The episode titled "Epiphanies, Lingering Questions, and a Hymn" serves as a culminating reflection for Season 1 of "Your Matter Matters." In this concluding installment, hosts Pastor Will Rose and Pastor Thomas Johnston engage in a contemplative dialogue, revisiting the profound insights gleaned throughout the season while also addressing the lingering inquiries that remain. A significant highlight of the episode is the introduction of a new hymn, "From Wonders to Wonders," (by Mary Louise Bringle and Benjamin Brody) which was both funded by and requested by our sponsors to bridge the realms of faith and science within worship. Joining the discussion is Megan Mash, Director of Worship and Music at Will's church, who elucidates the hymn's creation process and its thematic resonance. This episode encapsulates the essence of the series, emphasizing the harmonious intersection of faith and scientific inquiry while inviting listeners to continue exploring these vital conversations.

The final episode of the inaugural season of "Your Matter Matters" serves as a contemplative and retrospective examination of the thematic journey undertaken by the hosts, Pastor Will Rose and Pastor Thomas Johnston. In this episode, the duo engages in a profound reflection on the enlightening conversations they have had throughout the season, addressing the interplay between faith and science. They highlight pivotal discussions on topics such as evolution, cosmology, artificial intelligence, and the existential questions surrounding pain and suffering, all while demonstrating the significance of maintaining a dialogue that embraces both realms rather than establishing a dichotomy.

The conversation is enriched further by the introduction of a new hymn, "From Wonders to Wonders," which embodies the season's essence of intertwining faith and science through worship. This hymn, commissioned by the podcast's sponsors, reflects the thoughtful integration of scientific understanding within the realm of spiritual expression. Megan Mash, the Worship Director at Holy Trinity Lutheran Church, joins the hosts to reveal the creative process behind the hymn and its intended message, emphasizing the capacity of music to shape faith and inspire awe. The episode concludes with the hymn itself, encapsulating the season's journey as both a celebration and a call to continued exploration of the mysteries that bind faith and science together.

Takeaways:

1. In this final episode of season one, we reflect on our journey through faith and science, emphasizing the importance of embracing both rather than choosing one over the other.
2. The newly commissioned hymn, "From Wonders to Wonders," (by Mary Louise Bringle and Benjamin Brody) embodies the integration of faith and science, showcasing how worship can evolve with contemporary understandings.
3. Our conversation with guest Megan Mash highlights the significance of hymnody in deepening faith and fostering communal exploration of complex questions.
4. Throughout the season, we have encountered enlightening discussions that challenge our perspectives and invite us to remain curious about the interplay between science and theology.
5. As we conclude, we remind our listeners that their matter matters, encouraging them to carry forward the dialogue between faith and science in their communities.
6. The hymn serves as a culmination of our explorations, encapsulating the essence of wonder and wisdom that characterizes our quest for understanding in both faith and science.

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Your Matter Matters is sponsored by the Virginia Casey and Michael Peeler Fund of the North Carolina Synod and the Lutheran Alliance for Faith, Science and Technology https://www.luthscitech.org/ in association with the Anazao Podcast Network.

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Check out merch for this podcast and discover other podcasts on the Anazao Podcast Network on our website:

https://anazao-podcasts-shop.fourthwall.com/

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Check out Joshua K Smith's book, "Robot Theology: Old Questions through New Media":

https://a.co/d/hIgKQpM

.

Be sure to look into Andrew Root's book, "Exploding Stars, Dead Dinosaurs, and Zombies":

https://a.co/d/4iqYhbw

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Read "Love and Quasars" by Paul Wallace:

https://a.co/d/gKVzARB

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Check out Paul Wallace's other book, "Stars Beneath Us: Finding God in the Evolving Cosmos":

https://a.co/d/3opMHck

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Read "Would You Baptize an Extraterrestrial?" by Guy Consolmagno SJ and Paul Mueller:

https://a.co/d/bVOEOkr

.

Check out the Wonderology podcast:

https://wonderologyshow.com/episodes/

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Check out BioLogos:

https://biologos.org/about-us#our-history

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Lutheran Alliance for Faith, Science and Technology

https://www.luthscitech.org/

.

North Carolina ELCA Synod

https://nclutheran.org/

.

Science for the Church

https://scienceforthechurch.org/

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The artwork for this podcast was created by Taylor Thomas.

The music from this podcast is courtesy of Dan Koch.

This show is edited and produced by Joshua Noel.

Foreign.

Welcome to your Matter Matters, a podcast that explores the questions and curiosities around faith and science.

In this podcast, we will not only explore some of the big questions and topics in the conversations between faith and science, but we also embrace the and of faith and science.

Too often people are presented with an either or choice.

You have to choose science or faith.

Faith or science.

We hope these conversations and explorations will give you permission to not feel pressured to choose one or the other, but rather to embrace the both and and to know that you are not alone in pondering and wrestling with these important questions.

We believe God made the material world, so therefore God loves matter.

God loves science.

God loves you and me and your neighbor.

We are made of matter, and we matter to God and to one another.

Our hope is that you can listen to these conversations and gather with friends and the community of faith that you are a part of.

Use this podcast series as a Sunday school class or a small group study group.

Discuss together what we talked about and keep the conversation moving forward.

That's how we learn and grow.

This podcast is brought to you by the Lutheran alliance for Faith, Science and Technology, the North Carolina Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, and a grant from the North Carolina Synod, Michael Peeler and Virginia Casey Fund.

Follow us on Instagram and let us know what inspires awe and wonder within you.

From wonder to wisdom, akin in our questing, we've sought understanding for eons untold through reason and reverence to faith and to science.

From puzzle to pattern, God's marvel unfolds.

On today's episode, we explore our past season of way that we were enlightened, in ways that we were challenged, and also providing ways for you to continue the conversation.

Our guest today is Megan Mash, the Director of Worship at Holy Trinity Lutheran Church and Lutheran Campus Ministry at Chapel Hill, North Carolina.

So, yep, Thomas, we did it.

Here we are.

We're at the end of this.

Can you believe it will?

I can't believe we are at the end.

I do have a question for you, though.

Okay.

It's the question I asked you at our very first episode.

After all we've listened to now.

Is it faith?

Is it science?

Is it faith or science?

Or is it faith and science?

You know, I like that word.

And yeah, that's where we are.

I think.

I think we have learned that in this series.

We've.

We haven't.

We haven't lost it.

Coming full circle.

Yeah, we're not giving up the.

And here at the final end, as we've gone and had some of these conversations with some, some really deep thinkers and some of our favorite people who are in the conversation and dialogue with faith and science.

We're not going to drop the ant.

It's not either or we're still going to stick with it.

We're going to double down.

They both can hang out together in the same room and have some good, healthy, fun conversations.

And that's what we've done.

We've, we've had fun.

We've had stimulating conversations.

We've, it's been awe inspiring.

We've had epiphanies.

Thomas, you and I have read a lot of books about this.

We've had a lot of dialogue with this.

We've been in this game for a long time and I can, I can still say I still love it and I can also say that I still learned something new.

There's a couple things that kind of blew my mind or, or help shed a new light on some questions that I've thought about for long time.

And so yeah, let's, let's recap and kind of explore where we've been and, and where we're going from here.

Just a short recap.

So we've done, we've done some episodes wrapped around the five big questions around faith and science.

Of course, our other questions out there, there's a lot of nuance.

There's, once you have one question, you try to answer it, then there's like 12 more questions that pop up.

But we started the series with an intro of why we're doing this by sitting down with some of the steering committee of the alliance, the Lutheran alliance for Faith, Science and Technology.

So they got us going.

We talked about awe and wonder and how that can be common ground when it comes to having this conversation.

We talked about evolution with Jim Stump.

We talked about cosmology and astro theology with Dr. Ted Peters.

That was a lot of fun.

Talked about AI and tech with Dr. Anne Forst and, and then we talked about pain and suffering in the Book of Job with Catherine Schrefer Decker, Schiffer Decker.

You know, there you go, Catherine.

I'll get one of, I'll get it right one of these days, I promise.

And then, and then we talked about the science of Healthcare with Dr. Emily Smith.

And I really loved all these conversations.

I thought they're really deep, caring people who've done a lot of work in these areas and care about them a lot.

They have a lot of resources and books and just their posture to these questions is really a role model for Us in terms of being good listeners, being curious and being authentic in and how they look at these questions and wrestle with them themselves.

So I think, I think we had a really good time.

And Thomas, I'm wondering for you what stood out for you when it comes to some of these conversations.

I had to go back in my notes.

I'm one of those, if I hear something, I want to write it down.

Though it was hard to actually get everything written down that these people said because it was, it was like a pebble dropped in a still lake.

It just rippled out.

And this, I know this is going to be on audio, but I'm making my hands moving out like the waves.

Yeah, it's hard to like find like that one epiphany.

But I would say one of the conversations that stuck out to probably I would say the one with Emily Smith, when talking about the science of public health that invited me to go talk to my public health director and talking about really the intersection of faith and science and if something were on the horizon, what does response look like and what are ways faith based organizations, churches, can work together with public health to care for our neighbor.

So I really enjoyed that conversation with Emily Smith.

And I would say for the second one, the conversation artificial intelligence, I walked away with like a blown mind.

I was like, I have a lot of questions, I have a lot of epiphanies.

The one thing though that Dr. Force said that really stuck out to me is these large language models that are used a lot by mega corporations, banks and all of that.

They're stupid.

In short, that artificial intelligence isn't really all it's cracked up to be.

And in fact, it's doing more damage than good, particularly for the environment.

So those are the two conversations that are like, huh, I have more questions, but I want to dive deeper and then talk to others in the field.

And what their response was, it was Also good for Dr. Forrest is we had someone from another synod join us in the conversation.

Someone who's using it in his congregation and he's using it for his work, which beforehand will Michael and I had a really interesting conversation as three pastors who use AI somewhat use AI and is the Luddite in the group.

It.

Invited deeper and richer and more robust conversation, especially as artificial intelligence continues to be fleshed out more in our society.

Will, what about you?

What were those epiphany moments you had over the last season?

Yeah, I kind of sharing what you to build on what you just shared.

I do think our conversation around AI was Helpful for me because again reiterated that it's, it's a tool to be used and it's how we use this tool that's important.

It's not like it's gonna become sentient and become like the Terminator movie and kill all people, you know, tomorrow or, or next week, you know.

But she was like, look, they're only as smart as what we give it power to be.

Like we're the ones in charge.

We drive it.

And these large language models or, or big data and information, it's just, it's a tool that we use.

And, and yeah, a hammer is, is a great tool for building house to harm a neighbor, smash my neighbor's face in.

And so AI, how it's being used, I think is the ethical question that, that we need to continue to think through.

And I loved her conversation around embodiment.

Like she's done a lot of work around robots and embodiment.

It's not just, we're not just information and data in our brains, but we also have a body and that affects our consciousness.

And so the same way that goes around kind of consciousness or sentient, it will.

Will robots ever become sentient and self aware?

Not without embodiment, not without some other things when it comes to AI.

So that was helpful for me to hear her share some of those things.

It's not like as good or bad as how we use it in the same way with money, other tools, the Internet, whatever.

In and of itself, it's not evil or bad, but it is how we use it.

And us being entangled with everyone or connected with everyone, what we do does matter in terms of the environment when it comes to AI.

Well, you also raise up a good point.

Is the tool that we use it.

And Dr. Force in her conversation talked about how some of her students, to enhance her critical thinking skills, program the AI to be in dialogue on their paper, which I found that fascinating.

And also, also she gave us a book recommendation.

Yeah.

Which again, it's good for.

It was good for our guests to provide resources that are helpful, especially if we don't want to read like a science book, which we're going to get to later.

But if we wanted to dive into like the realm of fiction or fantasy, they're addressing the same questions, but just through a different lens.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You guys all know, if you know me, know, I like to geek out on things, but often those things we geek out on or sci fi or superhero whatever are addressing the same questions about, like, what does it mean to be human and how do we use our gifts out in the world on, on that kind of stuff.

So that kind of speculative fiction is, is really helpful.

I'll build also with, with Emily Smith.

I think I geek out on the big cosmology, the big picture, what's going on outside in space, the vast huge universe and galaxies and stars and if there's aliens out there.

But I think what, what Dr. Smith did is help me also ground us here, that what we do in science isn't just us looking to space and speculating if their life is out there or big heady topics and ideas about wrapping our head around, you know, quantum physics and the models of, of cosmology, but also viruses and bacteria.

And what we do and how we treat our neighbor here has an effect on each other one on one in our neighborhoods and our communities.

And what we do in this country can also affect what happens in another country in terms of their, their health and, and how they're thriving.

And so I loved how we look at the big, big, big, huge picture in the univers go look at the very, very, very small and how that too matters and how we live our lives and how we treat our neighbor as well.

So that was helpful for me.

You know, often we look at the universe and be like, ah, do I matter in this universe is so big.

Humans are so small.

But, but yeah, there's really small particles and quantum particles and viruses and bacteria, and maybe, maybe humans aren't, aren't all that small.

We're kind of caught in the middle between infinitely small and infinitely big.

And so we're there and they all tie together.

They're all part of one another.

Well, Will, it's interesting you say that, because on my Facebook feed, BioLogos had a thing out there talking about the vastness of the universe and on their blurb, on their image, does that mean we matter less?

And I'm like, again, it's all connected.

Maybe systematic ecology can do he she it for a book study for your next podcast.

Yeah, I wrote it down.

I wrote it down on my notes.

I will say another, another.

Of course, I loved our conversation with Dr. Te Peters.

He's a, he's a legend when it comes into his work with faith and science, but also in, in Lutheran circles and in seminaries and in teaching and, and I tell you, the one quote that he said that is just living rent free in my head that blew me away is when we're talking about Genesis 1 and how it relates to the cosmos and cosmology.

We, we talked about that with Jim Stump too, in terms of evolution and how we look at the creation stories and, and myths.

But when he said that maybe Genesis 1 isn't where we've been but where we are headed, blew me away.

It's like maybe, maybe that's not the, the ultimate beginning, but that, that where we're headed is, is what matters most that build towards when God says it is good or, or Sabbath or a rest is.

Yes, it's talking about our origins.

It's talking about the birth of all things, the beginning of all things.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, but it's also a place where, where we're headed.

So that, that for me was made a big impact on how I not only see that story, but also how I live my story and think about.

The cosmos that I want to add to that, but through the lens of Jim Stump because again, all of these are connected.

What I appreciate about Jim Stump a his book, but also the conversation is the concept of the sacred chain, how we're coming from the cosmos above us and the fact that we're made of stardust, which was an interesting conversation with Ted Peters.

But then how does then that translate to how we came to be as humans also?

And this segues into the, this segues into lingering questions.

What's next?

What is next?

What is that next link on that sacred chain?

The conversation with Jim Stumpped shaped my All Saints sermon, my sermon for All Saints Day, because we tend not to think of the communion of saints as a chain.

But if we look back in the history of the church and even back into the Old Testament, everything is continuous and the same with human evolution.

It goes to whatever.

It goes to what that next step will be.

Yeah, we're all linked together.

Right?

We're linked together in this chain.

You could use the word entanglement, but I'll put a pause on that since I use it so much.

But we're linked together.

But I think God's not done with creation yet.

We're still a part of it, an ongoing process.

And so I think that's helpful too is that part of this faith and science conversation is that I.

Let's be real here.

The reality is, is that the huge kind of breakthrough discoveries in science isn't going to stop the questions that, that emerge is that the questions aren't going anywhere.

The process, we're not going to stop learning.

I think we've arrived and oh, we've learned all things.

It's going to keep going.

It's going to open up more, more questions.

So the big questions aren't, aren't going.

And just like science isn't going to go away, religion, faith and spirituality isn't going anywhere.

It's not going away.

So how can we have these conversations where we're in this sacred chain of still creation, still being a process of becoming what it's called to be, and we're a part of it.

So why shouldn't science and faith sit down at the table and have some healthy dialogue with this?

And I think that's what we've tried to do in this podcast and try to open up models and ways for people to have these conversations with some really deep and smart and authentic people who share these same questions that we do.

And will you bring up an interesting point?

And this came out a lot in the Jim Stump interview.

There has to be a degree of humility when we enter into these conversations.

The humility, intellectual curiosity, or just genuine curiosity.

Where do you also meet people where they are?

Yep, yep.

And, and, and Bruce lifted that up in the first episode too, when we talked about awe and wonder, curiosity being common ground.

But, but also we talked about, I think a lingering question that I have is, or what I would want to go in deeper with if we get another season or other episode or people can do on their own is, is the difference between science and scientism?

You know, is this like there is, there's a science that is true and helps us grow, but then a scientism that can be like, oh, we're going to write this is going to be the answer to all our woes and going to be the answer of all things and, and going to solve all problems.

The scientism that you lift up as the end all and, and sits on top of the hill.

Religion does the same.

It's done in a lot.

Fundamentalism, kind of that fear of the unknown or, or not wanting to lose power and privilege, then that's where the resistance and the fight between faith and science has occur.

Religion and science both want to kind of be king of the hill, want to fight to the end.

Who's going to have the most power and influence when it comes to reality and how we live on the earth.

But I think that that is something for us to be aware of.

It's not that we're resistant or hesitant towards science itself, but maybe scientism that can sometimes come across as being a little bit too full of itself, that we Become skeptical of or use our critical minds in thinking about.

They balance each other out.

Religion purifies science and science adds to religion, but they don't cancel each other out in common American discourse.

They fight.

One of the questions that we talked about was, well, why aren't people having more conversations on Christians who are scientists or scientists who are Christian?

And our culture treats them as mutually exclusive.

Yet based on this entire season, there's an integration between the two.

One of my lingering questions from this season is a Can Luddite survive?

Maybe.

Maybe.

Recap what Luddites means.

How would you define Lydia in case someone's like, oh, what did Thomas just call me?

Or him or you?

Luddites are.

Primitive is like the wrong word.

But are very, not, not totally keen on the whole new technologies.

Think your Amish, think your old school Mennonites horse and buggies.

What?

Surprisingly, coming back from Indiana on Highway 70, they're a horse and buggies.

The Amish ride them on the highway.

Very surprising.

Or they ride them on the medium.

But.

But that's neither here nor there.

Luddites are mostly anti technology.

Primitive.

Primitive is a wrong way to say, basically.

Not big on technology.

They want a simple life.

That's the fastest way to say it.

They want a simple life.

Technology complicates things.

So an example, someone might have a flip phone as opposed to, I know this is an audio podcast or an iPhone.

People would rather have something simple.

Not a lot of buttons, not a lot of work, not a lot of hassle.

Something simple.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I, and I think there is, I think we're seeing.

It's a valid question and critique to say, just because we can do it, should we do it?

It goes with AI, it goes with social media, it goes with technology.

Some people want to say, like, you know what, maybe I shouldn't scroll my phone all day.

Maybe these certain apps, certain things that were created, were created.

A way to keep people addicted and glued in so they can make money off your back and those kinds of things.

So that kind of skeptic skepticism towards, you know, technology as a means by which to control others or, or to commodify others or, or oppress others or use them as a way to, to get rich.

I think, I think that's, that's a valid critique when it comes to like, not just faith and science, but also some ethical questions that comes in the why and the how should.

Should we use it?

So I think that faith and science a lot and, and it's valid.

I think it's valid.

But.

But religion is not safe with that either.

I mean, yeah, there might be some tech and things that are trying to use things to manipulate people.

The church has been, you know, can commodify people or use people for.

For certain aspects of power or an abuse of money.

Th.

Those kinds of things are there for both.

So humans are going to human no matter what.

Which led me to the other part.

When we talked about pain and suffering and in the book of Job with Catherine, like we.

We that that's why we added this A not just like, oh, what.

How does Genesis 1 relate to evolution or cosmology or public health or AI and tech?

But there's also the question.

One of the top questions that are always lifted up when people talk about faith and science or why they're resistant to being a part of institutional religion is the problem of pain and suffering.

That's something.

All right.

If God is so loving and just and if God is so powerful, then why is there still pain and suffering in this world?

Science addresses it some in terms of, of, you know, it has a purpose and natural selection, but also, well, how does that affect our faith?

How does it affect how we understand God or our neighbor?

So I think that's a part of this too.

It's not just a big heady quantum equations that we bump up against when it comes to science, but also like real human experience matters.

Exactly.

Which surprisingly, that's a lot of the questions I get both in the church but also in public.

I mean, I'm no stranger wearing my collar to a dinner at my local restaurant.

And that people ask questions more often than not.

I'm usually showing up with a book and usually that book invites conference.

Well, the, the book I'm currently reading and it kind of fits perfectly in the Pain and Suffering is Kate Ballard's memoir.

Everything Happens for the Reason and Other Lies I've Learned Other Lies I've Loved tackles that question.

And I think one of my.

I have a lot of lingering questions.

There's no shortage of them.

In addition to will Luddite ism persist Also though, I think the question is will the question stop?

And based on our conversations, that's.

I told.

I told someone.

That's a really good question.

Yeah.

People have been wrestling this for years.

People have been wrestling with this question for thousands of years.

Sometimes in those moments, we want answers.

Right?

We want, we want certainty.

As our host, as our, as our guest Catherine Shiverdecker pointed out, you're not going to get that job.

Really doesn't lend itself to providing answers.

It leaves you with more questions than it does answers.

And what I love about that is that it gives us permission to sit with the questions.

It gives us permission to be like, if I'm just as confused or if I don't have the answers, am I alone in this?

Am I just dumb?

He's like, no, no, no, no.

That it's, it's a part of the human experience.

I think it gives it.

I'm so thankful that Job is a book in the canon of Scripture because it gives you permission to say, you know, all that other stuff that people are saying.

You think you have friends are just quoting scripture at you like the book of Proverbs.

And that doesn't make sense at this time and season in my life.

Then you have permission to be like, nope, I call BS on that.

And that's basically what.

What Job did.

And so, and, and God does show up, but not in a way that answers all the questions or solves all.

All the mystery.

It just is.

Leans in harder into the mystery.

And, and I think as, as we posture ourselves and, and lift up ways that the church and your faith community can posture itself towards these big questions around faith and science.

And there maybe, maybe take that, take that to heart.

Let, let's transition a little bit here in terms of, like, before we get in, sharing some resources and then introduce Megan and, and talk about this, this hymn that we commissioned.

I do want to lift up, like our, My context In, In Chapel Hill, we have a lot of students, grad students, professors and scientists.

So they're used to asking a lot of questions.

They're used to wrestling with the questions.

They have a lot of experience with that.

When they bring it to our faith community, we have a couple options there.

What, you know, could we.

Should.

Should I just deny it?

Should I get defensive?

Should I put up a front?

Should I ignore it?

Or do I embrace it and put on good listening ears and embrace the curiosity and the questions?

So, you know, what are some healthy approaches is, we've shared the stats are there.

The stats are alarming.

There's concern that people are leaving the church and that the church is shrinking or institutional religion or the mainstream religions are, mainline religions and Christian denomination are shrinking.

And one of the reasons they lift up in those stats or reasons is because the church is averse or resistance to science and change.

And so what are some approaches you could have?

Well, one is don't make science the enemy or, or a competitor.

If you, if you put them up as as one of your enemies that you have to battle against, then, then of course it's going to come across as, yeah, yeah, it's a fight rather than a conversation.

And so I would also say don't get defensive.

Be open to the big questions.

Be curious.

You're not alone in your question.

I guarantee you whatever question you've, you have, you're not the first or last person to ask it it.

And then there are lots of resources and people that model genuine authentic faith and are, and that are honest with their doubts and, and their questions and, and that both can hang out together.

So that's, that's my kind of plea out there for those who are, who are listening to this.

Don't, don't make science the enemy or your main competitor.

Don't get defensive.

Put on your listening ear.

Be more curious about the question than trying to rush to an answer to solve things from, from the get go.

And even if you're not in the research triangle or have quantum physicists as a member of your church, I guarantee you you do have a chemistry teacher or a dentist or someone who's an engineer or someone who works on a farm that's dealing with everyday practical science and math each and every day.

We're all using it, so how can we use that?

And then think about how that illumines our own faith and mystery and awe and wonder.

Take a walk outside.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't mean to be coy with that answer, but, but take a walk outside.

I'm in rural ish, North Carolina, about an hour north of Charlotte, hour and a half west of Chapel Hill.

I can walk on my back patio and I can see the Big Dipper.

I can see the Little Dipper.

I can see the North Star.

I can see the moon as clear as day, Little light pollution as opposed to Chapel Hill that's littered with lights.

Littered with lights in the Tar Heels.

We'll just say that.

Yeah.

But that's just to say take a walk outside.

And if you're near a city, there are maps that can tell you where the light pollution is.

And drive an hour, two hours north of that and go look at the stars.

Yeah, go look at the stars.

And then, and then pull out your Bible app or your Bible and read Psalm 8 and know that.

You know, for thousands of years people have been looking at the stars wondering what am I in this universe?

What's my place?

Place?

Let's, let's talk about resources a little bit.

Let's lift up some of our favorite resources and then then we'll talk with with Megan about ways that you know that, that we've integrated faith asides to our worship experience.

But a couple things I want to, I want to lift up in terms of, yeah, we're not the first one to have a faith and science podcast, but what we hope is that you can use this in small groups to spark some conversations in your own community and, and we don't have all the answers, but maybe this sparked some awe and wonder in, in you and resonated with you and some questions you have and then talk about it in community.

It's not meant to be done alone.

Go go find a small group and some friends and family and community to do it.

But top resources of course, the the Luther alliance for Faith, Science and Technology website blogs.

They're a sponsor of of this podcast.

Also we lift up biologos.

Very great resource.

One of the top in.

In the.

In the faith and science conversation.

Science for the church is another one that I've worked with and we'll talk about a little bit more about that, about how they've helped us.

And then there's a, a series of.

Of books.

There's so much that's when we first started getting to Faith in Science.

I was like, wow, there are so many books who are having honest and cool conversations around this.

It's not just the, the, the fundamentalists on each side or the scientists, scientism on one side, the fundamentalists on the other going at it.

There's some people who really have some healthy conversations.

So, Thomas, maybe lift up.

What's a book that you would want to share with our listeners that that made an impact with you?

I will do.

I. I will gladly give those.

I'm a book person bibliophile.

I got too many books to my name.

I want to lift up though, Starting with Psalm 8, as Will mentioned, that's actually how I got involved with the Lutheran alliance for Faith Science and Technology.

Holy Trinity Lutheran Chapel Hill had a blog going.

I sent it to Will.

I also happened to write it for a class which made it all work and then submitted that to the Alliance.

And that was my introduction into the wider faith and science conversation.

I'm gonna lift up Emily Smith's book first the Science of the Good Samaritan Thinking Bigger About Loving Our Neighbors.

Really good book.

Really easy read.

She does a lot with what was life.

What was life like during the pandemic?

And she experienced it from both sides.

People in support of the mandates and people against it and how that, that broke down as well.

Yeah.

Nice.

Yeah, I'll lift up and we'll kind of go back and forth just a little bit.

I would.

The one that got us started here that I can't recommend enough is one of my favorite faith and science books is would you baptize an extraterrestrial and other questions from the astronomers inbox at the Vatican Observatory.

Really, really wonderful book about lifting up some of the big questions around faith and science.

And we got two Catholic priests who are also astrophysicists who are, who wrest with those questions.

And, and man, I love that book so much.

So I couldn't recommend that enough.

So I'm going to add on to that.

I believe it was in this podcast episode.

Yes.

There's a podcast series called Hark the stories behind our favorite Christmas Carols.

And on the the episode We Three Kings, Maggie Van Dorn of America magazine actually interviews one of the authors from the Vatican Observatory.

Yes.

Well, I'll just add on to that.

Especially for those who may not be familiar with the Magi, there's a book called.

There's a book by Eric Vanden Eichel, the Magi, who they are, how they've been remembered, and why they still fascinate in the church.

Here we call this the Epiphany Day, the day Jesus was revealed to the world.

The Magi, the wise men, not sure how many there were.

They were astrologers, they were astronomers, they followed the star, they read the sky.

So I recommend anything that relates to the Magi because you're going to get a lot into a lot again of that relationship between faith and science and culture.

Yeah, it's a perfect faith and science story or cosmos there in the scriptures, things.

What's that?

So I'm lift up real quick because I want to talk with, with Megan a couple books.

I want to lift up Joshua K. Smith's book Robot Theology, Old Questions through new Media.

Fantastic conversation or book around AI and robots and, and how that relates to our faith.

He does a great job there.

Andy Root did a book called Exploding Stars, Dead Dinosaurs and Zombies and really kind of shares the story of a youth director who, you know, get some questions about faith and science and, and how they can relate to one another and does it in a really neat way of, of storytelling but also diving into some faith and science conversations and then love and quasars and astrophysicists reconciles faith and science is a, it's a great book as well.

I think you have another book by him as well.

Yeah, it's called Stars by Us Finding God in the Evolving Cosmos.

In this book, he actually works through and Stars Beneath Us.

Paul Wallace, who also wrote Love and Quasars, walks through the Book of Job.

And it is wonderful.

I read this book for a class in college on ministry, faith and science, which was wonderful.

We actually had a professor from Southern Seminary, the Lutheran Theological Southern Seminary at Lenora Ryan University come and do a presentation on faith and science and astrophysics.

And the other book I have, it's called Baby Dinosaurs on the Ark, the Bible and Modern Science and the Trouble of Making It All Fit, which I probably could have touched on this book when we did not when I didn't know his Ark and confirmation.

But, you know, and, and I will share that there's a lot with, with the Luther alliance for Faith Science Technology.

We're in the midst of working on a statement in support of science and the public good.

And we want to make this kind of ecumenical statement, working with some of our ecumenical partners, because we know that science and research is being undermined and defunded because there are those out there who feel threatened by it.

And so therefore, how do we support good, authentic science and for the public good?

And so the Lutheran alliance for Faith Science Technology want to just make a statement and say, yeah, we're pro science, we're science positive, and there's ways to do this.

So keep a lookout for that later down the road.

Thomas, we have a guest.

Let's talk about ways we can also integrate this into our worship experience and not just our heads, but also our hearts and how we experience God and worship.

Thank you, Will.

We are delighted to have Megan Mash, the director of worship at Holy Trinity Lutheran Church and Lutheran Campus Ministry in Chapel Hill, North Carolina.

Megan, thank you for joining us.

Thank you for having me.

So when we have a guest, we always ask the question, what is your origin story?

What led you to do what you do?

Yeah, when I was in middle school, we started going to a United Methodist church regularly.

And before that I had already been very involved in piano lessons and music just was sort of part of my innate being and couldn't imagine not doing music every day of my life.

And so went and got some, some degrees in music.

And through the course of getting those degrees and some internships and stuff, I was felt this call to do music ministry full time and to just explore the ways that we can use music and worship, especially hymnody, to grow people's faith and how important that is to what we do.

In addition to just like spoken words, whether it's a sermon or scriptures, how music can sort of integrate and enhance and lead people to ask different questions and that kind of stuff.

Thank you.

And as Martin Luther said, the next thing to the gospel is music.

So, Megan, I understand that Holy Trinity had a hymn commissioned to talking about how faith and science come together.

I've listened to the hymn.

I've read the lyrics.

I loved it.

I was sitting in my car with my.

With my phone plugged in, and I pulled up the MP3 that Will sent, and I'm just like, I love this.

So I texted Will right after.

I'm like, will, can I use this for an evening prayer?

He said, sure.

Sadly, in North.

Sadly in my part of North Carolina, it's been very cloudy, so it kind of.

There are no stars out, but it's like, you know, there's beauty in the.

In a 6am Cloud.

There is beauty in that.

So, Megan, tell me.

Tell me about this hymn, like, how it all came to be.

And would you mind reading the lyrics as well as.

What.

What did the author mean when she put these verses together?

Yeah, absolutely.

So I've been an active member of the Hymn Society in the United States and Canada for 15 years now.

And it's a really great ecumenical group of human beings who love congregational singing.

And part of what we.

Our faith statement says is that we believe the holy act of singing together shapes faith.

And so that's definitely part of where this is coming from.

And so I had the privilege of attending these conferences and got to meet Mary Louise Brinkle, who goes by Mel, and she's one of the big hymn writers.

And so when you come in as, like, just postgraduate student, you get to meet these people.

You're starstruck of getting to meet all of them.

And so it was just fun to get to meet Mel.

And when Will got this grant from Science of the Church that he was like, oh, hey, we're going to do these worship experiments.

What do you think?

You know, maybe we could get a hymn?

And I was like, well, we could get a hymn.

I'm like, I already have an idea of who we're going to ask.

Mel is definitely one of the people who is very critically thinking about faith and science and reflects that in what she does.

She teaches at Brevard College.

She's a professor, philosophy and religion professor over there.

She's also a fellow of the Hymn Society, which is sort of one of our highest honors.

So she's been doing hymnody for a long time.

And, and is very, very good at her craft.

So, so we're going to jump in and read a couple stanzas.

Yeah, just real, real fast.

Like I, I, I think again, like the, the origin story of this is science for the church not only created and has like a standard model like Bible study that you can sit down and explore some of these big questions, but they were like, not only just like sit around and talk about it and read the Bible or read a, like a, a heady academic book, but what are some of the experiences we have in our communities?

So we did some science and faith worship experiments in the fact that like our outdoor worship, we would go and look at like microscopes and look at things real, really small and then look at the stars and be like, oh, and then read the creation story and look at that.

But also like oftentimes in our worship experiences, we're very beloved hymns are using language from hundreds and thousands of years ago where they were speaking to their experience and how they saw the universe.

Well, why, why aren't there hymns that speak to how we understand that what science has shared with us over the last 50, 75 years, a lot has been learned in the last 50, 75, 100 years and how the cosmos works.

So why don't we shape some poetry and some theopoetics and himity around how we understand the universe from a scientific perspective and also talk about our experience with a God who's behind it all.

So, so that was part of the reasoning behind this is we, you don't have to like virtue signal, but you can, you know, in your worship, in your sermons, in your prayers, in, in your hymn, in, in your liturgy speak, use scientific language of how we understand the universe operates along with a God of grace and, and wonder and mercy through, through how we understand God to be through, through the lens of Christ.

So I think the two can go hand in hand.

So that was the challenge and that's where, where this hymn came from.

Hey Will.

Earth and All Stars.

It is.

That's one of, that's up there is up there.

Creator of the stars of night.

If you want to sing in 7th century, chant plain song.

There you go.

There you go.

So, so yeah, spoiler alert, folks.

If you keep listening, the hymn's going to be at the end of this episode.

You get to hear it sung.

But I, I, I wanted Megan to also share some of the lyrics spoken and also some of the exegetical work of what, what was behind it, why this was put together.

So go for it.

Megan.

Great.

So I'll do some reading and then.

Then talk about a little bit.

So the first stanza.

From wonder to wisdom Akin in our questing we've sought understanding for eons untold through reason and reverence to faith and to science.

From puzzle to pattern, God's marvel unfolds.

Each moon and each planet in circadian splendor revolves to an order that humbles and awes.

The stars in their courses by balance of forces reveal hidden figures of elegant laws.

Both geode and genome attest to God's glory.

An intricate story, a delicate whole.

As part of this mystery, our gifts and our history engage us to play a responsible role.

Oh God, our creator, our truth and our teacher.

We join every creature in manifold ways with reason and reverence in faith and in science akin in thanksgiving to offer our praise.

And like.

One of the things I love about just thinking through this text and listening to you guys at the beginning of this episode and talking about this sort of macro and micro ness of all of creation and cosmology.

I mean, it's all jam packed in here and how we are important and we have our responsible role to play in creation, even, you know, though we're not as big as the entire cosmos.

But before Megan, that was just the rhythm and timber and candor that you had.

I was very much following along.

I was also imagining what are the guitar chords that can go with this song?

If you could put it.

The.

The part that really stuck out to me was that first.

Like that first measure from wonder to wisdom, akin in our questing and then that end in faith and in science, akin in thanksgiving to offer our praise.

I think that beginning and end summarizes exactly what this project was.

Both not just the hymn, but your matter matters.

The conversations we have had.

It's a quest.

It's.

It's a quest.

And we've had a lot of side quests on the major quest, but it's akin in our questing and thanksgiving we offer our.

To offer our praise again.

Will, it goes back to what you said, Psalm 8.

Yeah, yeah.

There's precedent for that.

It's biblical.

Cool.

Yeah, yeah.

Megan, share some of what.

Why.

Why she chose some of this.

I know she.

She wrote.

We had her come present this to us in a.

In a hymn.

Sing a while back when she first.

When this hymn first debuted and she wrote some things up of why she chose the particular words that she chose.

Yeah, yeah.

So some of the stuff I'm going to kind of be reading from her, her work that she wrote One of the things she writes in response to why she wrote this as part of its grant responsibilities.

So the grant that we had gotten from science for the church, the congregation agreed to engage in discussions about how science might enhance the church's faith and life, including its worship.

The hymn text From Wonder to Wisdom grows out of that commission and aims to contribute to the conversation.

I think Thomas, like you notice this rhythm that's there.

And so for Mel, one of the first things she did when in writing this text was to find a tune that would go with it.

So she didn't even have the words, but she was trying to find a tune that she wanted to write to.

And so she picked a tune by Benjamin Brody, contemporary composer Benjamin Brody.

He is the director of Church Music Studies at Whitworth University in Spokane, Washington.

And she picked this tune because she liked this lilting feel that it had.

And also how the first beginning of the measure, it starts off with a longer note with some shorter notes that follow.

So it gives that sort of rhythm automatically with the words that she's using there.

And so in sort of that brainstorming that she initially did, came up with the phrases from wonder to wisdom and puzzle to pattern.

And she uses these alliterations, as you noticed, throughout the text, she writes these two phrases.

The fact that both religion and science begin in a spirit of wonderment before the mysteries of the world, a wonderment that gives rise to contemporary quests for comprehension.

The wonder to wisdom and puzzle to pattern phrases also follow an alliterative structure that appears throughout the text as a way of mirroring the orderliness that both faith and science seek and celebrate.

So she's really intentional, sort of about.

About that.

Another deliberate parallel to the akin in our questing and akin in Thanksgiving were very important parallels to continue with that faith and science idea that she.

She draws on Stanza 2, then takes us to sort of that celestial realm with the moon and the planets.

And she says that the inspiration from this actually comes from an interview that she had heard with Francis S. Collins, the former director of the Human Genome Project, about why he believes religion and science are compatible.

She also quotes Eugene Wigner, a Nobel Laureate in physics.

Some stuff by Eugene that also related to the second stanza says, even the stars in their courses remain in their places.

So despite speak by a balance of forces, the gravitational pull from the center of the galaxy in which they reside, precisely offset by the outside push created by their orbital motion.

So it's just been like reading this stuff with how she thought about this text is Just so fascinating.

She writes, the fact that this elegance both humbles and Oz suggests that scientific understanding has the potential to enhance chance rather than diminish religious reverence.

Yeah, it's just.

Yeah, it's just so fascinating.

And that's kind of the point too, as we said, is they can enhance and enrich.

And I think one of the deepest, richest part of what's enriched my ministry the most is leaning in harder with the conversation with faith and science.

And that's because not only does it deepen my awe and wonder and mystery of the universe, but also helps me understand where other humans like me on this quest and adventure in the world.

They have similar questions and thoughts and curiosities and.

And pains and.

And.

And fears.

And so it.

It helps me resonate with them and their experience.

So I think that.

I love that this.

We've talked about faith and science and some, you know, deep conversations around these questions with some great guests, but here we have a hymn that articulates, articulates in song and poetry, what the true experience is behind it all.

I love that.

Yeah.

And like, so that Stanza 3 is really kind of where some of that comes in about being more specific about, like, our experiences and where our role is and how our matter matters in all of this.

And she talks again about, you know, inspiration to use the word genome from Francis S. Collins and pairing it with geode and how, like, pairing them side by side gives us a different perspect perspectives of things.

You know, the geodes look like they're ordinary rocks on the outside, but when you break them open, there's, like, so much stuff inside of it that's so cool.

And then, you know, genomes just trying to figure out all of that chemical makeup and how things are differ and all of that.

That stuff was important for her to have in there.

And she talks about, you know, genes and like, she's right.

Even though as humans, we share over 50% of our genes with fruit flies and mice and over 98% with chimpanzees, there is nonetheless something privileged about our place in the created order.

It is not a place of superiority or dominance, as we too often assumed, but rather one of special accountability.

Our gifts and our history engage us to play a responsible role.

One of the important topics that's been coming up in hymn society conferences is how are we singing about creation, kids?

And so that's.

She's kind of touching some on this too there, you know, how are we singing about how we're caring for the creation instead of Just, oh, for the beauty of the earth.

It's so great.

It's beautiful.

Like, what is our role in our responsibility to be accountable for how we're managing it and how we're treating it, how we're destroying it.

In many ways.

That goes back to something Catherine Schiffer Decker said.

We're talking about Job is humans aren't the pinnacle, so we probably shouldn't stop.

We should probably start stop treating ourselves as such.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was again, verse, stanza three was just genome, the geode, the.

An intricate story, a delicate whole.

Where does the story continue next?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so then she wraps up our hymn by directly addressing God, our creator, our truth, and our teacher.

I love how she uses that word, teacher, because I think so often we forget about how God is teaching us.

Us, she writes, recognizing again as in the prior stanza, that we are but one part of this world's intricate story, a delicate whole.

We join every creature, each of whom attest in its own fashion to the glory of God.

And then she closes her writing on this hymn about.

She says a physicist and Anglican priest John Polkinghorne has professed, I need the binocular approach of science and religion if I am to do any sort of job.

Justice to the deep and rich reality of the world in which we live.

From wonder to wisdom honors a comparable approach.

Binocular approach.

I love that.

And, and just to share like Pokinghorn, like, we didn't lift up any.

He has many books.

He's a legend when it comes to faith and science.

And so if you want to go deeper into issues and questions around faith and science, grab anything by poking horn and you will not be disappointed.

Pointed, fantastic resource, fantastic author, fantastic person when it comes to faith inside.

So I love that she references him when she's writing her hymn about some of the legendary people in the conversation creating this, this poem.

I have his, his Lenten study.

Yeah, he wrote, he wrote a study for Lent.

I'm like, all right, Yep.

Might take a deep dive through this.

There you go.

Cool.

Megan, thanks for, for sharing that.

And, and we, we gathered after one of our Advent midweek worship services and brought in choir and other members from the church.

And, and I even, I even stepped up, even though I'm not like, necessarily the best singer in the world.

But I, I, I, I, I hopped in there and so we sang this hymn and recorded it and we're gonna put it at the end of this episode so that this will close us out.

That hear in this particular series is you will, you will, you will hear this hymn which will sing us out out there to do more conversation around this.

Megan, I was just sharing that, that we sang this hymn as in here at church.

And, and that's going to be our, our closing hymn to send us out our, our prayer in poem.

Send us out into the world.

So thanks, thanks for being here and sharing some of this.

Anything else you want to chime in about with this?

Yeah, I just want to add that, you know, the HIM is available for usage to use it.

We just ask that you make sure that you report it with one license.

But it is, it is available for, for anybody who wants to use it.

That's right.

If you want to use that or, or want some of the story behind it, just reach out to us.

You can email me, message me, find me on the interwebs on our Instagram page.

Your matter matters like subscribe.

Follow for more updates on what we're doing when it comes to that.

And so yeah, here we are, we're wrapping this up, Thomas and, and I will say that, you know, whether we keep doing this and have more episodes or there's a season two, we don't know.

But I hope that our listeners will continue down the road and keep this conversation going, that you will have a posture of open openness and curiosity and awe and wonder and that, and that you'll be open to the deep and big questions.

Because again, science isn't going anywhere.

Faith, religion, spirituality isn't going anywhere.

Hopefully they're moving.

So hopefully they're going somewhere.

In fact, that they're moving forward and having deeper conversations with each other, but they're not going away.

And so how can you enter the conversation and posture and model for others how to have a healthy conversation around this?

So we hope that you'll keep the conversation going and, and that when you look in the mirror you'll say, yep, my matter matters.

When you look at your friend and your neighbor in your church, you'll go, you know what their matter matters, that you're driving down the highway and someone's going too slow in the left hand lane, you go, you know what, even though I'm irritated right now, their matter still matters, you know, regardless of the flaws that we have out there in the world.

So yeah, I really appreciate this project and, and Thomas urging me and sparking the idea and I hope that you'll share it with, with friends out there in the world.

Well, this was a joint effort.

This was a joint effort.

It was absolutely, we, we geeked out.

We nerded out.

We asked questions.

We still have questions.

And who knows?

There might be a season two.

Hey, if they can make a Spaceballs 2, there can be a season two of your matter matters.

True.

That is.

That is so true.

And.

And there's plenty more questions and authors and people that I want to talk to, and so we hope that happens.

But.

But yeah, regardless of whether we keep doing this or not, there.

There's so much out there that.

That is.

It's not going away.

So as we close out here, Megan, I'm gonna have you unmute because we're gonna all say this together before we.

We hear this hymn.

We're.

We're gonna.

We're gonna.

We're gonna say something together and see if we can do it in unison.

You're a choir director, so we'll see if we can do this or not.

Thomas, anything else you wanna.

I was gonna say say will.

Remember Will.

Will.

Your matter.

Matter.

Matter.

Oh, we.

Okay, here we go.

We're gonna close out this way on the count of three.

One, two, three.

Then we're gonna say it together, all right?

And remember your Maddie.

That's what we're gonna say.

So.

Kathy.

One, two, three.

And remember, remember.

And remember your.

Matter.

Look at it.

We nailed it there.

We.

This mystery, our kids and our.

Responsible.

O God.

Jesus.