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Leading a truly inclusive ride with All Bodies on Bikes Ride Leaders Eli & Jacob
28th February 2025 • All Bodies on Bikes • Marley Blonsky
00:00:00 00:43:41

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You may be sitting there asking, "Marley and Ellen, do you really need a whole dang episode devoted to inclusive rides? In the ABOB, we all fam!"

But the answer is YES! The more people who understand the work behind the scenes to create, foster, and protect these inclusive spaces should be shared. So we brought on two resident experts, Eli Kosko and Jacob Sheppard-Saidel, to talk through how they've created purposefully inclusive groups. They share their tips, experiences, and spreadsheets to help the next generation of organizers open their spaces to all.

Jacob Sheppard-Saidel is our All Bodies on Bikes chapter leader for Western Massachusetts. Follow @abob_westernmass (which also has details to join their Sugar Shack ride on Sunday, March 9!)

Eli Kosko is our All Bodies on Bikes chapter leader for Albuquerque. Follow @abob_abq to join up, and for details about their upcoming onramp series.

All Bodies on Bikes events, rides, and information for our 15 nationwide chapters can be found on our website, https://www.allbodiesonbikes.com/events

Transcripts

Marley:

All right.

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I think we're recording.

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Ellen: I think we're recording.

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We are.

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We're for sure recording.

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How are you Marley?

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Marley: I am freezing.

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How are you?

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Ellen: Same!

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It has been, it's been a really fun

couple of weeks to be on international

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calls because it doesn't get as cold

as it does here in Kansas City, and

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so when I get on and I'm like, here's

my Fahrenheit temperature, and then

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I convert it into like mega negative

Celsius, they all just lose their minds.

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Marley: I was talking to somebody

about it today, how I just

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haven't really gone outside.

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And they're like, but wasn't it

cold when you lived in Seattle?

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And no, we would have weeks where

it would be like a three degree

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temperature variation, usually

in the forties and fifties.

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And I like that.

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It's, it's a wet cold,

but it's better than this.

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Like it was six degrees the other morning

when I went to take Daisy Mae out.

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It was, it was wild.

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Ellen: but you've been riding pretty well.

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Didn't I see you get out the other day?

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Marley: I did, and I actually, I

just went to the coffee shop on

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my bike, so I, I know that for my

mental health, I have to get fresh

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air, and it helps that it's sunny.

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It's But I hate it, and I'm,

I've worn base layers more than

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I ever have in my entire life.

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I don't ever wear them,

and now I live with them.

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Ellen: Yeah, that's fair.

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I am sitting at my desk with

a heated blanket on my lap.

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So,

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Marley: Well, we're not here

to talk about the cold, and

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Ellen: we're not,

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Marley: is shaking their heads at us

because I think they really love the cold.

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Let's get on with the show.

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Ellen: let's do it.

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We're going to talk about

leading inclusive rides.

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And

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2 of our All Bodies on

Bikes, wonderful leaders

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Marley: But you might be saying like,

okay, how to lead an inclusive ride.

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That's like all bodies on bikes.

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One on one.

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Like, do we really need a

whole podcast about this?

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But honestly, yes.

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I think a lot of us have had the

experience where we go to something

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that they say is an inclusive

ride or as an inclusive event.

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And then you're like, I don't feel

welcome or included here or I've

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been dropped off the back or this

is not a welcoming space and Wanted

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to bring on Eli and Jacob today.

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They are two of our chapter leaders who

also just have a ton of experience in

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other parts of their lives in cultivating

inclusive spaces and wanted to talk about

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like what actually goes into making An

event or a ride inclusive and obviously

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this is gonna have like a bike slant

to it and talking about bike rides But

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I think what we're gonna talk about is

applicable to other types of activities

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So let's read their bios real quick

because these are some folks that are

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awesome And I want to tell you about

them more than just inclusive rides.

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So I'm gonna read Jacob's Do

you want to read Eli's Ellen?

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Okay, Jacob Good start Jacob.

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Why can't I say your name?

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What is happening?

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Ellen: That's Jacob.

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Marley: Thank you.

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It's because I'm smiling.

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Seeing their face makes me smile.

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Jacob Shepard Seidel, they, them,

is a passionate advocate for

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sustainable transportation and

outdoor recreation for everyone.

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They have over a decade of experience

facilitating and cultivating community,

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leading outdoor events, and creating

outdoor opportunities for all.

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Jacob works at the Venture Out Project, a

non profit creating spaces for queer and

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trans folks to access outdoor adventure.

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Outside of the office, you can

usually find Jacob on a bicycle,

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at a swimming hole, or in a tent.

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Or, you may find them at one of the

many events they host as a leader of

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the All Bodies on Bikes chapter in

Western Massachusetts, where they're

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building inclusive community for all

people to move their bodies joyfully.

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Beyond all of their outdoor advocacy,

Jacob loves to cook, play music,

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take photos, and play games.

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Welcome to the show, Jacob.

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Jacob: Thank you so much for having me.

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Thanks for that introduction, Marley.

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I couldn't have said it better myself.

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Marley: That was a great bio.

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I might copy it for myself.

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Ellen: right.

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I thought you wrote your own bio, Jacob.

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Like.

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Marley: They did.

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Jacob: Marley did a lot

of really good research.

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Yeah,

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Ellen: Well, I'm very excited

then to introduce Eli Costco.

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They them is a bike nerd extraordinaire

and integrates their love of

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bikes into all aspects of their

life as a recreational writer,

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professional bike mechanic and safe

routes and infrastructure advocate.

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They find the power and joy of bikes

and everything they do and strive to

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share that as far and wide as possible.

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Eli works at the Esperanza Bicycle

Safety Education Center, Albuquerque's.

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fee free bike shop and

bike education facility.

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Eli loves spending all day outside

on a bike, sharing in that joyful

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movement with others, empowering

other riders with the skills they need

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for their bike maintenance journey,

sharing knowledge, and helping

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others find their own bike joy.

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They practice this joy not only

professionally, but through their

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volunteer work with All Bodies on

Bikes, Bike ABQ, and Bikepacking Routes.

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You can typically You can typically spot

Eli riding any off road, gravel path,

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commuting by bike, spending time walking

and hiking with their dog Kingsley, and

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living out their second career on stage

as a percussionist timpaniist in various

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orchestras and bands, which is so cool.

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Hi Eli.

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Eli: thanks.

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Yeah, thanks for having me.

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I don't have any funny

quips like Jacob did.

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I did write that myself.

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Marley: It's great, and I can

attest to the fact I've seen Eli

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play the drums and they are very

good at it and very fun to watch.

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So

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Eli: thank you.

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Marley: yeah, welcome to the show you two.

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Thanks for taking the time to do this.

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So I'm going to start

with a really hard hitter.

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Why do inclusive rides matter?

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Like, is this just like a feel good

thing that we do because we're a bunch of

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softies and want everybody to feel good?

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I

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Ellen: Obviously yes, end of episode.

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Marley: Maybe I should answer that.

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Ellen: Okay.

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Eli: of being interested in bikes, i'm

like, let's go I can get you there.

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So for me that can be literally anyone,

even people who don't currently have a

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bike, and that's why inclusivity matters,

because I don't want somebody to be like,

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Well, I thought about riding, but, I don't

look like those people, or I don't ride

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as fast as those people or whatever it is.

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And so it's like, no, no, you can do it.

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Jacob: Yeah, I I also secretly, not so

secretly, have the same agenda as Eli.

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Of getting everyone out on bikes.

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and, I think it matters for

a bunch of different reasons.

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I think there's a, like, really internal

element to this, which is the, like,

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transformative properties of outdoor

recreation and outdoor adventure.

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And I think it's really valuable to give

everyone an opportunity to access that.

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It doesn't mean that this is necessarily.

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The activity that they will stick

to or that outdoor adventure

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will be transformative for them.

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But I think for so many of us, we found

it so meaningful and yet providing those

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opportunities and allowing people a way

in from whatever background they're coming

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from, I think is extremely important.

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Marley: about

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Jacob: things, I think.

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Ultimately, the more people on bikes, the

better for, for so many other reasons.

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Thinking about safety of all of us on

bikes, the more people that ride bikes,

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the more bike infrastructure that exists,

the safer it is for everybody, the more

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access there is for people that aren't

already like really motivated, hardcore

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cyclists to ride their bikes places.

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And then that, snowballs into climate

action as far as the longevity of us

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living on this planet Earth as human

beings, which you know, I, I say tongue

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in cheek, but is like a extremely serious

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Marley: a very real thing

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Ellen: for

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Jacob: out of a car for,

for their trip across town.

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It's it's a win.

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And bike lanes do that.

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Other bike infrastructure does that

more, places to park your bike,

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more bike lanes that are safer,

protected, connected bike routes.

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So it's not just one

lane on one busy road.

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And then what do you do from there?

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And, and the fact of the matter is that

more people on bikes means that there's

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going to be more bike infrastructure,

which makes it safer for more people

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to get on bikes and out of their cars.

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It means that more drivers are going to

be aware and looking for bikes, which

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then makes it safer, so more people

can get out of their bikes and onto

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their cars, or out, excuse me, out

of their cars and onto their bikes.

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Yeah, I really want to make

sure people get onto their cars.

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Ellen: Just get on and

rail against the man.

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Like, stand on your hood.

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Jacob: Exactly, yeah

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Marley: group rides can be like a gateway

drug to more like outdoor recreation,

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like using your bike for more adventures.

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At least that was my case.

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Like I, I started commuting, but

I really got into bikes once I

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started going on social rides

and I felt like I had community.

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But on those rides, it also like.

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Taught me how to ride safely in the

city and how to navigate and opened

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up this world to me that like, if

I would have been just writing by

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myself, I wouldn't have been nearly

as adventurous and exploring.

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So I think that's another big benefit

to inclusive rides is it shows that like

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biking across the city is possible or

biking to a park or biking to, wherever

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your group ride might be going I think

can be really helpful for folks who

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maybe have never considered biking

is like a mode of transportation.

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Eli: Yeah, I, I resonate with that.

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When I moved to Albuquerque a little

over two years ago, I was pretty nervous

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to ride around in a new city, like ride

around on the streets and mostly stuck to

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the trails until I started attending some

group rides and using that to like learn

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just the different safer routes and things

that aren't necessarily on Google Maps

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and being able to feel like I could

navigate my new city more safely and

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the ways to use public transportation

to connect those things as well.

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The group rides really,

really helped that.

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I was already a really avid rider, but

There's always that nervous thing and

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and now I try it like if I'm traveling

I'm like going on a group ride somewhere.

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It's like a nice way to check out a city

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Marley: yeah, love that.

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What defines an inclusive ride?

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Like, are there some hallmarks or

like characteristics of these rides?

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Jacob: yeah, that's a, that's a

really hard hitting question, Marley.

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I think and, and honestly, it is because

it really cuts directly to the core of,

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of what it is that we're talking about.

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And I think there are elements that

are like at the outset really easy to

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identify and then some elements that

are really soft and you have to feel.

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I think number 1 that no one is dropped

that no one's gets left behind on the

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ride is if it's a really good indicator.

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If someone gets left behind,

it's not an inclusive, right?

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I think other elements are that there's

really clear information about what to

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expect on the ride, that there are leaders

that are making everyone feel comfortable

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and welcomed and safe, that, there isn't

any, aggression or, upsetting behavior

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from any of the participants on that ride.

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Yeah, and then there's also

soft things just like you show

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up and you feel welcomed there.

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I mean, I think that's one of these

biggest soft elements of an inclusive

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ride is that, whoever you are, Wherever

you're coming from, you're able to join

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and you're able to feel like this space

is safe for me to be in, and as you're

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thinking about this event, , you're not

thinking, oh, am I allowed to be here?

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Do I have the right equipment

or the right experience?

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Or, the right kind of body or any of these

things to, be able to attend this event,

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your questions might be like, oh, I can

see really clearly how fast the ride is

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going to be and how long it's going to be.

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Do I feel like I'd be able

to do that and have fun?

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Will I be included in this experience.

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Eli: All of those things

really hit home for me.

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Adding onto the sort of the soft skills

portion of it is not only am I welcome

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at this place, but do I feel comfortable

to be fully myself when I arrive at this

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ride, whether that's on the bike that I

love riding every day and the clothes that

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I ride in, dressed exactly how I dress and

don't have to hide any portion of myself.

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Which has a lot wrapped up in it for me

and for other riders and stuff like that.

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So beyond even the technical skills

needed to do a ride, is this a space

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where I'm going to be like, Nobody's

going to look twice at me or nobody's

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going to look twice at some of the

participants coming to my ride.

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And then in terms of like, not only are

the ride leaders being welcoming and

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engaging with people attending, but is

everybody there engaging with each other.

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Is everybody feeling like, I can

get along with all these people.

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I can make a conversation and meet new

people at any given time on this ride.

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Jacob: I totally resonate with all that

and thinking as well about the kind of

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cultivation of that community where,

everybody in that space feels welcomed

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in and someone new can join and they

will feel welcomed in and yeah, everyone

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feels totally able to bring, their full

self, whatever that looks like to them.

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I think those are like

really powerful points.

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Marley: Yeah, I think Jacob, you make

a really good point of, would somebody

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new feel comfortable joining this ride?

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I think those of us that identify

with all bodies on bikes.

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We've had that experience where we've

been left behind or didn't feel included.

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And so thinking about what I invite

a friend who's newer to riding to

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this ride is a benchmark for me

of, is this ride inclusive or not?

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Ellen: Yeah.

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What I heard too is the group that is

there is as much responsible for creating

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that atmosphere as you are as the leader.

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So it's your job as the leader to

say, this is the space that I want,

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and this is how it's going to be,

but also then putting some of the

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responsibility and the pride in

that feeling from the whole group.

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Jacob: I think that's something that

a good leader, a good cultivator of

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spaces like this can really do well they

can really set the tone and expect the

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rest of the group to follow through.

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Community norms through,

facilitation skills.

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Yeah.

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Marley: That was basically what I was

going to say, but one thing we try and

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do with all bodies on bikes when training

our chapter leaders we just trained

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a whole new cohort, but is to really

emphasize that the leaders set the tone.

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Not just in welcoming this, but in

terms of like safety, behavior norms,

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how we communicate with each other.

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So yes, it is on the participants,

but it's usually not hard.

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If you as the leader, set the tone that

we're gonna be friendly, we're gonna

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smile, we're gonna welcome folks, we're

gonna say, Hey, I'm so glad you're here.

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Other people will pick up on that vibe.

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Like, I've been to rides here

in Bentonville, where similar to

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Eli, like I'm not the leader, I'm

just showing up as a participant.

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And you just emulate the vibe

that is there when you get there.

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And, and that can be really

awkward for me 'cause I want to

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make everybody else feel welcome.

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But then there becomes this assumption

that I'm the ride leader and I'm

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like, oh no, I'm just here to play.

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I'm here to, to ride bikes.

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Silence.

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Eli: showed up to a ride one time

like as the first time attending

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this well established ride.

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And it was like, me Meet up before the

ride and then the ride starts like 15

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minutes later or whatever and I was

there and I was like, oh, hey Hey,

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I'm Eli like blah blah blah and then

somebody in the group was like, oh We'll

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do introductions like in a bit and I

was like, I don't I don't know anyone

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though Am I just gonna sit here quietly?

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It was it was the weirdest thing and

it set the tone I was just like, yep.

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This was weird I used to host a ride

in Kansas City that I, it was never

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clear whether people were coming

just to ride on the trail or coming

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for the group that I was hosting.

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And I would, every time somebody

would be walking up, I'd be like,

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hey, are you here for this thing?

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And, sometimes they were, sometimes

they weren't, and they were

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like, what are you talking about?

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And then we were like,

nah, just come anyway.

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Okay.

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Jacob: ended up introducing

themselves to you twice?

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That could be a really big problem,

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Eli: I know.

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Definitely.

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Because I always remember people's

names on the first time and I never

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need somebody to say it a second time.

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Jacob: No, of

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Eli: do not repeat yourself.

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Jacob: Yeah, yeah, we'll

do introductions later.

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We can't.

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I don't want to know your name right now.

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Eli: exactly.

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Ellen: that's like one of the easiest ways

to make sure people do feel like included

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is like immediately make eye contact

immediately say hey and like bring them

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into your space right like that is so odd

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Eli: It was, it was weird.

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Marley: Well, let's talk about the

nuts and bolts of inclusive rides.

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Everybody thinks they can

lead an inclusive ride and

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thinks they're capable of it.

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But I know that it takes more work than

that, so I would love to hear from you

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all soup to nuts, I don't understand that

expression, but like, A to Z how do you

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Eli: I've never heard that.

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Marley: You've never heard soup to nuts?

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Jacob: I've heard it, but I also,

yeah, where does that come from?

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Hang

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Marley: I

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Jacob: we need to take a

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Eli: kind of soup?

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Jacob: look up the etymology here.

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Ellen: This is now a Soup to Nuts podcast.

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Marley: soup to nuts.

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I, I, I've heard it.

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I don't know.

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But you know, from, you get this idea

of like, hey, I want to lead a group

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ride, all the way to, it's the day of.

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What are you going through?

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What does your process look like?

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Take us through it.

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Eli: Take us away, Jacob, with

your detailed Excel spreadsheet.

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Jacob: Oh,

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Marley: We're not even lying.

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Jacob does have an Excel spreadsheet.

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Jacob: yeah, I

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Ellen: in slow, salacious detail.

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Jacob: have an Excel

spreadsheet for a lot of things.

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This is well, this particular spreadsheet

is just a really easy way to track

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all of the different little tasks

that go into Putting a ride together.

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And then, based on the date of the ride,

when they all need to be completed and

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whether you're on track for success or you

got to do a little extra work this week.

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Marley: Heaven right

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Jacob: yeah.

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Ellen: I tell you what, I'm

breathing heavy over here.

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I just have my mic.

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Jacob: Oh my gosh.

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Marley: What are some of those tasks?

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Silence.

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Jacob: this ride for specifically.

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There's all different kinds of

ways to make your ride inclusive.

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But you know, if you have a specific

audience, for example, I'm trying to

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reach a group of people who work in

retail, right, hosting that ride on.

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Tuesday at noon, those people

might not be available.

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So thinking about when you're, when your

audience can be available, what specific

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barriers are in their way of getting to

that ride and having a really good time.

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And then I, starting from the offset to

try from the get go to try to identify

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ways of removing those barriers.

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So I think that's a really.

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I think that's a really

important place to start.

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Is not just like jumping right in.

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Oh, the ride's going to be here.

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It's going to be at this time.

367

:

It's going to look like this.

368

:

But like starting from that

really big picture, brainstorming,

369

:

who is this ride for?

370

:

What are the needs of this audience?

371

:

Ellen: I want to dig into this a little

bit because I think what happens is

372

:

people like inclusive means I have

to be trying to cater to everyone.

373

:

But what you just said actually is

no you can narrow the focus to cater

374

:

to one specific audience that has

been "othered" in order to bring them

375

:

in, like, you have to speak to them

directly in order to make it inclusive.

376

:

So it's kind of this inverse idea.

377

:

That purposeful language of speaking their

language to say, this is also for you

378

:

and here, let me show you in this way.

379

:

Yeah.

380

:

Jacob: in your community.

381

:

And so I think a lot of the

times we see a lot of rides are

382

:

happening like Saturday mornings.

383

:

Right.

384

:

But for example, a role that I've

been in for many years is working

385

:

at bike shops, and most bike

shop employees work on Saturdays.

386

:

So how is the person at the bike shop

going to be able to get to that ride,

387

:

inclusive or otherwise, if every

single ride is on a Saturday morning?

388

:

So You know, for sure, just because

of how time works, not every single

389

:

thing is going to be accessible by

every single person just because

390

:

of scheduling but starting from

like, okay, where is there a gap?

391

:

Who's the audience?

392

:

Who am I intending to reach out to?

393

:

That's been, systemically left

out that so I can bring them in.

394

:

What are the issues they have and

what are the ways I can address

395

:

those barriers to allow them to

access this kind of programming.

396

:

Marley: Love that anything to add Eli?

397

:

You've thought about who your audience

is what are some other, things

398

:

that go into an inclusive ride?

399

:

Like, do you have a pre ride talk?

400

:

Expectation setting marketing.

401

:

Just curious about that.

402

:

Eli: definitely I think in marketing,

one of the key things is like, if you're

403

:

trying to be inclusive and make sure that

either certain people or everyone feel

404

:

welcome And this is like maybe seemingly a

standard marketing thing, but they should

405

:

be represented in like maybe in the photos

or something that we're posting or if

406

:

I'm posting videos and stuff like that.

407

:

If I'm showing a ride and I think

that it can be done on any bike.

408

:

So if I, if I'm like, putting together

a ride that it's like, you don't have

409

:

to be on a mountain bike or a road

bike specifically, then maybe I'm

410

:

going to include all different types

of bikes in those photos where I'm

411

:

saying that this ride is coming up.

412

:

Making sure that visually you

might see yourself represented

413

:

in, like, what we're doing.

414

:

And then definitely giving a pre

ride talk, setting the stage.

415

:

There's, an element of, like,

intrinsically when I show up somewhere,

416

:

I'm like, I look a way that I look, and

I'm gonna expect that People are seeing

417

:

me as a very just straight up queer

trans person that's like, we're gonna be

418

:

tolerant of that, and if you're not, I

think, I would hope you would just like

419

:

maybe turn around and walk away, and

I don't have to have that conversation

420

:

with you but I do like to set that stage.

421

:

I think some simple ways that I try

to show inclusivity without like

422

:

being blunt in someone's face is

introducing myself and my pronouns.

423

:

Sometimes I'll do an introductory question

that's breaking down some barriers.

424

:

Instead of like hey what's your favorite

bike to ride but something that doesn't

425

:

have anything to do with that what's

your favorite like holiday food is a

426

:

really good one which is nice because

you get a lot of different cultural

427

:

references and questions like that.

428

:

I definitely try and Set the stage by

being who I am and also setting the tone

429

:

for making sure that people know that

this is a space where we welcome all.

430

:

People, riders, different styles.

431

:

But like to Jacob's point in terms of

like maybe we're gonna do a ride that's

432

:

like at a certain time of day to reach

a certain audience, Sometimes you're

433

:

doing like a mountain biking ride, so

like maybe there's a little bit of skill

434

:

level or something that goes into that,

or a specific type of bike and one of

435

:

the ways that I try to make those more

inclusive, It's like, hey, if you don't

436

:

have this bike, I have access to a lot

of bikes, either my own or friends or

437

:

something like that, so be like, hey,

you can hit me up if you think maybe

438

:

you don't know if your bike is equipped

for this or you don't have a bike.

439

:

So breaking down inclusivity barriers

by offering equipment is another way.

440

:

Jacob: Just going to like one of

the first and one of the last things

441

:

that you were saying, which is

like about that equipment piece.

442

:

And to me, I think one of the biggest

marketing things is really sharing

443

:

a ton of information about the ride.

444

:

Trying to make it as clear and

concise as possible, but really

445

:

hitting on these major points, right?

446

:

Not just, where are we meeting and

what time are we meeting, but like,

447

:

what time are we actually leaving from

the spot that we say we're meeting at?

448

:

What kind of equipment do you need?

449

:

So this is what the route is,

all of the route information.

450

:

This is how long it is.

451

:

This is how many feet of climbing it is.

452

:

These are any specifically

challenging points.

453

:

And that could be.

454

:

Thinking broadly, what's

challenging, right?

455

:

Someone on a tricycle is going to

have a really challenging time making

456

:

it through a really narrow set of

barriers or getting up on top of a curb.

457

:

For some reason, they might

not even be able to do that.

458

:

Someone that's not very experienced

with riding on busy streets is going

459

:

to have a tough time riding on a busy

road, even for just, a few 100 feet.

460

:

Someone that has different ability

levels or different strength levels or

461

:

is has a different level of experience

with with hills might have a harder

462

:

time getting up a really steep hill.

463

:

So trying to identify any

of those challenging points

464

:

in that ride description.

465

:

So people know what to expect.

466

:

And then with that, what kind

of bike you need to bring.

467

:

I've hosted rides where it's

like, this ride is fully paved.

468

:

Any bicycle, any tricycle, any

wheels you have is going to be great.

469

:

I've hosted rides that's like,

this is a mountain bike ride.

470

:

Your bike should have at

least this size tires.

471

:

They should be knobby where, they

have a little bit of extra grip.

472

:

And really everything in between.

473

:

But I think that, that identification,

that like pre set of information.

474

:

Is really crucial.

475

:

And then, yeah, as, as Eli was

saying, like, when people arrive,

476

:

really setting the stage there.

477

:

I've got, I have like a script, basically

a template for a pre ride talk that I

478

:

like will tweak depending on the ride.

479

:

But that's, first of all is like

front loading that information again.

480

:

So people that, people sign up for things,

they're not always so good at reading

481

:

all of the fine print, even if it's

really big and right in front of them.

482

:

Ellen: Even if it's large print.

483

:

Jacob: even if it's large print.

484

:

Really?

485

:

And I mean, ultimately, people

just learn in different ways.

486

:

So not everybody can learn

from reading on a website.

487

:

Sometimes you need to tell them about it.

488

:

So I'm really reiterating

some of that information.

489

:

This is how long the ride is.

490

:

This is what kind of terrain

we're going to get to.

491

:

These are the kind of key points.

492

:

And then, yeah, it's really

crucial to have community norms

493

:

for the space we're sharing.

494

:

So I've got a nice bunch of those.

495

:

And then to Eli's point about,

like, making sure everyone feels

496

:

welcome, especially folks in

our queer and trans community.

497

:

One of the community norms that I use

is don't assume anyone's pronouns.

498

:

And if you don't know, you can use

a, they pronoun or ask them politely.

499

:

But I think that's pretty clear that

anyone that doesn't think pronouns

500

:

are real we'll leave at that point.

501

:

Um, And that's great because that's,

a way that we, as leaders do that

502

:

work of setting the tone so that

everybody in that space, Is a welcoming

503

:

person for anyone that shows up

504

:

Ellen: And it can be a big signal, even

as an ally, as someone who, like, I

505

:

have the pronouns that you'd expect to

see with my particular face, but it's

506

:

like, if I just, this is, Very casual,

nonchalantly say it's like, Hey, my

507

:

name is Ellen and my pronouns are she

her like it opens the door of saying,

508

:

I'm welcoming that from you as well.

509

:

And I am saying, I expect

these to be respected and

510

:

from my, my space of allyship.

511

:

,

Eli: I've been in a space where I'm like, it goes around this entire

512

:

circle and then it comes to me and

then I say my pronouns and I'm the

513

:

first person to have said my pronouns.

514

:

It's a sense of othering and I'm like,

yeah, damn, I'm having to say my pronouns.

515

:

Cause otherwise people are

going to be like, what?

516

:

But.

517

:

I have to say my pronouns because I

want you to know my pronouns, yeah,

518

:

I appreciate that from you, Ellen.

519

:

Ellen: The through line here

too is like the explicitness

520

:

of the inclusivity, right?

521

:

Of saying, this is an inclusive right

and here's how, even to, I like Jacob,

522

:

your points about like the FAQs and the

restating things, the group that I lead

523

:

in Kansas city is a family bike ride.

524

:

And so like thinking of like,

what does a family need to know?

525

:

If you have young kids,

what do you want to know?

526

:

And so like, I have an FAQ about

do we, or don't we have snacks?

527

:

How do you get out of this if my

kid is melting down, like it's

528

:

stuff that a different audience

isn't going to care about.

529

:

You know, me as the ride leader

who at the time had a two year

530

:

old and now it's a four year old.

531

:

It's a bit of like, I have had my kid

sobbing on the back of my bike before.

532

:

I have understood the importance

of having goldfish in my paneers.

533

:

Like, how do we make sure that you

understand that, like, you can show

534

:

up as your authentic parenting self?

535

:

And not have to feel

like that's the barrier.

536

:

So just as a hard example of speaking

the language of whoever your audience

537

:

is, and of course, like, I think

everyone would have an open door

538

:

policy anyway, but, like, trying to

anticipate it as much so that they

539

:

understand that you understand them.

540

:

And they're not going to have to

try to come to you and say, for

541

:

whatever reason, I feel othered, and

here are my specific other concerns

542

:

that you have not yet addressed.

543

:

Jacob: I think that's a really great.

544

:

Marley: sorry, I was

just going to say if you.

545

:

When you do cultivate that welcoming,

inclusive environment, if there are

546

:

other concerns that haven't been

addressed, I, hopefully that person

547

:

then also feels comfortable saying,

Hey, I also need this accommodation.

548

:

Can we figure it out?

549

:

And that's been my experience with

all bodies on bikes is, there are

550

:

things that we don't do right.

551

:

And there are things that we mess

up on and things that we don't know.

552

:

Being open and willing to get

feedback has been awesome for us.

553

:

And we have learned so much and

like, we've improved our training

554

:

of the chapter leaders and we

have Jacob's spreadsheet and like.

555

:

Really just working through these

things because sometimes things happen.

556

:

Things go sideways and get messed up.

557

:

Sorry, Jacob.

558

:

What were you gonna say?

559

:

Jacob: No, that's actually really lends

itself right into one of the points I

560

:

wanted to make which is ultimately any

goal of inclusivity is not a checkbox

561

:

that you get to say, I've done it, we're

inclusive, now we can move on from this.

562

:

It's really a continual process of

learning and growing and working.

563

:

And so I think that's something that a lot

of people miss, is that they say, great.

564

:

I did the Inclusive Ride Leader

training, now I'm Inclusive Ride Leader.

565

:

And I don't have to learn anything

else, I know what this is.

566

:

And I think that, that is something that

we do really well, is that we're, we're

567

:

listening for feedback, but I think

we're also looking to keep learning.

568

:

And so I think a great example of

this for me is I've partnered with

569

:

a group locally called All Out

Adventures that does outdoor adventure

570

:

programming for folks with disabilities.

571

:

And when we were partnering on a

ride, one of the things that they

572

:

told me is, for our community,

bathroom access is really important.

573

:

If we're going out for two

hours, we need to know where

574

:

bathrooms are along the route.

575

:

Because people need to use the

bathroom and that's really important

576

:

and that to me hadn't been something

that I was planning around.

577

:

I was like, great, if there's

a bathroom at the start and the

578

:

finish, we're, we're probably fine.

579

:

And yeah, for different people with

different abilities, with different

580

:

backgrounds, with different bodies there

are different things that are necessary.

581

:

I think that's something where it's.

582

:

Really that continual learning process

and really valuing that, that seeking

583

:

out information where we're not just

waiting for someone to come to us and

584

:

say, Hey, I had a problem with this ride.

585

:

And of course.

586

:

When they do, we will address

that and we will fix it.

587

:

But ideally we're also

doing a lot of that.

588

:

What are the ways that I can learn

about how to keep working on my

589

:

inclusivity and making sure that

these rides really meet the broadest

590

:

amount of needs from my community.

591

:

Marley: Yeah.

592

:

One thing that I wanted to talk

specifically with you two about,

593

:

because I think you do a really

good job of this is like longer,

594

:

more challenging adventuresome

rides that are still inclusive.

595

:

Cause I think a lot of folks,

get challenged to say, we want

596

:

this ride to be inclusive.

597

:

And then it's like, okay, it needs to be

a five mile cruise at five miles an hour.

598

:

How do y'all accommodate and

work towards more challenging

599

:

rides that are also inclusive?

600

:

Eli: I think the key thing is,

in your question "work towards".

601

:

this past fall I did a series that was,

like, working towards a longer, and I

602

:

think, Jacob, you did the same thing

maybe a year ago, a series of sort of

603

:

building block rides that had an end

goal in mind and maybe, some people are

604

:

already at the point where they could

just like walk out the door and do that

605

:

end goal and then maybe some people are

like, actually I want to get to that

606

:

and then maybe some people are like,

whatever, I don't, I don't even know.

607

:

So we were doing, an overnighter that had

a certain length, it was at an elevation,

608

:

had certain elevation changes and on a

certain terrain and I was like, okay,

609

:

those are the main points that I want to

make sure that anybody who wants to do

610

:

this ride is prepared and ready to do and

so in order to do that I just provided

611

:

opportunities for people to build their

skills and their confidence, as well

612

:

as like practice all of those elements.

613

:

So since it was a bikepacking trip, we

also coupled it with, educational series

614

:

as well as loaning out of some gear and

some, rides where it's like you can, weigh

615

:

yourself down more with these bags and

stuff like that and then just a weekly

616

:

series of increasing distance, varied

terrain, making sure I hit elements of

617

:

the elevation that were involved and

then partnered with local Rider here on

618

:

doing this like pretty big adventure ride

that was actually like above and beyond

619

:

what the distance for the bikepacking

event would be But one that you can do

620

:

without the bags and all that kind of

stuff So it's kind of like, I've done

621

:

a couple Both long distance gravel

rides as well as like, used to do some

622

:

like ultra running and stuff like that.

623

:

Just taking those elements of

training that I know I had to do

624

:

for myself to physically get to

a distance and putting that into

625

:

the terms of all bodies on bikes.

626

:

Making sure that people felt like they

could achieve that distance without

627

:

even, realizing it, I think was one

of the things when I'm talking about,

628

:

specifically increasing mileage.

629

:

It's a thing that I'd be riding

with folks and be like, in my head.

630

:

I'm like, I know that you can do this

already, but you've never done it.

631

:

You've never tried it.

632

:

So what if I just like snuck it

in there by next week We're adding

633

:

a couple extra miles and they

don't even know Sometimes just

634

:

Jacob: Oh my God.

635

:

Eli: sneaky

636

:

Jacob: you're so sneaky.

637

:

Eli: Yeah,

638

:

Jacob: You're so mischievous.

639

:

Eli: know.

640

:

And also I am not sneaky

because I said all of this

641

:

Jacob: Yeah.

642

:

Eli: to all of them that I was doing this.

643

:

But I think that it worked and I, it was

something that I didn't achieve alone.

644

:

I had a lot of help and also called upon

some of those people knew were interested

645

:

in this ride to help lead those rides.

646

:

We just called it like a training,

a buildup series, I think.

647

:

But, Yeah, maybe that's my tactic

for that, is sneakily preparing you

648

:

for that by introducing you to these

elements and then at the end of it

649

:

you're like, oh, I was able to do that.

650

:

And hopefully along the way you find

out that it was a fun thing to do.

651

:

Jacob: Eli, that ride series

looked like so much fun.

652

:

I was so jealous that I couldn't

be in Albuquerque, to do that.

653

:

It looks like such a blast.

654

:

Eli: The funny, or not funny, but the

ultimate thing that ended up happening is

655

:

a freak snowstorm, though, on the weekend

of the Overnighter, so we never actually

656

:

Jacob: Oh no.

657

:

Eli: So it is rescheduled for this coming

May, but yeah, so we ended up not, like,

658

:

I mean, beautiful weather leading all

the way up to it, and then it was like,

659

:

hypothermic conditions, and I was like, I

think we're gonna cancel the Overnighter.

660

:

But everybody was really ready.

661

:

Everybody was

662

:

Jacob: Everyone is so prepared.

663

:

Eli: Yeah.

664

:

Jacob: Well, as Eli was mentioning, I've

done some similar, like buildup rides.

665

:

But also some like adventure, longer,

harder rides that didn't have buildup.

666

:

And I think part of what I'm

thinking about here goes back to

667

:

this idea of who's your audience.

668

:

So I think those buildup rides are

really amazing for working with

669

:

an audience of folks that are more

beginners or don't have the fitness

670

:

or the experience to jump out and do

a longer, 20 mile ride, 30 mile ride.

671

:

But then I think there is an audience of

folks that, that do have that experience

672

:

that do have that fitness, but are

still seeking out community with others

673

:

in an inclusive way to do those kinds

of rides where they don't want to

674

:

just join the fully CIS white rich

dude club ride, they don't want to

675

:

just do these rides by themselves.

676

:

They want to join with other folks that

are going to make them feel welcomed.

677

:

And for stuff like that, I think one of

the keys is that information overload

678

:

where it's like, here's everything

you need to know about this ride.

679

:

Making sure people know

what they're getting into.

680

:

And then, yeah, we've hosted some just

amazing adventure rides, 10, 12, 15 miles,

681

:

two or three hours on the bike where we've

got, just a group of really wonderful

682

:

folks that are coming out and doing it.

683

:

And it doesn't always work out perfectly.

684

:

We did a ride and it's one of those

things that you don't really expect

685

:

when, 15 people sign up and then

40 people show up and you're like,

686

:

oh, shit, this is going to be fun.

687

:

This is gonna be great.

688

:

Everyone's beautiful and wonderful.

689

:

I love all of you.

690

:

We're going to go ride bikes.

691

:

But the other thing that happens

sometimes is that people just join in.

692

:

People just see like a group

of people riding bikes and

693

:

they're like, I'm on a bike.

694

:

I'm going to join you.

695

:

And sometimes those people might be

unprepared for the adventurousness

696

:

of the route because, they didn't

hear the pre ride talk or they

697

:

didn't sign up on the website.

698

:

They just saw a group of people

riding bikes and like Eli did a

699

:

little sneaky and then, you're in

a pretty off road section and they

700

:

get a flat tire and you're like, Oh.

701

:

Oh yeah, that's probably not

the right bike, for this.

702

:

And then you fix their flat tire

and then you finish the ride.

703

:

Sometimes that can happen when you're

doing adventure rides with 40 people.

704

:

Marley: Not speaking from experience at

705

:

Eli: no, I can tell.

706

:

Ellen: no, not at all.

707

:

Jacob: Could happen

708

:

Marley: I think we've all been in that

situation and I think, if you set the

709

:

tone that we're all going to be there

for each other, it turns what could

710

:

be a very frustrating situation into

a, okay, we're going to eat snacks

711

:

while people change their flat and

it's going to be perfectly fine.

712

:

Jacob: and, and everyone's

prepared and everyone has lights.

713

:

And everyone, the ride leader might

have a few extra sets of lights in

714

:

case someone didn't read all the

instructions and didn't bring their

715

:

lights and all, all of those good things.

716

:

But yeah, always an adventure.

717

:

And that's one of the fun things

is that it is an adventure, right?

718

:

We're not doing things that we

know exactly how they're going to

719

:

turn out when we set up to do them.

720

:

That's one of the things that makes

it impactful and transformative.

721

:

And that's one of the things that makes

it really fun to do in an environment

722

:

where you feel like you can try

something hard, try something something.

723

:

That will push you a little bit and feel

like you're, you're going to be okay.

724

:

You're, you're safe enough to do something

that feels maybe a little bit unsafe.

725

:

To do something that feels a

little bit of a stretch for you.

726

:

And that you're going

to be okay with that.

727

:

I

728

:

Marley: leader retreat and we were

talking about the different kinds

729

:

of bike rides that we wanted to

put on as an organization, I think

730

:

we called those kinds of rides

fat people can do hard things too.

731

:

Or something along those lines.

732

:

Cause there's always the assumption that,

like fat people only want to do short,

733

:

slow rides or, or something like that,

but people of all sizes and shapes like to

734

:

do stupid things on bikes that are hard.

735

:

So

736

:

Ellen: Like stupid things on bikes.

737

:

Come on.

738

:

We have, we can give ourselves

a little more credit than that,

739

:

Marley: sometimes the things we

do are stupid things on bikes.

740

:

I have many stories.

741

:

Eli: yes,

742

:

Ellen: Fair enough.

743

:

Jacob: Think it's a term of

endearment to say, I'm going to

744

:

go do some stupid things on bikes.

745

:

Like things that, why would

you do that on a bike?

746

:

Why, why not just not do that?

747

:

It's like, because it's really

fun, but it is really stupid.

748

:

Marley: Why am I signed up to ride 100

miles the first weekend of June in Kansas?

749

:

Like, I would consider that

a stupid thing on a bicycle.

750

:

Eli: Mm hmm.

751

:

Mm hmm.

752

:

Marley: I

753

:

Eli: Sounds great to me.

754

:

Ellen: great life experience, right?

755

:

The last question on this is how does

the virtual world fit into all of this?

756

:

We're recording this in the middle

of winter, not everybody can get out

757

:

across the country because there's

polar vortices, and who knows what else.

758

:

Is Zwift Are these things, like,

what does this look like to

759

:

make an inclusive Zwift ride?

760

:

Marley: can chime in on this because we

actively do this with All Bodies on Bikes,

761

:

and I want to caveat this by saying there

are inherent problems with virtual rides.

762

:

They have access barriers, having

an indoor trainer is expensive,

763

:

paying for Zwift can be expensive.

764

:

So by its very nature, it's going to

exclude some people and that sucks.

765

:

But for those who do have a trainer or

who have the equipment to ride indoors

766

:

Zwift is a great platform for it.

767

:

However, You have to seek out the

inclusive rides because if you join

768

:

a random group ride, they are often

like a race style format where folks

769

:

are just trying to go faster and

harder than other people and then

770

:

you lose the group and then you're

like, cool, why am I doing this?

771

:

So what we do at All Bodies on Bikes

is we've got a couple social rides

772

:

throughout the week now on Zwift.

773

:

Those will taper off during the

summer, but right now we use what's

774

:

called the rubber band feature.

775

:

So it keeps the whole group

together as we're riding.

776

:

regardless of what pace

each person is going at.

777

:

We also put up a discord and we just chat

with each other, which the first time

778

:

I was introduced to this concept, I was

like, why in the world would I turn on my

779

:

camera and talk to people while I'm heavy

breathing and riding this indoor bicycle?

780

:

And now I love it.

781

:

Like I do it most Monday nights.

782

:

And I talk to folks from across

the country and we don't always

783

:

talk, if we're climbing a Hill,

there's a lot less talking.

784

:

But it does feel like a regular group ride

785

:

Eli: I was gonna say it

sounds like real life.

786

:

Ellen: Yeah,

787

:

Marley: It's exactly what it is.

788

:

It's, it's cool.

789

:

Ellen: that's so cool.

790

:

I had not heard the Discord edition.

791

:

Marley: If folks, want to join in if

you find the All Bodies on Bikes club

792

:

on Zwift, join the club and then you'll

get notified of the different events.

793

:

Ellen: Oh, nice.

794

:

Marley: Um, I would love for Eli and Jacob

to give a shout out to their individual

795

:

chapters and maybe if you've got anything

planned or in the works or things to

796

:

look forward to and it's okay if not,

but where can they find you as well?

797

:

Um,

798

:

Eli: The fall that we

got weathered out of.

799

:

We're gonna do that same series leading

up to it just to scoop everyone back in.

800

:

And I think.

801

:

We're very lucky here in Albuquerque,

I can ride pretty much year round.

802

:

Right now, it's quite cold, but

even in the middle of the day,

803

:

it's really sunny and warm.

804

:

People are still out there riding

and keeping confident on their, on

805

:

their handling and stuff like that.

806

:

But yeah, we'll do that

same building series.

807

:

Get anybody who missed the first

one on bikepacking basics . But,

808

:

we're looking at May 10th to 11th.

809

:

Marley: Cool.

810

:

And we'll have that info up on

the All Bodies on Bikes website

811

:

soon just allbodiesonbikes.

812

:

com slash events.

813

:

Jacob, what's going on in Western Mass?

814

:

Jacob: sounds great.

815

:

So you can, you can find us at, on

Instagram cause we just love Instagram.

816

:

Abob, A B O B underscore Western Mass.

817

:

We're working on a calendar, for 2025.

818

:

One of the things I do expect will

be coming up soon, but has not yet

819

:

been scheduled or planned would,

will be a little sugar shack ride.

820

:

So I don't know if this is something

where any of y'all are from, but, but up

821

:

here in the Northeast where there's maple

trees, the when it's, when it's sugaring

822

:

season, The sugar shacks, are open.

823

:

They're making syrup all day and night.

824

:

They're just boiling

and you just come on in.

825

:

They got like pancakes and, all

kinds of yummy stuff to eat.

826

:

And this is one of the things, everyone's

complaining about the cold, but, here

827

:

in the Northeast, we love the cold.,

828

:

I think we'll have a few people out for

829

:

one of my favorite things,

honestly, which is a bike ride

830

:

that ends in something to eat.

831

:

Marley: When is sugaring season?

832

:

Okay.

833

:

Jacob: That's a great question.

834

:

You'd probably have to ask a, a farmer, an

arborist, someone that knows more than me.

835

:

I just know that sometime in February

or March, I'm like, oh, shit, I

836

:

should probably go to the sugar shack.

837

:

So, but yeah, so that's, that's

probably the soonest thing, but

838

:

we'll be working on a calendar.

839

:

We'll probably be doing another bunch

of rides in May, which is bike month.

840

:

So you do a bunch of programming.

841

:

Then we'll probably be doing another

class on bike packing one on one, a

842

:

class on bike commuting one on one.

843

:

We'll probably be doing hopefully

another swift camp out this year.

844

:

Which is always a favorite.

845

:

And then, yeah, another

pride ride as well in June.

846

:

And just a bunch of rides

throughout the year.

847

:

So yeah stay, stay in touch

on, on the old Instagram.

848

:

You can also send us an email

which is up on our website, on the,

849

:

the all bodies on bikes website.

850

:

If you want to get on the mailing list.

851

:

So you don't have to go on Instagram

to find out what's going on.

852

:

Marley: Awesome.

853

:

Eli: Yeah, you know what?

854

:

Also myself, Jacob, and Marley have

coming up where if you are not in

855

:

one of our local chapters but want

to come say hey and are heading to

856

:

Mid South so we'll be, we'll be there

857

:

Marley: Ellen will be there too.

858

:

Eli: Oh, and Ellen.

859

:

Okay,

860

:

Jacob: my God.

861

:

The whole gang.

862

:

Eli: this exact conversation again, you

can find us at, no, I'm just kidding about

863

:

Jacob: This

864

:

Eli: but,

865

:

Jacob: talk about.

866

:

Yeah.

867

:

Well, this is all

868

:

Ellen: is the only

869

:

Eli: yeah, this is the

870

:

Jacob: yeah, just turn, turn

the microphone on at any

871

:

point during a conversation.

872

:

This is what you're going to hear.

873

:

Marley: I mean, not far off.

874

:

Ellen: it's like, we

talk about bikes a lot.

875

:

Eli: yeah,

876

:

Marley: Well, this has been absolutely.

877

:

Yeah, this has been awesome.

878

:

Thank you both so much

for the work that you do.

879

:

And just really enlightening conversation.

880

:

Really appreciate you two.

881

:

Eli: yeah, thank you, yeah.

882

:

Ellen: you.

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