Many organizations are built around the assumption that problems can be analyzed, controlled, and solved through cause and effect. That assumption works well when the problem is clear or complicated. It is far less useful when the problem involves people, culture, leadership, relationships, change, or uncertainty.

In this episode of Work Matters, Thomas Bertels speaks with Boudewijn Bertsch about the Cynefin framework, developed by Dave Snowden, and how it helps leaders make sense of different types of problems. Cynefin distinguishes between domains such as clear, complicated, complex, chaotic, and confused. Each domain requires a different way of thinking, deciding, and acting. Boudewijn explains why the dominant management narrative has been shaped by the industrial revolution and the machine metaphor. As a result, many organizations try to force complex human problems into ordered systems of control, accountability, optimization, and best practice. But when the challenge is complex, context matters, outcomes cannot be guaranteed, and leaders need to learn through safe-to-explore experiments.

The conversation explores what this means for AI adoption, performance management, leadership, organizational change, and the way we treat people at work. Thomas and Boudewijn discuss why people are not simply resources, why fear undermines experimentation, why leaders need to open collective intelligence, and why the work of management increasingly requires facilitation, sense making, and the ability to navigate uncertainty.

Ultimately, this episode is about learning to diagnose the type of problem before choosing the solution. In a complex world, the answer is often not something a leader already has. It is something the organization discovers together.

In this episode, we discuss:

• What Cynefin is and why Dave Snowden describes it as a framework, not a model

• The five Cynefin domains: clear, complicated, complex, chaotic, and confused

• Why modern management is shaped by cause-and-effect thinking

• How organizations accidentally make complex problems worse by forcing them into ordered systems

• Why leadership, culture, relationships, and human performance are complex

• How to use safe-to-explore experiments in complex environments

• Why fear, punishment, and traditional accountability can block experimentation

• How AI adoption can be approached through multiple experiments and learning loops • The limits of performance reviews and linear rating systems

• Why organizations need to lead interactions, not just individuals

• How leaders can use collective intelligence to make sense of complex problems

• Why leadership style should depend on context

• What to do when a team is confused or facing chaos

• How to get started by asking better “we” questions

Key themes: Cynefin, complexity, sensemaking, leadership, management, organizational culture, human complexity, safe-to-explore experiments, collective intelligence, performance management, AI adoption, accountability, uncertainty, organizational change, complex adaptive systems

Memorable idea: In complex work, the answer is not something leaders can simply analyze their way toward. It is something people discover through context, collective intelligence, and safe-to-explore experiments.

Guest Bio:

Boudewijn Bertsch works with individuals, teams, and executives on how to bring out the best in themselves and others. Trained as a business economist and sociologist, he draws on neuroscience, systems and complexity science, somatics, evolutionary psychology, and biology to help leaders work more effectively in complex environments.

Over the past 35 years, Boudewijn has worked with leader around the world. He is a certified somatic leadership coach, a former assistant professor at Erasmus University Rotterdam, and a longtime executive education faculty member and advisor to organizations. Boudewijn is co-editor and contributing author of Cynefin: Weaving Sense-Making into the Fabric of Our World.

Connect with Boudewijn: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/boudewijn-bertsch-3b79a54a/

Cynefin Wiki: https://cynefin.io/wiki/Main_Page

The Cynefin Co: https://thecynefin.co/

Book: Cynefin - Weaving Sense-Making into the Fabric of Our World https://thecynefin.co/library/cynefin-weaving-sense-making-into-the-fabric-of-our-world/

00:00 Why Complexity Matters

02:02 Cynefin Explained

02:40 Five Domains Overview

06:07 Diagnosing Problems at Work

09:29 Safe to Explore Experiments

11:36 AI as a Complexity Case

15:33 Humans Are Not Machines

19:56 Rethinking Accountability

23:43 Tools for Collective Sensemaking

24:33 Sensemaker and Triads

30:19 Leading by Context

34:28 Confused and Chaotic Domains

39:48 Getting Started with Cynefin

42:29 Complexity in Healthcare

46:00 Closing and Takeaways