H: The hardest part about preparing for this particular interview was deciding on the scope because, man, oh man, the places we could go. But Alexis, what you and I decided to focus on was something that you have a great deal of experience with, and that is how to use JOY as an executive functioning hack. Now, before we start unpacking this, I just want to cue you up by saying that I agree with you a thousand percent. Joy isn't optional for neurodivergent brains. But not everybody knows how to systematically build it into their business. Most of us just wait for it to show up like the muse. So help us work towards more JOY in our business and life by first talking about the neuroscience. What do we need to know for neurospicy brains in particular?
G: That's a great, great question. I think many of us who identify as neurospicy definitely feel pulled towards novelty, towards interest driven passions. Sometimes we can't control what pulls our interests. So I've just found over the years I have come to accept that that is a large part of how I'm motivated. And I think I used to spend a lot more time kind of apologizing for it or downplaying it because of some of the context I was in, particularly in the academic world and the tech world, some places where a certain amount of seriousness and decorum was like, expected. So, but now I'm just kind of full flying the JOY flag and it's come to work for me so I'm into it.
H: It's really unfortunate that academia, especially in engineering and in tech, where there's so much potential for innovation that there isn't as much acceptance for brains that need to work differently. I would have thought that would be better by now.
G: It's true. Yeah and I think I was pretty lucky. I did my PhD work at a place called the MIT Media Lab, which was probably the most creative and joyful academic context I could have found. I did drop out of a different PhD program before starting that one that was kind of the opposite. But that program really was all about creativity and bringing people together from different fields and there was a lot of play in experimentation. But then when it came time to package up your research for the world, just the broader academic world and, you know, writing papers and the way you have to present yourself, that was always a challenge.
H: I hope the time will come in our lifetime, certainly in your lifetime where positive emotion is not seen as a reward, just like many people think confidence is the reward you get for a job well done. I think confidence is a decision and a habit, just like you and I agree that positive emotion, joy in particular, isn't the reward, it's the fuel. And it is what unlocks the creativity that drives so much of the work that you do and so much of the innovation in the world. Let's talk a little bit about, like, how dopamine is kind of the gatekeeper for task initiation. I mean, in my experience, I cannot start something unless it offers some level of interest, novelty, or challenge. It's neurochemistry, it's not willpower. But what else is going on besides dopamine that requires us to have interest and novelty in order to get going?
G: I think maybe people find dopamine in all sorts of different ways. Like, what's dopamine to me is different from you, different from all neurospicy brains. But I think for me, a lot of where my dopamine comes from tends to be around social connection and things of that nature. So that's one way that I've been able to do some of the stuff in my business that feels a little bit more boring is basically to think about that it's like not just my own joy that I'm enabling, but that of everybody else I'm working with too. So we try to build, like a really positive, joyful, creative team culture at Focused Space.
And if me making sure I get payroll done on time enables us all to keep the party going, then maybe I've tricked my brain into finding some dopamine there. But yeah, so it's not always about my own joy and fun, but kind of the social context of joy for all of us, because that just I love being around people that feel creative and motivated that, you know, has a big impact on me. So I'm trying to create that, help create that culture for all of us.
H: Yeah. And something you've written and talked about a lot, Alexis, is that, you know, for those of us who are already working remotely before the COVID pandemic, we weren't necessarily thriving. We were just making it work. And then tons and tons of people kind of got forced home who didn't have the experience of being able to manage their mood, energy, and motivation without the social context of the workplace, whether they vibed with their co-workers or not. I think that was part of the origin story of Focused Space, wasn't it?
G: Yeah, absolutely. Our company was kind of born out of the early pandemic days, everyone kind of working at home. And there was a lot of things about the world that were obviously, and that's true today, very scary, very demoralizing, very stressful. So not only were people, you know, experiencing all of those negative emotions and stressors, but they were doing it in a lot of cases alone, going it alone. And I think what was really interesting about that period and everything we've kind of been working on since is that it did make us all question, like, things about the office that weren't working well for people either. I mean, yes, it was a place where you could reliably get some social contact.
Again, like maybe your co-workers aren't your favorite people, but at least you practice saying hello to some people every day that's beneficial. But the way that offices work have worked historically, like, are not the best for neurospicy brains either. So one thing that I think has come out of this, you know, the radical change in work over the past few years is an opportunity to rethink all those things. Like what does working at home look like, but also what do offices of the future look like if they're meant to be more supportive to more people? So I am glad that we've the shakeup gave us some opportunities to rethink things.
H: Unfortunately, most human beings need some sort of crisis to deal with the things that they're not happy about. And this is certainly something that's affected millions and millions of people. But you have a long history of seeking joy and creativity and connection and community long before you co-founded Focused Space, long before the pandemic. In fact, it's been for some time you have been designing products, programs, productivity, experiences, and genuine immersive experiences that bring about connection, creativity, and joy. Is there something, I mean, you know, I'm a former shrink, so I have to is there something in your childhood, like, how does a person center their life around this because it's pretty unusual, as I'm sure you know.
G: I have always been somebody who's created a family out of friends. I've been that, like a chosen family type of person since high school, really. So I've always seen opportunity for really deep relationships that are outside of the home and outside of the nuclear family. That's always been really important to me. I don't think that I necessarily saw joy as being in, like, an organizing principle, my work, until I got to my PhD, because actually, I don't think I told you this, but my PhD thesis, my dissertation was actually about using joy as a tool for technology design and for social change.
And the way that I kind of came to think about joy was the philosopher Spinoza kind of talks about joy this way, but it's like talking about joy as not being the same as happiness. So it's actually not always like a wholesale positive emotion, like, just be happy that's definitely not what I think at all. He sort of talks about joy having sharp edges, and joy is actually more about the capacity to act than about a positive emotion, which really resonated with me because obviously, when I was doing my dissertation was a time this was the during finishing it, during the pandemic times, major social upheaval, many people going through very serious challenges and traumas.
And so the way that kind of I came to think of joy is like, you know, when we all feel diminished and we can't do anything about the conditions that we're in, that is sadness, that is not joy. So joy doesn't have to be fully positive to be important. It's more about, like, what can I do about this? Do I feel alive? It's more about that. So I think of it in a little bit more nuanced way. And I think, like, we're all living through a pretty crazy time right now. And so, again, just I'm not saying, like, just be happy, everybody every day is fun, especially not as a business owner. That's absolutely not true at all. So it's just it's a little deeper than that for me, they can kind of coexist with challenges. It can coexist with challenges, too.
H: That is so well, not, as you say, more nuanced, Alexis, but and this conversation is so timely, but also I love that this philosopher says joy can have sharp edges, because I don't know about you, but when I've gone through moments of despondency and despair, like I do quite frequently these days. It doesn't really resonate with me when someone says, well, just find something to be happy about or just be positive, as though you can just kind of slap a smiley face on top of things and that will instantly make you feel better now.
A lot more neuroscience than I do, but I know enough to know that the human brain naturally pays more attention to the negative as an evolutionary and survival mechanism, it is wired in there. And the neurospicy brain needs more stimulation and different types of stimulation in order to provoke action toward a goal or reward. But the sharp edges part that really makes me curious to know more because I think that makes it more doable and more accessible as a concept. Even for someone that is feeling anything but joyful right now.
G: Absolutely.
H: I'm wondering what you think is there like a minimum viable unit? You know, we often talk about the minimum viable product or that's a very popular thing in tech in particular. But is there such a thing as a minimum viable unit of joy? Let's just talk about you personally that will actually move the needle. Because as a business owner, you know this, I know this. The people that come and body double in Focused Space definitely know this. That it's hard to get ourselves to do things that we don't find interesting, that we don't find rewarding, that we find tedious or meaningless or boring, is there such a thing? And of course it's going to be different for different people. Is there such a thing as a minimum viable unit of joy that will improve our ability to do things we find challenging or hard?
G: I love that. Well, I'm a big, like maybe this resonates with other neurospicy folks, but a big collector of things. And I haven't shown you like the rest of my apartment, but...
H: I’m big on that, you've got the dopamine decor going on, baby.
G: So anyway, there's that sort of thing, but related to work, I basically I screen throughout the day. I'm like screenshotting anything about the work that makes me feel good about the work. So we actually, you know, as a team, we're a fully remote company and so we organize, we communicate on a platform called Discord. And so we have a channel on Discord that's just called Focused Love. And so we just like, like anytime somebody leaves like a positive comment on something we post online or a member says something really great in a session we'll screenshot it just to share internally with our team.
And I kind of find those as like little minimum viable units of joy because it's like a reminder of why we're doing this and why it's matters to people. Fortunately, we don't have enough content for a focused hate channel, that's great. But, yeah, I find that practice, it's like, it keeps me engaged to collect that stuff. And I hope that sharing it and it's actually not just me putting stuff in that channel. It's like our whole team of team practice now. So I think that we're kind of doing that for each other because it's hard work to build a company, and it's hard work on the part of, like, you know, we're almost like 16 people or so, so we sort of have to.
We give each other a little dopamine, too. Yeah so that's one practice that really helps for work. And then it reminds you, again, like you were saying, I think a lot of the times our brains are all brains are wired to focus on the negative stuff to protect ourselves. And so having a habit where you, like, collect the good stuff so that anytime, if I'm feeling, like, super down or bummed, I just scroll up that channel, I'm like, oh, actually, there's a lot of good things here. It's been really helpful.
H: You know, it's funny you say, oh, we don't need to talk about how your apartment is decorated, but actually, I'm not gonna have you take us on a little tour, because I'm, of course, the only one that can see it. But I do think that most neurospicy folks I know are collectors. We are collectors of ideas. We are collectors of items. We are collectors of things that make us happy, that inspire us, that evoke connection or creativity. And I also think it's something that a lot of us feel some sense of guilt or shame about, because it's like, that's a knowing laugh. Because we oftentimes, you know, get struck by a new passion project or hobby or something we want to start collecting, and before we know it, we're off to the races, spending lots and lots of money on things that, I don't know, maybe six months down the road or two years down the road or six weeks down the road, we might go. Yeah, I'm just not feeling it.
G: One optimistic way to look at it, or at least this is what I tell myself. It's just like being able to see possibility in all kinds of objects. You know, as a creative, I think that's actually really valuable and important to instead of walking by something on the street that somebody else would disregard as trash, you know, you see the possibility in it and what it could become. I've made some really cool stuff out of stuff I found in the free pile. And then I definitely have tried to have more of a rotating philosophy with my stuff.
So I do also routinely, like, impulsively purge a bunch of stuff, too. And, like, trying not to say there aren't certain objects that I'm very attached to, but for a lot of things, I try to keep a loose grip on them. And then I also pretty much only shop at thrift stores for any clothes or anything these days. So hopefully the hit on my pocketbook isn't too bad. But definitely when people walk in my apartment there, there's often, like, a whoa kind of thing. But I try to keep it looking more like a museum of interesting objects than a trash pile. That's the fine line.
H: It's not just stuff. It's colorful stuff.
G: Yes, yes, yes.
H: Right, it's the bright color. And also, you know, you're not doing this currently, but you weren't just making treasures out of trash as your own personal hobby. Like, you were part of a pretty serious project around that.
G: Yeah, that's right. I used to run, and I will again soon, a project called Trash Club and it was like a social event. It was the way that I would, I was in an industrial design program back in Boston, so we did a lot of 3D design and prototyping together, but it was kind of like, for sort of serious design. Like, okay, we're all making fire extinguishers, we're all making coffee machines you know, serious stuff. So I wanted to gather all my art school friends together where we could use some of those same prototyping skills, like quick and dirty making skills, but on objects that didn't necessarily have to have a function or a purpose.
So I would gather people in my living room and we would yeah, make stuff. And then there would be a like a makeshift photo studio in the corner where we would have the lighting really nice and take very beautiful product shots of our trash objects as a way of kind of like, exalting the trash material. It was so fun and I love creating spaces for adults to play and feel free to experiment, because I think that there are so few spaces for that to happen. I'm really passionate about making space for creativity for adults.
G: I really hope to see more of it, and I think we might, because I think right now there's a lot of pressures, definitely in my industry, in the tech industry, but probably many others as well, around, you know, AI, kind of the turn towards AI really pushing folks towards efficiency optimization. How can I squeeze the most out of the least amount of time? And while I know that AI can be a very powerful tool for a lot of neurospicy people and that's definitely something I've learned at Focused Space. I also think that if we don't make room for the inefficiencies of the human creative process, that we are going to be missing some of the next greatest ideas. And not only that, I think we're probably going to be losing what motivates a lot of people to work in the first place.
So and I guess that kind of touches in on, on the joy aspect, like if you can kind of come up with an idea faster, but you had no serious investment in making it happen, like, you know, mentally, emotionally or whatnot. I have a hard time believing that one would be motivated enough to push that forward and give it the care and attention that it probably needs to thrive. So, anyway, I do think that a lot of people are really split on the AI question right now and really trying to figure out how it can support the creative process in the places where maybe it doesn't make them feel so alive to talk, you know, to talk about, use that definition of joy. And I think a lot of young people are really asking that question. So it's going to be interesting to see what even. I mean, I'm almost 40, so to see the next generation of artists and creatives are thinking about it, I'm very keen to see.
H: I think it's going to be absolutely essential. And I have the bold opinion that neurodivergent people are a necessity, not an aberration, because I think we are and always have been the source of nearly all innovation, original thinking, evolution. And so I think the fact that a lot of people say, oh, there's a lot more neurodivergent people now, that's just the drug companies trying to sell medication, or it's the mental health or the medical complex trying to make people dependent. I think it is a natural evolution of the human species because the world is becoming increasingly complex and nuanced, and we need people who think differently to create different solution.
But if workplaces are not hospitable to those of us who think differently, a lot of people go the entrepreneurial path who are not super well suited to it because it's the better choice than what is available. So I really do hope companies are understanding that human beings are changing and our need for play and creativity and connection and joy is not going away. As a matter of fact, I think it's spreading. I'm curious how you audit a task or a project for joy potential.
G: You know, there's a lot of paperwork, there's a lot of administrative tasks where there's like not a ton of dopamine to be found in them and yet they have to get done. So I definitely, I think for me it's like, I try to keep more of a bigger picture view of it. Like, at the end of the day, did I at least do some stuff that felt creative? And I am satisfied by checking off the boxes in my Focused Space app so I do get the dopamine for doing the boring stuff so, yeah, not everything you do can be fun. That's the reality. But on the whole, I have tried to like, design my life to have more creativity than not. And I think that that's like, I'm very lucky that my role in the company is more on the design and community and creative side so it's just like, it's a really good fit.
But like, I wouldn't be a good fit for other types of entrepreneurship roles that didn't involve that. And so, yeah, to your point I also think I wouldn't be a great candidate for working at a big tech company or having a boss or things like that. But nor I couldn't be a solo entrepreneur either it's really very important for me to work with other people who have strengths where I have weaknesses and to acknowledge that and work with that and like, we all, you know, support each other in those ways. But yeah, I think you're very right that, you know, that the not wanting to have a boss but being an entrepreneur are not necessarily the only two pathways that you have there. I agree.
H: No, in fact, I recorded an episode a few months ago about for many neurospicy people, being an intrapreneur is really the ideal fit. And talked about what kinds of roles and what kinds of companies where you can sort of take ownership of something. And I say, you know, imagine if you could carve out a role. My daughter is doing this and she's working in a company, but she was able to maneuver herself into a position where she has complete ownership of a division. So basically she gets to run her own company without the risk of starting it.
And I'm hoping, I hope she's listening, I'm hoping one day she's going to be a full-fledged entrepreneur because she definitely has the chops, but she's at a stage of her life where she's proving that to herself. And I think, like, you really, really need people to feel fully alive, fully engaged, fully content, and have 100% of your brain game going on. But I think you do something else, that it would be a missed opportunity, Alexis, if we don't lean into it. And that is, I think, one of the ways you get through. I'm going to analyze you now, okay? Just for a second, it won't hurt, I promise.
G: Bring it on. Bring it on.
H: You don’t have to pay me either. I think one of the ways you are able to manage the fact that everything has boring parts is by doing many different things. You are teaching in a graduate program, running a company, Focused Space, doing some consulting with companies where it is interesting for you, making music in not one, but two bands. I'm actually needing a sip of water after saying all that in a single sentence. I mean, it sounds chaotic even for someone with ADHD, but I think for you it's very strategic. In fact, before we started recording, you mentioned that was one thing that you had been doing that's still on your website that you're not doing right now. And instead of thinking, okay, I'll create some more space in my life, I'll do a little less, you're like, ooh, there's an opening. I wonder what I'm going to plug in there and you did immediately. Oops.
G: Yeah, yeah, I think that I definitely do that. And I think it's probably an unconscious thing. I think in part, it's like I grew up with parents that worked a lot they were constantly working. And so I think that sort of like, life is work, work is life thing did get embedded in my head a lot. So I don't necessarily feel great when I'm not doing things. And if somebody, you know, comes to me with something where like, they're like, oh, we need your help on something, like with this teacher role.
They came to me at the last minute and they were like, oh, would you like to do this and I was like, well, I can't say no to that. Also, I love, love teaching, but I think it's maybe it's like a trick I'm pulling on my brain or something, because I did this. I remember I did this when I was my dissertation, which was like, oh, my gosh, that was the biggest. That was one of the bigger slogs that I've gone through in my life. And it was so stressful and overwhelming to get the damn thing done really didn't.
I wasn't confident that I could finish it you know, I thought about quitting many times, but one way that I think I tricked myself into finishing the dissertation on time was I told myself, okay, well, I'm gonna finish my dissertation by the end of the summer, and I'm also gonna finish this album for. If I'm gonna write all the songs for this album that I'm gonna do. So I kind of had this, like, side project trick. So in my mind, I guess it was like, okay, my life's not all about this dissertation, it's also about this other thing too. Now, did I finish the album? I didn't. But I did finish the dissertation and, I mean, I made progress on the songs and stuff, but I think it was a really good maybe it was like a little trick I played on myself to reduce the pressure of being everything.
All the eggs being in one basket. It's very that was a lot of pressure. So maybe it's something around that, like, having other things to turn to because everything you do gets stressful I mean, even finishing. Even finishing music is stressful and sometimes I'm like, you know what I'd like to work on Focused Space right now that's a little more straightforward than making art. So I think it's, you know, different paths you can take. And then finishing things is hard, though, when you have a lot of things going. So that's where, like, I've had to really up my skills in prioritizing and kind of keeping more of a North Star about, like, what's really essential.
And obviously a lot of that in adult life is, like, related to what's going to pay the bills and what's. What's essential for my business and then also for things like teaching, like, what responsibilities do I have to other people? I don't want to let those. I don't want to be someone that people can't rely on. So, you know, there's certain natural ways of prioritizing that have come. And I think that's only come with, like, maturity on my part and really understanding, like, what is important to me, what are my values. What kind of person do I want to be in the world? Yeah.
H: That's why I start my coaching engagements with all of my clients with a core values exercise. So important, some will say, I need you to help me with my business. Well, if you are an entrepreneur, small business owner, creative, independent, professional, your business will only be as successful as you are working in alignment with your gifts, your goals and your values. And you may be able to hack yourself or bully yourself or trick yourself or fool yourself for short periods of time. But one of the reasons why I think neurodivergent business owners are so prone to burnout is because we need different things to keep us going after the joy juice wears off. And we need different sources of joy juice and not feel the least bit ashamed about it.
It's not immaturity, it's not you know, so many people have said to me, I should be able to do this. and I always counter with, no, you shouldn't. No, you shouldn't. That is something you learn to think that may work for other people, but it only makes you feel like ass and it doesn't change anything. So bring in the joy, bring in the creativity, bring in the fun. Tell yourself lies all the time like, ooh, if I do this, I'll do that. Like, I swear one day I'm actually going to write this book. I have been threatening or promising, I don't know which it is. I'm going to write a book called Lies My ADHD Brain Tells Me. Good, right? And one of them is, I'll get to that later. No, you won't. No, you freaking won't. Unless you don't want to let someone else down.
You've learned that because community is so important to you, because connection is so important to you, because friends are your family, you'll let yourself down six ways from Sunday, but you don't want to let them down so it really does help you prioritize things. And we've been talking about so many things that we need as creative, neurospicy, entrepreneurial people to help us get things done. I'm curious if did you start off wanting to write a PhD dissertation about joy in design, or did it kind of reveal itself to you along the way as you struggled to get that fucker done? Because that's a long slog and it wouldn't surprise me if it revealed itself to you rather than the other way around.
G: Definitely revealed it to revealed itself to me.
H: Ba-bam! I knew it.
G: I know. Yeah and I think it's first of all I wasn't even planning on getting a PhD.
H: Oh gosh, that's another lie my ADHD brain tells me, I don't know how that happened I never attempted to do.
G: I'm not sure how exactly, but I mean, but yeah I think that like joy was actually, it was embedded in this dissertation in multiple levels because the project that I was working on was we did this multi-year hackathon called the make the breast pump not suck hackathon, which was all about how to redesign technologies for the postpartum phase of life, which is, you know, full of joy, ups and downs for people.
H: Brilliant branding, by the way. Brilliant branding.
G: We had fun with it but the thing was about that was like a lot of people came to our event with a lot of negative experience, negative experiences they had, whether that was related to like very, very heavy stuff around infant loss or you know, negative experiences with the medical complex or just other things. And so we'd really tried to create a space where people could approach really difficult things with more joyful, in a joyful spirit. And that's why I was very interested in seeing joy being redefined as not just about happiness. That's not what it is, it can coexist alongside difficult emotions. And so then I sort of took those lessons from the hackathon itself and applied them to getting that fucker done like you said.
H: I feel like you have revealed this to me and to the listeners through everything that you've shared, but I know you haven't been officially diagnosed with anything but you identify as a creative and as a neurospicy person and I promise you, you're a card carrying member of the club and we don't gatekeep entrance. What do you think one trait that you think, yeah, this is definitely because I'm neurospicy and it's definitely an advantage in business.
G: Such a good question, I think curiosity, yeah, for sure, a member will say something about their experience with Focused Space and I'll be like, oh, you know what, we really got to dig into that and then it reveals a whole idea for a new feature for the product or I'll look out at the space and see, you know, something that like a fitness company's doing and other like, oh well, maybe there's something we can learn from that. So I think it lets me to get back to the collection stuff. Like it lets me collect ideas from all over the place and as a creative that's so valuable.
So instead of like, you know, you could frame that as being as distraction too, you know, and going down rabbit holes that don't seem like they make sense at first. But I definitely think that ideas can come from anywhere. And I think that's a huge superpower of neurodivergent folks. And I love working with neurodivergent folks because I've got so many ideas from talking to them too.
H: Hey, we're just frankly more fun and we bring a lot more joy into your life and you don't have to be neurodivergent to be an enthusiast. And I think people who are curious are the most enjoyable humans in the world because they will turn trash into treasures. They will help people figure out how to make breastfeeding not suck. And they might even finish a Ph.D. they never intended to do so. Thank you, my friend, we could talk all day, but you have like 57 things you have to go do. So I'll land this plane and would love to have you come back another time.
G: Thank you. So fun, it was great to chat with you.
