

to show up and to be loud and proud

about the chapter that we're in to

talk about how it's impacting

us, and then to celebrate the

fact that we're getting through it,

We just need some moments.

The thing about perimenopause is

it's not just going to remove you

from life for ten years.

It's something that we live to where

we work. What's the word I'm looking

for? We learn

to sort of live through, adapt

through, adjust

and just go find whatever.

That's right.

Finding a way to talk about what's

happening to your body, why does it

matter? And making sure that you're

seen and heard and protected in that

time, right?

Yes, there is.

And of course, the change.

Very important that

will force the change.

People like you out there starting

to make change in your sphere

and influence the space

that you're in.

And I hope the ripple effect

is deep and wide

and starts much bigger,

broader conversations

around this part of life.

I agree. I mean, nobody ever

congratulated you for going through

menopause, right?

I mean, we have all of this

attention to the other life stages

that we go through.

So you transition from a girl to a

woman.

You get your first bra, you have

your first kiss, you have your first

period. You know, people throw you

parties and they give you presents,

right?

Then you go through menopause.

It's been totally hidden.

It's a completely taboo conversation

that my mom didn't talk to me about.

Like women haven't discussed it

because it's been so embarrassing.

Yeah. And it's, you know, we're on

the cusp of something really

interesting.

One of the things that I know I said

when I spoke and you saw me at the

conference was, you know, women

who are no longer shopping for

tampons are out there running

countries. They're running

businesses.

They're acting in Hollywood

movies. They're writing

award winning books.

They're they're crashing through

these glass ceilings.

We spent a third of our life

post-menopausal.

So this is just a chapter.

It doesn't stop anything.

It shouldn't it shouldn't cost us

the success and the development that

we have in our life.

And we have a responsibility

to make this transition more

comfortable for everyone, for the

people who are going through it and

the people who are witnessing

the change. And I

think that it's going to be really

trans transformational over the next

few years as the legislation comes

in and starts to back us up

and will really embellish

and promote women in leadership and

protect them at this really pivotal

time when they might be questioning

themselves. So I'm

really passionate about this because

it's it's a real opportunity space

that we have an opportunity to

change.

I am with you.

I believe in it.

And I, I love gravitating

toward women to who will openly

talk about it, because that feels

like this mystery.

And I'm still trying to solve it.

And I'm trying to, you know, like,

hey, if you want to talk about it,

can you tell me what worked for you?

Or, you know, do you sometimes just

want to rip someone's face off for

no good reason other than

just like there was a moment

where all of a sudden.

You just felt so irritated.

And these are all some of the

mysteries that I have.

You know, the more I can unravel

them, the more they also feel

manageable, right?

Like, there's nothing wrong

with me.

There's a there's a church and.

There are community spaces for women

to to lean into as well.

One of my favorites is it's

called HeyPerry.com,

and it's a network of

women in menopausal perimenopausal

spaces, just asking the questions.

Is this normal?

Am I okay?

What do you do to be able to cope

with this particular thing?

You know, are you losing your hair

to these sorts of things?

And all of these women come in and

they're like, It got you.

Like, Yes.

And it's totally normal and

you'll get through it. And here's

some remedies you might want to

consider and lots of platforms

in that space. So I encourage

women to find each other to keep

that dialog going as well so they

feel, you know, normal.

Yeah.

Keep the conversation going.

A village of women is powerful.

So, you know, I

would say cheers to shattering

some more glass ceilings

and pushing some momentum along

here to get some change

and some visibility

and some different ways so that

women can own this part of their

lives a little differently to, you

know, maybe my daughter won't be

talking about it like this when

she when she reaches

that point in her life.

That would be amazing.

A percent.

Yeah.

So if other

H.R. leaders want to connect with

you or someone

else who is really interested

in this topic and maybe

would like to have you speak or

brainstorm or write some

legislation.

Where's where's the best place they

can reach you?

Probably through LinkedIn.

It's just under my name.

Stephanie Bastien Hyphen Wells.

I am pretty

well connected on there and I think

a lot of people have sort of found

me and invited me in through their

I'm, I'm not published anywhere.

I'm just starting to.

Get.

I'm starting this

movement, if you will.

I'm just making sure especially h.r.

Leaders. But the business leaders

understand that this is real,

this is important, and we

we need to be paying attention.

But if anybody's interested, i'm

more than happy to engage in this

conversation.

I think it's really important.

Love it. I agree with you.

And this is going

to be live on

World Menopause Awareness

Day. And I had no idea that was

even a day. I probably

never even noticed it.

Yeah, October.

Never noticed that it was on the

calendar until it was, you know, a

little more closer to home.

So.

So hopefully, whether you

are watching this on

October 18th or

afterward, we encourage

you to ask questions in your

own organization,

have your own set

of courage and

you know your own pride around this

part of life.

Joy, join some of your your

female colleagues, perhaps

as well in starting to make

some of the movement to influence

your own space and sphere.

So until the next time.

Thank you for listening and

joining us today and

we'll see you next time here

on the checkup.

Take good care.