Steve and Norm open with that familiar, slightly surreal feeling of realizing just how much time has passed since the IBM Personal Computer first showed up in 1981. From there, they use that moment as a jumping-off point to talk about how dramatically technology has changed everyday life. What started in the era of giant mainframes eventually became personal computing, and with that shift, technology moved out of specialized institutions and into ordinary workplaces and homes.

As they talk it through, Steve and Norm point out that this change brought huge benefits. Computing became more accessible, information became easier to reach, and whole industries were transformed by the fact that regular people could now use tools that once belonged only to large organizations. But they also make it clear that this progress came with tradeoffs. The same technology that makes life easier and more connected has also created serious problems around security, privacy, and how much of our personal data we give away in exchange for convenience.

That leads them into a broader warning: it’s easy to get swept up in what technology can do for us without thinking enough about the risks. Steve and Norm encourage listeners to enjoy the benefits of modern tools, but not to lose sight of the vulnerabilities that come with them. Their point isn’t that progress is bad, but that it should be approached with open eyes.

The conversation then widens into politics, where they draw a parallel between changes in technology and changes in the political world. In particular, they look at the Democratic Socialists of America and the influence that movement has had on the Democratic Party. Steve and Norm frame this as part of a larger ideological shift in modern political discourse, and they argue that the relationship between technology, power, and political ideas deserves close attention because it will help shape the future of democratic government.

Stephen Palmer is the Managing Partner for the law firm, Palmer Legal Defense. He has specialized almost exclusively in criminal defense for over 26 years. Steve is also a partner in Criminal Defense Consultants, a firm focused wholly on helping criminal defense attorneys design winning strategies for their clients.

Norm Murdock is an automobile racing driver and owner of a high-performance and restoration car parts company. He earned undergraduate degrees in literature and journalism and graduated with a Juris Doctor from the University of Cincinnati College of Law in 1985. He worked in the IT industry for two years before launching a career in government relations in Columbus, Ohio. Norm has assisted clients in the Transportation, Education, Healthcare, and Public Infrastructure sectors.

https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/

Recorded at the 511 Studios, in the Brewery District in downtown Columbus, OH.

[email protected]

It's depressing.

Yeah. Yeah. So you kids who say, yeah, one day I'm going to do this, or one day I'm. You don't realize how fast time really goes.

It goes faster as you get older.

It does.

It'd be interesting to know, though, back then, everything was desktop. It would be interesting to know if now sales are much more laptop than desktop. I bet they are.

Yeah. I remember talking to my buddy about this, who is sort of a computer guy. And there was a time that everything was mainframed.

Yeah, before this, I think. So you had these huge rooms and all this stuff and everything.

Information had to be centralized because you couldn't trust end users.

And then they have access. That's right. And then we created the individual personal PC. So everything. They got away from the mainframe and.

Distributed that information widely.

That's right. So you had your own little fl. Your own memory, your own whatever. Yeah. And now everything's back to the clouds and mainframe.

It's sort of an interesting.

Well, there were a lot.

I'm no tech geek.

I mean, there were a lot of flubs where people, even CIA people, they would leave the office, Right. With a personal PC, a laptop, and forget that it's in their car or it had unauthorized data on it. And then that, you know, gets stolen.

And all of a sudden people's Social Security numbers or their military records or whatever are all over the, you know, like the dark Web.

Yep.

And so, yeah, so I think, you know, this revolution we went through that IBM started and kind of lost to Apple, that. That whole thing came with some downsides, too.

It did. They sold 750,000 units in its first few years, shifting personal computers from hobbyist kits to corporate office tools.

And you know, the thing about the Apple. What else is interesting about this is that IBM quickly permitted others to clone it.

Yeah.

So you had the Compaq.

Absolutely.

Dell.

Sure.

The other one that used to. You know, there's hundreds of brands now.

Right.

That could just make it.

Yeah.

You know, and so it was a different model. Apple has never done that.

No.

Apple hardware is Apple hardware, and that is it. And their software is pretty proprietary, too.

Yeah. And it. And it mimics a lot of what IBM, you know, PC standard software on an Apple is now kind of looks the same.

Yeah.

You know, in many ways. So they've figured that out. It used to be. It was.

If you, if you went from PC to Apple or the other direction, it was a huge learning curve and they've really simplified that now. It's not like, you know, English to, you know, Martian or something.

Well, it used to be.

I remember when it used to be that if you opened up an IBM, it really showed you a DOS screen and you would have to type in stuff and, you know, whatever.

Yeah.

Apple comes out with basically Windows oriented, the click and point and click type stuff.

Yeah.

And we all.

IBM.

He just scoffed at such nonsense. But it was easy. And that's where, you know, the kids and the education and students started using it.

Yeah.

And then along comes Windows 95. And I think, I'm not mistaken, Rolling Stones. Start me up. I think, I think Microsoft bought the rights to use that for their commercials.

Anyway, I might be. Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm sure there's thousands of listeners fact checking us as we speak.

But anyway, lots going on we missed last week, but we're back this week, without a doubt. You know, we're on the brink of the second, third, fourth, whatever, failed communist revolution. But that's okay.

We're laughing all the way through it.

Yeah.

So the dsa, the Democrat Socialists of America wing of the Democrat Party, or a lot of people think it's become the Democrat Party, suffered a pretty stunning loss last night. The predictions were for the Wisconsin governor's race that Francesca Hong, of Korean descent, had a double digit lead in the polls.

Turns out those polls were full of crap and were wrong. And that's not too surprising because a lot of times these mainstream polls are actually done to steer voters to disappoint or depress the vote.

Right. She's winning so big anyway. Why would I waste my time?

The guy that beat her was pulling fourth at one time, and he actually dropped out of the race and came back. And, and so this moderate that beat her, beat her by a pretty narrow, I think, a half of a point, you know, very close race.

But the point, the point being that she was supposed to blow him out with all of this woke stuff about, you know, let's get rid of Thanksgiving and get rid of fireworks and let's defund the cops and all this. And clearly, even though it's a pretty blue state, the people in Wisconsin just, they weren't.

Well, is he. So this was the actual election. Right. This was not a primary.

This was a primary.

That's okay.

So she's going to face.

He is David Crowley.

Yeah. David, this moderate is going to face somebody in the fall from the Republican Party Party.

Yeah. So this will be. You know, who would have thought that somebody advocating for a racist Thanksgiving meal. Somebody. I mean, her, she was a loon.

Yeah. She said stuff like she struggled that her biracial son, who is part some version of Caucasian.

And, and I hate this kind of talk because I don't know what white is. And we've talked about. I don't know what white is. Black is, Asian is. I, I don't understand any of that. But at any rate, she said, not me.

She said that she's uncomfortable with her son's part whiteness. And, And I'm.

Well, that. That. Boy, that.

I mean, I mean, you know, and that she's somewhat embarrassed by it. Doesn't how to handle it, struggles with it. And I'm just. I, I mean, it blows me away that, that people talk like that in such obvious racist ways.

Why don't you just become an American?

I mean, it's sick.

Become an American. It doesn't matter what color you are then. I mean, Norm, I'm a little uncomfortable with your white because you're not all white.

I'm a little uncomfortable. Your skin's a little dark. I, I see a little bit of bronze there. Perhaps a little Middle Eastern descent.

Right.

I don't know about you.

Right, right. Partly black Irish. I mean, the whole thing is just silly.

And really, if it was just silly, I could let it go, but it's actually deleterious to our country.

Dangerously silly.

Yeah. I mean, we just, it seems like ever since Obama, we've amped up this focus on race and dei and you see it all across our country, and we.

Almost every conversation or every decision or every outcome is now colored by some sort of analysis about whether or not it has to do with a person's race, their religion or their gender. And I, I've just, It's, it's, it's like, it's almost like we've gone back 200 years and we still have this.

Well, they, they've got to obsession with race.

They have to find a way to get elected. And it's like, you know, last time around, there's this big push. I don't know if you've been following this.

I'm sure you have, where all these dsa, AOC type, Bernie Sanders type, they're all now sort of leaving behind the cancel culture that they created. They're acting like they're laying it to rest.

Yeah.

Somebody can make a mistake and somebody can do this. Let's lay this to rest.

Now, of course, when somebody said something like when Donald Trump tripped up and made a case or said something stupid, they won't let that go. No, no.

It's all one way.

It's all one way. Right. But now they're willing to leave all these bygones be bygones. Yeah. He did say one time that America deserved 9, 11 or what, you know, whatever.

Right.

Or he was on a stage with. They were talking about Elsa on stage with Hasan Piker. Yeah, but, but, you know, he's come around now and he doesn't really hate the country.

And, you know, whatever. We're, we're going to let that go. It's nonsense. I hope we don't fall for it, but they've got to find something.

And the one thing they seem to continually go back to is they have to find racism in everything because.

Yeah, I'm, I'm glad you brought that up because there is a larger picture to this dsa and there, there is a pushback from the center of the Democrat Party. I hope voices like James Carville and Bill Maher have said. Bill Maher actually said I can see myself voting for JD Vance if, if.

This is votes in play. Right.

Yeah. If, if AOC or, or, well, Mondani can't run for president because he wasn't born in America, but at any rate, you know, mainstream.

And, and James Carville, a longtime Clinton advisor and stalwart on the Democratic Party, he's actually said he'll leave the party if the DSA takes over, that the party, the big tent's not big enough for him, he will leave.

And anybody who's gone back, and I did a little bit of a dive into this. Not recently, but a while back when Mandani was running. I don't know if it's still out there, but at the time it was out there.

And assuming it's legitimate because AI and now can invent everything. But I remember watching some clips of a multi person, I call them the Tic Tac or the Hollywood Square zoom type meeting.

Okay.

Where all these DSAs are talking about what they want to do. They're going to sort of slowly infiltrate the Democratic Party. They're going to take it over. They're going to then, you know, make everybody.

Their goal is not to be Democrats.

Yeah.

Their goal is to be communists.

Yeah.

And they call them democratic socialists. But that's not what this is.

Yeah.

This is Marx. This is pure Marxism. This is pure. That's what the point Bill Maher was making, you know.

Right.

The rhetoric that I am hearing from them is all Communist manifesto, Marxist stuff. This is not just socialism.

And I.

To the extent there's a difference.

Well, and I. And I think it's. It's really come to the attention of some of the people in the middle who want it to be, I don't know, hip or stylish or.

I don't know what it was.

But 17,000 New Yorkers, you know, for example, 17,000 New Yorkers got a notice in the mail that their second property or even their primary, because, you know, they made errors in some cases, but their second property would be subject to this extreme tax that. Mom, Donnie paid.

A fair tax or.

Yeah, the terror tax. You know, I don't know why it has such a weird name, but basically they want to.

They want to absolutely crush you with an additional property tax if you own a second piece of property that could be residential in nature in New York City. And some of the people who supported Mamdani are absolutely taking it. And I guess, you know, there's litigation.

A judge kind of put a pause on this or extended the deadline for people to can, you know, to file a. A clarification, you know, to. To try to get it removed from their land. But this is the kind of stuff.

I mean, they're coming, you know, he said, I told you when I campaigned we were going to tax the rich. And then he taps on the camera lens. Guess what? We're taxing the rich.

Yeah.

And it turns out the rich. The rich, those. What, what was it? The top 900 people income in New York City provide $5.5 billion in city taxes.

The top like 900 earners in New York City, if they leave, if 900 people leave, that means New York loses 5.5 billion.

Well, he doesn't care because his goal is to take over the property. They want to foreclose on it. Take. They're going to create regulatory schemes and taxing schemes that force people to walk away from it.

Yeah.

And then I'm not talking about the second homes necessarily, but the rental part, whatever. And they're gonna take it over.

Doesn't care about the bodegas, the little grocery stores, you know, government grocery store, can put him out of business. And he's just fine with it.

He's just fine with that.

Yeah, right. You're correct. Right.

Because that's his agenda. Now, these are the. I, I here, here's what, here's what I struggle with, is that it's sort of like this. Cancel, cancel culture.

This is what they have said they're going to do. This is what Madani said he was going to do.

Yeah, he did.

And it's the. These people have said, and this is Bill Maher's point too. Can't I take them at their word when they say they're going to do these things?

But then there's like this group. It's almost like, don't worry about this. They're not really going to do what they say they're going to do.

We just need to do this to grab, you know, Jon Stewart is famous for this or is sort of doing this.

Well, the German middle class, when Hitler was coming to rise, they, they were like, yeah, that stuff's in his book. He doesn't, he's not really going to kill people and take over.

Same with the useful idiots. Understood. It's like they don't understand this is what they want to do. It's what they say they're going to do.

And why can't we take them at their word?

And what I don't understand, and you know, maybe the middle of the party, of the Democrat Party is finally catching on and they're gonna try to boot these people out. But it might be too late. I don't know.

Right.

It might be too late.

I think the anti Semitism that's also wrapped up in this is, is a, it's too big of a pill for a lot of the traditional Democrats. They can't, they can't get past this river to the sea. The support for the October 5th attack by Hamas.

Well, her people do her things, Norm. Right.

Wow. I mean, it's, you know, you're having a lot of Very. I would say, middle of the road, especially Jewish Americans.

Take a second look at the agenda of what's now becoming the Democrat Party. If DSA is going to take it over.

Well, and I don't. It's such a.

They can't abide by that.

We need somebody smarter than I to figure this. This out. And maybe it's. Maybe there's a simple. It probably is a pretty simple answer.

Now I think about it, you've got this weird melding of what I'll call Islamist radicalism. Hate the Jews take over river to the sea.

El.

Yeah. These guys.

Yeah.

With, you know, dyed in the wool. Bernie Sanders, Marxists.

Yeah.

And those two things aren't consistent.

No.

On their face.

No on their face.

But they have found some cons. It's like, I think they have a consistent enemy and that's the United States of America.

Yeah.

And they want to take it down. I hate America. So we both hate America. But who wins in the end? Like, how does this marriage occur? And who wins in the end?

And.

And I think to your point, how are they getting these, the suburban middle class to buy into this?

Yeah.

Because on its face that the anti Semitism is open and obvious.

Yeah.

It's just right there.

Yeah.

You know, all of it. Yeah, absolutely. And I don't understand, you know, how somebody looking at this rationally couldn't say so.

I think there's a deeper problem and that is. I think we've talked about this before. It's like you get these. It's almost like the Democratic Party just. They publish.

Here's what it is to be a Democrat. You have to believe this, this, this and this and this. Even if you don't believe it, you still have to. You still have to agree with it.

And you don't get to nitpick any of these issues because Democrat, this is you.

Yeah.

And it's helped them, I think, at times because, you know, they all seem to get on board for the big votes whether they agree or not.

Right.

And the Republicans don't do that.

Right.

The Republicans will fraction or faction off a little bit.

I mean, look at Tucker. He's going to start his own party. Yeah.

Well, you know, I don't think Tucker was ever a complete. He's not conservative in the way I was or the way.

I know he said ding bad.

But.

But you're right.

So. But you know, the guy. The Republicans don't do this.

Yeah.

And it comes down to, I think, a fundamental disconnect from what we would. How we would ground our morality in Western values. And if you eliminate that, then you can basically agree with anything.

Yeah, but our Western moral values on their face require us to be discerning about what we agree with and what we don't and not just get along and go along.

And when the mullahs, when Khomeini got in, he. He shot. He. He jailed and shot and eliminated the communist element.

Yeah.

And it became a completely religious state. There was no communism left. He just got rid of it. Because that's going to happen.

You know, if we became, if the DNC became completely besotted with Islam, I don't know where Bernie and the communists think that they're going to go because they're going to get eliminated.

Yeah, I mean, look, it is a theocracy by definition.

That's right. And they don't believe in women's rights. And I mean, there is so much orthodoxy in, in radical, radical, not mainstream Islam.

But I'm talking about the fundamentalist views where, you know, that they're waiting for the 12th Imam and, you know, and the virgins, you know, if you kill yourself and blow people up, you, you, you know, your afterlife is guaranteed. Those kinds of nuts there, Steve, there's just, there's no room for, as you say, the suburban housewife view of how things should be.

Her world would be turned upside down by this. And how they don't see that is quite beyond me. It's, it's, it's, it's like. It's a very lazy intellectual take. Is it just, I hate Trump?

I mean, if, if that's all it is. That's, that's silly. I mean, that's.

Yeah, that, that's like getting rid of your, I don't know, you're poodle because your kid got bit by a pit bull, you know, over at the neighbor's house, and now you hate all dogs.

Okay, so you can believe that Trump is a jerk and you can't stand him, but why would you throw out all of your American values because you're upset at him?

Because there's people like Jon Stewart, there's this belief that they don't really mean it. They don't really mean it.

Okay?

And I think that's it. I think it's denial. They don't really mean what they say. They don't really mean, mean that we're going to be a complete communist.

They don't mean communism. They mean, like a different kind of socialism.

Okay.

They don't mean taking over all the property and giving it to the government in New York City, even though that's what he wants to do and he's actually working toward that. It's going to be something different. It's just. They're just going to give us free health care and free food.

I would like. I would like to. To. I would like to have that.

I would like to be convinced of that, Steve, because that actually leaves open the door that you can educate those people, because if they don't believe that, that means they're at least thinking. They're at least thinking, Yeah, I hear what they're saying, but I don't. But see, I think it's more emotional.

Look, I think they're not even thinking. They're not analyzing.

They are not. Look, when people use the rhetoric like Bill Maher was pointing out, like we're gonna. The government control of personal prop.

We're going to eliminate personal property. It's racist.

Yeah.

To have personal property. And you're telling me that the suburban mother going to the grocery store in her suburban.

Right.

Her $80,000 SUV. That's right.

To Giant Eagle market district and picking out from 50 different kinds of cheese gourmet, you know, and, you know, comfortably living on a half a mill on household income.

Right.

Like, I don't think they. She quite understands what's going on here. You know, that goes. That is completely destroyed in this.

Completely.

It's. It's not that everybody else gets to have what she has, is that she has to give away what she has.

Like I said, When Dr.

In that movie, Dr. Zhivago, when he comes home from the war between the Red Rush, the Red Bolsheviks and the White Russians, and he comes home and he. He enters the family home and he sees that there's like eight other families now living in the home.

And the commissar meets him at the front door and says, hey, this is not your house anymore. This is the people's house. And he. And he looks around and he understands that, you know, it's his life and his parents up there and his.

And his wife's parents that are at stake. As far as his reaction. Because they'll haul him out and shoot him.

Yeah.

And he says, oh, yes, this is a much better arrangement. It's far more fair.

Yeah.

And does it have to come to that?

You know, is your house in Upper Arlington now going to house illegal immigrants or people who are destitute, and you're going to come home someday in your $80,000 EV SUV and walk in the door and be greeted by kind of a similar arrangement at some point.

Yeah. Or, you know, you're. It seems almost insane that that could happen in this country.

But that's what people are advocating for, the elimination of private property. That's what it means, guys.

That is what it means.

That's what they're saying it means. And that's what Bill Maher is pointing out.

They're advocating to take over, get a majority in the Senate and the House of Representatives and then immediately disband the Senate.

Yes.

So. And then have the judicial branch and the executive branch subservient to what would then become Congress, the House of Representatives.

Yeah.

So just a flat out majority rule.

Exactly. Mob rule, which specifically was protected against in our Constitution. That. That was the whole point of a representative democracy. That.

That was the idea, you know, so.

That things not happen to protect the minorities, folks. It was designed to protect the minority.

That's why every state has two senators to balance out big states versus tiny states. That's why there's, you know, an electoral college. That's why there's all these structures. That's why, frankly, I mean, if it was just.

We could eliminate Congress if all we had to do was get on our phone and go, okay, do you want the Save America act to be passed? Yes or no? Are you in favor? Well, we'll direct them. We could all just vote on it. What do we need a congressman?

Well, they're not going to do that. Because they don't trust you to vote correctly. Yeah. No, no, no. So that's. That's different.

Yeah, that's different.

And this is what these are all. So here's what's interesting to me. It's like, do these people. We probably hijacked your news show here. These people are.

It's almost like modern suburbanites are discounting, if not ignoring, if. Maybe it's complete ignorance that our founders actually kicked all this stuff around. They actually considered all this. They researched it.

They tried twice. The Articles of Confederacy and then the Constitution. They had to do it twice because it wasn't good enough. The first.

It's like we spent a lot of time figuring this out and creating a country where this stuff didn't happen.

That's right.

Where, if you happen to live in Maine, you could function just the same as if you lived in Ohio or Florida or Georgia and the Civil War happened. I mean it wasn't perfect. But we're getting closer.

Right.

And they want to, they want to just dismantle it like it was a complete. It's just a white supremacist.

And it's.

A racist farce of a governmental structure.

And Steve, our founding documents admit right up front that in order to form a more perfect union, not in order to form a perfect union, in order to form a more perfect union, they build right into it that they know it's not perfect. They know we haven't reached the highest level that this country could be at.

It's very aspirational and it leaves open the toolkit for us to make this a better country. There is, there are rules on how you can do it and to wholesale junk that shows that they don't want to play by the rules.

They, they simply want to assert their will.

Any how anybody can trust anyone that says just give me all the power and I'm going to solve all your problems.

Yeah.

What could go wrong?

Yeah.

And what historically has ever gone wrong? Like everything. Right. This is the cause of world wars.

Sure. Give me all the power and starvation.

And star millions and millions of people getting killed. And we have navigated that here in the United States since the inception. And people want to throw it away. They want to throw it.

And you know who wants to throw away the most? The people that are, aren't Americans. They may be American citizens, but they don't love the country. They say they don't like the country.

They want to fundamentally change the country. They want to do this, they want to do that. We're going to make it equal. We're going to make it this, we're going to make it everything. It's not now.

Right.

And under that guise, under that hat, they're enticing people back to that ugly ideology.

There are some really hopeful signs. I, I noted that when she was running this Francisco Hong Kong and this El said guy who won his primary very narrowly that over that Katie.

What was her name? Katie Smith or whatever the, the, the lady that he faced in Michigan. There are some good signs.

One of the best signs to me is the population that you could argue historically would be like either Native Americans or people who, whose ancestors were here during slavery of African American descent. They are not really buying into the DSA either of those cultures. They're really not, they're really not on board with it.

And I think it's somewhat because of this racist ideology that has coming along with the dsa.

I think if You're African American or a Native American, and you look at what they say about Jews, that's a pretty big warning sign that, well, maybe. Maybe my culture isn't, you know, maybe. Maybe people that look like me, American Indians or.

Or blacks, maybe we don't fit in to their desired idea of what. Of what a. A trustworthy member of society is if they don't like the Jews because of racial reasons.

Well, gosh, my people went through that and are still struggling with it, and I don't think they're on board in big numbers.

I don't know. I don't know.

It's. It. I think that probably explains why in Wisconsin, in places like Milwaukee and in.

And in Michigan, places like Detroit, where these DSA candidates did not get huge black turnout. And I think it's because they don't trust their ideology, which is a good.

Sign, or it's at least not striking a chord that gets them interested.

No.

And we'll see. The problem ultimately will be this. You've got the youth of America in the universities and elsewhere that ultimately swing this.

I think you've got the suburbans and the youth and. Who are more susceptible to this communist rhetoric than those two groups. Right. I mean, because when you're a kid, everything seems unfair.

Yeah. That's why they shot Charlie Kirk, because he was trying to turn university campuses, truly, into an exchange, an open exchange of ideas. Right.

And they, you know, clearly people couldn't tolerate that.

Yep.

And this guy's like a rock star because he assassinated.

And I've seen it time and time again in my law practice. I've seen it time and time again on the media.

We were on campus as young men. We saw it on campus. You know, if you wanted to get the approval of a professor, you didn't challenge his poppycock in. In open class.

That's right.

And kids hide their real beliefs.

That's right.

They won't answer polls honestly even when they grow up and become, you know, middle. You know, middle age. I. I believe a lot of these polls, the Republicans just. They either don't participate or they answer falsely because they just.

They don't want to be perceived somehow as not part of the hip culture or whatever it is, or they just don't want to get in an argument with somebody, so they vote privately differently than.

Peer pressure. Is a powerful thing. Yes, it is. It is a powerful thing.

Yeah.

And, you know, the big picture here, as I was talking to a buddy of mine, and he.

I said, listen, I used to have debates with the old Blue Dog Democrats about should we bail out the auto industry or, you know, how much, you know, what should we do here? What should we do there? Yeah, but the, the debate was never whether we are the best country around, like whether we have pride in the.

United States, Joe Lieberman, Sam Nunn, those kinds of Democrats. Even Hubert Humphrey, who was in his day very, very left out of, out of Minnesota, was vice president for lbj.

None of them were that nuts as the, as they are now, you know, Ed, Edmund Muskie and even lbj, who's,.

Who's Great Society, the ultimate Blue Dog. And this was a guy who, he still loved the country, but he just thought he could spend his way into fixing poverty, which lunacy.

I mean, he was an old fdr, New Deal guy too. But it's like those, while those were socialist type programs.

Right.

It was not communist. They weren't advocating for communism.

No, they were targeted. They were, it wasn't for everybody. It was for certain elements in the population. The idea was to bring them up and then phase it out at some point.

Yeah, we're going to, we're going to try to fix poverty. We're going to, we're going to the Great Society, whatever it is.

Right.

And it's sort of an experiment that we can, we're so mighty. We have all this money, we have all this power.

Right.

Why can't we just use it to fix poverty?

We put men on the moon. I mean, you know, we won World War II, so the, the federal government can solve anything.

We can do it. All right. And there's a whole generation, I think, of boomers that sort of still sort of ascribe to that.

And, and a lot of, a lot of old timey Republicans, you know, George Bush, the first.

Yep.

Bob Dole.

Yep.

I mean, you can go down the list of Republicans who believed that, you know, the big footprint of the federal government can solve these.

Even J.D. Vance today.

Oh, yeah.

A lot of this is where I do, you know, where I diverge with him a little bit. And you know, he's like he is,.

But he's getting an education on this fraud task force.

Yeah.

He's seeing and he, I, I bet he continues to evolve on this issue.

We'll see.

Because it's been so misused and he's presiding over. So we have to, he's the guy, he's now the Doge guy.

Basically, you take everybody's money and the government with all its wisdom is then going to allocate it where it's needed the most and implement programs where it's needed the most. So you got to put it back up here.

Right.

So the money's been taxed, you take it, you put it back up here.

Yeah.

And now you got to filter it through a whole nother round of taxes and infrastructure.

And now it's half as much.

And now it's happening at best.

At best. At best it's been gobbled.

And then you're going to dole it out and nothing's going to happen because one, the program was ill fated from the beginning. Two, there's not enough money. And the answer is never that it was an ill fated program and not enough money.

It was that we didn't get to do enough of it. So now we got to start over and do more of it and make it bigger and make it bigger. And all it does is bloat up the system with more fraud.

And the bigger it gets, the more apt you are to have fraud. How do I know that? Because it's all built on human beings and human beings are very self interested and they're going to do whatever they can.

And ask a program director whose job it is to for $150,000 a year to dole out money whether the problem is solved. Of course it's not solved because then he loses his job. You know, it could be as that, it could be that simple.

And then, then expound upon that exponentially. It's an abject failure.

Yeah. The, the other little signs that this DSA thing may be cracking.

A DNC staffer came out with a book and she wrote that for example, the DEI insistence by the Soros foundation is such that in order to now, now to receive money from the Soros Foundation, a campaign or a local DNC office has to all their new hires have to be people of color.

And so she happened to be a Caucasian female and she said her opportunities for advancement within the DNC evaporated overnight because they want to take those checks.

And another example is in Massachusetts they, they now have an 11 person Muslim hiring commission where for future state job hires, this commission is boosting opportunities, showcasing that each state Department, when they put a job out should consider Muslims for those positions. And so you literally have a religious bias in the case of this Massachusetts program and a racial bias in the case of the Soros DNC hiring criteria.

And to a lot of people that are traditional Democrats, those when they look at a, a race or a religious requirement, I mean that's, that's Hitler stuff. That's that's like what we used to call WASP culture. White Americans, Anglo Saxon. Right. We were afraid of those people.

We were afraid of the traditional Boston Brahmin kind of people that would only pick people of their religion and their race. Well, now the, the opposite is happening on the other side.

And I think those cracks are why people like AOC are now backing off of this woke version one where they said, oh, let's get rid of the police. Let's. Let's get rid of ice.

You know, it was such a stressful time, Norm.

River to the sea. Yeah, that was Covid talk. And now we're, you know, now we're chilling out. No, man. I think people.

Well, Bill Maher and Carville, these, these guys, other Democrats, I'm not so sure. They can't. I don't, I don't.

Because Bill Maher is an old white guy. Carville's an old white guy, or even Bernie. Bernie's an old white guy. Look, these people are easily vilified by the same rhetoric that they used to.

Propound, well, locally, the DEI hires.

And I, I don't like saying this, but they have blown up at the Columbus Public School district, for example, the largest school district out of 800 districts in Ohio, if you count county cirs and other kinds of school districts. If you add up the 600 and whatever, 25 local school districts plus the counties and the MRDDs, there's.

There's about 800 what you would call education school districts of one ilk or another in Ohio. The largest happens to be here in Columbus, Ohio. They are $50 million in debt. And guess what, Steve?

It came out a couple weeks ago that 40 million of that was lost to overpayments for a employee benefits brokerage company called AOM. And it was by, as you say, $150,000 a year. Treasury, Columbus Treasurer's office.

Person who was hired for other reasons than her competence, clearly because her track record is such that over time, $40 million in overpayments were made to this company because she did not read the contract, didn't abide by the terms. They billed her these enormous amounts, and she wrote the checks because it's not her money.

Yeah. And it's so. Right. She just wanted the job so she won't have to do the job. Right.

So the school district is now going to have to make real cuts for children and parents for things like busing or substitute teachers or, or textbooks or whatever. They're 50 million in debt. 40 Million of that was just Staff incompetence. And this is.

This is just one little story in one town, in one little government institution. And, you know, this is being duped. These discoveries about poorly run programs using public dollars are exploding across the country.

And, you know, so look, it's the.

Same every time it's tried. The people up at the top, they got plenty of money, they live comfortably, but everybody else suffers. It's always the same.

I'm curious, Steve, what you think about. I mean, one of the biggest debates going on right now is kind of in your bailiwick as an attorney.

It also has, of course, implications for society at large. First Amendment issues, privacy issues. And that's this whole Flock camera debate.

And I'm sure you must have some thoughts because you've even said here on the program several times, when you're in public, you don't have an expectation or any kind of right to privacy. You can have your picture. I can go out on the sidewalk here in front of this building, and paparazzi can come up and take my picture. Right.

Even though I'm not anybody. But, you know, I mean, you have the right to. To note that, oh, Norm's wearing a black shirt today. I'm going to take his picture.

You know, that kind of doxing has been legal and free to do.

And now, I guess people feel like, with technology, able to track their license plate as they go from the mall to the school to the bank to church to whatever they're doing. It's constructing a pattern of what their life is that can be tapped into. And I'm. Is there a way to tone this down?

No. Is there?

Yeah, I'm just.

I mean, one. I mean, this toothpaste is out of the tube. So there's what I think, what I like, and how I think it's going to play out.

Okay.

I don't like it. I hate it. It scares the crap out of me.

We were talking about the old rhetoric or not rhetoric, the old arguments against communism when we started the show. And George Orwell predicted this. And we're here.

Yeah. The government can hire Flock to essentially construct a profile of you.

So let's just chop it up a little bit. I'm working on cases where my client was identified. I represent people charged with crimes.

My client was identified in the vicinity on Flock cams and maybe even providing enough information alone to convict somebody of a crime.

Okay.

And prove it. All right, well, who's going to argue with that? You're going to ask every Joe, every citizen. Well, it solved a Robbery. Wouldn't you like that?

Yeah, I think that's a great idea. On the other hand, now, Big Brother, literally, Big Brother, is watching everything you do. Everything you do. You were on camera. And so how do we.

How does this mesh with our rights to privacy, which doesn't really exist? Or you're better put. The Fourth Amendment. Can the. Can the government do this under the Fourth Amendment?

And there's lots of law on something called standing. Standing being we as citizens don't have the footing. We're not standing on. On solid footing for us to challenge something.

So if your Fourth Amendment rights are violated, Norm, I can't ra. I can't sue because it's you, not me.

Yeah.

Now it gets dicier when you're out in public. So when we're out in public, we are presenting ourselves to the world. We're driving around, we have a license plate. We have all this stuff.

And so we are giving up, according to the US Supreme Court, certain expectations of privacy just by being out in public. And if you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy, you don't have standing.

And you can see, you know, if you ever watch the sovereign citizens, you know, they. They say this is all in constant. This is all. We're in the matrix.

Yeah.

You can see how this is creating more of that.

Yeah.

Because it feels like you're in the matrix here. You're. Everything you're doing is being watched. Yeah. You can be pulled over for virtually anything. You don't want to participate. You don't agree.

I mean, I can. I can sympathize with. This is never going to work, but I can sympathize with it.

You couple that with digital money, Google Earth, where, you know, like, if you subscribe to a certain version of Google Earth, the enlargements, I mean, they. They can look at your wife's swimsuit from space.

Yep.

I mean, they can. They can enlarge your property view where. Oh, Steve put in a row of bushes over there next to the fence line.

I had, I mean, gutters worked on in my house, and they didn't have to come out and look at the house.

Wow.

They did it with Google Earth.

Yeah. So don't even send a drone. They just satellite.

They satellite. They took the measurements and did it all. It's done.

I mean, that's.

Now is it accurate? I don't know, but it saves them money, which saves me money, because they don't have now. It's like you can just see anyway, the point. The point.

I'M making is this. I believe they are here to stay. And I do not believe that the US Supreme Court is going to strike down the use of flock cameras.

I would love it if they did. Now, it may be that the police may have to get search warrants and offer some sort of justification for doing it.

I don't know how that's going to play out, but it's not going to play out the way we like it.

And that's more of a policy, maybe. Maybe more like a certain city says, hey, our police have to do this. Not necessarily a constitutional requirement.

And some of my colleagues in criminal defense are trying to challenge this. And I. I should just say this. I have another show called Lawyer Talk, and I get all sorts of blowback on this stuff.

One, because we just post clips and people don't hear the whole thing. And secondly, because what I try to do is tell people what the law is.

Yeah. Not what you want it to be.

Not what I believe in. And, you know, there's a difference there.

There is a huge difference.

And you could say that I'm not on the front lines fighting because I'm not out there with. In civil disobedience, like getting charged with these things.

I'm just telling you guys, if you get pulled over and you think that you don't have to show.

Yeah.

You're asking for trouble.

Yeah. Right.

Now, do I agree with all of it? Now do I agree with fly cameras? No. I'm just telling you, I think once you let this cat out of the bag.

Yeah.

Once you let this toothpaste out of the tube.

Yeah.

Once you open Pandora's box, pick your metaphor, pick your cliche, it can't go back in where it's never happened in anything I can possibly think of.

Yeah.

It just never has. So, you know, now we have GPS is in all the cars, and it's. It's the same, you know, it's like once you. Once the technology is there, it's.

You're not going to dial it back, which is relevant to a next segue. You got Bernie howling at the moon. Bernie Sanders about data centers.

Yeah.

He wants to. He wants all Americans to stop using AI or stop generating. It's like you can't do it. You can't. It's like, you know, just to use it. Remember the.

I read the book and saw the movie Jurassic Park.

Okay. Right.

And Crichton wrote the book, but he spent a lot of time on this and a little bit with Jeff Goldblum in the movie. Saying, look, you can't control chaos. You can't control it. Once you let that, once you, once it is unleashed as humans, we can't control it.

And Creighton made that point very well in the book.

It's like you can't just say we're going to recreate dinosaurs that can't reproduce because they're going to find a way, it'll find a way to reproduce. And I think in the book they use frog DNA and certain frogs could reproduce, but it was a little bit far fetched, dispatched.

But the point he was making is don't think you can control this once it's out of the tube.

Sure.

And I, I, or stop it.

And I, I don't think Darwinism is based on mutations. Yeah, that's that, that's how things evolve.

Yeah.

So of course they're going to figure out at some point there'll be a way to reproduce.

That's right. And mathematically, you know, this chaos theory that he was propounding back then was sort of saying the same thing.

So what we have here is like these flat cameras are out guys, they exist and it's just something we have to deal with. I don't like it. I hate it. And for those out there who are going to call me a patsy for the federal, I freaking hate the government.

So I hate it. So maybe it's going to be a patchwork just like other issues like abortion, where each jurisdiction that can control that issue.

Like over in Daytona, they pulled the contract with Flock and the police went around and have put trash bags over all the cameras until Flock comes and retrieves them. Yeah, they've gotten rid of that contract in Dayton, Ohio.

I think what will happen is the US Supreme Court rule, rule on this sooner or later and it'll come up in the context of a criminal case. Somebody challenging their fourth amendment rights to be free from a search and seizure.

And you know, this has happened in things like cell phones and your, your cloud accounts and the court has said you have to have a warrant, even.

Tinted windows on cars.

Right. So this will happen. But I think ultimately Flock cameras are here to stay. And it may, it may well be true that certain localities can opt out,.

But Flock as a commercial enterprise might be able to lease, say a, a billboard and say, okay, Dayton, you canceled our contract. But guess what, there are other customers of ours that want to see what's going on in Dayton. So we'll, we'll install our cameras on billboards.

Yeah. And I think they'll be able to sell that data.

And it won't. Maybe it won't be you, the police department, but it would. It'll be other people.

And from that will emerge a whole body of Fourth Amendment law on what, when and when and how it can be used, what is required of the government in order to gain access to it. Sort of like the ancestry.com and your DNA and all that. It'll sort of be like that. But they're here to stay. They're not going away.

Ancestry. Com. Yeah, that's another ball of wax.

You know, you're talking about AI, And I think one of the emerging things it's becoming probably driven by this data center controversy, which has really caught on with Ohio, for example, having 226 right now data centers, and ultimately they're talking as many as 280 when it's built out or more. But there have been a lot of PSAs, public service announcements, commercials on TV, radio by companies like Chat, GPT and Meta.

Zuckerberg came out a couple days ago and announced this new personal assistant called Glimmer Muse. And there just seems to be an effort now by Silicon Valley to try to connect average end users to why?

Because I'll be honest, Steve, I don't understand. I'm not a tech guru. I don't understand this repeated refrain that I keep.

I hear every congressman and senator, almost without exception, in the White House and industry, they're all saying, we're in this battle with China and we got to win it, and we're only six months ahead of them right now. And I'm like, what battle are you talking about? Please explain this in layman's terms. What the hell AI is. Yeah. I get that it makes robots.

You know, they can be, you know, independent if you program them and all that. But what I don't understand is what is the benefit to me and my house, running my family? Not military stuff. But I don't think end users understand.

I, I certainly don't. Other than maybe my robot vacuum sweeper working a little better. What, what's in it for me personally? Again, not the military.

Well, look, but it's the same.

Not science, research.

I, I can get my head around. I can get my head around this argument. I, I think have this emerging technology. The world does.

Yeah.

And again, we can't unring this bell. It exists.

Yeah.

So we have this emerging technology. Yeah.

And it requires xyz, it requires money, it requires data, it requires resources, it requires research and development, requires all those things. And I don't know that we all know exactly where AI is going to go.

But I'm, I just look, I'm always about two steps behind on technology and I'm just now starting to really, really appreciate what it does for me individually and how it helps me analyze a case. I can now stick an entire case file and I can get, I can get an AI assessment of what's there. I don't rely on it solely but it helps it change.

Like I mean okay, I can, I can do. I'm doing with investments, I'm do. I'm using AI. Sort of like asking an expert, okay, everything.

I designed a pole barn and I let AI give me the basics of it and it was like that. It was instant, instantaneous. I'm designing built in cabinets for my office. I had AI do it. It's like that.

So on its now before I would have pulled out my drafting board and I would have got my scale out and I would have done all those things. All I did was input the measurements and say give me this. And when I didn't quite like that, I said can you tweak it and do this?

And then that came up. Can you give me a picture in my house? If I give you the picture and then they do it, does that.

Maybe I'm just a bad operator. I tried using Chat GPT to get to design a paint scheme and it came back with just terrible reason.

Just like grade school, maybe even worse than it was just awful and I didn't know and it could be I'm just a bad operator of Chat GPT. I didn't know how to tell it. You're doing a bad job. Do better.

You just say, I don't like this color. Can you try a different color?

Sure.

And it'll do it. But I guess. But my point is what does that.

I found that's very clunky is all I'm saying. But I'll be honest with you. I didn't really devote myself marketing it.

Marketing and advertising AI avatars. We could have our show completely generated with AI. We could give it a script. You'd be sitting there, I'd be sitting here and it would just do it.

So look. What?

Aren't you afraid of losing your job as a lawyer?

Yes, because I, when I was in law school I was thinking about these issues and it was like, okay, you've got black letter law, which means, you know, basically Congress or whoever legislature has passed laws that say for example the speed limit is 55. Okay. And that's an example of black letter law, right? If you go over 55, you disobeyed the law. It's per se, it's obvious.

And then there's, you know, developed law from, from the court system where, you know, it, it's, it, it amalgamates like sedimentary rocks, layers on layers, and so there's different kinds of laws. And one brain isn't big enough. I don't care, you know, if you're Alan Dershowitz. One lawyer can't know all that, right?

They can't have Anderson's updates in their head in real time from LexisNexis, but I guess AI could.

Well, this is the same. Correct. And I use it for that. So I use AI research all the time.

So why not wind up a daily Steve? I want a real Steve. But like, I could see people saying, well, rather than paying Steve, you know, Steve, I'm, I'm not, I got.

No, no, no, I'm not giving Steve's rate here, people. I'm just making up a number. But rather than giving Steve $1,000 an hour to represent me in a murder trial, whoa.

I'll hire an AI lawyer for, you know, $0 and have him be my lawyer. I.

We may end up, we may end up with a system like that, sort of like Britain where you have solicitors and you have barristers. You know, it may end up being that way. But here's the point when the carpenter. Am I worried about it?

Yes, I'm worried about it, but I have to shift, I have to dodge, I have to move, and I have to embrace it and figure it out. What I am more worried about is the government artificially trying to stop it.

And then you know that if we stop this progression in the United States, China's not going to do it, and China's going to keep developing it, and then we fall behind. That's the argument. And you can use AI for military, you can use AI for society, but eventually that you can stop development in our country.

But we're going to still want it for the things like we're talking about. And now I've got to buy it from China, and they're making money from it and we're not. We.

Or worse yet, they control the narrative of what AI is giving back. And that's even scarier.

Okay, so so far, what we've talked about are pragmatic things, and I'm about a step behind you on that. I don't understand it all, but I'm willing to learn more about the practice. Pragmatic uses of AI.

One of the things that was said a couple days ago when Zuckerberg announced this glimmer muse.

He said, each American will now be able to have an AI assistant, essentially, or a concierge AI entity that will help you with relationships, your business, your. Your taxes. You're this, you're that.

You know, like he went down a list and then this, and then when they were finished with his little spiel, this free speech advocate came on and that guy said something that just fried my brain. And I, I can't. I still don't understand his point.

He said what Zuckerberg is proposing with an AI assistant for every American is more important than the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution wrapped up in one. And I just went like, what?

He said that Zuckerberg's concept will protect Americans rights, our free speech rights, for example, in the future in a way that the Constitution, the Declaration cannot.

Yeah, I'd have to. What is he talking about? I need to read more on that. So look, I think both are important. Important, but both are. It's like comparing apples to cars.

How is AI going to protect my rights?

I think most people are so scared of this technology that are not techie, you know, like just your average person that he, he looks at what his kids do with chat GPT and they put like a lion on the head of a football player and go, look at that. I made this really cool, like synthetic creation. And you're like, well, I mean, other than goofing off, like making images.

What, it'll design an entire house for you.

Yeah, you mentioned that. That is pragmatic. It'll. It'll.

It'll fix your car.

Okay. I guess I just gotta see this to believe it because just.

So look, start simple.

Yeah.

Just go to Google and go to the AI thing and start asking it questions next time you cook a meal.

Yeah, I've just, I tried it once and I got rebuffed. So. Yeah, I need to dive, tinker a little bit.

All right.

Okay.

Some. Good and bad.

Yeah, good and bad. My winner. You. I know you love this. This Ennis Freedom guy, the.

The guy from Turkey that's a retired NBA player, announced this past week his eligibility to play in the wnba. And he put on a press conference and he said. And he put on a dress at his press conference and he said, you know, I've wrestled with this inner.

You know, I've had this struggle my whole life. Am I a man? Am I a woman? I've decided to put, to put myself out there for the WNBA draft as a woman. Because I've concluded that that's. Yeah.

He said, for purposes of basketball, I'm a woman.

And of course, this guy is. I don't know what he is, you know, 7ft 8. I don't know what he. But I mean, he would absolutely. I mean, he is.

Even as a retired gray beard, this guy would destroy the wnba. And I guess a second fellow has come along, another ex NBA guy. And. And he's done the same thing. And I, you know, sure.

You know, they have their tongue in cheek on this, but you know, how long, Steve, until somebody calls that bluff? Because the majority of the WNBA ladies are saying, oh, yeah, you know, sorry, girls, but trans boys should be able to play in your sports.

Yeah, yeah. They're going to get what they get.

They're going to get what they're asking for.

Yeah.

So this guy's my winner. My loser is Kilmala Harris. She.

She did a video explaining what the pernicious aspects are of the Save America act, where, you know, you're going to have to demonstrate through some kind of ID that you are you. And her quote is the scary part of the Save America act is, quote Kamala's quote, they want you to. To prove who you are. Close quote.

She's really insightful.

Wow. Right. Hey, Kamala. You got it.

The master of the obvious. All right, so I got a couple. Good. We already talked about him, Bill Maher coming out of the closet. We just sort of. I got two goods.

Bill Maher coming out of the closet. Not. But coming out and just basically calling out the.

Yeah, yeah.

And, you know, and you've already talked about the wnba, but the other half of that, Sophie Cunningham and company, who are basically taking this on.

Yes. They are the exceptions.

Unapologetically. Unapologetically. And it brought me to this other thought, and it wasn't all my original thought.

I can't remember where I read it, but it got me thinking about it when I graduated high school at a place called Big Walnut High School, let's just say not a whole lot of racial diversity up at Big Walnut in Sunbury, Ohio, when I graduated. It's all different now, I'm sure.

Oh, yeah.

So I got thrown into college football at a place called the College of Worcester. And there were east coast guys, Cleveland guys, or guys from everywhere. And I was thrown into a football program where now it's about 50. 50.

White and black.

Sure.

Right.

Yeah.

Maybe. Maybe. Who knows? Close.

Yeah.

And there is no. Not a hint of animosity based on race. Now, there was typical. Look, you're a bunch of crackers, virile. You're a bunch of virile football players.

We were fighting, we were hitting each other. You know, it's a. It's that kind of game. But it wasn't racial and it wasn't cliquey that way. And we all wanted to succeed together.

As I watched Sophie Cunningham, not with the one gal was trying to take her out, all these other fouls or their own teammates, they get along, they high five it all. It is what it is. In other words, if you just let athletes be athletes together, I don't believe. Is there racism?

Of course there's going to be some of it, but it doesn't manifest very obviously that way. You just sort of have to let it go. Because I know the gal. Fowler said it was white privilege, that she got kicked out and all this other nonsense.

Yeah.

And somehow in sports, it transcends that. Like, look at football players.

Yeah.

NFL.

Yeah.

NBA.

Yeah.

College baseball. All of it.

Yeah.

But in the wnba, they can't do it.

No. They can't get over.

Why is it.

Yeah.

Why is it, I ask rhetorically.

Well, I know what Ann Coulter would say.

Right. Why is it.

I'm not gonna say it.

So along those lines, there's all sorts of reasons not to, like Abdul El said, plenty. But not to this. This will soon be canceled because he's getting rid of cancel culture.

We're not supposed to go back and criticize all the things that these people have said because then they'd have to explain to Bill Maher why they're communists. But anyway, he would have to explain to me why he praised European soccer as more egalitarian alternative to American football.

He made a substack post responding to the resignation of blah, blah, blah, toxic masculinity at the heart of America's most popular sport.

Beautiful.

And men's sports culture generally is way deeper than a few emails.

Well, there goes the Wolverine vote. Right. So, yeah.

You like football? It's toxic masculinity.

Yeah. Wow.

And I'm here to tell you that toxic masculinity, if it's true, changed my life. Took me from a kid who was struggling to find something to do, people to hang around with a purpose.

I agree with you. My forays into football, I would say, although not at the college level, high school level, they changed my life, too.

I learned that if I wanted to be better, I had to work hard.

You're out there on the field with.

10 Other people answering to them.

And there is a. A play called. And it is a ballet of movement that you've rehearsed, you've practiced under the most rigorous circumstances.

Low on water, hot sun, dust, dirt, grime. You're. You're lifting weights, pumping iron during the week, you're on a certain kind of diet, you're running laps and the coach is screaming at you.

And God darn it, when you're out there on the field and it's you and the other 10 guys and they call, you know, blue 82, and you know what that play is? And, man, it's programmed into you muscle memory. And you carry out your role and you're counting on each of your buddies to do the same thing.

You learned how to work, you learned.

How to fail and depend on people.

You learned how to depend on people. You learned how to succeed, you learned how to win, you learned.

Where's my blocker, Steve?

Right? You learned. And I learned how to get yelled at. I learned that if I wanted to be better, I had to work. And I couldn't complain about it.

I had to do it myself. And was it always fair? Of course not. But neither is life. Like, so many lessons there. And I learned that.

Oh, yeah, like, including. You can get cut, you can. You can get kicked off of this for poor performance or a bad attitude.

And I hang out with those guys today.

Yeah.

All those years later. Now, look, I played other sports. I'm not even saying I was a great football player. I just played.

I wasn't great.

I played other sports.

Sports.

And there's some of that.

Yeah.

But football was different for me. I'm not saying it's not different for everybody, but for me, it was different.

Yeah.

Because of the. The warrior mentality.

Oh, for sure.

The contact, the.

Something different about a sport where you hit people. In baseball, you don't hit people.

It was different. It was different for me. And it's unique and it's American. Yeah. So F U L side off. He's.

He's going to. I think he's going to lose that. That race.

I really do. I hope so. Yeah. Anyway, so this is common sense, Ohio, making sense of everything week in and week out, coming at you right from the middle.