In this episode we tackle the persistent complaint "there are no good people anymore" and discover whether it's actually true. Andrew Uglow reveals the dual crisis facing automotive workshops: both a people shortage (quantity) and a skills shortage (quality), compounded by exponential technological change that no other trade has experienced. The discussion explores why applying financial management methodologies to human management doesn't work and why modern workers often lack foundational values and behaviors that must be actively "installed."

Andrew introduces a critical missing piece in workshop success: foremen need both high technical ability AND high people ability, yet the industry only trains for one. He unveils the Professional Foreman Method, a comprehensive training program launching October 2024 that teaches foremen how to lead people, install culture, have challenging conversations, and facilitate rather than push. The episode emphasizes that workshop success requires shared responsibility where technical excellence alone isn't enough without emotional intelligence and proper people management.

Andrew has a variety of free downloads and tools you can grab.

Discover if your workshop is Retention Worthy© here or visit his website, https://www.solutionsculture.com where the focus is on bringing reliable profitability to automotive workshop owners and workshop management through the Retention, Engagement and Development of their Technical Professionals.

This podcast was produced by 'Podcasts Done for You' https://commtogether.com.au .

Shared responsibility.

2

Why workshop success depends

on everyone playing their part.

3

Join passionate automotive trainer and

coach Andrew Ulo as he examines the common

4

technician complaint, the breakdown of

shared responsibility in modern workshops.

5

In this episode, you'll learn why

workshop success requires both technical

6

excellence and emotional intelligence.

7

Discover how to create

accountability without blame.

8

And understand why technicians and

management must share ownership

9

of outcomes along the way, you'll

hear stories about the automotive

10

industry's complexity and how it

demands a new approach to teamwork and

11

why the old us versus them mentality

is killing workshop profitability.

12

I'm your co-host Anthony Pearl, and this

is the Frictionless Workshop podcast.

13

Let's get cranking.

14

Andrew Uglow: Andrew.

15

Here's my

16

favorite

17

Anthony Perl: quote.

18

That you hear it in all jobs, and maybe

it's because we're getting a little bit

19

older, but there's no good people anymore.

20

But that specifically in an area that

is quite technical and with the scale of

21

development that happens with cars and

managing everything to do with them these

22

days, there's no good people anymore.

23

That's something that comes

up all the time, isn't it?

24

Andrew Uglow: It's funny

you should say that.

25

And at risk of, of getting on a soapbox,

and perhaps this is why I do a podcast

26

to, to get on a soapbox, but when you've

been doing something, anything for a long

27

time, you start to notice patterns, right?

28

You start to notice things recur.

29

There's cycles to how things operate.

30

I just looking back, when I first started

in the industry forever ago, it was really

31

hard to find good people and then it

became, it's really hard to find people.

32

And that then, and that's what

we were hearing from management.

33

That's what we're hearing

from workshop owners.

34

That's what we're hearing

from industry bodies.

35

Oh, there's, it's really hard

to find good people, or it's

36

really hard to find people.

37

Now I'm hearing this

from other technicians.

38

I, I like the people that I work with

are peanuts really not very good.

39

Oh, I can't use the exact words

because language warnings on podcast.

40

But they have a lot of

opportunity to improve.

41

I, I question whether they

should be in the industry at all,

42

let alone are they employable?

43

It feels like a Monty Python scheme.

44

Anthony Perl: It's not

what it was in my day.

45

Andrew Uglow: Exactly.

46

Um, but this is the thing, like if it

was one person, I'd just go, okay, well,

47

you're just really unlucky to have got

a bad dude or do debt in your workplace.

48

But when I start to hear again and

again and again from foreman, from

49

technicians, we've got insert person.

50

They're useless.

51

They're absolutely useless.

52

I end up fixing all of their problems.

53

I end up spending all this extra

time, and I go back to the other

54

things that we spoke about.

55

I'm not getting paid any

more to fix their problems.

56

I'm not getting any recognition

because of all the things that I do.

57

So you can sort of see that these are

recurring loops and cycles within cycles.

58

So there's this lament, you know,

where are all the good people going?

59

Whoa.

60

And the, the flip side is these

young people these days, you

61

know, that's what they said

about me when I joined the trade.

62

Young people these days,

look, they have no discipline.

63

And you go, can track, like,

honestly, go back and track

64

the things that tick you off.

65

As a service manager, what are they?

66

Okay, so we've got mistakes.

67

Technically we've got lack of attention,

but we also got, they didn't turn

68

up, they didn't ring me like, like

all of these basic human skills.

69

They just disappeared at lunchtime

because they were stressed, because mental

70

health, because in the war, in Ukraine,

because global warming, because who

71

knows, we have rules in how we operate.

72

We have, and these people don't

seem to fit within these rules.

73

They don't seem to hold the same values.

74

They don't seem to care

about their reputation.

75

They don't seem to perceive the world

the way that we perceive the world.

76

And so this whole idea that plays

out for that at a management level.

77

But when we look at this

through technician lenses.

78

This guy's getting away with everything.

79

He does this, he doesn't do that.

80

He should have done this, da da da da.

81

I'm doing all the right things

and we're getting paid the same.

82

Hang on a minute, hang on a bit.

83

And, and so you can appreciate, you

know, what's, what's that saying?

84

Bad company corrupts good habits.

85

You know that if I have some optimal or

underperformers in my business that there

86

is a a time period at which we, we, we

want to upskill them or get rid of them.

87

Be because they will do more harm.

88

Than not having a warm body there.

89

And sometimes, and I know businesses that

do this, I go, I just need a warm body.

90

Yep.

91

They create all of this hell.

92

But without that, I just simply

can't cope with the amount of work.

93

'cause I don't have enough people.

94

And the hope is that we can

find or upskill them enough,

95

we can progress them enough.

96

We can take them from being profoundly

suboptimal to being semi suboptimal.

97

And that's kind of the the thing.

98

And yet possibly.

99

When I start hearing this from

technicians, I don't know about you,

100

but that raises some red flags for me.

101

The people that are working with these

people, and even if they've been in trunk,

102

like I've had a third year apprentice come

to me and go, all of the other apprentices

103

in my workshop are just horrendous.

104

I, I dunno why they put them on.

105

Okay.

106

That I don't know about you, but

it's, that throws up a whole variety

107

of questions and red flags for me.

108

And so going back to the testing, the idea

is there in fact no good people anymore.

109

You know, the frustration of

working with not good people,

110

you know, where have all the good

people got young people these days?

111

All of those versions of that claim.

112

Is it true?

113

And I'm gonna go, yeah,

it's true without question.

114

Don't just have a skill shortage in

terms of the number of people available.

115

The people that we have

also don't have the skills.

116

So we have, if you like, we have

a people shortage and we have a

117

skills that people don't have.

118

Shortage or issue.

119

And so it's a two part thing.

120

And so is there a drop in quality

of talent in the workshops?

121

I'm gonna go, yeah.

122

Yeah, there is.

123

And you, you take that idea and then

you layer over the non incremental,

124

the massive exponential change in

technology that's come through cars.

125

And even if you go back 10 years,

you know what's changed for plumbers?

126

What's changed for carpenters?

127

What's changed for.

128

Air conditioning techs, what's changed?

129

Like sure there's changes, but nothing

like the automotive industry has seen.

130

Like nothing.

131

Nothing at all.

132

And so not only do we now have

people that perhaps don't have

133

the people skills, don't have the

values, don't have the comprehension.

134

If they've come from another part of

the world, perhaps they don't share the

135

same ideals and the same concepts of

what's acceptable and what's not for us.

136

And we see that a lot too,

that it's not just a people

137

clash, it's a cultural clash.

138

That's a whole nother

kettle of fish, right?

139

There's, there's a whole

nother level of skill.

140

If I'm a manager slash leader,

how do I lead through that?

141

We have that, but we also

have the change in technology.

142

And I'm again, automotive tragic.

143

Well, automotive life, I had the benefit

of seeing this incremental change.

144

We went from cars being largely mechanical

systems to, with a few electrical

145

circuits, you know, lights and charging

systems, and spark ignition and stuff.

146

To cars being an entirely networked

vehicle, highly networked vehicle

147

with a few mechanical components.

148

Yeah, we still got brakes.

149

Yeah,

150

Anthony Perl: we have an

electric motor now that does the,

151

hopefully we still got brakes.

152

Andrew Uglow: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

153

That's a trivial detail.

154

We have mechanical doors

that still open and close.

155

You know, they aren't curtains

or force fields or something

156

that keep us in the car.

157

We haven't gone that far yet, but like

there's, there's a few mechanical things

158

in the car, but it's now an electronic

device with a few mechanical bits.

159

And so I've seen that

change gradually over time.

160

But for people who step into the industry

today, like that's like, like drinking

161

from a fire hose, you know, wrapping

your lips around the end of that nozzle

162

and turning that, turning that hose

on high, it's a lot of information

163

to get down at a really short space

of time, and so that just compounds

164

what the individual is experiencing.

165

Trying to find their feet in an industry

and underperforming while they do it.

166

Anthony Perl: The Frictionless

Workshop Podcast is brought

167

to you by Solutions Culture.

168

For details on how to get in touch

with Andrew, consult the show notes

169

below, and don't forget to subscribe

so you don't miss an episode.

170

Now back to the podcast.

171

They're being trained on a

completely new way of doing

172

things and a new type of engine.

173

So their experience is

always going to be different.

174

So they're not gonna make

'em like they used to because

175

they can't and they shouldn't.

176

Andrew Uglow: Right.

177

And so if we dive into this and we start

to look at things a little bit deeper

178

than the surface level, and usually

this is expressed in frustration.

179

I've gotta fix up all this person's screw

ups, I've gotta, I'm constantly holding

180

their hand and wiping up after them.

181

Um, there's two big

chunks that are at play.

182

The first chunk is the environment

that they're working in.

183

People respond to the

environment they're working in.

184

And if I've got a suboptimal environment,

if I'm not, if I'm applying financial

185

management methodologies to humans,

I'm never gonna get a good result.

186

I just can, it's not possible.

187

So I need to have leadership.

188

I need to have a, an environment that

that is suitable for humans, suitable for

189

people that considers those people things.

190

Sure I have to make a profit.

191

Don't get me wrong, they're

parallel, but I just, I find that

192

the environment that often these people

find themselves in is not useful.

193

It doesn't serve, it doesn't help

the business, doesn't customers, and

194

certainly doesn't help the individual.

195

The second element is the reality is

that people today aren't the same.

196

They just aren't.

197

Different culture, different world.

198

Like we, we talk about people being tech

dependent, as in technology dependent.

199

Like I remember a long time ago

on a galaxy far away, when there

200

was no internet, we never had it.

201

We, you were left to your own devices

to be resourceful to figure it out.

202

Now, I just asked Chad, Hey

Chad, how do I fix this car?

203

Oh, well Andrew, you need

to da da da da da da.

204

And it may or may not be correct.

205

Like's been known to hallucinate

once or twice before.

206

And if I give it bad information,

I get a bad response back.

207

And so now it's chat's fault, not mine.

208

But the reality is that people don't

have the same foundations, that

209

the, the behaviors that we see are

symptoms of things that aren't there.

210

And so the reality is, if I

want this person to perform, I'm

211

gonna have to do the install.

212

It's like complaining that my car

didn't come with leather seats.

213

Well, okay, so it doesn't

come with leather seats.

214

If you want leather seats, you're

gonna have to put them in yourself.

215

You want the people to hold these values,

you're gonna have to install them.

216

That's the reality.

217

It sucks to be you.

218

Sure, but that's the reality.

219

If you want this, you're

gonna have to do the work.

220

And so this becomes a problem because one,

we don't have in the industry, we don't

221

have good systems and processes for doing

the install, or we put them through an

222

apprenticeship and that does some work.

223

That's good, that's useful,

but it's incomplete.

224

It's insufficient.

225

We certainly don't have any mechanism.

226

For doing the install for these values

and skills and behaviors and stuff.

227

We have compliance, but that's like

using a hammer to fix everything.

228

You know?

229

That's not gonna work well.

230

We don't have any training for people

in the business for how to do this.

231

We don't have any industry wide things

that develop this, that look at people and

232

go, look, this is how we need to operate.

233

If you wanna work in this

environment, you need these skills.

234

So let's go and develop those

skills and the people skills,

235

not the technical skills.

236

Sure, we do technical skills

really well, but we just don't

237

do the other side really well.

238

So,

239

you know, back to this complaint,

we can either keep banging our head

240

against the wall and having a Sooky

lala moment over it and complaining, oh,

241

you, I'm gonna, or we can suck it up.

242

We can go, okay, so they don't have this,

how am I gonna get the, get that to them?

243

And we get the pushback.

244

Oh, well they don't want to,

they don't this, they don't.

245

Yeah.

246

Okay.

247

That's all very external.

248

What are you gonna do about it?

249

You know, who's got two thumbs

and holds of responsibility here?

250

Well, that's leadership,

that's management.

251

So if you are the service

manager, you are the foreman.

252

This is on you.

253

And if we go back historically

and look at how Foreman did, sure.

254

They were the technical gurus.

255

They were the knowledge holders.

256

They were the problem solvers.

257

They were the ones that did stuff,

but they also led the culture.

258

And we don't train them

how to do that anymore.

259

That's gone.

260

Foreman is Andrew, how much longer Andrew?

261

Customers waiting.

262

Andrew, why isn't that job done?

263

We have this whole financial framework

over managing people, and it just sucks.

264

Just it's awful.

265

It's inappropriate.

266

It's like using a hammer to fix

everything and sure, there's

267

things that need a hammer.

268

There's things that need a hammer and a.

269

There's also a need finesse.

270

Things that don't need a hammer.

271

Anthony Perl: How you sell

it in is everything, right?

272

And the funny thing is, they know how

to do that when it comes to the car.

273

It's how they do it with the individual.

274

Because, you know, we were talking

before, um, you know, come in and you

275

go, okay, say to me you need new breaks.

276

Now if they say you need new breaks,

but you need it in the next six months.

277

He's very different to the urgency

of saying, look, your breaks

278

are down to the final bits.

279

You need to get your breaks

done in the next week.

280

Otherwise you risk having

a serious accident.

281

Andrew Uglow: Yeah.

282

Anthony Perl: And selling it to me that

way goes, okay, let's do the breaks now.

283

Let's get onto it.

284

I can't put this off.

285

And it's the same way that you have to

deal with technicians in wanting them to

286

develop and do more things along the way.

287

It's how you sell it into them.

288

When you get that complaint saying

that you're just banging your head

289

against a brick wall, that they're

not really that interested how you

290

sell it might be the key to, uh,

what the response is from them.

291

Andrew Uglow: Sure.

292

Uh, I'm gonna offer, what we have

is, if you imagine two axes, right?

293

The first axe is technical.

294

Technical skill.

295

Technical ability.

296

I like the word ability better.

297

'cause ability is skill

times knowledge, right?

298

It's what I can actually produce.

299

So we have this machine that over

time produces technical ability.

300

Okay?

301

So if we look at the scale of things

and where we expect our people to be, we

302

expect them to be high technical ability.

303

And so that's efficiency, that's

professionalism, that's fixed visits,

304

all those metrics that we track.

305

Conversely, for leadership, we don't

have really, we have management

306

as the other horizontal, and

it's kind of one or the other.

307

We have high management skill

or high technical ability.

308

And if we zoom in and go back to the idea

of, well, who's responsible for this?

309

Sure.

310

It's the management.

311

Without question, management of

the business, management of the

312

workshop, without question, the

buck stops with them and well, what

313

have they put in place to do this?

314

Because the service manager's got a

thousand different things to manage.

315

And putting out fires and doing all the

stuff that they do well, what system have

316

we got in place to, to look after this?

317

And there's some stuff and there's

some leadership that, that we see

318

coming through when I go, you know,

80, 20, 20% of businesses do this.

319

Well, 80%.

320

Not yet.

321

I go back into the piece

that's missing in all this.

322

The piece that's been overlooked in

all this is the foreman who has the

323

face time with the technicians, the

foreman who has the influence with the

324

technicians, the foreman who has the

ability to do the install of the values

325

and the behaviors and the methods, and

the way we roll the cultural things.

326

Well, that's the foreman's job.

327

Sure, they have the technical

responsibility as well, but we've never

328

trained them to do the people part.

329

We've never given them.

330

People ability.

331

We've given them technical ability.

332

We've never given them people ability.

333

And so this is one of the things like I,

I feel like I'm on my soapbox all over

334

again, but this is one of the things

that confounds me is why haven't we

335

trained our foreman on how to do this?

336

Okay, we expect high technical

ability yet great, but that's

337

not their role, and that's.

338

That alone is not their role.

339

And using them for that

is to underutilize them.

340

The reality is we should be teaching

them to how to influence people,

341

how to deal with the human side of

things, how to install values, how

342

to install culture, how to install

professionalism, how to do micro learning.

343

So that, and again, I get back to the

idea that I get feedback from Foreman,

344

I've told him again and again and again.

345

Okay, so you keep telling

him, telling isn't working.

346

What else should you do?

347

And they look at me blankly.

348

'cause they don't have anything else.

349

No one's explained to them.

350

This is how you install information

into someone who doesn't have it.

351

That they don't have a framework

for that they don't have, they

352

don't have a tactic for that.

353

They don't even have

good practice for that.

354

We just what?

355

Just get outta hammer and start banging.

356

We're surprising, we're not going,

357

Anthony Perl: we, and how often is it is

that people could just keep explaining

358

the same thing in the same way, and

that's not going to make it any clearer

359

for someone who doesn't know you.

360

You have to change your approach to

how you're delivering that information

361

and the, and the explanation and

the information you make available

362

to them to be able to learn.

363

Otherwise, you're just repeating.

364

Andrew Uglow: And, and I go

back to what's your goal here?

365

Like really as a business,

what's your outcome?

366

Are you just there to make money?

367

Well, we've been doing that for decades

and look at the state of their people.

368

And I, I think that we need to

perhaps have a good hard look.

369

And this plays right up and down.

370

The idea of leadership

is have a good hard look.

371

'cause if we don't take care of

people, no one else is going to.

372

We can't expect people to come

into our business with all the

373

pieces that we want them to have.

374

That doesn't exist anymore.

375

And so we can so about it and go, oh,

this and all that, and we can cycle

376

through people and we can invest a million

dollars plus a year on staff turn if

377

we want to, or maybe we could invest

less than that and start to work about

378

developing the people side of things

and make that part of people's KPI.

379

Hey look Anthony, we want you

to learn how to manage people.

380

We want you to learn how to.

381

In install culture, we want you

to learn how to do micro learning.

382

Anthony, we want you to be able to manage

customers as part of your role as a, a

383

senior tech or a foreman or a controller.

384

Andrew, we want you to be

able to lead millennials.

385

Well, let's, let me show you how

you do that because until we do,

386

I, I don't know about you, but I

just see a self repeating cycle.

387

I see the same complaint that we've

been banging on about for 30 years.

388

Plus happening again

389

Anthony Perl: and again and again.

390

I mean, I think if you were to jump

in a time machine and go back 30 or

391

40 years and you were to have this

conversation with them, they'd probably

392

be saying exactly the same thing.

393

Oh, we just can't get good people anymore.

394

It's a story that we've been telling.

395

For so long that it almost becomes

compulsory to tell the story

396

rather than to address the problem.

397

Andrew Uglow: Right?

398

It's, yeah, it's easier to have a

complaint than it is to, what is it?

399

I must do Something always achieves

more than something must be done, and

400

so I've taken this very personally.

401

Anthony, just as we wrap up this idea.

402

This is not a small trivial thing for me.

403

This has been burning my butt for years.

404

Like how do we solve this problem?

405

How do we get around this?

406

How do we facilitate outstanding

financial performance for businesses

407

when all of the things are tightening?

408

'cause they are like, pick one.

409

This is what I'm saying about automotive.

410

If you can be successful in automotive

with everything stacked against you and

411

still be successful, what can't you do?

412

So given that environment, how do we.

413

Run better.

414

How do we operate better?

415

How do we, given that it's all the things

that it is, how do we do that well?

416

And ultimately it comes

down to the technicians.

417

In any workshop, the quality of my

technicians are directly proportional

418

to the profitability of my business.

419

Sure, I need good, efficient management.

420

Sure, I need great systems.

421

Sure I need great customer service people.

422

That all helps amplify

what the technicians do.

423

But if I don't have

good techs, I'm nowhere.

424

I go back to, well, whose job is

it not to train the technicians?

425

Whose job is it to

develop the technicians?

426

And that goes back to the service

manager and more specifically,

427

it goes back to the foreman.

428

Sure, we want foreman that are high

technical without question, but we

429

need them to be high people as well.

430

And we get that by training

them and there's nothing.

431

There is absolutely zero.

432

I can send them to TAFE and they can

do a cert four and workplace leadership

433

or workplace business management or

workplace, you know, whatever it is.

434

And okay, nice piece of paper.

435

And they'll learn some stuff,

but it doesn't cut the mustard.

436

It's not what they need.

437

And so I've gone and doubled down on this.

438

I have far out, I have invested enormous

amounts of time, research, energy.

439

The reason I know all these complaints

is I've been testing this over years

440

with people, and so I've developed

essentially what is a foreman school?

441

How do you get your foreman up

in the scale of people ability or

442

you send them to foreman school?

443

Well, you would send them to trade

school to learn the technical.

444

Well send them to foreman school to

learn the other side, the people side.

445

And so we've developed a, a program

called the Professional Foreman Method,

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literally right about to launch.

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So this is, if you're watching this

or listening to this, this is October.

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Early October, we plan to be

launching by the end of the

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month and taking enrollments for,

how do you train your foreman?

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Well, this is how you train your foreman.

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This is, I'm gonna argue the first

time that I know of that there is a

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foreman school that we teach foreman

and controllers how to manage people,

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not how to manage business, not

how to manage technical ability.

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We'll help with that for sure, but

this is how to manage people how

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to, or better how to lead people.

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How to install the culture, how to have

the challenging conversations, how to get

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these millennials to do what you want them

to do, or what if they wanted to do it?

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Wouldn't that be easier?

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Wouldn't that be a better solution?

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Instead of me pushing these people,

wouldn't it be better if I led them,

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if I facilitated them doing their job?

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Wouldn't that be a far more

sensible way to approach this?

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Instead of push, push, push,

push, bang, bang, bang with a

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hammer because it's not working.

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What we're doing now positively is not.

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I sure we get some results,

but gee whiz, for what effort?

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What time, what cost.

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Anthony Perl: Thank you for listening

to the Frictionless Workshop podcast.

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For details on how to get Andrew

working with you and your technicians.

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Take a look at the show notes.

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There's also a link to some

special content you can access.

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I'm Anthony Pearl reminding you to

subscribe so you don't miss an episode.