Anthony Perl:
The ecosystem that breaks foremen.
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Join passionate automotive trainer and
coach Andrew Uglow as he unpacks the
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CAMPS framework, customers, advisors,
managers, parts, and sales, and reveals
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how these so-called time vampires
quietly pull foremen away from the
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work they are actually responsible for.
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In this episode, you'll learn why most
foreman burnout is not a personal failure,
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how urgency drags good people off their
mark, and why the foreman and service
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manager must work as a pair to protect
time, boundaries, and performance.
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Discover how to spot the systematic
pressures that keep foremen firefighting,
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and understand why the skill that got
someone promoted is not always the skill
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that makes them effective in the role.
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Along the way, you'll hear why leadership,
not just management, is the missing link
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in fixing the people
gap inside the workshop.
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I'm your co-host Anthony Perl, and this
is the Frictionless Workshop podcast.
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Let's get cranking.
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Andrew, I think we've got to tackle
this whole issue of the ecosystem
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that breaks foremen, because we've
been skirting around the edges of--
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We've talked in previous episodes
about capability and about measuring.
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But at the end of the day, what
is this ecosystem that is really
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going to cause the big issues?
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Andrew Uglow: Yeah.
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So I call this CAMPS, C-A-M-P-S,
CAMPS, which stands for customers,
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advisors, managers, parts, and sales.
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And, and I, I call them time vampires,
and I'm, I mean this in the nicest way.
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I…
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nothing malicious.
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I'm sure the people that work in
the business are great people.
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I'm sure they mean well.
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They're trying to get their
job done, without question.
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And at the same time, these
are all the things that absorb,
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mystically absorb the foreman's
time In addition to all of the other
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responsibilities that the foreman has.
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And so I don't want to turn this
into a whinge about, you know, oh,
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the parts department, or the service
advisors, or this and all that.
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This is about a systemic issue that,
that exists, and if, if we can't call
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it out, well, how can we possibly
make steps towards addressing it?
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So yeah, CAMPS.
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It's the, it's the, it's the, the
pieces that are the time black hole.
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You know, I just spent 10 minutes,
20 minutes, an hour solving someone
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else's problem, and I didn't
get my responsibilities done.
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And so as a foreman, I keep
getting dragged off my mark.
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I keep getting pushed off my spots,
like being in the, in the ocean in,
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in, in waist-deep water, and you're
getting pushed around as the, as
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the currents and the tide move.
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And you, you're supposed to be
doing these things and you're not.
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You're doing those things.
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And for foreman, it's really frustrating.
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It's a big contributor to foreman
burnout, and it's also a really big
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contributor for some of the really
negative internal dialogue that I know
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that foremen run because they look at
their performance and they go, "Well, I
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should be able to do this, and I should
be able to do that, and I should have
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done this, and I should have done that."
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And they should all over themselves,
but at the end of the day, they were
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never taught how to manage this.
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They weren't given structures,
strategies, methodologies, tactics
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for dealing with th- the CAMPS, the
customers, advisors, managers, parts
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and sales teams that absorb their time.
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And it's not that those people are evil.
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They're not.
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They're trying to get their job done.
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But we're out of balance.
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And so I go back to this is a
systemic issue, not a personal issue.
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Anthony Perl: Begs the question then,
you know, with all of this stuff is
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how do you actually address this in
a meaningful way and pull it apart?
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Because I think one of the, one of
the issues that happens i- in all
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kinds of workplaces all the time,
and particularly on ones of the scale
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that we're talking about, is there's
this notion that everything is urgent.
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And so how do you fit
that into this landscape?
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Andrew Uglow: It's funny, I was listening
to a business psychologist, and they
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were talking about how the human
brain is wired to respond to urgency.
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You know, it comes out, out
of our, our primal part of the
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brain, fight, flight, freeze.
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You know, something, you know, when
there's a, a large animal about to
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eat me, well, that's somewhat urgent.
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You know?
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Sure, it's important that I, I, you
know, tuck my kids into bed, but
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that's not urgent at this point.
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So we respond neurologically to this.
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And so I go back to, if we're
going to resolve this issue,
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step one is a- awareness.
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If we don't have, firstly, even general
awareness, but better if we can have some
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really specific awareness around what's
actually happening, it's gonna be really
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challenging to put in place the parts
that need to be there to resolve this.
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And let me just put on my realism
hat and just go, I'm not sure
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that you ever will solve it.
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What I believe you can do
is you can mitigate it.
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You can stop it from stealing
as much of your time as a
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foreman that it currently does.
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And so this comes back if we go,
okay, so there's a problem here.
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Foreman's getting pushed
from pillar to post.
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They're getting pushed off their mark.
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They should be doing these things.
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They're now doing those things.
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We need them to do those things because
no one else can do those things, so w-
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we don't have another solution for that.
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So one of the challenges has
been that we just keep responding
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out of this urgency, and
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We don't pause and step back and
go, "Ah, well, hang on a minute.
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Let's take a little bit of a meta view.
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Let's do a helicopter view
and find out what's, what's,
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what's the driver behind that?
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What's the driver behind that?
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What's the driver behind that?"
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And I go, this is the foreman's job.
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Sure, the service manager owns this
'cause this foreman reports to the
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service manager, and there are parts
around good systems, good processes.
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There are parts where the service
manager has to have a discussion with
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the sales manager or the parts manager
or whoever it is and say, "Hey, look,
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want to help you, and can we do this?
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Because it's gonna work better for me
than it is what's happening now, and
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you'll get your stuff done as well."
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And so good systems and good
processes, and sometimes there
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needs to be some good discussions.
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Sometimes, and certainly this has been
my experience, some people that do work
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in those parts of the business maybe
shouldn't be working in those parts of the
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business Lovely people and all, but just
not suited to that role, or not skilled in
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that role, or not suited for the industry.
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And so you can-- I'm sure you
appreciate what I mean when I say that.
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Um, and have them work for
someone else rather than you.
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Those big pieces, th- those, those
big chunks, sure, they exist.
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Got to address that.
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But at the foreman level, the foreman
needs a way to, and we spoke about this
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before, how to maintain boundaries.
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So when someone comes to me
and says, "Andrew, I need
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you to da, da, da, da, da."
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Okay, no problems.
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But I've got all this other work.
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Which one of these am I gonna
drop in order to do that?
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Because I can't do both.
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And that's a tough conversation to
have because everything's urgent.
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You know, do, do you want
me to stop work on Mrs.
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McGillicuddy's car so I can work on Mr.
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Smythe's car?
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Because I can't do both.
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But the challenge is that foremen come out
of this world where when the pressure's
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on, they've got this really good work
ethic, generally speaking, maybe not
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all of them, but a lot of them, and
the pressure's on, fine, I go harder.
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You know?
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Just, you know, try me.
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Let, show, let me show you what I can do.
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And, and, and, and they do.
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They're very resourceful, very effective,
very-- This is why they're foreman, right?
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They're foreman because
they're good at what they do.
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But that doesn't work
in the role of foreman.
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The skill that got you to foreman
isn't the skill that makes
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you successful as a foreman.
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And, and no one seems to have
explained that to foremen or service
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managers even, for that matter.
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Anthony Perl: Speaking of service
managers then, where do they
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fit into the equation of this?
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Andrew Uglow: Yeah.
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So having, I'm gonna use the
word privilege to work for a
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high-capability foreman and an
exceptional service manager.
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They, they manage this as a pair.
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This is a two-person challenge, right?
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So one of the things that I saw them
do was they put in place processes
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for certain types of things.
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So if there was a parts issue that
needed the foreman's attention,
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well, okay, let's-- that comes
to the service manager first.
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The service manager then does the
triage and goes, "Yeah, we'll get to
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that tomorrow," or, "We'll address it
now," or, "I'll have a technician come
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and do that for you," or, "One of my
service team will, will address it."
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So the, the service manager becomes
the filter for most of these things.
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So when sales go, "Oh, we've got a
car that's supposed to go out and,
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and pre-delivery didn't do this,"
or, "They didn't do that," or,
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"The battery's gone flat and I need
it done now and the customer's on
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the way and we're all gonna die."
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Sure, okay.
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We can address the urgent that are the
urgent, but don't just stop at that.
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Like go and put in place a
process so that doesn't happen.
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And usually the reason that the foreman's
the fixer is because there is a cascade
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of things that have gone wrong, and
they just end up being the bunny.
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And if they don't have the skill of
maintaining boundaries and having,
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I'll call them effective conversations,
they might be a bit challenging, but
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effective conversations and going, "Well,
hey, here's the reality of my world.
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I still have these responsibilities
even though this has occurred for you.
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How are we gonna make this work?"
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Uh, because there's usually a way.
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And look, sometimes it does mean
that the foreman doubles down or
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stays late or there's overtime or
there's, there's these other things.
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But just having everything get dropped
on the foreman's desk is profoundly
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ineffective, and I'm gonna argue harmful.
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Anthony Perl: The Frictionless
Workshop podcast is brought
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to you by Solutions Culture.
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For details on how to get in touch with
Andrew, consult the show notes below.
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And don't forget to subscribe
so you don't miss an episode.
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Now, back to the podcast.
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What's interesting too here is, is that
it kind of points out to this issue
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that we've talked about in previous
episodes, where just because you're
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the best at the job doesn't mean
that you should be the person that
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is next batter up to be the foreman.
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Because the negative of that as well
is, is you can be taking your best
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technician off the floor, and in this
kind of situation can be proving that
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they've got the ability to fix the
problems, so just maybe if they were
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there fixing the problems all the time
and not being the foreman, we wouldn't
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have the problems in the first place.
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Andrew Uglow: Yeah.
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So do I have permission just
to be out and out honest here?
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And I'm not gonna be rude, but I
just, I wanna call a spade a spade,
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because if we don't get awareness,
like how can you fix anything?
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So is that all right?
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Anthony Perl: Your show.
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You've gotta, you've gotta
have the honest- Yeah.
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We, we've gotta be honest
with you, don't we?
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But it's a-- But you're right.
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Uh, you're 100% right, and I think
it, people should be nodding their
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heads when they're listening here.
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Andrew Uglow: So if you wanna track
this back to cause and effect, and,
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and there's layers and levels of
cause and effect, this is a systemic
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failure, and this is, this is a
systemic failure at a leadership level.
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So this, this starts with
the dealer principal.
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And dealer principals, if
you're listening, please, I'm
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not throwing you under the bus.
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I recognize the difficulty and
complexity that you deal with.
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Uh, and at the same time, given
the reports, and we're gonna talk
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about this in another episode.
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Given all the reports and the, the
pressure and tension on margin and all
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these sorts of things, this is the perfect
time to go and solve the leadership issue.
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And the leadership issue starts with you.
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Uh, but it cascades down.
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And
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there is a vacuum of leadership.
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We're, we're pretty good at management,
generally speaking, in automotive,
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but there is a vacuum of leadership,
and the two are not the same.
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Leadership looks after the person as
much as they look after the numbers,
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and the consequence of looking after the
person is you look after the numbers.
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You just do, because
people produce numbers.
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The numbers don't just
magically occur by themselves.
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Sure, you need systems, technology,
all those pieces, gotta have.
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Sure.
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But it's the person who's
delivering the outcomes.
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And so start with the person.
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Don't start with the system
and throw the person at it.
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Start with the person.
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It matters.
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And when we talk about starting
with the person, everybody needs
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reward, recognition, and resource.
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If they don't have the resources,
how can they possibly perform?
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And the difference between retention
and departure are those three things:
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recognition, reward, resource.
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It's not hard.
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Other indus- industries can manage it.
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In fact, other indus- industries do
brilliantly because they don't get
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stuck in this obsessive compulsive
monthly urgent cycle of hit my numbers
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If I manage my people well, if I lead
my people well, if I install leaders, if
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leadership's not my strength, no problems.
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Find someone who has that and install
them in the business, and then let
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them continue to install leaders.
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Because if my foreman has a great
manager, then I'll have a great foreman.
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And if I've got a great foreman, I'll
have a great technical team because the
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foreman produces a great technical team.
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It doesn't happen overnight,
but it happens because
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that's what great foremen do.
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And if I've got a great technical
team, how can I not hit the numbers?
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How can I not maintain and retain
my people, maintain my skill
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and retain my peop- like this,
this is cascade up and down.
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We know this.
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This is not new
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80/20.
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I know 20% of the industry are
doing it really, really well, and
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this shows in Deloitte's figures.
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If you're across the lat- latest industry
Deloitte report, you'll see it there
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And the ones that aren't, arguably
it's 70/30, but let's call it
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80/20 'cause we love Pareto.
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The ones that aren't are
the ones that struggle.
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They're the ones that are,
are really feeling the pain.
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And De- Deloitte came out and
said this, and, and we'll talk
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about that in the next episode.
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Um, but Deloitte came out and
said, "This is a people problem.
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As much as it is a numbers and a
financial problem, it's a people problem."
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So yeah, get it done.
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Anthony Perl: It's interesting to me
when you look at some of the things that
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you've been saying there, particularly in
regards to the best people, because it's
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the best people for the team, isn't it?
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I mean, I think sometimes it's not always
the top people in every single position
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that are going to make you work well.
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I mean, you'd look at
that in a football team.
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Often the football teams that get amazing
results are the ones that work as a team.
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There might only be one or two
out-and-out superstars, but it's
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the team mentality that goes well.
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Whereas sometimes, and you look at
international teams, and you put the
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best of everybody in the best positions,
there's too many people fighting for
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control, and it just doesn't work.
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Andrew Uglow: Yeah.
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Jim Collins, I forget the name of
his book, he talks about getting
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the right people on the bus.
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So the right people on the bus in
the right seats, and it matters.
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And so maybe your service
manager might be a great manager.
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You need leadership across
your service and parts.
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You don't need more management,
you need more leadership, because
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leadership plays from a human element
as much as they play from the business.
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They don't ignore the business.
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It's not one or the other.
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It's parallel, and the gap is the
people gap, and that's what's hurting.
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That's what's showing up
in the financial figures.
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Anthony Perl: So just to wrap
up this episode, give us a
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tip for what they can do.
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What is the one lever that they should
be pulling in this particular scenario?
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Andrew Uglow: So for foreman, my, my
response would be to, to, to maintain
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your boundaries and to do it respectfully
because the person that's asking me to do
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this, they're trying to get stuff done.
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They've been put in a tight spot too.
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So do it with empathy, right?
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Don't do it-- Don't throw
them under the bus, okay?
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'Cause you got, gotta work together.
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And, and where you can,
bit of give, bit of take.
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Um, but that question that I mentioned
earlier, "Okay, if I do this for
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you, what can you do for me?"
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Or, "How can you help
me get my things done?"
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'Cause there might be something.
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Now, obviously, if it's diagnosed a,
a deep, complex, complan- compound
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technical issue, perhaps asking the
parts guy to do that is a bad idea.
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But there might be something
else that the parts guy could do
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that could speed up another part
of the system or the business.
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"Hey, look, could you da, da,
da, da, da, da, da for me?"
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Because that now takes the time
that I was going to spend here away.
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That solves that problem for me.
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So start to think a
bit more strategically.
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But also ask that question too of, of
particularly when it comes down from
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the top- "Hey, you know, Andrew, I need
you to go and do this, this, this."
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No problemo.
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Which one of these do you want
to have held up while I do that?
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Because that gets the thinking out
of the urgent panic, we're all gonna
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die, into a more strategic stream.
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And when you start to be more strategic,
you can actually avoid the potholes
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before they, before you hit them.
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Anthony Perl: Well, that's all
we have time for in this episode.
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But if you realize today that your
foreman is being dragged off their mark by
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customers, advisors, managers, parts, and
sales, it is time to stop treating that as
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a personality problem, and as Andrew says,
start treating it as a system problem.
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The next step is to look at where
urgency is stealing time, where
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boundaries are missing, and where
the service manager needs to become
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the filter rather than letting every
problem land on the foreman's desk.
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A workbook has been created to
accompany this episode of the podcast.
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It's got questions for you to
answer, key quotes from the
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episode, and action steps to take.
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You can download your copy from
the link in the show notes.
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Lots of information in there as well
on how to get in touch with Andrew
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and his team at Solutions Culture.
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Make sure you share this with
your service manager as well.
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But whatever you do, don't miss our
next episode because Andrew will
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be unpacking how to install foreman
effectiveness without tanking the month.
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He gets into why sending a foreman
off to a two-day training course
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can actually compound the problem,
and why coaching may be the missing
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bridge between knowing there is a
capability gap and actually closing it.
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If you want to build foremen who can
perform without blowing up productivity,
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you can't afford to miss the episode.
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If you found value in today's episode,
wherever you're tuning in, please
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like, share, comment, and subscribe
so you never miss an episode.
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Until next time, keep your workshop
running smooth and frictionless
