You may be sitting there asking, "Marley and Ellen, do you really need a whole dang episode devoted to inclusive rides? In the ABOB, we all fam!"
But the answer is YES! The more people who understand the work behind the scenes to create, foster, and protect these inclusive spaces should be shared. So we brought on two resident experts, Eli Kosko and Jacob Sheppard-Saidel, to talk through how they've created purposefully inclusive groups. They share their tips, experiences, and spreadsheets to help the next generation of organizers open their spaces to all.
Jacob Sheppard-Saidel is our All Bodies on Bikes chapter leader for Western Massachusetts. Follow @abob_westernmass (which also has details to join their Sugar Shack ride on Sunday, March 9!)
Eli Kosko is our All Bodies on Bikes chapter leader for Albuquerque. Follow @abob_abq to join up, and for details about their upcoming onramp series.
All Bodies on Bikes events, rides, and information for our 15 nationwide chapters can be found on our website, https://www.allbodiesonbikes.com/events
Transcripts
Marley:
All right.
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I think we're recording.
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Ellen: I think we're recording.
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We are.
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We're for sure recording.
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How are you Marley?
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Marley: I am freezing.
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How are you?
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Ellen: Same!
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It has been, it's been a really fun
couple of weeks to be on international
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calls because it doesn't get as cold
as it does here in Kansas City, and
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so when I get on and I'm like, here's
my Fahrenheit temperature, and then
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I convert it into like mega negative
Celsius, they all just lose their minds.
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Marley: I was talking to somebody
about it today, how I just
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haven't really gone outside.
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And they're like, but wasn't it
cold when you lived in Seattle?
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And no, we would have weeks where
it would be like a three degree
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temperature variation, usually
in the forties and fifties.
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And I like that.
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It's, it's a wet cold,
but it's better than this.
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Like it was six degrees the other morning
when I went to take Daisy Mae out.
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It was, it was wild.
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Ellen: but you've been riding pretty well.
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Didn't I see you get out the other day?
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Marley: I did, and I actually, I
just went to the coffee shop on
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my bike, so I, I know that for my
mental health, I have to get fresh
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air, and it helps that it's sunny.
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It's But I hate it, and I'm,
I've worn base layers more than
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I ever have in my entire life.
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I don't ever wear them,
and now I live with them.
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Ellen: Yeah, that's fair.
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I am sitting at my desk with
a heated blanket on my lap.
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So,
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Marley: Well, we're not here
to talk about the cold, and
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Ellen: we're not,
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Marley: is shaking their heads at us
because I think they really love the cold.
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Let's get on with the show.
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Ellen: let's do it.
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We're going to talk about
leading inclusive rides.
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And
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2 of our All Bodies on
Bikes, wonderful leaders
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Marley: But you might be saying like,
okay, how to lead an inclusive ride.
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That's like all bodies on bikes.
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One on one.
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Like, do we really need a
whole podcast about this?
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But honestly, yes.
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I think a lot of us have had the
experience where we go to something
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that they say is an inclusive
ride or as an inclusive event.
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And then you're like, I don't feel
welcome or included here or I've
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been dropped off the back or this
is not a welcoming space and Wanted
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to bring on Eli and Jacob today.
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They are two of our chapter leaders who
also just have a ton of experience in
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other parts of their lives in cultivating
inclusive spaces and wanted to talk about
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like what actually goes into making An
event or a ride inclusive and obviously
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this is gonna have like a bike slant
to it and talking about bike rides But
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I think what we're gonna talk about is
applicable to other types of activities
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So let's read their bios real quick
because these are some folks that are
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awesome And I want to tell you about
them more than just inclusive rides.
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So I'm gonna read Jacob's Do
you want to read Eli's Ellen?
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Okay, Jacob Good start Jacob.
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Why can't I say your name?
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What is happening?
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Ellen: That's Jacob.
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Marley: Thank you.
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It's because I'm smiling.
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Seeing their face makes me smile.
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Jacob Shepard Seidel, they, them,
is a passionate advocate for
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sustainable transportation and
outdoor recreation for everyone.
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They have over a decade of experience
facilitating and cultivating community,
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leading outdoor events, and creating
outdoor opportunities for all.
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Jacob works at the Venture Out Project, a
non profit creating spaces for queer and
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trans folks to access outdoor adventure.
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Outside of the office, you can
usually find Jacob on a bicycle,
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at a swimming hole, or in a tent.
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Or, you may find them at one of the
many events they host as a leader of
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the All Bodies on Bikes chapter in
Western Massachusetts, where they're
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building inclusive community for all
people to move their bodies joyfully.
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Beyond all of their outdoor advocacy,
Jacob loves to cook, play music,
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take photos, and play games.
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Welcome to the show, Jacob.
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Jacob: Thank you so much for having me.
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Thanks for that introduction, Marley.
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I couldn't have said it better myself.
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Marley: That was a great bio.
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I might copy it for myself.
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Ellen: right.
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I thought you wrote your own bio, Jacob.
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Like.
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Marley: They did.
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Jacob: Marley did a lot
of really good research.
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Yeah,
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Ellen: Well, I'm very excited
then to introduce Eli Costco.
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They them is a bike nerd extraordinaire
and integrates their love of
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bikes into all aspects of their
life as a recreational writer,
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professional bike mechanic and safe
routes and infrastructure advocate.
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They find the power and joy of bikes
and everything they do and strive to
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share that as far and wide as possible.
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Eli works at the Esperanza Bicycle
Safety Education Center, Albuquerque's.
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fee free bike shop and
bike education facility.
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Eli loves spending all day outside
on a bike, sharing in that joyful
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movement with others, empowering
other riders with the skills they need
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for their bike maintenance journey,
sharing knowledge, and helping
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others find their own bike joy.
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They practice this joy not only
professionally, but through their
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volunteer work with All Bodies on
Bikes, Bike ABQ, and Bikepacking Routes.
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You can typically You can typically spot
Eli riding any off road, gravel path,
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commuting by bike, spending time walking
and hiking with their dog Kingsley, and
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living out their second career on stage
as a percussionist timpaniist in various
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orchestras and bands, which is so cool.
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Hi Eli.
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Eli: thanks.
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Yeah, thanks for having me.
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I don't have any funny
quips like Jacob did.
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I did write that myself.
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Marley: It's great, and I can
attest to the fact I've seen Eli
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play the drums and they are very
good at it and very fun to watch.
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So
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Eli: thank you.
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Marley: yeah, welcome to the show you two.
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Thanks for taking the time to do this.
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So I'm going to start
with a really hard hitter.
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Why do inclusive rides matter?
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Like, is this just like a feel good
thing that we do because we're a bunch of
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softies and want everybody to feel good?
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I
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Ellen: Obviously yes, end of episode.
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Marley: Maybe I should answer that.
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Ellen: Okay.
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Eli: of being interested in bikes, i'm
like, let's go I can get you there.
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So for me that can be literally anyone,
even people who don't currently have a
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bike, and that's why inclusivity matters,
because I don't want somebody to be like,
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Well, I thought about riding, but, I don't
look like those people, or I don't ride
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as fast as those people or whatever it is.
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And so it's like, no, no, you can do it.
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Jacob: Yeah, I I also secretly, not so
secretly, have the same agenda as Eli.
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Of getting everyone out on bikes.
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and, I think it matters for
a bunch of different reasons.
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I think there's a, like, really internal
element to this, which is the, like,
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transformative properties of outdoor
recreation and outdoor adventure.
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And I think it's really valuable to give
everyone an opportunity to access that.
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It doesn't mean that this is necessarily.
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The activity that they will stick
to or that outdoor adventure
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will be transformative for them.
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But I think for so many of us, we found
it so meaningful and yet providing those
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opportunities and allowing people a way
in from whatever background they're coming
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from, I think is extremely important.
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Marley: about
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Jacob: things, I think.
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Ultimately, the more people on bikes, the
better for, for so many other reasons.
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Thinking about safety of all of us on
bikes, the more people that ride bikes,
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the more bike infrastructure that exists,
the safer it is for everybody, the more
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access there is for people that aren't
already like really motivated, hardcore
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cyclists to ride their bikes places.
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And then that, snowballs into climate
action as far as the longevity of us
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living on this planet Earth as human
beings, which you know, I, I say tongue
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in cheek, but is like a extremely serious
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Marley: a very real thing
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Ellen: for
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Jacob: out of a car for,
for their trip across town.
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It's it's a win.
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And bike lanes do that.
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Other bike infrastructure does that
more, places to park your bike,
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more bike lanes that are safer,
protected, connected bike routes.
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So it's not just one
lane on one busy road.
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And then what do you do from there?
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And, and the fact of the matter is that
more people on bikes means that there's
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going to be more bike infrastructure,
which makes it safer for more people
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to get on bikes and out of their cars.
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It means that more drivers are going to
be aware and looking for bikes, which
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then makes it safer, so more people
can get out of their bikes and onto
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their cars, or out, excuse me, out
of their cars and onto their bikes.
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Yeah, I really want to make
sure people get onto their cars.
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Ellen: Just get on and
rail against the man.
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Like, stand on your hood.
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Jacob: Exactly, yeah
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Marley: group rides can be like a gateway
drug to more like outdoor recreation,
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like using your bike for more adventures.
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At least that was my case.
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Like I, I started commuting, but
I really got into bikes once I
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started going on social rides
and I felt like I had community.
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But on those rides, it also like.
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Taught me how to ride safely in the
city and how to navigate and opened
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up this world to me that like, if
I would have been just writing by
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myself, I wouldn't have been nearly
as adventurous and exploring.
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So I think that's another big benefit
to inclusive rides is it shows that like
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biking across the city is possible or
biking to a park or biking to, wherever
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your group ride might be going I think
can be really helpful for folks who
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maybe have never considered biking
is like a mode of transportation.
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Eli: Yeah, I, I resonate with that.
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When I moved to Albuquerque a little
over two years ago, I was pretty nervous
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to ride around in a new city, like ride
around on the streets and mostly stuck to
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the trails until I started attending some
group rides and using that to like learn
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just the different safer routes and things
that aren't necessarily on Google Maps
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and being able to feel like I could
navigate my new city more safely and
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the ways to use public transportation
to connect those things as well.
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The group rides really,
really helped that.
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I was already a really avid rider, but
There's always that nervous thing and
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and now I try it like if I'm traveling
I'm like going on a group ride somewhere.
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It's like a nice way to check out a city
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Marley: yeah, love that.
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What defines an inclusive ride?
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Like, are there some hallmarks or
like characteristics of these rides?
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Jacob: yeah, that's a, that's a
really hard hitting question, Marley.
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I think and, and honestly, it is because
it really cuts directly to the core of,
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of what it is that we're talking about.
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And I think there are elements that
are like at the outset really easy to
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identify and then some elements that
are really soft and you have to feel.
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I think number 1 that no one is dropped
that no one's gets left behind on the
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ride is if it's a really good indicator.
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If someone gets left behind,
it's not an inclusive, right?
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I think other elements are that there's
really clear information about what to
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expect on the ride, that there are leaders
that are making everyone feel comfortable
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and welcomed and safe, that, there isn't
any, aggression or, upsetting behavior
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from any of the participants on that ride.
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Yeah, and then there's also
soft things just like you show
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up and you feel welcomed there.
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I mean, I think that's one of these
biggest soft elements of an inclusive
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ride is that, whoever you are, Wherever
you're coming from, you're able to join
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and you're able to feel like this space
is safe for me to be in, and as you're
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thinking about this event, , you're not
thinking, oh, am I allowed to be here?
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Do I have the right equipment
or the right experience?
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Or, the right kind of body or any of these
things to, be able to attend this event,
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your questions might be like, oh, I can
see really clearly how fast the ride is
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going to be and how long it's going to be.
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Do I feel like I'd be able
to do that and have fun?
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Will I be included in this experience.
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Eli: All of those things
really hit home for me.
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Adding onto the sort of the soft skills
portion of it is not only am I welcome
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at this place, but do I feel comfortable
to be fully myself when I arrive at this
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ride, whether that's on the bike that I
love riding every day and the clothes that
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I ride in, dressed exactly how I dress and
don't have to hide any portion of myself.
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Which has a lot wrapped up in it for me
and for other riders and stuff like that.
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So beyond even the technical skills
needed to do a ride, is this a space
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where I'm going to be like, Nobody's
going to look twice at me or nobody's
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going to look twice at some of the
participants coming to my ride.
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And then in terms of like, not only are
the ride leaders being welcoming and
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engaging with people attending, but is
everybody there engaging with each other.
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Is everybody feeling like, I can
get along with all these people.
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I can make a conversation and meet new
people at any given time on this ride.
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Jacob: I totally resonate with all that
and thinking as well about the kind of
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cultivation of that community where,
everybody in that space feels welcomed
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in and someone new can join and they
will feel welcomed in and yeah, everyone
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feels totally able to bring, their full
self, whatever that looks like to them.
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I think those are like
really powerful points.
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Marley: Yeah, I think Jacob, you make
a really good point of, would somebody
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new feel comfortable joining this ride?
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I think those of us that identify
with all bodies on bikes.
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We've had that experience where we've
been left behind or didn't feel included.
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And so thinking about what I invite
a friend who's newer to riding to
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this ride is a benchmark for me
of, is this ride inclusive or not?
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Ellen: Yeah.
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What I heard too is the group that is
there is as much responsible for creating
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that atmosphere as you are as the leader.
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So it's your job as the leader to
say, this is the space that I want,
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and this is how it's going to be,
but also then putting some of the
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responsibility and the pride in
that feeling from the whole group.
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Jacob: I think that's something that
a good leader, a good cultivator of
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spaces like this can really do well they
can really set the tone and expect the
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rest of the group to follow through.
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Community norms through,
facilitation skills.
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Yeah.
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Marley: That was basically what I was
going to say, but one thing we try and
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do with all bodies on bikes when training
our chapter leaders we just trained
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a whole new cohort, but is to really
emphasize that the leaders set the tone.
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Not just in welcoming this, but in
terms of like safety, behavior norms,
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how we communicate with each other.
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So yes, it is on the participants,
but it's usually not hard.
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If you as the leader, set the tone that
we're gonna be friendly, we're gonna
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smile, we're gonna welcome folks, we're
gonna say, Hey, I'm so glad you're here.
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Other people will pick up on that vibe.
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Like, I've been to rides here
in Bentonville, where similar to
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Eli, like I'm not the leader, I'm
just showing up as a participant.
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And you just emulate the vibe
that is there when you get there.
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And, and that can be really
awkward for me 'cause I want to
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make everybody else feel welcome.
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But then there becomes this assumption
that I'm the ride leader and I'm
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like, oh no, I'm just here to play.
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I'm here to, to ride bikes.
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Silence.
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Eli: showed up to a ride one time
like as the first time attending
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this well established ride.
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And it was like, me Meet up before the
ride and then the ride starts like 15
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minutes later or whatever and I was
there and I was like, oh, hey Hey,
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I'm Eli like blah blah blah and then
somebody in the group was like, oh We'll
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do introductions like in a bit and I
was like, I don't I don't know anyone
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though Am I just gonna sit here quietly?
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It was it was the weirdest thing and
it set the tone I was just like, yep.
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This was weird I used to host a ride
in Kansas City that I, it was never
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clear whether people were coming
just to ride on the trail or coming
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for the group that I was hosting.
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And I would, every time somebody
would be walking up, I'd be like,
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hey, are you here for this thing?
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And, sometimes they were, sometimes
they weren't, and they were
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like, what are you talking about?
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And then we were like,
nah, just come anyway.
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Okay.
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Jacob: ended up introducing
themselves to you twice?
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That could be a really big problem,
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Eli: I know.
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Definitely.
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Because I always remember people's
names on the first time and I never
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need somebody to say it a second time.
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Jacob: No, of
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Eli: do not repeat yourself.
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Jacob: Yeah, yeah, we'll
do introductions later.
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We can't.
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I don't want to know your name right now.
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Eli: exactly.
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Ellen: that's like one of the easiest ways
to make sure people do feel like included
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is like immediately make eye contact
immediately say hey and like bring them
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into your space right like that is so odd
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Eli: It was, it was weird.
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Marley: Well, let's talk about the
nuts and bolts of inclusive rides.
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Everybody thinks they can
lead an inclusive ride and
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thinks they're capable of it.
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But I know that it takes more work than
that, so I would love to hear from you
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all soup to nuts, I don't understand that
expression, but like, A to Z how do you
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Eli: I've never heard that.
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Marley: You've never heard soup to nuts?
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Jacob: I've heard it, but I also,
yeah, where does that come from?
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Hang
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Marley: I
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Jacob: we need to take a
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Eli: kind of soup?
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Jacob: look up the etymology here.
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Ellen: This is now a Soup to Nuts podcast.
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Marley: soup to nuts.
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I, I, I've heard it.
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I don't know.
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But you know, from, you get this idea
of like, hey, I want to lead a group
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ride, all the way to, it's the day of.
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What are you going through?
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What does your process look like?
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Take us through it.
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Eli: Take us away, Jacob, with
your detailed Excel spreadsheet.
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Jacob: Oh,
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Marley: We're not even lying.
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Jacob does have an Excel spreadsheet.
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Jacob: yeah, I
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Ellen: in slow, salacious detail.
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Jacob: have an Excel
spreadsheet for a lot of things.
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This is well, this particular spreadsheet
is just a really easy way to track
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all of the different little tasks
that go into Putting a ride together.
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And then, based on the date of the ride,
when they all need to be completed and
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whether you're on track for success or you
got to do a little extra work this week.
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Marley: Heaven right
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Jacob: yeah.
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Ellen: I tell you what, I'm
breathing heavy over here.
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I just have my mic.
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Jacob: Oh my gosh.
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Marley: What are some of those tasks?
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Silence.
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Jacob: this ride for specifically.
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There's all different kinds of
ways to make your ride inclusive.
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But you know, if you have a specific
audience, for example, I'm trying to
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reach a group of people who work in
retail, right, hosting that ride on.
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Tuesday at noon, those people
might not be available.
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So thinking about when you're, when your
audience can be available, what specific
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barriers are in their way of getting to
that ride and having a really good time.
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And then I, starting from the offset to
try from the get go to try to identify
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ways of removing those barriers.
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So I think that's a really.
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I think that's a really
important place to start.
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Is not just like jumping right in.
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Oh, the ride's going to be here.
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It's going to be at this time.
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It's going to look like this.
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But like starting from that
really big picture, brainstorming,
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who is this ride for?
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What are the needs of this audience?
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Ellen: I want to dig into this a little
bit because I think what happens is
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people like inclusive means I have
to be trying to cater to everyone.
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But what you just said actually is
no you can narrow the focus to cater
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to one specific audience that has
been "othered" in order to bring them
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in, like, you have to speak to them
directly in order to make it inclusive.
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So it's kind of this inverse idea.
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That purposeful language of speaking their
language to say, this is also for you
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and here, let me show you in this way.
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:
Yeah.
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Jacob: in your community.
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And so I think a lot of the
times we see a lot of rides are
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happening like Saturday mornings.
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Right.
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But for example, a role that I've
been in for many years is working
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at bike shops, and most bike
shop employees work on Saturdays.
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So how is the person at the bike shop
going to be able to get to that ride,
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:
inclusive or otherwise, if every
single ride is on a Saturday morning?
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:
So You know, for sure, just because
of how time works, not every single
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:
thing is going to be accessible by
every single person just because
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:
of scheduling but starting from
like, okay, where is there a gap?
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Who's the audience?
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:
Who am I intending to reach out to?
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That's been, systemically left
out that so I can bring them in.
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What are the issues they have and
what are the ways I can address
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:
those barriers to allow them to
access this kind of programming.
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Marley: Love that anything to add Eli?
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You've thought about who your audience
is what are some other, things
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that go into an inclusive ride?
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:
Like, do you have a pre ride talk?
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:
Expectation setting marketing.
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:
Just curious about that.
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Eli: definitely I think in marketing,
one of the key things is like, if you're
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:
trying to be inclusive and make sure that
either certain people or everyone feel
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:
welcome And this is like maybe seemingly a
standard marketing thing, but they should
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:
be represented in like maybe in the photos
or something that we're posting or if
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:
I'm posting videos and stuff like that.
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If I'm showing a ride and I think
that it can be done on any bike.
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:
So if I, if I'm like, putting together
a ride that it's like, you don't have
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:
to be on a mountain bike or a road
bike specifically, then maybe I'm
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:
going to include all different types
of bikes in those photos where I'm
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:
saying that this ride is coming up.
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:
Making sure that visually you
might see yourself represented
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:
in, like, what we're doing.
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:
And then definitely giving a pre
ride talk, setting the stage.
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:
There's, an element of, like,
intrinsically when I show up somewhere,
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:
I'm like, I look a way that I look, and
I'm gonna expect that People are seeing
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:
me as a very just straight up queer
trans person that's like, we're gonna be
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:
tolerant of that, and if you're not, I
think, I would hope you would just like
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:
maybe turn around and walk away, and
I don't have to have that conversation
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:
with you but I do like to set that stage.
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:
I think some simple ways that I try
to show inclusivity without like
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:
being blunt in someone's face is
introducing myself and my pronouns.
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:
Sometimes I'll do an introductory question
that's breaking down some barriers.
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:
Instead of like hey what's your favorite
bike to ride but something that doesn't
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:
have anything to do with that what's
your favorite like holiday food is a
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:
really good one which is nice because
you get a lot of different cultural
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:
references and questions like that.
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:
I definitely try and Set the stage by
being who I am and also setting the tone
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:
for making sure that people know that
this is a space where we welcome all.
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:
People, riders, different styles.
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:
But like to Jacob's point in terms of
like maybe we're gonna do a ride that's
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:
like at a certain time of day to reach
a certain audience, Sometimes you're
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:
doing like a mountain biking ride, so
like maybe there's a little bit of skill
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:
level or something that goes into that,
or a specific type of bike and one of
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:
the ways that I try to make those more
inclusive, It's like, hey, if you don't
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:
have this bike, I have access to a lot
of bikes, either my own or friends or
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:
something like that, so be like, hey,
you can hit me up if you think maybe
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:
you don't know if your bike is equipped
for this or you don't have a bike.
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:
So breaking down inclusivity barriers
by offering equipment is another way.
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:
Jacob: Just going to like one of
the first and one of the last things
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:
that you were saying, which is
like about that equipment piece.
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:
And to me, I think one of the biggest
marketing things is really sharing
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:
a ton of information about the ride.
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:
Trying to make it as clear and
concise as possible, but really
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:
hitting on these major points, right?
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:
Not just, where are we meeting and
what time are we meeting, but like,
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:
what time are we actually leaving from
the spot that we say we're meeting at?
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:
What kind of equipment do you need?
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:
So this is what the route is,
all of the route information.
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:
This is how long it is.
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:
This is how many feet of climbing it is.
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:
These are any specifically
challenging points.
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:
And that could be.
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:
Thinking broadly, what's
challenging, right?
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:
Someone on a tricycle is going to
have a really challenging time making
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:
it through a really narrow set of
barriers or getting up on top of a curb.
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:
For some reason, they might
not even be able to do that.
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:
Someone that's not very experienced
with riding on busy streets is going
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:
to have a tough time riding on a busy
road, even for just, a few 100 feet.
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:
Someone that has different ability
levels or different strength levels or
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:
is has a different level of experience
with with hills might have a harder
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:
time getting up a really steep hill.
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:
So trying to identify any
of those challenging points
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:
in that ride description.
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:
So people know what to expect.
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:
And then with that, what kind
of bike you need to bring.
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:
I've hosted rides where it's
like, this ride is fully paved.
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:
Any bicycle, any tricycle, any
wheels you have is going to be great.
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:
I've hosted rides that's like,
this is a mountain bike ride.
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:
Your bike should have at
least this size tires.
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:
They should be knobby where, they
have a little bit of extra grip.
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:
And really everything in between.
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:
But I think that, that identification,
that like pre set of information.
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:
Is really crucial.
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:
And then, yeah, as, as Eli was
saying, like, when people arrive,
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:
really setting the stage there.
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:
I've got, I have like a script, basically
a template for a pre ride talk that I
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:
like will tweak depending on the ride.
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:
But that's, first of all is like
front loading that information again.
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:
So people that, people sign up for things,
they're not always so good at reading
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:
all of the fine print, even if it's
really big and right in front of them.
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:
Ellen: Even if it's large print.
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:
Jacob: even if it's large print.
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:
Really?
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:
And I mean, ultimately, people
just learn in different ways.
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:
So not everybody can learn
from reading on a website.
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:
Sometimes you need to tell them about it.
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:
So I'm really reiterating
some of that information.
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:
This is how long the ride is.
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:
This is what kind of terrain
we're going to get to.
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:
These are the kind of key points.
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:
And then, yeah, it's really
crucial to have community norms
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:
for the space we're sharing.
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:
So I've got a nice bunch of those.
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:
And then to Eli's point about,
like, making sure everyone feels
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:
welcome, especially folks in
our queer and trans community.
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:
One of the community norms that I use
is don't assume anyone's pronouns.
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:
And if you don't know, you can use
a, they pronoun or ask them politely.
499
:
But I think that's pretty clear that
anyone that doesn't think pronouns
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:
are real we'll leave at that point.
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:
Um, And that's great because that's,
a way that we, as leaders do that
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:
work of setting the tone so that
everybody in that space, Is a welcoming
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:
person for anyone that shows up
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:
Ellen: And it can be a big signal, even
as an ally, as someone who, like, I
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:
have the pronouns that you'd expect to
see with my particular face, but it's
506
:
like, if I just, this is, Very casual,
nonchalantly say it's like, Hey, my
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:
name is Ellen and my pronouns are she
her like it opens the door of saying,
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:
I'm welcoming that from you as well.
509
:
And I am saying, I expect
these to be respected and
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:
from my, my space of allyship.
511
:
,
Eli: I've been in a space where I'm like, it goes around this entire
