Welcome to "Another Way to Think About It," where we—Lynn Kindler and Cynthia Zeito—dive into life's messy, beautiful questions with humor and heart. In this episode, we're joined by our dear friend Todd Bertani, a Lutheran minister whose journey through faith, doubt, love, and resilience speaks to anyone who's ever wrestled with spirituality in the real world.

In this heartfelt conversation, we explore what it means to live authentically in our faith, even when life takes us through darkness and uncertainty. Todd shares honestly about his personal journey—from early spiritual experiences to overcoming hardship and rediscovering his calling. Together, we reflect on how traditional religious language can limit or even alienate us, and why so many people are stepping away from organized religion today. Our discussion weaves through parables, personal stories, and the universal threads that connect us all, regardless of the words we use or the beliefs we hold.

What We Discussed

• Todd’s current sense of fulfillment and abundance, contrasted with the struggles he faced a decade ago (00:59)
• How teachings and parables—like wilderness, resurrection, and restoration—can be mapped onto our own lives (02:31)
• The reasons so many are leaving faith traditions: judgmentalism, exclusion, and misuse of religious language (04:35)
• The importance of an expansive, inclusive faith and the compassion at the heart of spiritual practice (05:59)
• Our own stories of growing past language barriers and finding common values even with those who don’t share our beliefs (09:00)
• Todd’s journey from a conservative religious upbringing, through the Marine Corps, and back into ministry, integrating wisdom from different traditions (13:45)
• The interplay between guilt, shame, pleasure, authenticity, and spiritual identity (25:10)
• How loving ourselves deeply enables us to love others genuinely, including in our romantic relationships (31:00)
• Everyday practices for kindness, self-acceptance, and letting faith be a source of connection and hope (35:04)

If this conversation gave you another way to think—about faith, about yourself, or about those around you—hit subscribe and join us for more honest, curious conversations. We're grateful you're here with us, exploring how we can all come home to ourselves and each other, one story at a time.

Welcome, everyone, to another way to think about a podcast where real conversations replace right answers. We're Lynn and Cynthia, longtime friends, exploring life's messy questions with humor and heart. And Todd. Todd Bertaney, welcome dear friend and Lutheran minister. And so much more than that, Todd. Your life really holds faith. You know, certain failures like we all have, love, redemption, all in one beautiful story. So when you.

When, you know, when you sit with your whole life, that journey, where are you now? Like, really, where are you now?

Oh, well, where I am now is just. Life is full and beautiful and wonderful, and I have a beautiful woman in my life who's my wife now. And. And just, you know, I'm doing what I love to do, and, you know, I have a wonderful relationship with my kids. In fact, my son, who just turns 24 today. Yeah, I got to talk to him. And. And they have a great relationship with my son and my daughter.

Her daughter's name is Tyler. And no, life is just really wonderful. And I think it's a product of just like, I think the lifelong journey of all of us is to learn how to live well and to live into who, you know, we've been crafted to be by, you know, the. The Creator. And so, yeah, I mean, it just is just so abundant right now. And so, yeah, life is. Is wonderful. And, you know, 10 years ago, it wasn't 10 years ago, my whole life was falling apart.

And. And. And it was, you know, it was. It needed to happen. And, you know, and so it's been a long journey, but I think the fruit of that is. Is what. Is what my life is now.

Yeah, it's so beautiful.

Well, and isn't it true that a lot of the teachings that we've learned, especially in the Christian faith, are parables that we can put in our own life? Like, 40 days in the wilderness, you know, can be used in so many different ways. You know, dark night of the soul, when we're going teachings.

Right, right. And. And resurrection. You know, we just. We just had. We just celebrated Easter a few weeks ago. And so I think that, yeah, it's. It's about resurrection and renewal, restoration, and then that's a lifelong process.

And if we look at anyone's life, there's going to be both crucifixion and resurrection and wilderness experiences. And. And then through that, you know, my faith has deepened and in. Just grown in terms of trusting how God is walking with me in. In my life and how I've been blessed and just really to. To just celebrate those blessings.

So so, Todd, you know, I want to speak to people out there. Well, a couple of things. My brain went in five different directions at the same time. Hi. One of the ways it was going was, you know, today, I'm sure that if you interviewed anybody during the time that they were alive, they would say, this is the hardest time of ever being alive as a human. But what would you, you know, what. What can we tell people? And the second place my brain went was how. How language really limits us as far as, you know, my understanding of a word, your understanding of a word, another person's understanding a word, and then how people have abused disabused language for their own understanding.

And I think that may be. Todd. My understanding is certainly in the last 15 years or so, in traditional faith traditions, people have walked away from the church. They get the efforts. Why?

Yeah, Well, I think it's because the way religion, especially Christianity in our culture is presented, it's. It's presented in a way that's judgmental. It's in it in a way that, you know, that excludes. And I don't, you know, and then, I mean, especially now with. With just the whole debate around Christian nationalism and. Oh, yeah, and watching, you know, our. Some of our national leaders, you know, be depicted as Christ, like figures and paintings and.

Goodness gracious.

Right.

Can we just take a moment and say how declassed that was?

Yeah, no, for sure. And. And. And with it, too, you know, it's. It's, you know, praying for, you know, death and destruction to our country's enemies. And it's. And. And so, to me, that does not reflect, you know, who I understand Christ to be and Christ's teachings.

And so part of why people are leaving is because of that judgmentalism and that sense of exclusion and that sense of really, it's almost like a theology of hate. And so. And so that's, you know, because to me, you know, you know, faith, you know, God is inclusive, and it's open and it's expansive, and it's. God is loving and caring and forgiving and embracing all people, no matter what they look like, no matter what their gender is, no matter what their sexuality is, no matter what their nationality is, no matter what their citizenship status is, were all loved and embraced. And, you know, and I have a deeper sense of that after my own dark night of the soul.

Right.

God didn't go anywhere. God was with me actually, more intimately and more profoundly. And so, you know, my hope is that. Is that other understanding of Christianity that. That we can really speak out more and more, because there's a whole other way. And so much of what's being depicted is not my way.

Yeah, right.

What's your way, Don?

Well, like I said, you know, it's my way is a way of embracing, you know, that God embraces all people and that we're called to love God with all our heart, mind and soul and love our neighbor as. As ourself. Even when our neighbor is. Is our enemy. Even when our neighbor is someone that we disagree with or, you know, that we're to love all people. And. And, you know, and that. That what God created, all of it was good, you know.

You know, Todd, I went to. Well, I was raised Episcopalian, and my parents were very metaphysical, and I was exposed to a very religious. In boarding school. That was not what I was used to being. It was hellfire, brimstone. But the guy that was the minister where I went was brilliant. And so I really got a sense of Christ's consciousness. Christ's teachings, really.

I have it inside of me. You know, it's. It's a beautiful thing, and I'm really grateful for it. No matter all the stuff that I've gone through, and what I think is important is to be. What I want to be able to be is not a reflection. Not only a reflection, but also a. I want to be a comfortable place that people can come and explore curiosity. I want them to feel comfortable, bring in everything to me and talking to me.

I actually, years ago, had a very interesting conversation with an atheist. And in my head, it was interesting because I was having a conversation with God while I was listening. And in my head I was thinking, you know what? We're more alike than. We're different. He's just using different words.

Right.

To describe it. But the way that his values were the same as mine. His. His way of being in the world was the same as mine. And so I thought it. I thought, wow, isn't that sad that there's a lot of people that we can't experience love with or whatever, because we. Because of how we define them by the words that they're using to talk. That connection.

Right, right. Yeah, most definitely. And that, you know, we're called to love beyond our disagreements, beyond our divisions.

Beautiful. Yeah.

And by the way, I've learned how freaking metaphysical Christ was.

Yeah.

You know, talking about how powerful the word is. And then when you start really delving into things, it's like, well, you can manifest things by just burnt.

The burnt burn.

It's like, well, Didn't Christ tell us that?

Well, that's right, most definitely. And I mean Christ in, in his own way was breaking down barriers, breaking down, you know, kind of old constructs of understanding the relationship between humans and God and really helping us to see that it's not, we don't, that we can never earn God's love. It's never about how, you know, following all the purification rights that came through the, the laws and the commandments. Rather it was, it was about just believing that we have a loving God. And the thing that I've come to realize is that, is that, you know, you know, there's, there's the infinite power of God which is out there, but it's also, it's also here in our hearts. It's a both and that is the paradox. And so it's just about really deepening and going more deeply into who we are as our true self, in our source, and then living from that place which is all love. And you know, I think with the enlightenment, you know, in the, you know, 17th century, that there became this duality between, you know, God and humanity.

But it's really all wrapped up together. It's all, it's all together. And so if it's all together, then isn't God always acting in a unifying way to bring unity? Yes, to bring connection. Which, you know, the irony is that so much of religion separates and divides

so well. The faith tradition that I adopted in 2007, the Baha' I faith, we respect all major religions. And the way that I've learned it there, I kind of call myself. I remember learning about a friend of mine whose dad grew up a Mormon, but then left that faith and he was referred to as a Jack Mormon. I kind of feel like I'm kind of like a half ass Baha' I, because I really, really love the tenets of the faith. Like, you know, you know, they encourage you independent investigation of truth and quality of women and men and the importance of science and education and all these things. But there's a lot of things that, you know, I don't read or memorize or whatever, but they're all about unity. And what they talk about is in the different prophets of the time, come when the people are ready, right? Like this Abraham, Zoroaster, Jesus, etc, And the way it was explained to me was that God's light is so, so bright that it can, somebody that's not prepared for it can just blast you apart.

And so there's this prophet that it can go through and then come to you so that you can take it. And that, that's the, that's a lot to take in for somebody that may not be exploring at that level, but for somebody like me and Cynthia, it's like, bring it, bring it.

Right.

I wanted to ask Todd what, you know, like, first drew you to, you know, ministry, like then and then versus now, your faith?

Well, what, what brought me to be into the Lutheran Christian path was I had had a born again experience when I was 14, which was very powerful and really was my first taste of a community, a faith community, and being a part of a faith community and experiencing how loving that was. But then I really rejected some of the way it was taught there because it was very conservative, fundamentalist, evangelical. And so when I was at ucla, after I got out of the Marine Corps, I went to UCLA to finish my college. I went to a Lutheran church and heard a message of we're to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves. And so then after I graduated college, I had no idea what I was going to do with my life. And so one Sunday at church, after helping to serve communion, this, you know, the, the presence of the Spirit came over me. And what I heard was, this is where you belong, up here, meeting. And, and so then kind of all the doors opened after that.

It was an epiphany. It was a sense of calling. And, and my conversation initially was, are you sure? Because I like to drink. I like to get in trouble. Trouble. I like, you know, I like to, you know, just be out there and, and what work. And what I heard back was, you're exactly who we want, you know. And so, yeah, so I think that, that, that is only deepened.

And the, what's changed between now and then is that. Well, and there was a time where, where when I left the ministry, it was not. I did not experience a loving God. I did not experience a loving religion. I was very judgmental. And it to me was hypocritical. It was like, okay, we're, you know, you call us to teach grace and love and forgiveness, but yet, and it's not always. That's not always how it rolls.

And so, and so I, for me, what I've, how it's changed for me is just I've come to a deeper sense of, of how much God loves me, of how much grace is there, how much mercy and forgiveness and the, and that God will never leave me, no matter what. And I've, I've learned. I think one of the, the shifts has been, is that faith is expansive that, you know, because over the, over the last 10 years, I mean, I've, you know, woven in some Native American, Native American spirituality through the Sweet Medicine Sundance path and you know, teachings from Garasa and Kalindi and center of the Golden One, you know, that expanded me, you know, Yogananda, you know. Yeah, yeah. So. So all of those things.

Yes, yes, yes.

You know, so, so that faith is expansive. Faith is like a weaving or a tapestry that has different threads and, and but it's all God. It's all right. It's, it all connects more deeply within myself, but also connects me with, with the universe, my connection as part of the, of, of the universal creation. And so that's probably what's changed for me and you know, let it go of a lot of old patterns. I was always been a people pleaser and you know, so it's, and that's all resurrection, new life, restoration and it keeps.

Todd, I think it's interesting you kind of went past it, but you're a Marine.

I am, I am, yes. Once a Marine, always a Marine.

That's right. So someone, how do you marry those aspects of, of yourself?

Oh, well, you know, and I think that it's good from something that actually I learned from Kalindi around. We're all searching, we're all yearning, we're all, we want something more, we want something deeper. And so that helped me to understand my experience of why I went into the Marine Corps because I, I was, you know, when I first, the first time I ever met a Marine recruiter in high school, I looked at him as sharp, he was confident as well, you know, and he held him, held his chest out, you know, and he spoke with, you know, certitude and confidence. And so I was like, I want that. Yeah, I want what he's got. So then when I was old enough to join and to enlist, I did that because I wanted what they had. I didn't have a very high self esteem, but I yearned for something that I saw, you know, bravery, leadership, valor, all these high virtues. So that's why I went and became a Marine.

And you know, and it was interesting because with the first Persian Gulf War, I just gotten out a couple years before I ended up protesting and, and it was just because I didn't believe that, that, that my fellow Marines who are still in the Marine Corps deserved to, to go into a situation that to me wasn't a just justification. So, you know, I think that, that for me, the way I reconcile it is just that, you Know, it's, It's. As a person of faith, there are certain virtues that I seek to live into. And, and, and the very best virtues I believe of the. Of the military is, you know, protection and just, just defending, you know, defending the honor. So, you know, so, yeah, I think that's. That's, that's how I saw it, you know, and one of the great mottos in the Marine Corps is Semper fidelis, always faithful to God, country and core. And so.

But. But God is first, you know, and so. And, and, you know, and we're defending the freedom of all people. You know, the freedom of, you know, all. That's why I just.

I struggle until we get the politicians involved.

Well, that's right. That's right. Well, and I think that these. These generals that have been, you know, forced to resign, are resigned, have had to do that because they didn't agree.

Yeah.

You know, that there are policies that were going against the very best virtues of which the. To me, the military offers up and represents, you know, so that's interesting.

You know, I. And a lot of the teachings, because I studied Yogananda for years, Christian, Hindu, and, And the Baha' I faith teaches that we're going to be. We're soon to. This is the time period right now. We're getting ready to go into a thousand years of incredible peace, by the way. But, you know, and I. And then I ask, why did my soul elect to come right now?

Right.

You know, but it's, you know, because in my higher self, I would like for all of us to get along, but, you know, it's like, that's not what this is in the earth plane. You know, that's however it's set up. Like, I'm gonna have a lot of questions when I go to the other side, like, why do we have to eat each other?

Sure, sure.

Eat each other, please.

Right. I mean, you know, because I love animals, but then I love plants and I love trees, and it's like, wait a minute, what? But. And there are. There are, by the way, some gurus out there. Not very many, but a few that can live on air, period. But, you know, and so you can get in a deeper conversation, but that takes me away from what's going on today, and what am I running from today, and how can I. How do I. How can I come in today? And you know what? I always ask God, you know, to talk to me and, you know, let me do his will and be careful what you ask for because.

Right.

I mean, I'LL have a hard lesson that'll come in that may not be hard for somebody else. You know, like, I'll go through a bitchy period, and I'm just feeling really bitchy. And I'm lucky. I have a very good friend and sister, Cynthia, that just gives me total unconditional love.

Right.

It brings tears to my eyes because she's consistently loving with me. And it's really actually, at my old age, healing a part of me, actually. But, you know, it's just when that comes in, though, if. When I get that kind of love from somebody, it gives me a chance to pause, use metacognition, connect with God. And what I got the other day was, have you felt this feeling before? Yeah.

I'm telling you.

Right. But we have that opportunity to do that every single second that we breathe.

Right?

Right. And I want to be able to be kind to people. I want to be, you know, respectful of humans that are out there. And if there's a way that I can make people feel good, not in a codependent, people pleasing, whatever way, but in a. Just like letting God's light shine through me. Right?

Yes.

Right. So I love to. I love it when that happens because then I. There's a. I've heard this, Todd. Maybe you know what this is. There's a better way to say it, but I'm going to just say it the way I've heard it. So sometimes when I ask God to use me, you know, it's like the light comes through me and then to another person, I can feel God just working through me using the vessel.

And it feels so good. And it's like I feel like I'm a slut for God and one of my friends. That's. That there were, there were, there are. There were women or in particular that were sluts for God. Yeah. You know, to be a. Because it feels so good when that energy is coming through you.

And you know what's. What's great about that is if somebody looks at you and they get confused and they think it's coming from me, it's like, oh, no, this between you and God. What is that, Todd?

That's a good one. I. On that note, I. I think this. Piggybacks right there on. On that. What is that? Guilt and shame about even approaching God. Because I love sex.

Okay. I love pleasure. I love to drink when I want to drink, sometimes other things and stuff like that.

So.

And I'm deeply, deeply, deeply spiritual and in love with God. Lynn knows that, you know, that And. And sometimes I feel. Cause I shouldn't. You know, in the earlier days, I felt a lot of shame just approaching the depth of what I wanted to change and grow and expand into. In him, into my truer, more authentic self. You know what I'm saying? Authentic. Such an overrated word.

But, you know, my. What would you call it, Lane?

No, it is more of who I am, period. Well, and to get beyond the rhetoric that has been keeping you in a box.

Exactly. You know, rhetoric. When I was a child growing up my mom's. And then, you know, in the. A certain spiritual program that I was with organization for about 30 years. And that did a number on me. It took me a while to come out of that into my own knowing of who I am in God and how I can serve in a much greater, greater capacity. And that's where I am today.

And I'm always learning more. Always. You know, I'm not. Not. All right, but how did you come back into the fold? I'm sure you had to contend with guilt, shame, whatever, you know, that kind of stuff for your own self, back into your faith in ministry and stronger than ever before.

Yeah, well, I think it was, you know, because I was in that same community with you, and that's why I came to Denver. And. And I think that I got to the point where it helped me really go to really be able to listen more intently to what Spirit was saying and to let go of, you know, different things that were standing in the way. And then what it brought me to was as I really began to question some of the tenets of that path. In the midst of that, I heard a voice that said, okay, now it's time to come back. You've done all this work, and now it's time to come back into where you have such joy. And this is really crafted you to be a teacher, a healer, a counselor, pastor. And so now it's time to come back.

And then, you know, one of the things was like, oh, that means I'm going to probably have to face some. Some shame, some guilt. And at the same time, I had already worked through a lot of that already. And so it was really a matter of just trusting and knowing that there was an openness and that this was. But. But, you know, it's funny because when I. I mean, I've been just celebrating being. Being in Colorado for four years.

When I came to Colorado, I had no idea that I would be where I am now.

Mary. Beautiful Jet.

Yeah, I love her. She's so my Wife and.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's such a perfect combo of humans.

Well, they grow each other, too. I love that part.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And. And. And. And then, you know, so it was just. It kind of became this thing where it's just like. And then.

And then coming back into the ministry, I mean, I was just fully embraced and loved and welcomed in, and. And so it was really. That was a healing.

Yeah.

Experience. But. But when I heard that voice, it said, it's time to come back.

Yeah.

It's like. It's. It's just like. Okay. So that was a renewed sense of calling and knowing that I was coming back in, having transformed and having been through so much, having been, you know, in a sense, Phoenix rising from the ashes, being resurrected and restored. I knew that. Yeah. Yeah.

The phoenix is one of my favorite. I always go back to that. And whenever something's happening out there in the world, by the way, something major that happens, I always look for the phoenix as rising from the ashes, because they're always rising. Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So to just be able to give hope. You know what I was. What I had in my head when you were talking about coming back, Todd, when that voice was telling you. Okay. I was seeing like. Like you doing cartwheels like a little kid and enjoying yourself, and I was seeing all kinds of little cartoon rainbows and, you know, like, fun stuff. It's like, you know, you get to go bring yourself and your. Your bigger self into a place where you know where you are and they need you.

Right.

You to be this new version of yourself that. That's more open because people will be able to hear you, that need to hear.

Well. Right, right. No, no, for sure. Because of my own lived experience.

Yeah.

Speak more and more from. From that place. Yeah, most definitely.

Question. Go ahead, Lane. You're going to.

No, I was just going to say, and you become a safer person for somebody to be able to come and sit down and explore because. Right, well.

Well, right. And. And it's broken down. It's kind of dismantled my own ways of judging other people as well. I'm. I'm a lot less judgmental. And. And because it.

A lot of that judgmentalism comes out of my own judgment of myself. So the more I love myself, the more it enables me to love others, you know, And. And it's with God's love that. That. That's, you know, and again, but God's love is when you get more. More centered and more in. In depth with. With your true self, with your core, with Your, you know, your source, then, then, then that transforms who you are with yourself and with others.

And, and we're all like you've talked about, Cynthia. We're always growing. We're never going to be perfect. My dad used to say, as far as I know, there was only one person that was perfect. He died thousands of years ago. But question. Yeah.

How do you, you know, show up differently in love? Like in, let's say, in your romantic relationship with Jet? Because I know you've grown as you both, you know, in relationship, but how do you show up differently than you used to, let's say, or.

Well, I think, you know, it's, it's as I. Again, it gets back to as I love myself more, it allows me to love others more, including my, my partner, my wife. And so it's just really accepting her for her and her accepting me for me. And then just, I think just knowing that, that really at the core of things, it's like no one else, even my partner, can fulfill me. But the relationship enriches who I am and helps me grow into who I am. And it helps me to. I think where I've grown and changed is I don't look, I don't look to my partner to, to give me that. Those things that only God can give

me, you know, and isn't that about. Isn't that about growing beyond our biology?

Sure.

Wow.

Yeah. Right.

Yeah.

Yeah. Because when we're unconscious, my image is that we're all just caught up in being the biological human. You know, there's no separation of church and state, there's no soul, whatever. And you're just worrying about where you're going to get your next meal, who you're going to get together with so you can procreate, all that stuff. And so then you're caught up in the psychology that's in all that. What did I not get from my parents, blah, blah, blah. And then you pick somebody for that and so you're not seeing. I just think of when I was really unconscious when I was younger and I was unconsciously picking guys that.

To meet a need that I didn't even know I had. No self centered, by the way, I always loved God in there. Cynthia knows that about me. I always loved God. But it was so separate. It was like a whole separate thing, you know?

Well, I think you also had this. I. I don't even know what you call it. Innate God, God clock. You were always driven by something strong and intense. It's that desire, that longing, that Clinton I was kind of raised with. Spiritually, you've always had that. So that's why we played real hard.

We screwed up really hard. You know what I mean? I really believe that kind of stuff. That's our teacher.

Yeah, that's true. Well, Todd, if you were going to talk to your people today, what's, what's one kind of message or a bit of love you'd like to give people today?

Yeah, well, just to A, know that you're loved and B, that the more we live into. To our own understanding of our, in our, to our own love God, but also is within us, then that enables us to, to love others as we let go of our own self criticism or self judgment or self loathing. Yeah, that, that, that, that as that changes who we are, that then changes how we engage in the world. That as we live more into that love within ourselves, it enables us to share that love more profoundly in the world and that. And that we are embraced for who we are and to champion our own identity and uniqueness. You know, we're, we're. I was just reading from Psalm 139. We are fearfully and wonderfully made, you know, that we're made with awe and wonder.

And God did. Created us with awe and wonderful. And so to see ourselves the way God sees us and then to see others, you know, so it's like, help me to love me the way you do, Lord. Help me to see myself the way you see me. Help me to, you know, to be in the world the way you see me being in the world. And that, that's. Yeah. And to be kind to yourself and to be gentle with yourself, because that always flows out.

And, and I think that's the way God works is God pours, you know, poured out his love to us and through us, for us. It's, it's. It's that we share. We. We share it. You know, we're vessels where we're, you know, we're instruments where, you know that God pours it out through us.

Let me be an instrument of your peace.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's like we're all little light bulbs if, you know, we allow it.

That's right.

So this, this conversation just reminds us that what reminds me especially what's hitting true, you know, Elaine, is that faith isn't truly about perfection or doing it always right. It's really about honesty, humility, and the courage to come back to yourself. Todd. Because that's what I keep getting over and over when you're talking is coming back to yourself. So, Todd, thank you so incredibly much and so grateful for being our guest. You're an incredible man of God. And for everyone, thank you for spending time with us today. If this episode gave you another way, way to think about faith, let's say hit subscribe below and join us next time for another honest, curious conversation.

Thank you all.