Trust Suzy Granger, Sr. Account Mgr at Guidant when she says you are NOT getting "robbed" with ROBS!

Deb Curtis and Suzy Granger discuss the ROBS (Rollover as Business Startup) strategy, which allows individuals to use their retirement funds to start or buy a business. They explore how ROBS works, its benefits, and the common misconceptions surrounding it. There is also discussion on the importance of working with a reputable provider and the potential risks involved.

Despite the terrible acronym, ROBS does not rob business owners! The conversation highlights the need for proper education and guidance when considering ROBS as a funding option for business ventures.

#ROBS #businessbuying #investment

LinkedIn live when we talked about the Rob strategy. So she's here too. And she is phenomenal. Thank you so much for all the assistance you gave us and continue to do so. Oh my goodness, girl. I could not do these lives without Sia and Brilliant Beam Media. So anybody that's in the audience, if you're thinking of getting some support behind the scenes to do a video for online marketing on LinkedIn or to.

to actually do a LinkedIn live stream. I highly encourage you to connect with Sia here up in the top of the speakers room and she'll give you some ideas how to get you started. So she's a good girl for that. She's helped me along the way for many years.

She's, she's there, there. She's unmuted now. So we'll let her, we'll let her just rest. Okay. So talking about Rob, Susie, um, R O B S and every time I think of the acronym, I personally think it confuses people because it stands for rollover business startup. And when I, yeah, when I Rob's is a terrible acronym for this process.

Thank you, IRS. And the long name rollover as business startup is also misleading because you can utilize your available retirement funds to buy a business, to start a business or to add funds to an existing business. Yeah. And I'm glad you said that. And I didn't know, did the IRS come up with that acronym? Yes, they did. Thank you. So it wasn't guided financial that came up. No.

Oh my. And you know, interesting enough, I've been in SBA lending for over 10 years and believe it or not, Susie, my first few years as a rookie SBA lender, I never even heard of Rob's at that point in time. Is that common? It is very common. Even today, despite my best efforts for the last 20 years, I have lenders and entrepreneurs that have never come across this. It is a

Common question I get is, how come my CPA didn't tell me about this? Or how come my financial advisor didn't tell me about this? And the short answer is they don't know. They're not aware of it. It's the ability to do a ROBS has been around since the ERISA law of 1974. ERISA is the body of law that governs 401K plans and tells us what we can and can't do in a 401K. And there's a particular section, 408E…

that says this, through a 401k plan, an individual can buy publicly traded stock, which is what we all typically do, but they can also buy privately held stock of an active business that they're an owner operator of. Completely changes the game. People are allowed to access their retirement funds and deploy them for a business purpose with no tax, no penalty, regardless of the...

clients age. In the time that I've been helping folks with this, most of them are going to combine a ROBS with an SBA 7A or 504 loan. That's my most common client, somebody who's looking for their down payment in an SBA loan. And then my second most common reason a person would use a ROBS is that they have an existing business, but they need additional working capital.

They may need – it may be as soon as to call it post -closed liquidity. So I have an example of a pet shop owner, franchise pet shop owner. He used – he did not use the ROBS to get into his business. He used all of his available liquidity. And then once he opened his doors, he realized that the franchisors were there to order their inventory for the pet store, ran specials.

And in order to be able to take care of these specials, these discounts on products they're going to be selling at retail, they have to be able to act quickly and to have enough money to make it happen. And so this husband and wife came to me. They closed on their SBA loan. All was well. They had gone through their first cycle of purchasing inventory, and they understood the game better. And so they immediately contacted me to see how they could add more funds to their business. Both of them had left corporate America.

He had an IRA with about $100 ,000 in it, and she had an old 403B. That's usually nurses and educators, doctors, that type of deal. She had about 50 in hers. So combined, they were able to access $150 ,000 of their retirement funds and invest them in their own business instead of somebody else's business in the market. Wow. And…

This is just a program for the U S correct? I just want to make sure. That's right. We're only going to access U S retirement dollars. Now I can say I've had a deal in the past where a father and a son bought two car wash franchises in Canada and they were able to use the robs because they filed as a U S taxpayer in Canada. They use U S funds and they filed as a U S taxpayer. So they were able to use a robs.

get these two deals off the ground. Interesting. That's because they were US citizens, their former 401ks or their IRAs were opened here in the US, right? That's right. So even though the funds are here, they were able to use the funds to buy the business in Canada then, right? That's right, but only as a US taxpaying entity.

They couldn't do it as a Canadian tax paying entity because the rules around retirement plans are different in Canada than they are in the U S. Absolutely. So speaking about, um, U S citizens and all of us that have worked for corporate America for years, if not for some of us decades, I can think of myself, you know, earning a 401k in my first, with my first employer.

And I would bet a lot of us forgot that we had 401ks at some employers. I know that sounds crazy, but it happens, right? It does. It does happen. So nerd wallet tells us that $38 trillion of retirement funds are floating around the U S today. Wow. Say that number again, please. $38 trillion with a T dollars, trillion dollars. That's crazy.

with the baby boomers phasing out, there's going to be a huge transfer of wealth to the next generation. And I know that the people who are in the business of helping people buy businesses are very excited and nervous about that transfer of wealth because we want to make sure we've got big good buyers to pick up those businesses that would be lost otherwise. Oh man, that's music to my ears. Good buyers taking over these baby boomer owned businesses that.

We need that because if we put the wrong buyers into these legendary proven successful businesses that have rode every market roller coaster ride over the years, we got to retain those businesses, right, Susie? Absolutely. Our U S economy depends upon that. Oh yeah, for sure. So if I'm a business owner and I want, let's retract that. I'm a seasoned corporate employee.

And I've been dreaming about starting up a business. You can use your 401ks from former employers to help pull that out as funds to help start up the business. Number one, right? Yes, absolutely. Okay. And how many startups do you do in comparison to people buying businesses with the Rob's program? So if you look at guidance financial in general,

which includes the side that I'm on, which works with lenders most primarily, and the other side, which is more franchising, more smaller deals and startups on the franchising side. On my side and for the bulk of my career, 85 % of my deals each year are tied to an SBA loan. Okay. Great. So starting up a business, you can obtain an SBA loan and

many banks will require some down payment for that startup. You know, you want to have some elbow grease, so to speak, as the business owner that you're not going to walk away from that SBA loan. So the bank wants you to put money down into it. You can use an old 401k rolling that over as that down payment, right? Absolutely. Let's just talk for a second of what I call a straight robs. Somebody who is going to use a robs,

to do that very thing. Again, the most common kind. Now there does not have to be a loan involved in a ROBS. I have many clients that due to either the borrower or the business are not SBA qualified. And no disrespect, we all have been through a lot of stuff in the last few years. So a lot of times those folks will come in solely with retirement funds to get their business off the ground.

So there does not have to be a lending piece there, but most commonly there is. So meet Pizza Guy. He's come to me with $95 ,000 in an old IRA, and clearly he's going to buy a pizza shop. Our fee to put this structure together, soup to nuts, all -inclusive, of filing fees is right at $5 ,000. It's $4 ,995. We're going to keep that at five grand for the rest of this conversation. Pizza Guy has to pay our fee individually.

He has to pay us the $5 ,000. That's the IRS's rule, and he cannot be reimbursed in cash for this one -time fee. But he will be reimbursed by the company with $5 ,000 of stock. He got an in -kind stock exchange instead. So the structure looks like this. We establish a C -corp. The operating entity is always a C -corp. Then we establish a 401K plan for that C -corp.

And this 401K plan contains those provisions of ERISA that we spoke about earlier. It's very common for people to be able to buy stock in publicly traded companies. If I worked for Exxon Oil, I promise you one of my options through my Exxon 401K would be stock in Exxon. It's uncommon in privately held businesses, but again, the ERISA law allows for it. So we've got our C -corp. We've got our 401K plan.

Now, Pizza Guy is going to roll $95 ,000 from his old IRA into the new 401K, and that's a qualified rollover, plan to plan, no tax, no penalty. Now, Pizza Guy has got $95 ,000 in his 401K. He's going to do what we all do. He's going to buy stock. But instead of buying stock in Apple or Google or somebody else's business, this time he's going to buy stock in his own C Corp. The dollars transfer into his corporate checking account, where it's now working capital.

available for any purpose the business has. Okay. pizza guy was able to leverage that 95 ,000 with an SBA loan to acquire his business. It's one guy, one Rob's, that's what I call a straight Rob's. But there are many, many variations around that. We talked about for post closed liquidity, the the

Pet Shop guy needed some – needed to have some funds to deploy for this. I have had companies that were in some sort of financial distress. There was a marine painting company down here in Galveston near where I live, and they had a huge payroll tax issue. And they were able to deploy their own retirement funds, the owners of the business. It was two brothers. To add to their existing company, we had to restructure them from an escort.

to a C Corp, and then we added the funds from the two brothers' retirement plans to that business, and they were able to take care of that liability they had for payroll taxes. So can I ask you a question? The startup pizza guy, he rolls over his 401K to the Robs to help start up the pizza business. Over time, can he add…

income to the robs to basically grow back his retirement funds. So one day in the future, if he sells his business, he may receive his retirement funds and then some. Is that correct? Absolutely. Absolutely. So in most states, we're going to use a throwdown number when we're forming the C corporation of $10 a share. That's just commonly what we do.

And as their business grows and is successful, as the percentage grows up, so does your return on your investment, right? So it's just like buying Apple stock. It's just like buying Google stock through your 401k. The difference is you're in control of how well that money is performing. Let's take pizza guy. Pizza guy started his business. His C corporation was valued at $100 ,000.

5 ,000 of it was from him individually, 95 ,000 was through the plan. So the shareholders there were Pizza Guy the individual owned 5 % of this business and Pizza Guy Inc 401k for benefit of Pizza Guy owned 95 % of this business. It's still all Pizza Guy. Okay. Well, let's imagine as he's moving forward, he's got a living breathing 401k plan, which is true. And the IRS does require him to.

continue to make regular ongoing contributions into that 401k plan for his own future retirement benefit. So as they're doing that, they're growing their own 401k balance. They're allowed to choose matching. If they want to match funds, that's allowed. If you want to match for one, you got to match for all. But a lot of my clients will choose a matching feature. And this is kind of another interesting thing. Let's go back to Pizza Guy.

The plan owns 95%. He owns 5%. And let's say the corporation decides to pay out $10 ,000 in dividends. The dividends are going to go to each shareholder in their proportionate share, which means 9 ,500 of that would go into the plan for your future benefit, which is a way of stacking your 401k that you don't typically have. Some of my clients will redeploy those dollars for like a second location.

Hmm. Wow. That's pretty cool. I, that's a great, that's a success story for sure. I love that. That's great. So, you know, there, there is the risk side, obviously. So if you're going to roll over your retirement to buy a business, start up a business or use it for working capital for your current business, if your business goes under, so does the rest.

Is that right, Susie? That is true, right? So.

In my experience, my clients are way more successful than the national average with their businesses. And the main reason for that, I attribute to age. They've been around and been in business long enough, you know, to have some maturity about them. Yes. So my clients are more successful than the national average, but not every business is successful. I had a client that wanted to put a mattress store at the mall and I tried so hard to talk them out of it, but he still did it.

And in six months, his business was closed. That retail space just took him out. And so it's a bad day. We had to shut down the 401K. We had to shut down the C Corp. It's a harsh reality. But at no point is Uncle Sam going to come knocking. Hey, remember that $100 ,000 you use, no tax, no penalty? I want the tax and penalty now. It's not a tax consequence in that way. Okay, got you. All right. Well, that's good to know. I mean there's risk in everything that we do, but it…

I'm glad you brought that up because there's huge importance for anyone listening that does want to learn more and consider a Rob's strategy to help fund your business or buy or start one up. Guidant Financial, are you rated number one? Is the company rated number one in deletion? Yes, we're the number one and largest provider of Rob's plans in the country. I work for a smaller provider for most of my career.

And I had always been envious of Gaiden, always wanted to get over there and really begged my boss before he was my boss for about two years for an interview. And I got that call on the morning of my 61st birthday, totally unexpected. And it was the happiest day of my life. So, A, I want to say to the dreamers out there, never stop dreaming. It can happen. It can still happen, right? I love that. One of the things that's important to me as I educate lenders around me, I put most of my focus on SBA lenders.

And I like to educate them on a ROBS and also the requirements of the SBA and the IRS and the Department of Labor. So you definitely want to work with a good, well -approved provider of this if you're going to refer out for your client or if this is something you're interested in for yourself. Yeah, that's right. And I recall – I'm not an expert like you, but I lean on you for answers to questions.

There are annual IRS compliance procedures that need to be done and turned in. And if I recall you sharing with me, you have teams within Guidant Financial that take care of all this with the customers, correct? We do. Guidant is such a well -oiled machine. I am so proud and impressed to be here. As the client is going through the initial education process, they're assigned a senior consultant.

Once they've engaged with us, they get sent to an onboarding team to take them through the process. And once that has been completed, they're handed over to a 401k administration team. We also have the ability to assist our clients with their corporate work too. We can do payroll taxes. We can do bookkeeping. We can teach you how to do the bookkeeping. We can do the tax returns for the C corporation as well.

This is something new to Guidant. It's been in place actively for a little bit over a year, and I think it's a huge benefit to my clients. Not only are we going to help them maintain compliance of the 401k plan, we can do that for the C -Corp as well. One of the things that's really impressed me about Guidant is they are continually making the client experience easier, simpler, quicker, right? Taking the burden off of the client and leaving in the hands of us the experts.

I really appreciate that about guidance. That's great. Cause I have observed through different SBA loan shops that I have worked for borrowers coming to the loan request with the Rob's strategy, but with a Rob's provider that it got messy. And I, in, in the SBA closing teams,

You know, they, they got smarter over time saying, listen, we only want to deal with like the top number one or number two big companies in the country that understand Rob's inside and out and guidance. Always, Susie always, always has been number one with the lenders that I've worked for. So I commend you and your team for the strength of delivering this program to help support business owners.

and the maintenance and education thereafter. Yeah, our work doesn't stop when we're completed forming the entities. We're going to stay with that borrower or business buyer through the end of their transaction. During that time, we are collecting the data that's required for the SBA lender to keep their files compliant with the SBA. That data...

In total is referred to as the SBA waiver packet, very critical piece of what we're doing here. And that guidance comes out with a beautiful bow, explanation on top, highlighted, tabbed out. The idea is for the underwriter who's looking at this file to be able to go through it quickly and see, yes, this Rob's point has been made, this Rob's point has been made, this Rob's point has been made, so that that deal can fly through underwriting. Very good. And if you are…

a small business dreamer and you're thinking of starting up a business or acquiring one, or you need working capital, can different individuals, husband or wife, father, daughter, uncle, grandma, a mix, friends, even friends, can you combine all of your 401ks if you're going into this business venture as partners together?

Can you combine all of your individual 401ks? Okay, share with us. So that's one of the beauties of a Rob's is it's something you can stack. You could use just retirement funds or you could combine these funds with a loan. You can combine them with other sorts of financing if you need to come up with that.

And what we recommend is the client be accessing a minimum of $50 ,000 for this to have the best economic impact. I'm in Texas. The deal is I work on a little bit bigger because oil companies are rich down here and people leave with pretty big 401Ks. But $50 ,000 is the bottom. And if a husband's got $25 ,000 and the wife has $25 ,000 combined, that's $50 ,000 and that works. So we can have a husband and a wife come together. We can have...

Other family members come in, we can have unrelated third parties come into our robs. What's important to know is anyone who rolls into the plan and then uses those dollars and invests it into the corporation has to be a W -2 employee of the C -Corp. If you think about it, only W -2 employees can be participants in a plan. Makes sense. Right. And I love that example of 25 ,000 from the husband's 401k, 25 ,000 from the wife.

That's 50 ,000 Rob's cash, so to speak, which would garner you a $500 ,000 business acquisition with SBA financing because you got 10 % down. And there's some very nice, profitable, established baby boomer owned businesses sitting at 500 ,000. It's pretty easy to get there. Yeah, it really is. It really is. I had an interesting case a couple of years ago.

I'm down here by Johnson Space Center is where I live. And I had a husband and wife that were buying a large daycare. The deal included a real estate and the down payment or equity injection requirement for this deal was going to be $600 ,000. The deal was 6 million. So that was 10 % of that. Wow. That's a big deal. And the wife and the husband both had.

$600 ,000 in retirement funds combined, but the husband worked for Boeing and he was in a contract that wasn't going to be done for another six months. And he did not want to leave that because he invested his time and expertise into this project. And the wife wanted to get this deal done sooner because she wanted to be open in time to register kids for school, right? So what they did was the father -in -law came in.

and covered the husband's portion. I think it was 300 ,000. So the father -in -law came in and the daughter, they both rolled into the 401k and then invested into the company. And when the husband was done with his assignment six months later, he came in and replaced the father -in -law. The father -in -law was made whole, went back into an IRA, and the husband now was investing his retirement funds into the corporation.

Now all of this was done with the full knowledge and approval from the lender. You don't want to make a move like that without your lender being aware. That's creative though. I mean, I get that. So the father -in -law, he rolled over his IRA to help get the deal done. So the daycare could be open because they obviously wanted to capture, you know, getting the income with school, starting all the kids. And then when he, the husband was released from Boeing,

He paid off the father -in -law, so to speak, right? Or, and then he was able, father -in -law was able to roll over his portion back into a regular IRA. That's correct. With, with no tax penalties again, right? Right. That's right. Wow. And yes, you are right. I, that you need bank approval and every bank has different credit policies and some will see the benefits. There, there was actually a benefit to this.

acquisition, I'm sure. So, wow, that's incredible. Well, listen, Susie, we're at the half hour point and this is the time where if you want to ask a question specific to the Rob's program, please raise your hand and we'll pull you up to the top of the room and you'll unmute yourself and ask if you have a question. And if not, we can maybe...

share a couple more details, but please know that at this time for maybe the next 10 minutes or so, we'll keep the room open. If you have a question, you just raise your hand with the emoji and then I bring you up to the top of the room and you unmute yourself and ask. Maybe share with us a little bit more regarding...

How do I explain this? There are so many SBA lenders out there today, so many banks, and they're all different as we were just discussing. Their bank credit policies are all different. Could it be, Susie, that there are even some SBA lenders and banks that aren't familiar with Rob's, so therefore they're not even talking about it to their borrowers? I think it's not that they're unfamiliar.

way less hesitancy, but there are still banks today that will not accept a Rob's. And the only one that I'm aware of to this day starts with a C. Okay. Okay. It's with an ace. Gotcha. And that's common in our industry because I'm thinking of the SBA, the SOP changes that happened in fall of last year. There's a lot of changes with sellers staying on with an equity portion.

And there are some banks today that are somewhat aware of those new SOP changes, but they're not on board with those changes. So it makes it so confusing for borrowers. When you're talking to one bank, they may tell you one answer about SOP and robs, and then you'll call two other banks and they'll give you a different answer.

So my theory behind all of this, ladies and gentlemen, is if it's Rob's specific, click on Susie's picture in the top here and connect with her. Her cell phone number is her headline for a reason. You know, I am not a Rob's expert. I know just a little bit to talk about it.

but I will lean heavily on Susie to get the facts. And we all must remember that in everything that we do, especially as a small business owner, I think of people that want to buy a business and typically the start of their journey is to just contact business brokers and start searching. And the statistics tell us that these searchers,

94 % of them never even buy a business. And the main reason being is they don't even know what they qualify for as, as a searcher or a business buyer. And they're starting their journey, what I call backwards. They're, they're going to who's selling the business and they're going to whoever selling the business is going to tell them everything that, that you want to hear to buy the business. But where's the money coming from?

And primary question, isn't it? That is the primary question. The money is coming from down payment and eligible sources and Rob's is one of them. And if they're not talking to these searchers about Rob's, which I'm sure they're not, cause many of them probably don't even know about a Rob's we're missing opportunities, Susie. Uh, same thing with SBA lending, you know, a lot of the brokers that are selling businesses.

tend to talk SBA credit policies and eligibility. And you know, that's not their wheelhouse. So I always stress, stay in your wheelhouse, everybody with what your industry expertise is and make sure if you are going to be out in the market looking for a Rob's or an SBA loan, you're, you're getting advice from an expert in that industry. Um, would you.

Agree. I agree with that a lot. And, um, I'm a fan of AI. My LinkedIn headshot is an AI photograph, but I get worried about folks that are preaching on a topic that they've let AI write for them. And they're not experts on that topic. Yeah. And it happens, you know, in my world as well. And that, that really makes me nervous for folks. It makes me nervous too. A new trend that I'm seeing is, um,

people are selling how to buy a business online courses, how to sell a business online courses, and our smartphones obviously pick up what we're talking about. And I guarantee you, I'll look at Facebook after this call and I'll have ads about how to buy a business online course and to pay here. And a lot of these folks that are online influencers, they're buying those courses and repurposing them. They're repurposing them.

And selling them and the information inside is not necessarily accurate because it's either AI driven or they just Googled it up. Right, Susie? It's like, whoa, stop. That is super, super unfortunate. You know, I want to go back to risk again. People say to me, oh, it's a risk to use your retirement funds. And that may be the same person who didn't consider a Rob's to get their deal done, but did use a HELOC.

They took equity from their house for this deal. And they're like, because if my business fails, I won't have any retirement funds. But this is what happens sometimes. That business, they got off the ground with a HELOC. What happens if it gets in trouble? And then the only thing left is retirement funds. And you've put your house at jeopardy. It makes more sense to me to use retirement funds, leave your home out of it.

Unless you absolutely have to bring it in. Right. Or how many times have I heard somebody cashed in their 401k early to use as down payment to buy a business. And that's what makes me want to cry. Depending on where you live. If you're under 59 and a half and you cash out your retirement fund, it could be 401k IRA, whatever kind of retirement plan you have at under 59 and a half, they're going to hold a 10 % penalty.

And then we're going to go back to the big number, the original number, and you're going to be taxed as income on that amount. Now you're not going to pay that tax until next year, but what people don't pay attention to is, are you taking this distribution? Is it going to put you in another tax bracket individually? Is it going to make your personal taxes go up because you just dumped $800 ,000 into your personal assets? Yeah. When you could have just rolled it over tax free.

That's right. And most people still are not aware of that. And listen, it is what it is. There's a lot that we're not aware of. Or maybe we're aware of the wrong information. So get it from the right source. I just want to thank everyone that stayed with us here in the room.

all of you in, you know, before we wrap up the show here to say goodbye, if you do have a question, feel free to raise your hand. If not, please do connect with Susie DM her. She is wonderful. I have funded a few business acquisition deals with Susie over the years where the borrowers did use their 401k and rolled it over into the Robs. There's actually a couple more that are in motion that are looking to do this.

And, um, I think it's just wonderful. And remember, it's not just for starting up a business. You can use the Robs. I think you told me stories prior that people use Robs as down payment to purchase a commercial real estate to, um, uh, move the business into maybe that was renting prior, right? Yes. Uh, yes. Let's talk about that for one second. So we got, do we have time? You bet we do. Let's hear it. Super.

So in SBA lending, oh, hang on, I got a puppy with his mouth on something he's not supposed to have. In SBA lending, it's not allowed to put the, if you're using a ROBS, you have to put the real estate and the business within the C -corp. The C -corp has to own all the assets in a ROBS, which is not the traditional or historical way to do a deal like that. Most business owners want to own the real estate in an LLC individually.

And then they're able to lease that space to their operating business. That's your traditional historic way to do that. But a Rob's prevents that from happening. You have to keep everything in the C corp. So I had a deal last year, maybe it was a year before where my referral partner called me and said, Hey, this guy did a Rob's in 2016. His business is super successful. Now he needs some real estate to put a warehouse on. Can he put it in a separate entity? And I said, no, not as long as he's still in a Rob's.

He said, what can we do? I said, find out from your client or prospect if the 401k plan, how much dollar wise does it still own in the corporation? Because some people will buy those shares back away from the plan as time goes on. And it was only like 48 ,000 that the 401k still owned in the C Corp. And so what my lending partner did for that was he loaned him enough to exit out of his robs.

That way we could split the real estate out of the corporation and then buy the business. I mean, by the real estate. So that I thought that was a very creative use of being able to get out of that restraint against what's called an EPC OC type structure. Yeah. Right. And then that's called creative financing again and bank approved. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's great. Well, wonderful. Well,

Thank you, Susie, for being our guest today with Dial In with Deb and the work you do supporting small business owners, those who want to start up, those who want to buy a business, buy equipment, working capital, you name it. How much trillion again in - $38 trillion of retirement funds floating around the US right now. Floating around and -

probably saw a bit of a decline over the last year or two, I'm going to gather. Yeah. Uh, but what a way to turn those funds around. And I like how, what you mentioned earlier, you know, the average age of, of folks that are looking to acquire businesses today, it's a more mature seasoned corporate professional that's responsible. And, um, I was on a podcast the other day and I was pleasantly surprised to hear that the,

delinquency rates when it comes to SBA loans is still hovering at 2%, which is not bad at all. All considering what the economy has been like these days. So, all right, Susie, we will do this again and educate our LinkedIn friends about Rob's and how to pull 401k tax free. I want to thank you so much. Thank you, Deb. It's always a great time to meet with you. I love the

the pre -planning that we get into and talk about things we want to cover together. I love the way that you market this for us. Guy in financial is just pleased to have you as a referral partner. Oh, thank you. And everyone in the audience for sticking in there with us. I hope you receive some great education today and enjoy the rest of your week and continue to support small business. And we'll see you next time. Thank you, Susie. Thank you, Deb. Thank you, audience. Okay.

Bye bye. Bye bye.