Episode 12, part 2 continues our interview with Will Cleveland, who is well known in the Rochester area for his work as a journalist with the Democrat & Chronicle, his role with the Police Accountability Board, and his detailed and prolific writing on the regional beer scene and craft breweries.

This episode delves into the significant matter of police accountability and the complexities surrounding civilian oversight of law enforcement. The discussions includes the contentious establishment of the Police Accountability Board in Rochester and the inherent challenges faced when empowering ordinary citizens to hold government accountable. We explore various perspectives on municipal governance, with Greg sharing his argument for the incorporation of citizen boards across all functions of municipal government, thereby enhancing transparency and democratic engagement at the local level.

Will rounds out the episode with a conversation about finding hardcore punk later in life, and what appeals to him about the community and music. Will shares some bands that are currently in frequent rotation.

Mentioned in this episode:

Joe Bean Roasters

Use promo code Lunchador for 15% off your order! https://shop.joebeanroasters.com

Mind of Magnus

Check out Mind of Magnus at magnusapollo.com, and leave him factoids at 585-310-2473! https://mind-of-magnus.captivate.fm

Lunchador Podcast Network

Check out all the shows on the Lunchador Podcast Network at Lunchador.org

I've often felt because, like, it's not without controversy.

There are people that are detractors because they're, you know, police supporters.

But I've often felt like the big hang up about the Police Accountability Board, at least in Rochester, when it had disciplinary authority, people were like, oh, you can't just have like regular civilians disciplining police or government employees.

And my role in municipal government is that, you know, I work for the town of Irondekoi, but I'm accountable to a nine person library board.

And they have financial control and policy control over the library.

Right.

And so people like other department heads who maybe work for, you know, recreation or department of Public Works at various jobs that I've had have always been like, I don't know how you do.

You got this nine person board, you got to talk to them every month.

And for the most part it's usually a pretty positive relationship.

And I actually like it.

I like having a large board that I'm accountable to as opposed to one person or maybe as opposed to like a town council or, you know, a city council or something that maybe only has like five members.

Yeah, because the more people you add to it, the more broad their perspective becomes and the more diluted, like one person who has their own, you know, personal agenda that isn't really in alignment with, you know, the organization or the mission of the library, you know, the less, the less, you know, they're one of nine instead of one of five is I guess what I'm trying to say.

Right.

So they have to really do their work to recruit a critical mass of people to like, make any, any significant damaging change.

And in an environment like this, that's, you know, the social and political environment we find ourselves in, that's, that's, that's very valuable, I think, to democracy.

But I've often thought that, you know, if I could change one thing about municipal governments, it would be like every town department would have like a citizen board that had fiduciary, legal and policy oversight.

And then like the role of like city council or the town council would become.

Are each of the boards like, abiding by the law?

Are they implementing best practices in whatever field they happen to be looking at?

Because I think that would be like a much more effective and transparent way to like, operate a municipal or smaller government.

So I, I've been very interested in the Police Accountability Board and have followed a lot of the news and lawsuits that have impacted, that have impacted all of you.

So it's, it's funny because the, the library board you describe is very similar to our, our volunteer led board also.

Nine members.

It's, it's appointed by ultimately City council gets to approve.

Rochester City Council gets to approve every single member of the board.

But so it's, it's.

Four members of the board are approved by our, our city council appointees.

So based on the four quadrants of the city, okay, there's, then there's four members that are appointed by the, or recommended rather by the Police Accountability Board alliance, which is a kind of a collective group of different stakeholders.

You know, some social justice groups, some, some non profits that they, they're the people that recommend those board members that are, like I said, ultimately approved by city council.

And then there's one board member who's appointed directly by the mayor, but also has to get appointed or recommend or, sorry, approved by city council.

But they also have, you know, it's, it's.

So I, I work in a professional capacity and I'm paid to support this volunteer board, so everything I do has to be approved by the board.

So like every year we have what we call a policy agenda.

So we'll kind of outline the projects that we want to work on or the things that we've been thinking about working on.

And then the board has to ultimately approve that policy agenda before we can get a, get a jumpstart on it.

And then we have, according to our bylaws, we have two different ways that we can do this policy work.

We have one that's called a proposal for change, which is the one where we ultimately offer recommendations to, you know, to improve or to, you know, amend RPD or city policy.

And then the other one is kind of an oversight investigation, which is what we, what we do the most of oversight investigation is kind of like a big fact finding mission.

So it should be rolled up pretty soon that I got approved by the board.

About a month and a half ago I did.

I looked at RPD's budget for the last 10 years and then compared it to, you know, sister cities across New York State, Monroe county, and then comparable cities nationwide.

But before we roll that out to the public, we need to get it approved by the board.

So I'll have to approve, to present to the board.

So the board ultimately has to either approve or, you know, make recommendations or, you know, edits or anything like that based on any of the work that I do.

So it's kind of similar to what you're kind of doing as a, as a library director.

It seems like just kind of In a.

In a different realm.

Oh, yeah, totally.

The other.

The.

The only other intersection I've ever had with, like, police accountability and corruption was there used to be this.

And I don't know if it's still around because I've kind of dipped out of, like, true crime podcasts.

I. I, like, fell into that craze.

But there used to be this true crime podcast called Criminal, and they had an episode about an allegation of corruption in Rochester Police Department.

And I didn't, like, know anything about that.

Somehow I missed, like, the news stories and I had just, like, put it on, and they're like, oh, they're talking about Rochester.

Like, oh, holy.

I've, like, never heard of this.

And I googled the cop that was at the center of the case, and I think the allegation was he, like, planted a gun on someone or did something like that.

Don't quote me.

I'm not a journalist.

I just pretend to be one on a podcast.

But then I, like, Google this guy, and I'm like, oh, holy, I know this guy.

He, like, works out at the same gym as me.

And sometimes, like, I've spotted him and he's spotted me, and I'm like, oh, God, I put my life in this man's hands.

And it was, like, a really creepy situation because I, like, I don't know anybody, didn't even know he was a cop.

Everyone's wearing gym shorts and a T shirt.

So I thought I would share that since it's.

It's loosely related to holding police accountable.

I'm really fascinated when I hear, like, podcasts based on, like, either some of the stories that I've covered or some of the things that are going in around Rochester.

There was one that I listened to recently that was.

It was the woman who does crime junkies, but it's a deck of cards.

I can't remember.

I can't remember what the name of the podcast was, but it was a podcast based on.

But the people were killed before the fire was set.

And so it was a whole.

It's been unsolved for almost 10 years now, but they did some interviews with some of the retired investigators, but from rpd.

So just having this Perspective of.

But that.

But it, like, cited some of my reporting too, which was kind of cool.

I respect.

I respect, you know, these podcasts where they, you know, like, instead of just like saying they're logging in newspapers.com or googling something and just like regurgitating something that someone else reported that they give credit to, someone else who had already, you know, been on the ground and done that work.

But yeah, true crime podcast, I. I don't listen to a lot of them anymore.

I used to listen to a lot more, but I listened to, like, music podcast now.

Just random stuff.

But yeah, I will say the.

The one true crime type podcast that I really got into was called Hitman.

Okay.

And it was done by Jasmine Morris, which is.

She is a Rochester area local.

Yeah.

And she works.

It was through, I think I Heart Media.

And it was about this book that was written, and it was almost like a template on how to commit a murder and get away with it and had this unknown author wrote it.

But then someone followed the rules in it and.

And did what this person, like, said to do.

And so they were trying to find out who wrote it and all this stuff and went through the whole thing.

There it is.

Interviewed people.

It was.

It's fascina.

It's really fascinating.

And actually recently, I think maybe the New Yorker came out with a new article and the person who actually wrote the book identified themselves because at the time of the podcast, it wasn't revealed who wrote it and it turned out to be a woman.

Surprisingly, just out of the blue.

It's super fascinating and well done podcast.

I need to listen to that.

It's like there's a bunch of murder, like, actual real murders that were motivated by the TV show Dexter.

Like, there's like, more than like, three.

It's pretty up.

Oh, wow.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

So, you know, you're.

You're the other thing that I think you're known for in.

In.

In Rochester.

And if we want to dip back into crime and murdering and corruption, we can certainly do that.

There's ample.

Ample fodder for that out in the world today.

But the other thing that you're.

The other thing that you're really known for is your expertise, your reviews on beer.

And this is a terrible podcast to talk about beer because Rory and I don't drink.

Yeah.

So.

So what is beer?

Never heard of it.

Funny aside, I was texting with Nate Stahl, the chef over at Strange Bird.

Love Nate.

Shout out Nate.

Yep.

He's.

He's the fucking best and he said that I should come on the podcast and the first thing I should do would be to shotgun a beer.

I'm just going to enjoy my.

My Polar seltzer right now.

Flavor you got?

I'm doing the pink apple and lemon right now.

All right, all right.

Is that a seasonal fall?

No, I think it's one of the core, core ones.

Now.

It's in the mixed case that I got from Costco last week.

Not, not to derail this, but we can talk Seltzer.

Didn't you, like, didn't you draw.

You tasted all the Wegmans ones?

I did Seltzer rankings.

That's like two of the One.

Two of the most like things I'm most proud.

Proud of at the DNC is I during actually right before the pandemic, then during it, I convinced my.

My editor that I'm like, my wife introduced me to Sultan.

It like completely broke my pop addiction.

Love that.

Yeah.

So I, I ranked at first.

I ranked all 20 at that point.

Bottled, I think it was 18 or whatever it was Wegman Seltzers.

And then I ranked Polar seltzers right after that.

But I mean, Wegman Seltzers are made by Polar.

So it's just, you know, it's all.

It's a lot of the same stuff, you know, slightly different flavors.

And it was hilarious because the readership on those stories was.

Was huge.

Like, people were, like, excited that, you know, the, the Rochester beer guy had.

Had written about Seltzers, and I had a lot of fun for that.

Then I got a lot of.

A lot of inspiration from that.

From your, Your.

Your friend Bob Krueger.

Oh, exactly.

One of, one of Rory's.

Rory's amazing folks over at Ugly Duck, who was preaching hard about Seltzer way before I understood what was going on, because I tried seltzer first.

I'm like, what is this nastiness?

And now, now I love it.

But yeah, so I got to.

I ranked.

I ranked seltzer flavors.

One of the More.

One of the things I'm most proud of too was the one I picked as the best.

Wegman Seltzer wasn't canned at the time.

It was the orange pineapple.

And I kind of launched like a social media blitz and Wegmans eventually canned it.

It was used to be only in the.

In the liter bottles.

Now you get it, the 12 pack hands.

And I, I'm gonna take credit for that, even though it's probably has, you know, was nothing do with any of my work.

But so, yeah, Seltzer do, do Wegmans ever acknowledge that?

Do they like send you a free case of your favorite flavor or something?

But they, they tweeted at me once where I was like, I was like.

Because I would tweet at them like randomly from time to time.

Like the, the one thing I, I, I do now most on social media is I yell at Congressman Joe Morelli if, if you, I mean, you guys will follow me.

So you see that we, we don't agree on a lot of things and I'll, I'll keep politics out of this and, but one of the things I used to do most on Twitter when I was still on there was I would tweet at Wegmans saying like, you know, every time they would share something, I'd be like, you know, you can't hide from the fact that your best seltzer flavor isn't available in 12 pack cans.

And my wife will tell me that I get obsessed about things and she'll be like, you know, she'll forbid me from talking about things on social media for a while if I would get like too obsessed with it.

One of them was the, the Buffalo Bills new stadium because I was still pissed that all the public money was used for that, for the stadium.

So she forbid me from.

She's like, everyone knows you don't support $850 million in public money being used to the Bill stadium.

So you can just shut the up about it because everyone knows where you stand already.

She hasn't told me to stop you, Joe Morelli, which is weird, but that's why I don't have a real one.

She's the best, but she, you know, she's, like I said, she's my social media consultant.

And.

Yeah, Seltzers.

I, I forgot how we're getting sidetracked here.

No, no, my, my brother in law says that seltzers taste like fruit flavored TV static.

And, and I think he's right.

I'm more of a soda drinker.

There's nothing that'll break my soda addiction.

All good.

But.

I'm a fan.

I mean, I don't mind.

When I'm out of anything to drink, I'll drink my wife's mandarin orange Wegmans flavor.

Although she swears the Wegmans Seltzers are better than Polar.

And now I know the truth, that it's all, it's all the same from the same place.

I definitely prefer canned over any of the plastic bottles.

Agreed.

Yeah, superior.

I don't know if it, I don't know if it holds the carbonation better or what.

What it is.

But yeah, the, like you don't have to commit to as many ounces too.

You know, you do do it 12 ounces at a time.

You can, if you need that second one, you can go back and forth.

But yeah.

So back to beer.

How.

How did you get started?

Because I, I recall and I always glossed over your beer articles because again, I don't drink but like oh good.

I.

You got started writing like occasional beer articles for dnc.

Is that how it got you started?

So it'll be next month?

No, it.

I've been, I've been writing about local beer for 12 years now, which has been cool because now I do my, my own thing.

SSL off the paper.

I do it through substack CLEVELAND Prost Pure Ost.

Here's my, my plug.substack.com.

Oh yeah.

But I write about whatever I want honestly, which has been fun.

Like I did a, I did a.

Here's, here's my favorite Hot Wheels cars and paired with whatever beers I think they would, they would, they would go towards.

But.

And so yeah, I've been right about beer for 12 years.

I was a home brewer before then.

I used to brew with my next door neighbor who is a chef who has like one of those cool brains that it's like, you know, is really good with flavors.

So like this needs to go with this or let's try this and this.

I'm not.

I was really bad at home brewing.

Really bad.

Because most of home brewing is, is, is.

Is Janet.

You know, sanitary janitation work.

Janitation, janitorial work.

I'm making up words there.

Janitorial work and you know, making sure that everything's clean because you don't want any contamination and stuff like that.

But then I realized that I was, I, I was love to write and had an editor at the paper shout out Sarah Krupy back in the day where we had beer columnists who didn't really want to write about local stuff.

And she was like, you know, why don't you write me three test columns?

So I did.

That led to just kind of follow finding this really cool niche within Rochester where I've been able to break a lot of the, the biggest beer news and meet a lot of cool people and make these connections.

Like one of my, one of my hidden talents has been, you know, connecting breweries with, with different properties or real estate agents, you know, kind of leading to.

I don't Know, it's been cool because I think I've really helped the scene grow and done a lot to kind of foster a lot of connection and, and just been really proud of some of the work I've done there.

But, yeah, but talk about Beer with the Silver guys is always fun.

I mean, for me, like, you know, I see it through your writing and, and the connection and community aspect to it, you know, which is.

Speaks to me, which is always really neat to like.

It's not, it's not this, like, super uber competitive aspect.

It's like, it's bringing people together and getting people to value each other, but also, like, respecting the work.

My old goal too.

And I, I, I lose track of, lose sight of that a lot too, because it'd be like I'm just kind of competing with myself or competing with other folks to get news out or, or, you know, be the first to publish something.

But you mentioned that.

But Max, Quatro, Chucky was.

We were talking about that, you know, the drummer in your band there.

Those guys are great, by the way.

If you haven't listened, listen to Coming down.

And Max was like, he's like, you, you're, you know, same with.

Same with Greg at the library, and same with Rory the Ugly Duck.

You know, it's, it's, it's about community.

You know, you're, you're dealing with a different type of community.

There's, there's obviously some overlap.

You know, it's.

And you boil down.

I think it's all about people who are really nerdy about really weird or kind of esoteric stuff.

And I think that's kind of what I'm drawn to, is the people who are kind of like the nerdies, nerdiest of the nerdy.

But it's always what, what my goal is really, is to tell the, Tell the stories about the people.

The beverage is kind of secondary.

You know, I don't try to, like, you know, drink what you like.

Like, I don't, I've.

I've went through that phase where, you know, you look down at someone for, for drinking something that was, you know, that you might find gross or that you think is just not worthy of praise or worthy of attention, but it's also like, like, who, who gives a.

Like, if it makes you happy, just like, you're not hurting anyone.

Like, I don't care what you're gonna drink.

Like, just, just support people and, you know, it's just a way to support local people chasing their dreams and trying to do cool stuff and kind of build community and support other folks.

And that's always just kind of been a goal of mine.

I forgot who told him.

It told, said it to me.

But you know that like the goal is just to champion what you love.

It's just, you know, one of, one of my core roles is support your friends when they're trying to do cool.

And so that's, that's always been a, been a goal with my writing.

Like I, I don't do negative generally.

Like if I don't like something, I just ignore it.

If I think something's gross, you know, I'll just, I just won't write about it because, you know, it's just not worth negative, negative attention.

It used to be kind of the counterbalance to all my, all my breaking news and cops and courts reported I did at the paper.

You know, the, the beer like the 10 of my job that wasn't weird and depressing is the way I looked at it.

So it was just.

Which is weird because beer is a depression.

But so, but, but it was just a means to tell cool stories to like I've, I think I've written about every new brewery opening and Rochester in the last 10 or 12 years.

And the, and the really sweet thing that I think you do is is you highlight the people and their stories of the connection of why they got into it.

That's the goal.

Yeah, for sure.

And, and it does come through.

And even someone like myself that doesn't drink, I have no interest in drinking alcohol.

And I still read them because of the people, you know, because that's, that's the fun part of the stories for me.

Yeah, it's.

And, and it's, it's interesting too because beer has become, you know, with, with, with Gen Z and some of the younger generations, like people are drinking less and less.

So you're finding some of these places that are, that are featuring more NA offerings and more ways that they can connect with, with new audiences.

Because you, you can't really build a devoted following just on focusing on one thing.

You need to make sure that you're offering something, a little something for everyone.

So like you go to like Strange Bird, we're talking about Chef Nate, but Strange Bird does their own house made sodas that are really cool.

Yeah.

You know, Jenny makes a, their NA beer that tastes like just straight up regular Jenny and they do a great job with that.

You see a lot of the breweries that are featuring other NA offerings.

Like one of my favorites is Knucklehead And Webster and, and Jake and Jesse were over there.

Do some really cool, just straight up seltzers.

They do this pineapple one that's like.

I think it was pineapple lifesavers anyways.

But, you know, I gave it to my 4 year old.

Of course it's probably straight sugar, but he's drinking, you know, this, this seltzer that's just basically like pineapple juice.

But you see, like, places that are doing things, you know, to attract new, new audiences.

And, you know, because you kind of have to have that focus if you're gonna, you know, survive in these weird times.

But so, yeah, like, the goal is always to.

To focus on the community.

The goal is to tell, you know, the stories of the people who are.

Who've worked their asses off, who have done, you know, make.

Made all these sacrifices to, to get to the point where they can, you know, chase after their dreams and, you know, spend years and years and years, whether it's, you know, government red tape or just any of this stuff, to even make this.

These dreams a reality.

So the goal is always to.

To write about the people.

And that's always kind of been the guided philosophy of most of the stuff I do.

Oh, the fat, stinky cat is she sneezes for some reason.

So she's got like these sneeze fits where she's like, that was like 15 sneezes in a row.

You're just like, you're so cute.

Why are you so gross?

I guess I could say that about my kids too, but same.

Yeah, I could tell that was a cat Cities before you even announced it.

I had a cat that sneezed like crazy.

Yeah, mine's nudging the.

My computer and microphone.

The.

The large obnoxious one is right there.

Oh, yeah, cat.

Just, just.

I don't know, whatever, cats.

But this wasn't my idea.

But they make my wife happy and we coexist, so it's all good.

Oh, there.

Nice.

That.

Look at that.

Yo, what's that cat's name?

Murray Corduroy.

Corduroy.

Awesome.

Okay, I like it.

Next time I get a cat, I'm naming it Wikipedia and calling it Wiki for short.

That works.

Anyone can steal that if they want.

That's one of my public domain ideas.

Although the other day my kid.

My kid busted out.

He's like, a good name for a dog would be cardio.

And I was like, whoa, that is a great name for a dog.

Yeah.

No.

Yeah.

But back to the beer.

I have about as much to contribute as Far as insights go, as I did to the police corruption conversation.

But I think my favorite thing about all the craft breweries as a non beer drinker is probably the artwork that goes on to them.

Yeah, there's like some wild artwork and some like really punishment punny names for, for beers.

And by far the one that stands out the most in my mind is the.

I don't think it's like technically craft brewery because I see it all over the place now is a, a beer that has the Edmund Fitzgerald on it, which is the, the ship from the Gordon Lightfoot song.

Yeah.

That sank in the Great Lakes.

My, my oldest son, one of the things he's really into is shipwrecks.

And, and there was a period of time where like I had to navigate Wegmans very strategically because if we walked by the Edmund Fitzgerald beer, he would flip out and throw a fit and want to know why I'm not buying him the Edmund Fitzgerald soda.

And one time, one time co worker of mine, like I told, told him that story and they're like, oh, okay.

And, and they brought me a bottle or a can or something empty of the Edmund Fitzgerald beer and I brought it home and immediately what happened?

My youngest, now all of a sudden, who expressed no interest previously in Edmund Fitzgerald beer, now is demanding an Edmund Fitzgerald beer bottle of their own.

And an epic fight erupted over the, the empty can of Fitzgerald beer.

The funny, funny part is that's a, it's a porter from Great Lakes Brewing in Cleveland.

And that's actually like one of the textbook examples of that beer style.

It's, it, that's a, that's a world class beer.

So you're, you're, you're a kid.

Has excellent taste.

Exactly.

So yeah, well, he's, he's, he's, he's.

It's also, for some reason locally, if you have kids, you're probably already aware of the train layout that Garden factory has every Christmas.

There is also a model box car that has the Edmund Fitzgerald beer logo on it.

And that's always the highlight of the, the model train layout too.

So this is also a model train podcast for those who didn't know.

Isn't there a library with the model train exhibit like on the, in the basement or something?

Yes, there's a.

So the Edgerton Community center over in.

Yes, Northwest Rochester.

Yes, they have.

It's the, Is it the train Club, Whatever it is, they've been around for like 50, 60 years, but they're only open like the final Saturday or Sunday of every Month.

We've, and it's, it's like a, there's a different diorama slash like exhibit for each of the four seasons.

You can do like a loop.

It's, it's really, really, really cool.

We went there last October when we early voted because you can vote anywhere you want for early voting.

And we, I try to kind of see different parts of the city when we early vote.

So I went to the community center, which is not terribly far from our house, and we're like, wait, the training exhibit's open so we got to go check that out.

And my, my 4 year old was transfixed.

It was really cool.

Yeah, we've been there quite a bit and it actually is relevant to your work on the Police Accountability Board because some like police chief back in the 50s was like, I've got an idea to keep kids away from crime.

We're going to start a really elaborate model railroad layout at the Edgerton Community Center.

And the more I read about it, I'm like this, this guy just wanted to do his train hobby on the clock at work using the public dime.

But here it is like you know, 60 years later and it's still there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hey.

So I, I alluded to at the beginning that you're kind of unique in this podcast because a lot of the folks we've had on, you know, they've, they got into hardcore at like 13 years old.

Some folks like got into hardcore, you know, years, decades or whatever before I did.

But you're someone who's like a relative newcomer to the genre, to the scene.

And for folks who follow you on social media, it's apparent to me at least and probably others that you're like an avid consumer of live, live music of all genres.

But I'm always curious, especially for folks who got into hardcore later in life, like, how did you come, come across this and what was the appeal?

Because for me, like the appeal was like I was an angry 13 year old whose childhood didn't go according to plan.

But what, what sort of psychological damage do you have that makes you like this, this kind of music?

I mean, besides being wildly depressed and therapy for a long time.

So I think I kind of came to it.

So I'm 41 now.

I think I came into it probably the last three years, probably somewhere, somewhere in that range.

But a lot of it was just a lot of my really good friends were like, you know, check this out, check this out, check this out.

And then kind of seeing like the energy of some of some of these shows and then, but just like, not, not just the energy, but like the, the genuine, like, care for Community is, is been one of the really, you know, it's like, like I, I was making the joke earlier, you know, the, the show at the Psychic Garden where I, I, I fell twice.

And, but it was, it was multiple people were like, you know, wanted to check on you, make, make sure I was okay.

And just so you know, it's the person who, it falls down in the pit and kind of things kind of calm down or slow down for a second just to, you know, help that person back up on their feet, you know, or someone loses their glasses or drops their cell phone or something, and everyone kind of slows down for a second to make sure that.

So we were talking about earlier just how important Community is to not only like, what I do in, in my beer writing, but it's really what's kind of guided me in this new phase at the place Accountability Board is either community building or reaching different parts of the community or making sure all parts of the community have a voice.

And, and what's really drawn me and pulled me into the hardcore scene is kind of that same, that same motivation.

It's that, what the is this cat doing?

I swear to God, they only do dumb, like when you're around, otherwise they're just going to sleep the entire time.

It's like, oh, hey, you're around here.

Let me.

Oh, it just pulled all of my wife's clothes off the line.

And so.

Yeah, and hardcore.

Yeah, it, it's.

I was, I've been drawn in because my wife has kind of termed it, you know, where we were talking about that.

She supported my journalism habit.

She also really supports me taking care of my mental health.

And she knows that seeing live music, but just getting out the community and kind of just interacting with people and, you know, meeting new people, making new friends or supporting friends, doing cool or just seeing as much music as possible.

Live music has kind of like, been a really great form of therapy for me, and the hardcore scene has kind of been an extension of that because it's just, it's also, it's, it's, it's wildly cathartic.

It's, you know, it's, it's, it's incredibly welcoming and, and inclusive.

It's, there's, there's so much history behind it that I've learned, like, so many, like, different schools and like, the different kind of offshoots.

Like, Rory has been really great for that.

Every time I listen to you guys, especially, like, the first few episodes where you were talking about, like, your first, like, your top five hardcore albums.

I, I like, wrote all those down.

Like, I would pause it and write those down.

And then, like, so I listen to, like, Shy Hallude or like, some of the, some of the stuff you guys pointed out that you were like, oh, this is something that I really like because this is nerdy or like, you know, this, this combines a lot of my interest.

So it's just been a really cool way to educate myself.

But I've been sucked in just because I, first of all, I think the music is awesome.

And I, I, I like the message.

I like, I just like the fact that I've met a lot of great people, and it's kind of strengthened some of the relationships I have with some of my oldest friends.

My, my buddy Zach Clickenwa, who was, I know Rory knows from, from back in the day.

He's an old Phelps, Clifton Springs, Mid Lake sky, as recommended.

He's one of my best friends in the world.

He's recommended a ton of really cool stuff.

Like, I was listening to Black Sheep Squadron the other day.

Old, Old Syracuse hardcore band, I think.

Syracuse.

I think that's who.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, like, just like.

And then another, another friend of mine is this guy named Ian Miller who plays bass in Kaloon Walled City.

Like, a really great sludge metal band that I love.

Great band, Great band.

Oh, yeah, I've seen them twice.

Didn't deliver.

Deliver them Seltzers or something.

Yes.

Ian's also sober guy, and so I did a seltzer trade with him when they played at the old Mohawk place in Buffalo.

And, uh, that was, I was terrible.

I was like, there was no one there.

Like, come on.

It's like, come on.

These guys are great.

Why is no one here?

Uh, it always makes you sad.

But so, yeah, the, the, the people.

But.

So Ian has recommended a lot of stuff.

He's introduced me to a lot of cool stuff.

Like, I had no idea who Fugazi was.

I had no idea.

Like, you know, just like, I, I, like, I listened to, like, third wave ska and like, some other random in high school.

Some like, like, kind of underground hip hop.

Like, stuff like that is kind of the stuff I was into.

And I kind of kind of ignored all of this metal hardcore stuff and just kind of rediscovering that.

And, but so, like, Chef Nate will text me, like, someone because he's.

Max is the same way.

Rory's the same way.

Zach's the Same way they'll like, they're like, hey, listen to these guys.

And then it's like trying to figure out like all the cross pollination between all these bands.

It's like, yeah, this guy was in this band with this guy and then this guy that left this band and is now in this band with this other guy who used to be in this band.

So it's just been.

And I still have no clue what the fuck I'm doing, but it's just been so cool to just kind of rediscover this stuff, you know, as a, as a 41 year old dad with the two kids on the edge of four and then to make my way out into the world and see these hardcore shows but then see like different generations of kids and old heads and like just.

I don't know.

It's been really fucking cool.

It's been, it's been a lot of fun.

Yeah.

Come for the music, stay for the community kind of thing.

For sure.

Yeah.

Your presence at the show has been, has been a bright spot.

I mean, there's a lot of bright spots.

Yeah.

But when you started coming out, I was like, oh, holy fuck.

I know, I know him.

He's.

He's like basically local famous.

Who's going to start showing up next?

Rachel Bernhardt.

But I could text Rachel and invite her to the next show if you want.

I don't know, she might not think it's cool.

I once co hosted.

I don't know if it was like, technically I was the co host, but she was like an emcee at a chamber of commerce event that I, when I was the president of the Gates Chili Chamber of Commerce.

Anyway, she seems like her politics align more or less with mine, so I'll, I'll give her a thumbs up for sure.

She's awesome.

Yeah.

And even if you don't agree with her, I respect the.

Out of her because she takes a stand, but she also does the research to, to educate herself on stuff.

And then she also does just a. I don't know why this has turned into Rachel Barner podcast, but does a really great job of shining a light on things that people aren't talking about.

Local government that, that they should be talking about, you know, when, whenever.

Yeah, I'm not gonna talk about Adam Bello and Joe Morelli and people, but we'll just leave it there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So.

But where were we?

I don't know.

I, I sidetracked like.

Yeah, okay.

Asking Rachel what the.

I think, I swear to God, this.

Cat Only waits until, until you're around.

And then, and then it's like, let me take this gigantic so you can watch me.

Like you need the audience.

Of course.

The other two cats are sleeping and, and the, the young annoying gigantic one who we call her Darth Kitty because she can't.

She breathes funny, but she could hear her coming because she's just wheezy.

It's, it's.

Anyways, cats.

So bringing it back to hardcore.

Yeah, you've been around for a while now.

What, what's your favorite.

What's your favorite hardcore band?

And then after that, what are your top 10 all time cat shits?

So I've, I've really enjoyed some of the older stuff.

Like I, I love American Nightmare.

I noticed you posted them on social media the other day and I was like, all right, you're going for the deep cuts now.

Yeah, I've been, I've been trying to.

I don't know, I just like, just.

I'll get recommended stuff.

But I've really enjoyed American Nightmare.

I've really enjoyed Shy Lewd like you like you recommended.

They've been one that I've come back to a bunch of.

Why am I drawing blanks now?

Of course I'm just gonna be like, like some of the newer stuff has been great.

Like it's been cool to see like Turnstile become like a thing and kind of do these wild shows.

Speed has been cool.

I've been enjoying them.

I've been enjoying things like Haywire when they were here in Rochester were wild and a lot of fun.

Missing link.

You know, Auburn guys are, are great.

We have some really great vocal bands.

Like the guys in Torrent I think do a great job.

Yeah, who decides?

And I always get Skyler and Rory's bands mixed up.

It's like who decides?

And then what's the other what's take?

Not take care.

What's taking meds.

No, I know taking meds.

I've seen taking meds a bunch.

Because I, I can tell you the first time I heard taking meds was top shelf.

The one Emo label used to do a sampler every year.

Oh sweet.

Oh wow.

Top shelf sampler.

And I was like, I was like, you know, listen to all hundred songs.

I'm like, that was one of the ones that stood out.

I'm like, oh wait, those like, those guys are from Rochester.

And then I was talking to Skyler a few weeks ago.

I actually interviewed both of his sisters way back in the day when they were skiers at Honey Forest Lima.

They were like, they swept sectionals or something that year.

I still remember I wrote.

I wrote like a really bad pun on sister act.

And yeah, it just shows you, you know, the, this, this, the smallness of the, of the roster community.

But like, Urban Strike has been cool lately.

I've been.

I saw Dog Pounds first show a few weeks ago and those guys were, were hilarious and so much fun.

And there's.

I don't know, there's just been so much cool stuff.

I really like Ceremony.

Like, I really like.

Yeah, I could just.

I feel like I should just like have the names in front of me because I just can't remember well because I just.

I've been like ping ponging between so much different stuff.

But there's been some really cool stuff.

And, and it kind of starts with like some of the late 70s, early 80s punk that I really like, like the Wipers and stuff like that.

That kind of leads into some of the, some of the hardcore stuff that kind of came after that.

But kind of like learning the, the history of all these different scenes and how some of the sounds are slightly different from.

From some of these scenes or like, you know, that's the DC sound or like, you can tell that those guys are from the West Coast.

Like, stuff like that has been cool, you know, like, I don't know.

It's.

It's been, it's been.

My wife will tell you, like, I get super, super nerdy about.

And when I get super dirty about something, I kind of want to learn as much as I can and kind of just get wildly obsessed with something until I find like, my next passion.

I always kind of had maintain the passions that I had, but I just kind of like keep like adding stuff onto it.

Like I was, you know, wildly obsessed with local graffiti for a while.

I remember that.

Yeah, I do some of that from time to time.

But I would, you know, go do urban exploring and try to find like, I could recognize, like, oh, I can.

I could see like that artist.

Like, I know exactly where that wall is because I've been in that building type stuff.

That was kind of like my pandemic activity.

Actually, one of the more fun articles ever for the DNC back in the day was I did a, a local public art graffiti article where I uploaded like 70 pictures, but I got to write about, like, my favorite spots.

So stuff like that, like, I, I'm now like obsessed with English soccer and like Hot Wheels and Like, just, like, really dumb stuff still, you know, gigantic baseball nerd.

But so just.

But hardcore has kind of been like that.

That same kind of idea.

And it's been fun, too, because there's such a rich local history of.

Of that stuff here.

So I think.

Really.

And I actually might have been, like, the thing that kind of got.

Honestly, the thing I got me Kickstarted might have been, like, the last Achilles reunion show at the Bug Jar.

Oh, wow.

Thank you.

Where, like, Zach got up on stage and I was like.

And started screaming with you, Rory.

And I got really excited about that.

I'm like.

I'm like, wait, is this the same guy who was a groomsman wedding, who was always, like, really quiet, Zen, like, what's going on right here?

Like, I did.

I did recognize that side of him because I know him through beer.

Right?

And yeah, because he was like.

He's like, you should come to the show.

I'm like.

I'm like, okay.

And, yeah, I don't know.

It's been great.

I've really, really enjoyed it.

Shout out to Zach, who also sang in a band called the Triumph.

He did, yeah.

Yeah.

I've actually never heard that, which is.

I should try to track down some of their stuff.

Do you have them on the.

On the.

I might have them on the SoundCloud.

Let me go look on the Rochester hardcore history.

SoundCloud.

So if folks don't know, Greg has put together, because he is a librarian, has put together historical, like, documentation of a lot of Rochester.

Yeah.

An archive of, like, a lot of Rochester bands, some that have.

Have been in the ether and only maybe put out a demo or cdr.

Oh, I do have the Triumph here.

There you go.

Boom.

There you go.

I'll send you this link.

It's right up there.

Yeah, yeah.

Was Sean Carney also in that band, too?

Yes, he played bass.

That's right.

All right.

Yeah.

Did he play bass or something?

He might have.

Yeah.

He was a bass player.

Yeah.

That's.

That's wild.

Yeah.

I remember playing shows with the Triumph or booking them.

I forget.

But either way, you know, Zach is a sweetheart.

Yes, 100%.

That's awesome.

And, you know, also, I love the fact that you highlighted the intersection of community and people.

It's like a common thread with.

With what you've been involved with.

With the.

Writing a new, you know, writing journalism, you know, that's about people highlighting stories, and then beer is also a connection to that people, and, you know, that intersects with.

With things that I'm involved with.

Like hardcore and punk and skateboarding and.

Absolutely.

And coffee.

You know, it comes back to people.

Um, yep.

And, and those things are just so enriching and important for us to, to have spaces, you know.

So it's awesome to hear that even at an older age, coming into it, you're recognizing, oh, this is a really cool and valuable thing.

And I think Greg can speak to this too.

Getting older and being in those rooms now is so cool to be able to do that.

When I was younger and there was an older person, I was like, what?

Whose dad is that?

Why is this person here?

It's not.

Doesn't feel that.

I don't feel that energy as much anymore, so.

Which is great to have older folks there and being able to also appreciate what's going on in those rooms.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

There's a lot of times like I'm not even the oldest person.

I mean there are definitely times where I am the oldest person and it feels a little weird, but it's like not as super weird as I thought it might have been when I was, you know, like in my teens and, and someone would show up at a St. Joe's show.

And I remember like, I think, I think one time like spa, that dude who, who worked at a record archive and was in lock or showed up at a standfast show and he, he probably was like 28.

And I was like, whoa, this guy's so old and he's checking out stand fast.

But it's not quite, not quite like that so much anymore.

Yeah, no, I've gotten none of that.

Like I, I was shopping with, with my, with this early four year old a few weeks ago and I, I going through the checkout line at Target, we ran into Kimbo.

Kimbo.

Kimbo.

Kembo plays that.

Yeah, thank you.

Kembo plays the Fatal Consequences and a few other bands.

I was like, I was like, were you a Fatal Consequences?

I felt like I'm like, I'm the 41.

You got 41 year old guy talking to the kid who's, you know, late teenager, early 20s.

I'm like, yeah, I just saw you guys, you know, play at the gym.

And he's like, he's like, oh cool.

And then I'm yelling at the four year old who's yelling at me because he was mad at me because I wouldn't buy the spider man castle that he wanted or whatever.

But just, but just like running into people like that as I up and forget people's names.

But, but, but like you said, community people.

It's it's, it's, it's been really cool, man, and just to be embraced by that, but just to make some new friends and just see some new spaces and, you know, excited about some of the shows that are upcoming.

And it works out well, too, because it's like, usually it's, I mean, it's not like the matinee shows you guys used to have back in the day, but, you know, it'll be like, I'll put it.

I have.

As long as it's in the family calendar.

My wife knows about it far enough in advance, you know, we can, we can make it work.

So it's been good.

It's been, it's been needed.

Has.

There's a lot of heavy going on.

Yeah, it's, I mean, the, the, the cathartic aspect of it and just, it's okay to have a space for that and to be joyful in a way that, you know, brings us some sense of self and care.

I mean, we got to fill our own cups up a little bit.

Common Thread is co hosted by Greg Benoit and Rory Van Grohl with creative support from Rob Antonucci.

Follow us on Instagram at Common Thread HX podcast for news and updates, contact us at commonthreadhxcpodcastmail.com Common Thread is a part of the Lunchadore podcast network.

Visit lunchadore.org for more information on other great podcasts.

SA.