A student called his school's AI policy "consistently inconsistent", different every period, different every classroom. That phrase is the reason this episode exists.

Brett Roer travels to Briarcliff Manor, NY for a live in-person crossover with Dr. James Kaishian, Superintendent of Briarcliff Manor Schools and host of Superkast. Around the table: English teacher Karen McCarthy, Computer Science teacher Chris Lo, and seniors Ava Wu and Noah Rinke. One conversation. Two shows. One very honest hour.

Brett runs the AI rollercoaster with the students, period by period, rule by rule, then the Spider-Man finger-pointing exercise with everyone in the room. Students point at teachers. Teachers point at the superintendent. The superintendent points in a circle. Nobody points at themselves. That diffusion is the gap.

Karen questions whether she's the right person to lead on this. Chris gave up on AI-generated questions because verifying them took longer than writing his own. Ava asks the question the whole policy debate keeps missing.

Brett's argument: stop downloading template policies. Get two pizzas, sit with your own community, and record the conversation. The wisdom is already in the room.

This episode airs simultaneously on AmpED to 11 and Superkast. Find Dr. Kaishian's show on Spotify and everywhere you listen.

James Kaishian: What's very interesting is I think we're on the a- avant-garde, the edge- Mm-hmm ... of trying to figure that out. Yeah. But we're still kind of lost in the swamp a little bit in terms of exactly, uh, you know, how to utilize it responsibly and how to ensure kids know the difference between responsible use and irresponsible use.

Brett Roer: Like, you just heard from a student their own internal dialogue that they're engaging with every day. Now, imagine we had asked that to 20 students, and then 20 teachers, and some other administrators. Now we're like, "Oh, that's where kids don't understand why or how they should use it. That's where we need to dig in."

Brett Roer: They all understand if you just generate it and hand it in, that's cheating. So now we know where the gray area is.

James Kaishian: Fingers are crossed anyway. Uh, and I wanna introduce, uh, the host of the AmpED to 11, uh, podcast, Brett Roer, who will be sh- who w- co-hosting today's episode. And I also wanna introduce the people who are here with me today. Uh, we have, uh, Ava Wu, who's a high school, Briarcliff High School senior, and we have Noah Rinke, also a Briarcliff High School singer, uh, senior.

James Kaishian: We are joined, uh, by Ms. Karen McCarthy, English teacher here at Briarcliff High School, and Mr. Christopher Lo, who is our computer science teacher here at Briarcliff High School. So Brett, why don't you introduce yourself and take away, take it away with the first question?

Brett Roer: Absolutely. First of all, such an honor and a pleasure to be here today.

Brett Roer: Thank you again for allowing me to be part of this special crossover episode.

James Kaishian: You know, since you're the guest- Ooh ... uh, here in Briarcliff, the co-host, guest, uh, why don't you start with the first question and kick things off?

Brett Roer: Absolutely. So again, um, this amazing school district here in Westchester County, New York, they are so innovative, and when I tell you, like, me and Versha, when we've come here, we say it's our favorite school we visited because it's just the vibes and the community, and just also the way they've renovated their space.

Brett Roer: And then staff, same question, and then superintendent, same question. Take it away, y'all. Uh, I

Noah: think it's a really just a great combination of everything that Briarcliff has. It's, I come in, I, for the first six hours or so of my day, I have classes, and it's not just a slog. It's teachers who are genuinely interested, teaching the topics, teaching me things that I genuinely want to learn, in a place where everyone feels really supported.

Noah: And then in addition to that, after I'm through the classes, I think it's lives as a community in addition to a place of learning. From clubs to theater, which is ... I'm heavily involved in, and all the other activities that while I don't take advantage of, I have many friends that do. It feels like there's a really great spirit of community and collaboration and just enjoyment.

Karen McCarthy: I agree. Thank you so much, Noah and Ava, Heard, your responses. I actually taught Noah in 10th grade. I have Ava as my editor-in-chief for Briars and Ivy, which is our award-winning literary arts magazine. And I do have to say that they are also just as equally impressive as, uh, members of society here, and they are little adults that actually can teach us every da- every day.

Karen McCarthy: So Noah was always tech supporting. Ava can figure things out with the technology. They really are so gifted in sharing the knowledge, and so it's like a really, a symbiotic relationship, I would say, between the teachers and the students. And so it's easy to love you all. I paid her to say that.

Chris Lo: You know? Uh, take on this challenge that I think is, like, pretty hard. They're like, "Okay, we'll do it together," and then they just figure things out, and I'm like, "Oh, that's amazing." And they often also present things in ways that I never considered, which is always a nice breath of fresh air. So then I take that and think about, okay, what other challenges can I put that will continue pushing their thinking into other fields, other subjects?

Chris Lo: I like to try to get other subjects involved as well because I think having context of learning through other subjects is very rich and powerful.

Speaker 7: Mm.

Chris Lo: And it just further cements all of the things that we teach them inside the classroom and outside the classroom.

Karen McCarthy: Yeah, and I think just to piggyback on what Chris just said is that learning is not in a vacuum, right?

James Kaishian: Yeah, and what I enjoy, I, I really enjoy what I guess has been articulated thus far is this notion of the relationships, the relationships between students and staff. Um, it's really a beautiful thing to watch. The ebb and flow and the struggle of learning and growing, uh, is a really beautiful dance. Uh, and I'm blessed to, to, to witness it every day.

James Kaishian: Uh, and I, I too find myself, uh, flipping from educator to student- Mm ... uh, and enjoying every minute of it. And it, you know, I know it's a cliche to say that, you know, you have great kids, you have great staff, you have a wonderful school community, you're gonna really have a high-performing school district.

James Kaishian: We do really have all th- those things coming together, so it's just my privilege just to be a part of it and to witness the great things that happen. Uh, some, some, uh, somewhat expected, and some utterly surprising. It's a, it's a beautiful dance every day.

Brett Roer: It's why everyone here says it's what fills their cup about coming here every day. The learning is obviously the mission and vision, but the relationships are what allow a community like this and others to thrive. So students, I'm about to ask you to answer a question, and then adults, I'm gonna ask you to react to their responses.

Brett Roer: Sound good? Okay. So something that's been going on in my head lately with middle school and high school students is, right, if they're a school like Briarcliff is empowering students to use AI thoughtfully and when appropriate. I'd love to ask you, I've been toying with this idea of what I call the AI rollercoaster.

Brett Roer: So either of you can start. Eyes are bulging over there of one of our students. Here's what I'd like you to do, without obviously naming anyone's names in the school, and describe for me your day, like period one, two, three, four. Like, what AI use are you allowed in each class? Or like what messages are you hearing from your teachers?

Ava: Um, so both me and Noah, we take AP Macro in first period, and I will say one thing that he's-- The teacher, Mr.

Ava: Bordonaro, he's really encouraged about AI, is using it to prepare for tests and using it to get multiple choice about, uh, the topics we're learning.

Noah: Yeah, I think I totally agree with that about first period. Then I think it gets into the more nuances, the more nuances or more confusing things. Uh- ... Mr.

Noah: Bordonaro is certainly one of the more clear teachers.

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm.

Noah: For example, some teachers I think my, I don't know if it's my second- period teacher. We have a, we have a-- me and Ava have a pretty similar class schedule. Miss Alfonso, I don't know if she's laid down any specific ground rules for AI usage, though my understanding has always been if you're not told to use it, generally stay away.

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm.

Noah: So it really goes up and down with a lot of-- I don't know, I don't know if you disagree, but in the middle periods- Yeah ... there's a lot more uncertainty about unspecified things.

Noah: Yeah.

Brett Roer: I- So first and eighth are pretty clear, it sounds like. Mm-hmm. And then the rest of the days would love to, yeah, sound bite. Um,

Ava: I would just like to talk a little bit about the eighth period AI usage during Spanish. Um, actually, so we had this grammar AI chatbot once where we practiced with grammar usage, and they asked us questions, and we would have answers.

Ava: But also, I remember there was an issue with that chatbot where it didn't really gl-give clear or even correct answers to some questions, so it wasn't as helpful a tool as we would've hoped.

Noah: Little bit of a tangent here, so to build off that, but I, I have found that across the board, language acquisition in Spanish is one of the least helpful uses of AI.

Noah: I find in more math, science-y classes, it's very helpful. I know, I think me and both, me and you both use it as a bit of a aid for physics a lot.

Noah: And it's very helpful. It's very accurate, and at the same time, when I try to use it for Spanish particularly, it is consistently- ... consistently inconsistent to itself with often errors.

Brett Roer: Amazing. Well, I'm gonna turn it over to the adults now. Just what are your thoughts or reactions to hearing that? Any insights that are surfaced from this podcast turned wisdom collection session?

Chris Lo: Well, I'm not surprised. I think the, the goal is to kind of figure out what AI use is happening in different classrooms.

Chris Lo: But I, myself, in my class, I have a pretty lax policy with AI use. But in some assignments I will state, I'll say, "You know why I wanna limit your AI use for this assignment? Because the goal of it is not for you to demonstrate to me that you know what you're-- like, what the facts are. I wanna see you Do it in person, and I will be spot checking you and asking you questions because I want you to struggle through it.

Chris Lo: Thank you for

Brett Roer: that insight.

Karen McCarthy: Uh, so I teach a couple of different courses. So in my English 10 Regents class, I really-- It depends on the assignment, right? So when they were writing their original myths, absolutely, you can use it to generate pictures for it. In fact, I wanna say that Mira Deswali was the first one to actually ask, like two years ago when you guys were in my class, if she can use it.

Karen McCarthy: And she asked permission, and I said, "Yes? I guess?" 'Cause I wasn't even sure. It was, the, the, the, the technology has evolved so quickly over the past two years when it was first introduced to the way it is today, where it's almost unheard of if you don't use it, right? So-- And there, therein lies the problem, is that I don't want them to fall behind with the technologies- Mm-hmm

Karen McCarthy: And so I spend a lot of time in the beginning of the, of the year going over, "Yes, this is, that's acceptable. No, this is not." And, you know, because the College Board is a behemoth, there have been situations where a paper has been flagged for AI- Mm ... even though we have caught it already here, and the student has addressed the issue.

Speaker 7: Mm.

Karen McCarthy: But it was still an issue that it, that College Board found unacceptable. But here's the other issue with that, is that the AI checks are not 100% foolproof. Mm-hmm. And so I've been experimenting with different ones. Mm. GPTZero, I, we have Turnitin. There's ZeroGPT. I mean, Mr. Lowe has done a ton of, uh, professional development on how to utilize it in a, in a way that the students can benefit from it.

Karen McCarthy: Mm-hmm. And so there is a lot of gray area. Mm-hmm. And I think that that's what we're really trying to ... It's like a learning curve right now for all of us, students and teachers. Yeah. And so, y- you know. But it is definitely something that can be a useful tool. So for example, in AP Calc, you can't know everything about everything, but they do need to find topics that are relevant, current, and something that they can solve.

Karen McCarthy: Yeah.

James Kaishian: I, I, and I like, I think like Chris, Lo, um, I'm not surprised at what I'm hearing. Mm. Uh, it is evolving, as Karen said. Uh, and, uh, what we do know is that, you know, it, it can be advantageous and it can be fraught. It is, it is consistently inconsistent- Mm-hmm ... as, as, as Noah said. Um, and yeah, it ch- it, it, it ebbs and flows in terms of clarity and lack of clarity with regard to what's expected, which is not a surprise, 'cause this is a human endeavor.

James Kaishian: Yeah. We're here in schools with people, and we're trying to figure this out. And what's, what's very interesting is I think we're on the a- avant-garde, the edge- Mm-hmm ... of trying to figure that out. Yeah. But we're still kind of lost in the swamp a little bit in terms of exactly, you know, how to utilize it responsibly and how to ensure kids know the difference between responsible use and irresponsible use.

Brett Roer: with their PTA president. Like, everyone is having the right kind of conversations here. So in that regard, I will say you're on the vanguard. And the fact that you're listening and students are able to openly say, "Yeah, we don't really know what to do in classes," and action is gonna be taken as a result.

Brett Roer: So first of all, I love that we're doing this in person. I don't know why I film this in my house normally. This is so much fun. Here's a ... I wanna try to recreate the Spider-Man meme where everyone points their fingers at each other. Everyone kind of remember that one?

Speaker 7: Yeah.

Brett Roer: All right. I'm not dated. All right, cool.

Brett Roer: So watch this. On the count of three, and if it's multiple stakeholders, you can use two fingers, if it's just one person. In your opinion, based on your role as a student, a teacher, or the superintendent, who's responsible for drafting the policy so kids actually know who should be do- what can they do in each class, and what's appropriate, and you as a teacher know what's right and wrong about flagging things and other such things?

Brett Roer: Uh, Ava, are you pointing at- I

Ava: was pointing to teachers.

Brett Roer: The, the teachers are responsible. Teachers, you don't have enough on your plate. Good, now you gotta also solve AI. And, um, one teacher is pointing directly at the superintendent, and his, her colleague. Okay. Yeah. And sir, you have-- You're just pointing down, meaning no one should address it?

Brett Roer: Everyone. Everyone. Okay. Everyone. Um, no one, I wanna note, pointed at themselves. Interesting. Whoa. But I really wanna note that, uh- I pointed at- That's-- I wanna note that's really what is-- makes this so circular, right? We haven't laid down these groundworks, and again, just having this conversation and having the luxury that it's being recorded, and taking this transcript, this really unsurfaces for a community like this how to move forward.

James Kaishian: So I, I, I guess the, the question is: how do you actually use AI, um, and where are the-- where is the line blurred? You know, if you can come up with a, a specific, a crossover or threshold where you're like, "Okay, I know I can do this generally speaking, but I'm not really sure, um, across the board when I'm g- when I might be u-utilizing it to too great a degree or going too far in my utilization of AI."

James Kaishian: Can you articulate what that might look like or where that might be in terms of expectations or assignments?

Ava: Kaishian. Uh, and I feel like it has real-really been helpful for that in explaining things. Um, but I also know the thing about AI usage is that you need to be able to learn how to do things without relying on AI, and I think when it comes to the actual doing, like solving problem sets and things like that, that's when you need to rely on your own skills.

Ava: But I think that's where I have the line for myself, but I rely on AI a lot to, you know, like, get that information so I can do things, I guess. Okay.

Noah: Absolutely agree with all your comments on the second teacher for physics. To more your point of where the blurred line is, I think one thing for me that I found about AI is it's surprisingly good at- Creative endeavors, like coming up with a catchy title for something.

Noah: I remember, uh, last year, if you remember our AP English language, we had a satire project. Mm-hmm. We had to write basically a creative satire. And fortunately, our teacher had very good AI clarifications and guidelines for that, so I was able to navigate that well. But I could very-- I could see how, you know, a project like that, when trying to be creative, I'm not quite sure how much AI can, I can use.

James Kaishian: And can I, can I, can I ask that same question of the teach- of the teachers here? So, you know, Karen, Chris, when you're, when you guys are, are utilizing AI in preparation, uh, for what you're doing in school, is there a point at which you're like, "Okay, that's a line I don't want to cross"? Is it clear? Is it gray?

James Kaishian: You know, could you describe that experience?

Chris Lo: Yeah, I'll start. Um, so like generating multiple choice questions for a test, I've played around with that, and it has generated some pretty convincing, uh, problems. But I'm a paranoid person, so I go over every single one of them and verify it myself, to which I've discovered this is too much work.

Chris Lo: Because if I was a student and I have access to AI in high school, I would probably be tempted to use it just to say, "I've done it," and, you know, it's completed, and I can get feedback later-

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm ...

Chris Lo: instead of using it to really try to work through it. Whereas as a teacher, I, I can't really escape with that because- I'm really making this for somebody else.

Chris Lo: So there's-- I create these little stories and location d- descriptions, but I have to also rely on myself being able to go off of what that is provided, and then I don't use it anymore 'cause I'm basically just telling the story. Uh, so I find that that's okay 'cause it's for the entertainment, and everyone's aware that I'm using it.

Chris Lo: I'm telling them like, "Hey, I might use this to generate something," but we are all gonna play through it, and we are g- we all are gonna contribute and generate the story, you know, naturally from these starting points.

Karen McCarthy: And, you know, I don't wanna s-say how old I am, but I've been in this game for 23 years, and so- Good years ... you know, I've seen that pendulum swing a couple of different ways, and this is just another-- it's an, it's progress, right? And I'm not going to deny it. I can't be an ostrich in the sand. But I also need to teach myself how to use it.

Karen McCarthy: I have to evolve with the students and with the technology. And if I know that my students are using it and I don't know anything about it, that's a problem for me because then I don't know how they're cheating or I don't know how they're utilizing it.

James Kaishian: And I would just take that just in terms of our responsibility as educators to work it's out there in the world, right?

Karen McCarthy: No, 100%. And, and, and I can go back to the fact that, you know, before calculators there were abacus, so- ... did we put the abacus people out of business? I mean, no. And the, I remember that my math teacher, when I was in elementary school, "Oh, you can't, what do you think you're gonna walk around with a calculator in your pocket?"

Karen McCarthy: So slow. No, you're gonna be--

Karen McCarthy: I mean, I remember Inspector Gadget. Don't get a smartphone. Well, Inspector Gadget, when Penny had that iPad and the watch- And we're living in Inspector Gadget now. We're living The Jetsons life right now. It's actually kind of crazy, right? That they foretold the future, and we're living the future now.

Karen McCarthy: And so if we don't evolve, then we're going to be dinosaurs, and we're going to be left, left in the dust. They also need to be competitive when they're out in the real world.

James Kaishian: Very competitive world.

Karen McCarthy: a long time, for a long time. I think I've been at this sh- 19 years now. 18 years I've been the advisor, and again, that even has helped in, in just the creation of product. And, and, and you know, Dr. Kaishian, you've been around just as long as I have. Mm-hmm. Maybe a little longer. So you have seen the evolution of our magazine and, and what it is today versus what, what it was 18 years ago, and it's simply because we've evolved with technology.

Karen McCarthy: Yeah. And I put the onus back on the students, and I take out my ego out of it- Yeah ... which is that I am not the smartest person in the room. I'm way slower than they are at the new technologies. They can teach us. And, and that is going back to that whole symbiotic relationship. It's empowering them to be the expert so that they can- They're native teachers.

Karen McCarthy: Yeah. Yeah. And they are. Yeah.

Brett Roer: So I love the idea that you ask people, "Where's that gray area for you?" Because now, like, instead of saying like, "Oh, we need to know when kids are cheating or not," et cetera, like you just heard from a student their own internal dialogue that they're engaging with every day. Imagine we had asked that to 20 students and then 20 teachers and some other administrators.

Brett Roer: Now we're like, "Oh, that's where kids don't understand why or how they should use it. That's where we need to dig in." They all understand if you just generate it and hand it in, that's cheating. So now we know where the gray area is. Let's dig into that. Let's get uncomfortable with that uncomfortableness.

Brett Roer: So that's one thing I just wanna say, and then I just wanna thank everyone for really, really articulating. Everyone just shared that based on their own moral compass. So like, you know, Ava, you like explicitly said, "Well, this is when it feels like I shouldn't use it anymore," right? Like it obviously was cheating.

Brett Roer: Now again, as our listeners have seen, these are just really upstanding young people. He even says, "And then I'll go back and learn it later on my own time." But not every student would do that. They might just do that first part, and I know that's what one of the teacher's pain points are. But I just wanna attribute that back to you 'cause that was like, you're right.

Brett Roer: In high school I would've without a doubt done that to preserve whatever sanity I needed or whatever struggles I was going on. If that wasn't the priority, then yeah, we'll figure it out later. Priorities, sports or other activities or other courses. So just wanna name that, and thank you for that question.

Brett Roer: Now, I don't know how it works on your podcast, but can I tell you a little tradition we have at our podcast? All right. All right. I have two traditions, so hopefully we get to both. We'll start with the first one. My favorite part of the episode, and you're ready for this, is we reverse the mics. We've been asking all the questions.

Noah: Starting with the student I guess I'll start off. Yeah. Sure.

Noah: All

James Kaishian: right. We've- Go get it, Noah.

Noah: Yeah We've talked a lot about where we are right now with this technology that's constantly evolving. When AI becomes the new iPhone, when it becomes the norm 20, 30, 10 years from now, where do you think you will be? How do you envision that evolving?

James Kaishian: Well, I think ... Wow.

James Kaishian: That's a huge question. I'm hoping it will be a force for good 10 years from now. I'm not suggesting it's not necessarily a force for good right now, but as this discussion has revealed, we're struggling to kind of figure out and understand really what it is, what its benefits are, and what its shortfalls are.

James Kaishian: right? As superintendent of schools, and you're all telling me that you have uncomfortabilities, and you don't have answers about those uncomfortabilities, right? So how can we clarify that so that we can really go at this as a school community, not just as a superintendent or an expert in the field or teachers, um, from a, from a restrictive perspective.

James Kaishian: But how can we go at this as it's an opportunity for us to engage together and come up with a Briarcliff solution for a problem that's affecting our school community. And so, um, the first step will be they'll be clear with, with re- with regard to, you know, what is responsible. The next thing is, is that we are not

James Kaishian: Um, in 10 years from now, you are going to be the CEO of a great company. Uh, Ava, I'm not sure. Maybe, uh, first chair at- I'm not sure either ... yeah. Anything she wants, honestly. Uh, anything. Both of you, anything you want. First chair at the Met. I'm not sure where we're gonna be, right? Maybe, yeah, maybe a Nobel Peace Prize winner, I'm not sure, in, in- Head of the United Nations

James Kaishian: in physics. Yes, head of the United Nations, right.

Karen McCarthy: President of the United States.

James Kaishian: There's no dest- final destination.

Ava: Oh, just to piggyback off that, you said you're gonna s- try to find more clarity and step into that. Um, just how soon do you see, like, guidelines for AI for both teachers and students, and are there any specific guidelines you already feel that you're gonna put into practice?

Ava: Oh boy, told you. She, she nailed it. She nailed it.

James Kaishian: This is awesome. This is the best podcast we've ever had. Yeah. You know what the funny thing is, Ava? What? The amazing thing is, is, is we, we started last year and created a document that we said, "Okay, this is gonna cover it." Now it is admittedly sort of, uh, we started with a document to guide this year.

James Kaishian: So we, we did that. That's hardly satisfying, Ava, clearly, right? So I think the, what's the next iteration? And I think the next iteration is, okay, now that we're a little bit wiser, now that we ha- we have great student and faculty input, and now that we have the help of outside experts and the superintendent is all over this thing, how can we, how do we, what's the next iteration of those guidelines?

James Kaishian: And I don't know the answer. I think the goal is to try to come up with, um, a, a, the goal is to try to come up with a document and then float that around and get our school community to weigh in on that, and that's, that's why, that's part of why these conversations are so insightful. So-

Karen McCarthy: All right. If we're talking about different demographics here, right?

Karen McCarthy: How do we get everyone to buy into this vision of yours?

Noah: If, if I may just add a little bit to that question. So one thing I've noticed a lot about AI is there's not only pushback ethically and morally about getting plagiarism and like, but there's a variety of other concerns. Think environmental- Mm.

Noah: Think plagiarism, not of your own work, but of the work that AI might be training on.

Noah: Images.

James Kaishian: Yeah. So I don't have the answers to the questions, but I think fundamentally that's what a policy needs to do. It certainly needs to protect, uh, intellectual property. It needs to, it needs to ensure that, uh, we're engaging safely with, uh, AI and with the, the products that AI can put out. Uh, again, a lot of it's determined by the intent of the user.

James Kaishian: Unfortunately, you know, uh, we have to make sure that we are in line in terms of what the expectations are. So how do you get buy-in? I don't expect that we're ever going to get to a place where every teacher is gonna utilize AI for the same reasons, and I assume your, your, your question was about the faculty specifically, right?

James Kaishian: So, uh, how do we, uh, create guidelines that allows for flexibility in an individually in the classroom- Autonomy ... yet we understand that we are all part of a system that needs to do two things. It needs to expose students to AI so they understand and recognize, uh, uh, when they're, when they're subject to it or how to utilize it in ways that are responsible.

James Kaishian: Um, and we have to create flexibility so people can approach it in ways that are advantageous to themselves. Yeah. Right? And so that's gonna be different for different teachers. Uh, we can, we can stereotype our English departments and, and, and places like that. Sure. Uh, but there are some-- We have some inc- but it's not, that would be doing a disservice to teachers, because we have some extraordinarily, uh, nimble people with AI, uh, across the academic spectrum.

Karen McCarthy: Well, if I could just one more add-on since now- And then we'll get Chris in ... has inspired me here. Yeah. So one- Chris will say that was him for us ... all right, dystopian view of AI use is that one day it will replace all teachers. There will be no jobs for teachers anymore because all they need to do is really sit in a classroom and have a, a monitor, if you will, but the AI will then be the teacher.

Karen McCarthy: Do you see that as... Okay.

James Kaishian: No, not at all. And I, I think the human connection is, is incredibly important. Can I envision an AI-generated sort of graduate pro- I, do I, am I in favor of? No. But can I envision, like, at the graduate level or postgraduate level- Mm-hmm ... you know? Yeah. I, I, I can, I can see online, there's-- I've engaged in online coursework where there isn't a person.

James Kaishian: That was the COVID- Oh, yes, yes ... epidemic, right? And, uh, I think we did exceedingly well as a school district during that time, and I still would qualify that time period as an abject failure-

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. Hmm ...

James Kaishian: for kids and families. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Um, and there are lots of reasons for that. I think we did the best that we could.

James Kaishian: Uh, and I think, you know, we kept students engaged. We never closed as a school district. That, that's all really amazing things to say, but it was still incredibly dissatisfying, and I still see the impact on students today. Um, not so much these two. They, they were, they, they got through it resiliently. Um, but I, I, I see, I see that input, impact.

James Kaishian: I, I-- that's how I

James Kaishian: see

James Kaishian: it

Karen McCarthy: I agree.

Brett Roer: Chris, what are your thoughts on all this?

Chris Lo: So I have a question Oh, okay. Sorry. To, to both hosts. Okay. And this is, um, a question I'm gonna go a little bit off tangent on. Sure. So as both of you who interact with other schools- Mm ... is there a prevailing atmosphere about AI use in schools?

Chris Lo: If there isn't, what trends might you see happening about AI use in schools? Oh, first of

Brett Roer: That's really what it just felt like in here- Mm-hmm ... so it was just really a wonder to see. The other thing, I just wanna give some credit to you, Karen, right? So you said something just now that is a trend. Like, what if we get it wrong, right? What you just described is the worst version, and I know this for two reasons.

Brett Roer: One, what did each of you say is the reason you like coming to school? The people. The Karen-- Yeah, the, this amazing community. The Karens. So the f-

Karen McCarthy: Let's bring them back

Brett Roer: No, no, we're not bringing that back. Um, so just think about that for a second. Like, one, if that happens, we failed, right? And I don't think it will happen as drastically as you said, but it might have some impact on the em- emotional side of education.

Brett Roer: Not everyone at this table agrees with probably any of the policies in this school. It doesn't have to be agreement. It has to be understanding and consensus that we all had input in stating it. So if we just found, like, the middle line between the five of you, and I said, "What should the policy be?" And you all looked at it, and you're like, "I don't love it, but it's good enough," like, that's all you need to get to.

Brett Roer: So I just want you to know, like, you all just asking the right questions to you all, you would be able to build your own AI policy, so just wanted to give you some credit there. So what's happening here is not the prevailing trend in education. This is what I wish would happen, is that people would honestly just open their door and do what we're doing now, and in 45 minutes, be able to probably put something out that's based on your values.

Brett Roer: Say, "Now just give us input on this. How far off are we on the barometer? And but here's a couple use cases or scenarios." That's really it. So, like, that's, that's moving, and I wanna give some shout-outs to there's some great ESCs in Indiana, some that led by Pat Haney, Shannon Cox at Montgomery County ESC.

Brett Roer: You're always gonna have outliers, and then just you gotta incorporate that too. You have to acknowledge it even if that's not the ultimate direction you go. That's the trend that I'm trying to find more of because it's not as hard as we're making it. We have all the, like once new research comes out that you shouldn't have kids under this age do it, or this is where learning takes place and where it doesn't.

Brett Roer: Yeah, just keep using AI and refining it, saying, "Based on the latest research, we're making this decision." That's it. Um, I really just wanted to expound on that just to get you off the hook because y'all gave such good questions. But that's honestly what I see as the biggest trend that I wish was happening more.

Brett Roer: And once we understand w- who, like who can use it, when they can use it, why they can use it, and how they can use it, you've come up with these answers a million times for every other thing that revolves around education. You'll be able to do this.

James Kaishian: Um, but, you know, I, I'm a little concerned about the fact that I can't go in my typical circles and ha- and, and, and get answers to questions, or even have a dialogue such that we're having here about, you know, where do we need to go and, and how do we ensure that whatever po- policy, uh, we adopt, that it, it works for this school community.

James Kaishian: Uh, I th- I, I see a very traditional sort of approach to this, to lock it down, make sure it's safe, make su- you know, uh, uh, uh, software, uh, that can detect it, and, and an over-reliance on that to some degree. And then I also worry about those who are sort of ignoring the reality that regardless of what policies you have in place, you'll have kids using it, period, full stop.

Karen McCarthy: I, I, I actually kind of see this as like a, a metaphor, right? So I, I really kind of think about like Mercedes-Benz. That's where I actually started off my career, and they were always at the forefront. They were the pioneers, and they were the innovators. They were the first ones to come out with these safety technologies.

Karen McCarthy: And because they were always the pioneers, they also had to take the brunt of these are the mistakes that we learned- Mm ... that the Toyotas and the Hondas can borrow. They are the ones who sit back, and then they wait for the pioneers to do the dirty work, and then they just improve upon it. And so to me, I see us as the Mercedes-Benz- Ooh

Karen McCarthy: Like if you dream it, it can happen. And I think that really, that's what I-- That's why I don't- Like, I don't look-- I don't dread coming to work. I really can't wait to get to work every morning because it's like, what new thing can we, what new thing can we create today? Yeah. You know, we're always evolving, always learning.

Karen McCarthy: The Mercedes-Benz of schools.

Brett Roer: That's a good branding title. Chris, one thing I wanna just add on what you just said. You said, 'cause we're outside of the district, like I'm outside of the district, what am I seeing when I go to other places, right? But I, I hope you're really taking one thing away from this listeners and also this community is that like, I'm continually urging you, you don't, don't look outside, look inside.

Brett Roer: All, all I needed to say was, "Go get two pizzas and put-- let's, let's record your kids," and everyone in the room found that very insightful. But it was turning it inward, not outward. You can always literally, any AI tool now could just take whatever frameworks you think or you're comfortable with and all your board policy.

Brett Roer: Some people have what, what period's next? Fifth period?

Speaker 7: Sixth.

Brett Roer: Sixth period. Oh my gosh, I got that quiz I gotta study for. So we're gonna get you out on this. One thing we like to do on the Amped 11 podcast, and I'm sure this is something that you also recognize as important, is giving flowers, right? So we always like to ask people, talk good about somebody behind their back, right?

Brett Roer: If you-- The people that are either currently supporting you, and it doesn't have to be people in this room, but like who should people out there know are doing something really incredible? It could be your family, it could be your s- a classmate, a student, whoever in your life that people should know about 'cause they're doing something really meaningful in either education or just having a great effect on the world.

Brett Roer: Anyone can start.

Noah: We had, I believe, at least a period and a half of here's what I'm using for AI, here's what you were allowed to use AI with specific examples, class discussions. And I think, as I mentioned, when I later went into a project where I wasn't sure where the line was, I was able to draw back on that and really feel much more confident with how I was using it and how I was navigating these issues

Karen McCarthy: I'm gonna shout out Chris Lo right here next to me, because he really is a- at the forefront himself.

Karen McCarthy: But it- am very knowl- and you know, I just, you fill my cup with knowledge, and I appreciate you. Thank you.

Chris Lo: That's really sweet. Wow.

Chris Lo: Well, I, I do like to give flowers, um, to everyone. I know that's a cop-out answer, but honestly, I do feel like, you know, I w- I work in an amazing district. And with, with everything that's going on in the world, this is like the best place to be for- Mm

Chris Lo: trying to, you know, develop yourself and find support with not only your faculty, but your staff and your students. And it just, there's just so much warmth. Not from the HVAC, but ... Oh, HVAC burn. You can

Karen McCarthy: come to my classroom if you're cold.

Brett Roer: Over the flowers.

Brett Roer: Classic.

Chris Lo: We wanna create a, you know, a culture of understanding and productive struggle. And that comes in so many different forms, but knowing that we're all in this together, I think it, it's just something very special I don't see very often outside. So I'd like to, if I could, offer a bouquet to every single person.

Chris Lo: Wow.

Brett Roer: Okay. Well first, Karen already, you know, gave you some flowers. I'm gonna give you some flowers because, again, not just yourself, but everyone so far, AI can't replace all of the feelings you just mentioned. And also, I wanna push people, AI could complement or give you more of that if there's ways for AI to, to, you know, t- things that are time-consuming for you.

Brett Roer: It could be the reason you have even more of that time and feeling, not just you, but others. So just wanted you to thank you for sharing that. It's, it really is about the community yet again. So just thank you for those words of wisdom.

Ava: And I feel like it's really difficult to be one of those per- one of those people who has this moral compass where you won't use AI for like specific things or basically anything at all because you feel that it's wrong. And I would also like to give a shout-out to my old taekwondo master instructor- Yes

Ava: because she was someone who really stood up for her Belief-- She's a writer also, and she really believed that using AI is not good, and I really-- I think that's just really admirable that she is able to stick to her beliefs in a time where everyone's using AI

Brett Roer: Could you say their name one more time, please?

Ava: Savannah Glab.

Brett Roer: And, like, especially if that teacher is, you know, ignorant to that, you are trying to authentically learn and produce at a masterful level, and they can easily do that now, and y- the, the advantages of the time and et cetera. That was really raised here a few months back where, like, that's what students are dealing with.

Brett Roer: That's a really big internal conflict to know, like, no one has a rule, so therefore I have to judge myself, but if I fall behind because of that, did I make the right moral choice? Like, that's what students are literally just encapsulating, so I just wanna say thank you for raising that and for giving great flowers out.

Brett Roer: Last but not least.

James Kaishian: Um, and, uh, what, what he, I think he was referring to was the fact that, uh, before I understood even what it was, that I was differentiating my approach in the classroom based on, you know, what students were, uh, presenting me as prior knowledge. So this is a kid who was really bright and somehow wound up in a new school in, in a class.

James Kaishian: And, and, uh, just to give you a, a sense of how far things have come, uh, I was teaching in the Bronx, and there were 16 sections in this eighth-grade, um, uh, cohort that I was with, and they were ranked by their ability.

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

James Kaishian: And I was eight, I was 816.

Speaker 7: Mm-hmm.

James Kaishian: So I went in as a young teacher being told that these are the worst of the worst, and these are the, you know, um...

James Kaishian: and survive till the next. Um, um, so, uh, that's been an inspiration to me, uh, ever since. Uh, and I, I, I, I shudder to think about how much I had to learn- Mm-hmm ... uh, that first year and, um, I'm just-- I'm grateful that my journey has led me here.

Brett Roer: Uh, it was very poignant and, you know, that's one of the things maybe we get away with AI, we do a little less experimenting on, you know, for example, the most vulnerable parts of the population, students You know, medical field.

Brett Roer: So hopefully we get it right and, you know, you have a little less damage done as a first-year teacher, which we've all been through. Well, I'm gonna close this out with some flowers. I'm gonna give it to someone who's just off camera over there, our birthday girl in the room, Chief of Staff, Versha Munshi-South.

Brett Roer: So to have someone who acknowledges that is one of the most funny and practical people about how to kinda get me back on track or task, which really good classroom management skill. Much appreciate that. And I'm just so honored that I have someone who just cares so deeply about some of the misjustices in education in society, and she wants to put her values forth.

Brett Roer: She wants to learn. She's constantly trying to learn something new to make chaos, to make sense of the chaos that is the work we do and just the state of education in society. So just a major, major bouquet of flowers, and to her family, Zuzu, Kieran, spoil this lady rotten on her birthday today. And I just wanna thank you all.

Brett Roer: It is the exception.

James Kaishian: Thank you very much. And thank you for all your help with the district as well. And, and thank you to our students. Thank you to our teachers. You guys are amazing today. Thank you. Uh, thank you for putting me in the hot seat. I hope I answered your questions well. Um, but, uh, I real- this has really been a, a, an enjoyable experience, but a very informative one, so thank you.

Brett Roer: And we still got three minutes till period six. We did it.

James Kaishian: Right. All right. Thank you

Brett Roer: all. Let's go. So let's have a great day. Let's go. We have to. Oh, don't forget. Don't forget your swag. Oh, yeah. They have T-shirts. So for our AmpED to 11, uh, community, we don't have them yet, but we should. And can you just say one more time, just, like, how can people learn more about the amazing work you're leading at Briarcliff, and how can they learn more about where to find your podcast?

James Kaishian: Yeah, so, uh, my podcast is, uh, Superkast. It can be, it can be located on Spotify or anywhere you get your, your podcasts from. So Superkast, uh, with a K. Um, and yeah, we, uh, we engage in interesting conversations with interesting people around the district and around the region. So, um, it's really been a wonderful opportunity.

James Kaishian: So tune in. Uh, this is a great, great episode. Thank you. Thank you very much, Brett. Thank you.

Brett Roer: us. Have a great day, everybody.