In this two part interview with Dennis Jaffe, Ken McCracken, Daniel Trimarchi and Stacy Allred we explore the topics covered in the white paper that they have co-authored.
The collaboration is an example of the work being undertaken via the Ultra High Net Worth Institute (www.uhnwinstitute.org).
The white paper covers three key elements of transition planning
1 - Rethink
2 - Rebalance
3 - Re-invent
Through this discussion we explore each of these areas and gain insights from the guests on some of the key areas of this ever present topic within family business and family enterprise.
The podcast is entirely self-funded by me. I am not looking for sympathy as it is something that I love to do and I have a passion for providing great content for family businesses across the world. Some listeners have asked for ways in which they can support the show, be that through reviews, sharing with friends or a donation. As such I have set up a page that outlines all the ways that you can support what I am doing.
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Transcripts
Russ Haworth:
This is part two of our re-imagining transitions interview.
Russ Haworth:
With Dennis Jeffy, Ken McCracken, Daniel and Stacy, all red.
Russ Haworth:
Uh, the four of them have co-authored and collaborated on a fantastic
Russ Haworth:
white paper that looks at the.
Russ Haworth:
Um, ever present topic of transition planning within family business.
Russ Haworth:
This is part two of an interview with the four of them.
Russ Haworth:
So if you haven't heard part one yet, please go back and check that out.
Russ Haworth:
It's well worth it.
Russ Haworth:
And this conversation, we get a little bit more.
Russ Haworth:
Into the detail around things like the language and some examples
Russ Haworth:
of successful transitions.
Russ Haworth:
As I mentioned in the last show, this has come about through the work of the ultra
Russ Haworth:
high net worth Institute and the white paper is contained on their homepage.
Russ Haworth:
So if you head over to U H N w.
Russ Haworth:
institute.org.
Russ Haworth:
There is a link there to the white paper.
Russ Haworth:
I will put the link for that in the show notes as well.
Russ Haworth:
So if you're out and about, and can't visit that site right now.
Russ Haworth:
It will be in the show notes when you can.
Russ Haworth:
Please do continue to sign up to the newsletter.
Russ Haworth:
You can do that by heading to fam biz podcast.com.
Russ Haworth:
So without further ado, I will hand over to part two of the
Russ Haworth:
discussion with my four guests.
Russ Haworth:
And i hope you continue to enjoy the interview
Russ Haworth:
One of the other elements that you mentioned in the paper is the importance
Russ Haworth:
of shifting language, and Daniel, you mentioned this earlier around the
Russ Haworth:
shifting of language from succession planning to continuity planning.
Russ Haworth:
Can you kind of explain what, what the importance of that is or what,
Russ Haworth:
why you're suggesting that happens?
Daniel Trimarchi:
Well, I, I mean, I had to chuckle to myself just as
Daniel Trimarchi:
you were saying that cuz it's, I know it's a, been a, a pet peeve of
Daniel Trimarchi:
yours for, for quite some time and one that we've been very aligned on.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, but I think, um, well within the paper we kind of.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Put it down to three areas.
Daniel Trimarchi:
So one of the reasons we, we moved away from succession planning
Daniel Trimarchi:
to talk about transition and continuity is that myth that, that
Daniel Trimarchi:
about the binary nature of this.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And, and succession implies that somebody replaces somebody else in a role.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And that's quite binary and it's quite stagnant and it's also a point in time.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And so we really wanted to move away from that because what we are seeing
Daniel Trimarchi:
in is that these transitions happen over years and, and they happen
Daniel Trimarchi:
in often a scaled or a staged way.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And so we're not really talking about one in, one out.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, and we've seen that even with some of the research that, that
Daniel Trimarchi:
we at KPMG have done with, with some of our, our counterparts.
Daniel Trimarchi:
That families where multiple generations are engaged and involved in the
Daniel Trimarchi:
business do have increased, uh, return when it comes to things like
Daniel Trimarchi:
digital transformation or, or even business performance in some elements.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And so being able to treat it as a process and, and look for
Daniel Trimarchi:
that continuity was important.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, as I said, additionally, this happening over.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Multiple years, uh, decades even, I think is something
Daniel Trimarchi:
that we wanted to take note of.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Uh, and lastly, continuity is a goal for a lot of business families.
Daniel Trimarchi:
So for these families, this idea of continuing success,
Daniel Trimarchi:
of stability, consistency, um, these are all desired outcomes.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And so the language can be important here, uh, in ensuring that there
Daniel Trimarchi:
is that collective ambition coming back to that true north.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And we want that to supersede.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Any one individual transition or succession.
Daniel Trimarchi:
So it does actually also tie nicely into what we were just speaking about
Daniel Trimarchi:
with, with empathy, because think even just listening to that, that
Daniel Trimarchi:
conversation, we, we started with the idea that yes, empathy's a good thing.
Daniel Trimarchi:
for me it's, it's almost a non-negotiable because of the
Daniel Trimarchi:
interdependent nature of these processes.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And so if we can't understand and appreciate the perspective of the other
Daniel Trimarchi:
generation, the sibling, the parent, uh, the child, then we don't have that
Daniel Trimarchi:
ability to be a part of a wider process.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, so I think for those reasons, we really felt that that succession planning
Daniel Trimarchi:
has its role and its definition, but what we are talking about here is much broader
Daniel Trimarchi:
in the idea of how do we build continuity.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Within the business family.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, and, and that was the reason for, for shifting that language
Daniel Trimarchi:
and starting to hopefully bring it, into the, into everyday
Daniel Trimarchi:
conversations with a lot of families.
KenMcCracken:
And could I just say something there?
KenMcCracken:
Uh, cause language is so important.
KenMcCracken:
Continuity of business, family, as you put it down, Daniel Anchor.
KenMcCracken:
And said, I think at least twice is not necessarily the same as
KenMcCracken:
continuity of a family business.
KenMcCracken:
Continuity of a particular economic activity might not suit a particular
KenMcCracken:
business family, and that could be part of the conversation.
KenMcCracken:
yeah, these things are important and that it's important that we
KenMcCracken:
highlight them because, uh, just hopefully then aids the quality of
KenMcCracken:
conversation that people can have.
Russ Haworth:
Yeah, I think that clarification on, on what's been spoken
Russ Haworth:
about is really important as well, including the language, because I believe
Russ Haworth:
it's difference in, in the states it's more referred to as estate planning in,
Russ Haworth:
in the states and, and outside the uk.
Russ Haworth:
But in the uk dealing with your state on death is also referred to
Russ Haworth:
quite often has succession planning.
Russ Haworth:
And so if you are kind of.
Russ Haworth:
Put forward the, the idea of let's, let's talk about our succession planning,
Russ Haworth:
can paint that picture in people's minds of we are talking about the
Russ Haworth:
ultimate in terms of succession planning rather than that continuity aspect.
Russ Haworth:
So I agree.
Russ Haworth:
I think that the language is important.
Russ Haworth:
That's part of the reason why, Daniel, you mentioned about the, we've had
Russ Haworth:
conversations about this before.
Russ Haworth:
Um, I think I actually, um, first heard the phrase from ma Mick that, that she
Russ Haworth:
was using it in, in term, in replacement of, um, succession planning as well.
Dennis Jaffe:
Mm-hmm.
Dennis Jaffe:
, two, points come Um, from what, uh, Dan, uh, or a way and So Our,
Dennis Jaffe:
um, our, our business or to And the second that it's a, it's a roadmap.
Dennis Jaffe:
It's a series of steps and each.
Dennis Jaffe:
then the next step.
Dennis Jaffe:
So it and an end.
Dennis Jaffe:
It's really here do we Um, a uncertainty.
Dennis Jaffe:
This is a time of, uh, uh, know, kind of global, um, discontinuity and,
Dennis Jaffe:
and, uh, um, uh, you know, extremes.
Dennis Jaffe:
Um, what do we What, step?
Dennis Jaffe:
you begin to get the set some um, for changes that we wanna
Dennis Jaffe:
we'll look see further changes.
Dennis Jaffe:
And, and this is means that it isn't uh, process and, and continual
Dennis Jaffe:
change and experiments and new ideas.
Dennis Jaffe:
And, and, and I think that's what we're, um, seeing now in,
Dennis Jaffe:
in, um, continuity planning.
KenMcCracken:
Could I, could I just actually contradict something I said
KenMcCracken:
earlier, uh, which is not unusual for me, but I said it's useful to
KenMcCracken:
set a date, but that's conceited who knows when you'll need this plan.
KenMcCracken:
If the covid pandemic taught us anything, things happen that we don't expect, and
KenMcCracken:
the likelihood of unexpected mortality, for example, are other events that
KenMcCracken:
demand an instant should put us a notice that we need to have ongoing
KenMcCracken:
engagement with continuity planning that, uh, am I don't call because some
KenMcCracken:
of us, Bonnie Brown was great at this.
KenMcCracken:
She had fired drills and this kind of stuff.
KenMcCracken:
He had, Dennis, you're nodding and it was very out.
KenMcCracken:
If this happened tomorrow.
KenMcCracken:
What do we, what happens in the business?
KenMcCracken:
What happens in the family around leadership and ownership and governance
KenMcCracken:
and all these other good things?
KenMcCracken:
And I think there's great wisdom in that, that people should
KenMcCracken:
have this as an ongoing plan.
KenMcCracken:
So it was just, when we were talking about continuity, it made me think,
KenMcCracken:
yeah, this is a continual need.
KenMcCracken:
something we have a succession plan.
KenMcCracken:
Some data in the future, it will all happen because you might need to make it.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And I, I think just building on that is, and we see this
Daniel Trimarchi:
with so much of what we do, is that these are always living documents.
Daniel Trimarchi:
. Um, the plan that we put together now, um, is something that will
Daniel Trimarchi:
evolve, like you said, either because of internal or external factors.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, we need to, we need to continually adjust and review.
Daniel Trimarchi:
I, I remember working with a family who had what they called their kind of
Daniel Trimarchi:
planned plan and their unplanned plan.
Daniel Trimarchi:
. And so they, they had their hit by the bus plan in terms of
Daniel Trimarchi:
what Ken was mentioning there.
Daniel Trimarchi:
What happens day one, day 10, day 30, and how do you move forward?
Daniel Trimarchi:
And then they had their structured plan because they saw the that they could
Daniel Trimarchi:
control, um, the variables that they couldn't, and the variables that they.
Daniel Trimarchi:
weren't sure on that.
Daniel Trimarchi:
They thought, yeah, as of today, this is the what we think.
Daniel Trimarchi:
But, but they made a constant effort to make sure both plans
Daniel Trimarchi:
were not just reviewed, but they were understood by everyone.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Because I think it, it came back to that interdependent nature.
Daniel Trimarchi:
So I think treating all of this, and, and really, I'm just reiterating that,
Daniel Trimarchi:
that point around process, but it, it is that these are living, breathing
Daniel Trimarchi:
documents and that, that they're built on human assumptions, beliefs, values,
Daniel Trimarchi:
morals, ideas, which can change.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Someone has an argument or a falling out with someone that
Daniel Trimarchi:
might change the whole plan.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, so we need to make sure that we're, we're factoring that
Daniel Trimarchi:
in, I think along the journey.
Russ Haworth:
I think that can also be applied to, to what you were saying
Russ Haworth:
earlier about the, um reflective, um, self-reflection and, and uh, what Stacy
Russ Haworth:
mentioned about reflecting on experiences.
Russ Haworth:
If, if through this self-reflection you think, what, what I'd really like
Russ Haworth:
to do in order to, to maintain some of the elements of wellbeing that
Russ Haworth:
are derived from my role within the, the family enterprises to do this.
Russ Haworth:
And then actually on reflection of having done that, it doesn't quite do
Russ Haworth:
what you thought it was going to do.
Russ Haworth:
That's not to say, right, let's tear this all weapon.
Russ Haworth:
I'll just stick doing what I'm doing.
Russ Haworth:
it It's about making that whole process iterative.
Russ Haworth:
And also that kind of brings me on to talking about the role that
Russ Haworth:
self reflection plays in having empathy for others as well.
Russ Haworth:
Because if you do that empathy map exercise and then you were, were able
Russ Haworth:
to, to put some steps in place as a result of that to, to better understand,
Russ Haworth:
uh, what each of you are going through.
Russ Haworth:
That continual self-reflection should also work alongside the empathy side.
Russ Haworth:
Right.
Russ Haworth:
I I, is that something you would suggest from, from what
Russ Haworth:
you're saying in the paper?
Daniel Trimarchi:
Definitely.
Daniel Trimarchi:
I think that self-reflection, it helps practice empathy.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, it allows people to and acknowledge what other people are going through.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, and then it, it, it, you ask yourself those questions, what can I
Daniel Trimarchi:
do differently to change that dynamic?
Daniel Trimarchi:
What role am I playing in generating that outcome?
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, and this is specifically, I think, important within the family
Daniel Trimarchi:
dynamic because we are also often dealing with a power imbalance.
Daniel Trimarchi:
We don't have equal parties here with equal authority or control.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, and we talked about fear of loss earlier, we talked about the
Daniel Trimarchi:
difficulty for the senior generation.
Daniel Trimarchi:
In many cases, this conversation as a whole is involving them often
Daniel Trimarchi:
giving something up, um, giving up control, authority, and that can lead.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Yes, we talked about loss of identity, loss of purpose, but I think more
Daniel Trimarchi:
specifically it's that appreciation for the change that they're going through.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, and this kind of builds off the myths that we were talking about earlier.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Is that many cases, the the next generation are transitioning into
Daniel Trimarchi:
roles that have existed, have been filled by someone previously.
Daniel Trimarchi:
They're taking on the c e O role from their parent.
Daniel Trimarchi:
They're taking on a role from someone else.
Daniel Trimarchi:
They're stepping onto a board that exists.
Daniel Trimarchi:
It's the senior generation that in many cases are stepping into the.
Daniel Trimarchi:
because we haven't had generations previously that have lived as
Daniel Trimarchi:
long who have stayed as healthy, who have been as engaged.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And so it, kind of comes back to one of the underlying premises of, of why we're
Daniel Trimarchi:
here, which is that in many cases it's the senior generation that have the more
Daniel Trimarchi:
difficult task, um, on that, uh, that idea of what are they transitioning to.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And so I think that self-reflection piece, um, leads to that self-awareness.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And, and to your point, it helps that empathy.
Daniel Trimarchi:
So listening and supporting each other, trying to gain
Daniel Trimarchi:
those perspectives, recognizing that releasing control is hard.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, all of those things tie into, think this, this process
Daniel Trimarchi:
and those conversations.
KenMcCracken:
I think, I think they're also, there's a element here,
KenMcCracken:
Russ, these are lifetime skills.
KenMcCracken:
I mean, the more you practice, the better you get at it.
KenMcCracken:
It's like most things.
KenMcCracken:
So it's going to be hard if you are sort of.
KenMcCracken:
The personality that decides to devote your entire life to
KenMcCracken:
building up the business, which is satisfying a number of goals,
KenMcCracken:
including your selfish needs and ego.
KenMcCracken:
It's kind of hard to stop at 65 and, and, and discover a great skill for empathy
KenMcCracken:
that's like not playing golf for 30 years and then picking you up a club at 65 and
KenMcCracken:
expecting to play off a one handicap.
KenMcCracken:
So I think in a family business environment, if we can get this type
KenMcCracken:
of thinking involved at an early stage and to develop a skill for yes, what,
KenMcCracken:
what are my individual aspirations and what does the other people that are
KenMcCracken:
involved with me, what do they need?
KenMcCracken:
And do I really understand that?
KenMcCracken:
Do I, just because I'm old doesn't mean I understand what you know.
KenMcCracken:
Well put that a different way just because I was was 20.
KenMcCracken:
There's no basis on point upon which to understand what a 20 year old wants today.
KenMcCracken:
really just cuz I was 20, 40 years ago.
KenMcCracken:
That's ridiculous.
KenMcCracken:
So how well do I understand the needs and greets of the other
KenMcCracken:
people that are part of this?
KenMcCracken:
And to take time out to cultivate that and develop that thinking along the way,
KenMcCracken:
and not just back it all up and suddenly decide to become an expert in something
KenMcCracken:
our later life that's not going to work.
KenMcCracken:
So think about it as a lifetime skill that you need to cultivate if you're in
KenMcCracken:
a family business as much as you need to cultivate how to read a balance sheet.
Russ Haworth:
Yeah.
Russ Haworth:
And I think, again, in terms of the golf analogy, I think it's a useful one cuz it,
Russ Haworth:
that that tends to be the kind of answer.
Russ Haworth:
If people think, well what are your retirement plans?
Russ Haworth:
I used to work as a, a financial planner and the most common response
Russ Haworth:
I got was gardening and golf.
Russ Haworth:
Um and again, it's like how many days can you fill out of the
Russ Haworth:
365 with gardening and golf?
Russ Haworth:
There's only so good your garden can look and there's only so
Russ Haworth:
low your handicaps and go.
Russ Haworth:
So part of that, um, kind of um, uh self-reflection is understanding,
Russ Haworth:
um, perhaps at a deeper level what it is that you want to do.
Russ Haworth:
And if that's not something you've done, um, across your life, then uh,
Russ Haworth:
I guess what you're saying is that can
KenMcCracken:
I'm going to come in here again cuz I, I know I keep banging on
KenMcCracken:
about this, so I should perhaps stop.
KenMcCracken:
But what you need to do has to include your element of responsive,
KenMcCracken:
shared responsibility for helping others achieve what they want to do.
KenMcCracken:
I think, I feel that a lot of this becomes very insular, very individualistic,
KenMcCracken:
and the reality is different.
KenMcCracken:
We are in a network.
KenMcCracken:
We have that interdependency that Daniel mentioned, so the conversation
KenMcCracken:
has to go inward me and outward.
KenMcCracken:
Those others who's in interest, I think I have to consider or want to
KenMcCracken:
consider and, and round off the picture.
Dennis Jaffe:
and.
Dennis Jaffe:
. I, I the, next somebody that, clone to do exactly what younger
Dennis Jaffe:
grown up in a technologically.
Dennis Jaffe:
They've, they've gone to top, uh, are, I, I some of the of they're,
Dennis Jaffe:
um, if done over a, a, losing.
Dennis Jaffe:
Proposition for the future.
Dennis Jaffe:
say, to business school, that there's learned existed, I 40 that, that may
Dennis Jaffe:
be owner, the the, the, the, relation to my and um, empathy you have the
Dennis Jaffe:
authority and start with your kids.
Daniel Trimarchi:
O one way that I, um, I saw this kind of explained was
Daniel Trimarchi:
just the concept of coming at things from a of curiosity rather than a
Dennis Jaffe:
Right.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, and just being able to, as Dennis said
Daniel Trimarchi:
to I, I don't understand that.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Tell me more, or Tell me why, rather than you're wrong.
Daniel Trimarchi:
You should have looked at it this way.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And so I think that curiosity and judgment, um, balance tied
Daniel Trimarchi:
into that self-reflection and empathy plays a, plays a big role.
KenMcCracken:
And it, and it comes back to something we talked about earlier.
KenMcCracken:
The, the next generations, whatever, millennials, zeds, whatever, probably the
KenMcCracken:
best educated, most prepared generation in the history of family business.
KenMcCracken:
And this is why in our paper we're saying, well, are the senior generation
KenMcCracken:
the best prepared, most educated in the history of family business about something
KenMcCracken:
that has never happened before in.
KenMcCracken:
Which as you might lift to be a hundred, which the answer's got to be probably not.
KenMcCracken:
So we need to sort of fill that gap of, with knowledge and experience
KenMcCracken:
so that we start to, as you know, see it from both ends as it were.
Russ Haworth:
Yeah.
Russ Haworth:
And we've spoken about, um, a couple of, uh, tools, and you've done, you outlined
Russ Haworth:
the some questions that can assist in terms of, uh, say self-reflection.
Russ Haworth:
You also mentioned in the paper the role of assessment.
Russ Haworth:
So d Dennis, what, what role do you see assessments playing?
Russ Haworth:
Successful transitions.
Russ Haworth:
And, and what do we mean by assessments?
Dennis Jaffe:
Well, there are
Russ Haworth:
just
Dennis Jaffe:
assessments.
Dennis Jaffe:
So you you know, Those there you you last person You you people.
Dennis Jaffe:
So what 'em 360 you to, And, family, uh, and as discover
Dennis Jaffe:
didn't also wanna assessments where you how uh, your strengths.
Dennis Jaffe:
And you information.
Dennis Jaffe:
And sometimes, um, And the leaders, um, resist.
Dennis Jaffe:
Those assessment you know, um, the How do we um, what's, doing.
Dennis Jaffe:
everybody, um, you look at the is, is um, in, in this process because
Dennis Jaffe:
this is gets new And this is younger learns that, they, they weren't seeing.
Russ Haworth:
And would it also be true in, in terms of helping to prompt
Russ Haworth:
conversations around certain aspects that the the assessments give you something
Russ Haworth:
as kind of a benchmark to go, well, let, let's have a conversation around that.
Russ Haworth:
And, and back to what you were saying earlier about what does
Russ Haworth:
it need to look like in order to, um allow me to, to step away.
Russ Haworth:
It gives you that kind of framework to, to look at it through that lens
Dennis Jaffe:
see, when, when you get feedback, and, and, and I've created
Dennis Jaffe:
an assessment called the where Then, when you somebody in the each Um,
Dennis Jaffe:
the um, trust with very Um, how, um, uh, how do an issue in this family?
Dennis Jaffe:
Then nobody but it
Russ Haworth:
Fantastic.
Russ Haworth:
And Stacy, I'm very keen to hear, uh some examples that you may have seen
Russ Haworth:
for, for those who have successfully transitioned from a senior role within a
Russ Haworth:
family business or, or family enterprise.
Stacy Allred:
Uh, sure.
Stacy Allred:
So Russ, this example has two parts, and the first part is probably more typical.
Stacy Allred:
It's uh, uh, we'll call this status quo.
Stacy Allred:
And this was a wealth creator that started a business, uh, very much in
Stacy Allred:
control and told his family that all of the plans had been taken care of.
Stacy Allred:
All of the succession, uh, slash continuity plans had been taken care of.
Stacy Allred:
And the family bought into it hook, line, and sinker at face value and
Stacy Allred:
thought that that box was checked and then the wealth creator passed.
Stacy Allred:
And they were very surprised that in fact, uh, it had not, uh, been planned.
Stacy Allred:
And if you think about kind of the depth of continuity planning, right?
Stacy Allred:
It's, people think about it oftentimes too often as an event.
Stacy Allred:
And this kind of check the box and we know.
Stacy Allred:
Right through experience that it's, it's a combination of ownership,
Stacy Allred:
of management, of leadership.
Stacy Allred:
It's very, you know, there's lots of pieces to it.
Stacy Allred:
And so the family struggled, they grappled, they worked through it, and they
Stacy Allred:
got through that very challenging time.
Stacy Allred:
It was hard, and they almost lost the business in the process.
Stacy Allred:
So my success story comes from the example of the second generation
Stacy Allred:
leader who after living through that experience and seeing that it was way
Stacy Allred:
harder than it needed to be with, uh, you know, with a plan, it took it upon
Stacy Allred:
himself to build that continuity plan.
Stacy Allred:
And as he recently went through retirement, uh, these are a few of
Stacy Allred:
the things that he did differently.
Stacy Allred:
as he was kind of nearing that, that stage of retirement.
Stacy Allred:
He had lunch with three different peers and asked them to share their
Stacy Allred:
experience and what they learned.
Stacy Allred:
And what he found was it was pretty easy to find people.
Stacy Allred:
And also the person that he met with the, the retiring exec, uh, business
Stacy Allred:
owner that got to share their experience also really enjoyed that, uh, dialogue.
Stacy Allred:
So in essence, he was bringing the future to the present
Stacy Allred:
by learning from, uh, peers.
Stacy Allred:
He also, uh, in, in this, they got really clear as a family on their priority.
Stacy Allred:
They got, uh, really clear on developing roles for family members.
Stacy Allred:
And in that rising generation, they didn't have anyone that wanted a
Stacy Allred:
day-to-day operational role in the.
Stacy Allred:
But they all, they, you know, a certain number of them were very willing to be on
Stacy Allred:
the board, to be very engaged and really lend their talent and expertise there.
Stacy Allred:
And then he empowered a new c e o and very deliberately moved out of the
Stacy Allred:
big corner office into a much smaller office and only came into the office
Stacy Allred:
one day a week for half a day and really sending this kind of clear message on
Stacy Allred:
the, the confidence in this new leader.
Stacy Allred:
And in terms of that, uh, that next chapter, that vibrant next chapter,
Stacy Allred:
he had a North star to go to.
Stacy Allred:
And so found a really energizing, wonderful mix of, you know, doing
Stacy Allred:
some of the, the fun leisure and family and travel and adventure
Stacy Allred:
and kind of social entrepreneurship with also taking a, a position.
Stacy Allred:
and getting very involved in mentoring at the local university.
Stacy Allred:
And so a very rich, vibrant, uh, next chapter.
Stacy Allred:
But it was a process.
Stacy Allred:
It took a lot of, uh, deliberate planning.
Stacy Allred:
It was done over time and to Daniel's earlier point, they had
Stacy Allred:
kind of this, this plan, this fire drill that they did throughout.
Stacy Allred:
And so it was a very, very different process, um, than when the trans
Stacy Allred:
transition happened the first time around.
Russ Haworth:
Yeah.
Russ Haworth:
And that speaks again to your reflecting on experiences rather
Russ Haworth:
than just learning from experiences.
Russ Haworth:
They, they were able to do that and reflect on that experience and,
Russ Haworth:
and make changes to, um how they wanted future experiences to be.
Russ Haworth:
Right.
Stacy Allred:
Yes.
Stacy Allred:
And, and I would say too, it took courage, it took empathy.
Stacy Allred:
It, you know, I mean, there's lots more to say about the example, but
Stacy Allred:
uh, you know, in the interest of time, we'll leave it at that, but it kind
Stacy Allred:
of tied together in listening to, uh, to everyone on the call today.
Stacy Allred:
It, the elements of all of that.
Stacy Allred:
And, and I just wanna underscore, uh, Ken's point of it really was this, this
Stacy Allred:
wonderful balance of, you know, the independence and the interdependence.
Stacy Allred:
You know, really thinking more about kind of the system and others.
KenMcCracken:
And can I just pick up on something you
KenMcCracken:
said in passing there, Stacy?
KenMcCracken:
He sat down with a group of peers and it's not difficult to find people that
KenMcCracken:
you can talk to these things about.
KenMcCracken:
I would love us to be able to have a field in which for every next gen
KenMcCracken:
program that's running simultaneously a program for people of another
KenMcCracken:
generation, they have the need to sit down with their peers to discuss
KenMcCracken:
their stuff as much as the next gen.
KenMcCracken:
But as far as I'm aware, you could correct me here, that doesn't happen.
KenMcCracken:
But there is a real need for it to take place.
Russ Haworth:
I agree.
Russ Haworth:
I agree.
Russ Haworth:
Um, again, we've mentioned some of the elements and things to
Russ Haworth:
consider in, in terms of approaching continuity or transition planning.
Russ Haworth:
What are some of the tangible steps that the senior generation leaders can take to
Russ Haworth:
challenge their own thinking about what, what might be an upcoming transition?
Daniel Trimarchi:
Well, I, I think, I mean, we've covered so many
Daniel Trimarchi:
of them today as we've, we've, meandered through the paper.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, but the first one has always been that idea of, of
Daniel Trimarchi:
self-reflection and self-awareness.
Daniel Trimarchi:
So taking that honest look in the mirror.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, and talked about the impartial spectator, being an
Daniel Trimarchi:
observer of those decisions.
Daniel Trimarchi:
So actually taking the time to, to make a conscious effort to
Daniel Trimarchi:
do that, I think is important.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Dennis has just mentioned around how we can gain insights through assessments.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, and I think that's vital and different assessments will resonate
Daniel Trimarchi:
with different individuals.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, and some focus on, again, self-reflection, some focus
Daniel Trimarchi:
on collective reflection.
Daniel Trimarchi:
So there's the ways in which that can be done, um, retaining
Daniel Trimarchi:
a coach, um, to support you in becoming that impartial spectator.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Sometimes this is about creating accountability, both self-accountability,
Daniel Trimarchi:
but for those that need it, it's, it's the equivalent I think for me of, I
Daniel Trimarchi:
mean, I could go to the gym but I don't.
Daniel Trimarchi:
if I get a personal trainer and there's that accountability that I
Daniel Trimarchi:
need to go, I've committed to go, I've set a time to go, I'll actually go.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And so create those accountabilities as you need them individually.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, we've just talked about peer groups, um, and I think there's
Daniel Trimarchi:
nothing better than hearing it from someone in a similar situation.
Daniel Trimarchi:
We, we run some programs at kpmg.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Often the feedback I remember after the first night of a recent course, it was
Daniel Trimarchi:
just that relief of, okay, I'm not alone.
Daniel Trimarchi:
I'm not the only one going through this.
Daniel Trimarchi:
I'm not the only one struggling with this issue.
Daniel Trimarchi:
My parents aren't the only ones that do X, Y, Z.
Daniel Trimarchi:
so I think that group reflection, um, can be very important.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, studying, taking courses, uh, was another one.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And, and I know, um, Stacy will touch on that idea of lifelong learning.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, and there's something to be said for that, especially coming back to one
Daniel Trimarchi:
of the earlier points, which is this is a new skillset for a lot of people.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And so this working assumption that because I was a successful
Daniel Trimarchi:
c e o entrepreneur and grew my business to X mean that I'm
Daniel Trimarchi:
just gonna be as good at this.
Daniel Trimarchi:
This is a different skill.
Daniel Trimarchi:
It's a learnt skill, and it's something that requires of these actions.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, the last couple that come to mind, we talked about getting involved
Daniel Trimarchi:
in social, social action, social activities, philanthropy, at the ward,
Daniel Trimarchi:
the, the wider family enterprise.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, that idea of the business family of, of a family office.
Daniel Trimarchi:
all of these things I think, uh, are steps that individuals can
Daniel Trimarchi:
take, um, within this process just to, to create potentially levels of
Daniel Trimarchi:
accountability, but to also create tangible progress steps and milestones.
Russ Haworth:
and Stacy Daniel mentioned there, uh, around the kind of a role
Russ Haworth:
and, and, uh, value of, um, being a learner for life and lifetime learning.
Russ Haworth:
Um, given that, what, what are your suggestions for how the senior
Russ Haworth:
generation can become learners for life?
Stacy Allred:
Uh, so Russ, I think the first thing is to recognize that a big
Stacy Allred:
part of adult learning is unlearning and what is it that we need to unlearn, right?
Stacy Allred:
Adam grant's a whole book on Think again.
Stacy Allred:
That's so brilliant.
Stacy Allred:
Um, and then I think it's helpful to understand in terms of, uh, e each person
Stacy Allred:
individually and their strengths, where does love of learning fall for you?
Stacy Allred:
And so one of the assessments that we use is the Via character strengths.
Stacy Allred:
And, you know, love of learning is one of those strengths.
Stacy Allred:
And for some people it's a signature strength and their top five.
Stacy Allred:
And for others it might be a lesser strength.
Stacy Allred:
And the thing with strength is it requires doing right and then we can build it.
Stacy Allred:
And so how.
Stacy Allred:
Leaders that we've worked with built that strength.
Stacy Allred:
Uh, one family that comes to mind had a family council that was
Stacy Allred:
pretty robust, and the family council had an education committee.
Stacy Allred:
And on that education committee were family members that had signature
Stacy Allred:
strengths of love and l of learning.
Stacy Allred:
And they kind of infused the system with this excitement and energy and ideas.
Stacy Allred:
And so it can be a parallel of family learning and then individual
Stacy Allred:
learning for the individual learning.
Stacy Allred:
It's looking at what's exciting to you, what do you, what's reasonable,
Stacy Allred:
what can you work into your schedule?
Stacy Allred:
And at this combination of books, of podcasts of, we keep coming back to
Stacy Allred:
the importance of peer group learning.
Stacy Allred:
One of my biggest learning, uh, most valuable learnings
Stacy Allred:
that I do is I'm an in a squad.
Stacy Allred:
There's four of us.
Stacy Allred:
It's a true peer group, and we meet monthly and really go deep into stuff.
Stacy Allred:
So, Can they develop their own squad of peers?
Stacy Allred:
You know, kind of a smaller group that does that.
Stacy Allred:
And then larger, uh, groups, uh, look, continue to look for, uh, new
Stacy Allred:
ways and keep it fun and energetic and exciting so that it, there's
Stacy Allred:
more of a pull versus a push.
Stacy Allred:
Um, another idea is the next big Idea club, for instance, you sign up and they
Stacy Allred:
send you books once a quarter and they're books that you probably wouldn't get.
Stacy Allred:
Uh, otherwise if, if I am super busy and I need micro-learning, I
Stacy Allred:
could, you know, use Blankest or something that summarizes some similar
Stacy Allred:
service that summarizes the books.
Stacy Allred:
I think the most important thing is to recognize the value and build
Stacy Allred:
the habit of learning in a way that works for you and do it both you.
Stacy Allred:
Individually and with the family.
Stacy Allred:
And this gets into a whole nother topic of, you know, in our space of
Stacy Allred:
the role of the chief learning officer in the family and the importance
Stacy Allred:
of building those competencies.
Stacy Allred:
So we could ha spend a lot more time on that, but really fun and energizing
Stacy Allred:
if done in the right way and, and can be a real game changer in families.
KenMcCracken:
first the, the paper aims to share ideas that hopefully in
KenMcCracken:
some shape or form will be helpful.
KenMcCracken:
Not all of them for everyone, but some of them.
KenMcCracken:
For some people.
KenMcCracken:
just like to see, you know, in terms of the arc of our conversation,
KenMcCracken:
there is still something in it for those who have said, look, I'm
KenMcCracken:
pretty clear of what I'm going to do.
KenMcCracken:
I'm going to work really hard, retire at 16 C around the world.
KenMcCracken:
But just make sure everyone else who by your decision knows that,
KenMcCracken:
and that you have taken into account the impact that that will have on.
KenMcCracken:
Which bring us back to this kind of notion of mutual sympathy or empathy.
KenMcCracken:
It might not just be as simple as you would like because when you're ready to
KenMcCracken:
go for it, the people on who, who you have relied upon to be ready to step up may
KenMcCracken:
be thinking, I didn't see that coming ly.
KenMcCracken:
I'm now going to have to abandon my career aspirations to sacrifice my that I wanted
KenMcCracken:
to live, to enable my dearly beloved parents to go and do what they wanted to.
KenMcCracken:
It might have been helpful if they told me 10 years ago that's what they wanted.
KenMcCracken:
So it is all about, you know, an empathetic consideration
KenMcCracken:
for everyone who's affected by the outcome of these events.
KenMcCracken:
And, uh, practice it.
KenMcCracken:
You get better and the more you do it,
Russ Haworth:
Yeah.
Russ Haworth:
Fantastic.
Russ Haworth:
And, uh, I think you mentioned about the, the arc of our, our conversation
Russ Haworth:
and we've touched on this as well throughout, but, but Daniel, perhaps you
Russ Haworth:
could just kind of summarize for us in, in terms of that what families can do
Russ Haworth:
to help support the senior generation's evolution in, in terms of, again, some
Russ Haworth:
of the things we've already mentioned, um, throughout today's conversation.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Well, I think it definitely, that completes the
Daniel Trimarchi:
circle because we've, we've talked a lot about what we, what we see the
Daniel Trimarchi:
senior generation being capable of and, and the actions they can take.
Daniel Trimarchi:
coming back to this interdependent nature, um, there's a lot that the
Daniel Trimarchi:
rest of the, the system and the next generation as well, can, can talk about.
Daniel Trimarchi:
So question of, well, what, what could you be doing to help your parents or
Daniel Trimarchi:
grandparents come to terms with the need for a purposeful next chapter?
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, what could you do to help them resolve the difficult
Daniel Trimarchi:
challenges they may be facing?
Daniel Trimarchi:
what's, what's your contribution in helping them to continue
Daniel Trimarchi:
to have a rewarding life?
Daniel Trimarchi:
To Ken's point, there's a fine balance here between a, a sense
Daniel Trimarchi:
of duty and obligation to a sense of, of help or willingness.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, and this should always be for, for mutual benefit.
Daniel Trimarchi:
sometimes leaving it up to them, um, isn't very helpful.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And, and if you've got the power to have an impact on, on their lives as
Daniel Trimarchi:
the next gen, then how do we help that?
Daniel Trimarchi:
How do we understand their concerns, their fears, um, even to Ken's point,
Daniel Trimarchi:
their expectations of you as the next gen.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, and then I think the last point is, is understanding the implications of timing.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Does, is this going to happen as quickly or as slowly as you desire?
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, sometimes pushing too fast can be quite problematic.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, we often talk a lot with that process of change.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, and there's a great paper that talks about those stages
Daniel Trimarchi:
of kind of disengagement, exploration, choice, implementation.
Daniel Trimarchi:
do we bring that process so that.
Daniel Trimarchi:
People are moving at a pace that they're comfortable with, um, and at a pace
Daniel Trimarchi:
that's comfortable for the collective.
Daniel Trimarchi:
So think all in all, there's a lot of elements where the next
Daniel Trimarchi:
generation can play that role.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, and there is a, a balance between saying, this is what I
Daniel Trimarchi:
want you to do because it helps me.
Daniel Trimarchi:
It's more about, well, this is what I'm looking to achieve.
Daniel Trimarchi:
What are you looking to achieve and how do we have a better
Daniel Trimarchi:
understanding around that?
Daniel Trimarchi:
And it, it circles right back to this idea of empathy, um, which I
Daniel Trimarchi:
think has to underpin everything that I've, I've just mentioned.
Russ Haworth:
I'd like to, to go around each of you with some concluding thoughts.
Russ Haworth:
It, it's been a.
Russ Haworth:
Fantastic conversation, a really informative conversation, and, um, I
Russ Haworth:
would highly recommend anybody that is listening to also go and have a
Russ Haworth:
read of the white paper, which we would link up in the show notes.
Russ Haworth:
But but in terms of concluding thoughts, Ken, if I come to you first, the, the
Russ Haworth:
two elements to this, firstly, anything else that you'd like people to take away
Russ Haworth:
from, from today's conversation that perhaps we haven't covered, um, in, in
Russ Haworth:
what we've spoken about so far, but also the benefits to the transition process
Russ Haworth:
of families taking what we've spoken about into their own circumstances.
Russ Haworth:
And then we'll open up to everybody else as well.
KenMcCracken:
Well, to the first question, I'm not going to add anything.
KenMcCracken:
My head's buzzing.
KenMcCracken:
Uh, with all the thoughts and ideas that have already been expressed,
KenMcCracken:
I've got no space for anymore.
KenMcCracken:
So if that disappoints or is inadequate as a response.
KenMcCracken:
My fellow panelists might be more than I am.
KenMcCracken:
but to the second point, um, I, I was just think there, it, it is full of ideas.
KenMcCracken:
I, I don't want people to see these as a sort of set of recommendations.
KenMcCracken:
You ought to do this, you ought to do that.
KenMcCracken:
This is the best practice and all that stuff.
KenMcCracken:
We're just trying to get beyond all that kind of attitude towards this
KenMcCracken:
whole topic to say, look, we're trying to open up the conversation.
KenMcCracken:
Give the senior generation the level of consideration that they need.
KenMcCracken:
Acknowledging that we are in it together and take those prosaic expressions and
KenMcCracken:
add meaning to them based on experience, based on knowledge, and then let people
KenMcCracken:
to take them up and get on with it.
KenMcCracken:
It's a bit general Russ, but it's how I'm feeling at the moment.
KenMcCracken:
We've covered so much detail.
KenMcCracken:
I would, it would be impossible for me anyway, to offer you a summary
KenMcCracken:
and as the editor of this wonderful podcast, that's your job anyway.
Russ Haworth:
Thank you.
Russ Haworth:
Um and Dennis, your closing thoughts on the conversation today?
Dennis Jaffe:
Arctic, we're in a unique doing having your a um,
Dennis Jaffe:
that, uh, in um, in the discussion.
Dennis Jaffe:
And I uh, these are the things that begin to pay attention to.
Dennis Jaffe:
And I hope that them and, excited, uh, next um, becoming learners.
Russ Haworth:
fantastic.
Russ Haworth:
And Daniel, same, same to you.
Russ Haworth:
Closing thoughts on, uh, our conversation today?
Daniel Trimarchi:
Well, I think for me, I mean this is about, as Ken
Daniel Trimarchi:
said, something that we are, we're hoping continues the conversation.
Daniel Trimarchi:
We haven't solved anything.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, but that idea of, of, okay, this is an interesting perspective.
Daniel Trimarchi:
I should apply this to my way of thinking, and here are some ways
Daniel Trimarchi:
for me to start that journey, um, is really what, what we were aiming for.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, I think my only other takeaway away is we, we, we mentioned briefly this
Daniel Trimarchi:
idea of the, the hard skills in terms of the tax planning or the legal, and often
Daniel Trimarchi:
this gets talked about the soft stuff, but I think if you listen back to the
Daniel Trimarchi:
conversation we've just had, there's, there's not much soft and easy about this.
Daniel Trimarchi:
And so.
Daniel Trimarchi:
People, people applying the rigor, um, that they apply to other planning.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, just because this isn't as tangible or numeric as some of the
Daniel Trimarchi:
other planning that people have to undertake, it doesn't make it any less
Daniel Trimarchi:
important, um, and any less difficult.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, so I think appreciating that, but still coming at it
Daniel Trimarchi:
with a very and, and optimism.
Daniel Trimarchi:
I mean, ultimately this process is meant to be one of, of progression
Daniel Trimarchi:
growth and, and happiness.
Daniel Trimarchi:
It shouldn't be seen or feared.
Daniel Trimarchi:
Um, I think the biggest fear or the biggest issue would be not addressing it.
Daniel Trimarchi:
So I think just understanding the, the nature of it and apprec, um,
Daniel Trimarchi:
approaching it with positivity would be kind of my, final remark.
Russ Haworth:
Fantastic.
Russ Haworth:
And Stacy, same your, your closing thoughts on our convers.
Stacy Allred:
I think one of the things I so appreciated was the value of being
Stacy Allred:
in community and the dialogue and the learning and the elevation of what
Stacy Allred:
you can co-create right when you're working with together is, is incredible.
Stacy Allred:
And so I would just say it takes a village.
Stacy Allred:
This is really complex.
Stacy Allred:
You're gonna need lots of people with different skill sets and, and it's
Stacy Allred:
really the family members leaning in.
Stacy Allred:
And then I'll just end with, uh, Picasso's quote of creativity takes courage.
Stacy Allred:
And I'll borrow from that to say that continuity planning takes courage.
Stacy Allred:
And what to our listeners do, our family members and the advisors that serve them,
Stacy Allred:
what is one thing, big or small that you can find the courage to do, to start being
Stacy Allred:
more intentional on this, the journey, the the process of continuity planning.
Russ Haworth:
Fantastic.
Russ Haworth:
And that's a, a brilliant way to end, um, the conversation.
Russ Haworth:
So all that's left for me to do is to say thank you to you all for your time, for
Russ Haworth:
your expertise, um, for your collaboration in, in creating, uh, the white paper.
Russ Haworth:
And, um, I look forward to having, uh, many conversations
