D: You and I first connected on social media through a mutual connection who is also, a speaker and podcaster on the topic of burnout. And something else we have in common is that we have both experienced burnout, and we are both neurodivergent. What I've been dying to ask you is this, which came first? Did your understanding of yourself as a neurodivergent person come first, or did you find that out as a result of burnout and seeking solutions for that?
G: I think as a late diagnosed woman, I think I've been burning out for most of my life, you know? I surely was burning out for high school. I was burning out for university. I was burning out for early career. But in my case, which I think is also the case for many late diagnosed people, is that we have been gaslit for most of our lives, say you know, hearing things like, oh, this is not so loud. Why are you so tired? And we just learned to, you know, ignore our needs, not listen to our bodies. And this is what happened to me, and I did not realize that it was burnout. I thought, like, this is how life was, everyone gets tired. That's just part of the reality. So I was just going through that constantly. And I think only after the diagnosis, I realized that this has been neurodivergent burnout all these years.
H: The whole experience of masking, hiding, trying to conform to the norm, trying to be acceptable to people who aren't wired the way you are, that's exhausting. But what's also exhausting is the criticism and the rejection and all the efforts that we make to do better, to be more like them, unsuccessfully. It completely makes sense. And it's also very sad how long it takes most of us, especially women to find out what's actually going on. What were your circumstances at the time that you were burning out? What was your job circumstance, life circumstance? And can you describe really you talked about the fatigue. What else was going on with you?
G: There was a lot of different things because when I was burning out in high school, it looked one way. In university, it looked another way. In my early career, I looked different as well because I changed careers trying to escape burnout. I moved countries trying to escape burnout, but none of that actually worked. I mean, all of these things, they helped a little, but it never was a complete solution. It just took it took way longer to find an answer. But how it looked like let me think of an example. So, for example, I was in my mid twenties, I was working with children, which was a great passion of mine. I really enjoyed it. I was really good at it. I had a special interest in it. Well, now I know that it's a special interest and I was making good money.
I was working a lot, and it was tiring because I was putting all my heart into it. I was putting all my energy. I was working 60 hour weeks. And on top of that, I was volunteering, because, I was very much into yoga, and I was volunteering at this charity that made yoga and meditation mindfulness available to people who might not otherwise, have it accessible to them. So I really believed in that cause I helped a lot to make sure that, you know, we can do that to people. So and I was just constantly burning out. I did not know that this is burnout, I thought at that time that everyone lives like that.
But, yes, I was just working myself to the bone, never having a break. And I believe that this is just how life is because, you know, life is hard. You need to work hard to live comfortably to make money. And I thought, you know, if I find you something that I'm passionate about, this is this is, you know, this is great. This is, what I did not know that it's not help. I did not understand that, actually, rest is part of, part of success story you know? I thought that if my job is inspiring me, if my volunteering is inspiring me, I thought I should just do that because it's this is all great.
H: Everything that you're saying, I resonate with because I think for those of us who are neurodivergent, we have to follow our passion. And most of us, I think many of us, change careers either because it loses its magic once we reach a point where we feel like we've kind of mastered it. Not that maybe we've gone all the way to the top of the food chain, but that we've mastered whatever it is that we came there to learn and to experience, and then we're ready for the next adventure. I know many neurodivergent women who've had multiple careers, including me. Multiple they've lived in multiple countries because we need to chase our passion. We need to chase our purpose.
Most of us are very purpose driven, and it's more about making a difference in the world than making a lot of money. And so that often leads us on a very interesting journey that doesn't look a whole lot like a neurotypical person who tends to pick and stick. But I have to play devil's advocate with you for a moment, Paula, because when I'm hearing you say I'm doing something I love, and I'm also doing something I love as a volunteer, and I'm putting in 60 hour weeks, if I were a neurotypical person, I'd say, well, of course, you burned out. That's a ridiculous amount of hours. But that doesn't tell the whole story, does it?
It wasn't just how many hours you were putting in. It was also your mindset that it was absolutely necessary to work as much as possible, that resting and taking care of your body, listening to your body really didn't enter into the equation. And because I think there are many people who can spend many hours a week doing what they love, but they don't burn out. So let's talk about, like, why this is a complex, nuanced and very often misunderstood phenomenon. Because just about anybody can be at risk of burnout, but the way we experience it and the reasons why we experience it as neurodivergent women is different, isn't it?
G: One thing that came to mind when you mentioned first that, you know, neurotypical person might be burning out, but for them, it would be different. So one of the common traits of neurodivergent people is, issues with interoception. That means, perception of own body and perception of own body needs. So we often might not actually feel very well when we are hungry, when we're tired, when we're thirsty. This is why we are also more prone to burnout because we might actually have a very normal life not working 60 hour weeks and this is what happened to me later. I reduced my working hours. I gave up volunteering. I thought, okay, I'm gonna try to live more normal life, I was burning out, this is the same. And I think part of it is because, yeah, it's very hard to hear the needs of my body.
Now I got much better at it but at that time, I don't think I was really able to understand the needs of my body and notice them and respond to them, as well as another thing that's very common for us, lack of boundaries, people pleasing tendencies, and, issues with self worth and confidence. And that's again because as a late diagnosed person, you go for life hearing critique all the time. Especially as a kid, you know? You're singled out all the time that you're not paying attention. You made this mistake. You made this lapse and, of course, you are developing low self esteem, low self worth, always questioning yourself, and always people pleasing. So that's like a highway to burnout as well.
H: It's a combination of we don't really understand what we need. We have these physiological issues with interoception, so we can't get the message that our bodies are trying to send us. Plus, most of us are raised in cultures that really glamorize work and criticize rest as indulgence or laziness or whatever. So and the people pleasing and the internalized messages of what's wrong with us. All of these things combined put us at a very, very high risk of burnout. And I also think burnout is a word that just tends to be thrown around, kind of like ADHD. You know, a lot of people still think, oh, everybody has that or nobody has that or that's something that the pharmaceuticals made up to get money or it's an excuse for being lazy or unmotivated or whatever. So I think it's active courage to be able to identify what's really going on and take a stand because you're not likely to get support from other people when you do, especially in the workplace.
G: Yes, in the workplace, it might be taken as a sign of weakness, as a sign of not being able to do your job. I think this is really really hard when we talk about coming out and air quotes, as a burnt out person in a workplace. It can be really, you know, dangerous for some people, you know, they might feel that they're risking their job especially in the current climate where a lot of companies are downsizing so it's just a tricky subject indeed.
H: Yeah, you don't wanna put a target on your back. And yet every one of us can easily recall coworkers and even bosses who are very clearly burned out. And you just wish they would just take a vacation or have a less demanding role because they're not benefiting anyone by just getting it out. When I was working in the medical field in a academic medical center years ago, I, was on a committee of the physician wellness committee. And let me tell you, the hardest ones were the burned out physicians. We actually didn't even use the term burnout. We started adopting the more acceptable term of compassion fatigue because it put a little bit less of a negative spin on it.
I think the physicians felt really outraged and insulted that anyone would apply the label of burnout to them because they saw what they were doing as a calling, not a job. And the more they put into it, the more they thought it was evidence of how much they cared. But there is an upper limit to the benefits of our caring. There is an upper limit to the benefits of how much we work and how much we give. And beyond that, we're not only hurting ourselves. I don't think we're doing nearly as much good for others as we think we are. It is a little bit of a delusion that it is, what do you think about that?.
G: Absolutely and it's interesting how barn out happens at both ends of the let's call it spectrum. Although it's not neurodivergent spectrum, it's, you know, when you care so much about your job and you are so passionate about it, you're prone to burnout. And when you don't care about it at all and feel it's meaningless and there's no purpose, that's also risk of burnout. And it looks like there is the healthy middle. That's where, you know, the healthiest and more balanced place is so that's kind of a lesson to think about, I think.
H: I would agree with you and I also think that's one of the hardest things for people to it's not hard for them to cognitively or intellectually understand, but to implement. You know, if I'm working with a business owner who's on the verge of burnout or trying to come back from burnout, they'll cognitively understand why I'm making the recommendations that I am and why that would actually help them. But being able to implement those strategies and actually tolerate the discomfort of setting limits and doing less when you're so accustomed to just I call it giving till you hurt. That's, I think, some of the hardest part to do. Now I know that you implement strategies. One of them, most importantly, is mindfulness.
G: There is a lot of methods I actually use. Mindfulness is just one of many and also the way I see mindfulness is a little bit different from how people might define it. Because there is this, you know, mindfulness meditation it's quite one small thing. But mindfulness, I see as a synonym to being intentional, being mindful. So, for example, we all need to switch off at the end of the day. We all need to kind of zone out a bit. There are many ways to do it.
You can have a run. You can go for a run. You can meditate. You can scroll on your phone. You can have a glass of wine or 10 glasses of wine. And all of these things, they might need that switching off, disconnecting, resting, but they all also come with side effects. So here, we need to very intentionally pick and be mindful about what we're doing, why we're doing, what are the benefits, what are the effects. Because, you know, there is a lot of bad mouthing, the screen time these days.
And, you know, it might not necessarily be harmful if it's, you know, 10 minutes of playing a game and you put the phone aside. There's nothing wrong with that, you know? If you're mindful about it, and there's nothing wrong with that. But if it turns into 2 hours of scrolling and you are ruining your back and your neck and your vision and disrupting your sleep, then then it's a problem. So I would say mindfulness is really being mindful every step of your day and being intentional. Okay, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? What I'm trying to achieve with it? Am I actually achieving what I want to achieve with it? And, you know, what are the other ways or tools I can use to meet the same need that I'm looking to meet here.
H: And when I'm thinking about this and I agree. I like to define mindfulness as, consisting of 3 things, being open to whatever is actually happening. Meaning, not tucking into your head and fantasizing about what you wish was happening right now instead of what actually is. We're thinking about the future or thinking about the past or fantasizing or whatever, but actually being open to what's actually happening right now. And then being curious about what's happening or your responses to what's happening or why you are having difficulty staying present.
Maybe there's something that you actually need to do right now because it's drawing your attention away, or maybe you're not actually enjoying the thing that you're attempting to do. And being curious about it means you're trying to figure out a solution. And then being nonjudgmental about all of it, which I think that's probably the most important part is because can we really be open and curious about our experience if what that tends to lead to is judgment about it? And we all have that soundtrack that's been playing in our minds, internalized voices from our past that have become our voice over time you know?
What's the matter with you? Why can't you just get it done? What's your problem? Here we go again you know? Why can't you just pay attention? And then it gets really interesting when we start answering ourselves and getting into a whole dialogue. But in truth, that's the opposite of being mindful. Being mindful is, well, I'm really having a hard time focusing on this task right now, I wonder why that is. Well, maybe you're tired. Maybe you need to take a little break and come back to it later. Or maybe you always get distracted with this task. I wonder if this is something that you could outsource or delegate. Or maybe you need to move it to a different time slot in the day where it's easier for you to focus on tasks like this.
But to me, that's like instead of like, what's the matter with me? Why can't I just get it done? It's not a big deal. Everyone else can do it. What's your problem? Obviously, that never goes anywhere good. It's like, I wonder what would happen if I did this or tried this. And to me, the more we can live that way, the more likely we're gonna start to hate ourselves a little bit less and use our infinitely creative brains to come up with better solutions for what isn't working other ways. Do you have clients resist any of the strategies that you try to teach them like mindfulness? Because a lot of people are like, I can't do that, I have ADHD, don't you get it? Like, well, so do I, and I think you can. Let's just change the way we're thinking about it and the way we are approaching it.
G: Actually I haven't had people resist it, but I think it's not necessarily because it's not hard for them. I think it's about like how I present it and how I offer it. I usually very much listen to what has worked for them or not in the past. And, you know, there's definitely people who say, you know, they try this or that type of meditation and it hasn't worked for them. So we kind of look at why and how, and then we try to find a solution that works for them to achieve a certain goal that they need to achieve. But, talking about meditation, it's so, so common, but for ADHD people, they find it very hard. But I think part of it is because they actually you know, there is this misunderstanding what meditation is and how it should look like. There is a lot of, saying and thinking that meditation means you just have to sit there and have little thoughts.
And, well, that's not usually how it is. I mean yeah, sometimes it can be, but it's not like saying I can't work out because I will not be an Olympic champion you know? Some people who work out, they do become Olympic champions, but a lot of us don't. And a lot of us do work out and still see good benefits of working out and not being Olympic champion. So the same with meditation, it's really, that there are many different types of it. There are many different, purposes and, effects meditation can bring depending on the type on what you're looking for, how you're doing it, etcetera. But one of the biggest ones is just to bring awareness to your feelings, to your thoughts, to your emotions, to your sensations.
Because when we run through the day, we often ignore those things and push them away. And when we keep pushing them away for a long time, it's just really not healthy for us. They do accumulate and they do come out at some point and usually not in a very healthy way when they've been pushed away for too long. So meditation, if we do it regularly, it is a way to become aware of what's there, what's alive for me here and now what's alive for me today, what's alive for me this week, and then to process those things. And, of course, if you have a lot of them and you start meditating, you have all of them flooding to you at once. It can be very overwhelming. It can be very stressful and anxiety inducing.
So if that's the case, well, perhaps you do need to take a break and you do need to find ways to process those things in a way that's not too overwhelming for you. But I would say don't discard meditation completely. Do come back to it every now and then because, you know, once you learn to process those things, it is still helpful for you to come back to connect to yourself, and to check-in regularly. I mean, it doesn't have to be in a meditation for some people it can very effectively be going for a run can do the same function or many other ways. But yes, it is so, so important and healthy to check-in with yourself regularly and process the things that do surface.
H: Totally makes sense. I'm wondering, when you are working with someone who is at risk of burnout, they feel like they're on the burnout train. They're definitely moving in that direction. Maybe they've burned out before, and they recognize the signs, and they realize, oh, no, it's happening again. Versus other people who are already fully burned out and they need to recover. I'm curious about your approach for someone who's trying to prevent burnout but is definitely kind of maybe halfway there versus the person who's fully burned out. Like, burnout prevention or regression versus burnout recovery.
G: It's gonna sound very cliche, but it does very much depending on the person and on their situations on their needs. Because for anyone, it would be good to take a break. Why whether you are burnt out or where you whether you see that you are heading towards there. But, again, it's not always possible to take a break. You might not have enough days to take off work or if you're entrepreneur, you might have a lot of your launches planned, etcetera. You might have children. So, you know, depending on those circumstances, we try and see what is possible and how we can get a bit of a break.
Again, depends on the severity of the situation. Sometimes you need more, sometimes you need less, and there are ways to have a bit of rest, a bit of break without taking time off. You know, you can learn to regulate your nervous system. You can, delegate tasks, etcetera. There are many different ways. There is a difference, but it's hard to, I would say for prevention, it's very much focusing on nervous system regulation. And for treatment is focusing on getting as much rest as possible. But still those things are in combination with so many other things that are happening at the same time.
So for neurodivergent people, it is so so common that a lot of us are not meeting our body's needs at some level. Skipping meals, skipping sleep, not drinking enough water. This is so so common so this is needed at all stages. Prevention treatment, holiday. You know, we always need to do those things. And we always need to it sounds so essential, so basic, but a lot of us do skip on that in in one way or the other. So it's always that essential thing that we need to start with.
Because, you know, even no matter how good the meditation or mindset you have, or no matter how good the routine or structure you have, if you haven't had enough sleep, you're just not gonna be feeling well. You're gonna be feeling depleted or not enough food. And, this is an issue, I think, partly because a lot of us are perfectionists, and we tend to delay doing something until we can do it perfectly. And this is just not a good idea. I mean delaying food is just not a good idea. I mean, fasting or intermittent fasting, it can have its place. Definitely, it can have its uses.
But if you are very stressed, if you are burnt out, that's not the time and place to do it. If you are very stressed, if you're burnt out, it's better for you to have microwave food, to have snacks, to have takeaway than skipping meals. You know, you need some calories. You need some take in, to have, like basic energy levels. Because if you're gonna be skipping meals, you're just gonna feel depleted instead, and you're gonna run closer and closer to burnout. So I hope this really helps if one thing people here today, is just, you know, eat some food, get some sleep. It doesn't matter to have perfect diet, doesn't matter to have perfect sleep routine, just to meet your basic needs.
H: It's shockingly common, that many neurodivergent people, skip meals and don't hydrate and don't get enough sleep. But I think the reason why you and I talk about them as much as we do and put so much emphasis on them is because neurodivergent people are the canaries in the coal mine. We are more sensitive. We are more likely to be affected by things that everyone needs to do. But when we don't do them, the impact is greater. When our brains are dehydrated because we're not drinking any water, there's gonna be a bigger problem with our executive functioning. If we're not getting enough sleep, the impact is gonna be greater on our mood, our energy, our motivation, our ability to handle stress.
So it might seem kind of boring and redundant, but it really starts with treating ourselves like we're the parent of ourselves sometimes. Like we're reminding ourselves to drink enough water and eat. And if you need to get into a special diet and all that, that's one thing but just eating, period. Just getting up from your chair and I think the enemy of a lot of this stuff is something that many of us really love about our ADHD, and that's hyperfocus. I think hyperfocus is oftentimes what's responsible for us not getting enough food, water, or rest because we're in it, and we don't wanna break the spell to go pee or to the nap. We just I know I don't you know?
Yeah so I have to drink, you see this big jug? I fill this up several times a day. I force myself to drink it. I do not like water, but I know, I also don't like trying to think with brain jerky either. Doesn't work. We are recording this conversation in November with the intention of it being released in December. And I very much wanted to have this conversation and share it at this time of year, especially because as neurodivergent women, late diagnosed neurodivergent women and business owners, this time of year is fraught with additional demands that are very disproportionate for our gender. And I think if we are more at risk of burnout at this time, that wouldn't surprise me.
G: Yeah, absolutely.
H: Do you find as well?
G: In general, I don't remember the statistics, but I think everyone will agree that in general, women still carry the bigger part of household duties, childcare duties, even in the families where, you know, both people work. And in Christmas, it's just much more of those household duties. There's so much planning involved and buying presents and planning the logistics who's gonna visit then, and decorations, and what to buy for presents for children, for mother-in-law, what we're gonna eat for Christmas, what we're gonna cook, what ingredients we eat.
So it's not just all the physical labor, it's all the emotional labor behind it. Remembering everything, having all the ideas and when to pop in and when to do what and children's costumes and plays. And of it's, you know, it's always women always carry the bigger emotional load like in in most households. They do, these days but during Christmas, it's just much more of that. So, obviously, there's gonna be just much more emotional, workload for women to do during Christmas.
H: It's absolutely true that you can get just as burned out doing things you enjoy. It's not just a matter of you're burning out because you hate your job or your boss or your workplace or your business or your kids or whatever. You can burn out, for all the reasons we've discussed. So what are some things that listeners can do during this season so that they don't have to opt out or miss out on the enjoyment of this season, but maybe reduce their burnout risk while they're enjoying it. So what are your suggestions?
G: So say, I always a good idea, and this is what I always do. I always like to plan my month for or maybe sometimes 6, 8 weeks in advance. Not necessarily like a very, very detailed plan, but, just look at the calendar and think, okay if I'm gonna have, my work Christmas party at, I don't know, Friday night, then that means Saturday, I have to rest. I cannot plan to go shopping on Saturday for the Christmas presents right? Because it's gonna be too overwhelming right? This so first, this is always add padding before and after social events. There's more social events around Christmas, and a lot of us struggle with that. I know some ADHDers might actually find there. So if you're one of them, like, you're super lucky, I'm jealous.
But if you're one of those who struggle with, oh my god, those Christmas neon lights that are everywhere, I cannot. So padding is 1. Another thing is it's so good, I don't know at what time the episode is gonna air. It's so useful to do the Christmas shopping before, so you don't need to panic the last minute. There are so many good Christmas lists online you know, I'm not gonna start with that but you can actually eliminate that. And let me be the one who gives you permission, you don't have to overthink the Christmas gifts. They don't have to be perfect. They can be an Amazon gift card. They can be a scented candle you know?
It's okay. You know, if a person gets, like, 55 Christmas presents or 10 Christmas presents every year, they're not gonna hold it against you if you bought them something that is not, like, super thought out. So for people pleasers out there, let me be the one to tell you, you don't need to overthink it okay? So, yes, I would say padding, is your Christmas shopping. Let yourself do things not so perfectly. You know, if you cook everything every year, maybe this year, you don't have to cook everything.
Maybe you can do some things that are half ready made. So just see what you can do to reduce it. It's when you're people pleaser, it's very hard, but let me be the one to tell you that, think what you can reduce and you are permitted to. What else? Also, I like to plan my month in advance if this is for the women and people for with periods. Take a look at the calendar when you are bleeding and don't find anything on those days you know? It I mean, it depends how you are, but some women I know for me, it's like I have less energy than usual. I really find people annoying on those days.
So if I'm gonna have a Christmas part of that day, I'm gonna miss it you know? I'm not gonna feel bad about it, and you can do the same. And the same, like, a few days before period as well, I know I'm gonna have less energy. I'm not gonna tolerate people well so I'm not gonna plan any Christmas shopping. I'm not gonna plan any parties, anything like that during that time. And I actually noticed that if I let myself freely rest on those days and take it easy, I actually have more energy during the rest of the month.
It kind of works like, you know, if you sleep well during the night, you have more energy during the day. So I would very much invite women, people with periods to try this out. I mean, I know you can't, like, take the whole week off and do nothing. But if you can take it easier on yourself, you know, don't go out as much. Don't work as much, take fewer meetings, let yourself chill a little bit. You'll see you have you have more energy for the rest of the time to actually really enjoy those activities when you can, when your hormones are up and you feel more social.
H: That makes so much sense. And it's really astonishing that we all don't just do it naturally. Because nobody wants to be around us when we're crabby, cranky, bitchy, irritable, you know, fly off the handle at this. Why would I wanna inflict myself on other people when I'm feeling I'm not gonna be a good time right so why do it? And you're reminding me of why I am such a big fan of the wall sized annual calendar, the dry erase one. I'll actually make sure I link to, the one that I recommend to my clients in the show notes. Because with ADHD, we tend to have genuine impairment when it comes to our time horizon. Like, the time horizon is how far in the future you can imagine in this moment. A neurotypical person can imagine 12 to 16 weeks into the future.
I learned this at the first ADHD conference I went to, and I thought, oh, shit, I think my time horizon is, like, 12 to 16 minutes. No wonder I'm always doing everything at the last minute, and I'm late, and I'm stressed out, and I'm scrambling. So because my brain doesn't work that way, having a wall sized dry erase calendar means I can go ahead and think, oh, if I'm gonna be going to a big gathering on this day, I need to put an x on the day before and the day after the padding, as you say, because there's gonna be last minute things I'm gonna need to do, and I'm really gonna need that time and that I'm gonna need recovery time afterwards.
Blocking off your menstrual cycle, blocking off. Don't go right back to work the day after you come back from a 3 week vacation with a time difference. I used to do that. But if we're not thinking ahead and able to envision the future, we're always going to be making decisions under pressure last minute and not taking our needs and self care into account. So your ability to plan things for a month or 6 weeks into the future, If you do one thing after listening to this episode, do that. Like being able to imagine what you're going to need in the future creates more spaciousness right? It creates the ability to be more.
G: The one thing I'd like to add here is that a lot of people like to be spontaneous and they see that, you know, if they plan a lot of things and then it feels like a demand and they don't want to do it. So I'd like to add here that, like, if you make a plan for a month, it doesn't mean you have to stick for it to a 100%. But it just gives you an idea of what is possible for you and how much time and energy you're gonna have. So you will absolutely be able to switch things around and cancel things, but you will have an idea of what is really possible, how much space, and how much energy you have. Because if you don't do that, you will have no idea, and you can really be impulsive and promise things that you cannot deliver. So I would say, like, this is really at least for me personally, that is the use of planning, not to have a plan of what I'm gonna do, but more to have an understanding of what is possible, have a more realistic understanding and have clarity.
H: That, my shoulder is just lowered by about 3 inches right now. It's not a plan that you have to do, it's the possibilities of what you could choose to do. I love that. I think that's a mic drop moment. I think we should stop right now. Thank you so much for joining me and if you are listening to this close to the time that it has been released, which is, 2nd week of December, please be gracious with yourself during the holidays. Do less, put you first. You're absolutely gonna enjoy it more.
