Welcome back to Lending Leadership: The Mortgage Pros—your go-to resource for honest conversations and actionable insights on what’s driving the mortgage industry today.

In this episode, we welcomed Rich Swerbinsky, a true industry leader, master connector, and thought leader with over 30,000 LinkedIn followers. Rich is known for his dynamic approach to networking, branding, and digital presence in the mortgage space, and he's currently serving as Executive Director of the Ohio Mortgage Bankers Association. Rich is also the co-host of the Big Picture Podcast with Rob Chrisman and brings decades of experience to our discussion.

Together, we dove into the importance of in-person networking in a post-pandemic world, the rising tide of digital branding for mortgage pros, and the seismic changes AI is bringing to mortgage operations. We got personal about the evolution of the industry, the need for adaptability among small- and medium-sized lenders, and the hidden potential of content-driven leadership. Whether you’re leading a team, running your own shop, or building your professional network, this episode is packed with hands-on tips and big-picture thinking.

Key takeaways:

1. The Power of Intentional Networking—Especially In Person: We dug into how there’s no real substitute for live, in-person connection when it comes to building lasting professional relationships. Rich illustrated how strategic, purposeful networking goes far beyond cocktail hours—it’s about showing up, sharing best practices, and intentionally connecting with peers and partners. While virtual meetings provide efficiency, nothing can fully replace the engagement and learning that happens during face-to-face events.
2. Why Branding and Content Are Mortgage Must-Haves: Rich drove home that if he were starting a mortgage company today, content creation and branding would be his top focus. Personal and organizational brand-building, especially on social platforms like LinkedIn, gives lenders a competitive edge. Founder-led and employee-led content can elevate both personal and company reputations—plus, it’s a superpower in attracting clients and partners.
3. Leveraging LinkedIn and Social Media—The Practical Way:
4. We shared actionable tactics (like using the LinkedIn “bell” to follow key thought leaders and referral partners). Rich also emphasized that all loan originators should consistently engage on LinkedIn, Facebook, and Instagram—regardless of audience misconceptions. AI tools like ChatGPT can make content creation accessible, helping users ideate valuable posts efficiently and consistently.
5. AI Is No Longer Optional—It’s Transformational:
6. We explored how artificial intelligence is beginning to deliver on its promise in the mortgage landscape. AI-powered underwriting and workflow tools are driving real cost reductions and operational gains. While implementation still takes strategy and change management, lenders who embrace these tools early will outpace competitors in efficiency and adaptability.
7. Small, Nimble Lenders Can Still Win—With Smart Strategy:
8. Despite rapid consolidation and industry shake-ups, there’s huge opportunity for small and mid-sized lenders that leverage digital branding, invest in leadership, and remain agile. Rich underscored that the era of “donuts and bagels in realtor offices” is waning—forward-thinking companies that show up online and in person, embrace modern tech, and prioritize culture and learning will thrive.

This episode is a toolkit for any mortgage leader or professional looking for both inspiration and practical, proven methods to level up—whether that means growing your business, building your personal brand, or just staying ahead of the next industry curve. We’re grateful to Rich for sharing his journey, and as always, hope these insights spark fresh ideas for you and your team.

Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and connect with us on your favorite platform—let’s keep building the future of mortgage leadership, together!

Some sort of strategic partner that's of potential value to you. You know, what better way to try to get closer to them than reading every post they make? Understanding what's important to them. Liking commenting. So, yeah, great little tip Dave just shared there. Yeah. You know, as far as content and, yeah, I would. I mean, I would be building a content machine.

At the height of building one of the most successful networks in the mortgage industry, this entrepreneurial pioneer made a bold move, launching his own company. Onward and upward cons. He's the co host of Big Picture Podcast, the Big Picture Podcast with Rob Christman, and I would say, master connector, thought leader. With over 30,000 LinkedIn followers, his mission is simple but powerful, helping good humans and great organizations grow. Today, Rich Swerbinski joins us in lending leadership, and we're going to talk leadership, connection, thought leadership, and what growth can do for your company. Rich, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thanks for having me. Super excited for the conversation and. Yeah, excited to get into it.

Well, someday when I grow up, I want that intro in. I want to be Rich.

Wow. It's really not that glamorous. Yeah, it's not. Sounds way better than it is. Yeah.

So, well, now.

Well, I mean, there's so much going on in mortgages right now. We're recording this the day of the first day of the government shutdown. We're going to kind of put that to the side because it's so fresh and who knows how it'll develop, but, you know, Rich, what. What do you want to get into? You want to get into your Cleveland Browns? What the record looks like, what the season looks like for you. You just want to. Want to pass that and anything.

Yeah, we should be good to go.

So I was going to send you the stats. Dave and I forgot to send it to you, but, you know, it's probably a good thing.

I think they're one in three. Is that correct?

We are one in three. We are. We beat the packers somehow, which we're still trying to figure out how that happened. We were down 10 nothing with 3 minutes left, so.

Love it.

But just set our draft pick down another five picks. It is really the way most Clevelanders are looking at it, though, so.

Well, I met Rich and we were talking before we got on. Rich, you and I got introduced through the tmc and I think you just cold called me. Right? Is that how we got connected?

I was all over you like a bad rash. Honestly, for I think a couple years before. I finally. It was some conference. We met at you were hosting a cocktail party. I remember meeting you for the first time there. But it was, yeah, it was just like repeated cold outreach till I broke you down. And.

But I remember you sent me a very nice email like a year after that, like, dude, thank you for staying on me. The Mortgage Collaborative thank you. Has provided so much value for our company and I just wanted to say thank you. And then I remember as a salesperson emailing you right back and like, can I use this to send you? Of course. Were like, okay. But that email did help secure me at least another 10 members from TMC. You know, like the people that I had been emailing for years that never got back to me, I forwarded them that email and it worked like it, you know, surprisingly high level. So.

And this is before ChatGPT. So Dave, you actually, this was a true Dave Holland email from the heart. And isn't that amazing what that can do, right?

Well, I mean, for me, the TMC changed kind of the trajectory of the company during the lab group. I think the first one we had in, I was in was outside of Indianapolis and I think I'd been in TMC for 18 months or two years and didn't do anything. I just paid the membership fee and that was it. And then you shame me into driving out to Indy to go to that group. And I gotta tell you, we were the second or third smallest in that lab group. And I didn't really speak much, I just listened. These were companies that their grandfather started that had been in existence for 40 or 50 years, and I was able to learn so much on the operation side that really, it changed the trajectory of the entire company. That was 2018, I believe was the first one I went into.

So well worth it. The lab groups are great. TMC is great. It was good to see you in Boston a couple weeks ago. So, yeah, awesome group. And Rich took it from what, three or four members to over 300.

Yeah, we had gotten over 300 just before I left. So, yeah, it was a fun. It was a very, very fun period of time in my life and it's great to be back, you know, kind of formally interacting with the organization again, as you noted in Boston. So was. Was really, really, really rewarding and fun. So, yeah, great, great.

And then you are now the executive director of the Ohio mba.

Yeah, yeah, I left TMC to start my consultancy two and a half years ago and then in June, yeah, agreed to come on as the executive director of the Ohio Mortgage Bankers Association. So really, really excited about that. We're doing some great stuff with omba. You know, the exact. The former executive director had been in there a while and in a lot of ways the organization was stagnating. So, you know. Yeah, really looking forward to continuing to give it a new jolt of life and you know, just bringing new creative ways to the membership base that we can kind of add value on the state level and yeah, hopefully act as a little bit of a guide for maybe other states around the country. You know, ways to provide value at the state MBA level.

So, yeah, looking.

I mean, I, I could see myself driving out to Columbus or Cleveland for meetings from time to time. I'm was heavily involved, past president of the Southwest NBA.

Great group.

But yeah, we don't have the whole state that, you know, you're tying together four or five large cities to really bring a lot of, A lot of action to it. So, yeah, exciting stuff. And you know, the Great Lakes Regional Conference, you're talking about that. That looks exciting as well too.

I can't wait for that. Yeah. What Dave is referencing is, you know, I was on the board of the Ohio NBA for like six years from like 13 to 19. And you know, we had talked about, you know, all these state conference, state MBA conferences. There's some that are phenomenal. Texas, California, Florida does a good job, a couple others. But a lot of them are just, they're, they're kind of dwindling a little bit. It's, you know, in attendance and relevance.

And so what we're planning, just starting to plan is Starting in likely 2027, a group of like seven states that surround the Great Lakes that would collaborate together to throw a Great Lakes Midwest MBA think like, you know, downtown Chicago, mid June. National level speakers, national level content would also serve as the state, individual state NBA conferences for those individual states. The state meetings that they have to have with their boards and members but you know, have some joint content. So yeah, that's something that we're, we're working towards and I love that idea and I think it'll be a big hit. But, but we'll see.

Include PA in that place. We're.

We're great. I will. Yeah. Because there's no. Because there's no. Is there's no state MBA for PA is that. We were having that discussion, weren't we, Dave? There's regionals, but not a state.

Yeah, I mean, I should know, I should know that we pay dues to the state because we have a lobby aspect of it. But no, I don't think I Think the state organization is pretty much defunct. There is money in the account. There's a lot of action on the eastern pa, you know, greater Philadelphia area in New Jersey. But, yeah, to my knowledge, there's no formal state organization. I think we send a couple people on the board and maybe they have like a formal meeting, but. And there's money in the bank, but I think that's it.

Okay. All right, good to know. And I'll. I'll do some homework. And yes, I'm outraged to the PA people. And we. Yeah, the more the merrier. We have Kentucky's in, so they're not contingent to the Great Lakes, and we're talking to Iowa and Minnesota as well.

So, yeah, we'd love to bring PA in the mix on that.

You know, something we were mentioning before we got on the call was the fact that. And I think this is how you both started were those in person meetings and, you know, enter the scene. Covid. And everyone's virtual. And virtual has its added values. I mean, we can be in a lot of places at once here. The three of us are from, you know, different areas on together. But I really do think we're missing something by not being in person for a lot of these events.

So when you're. When you're talking about these bigger events, you're talking about in person, you know, having those interpersonal conversations. I mean, I think it goes beyond just the meeting, and people are so much more engaged, and you actually get to know the other people that are in these collaboratives and in these groups.

Yeah, you heard Dave talk about it. I moderated those lab groups that Dave was a part of, and it was incredibly valuable to all the people involved. So, I mean, you know, it's my background in industry, like how I got the job at the Mortgage Collaborative. I was just a crazy, like, networking guy. I was running mortgage lending for a bank outside of Cleveland, and we were involved with a couple networking organizations. And as I was like, you know, late 20s, early 30s, like, trying to figure it out, and I was just getting so much more value in having discussions with other people that did what I did across the country. So I just, you know, I leaned into it out of just personal benefit. You know, I mean, just wanting to be better at my job and making more money.

And then I just. I continued to lean more. The NBA asked me to start their community bank networking group. And then like a year after that, the group of folks that were getting TMC started to reach out to me, if at first just to get My thoughts on like, what lenders were looking for out of a co op and then it kind of turned into an unexpected job interview. But I would echo what Dave said earlier. I, you know, the power of networking with intent. You know, not showing up at a happy hour and having a couple of drinks and talking to a realtor, that doesn't hurt either. But really intentful networking can be incredibly powerful to organizations if, if embraced.

Yeah, especially in person. Like we had a bunch of labs, collab labs, virtual over the years. People are looking at their phones, people are checking emails. People just don't show up because it's easy to miss. But when you're in person, you can't miss it. Yeah, we lose something. Our executive team is spread out all over the country and we chat multiple times a week on teams. It's just not the same.

If we were all in a conference room chatting for an hour, you, you, you genuinely lose something. I read something maybe on Garrett McCalfy, their newsletter every Sunday. How everyone thinks you can build culture remotely over video and you can. Right? There's, there's. But they, they posed the question was if it's so impactful, would you raise your children remote via video? Of course the answer is no. Right. Uh, but yeah, I think that's a great analogy that how, how important in person is and then you get to know people, you have sidebars, grab a coffee, grab a drink, grab lunch. It's, it's completely different physically being one on one.

So true. So much different, so much more impactful. Yeah. For all the reasons you mentioned. And yeah, and it did, you know, post pandemic, there's not as much travel in the industry. I feel like it's starting to come back and I feel like some. There was somewhat a byproduct of just the crappy business climate these last few years. You know, easy byline on the budget to reduce, you know, or eliminate.

But, you know, as we move into this new era of mortgage lending where the big keep on getting bigger and many of them public, you know, companies like HMA that are, you know, nice size but still nimble, really entrepreneurial organizations, you know, I feel like there's huge opportunity for companies like that and you know, small, local, nimble, smart. And I do think we're also going to see a lot of, we're going to see a lot more lenders embrace networking, you know, just because the business climate, the landscape, the chess board has changed dramatically these last three years and you're competing with big public companies with gobs of cash that are implementing technology and humans at very, very fast rates. That's not even talking about the non public companies, the cross countries, the guaranteed rates, one owner, more money than God, just willing to just keep reinvesting in their company. So there's a lot to contend with for small to medium sized lenders as we move forward and I do expect in person networking to get a big boost up for all the reasons you mentioned, Dave.

Yeah, the landscape has really changed, you know, with Guild being taken private obviously with the moves that Rocket made with Redfin and Mr. Cooper, there's some smaller ones out there. It's. The landscape has changed and we need to be very good at what we do in, in, in our world to compete long term. Things are going to look a lot different, you know, I think next year than with Compass buying anywhere real estate too and all the joint ventures that they have. Things is, things are about to get interesting.

It's crazy. It is. I mean think about these mergers, I mean think about all the big public companies, you know, what rocket's done, how UWM's continued to grow in their lane. The merge of the two biggest real estate companies in America. You know, you've got other IMBs, you know, that are buying, you know, platforms, lower purchasing, Matovo. You know, there's all kinds of stuff going on right now that's consolidating the industry and you know, in some ways it makes it tougher for the small to medium size. But in a lot of ways I just feel like, you know, people that companies that brand really well, that are nimble, good leadership, good communication, know how to show up digitally, that there's going to be even more opportunity because these big public companies, it's all kind of wine and roses right now. It's all new, every string the drum up business.

It's a bad business climate. You know, once we get to a more regular business climate, you know, we got to remember the things that people hate about working for public companies like investor demands, shifting directions. Right. You know, you may like this part of the business but the investors don't. Right. So I think it's going to create a lot of opportunity as well.

Well, you know Rich, you had a post, I think you posted it twice now, that if you were starting the mortgage company today, you would be 100% in on content in branding. Can you touch on that real quick? And by the way, I do for every post, rich posts on LinkedIn like he's one of my thought leaders and a little pro tip if you go into someone's LinkedIn profile and I learned this from Rich, and you click on that little bell and you could see every post that they make. And I've done that for about a dozen different people so I don't miss. You know, I read all the, the blogs and the, the mortgage rags online, but that's one I get a ton of information and ideas on LinkedIn Thanks. Thanks to Rich.

The bell. It's one of the best hidden secrets. Yeah, anybody that you just want to stay, you know, either you like their content, maybe it's you know, a big referral partner you're chasing after or some sort of strategic partner that's of potential value to you, you know, what better way to try to get closer to them than reading every post they make? Understanding what's important to them. Liking commenting. So yeah, great little tip Dave just shared there. Um, yeah, you know, as far as content and yeah I would, I mean I would be building a content machine just because I mean it's, you know, I'm working with companies on this now so it's like the power of these social platforms and I'm a big believer in founder led content. Right. So Dave, the founder of the company, using his feed to talk about not only the great things happening at the company, but a little bit about him personally to build some personal brand, you know, talking about other things going on in the industry using that feed and then you know, if you can, if you can replicate that amongst other leaders in your company, business development leaders, marketing professionals, it just, it becomes powerful.

I'm in, I'm like, you know, elbow deep now into this with like five or six companies where you know, it starts with the founder. We expanded to a group of, depending on the size of the company, another four to 10 people. And now we're tracking impressions, we're tracking profile views, we're tracking likes, we're tracking, tracking post comments, we're putting in place systems to follow up at the appropriate time to send somebody a Short non salesy DM 2 days after they view your profile. 10 times more likely to respond to a DM if they've viewed your profile. So implementing things like that, it's, listen, it's where everybody's attention is, is these social platforms, the days of, you know, donuts and bagels in the realtor offices are dwindling, slash over and everybody lives on their damn phones. And you have to be there, you have to be there to show up. You know, if not to develop new business at a minimum to Moat your own business because your competitors are deploying and implementing, you know, all these strategies. And, you know, it's brand is powerful.

I mean, I, my. I don't like to brag, but my personal situation, I like to bring it up not to brag, but to, you know, to, to, to talk about what it can be. I mean, I had a job I loved where I was making great money, and I walked away to go to zero because I had gotten the 25,000 LinkedIn followers. I was starting to do some side consulting, and I was able to do my own thing. You know, it wasn't easy. It took me a while to get it going, but, you know, I was able to do it. And building brand company and personal. A superpower business.

Superpower, honestly. 20, 25 and beyond. So.

And it's free to do and it doesn't take. It doesn't take a ton of effort. Right. And this is a plug for Rich. You know, Rich does consulting on LinkedIn, as he mentioned, and he did one for all of our los. But yeah, if you want to learn more about that, get with Rich. We'll put his information in the comments. But it was powerful.

Very powerful. Yeah, it was powerful. Something we should probably.

You know what I loved about it? It was we've all been to a ton of different conferences and we've had speakers, but you gave us tangible advice and you walked through it right there with us rather than just talking at people. I mean, it was like a working, working workshop where people are right there doing it. And just like that little bell idea that Dave had, I mean, that Dave shared that you gave. That was really powerful stuff. And I love that you, you are actually living this. I mean, it's one thing to say and give all these people this great advice, but you actually have 30,000 LinkedIn followers. You're doing this. So I love that I can just follow what you're doing and share what you're doing.

And it's like, do as I say or do as I do. And you're really leading by example in that, that way. 30,000 LinkedIn followers. That's very impressive. I don't know many people have gotten to that level.

It's, it's powerful to be able to, to, to work with people, to, to be able to say to them, this works. 100 for sure, right? If you can just stay consistent with it. Because I'm in it, you know, I'm in it with them, and I've done it for different companies before. I'm doing it now. With the Ohio Mortgage Bankers association using content and, and you know, brand awareness for what we're doing there to drive new membership and you know, and yeah, and again, I'm in it with them. So it's like most sales speakers that I've heard over my career running residential lending divisions had speak to people. It's like the sage on the stage, you know, listen to me how smart I am. Do these things and you'll be rich and famous.

And my approach is very different. I'm like, it's not easy, it's going to take a while. But it's, it's, it's much less hard than other business. Almost everything else you do in business development, just having a consistent strategic approach to LinkedIn, like how hard is it really is spending 45 minutes a day on LinkedIn strategically, like who? You know, you shouldn't bristle at that. It's, to me it's, it's much more effective time spent than the traditional ways that a lot of ellos are still spending their time trying to develop business. So it's just getting people to see that, embrace it and then do it and then stick with it. It's like anybody that can get past like that three month mark, they all stick with it because they're starting to see the impact and they're starting to see it's, it's worth the ROI of their time.

Just like, just like exercise. Sorry to cut you off.

Exercise. No, you're right, it's just like exercise. Nobody wants to do it. But then you look back and you thank yourself for, for just getting started. I always like to say the, the heaviest weight at the gym is the front door. You know, just like anything, the heaviest thing is just getting started. That consistency, man, it shows up everywhere, doesn't it? I think I hear a lot of times, especially from our loan officers, really from any loan officer, Dave, they hear LinkedIn and they're like, it's just recruiters and a bunch of people trying to get my attention. And, and I, I would venture to say.

You would probably say differently, Rich.

Yeah, I hear it all. Oh, Realtors aren't on LinkedIn, right? And I was like, yeah, the one deal every three months, realtors aren't on LinkedIn. If you're a realtor and you're smart and you're growing your business, you're on LinkedIn. Unless you're, you know, maybe they have huge following on Facebook or Insta or TikTok and it's not as important to them. But you know, with with social media schedulers. I mean, you know, a good huge percentage of the content that you would post. Other platforms can be, you know, can be duplicated for LinkedIn with little to no extra effort. So why not do it number one.

But more than realtors, financial planners, divorce attorneys, builders, contractors, you know, closing, I mean there's, you could go on and on and beyond that. Let's not Forget, you know, LinkedIn is primarily a B2B platform and as it relates to loan originators, that's, you know, lo to realtor is B2B but it's also B2C. Right. So if you're strategically growing your following and you know, just using the platform consistently and healthily, there also is troves of potential home buyers that are in your feed as an LL. So it's B2B and it's B2C and you know, LOS that are really, really good on LinkedIn and there's a few at HMA for sure. Like they're, they're, they're using it to cultivate new referral partnerships, but they're also getting new B2C business off of it. So.

It'S pretty powerful.

Yeah, it's, it's the, the itch is worth the scratch, you know, and it takes people a while to figure that out. You know, everybody's like, oh, I don't have time, I don't have time, I don't have time. Everybody, you have time. You know, unless you are, you know, an incredibly high producing lo that is working all different kinds of other funnels, especially these last three and a half years. There's time in your day and if you are adamant that there's not, I would argue, well, let's take a look at how you're spending your 40 to 50 hours a week working. And let's, let's eliminate two to three hours of the, the least important stuff, the report, replace it with this vital to your future professional health stuff. The biggest hang up for everybody on LinkedIn is content. 90% of the people I start working with on LinkedIn, it's the same back life story.

Yeah, I've been on LinkedIn, you know, the last 10, 15 years. I, you know, share a company page, post once a week, maybe I'll make a post here and there, send out some connection requests up from every once in a while, use it to keep tabs on, you know, the latest industry news. I mean like almost everybody's at that point. What prevents people from that to a few hours a week of a consistent strategic plan it's the fear of making content. Now I would argue like a year and a half ago, there's people I work with just being realistically like, they couldn't make good content a year and a half ago. But pre AI now, AI is a super power for ideating content. Get Chachi PT Pro. Pay 20 bucks a month.

Create a custom GPT. It takes like 3 to 4 minutes. If you don't know how, ask Chap GPT. How do I create a custom GPT and why is it better than regular GPT? And just use it for content. You know, start feeding in information about your profession, your business goals and objectives and let it know that the main focus of this GPT is to help ideate content that will be of value to others. That is the key to content on LinkedIn is not being completely selfless with it. Thinking only through the lens of.

How.

Can I create the most high quality content that is of value to others? Give, give, give, give. Most people go on LinkedIn and they just, all they do is ask for business and people are just zooming right past their posts and. But if you give, you give, you give a little more, give even more and then ask subtly and nicely once you've delivered value. That's how I've grown my consultancy, that and Nothing else. From 0 to 60 clients in two years. That strategy alone, without spending one penny.

And are you on any of the other platforms or you're focusing primarily on LinkedIn.

I am only on LinkedIn because for my business, you know, a consulting business that's largely focused on the mortgage industry, I'm after decision makers primarily, so. But what I, for all los that are listening to this, you should be on at a minimum LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. All three without thinking about it. Like, to me it's incomprehensible how a business development professional in 2025 that's in the financial services sector cannot be consistently and presently where everybody lives like, it makes no sense to me. I can't comprehend it. Unless you're like going to retire in two years. But the los that don't embrace digital presence, they will slowly get bled away, you know, one deal at a time by people that are just that are very good at it.

So I learned a new word today. Ideate. Is. Is that what it is?

It might not even be a real word. You might want to.

It is to me.

Is it? I sounds good. Yeah. So, but I mean, it's like, you know, hey, if you spend 5min feeding in information about HMA mortgage your role within HMA. Mortgage your centers of influence, people you're trying to influence. And they'd be like, give me 50 ideas of great LinkedIn posts that will provide value to that group and, you know, help grow my following and impressions. 20 of them may suck, but like, 30 of them are going to be awesome. There's a month worth of content right there.

You know what I'm doing when we get off this call, I'm going to, I'm going to plug in it and I, I do, I do pay for the 20 bucks a month. It's, it's, it's nothing. And if you. It's interesting, which we'll get in the air after this, I guess. But if I type in the chat GPT, tell me, you know, 10 paragraphs about me, my family, my business, it will spit it out because I just keep feeding that information. It is, you know, it never stops working. It's got the best memory and you can search the Internet. It's amazing.

And we're just, we're just scratching the surface right now.

It's. I have five different custom GPT set up. One for consulting business clients, one for coaching clients, one for my sports card company, one for the omba, and one for my podcast. I do with Rob Krisman. It. They're always working on things at any given point. You know, one of those five is working on something for me. And, you know, as somebody that just has built two small businesses these last two, two and a half years, like the impact of fully embracing AI a year and a half or so ago, I cannot tell you the impact.

I mean, I read a stat somewhere that it was from one of the big. I forget who it was from. It was some reputable source. 71% of a loan originator's job can be made more efficient and proficient by smart use of AI tools. Think about it. 71%. So if you're 0 and your competitors are leveraging it fully, 70% of what they're doing is being done quicker and more effectively than you. I mean, that's pretty sobering.

It's scary. Yeah, it's scary. I mean, with AI, with business in the mortgage world in general, everyone's talking about it constantly, but I find when I go to these conferences, I always think I'm way behind. But just by talking about it, we're actually ahead of the vast majority of our competitors. And we're going to have some AI functions integrated by the end of the year. And we have big plans for 2026 to bring some, some items in. But what are you seeing out in the landscape? I mean we're gonna, I'll give them a plug. Is trained.

They're actually out of Pittsburgh.

My former partner is a founder.

So we're signing the contract ironically today for training. So we'll have that integrated in our organization by the end of the year. And then we're looking at some automated underwriting and some other writings. But we're all in on AI just because I see the landscape we talked about, you know, the guilds, the, the jrs, the Rocket, the uwm. If we don't integrate this stuff, they're going to drive down the cost to produce a loan so low that we're not going to be able to compete. So we need to drive down our cost. I don't think it's like now we need to do it, but it's in the, it's in the Horizon. It's probably 26, 27 that we, we need to make massive steps to driving down our cost of producer loan because we're the fallacies with technology in the mortgage world over the past decade was all this technology was going to make our lives easier, which it has to a certain degree, but also drive down the cost of, to produce alone.

And the opposite has happened. Our cost of produce alone has skyrocketed. So it'd be interesting to hear about what you're seeing out in the marketplace. And I feel like it's a lot of talk and when you get under the hood of someone's business, there's not as much AI going on as, as I thought there was.

Man, you think you're behind the curve. I was just at a credit union conference and leading a session on AI. It was I. They looked at me like, you know, I had a third eyeball in the middle of my forehead. It, you know, but it's your point, it's moving quick. You made a lot of good points there. You know, I think since, you know, if we look at like the history of mortgage tech, push button, get mortgage, the famous Rocket, super bowl commercial, oh God, probably a dozen or so years ago now, really kind of set this all in motion. We saw the first wave was all the customer facing stuff, point of sale app stuff, the simple nexuses, the blends, all that stuff, because lenders were obsessed with customer experience.

And also on the back end that some of the true AI, some of the companies you mentioned, Dave, that you're integrating, it's just really now, just now, like in 2025, as we come To a close of the year starting to. There's some viable products out there with some really viable use cases. But to your point, again, you know, every piece of tech, all of us have been sold for the last decade and mortgage was, oh yeah, it's going to bring down your customer. No it hasn't. Now there are some products that are starting to come to the market like Trane Candor on the underwriting side. There's some on the servicing side as well that you know, are really, really effective. True AI having true impact. But all lenders are trying to figure it out right now, right? Because lenders have their, they're a little snake bitten, right? I mean you own a mortgage company, you own one.

It's like your, your experiences with technology, have they helped? In some ways, yes, but they've been all in all not good. You know, like in terms of like cost to produce and you know, contracts you're locked into for things that aren't viable anymore. So lenders are snake bitten. They haven't had a lot of money to spend on things. Just being honest. Two, three. The landscape is still evolving. So there's just this huge confusion factor.

All these companies that aren't true AI are still selling AI because it's the sexy term that gets people's attention. And while technology is truly evolving right now to where it's going to be meaningful to lenders and reduce costs, the lending community as a whole is just totally confused with it right now for good reason.

And there needs to be a lot of, I hate this word but change management that goes on like you know, we're looking at Candor and some other automated underwriting AI and it's something along the lines of if a file comes in not to get too in the weeds on it. You can't even have your underwriter decision certain things he or she can't even look at things like staring. Compare title sales agreements, homeowners insurance, things that give underwriters decision fatigue because they can't mess it up. But they got to look at it. It's basic AI. So our plan is have the AI take care of a lot of that stuff first and then like an underwriter, the true professional is only going to look at things that are deal breakers, variable income, self employed income, things like that. So they're not going to even get a chance to look at those other items and then re underwrite it like you because that's going to be their instinct is they got to double check the technology. Our plan is to not even Allow that to happen.

And there's, you know, hundreds of examples of stuff they don't need to look at.

It's smart. And that's one example of a great, like, very tangible use case for AI currently that is having impact with lenders. Right. That 80 to $110,000 underwriter that was just pouring through every file. Now, to your point, Dave, if, you know, AI can eliminate the things that, you know, that they were looking at physically before and just let them make decisions on tough deals or, you know, the, the, the files on the margins and just underwrite essentially a completed credit profile, a bunch of time savings when you. Yeah. Calculate that salary times the time they spent doing that versus the cost of the AIs, you know, role in doing it. So it's, yeah, we're starting to see it emerge.

You know, right now is really, it's all, I would argue, until really like these last few months, you know, getting ROI out of tech and mortgage has been a losing game, but now there's a path there for sure and there's products already out there, a couple of which you've mentioned that it's very clear path.

And I'm not suggesting with AI we're going to lay off a bunch of people. That's, that's not our plan. We want to grow and not have to hire as many people. And maybe the underwriter who is decisioning two and a half to three transactions a day is now up to eight because they're only looking at 10 or 15% of the file as opposed to all the mundane standard compare items, you know.

And you know, again, we got to remember too, like, it's been like the crappiest three and a half years for mortgage ever. Right. The wind is, the winds are starting to shift. And you know, I think there's just a lot of things happening fundamentally that's going to lead to a healthier housing market as we move forward. So I think that's, you know. Yeah. To your point, it's, I mean, I would not be surprised if, you know, 26 was 2 1/2x, honestly, 25. And you know, to your point, Dave, I mean, if you're smart about the technology that you're implementing, normally that would take waves of bodies.

I was just having this conversation with a bank client of mine yesterday. I'm like, what would you do if like, you know, rates dipped down to 599 and apps went up 3x? They'd be, they're like, we would have to go out and start hiring people like it was 2020 again. Like I would say 90 of mortgage lenders are still in that boat where if volume were to, if we were to hit 59930 or fixed and, and apps were to 2 and a half 3x after saying I'll never do it again, I'll Never hire and fire 20 to 22. That whole. They would have to do it again or outsource or, or something. So.

Well, Rich called it. I was at a conference in Austin, Texas, I think February of 2019. He called the refi boom. He goes, things are looking good. I can't remember the exact but he basically said things are looking good. We could see a refinance boom in the second half of the year and that started an amazing run from half of 19 until 1Q22 that we saw unprecedented volumes where we could basically refinance anyone we ever spoke to in our entire book. So that's never going to happen again. But I just want a little taste of that.

Yeah.

Yeah. The last three and a half years have been extraordinarily difficult and painful. Well, let's definitely plug his podcast with Rich or Rob. Excuse me.

Yeah, big picture. Watchthebigpicture.com is yeah. Where you go to get signed up and yeah, Rob Krisman and I every Thursday, you know, are very lucky to get to, to bring on somebody big name from the industry and have a good discussion with them. On tomorrow's show we have Dustin Owen coming on who's one of the top los coaching Los. The Loan officer podcast is I think the number one podcast in all of mortgage. So he always brings a lot of great. This same type of stuff we're talking about here is like how to be a very adept and you know, successful business professional in this new kind of digital era. So yeah, looking forward to, to having the conversation with him tomorrow in.

Rob's always a great interview and a great podcast host, I'm sure. Right?

It's. Yeah, it's always great. We don't, you know, we've been friends for so long and we have no problem just busting each other's balls about anything and we definitely don't take ourselves too seriously. So it and the show, which is great, we have a sponsored depth that's phenomenal, but they are phenomenal. Part of what makes them phenomenal is they don't care what we say, who we have on. So we have complete freedom, complete freedom to talk about only the most critical issues kind of facing the mortgage industry. And we have no companies to Protect or shield or that are off limits. So it, yeah, that's helped.

When I, when Rob and I first started the show, I was running the mortgage collaborative partnerships with Fannie Freddie mba. You can, you know, you can only.

Got to be careful.

Right, Right. So it's complete journalistic freedom is, is powerful. So great.

I love it. Well, thank you for joining us today. We talked about a lot of different issues, brought a lot of things into focus. Practical lessons inspired us. Dave's got his checklist of what he's going to be running and doing right after we jump here. I do too. And make sure you like and subscribe. Dave, do you have anything to add here before we jump?

No. You know, Rich, thanks so much. It was great chatting with you again. Thanks for being so instrumental in my career development and the development of HMA Mortgage. So we appreciate you and I'm sure I'll see you around at various conferences around the country, buddy.

I remember when we first met Dave, it was you and your two partners. Everybody was in Pittsburgh. You had maybe 30 or 40 people. And just watching the growth of HMA over the years has been awesome. And being lucky to be part of those lab groups with you and a bunch of other great IMBs. Yeah, it was just so cool and seeing you and a lot of that group kind of, you know, not only survive but thrive through, you know, this period that has killed off so many of your competitors. It's a testament to. Yeah.

The way you're leading the company. And it's been great to. Great to see and really thanks for having me on. This was fun.

Appreciate that.

Cool.

Thanks, guys. Have a good one. Bye. Everyone ready?