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Co-host: Anthony Perl

Produced by: 'Podcasts Done for You'

The ecosystem that breaks foremen.

2

Join passionate automotive trainer and

coach Andrew Uglow as he unpacks the

3

CAMPS framework, customers, advisors,

managers, parts, and sales, and reveals

4

how these so-called time vampires

quietly pull foremen away from the

5

work they are actually responsible for.

6

In this episode, you'll learn why most

foreman burnout is not a personal failure,

7

how urgency drags good people off their

mark, and why the foreman and service

8

manager must work as a pair to protect

time, boundaries, and performance.

9

Discover how to spot the systematic

pressures that keep foremen firefighting,

10

and understand why the skill that got

someone promoted is not always the skill

11

that makes them effective in the role.

12

Along the way, you'll hear why leadership,

not just management, is the missing link

13

in fixing the people

gap inside the workshop.

14

I'm your co-host Anthony Perl, and this

is the Frictionless Workshop podcast.

15

Let's get cranking.

16

Andrew, I think we've got to tackle

this whole issue of the ecosystem

17

that breaks foremen, because we've

been skirting around the edges of--

18

We've talked in previous episodes

about capability and about measuring.

19

But at the end of the day, what

is this ecosystem that is really

20

going to cause the big issues?

21

Andrew Uglow: Yeah.

22

So I call this CAMPS, C-A-M-P-S,

CAMPS, which stands for customers,

23

advisors, managers, parts, and sales.

24

And, and I, I call them time vampires,

and I'm, I mean this in the nicest way.

25

I…

26

nothing malicious.

27

I'm sure the people that work in

the business are great people.

28

I'm sure they mean well.

29

They're trying to get their

job done, without question.

30

And at the same time, these

are all the things that absorb,

31

mystically absorb the foreman's

time In addition to all of the other

32

responsibilities that the foreman has.

33

And so I don't want to turn this

into a whinge about, you know, oh,

34

the parts department, or the service

advisors, or this and all that.

35

This is about a systemic issue that,

that exists, and if, if we can't call

36

it out, well, how can we possibly

make steps towards addressing it?

37

So yeah, CAMPS.

38

It's the, it's the, it's the, the

pieces that are the time black hole.

39

You know, I just spent 10 minutes,

20 minutes, an hour solving someone

40

else's problem, and I didn't

get my responsibilities done.

41

And so as a foreman, I keep

getting dragged off my mark.

42

I keep getting pushed off my spots,

like being in the, in the ocean in,

43

in, in waist-deep water, and you're

getting pushed around as the, as

44

the currents and the tide move.

45

And you, you're supposed to be

doing these things and you're not.

46

You're doing those things.

47

And for foreman, it's really frustrating.

48

It's a big contributor to foreman

burnout, and it's also a really big

49

contributor for some of the really

negative internal dialogue that I know

50

that foremen run because they look at

their performance and they go, "Well, I

51

should be able to do this, and I should

be able to do that, and I should have

52

done this, and I should have done that."

53

And they should all over themselves,

but at the end of the day, they were

54

never taught how to manage this.

55

They weren't given structures,

strategies, methodologies, tactics

56

for dealing with th- the CAMPS, the

customers, advisors, managers, parts

57

and sales teams that absorb their time.

58

And it's not that those people are evil.

59

They're not.

60

They're trying to get their job done.

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But we're out of balance.

62

And so I go back to this is a

systemic issue, not a personal issue.

63

Anthony Perl: Begs the question then,

you know, with all of this stuff is

64

how do you actually address this in

a meaningful way and pull it apart?

65

Because I think one of the, one of

the issues that happens i- in all

66

kinds of workplaces all the time,

and particularly on ones of the scale

67

that we're talking about, is there's

this notion that everything is urgent.

68

And so how do you fit

that into this landscape?

69

Andrew Uglow: It's funny, I was listening

to a business psychologist, and they

70

were talking about how the human

brain is wired to respond to urgency.

71

You know, it comes out, out

of our, our primal part of the

72

brain, fight, flight, freeze.

73

You know, something, you know, when

there's a, a large animal about to

74

eat me, well, that's somewhat urgent.

75

You know?

76

Sure, it's important that I, I, you

know, tuck my kids into bed, but

77

that's not urgent at this point.

78

So we respond neurologically to this.

79

And so I go back to, if we're

going to resolve this issue,

80

step one is a- awareness.

81

If we don't have, firstly, even general

awareness, but better if we can have some

82

really specific awareness around what's

actually happening, it's gonna be really

83

challenging to put in place the parts

that need to be there to resolve this.

84

And let me just put on my realism

hat and just go, I'm not sure

85

that you ever will solve it.

86

What I believe you can do

is you can mitigate it.

87

You can stop it from stealing

as much of your time as a

88

foreman that it currently does.

89

And so this comes back if we go,

okay, so there's a problem here.

90

Foreman's getting pushed

from pillar to post.

91

They're getting pushed off their mark.

92

They should be doing these things.

93

They're now doing those things.

94

We need them to do those things because

no one else can do those things, so w-

95

we don't have another solution for that.

96

So one of the challenges has

been that we just keep responding

97

out of this urgency, and

98

We don't pause and step back and

go, "Ah, well, hang on a minute.

99

Let's take a little bit of a meta view.

100

Let's do a helicopter view

and find out what's, what's,

101

what's the driver behind that?

102

What's the driver behind that?

103

What's the driver behind that?"

104

And I go, this is the foreman's job.

105

Sure, the service manager owns this

'cause this foreman reports to the

106

service manager, and there are parts

around good systems, good processes.

107

There are parts where the service

manager has to have a discussion with

108

the sales manager or the parts manager

or whoever it is and say, "Hey, look,

109

want to help you, and can we do this?

110

Because it's gonna work better for me

than it is what's happening now, and

111

you'll get your stuff done as well."

112

And so good systems and good

processes, and sometimes there

113

needs to be some good discussions.

114

Sometimes, and certainly this has been

my experience, some people that do work

115

in those parts of the business maybe

shouldn't be working in those parts of the

116

business Lovely people and all, but just

not suited to that role, or not skilled in

117

that role, or not suited for the industry.

118

And so you can-- I'm sure you

appreciate what I mean when I say that.

119

Um, and have them work for

someone else rather than you.

120

Those big pieces, th- those, those

big chunks, sure, they exist.

121

Got to address that.

122

But at the foreman level, the foreman

needs a way to, and we spoke about this

123

before, how to maintain boundaries.

124

So when someone comes to me

and says, "Andrew, I need

125

you to da, da, da, da, da."

126

Okay, no problems.

127

But I've got all this other work.

128

Which one of these am I gonna

drop in order to do that?

129

Because I can't do both.

130

And that's a tough conversation to

have because everything's urgent.

131

You know, do, do you want

me to stop work on Mrs.

132

McGillicuddy's car so I can work on Mr.

133

Smythe's car?

134

Because I can't do both.

135

But the challenge is that foremen come out

of this world where when the pressure's

136

on, they've got this really good work

ethic, generally speaking, maybe not

137

all of them, but a lot of them, and

the pressure's on, fine, I go harder.

138

You know?

139

Just, you know, try me.

140

Let, show, let me show you what I can do.

141

And, and, and, and they do.

142

They're very resourceful, very effective,

very-- This is why they're foreman, right?

143

They're foreman because

they're good at what they do.

144

But that doesn't work

in the role of foreman.

145

The skill that got you to foreman

isn't the skill that makes

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you successful as a foreman.

147

And, and no one seems to have

explained that to foremen or service

148

managers even, for that matter.

149

Anthony Perl: Speaking of service

managers then, where do they

150

fit into the equation of this?

151

Andrew Uglow: Yeah.

152

So having, I'm gonna use the

word privilege to work for a

153

high-capability foreman and an

exceptional service manager.

154

They, they manage this as a pair.

155

This is a two-person challenge, right?

156

So one of the things that I saw them

do was they put in place processes

157

for certain types of things.

158

So if there was a parts issue that

needed the foreman's attention,

159

well, okay, let's-- that comes

to the service manager first.

160

The service manager then does the

triage and goes, "Yeah, we'll get to

161

that tomorrow," or, "We'll address it

now," or, "I'll have a technician come

162

and do that for you," or, "One of my

service team will, will address it."

163

So the, the service manager becomes

the filter for most of these things.

164

So when sales go, "Oh, we've got a

car that's supposed to go out and,

165

and pre-delivery didn't do this,"

or, "They didn't do that," or,

166

"The battery's gone flat and I need

it done now and the customer's on

167

the way and we're all gonna die."

168

Sure, okay.

169

We can address the urgent that are the

urgent, but don't just stop at that.

170

Like go and put in place a

process so that doesn't happen.

171

And usually the reason that the foreman's

the fixer is because there is a cascade

172

of things that have gone wrong, and

they just end up being the bunny.

173

And if they don't have the skill of

maintaining boundaries and having,

174

I'll call them effective conversations,

they might be a bit challenging, but

175

effective conversations and going, "Well,

hey, here's the reality of my world.

176

I still have these responsibilities

even though this has occurred for you.

177

How are we gonna make this work?"

178

Uh, because there's usually a way.

179

And look, sometimes it does mean

that the foreman doubles down or

180

stays late or there's overtime or

there's, there's these other things.

181

But just having everything get dropped

on the foreman's desk is profoundly

182

ineffective, and I'm gonna argue harmful.

183

Anthony Perl: The Frictionless

Workshop podcast is brought

184

to you by Solutions Culture.

185

For details on how to get in touch with

Andrew, consult the show notes below.

186

And don't forget to subscribe

so you don't miss an episode.

187

Now, back to the podcast.

188

What's interesting too here is, is that

it kind of points out to this issue

189

that we've talked about in previous

episodes, where just because you're

190

the best at the job doesn't mean

that you should be the person that

191

is next batter up to be the foreman.

192

Because the negative of that as well

is, is you can be taking your best

193

technician off the floor, and in this

kind of situation can be proving that

194

they've got the ability to fix the

problems, so just maybe if they were

195

there fixing the problems all the time

and not being the foreman, we wouldn't

196

have the problems in the first place.

197

Andrew Uglow: Yeah.

198

So do I have permission just

to be out and out honest here?

199

And I'm not gonna be rude, but I

just, I wanna call a spade a spade,

200

because if we don't get awareness,

like how can you fix anything?

201

So is that all right?

202

Anthony Perl: Your show.

203

You've gotta, you've gotta

have the honest- Yeah.

204

We, we've gotta be honest

with you, don't we?

205

But it's a-- But you're right.

206

Uh, you're 100% right, and I think

it, people should be nodding their

207

heads when they're listening here.

208

Andrew Uglow: So if you wanna track

this back to cause and effect, and,

209

and there's layers and levels of

cause and effect, this is a systemic

210

failure, and this is, this is a

systemic failure at a leadership level.

211

So this, this starts with

the dealer principal.

212

And dealer principals, if

you're listening, please, I'm

213

not throwing you under the bus.

214

I recognize the difficulty and

complexity that you deal with.

215

Uh, and at the same time, given

the reports, and we're gonna talk

216

about this in another episode.

217

Given all the reports and the, the

pressure and tension on margin and all

218

these sorts of things, this is the perfect

time to go and solve the leadership issue.

219

And the leadership issue starts with you.

220

Uh, but it cascades down.

221

And

222

there is a vacuum of leadership.

223

We're, we're pretty good at management,

generally speaking, in automotive,

224

but there is a vacuum of leadership,

and the two are not the same.

225

Leadership looks after the person as

much as they look after the numbers,

226

and the consequence of looking after the

person is you look after the numbers.

227

You just do, because

people produce numbers.

228

The numbers don't just

magically occur by themselves.

229

Sure, you need systems, technology,

all those pieces, gotta have.

230

Sure.

231

But it's the person who's

delivering the outcomes.

232

And so start with the person.

233

Don't start with the system

and throw the person at it.

234

Start with the person.

235

It matters.

236

And when we talk about starting

with the person, everybody needs

237

reward, recognition, and resource.

238

If they don't have the resources,

how can they possibly perform?

239

And the difference between retention

and departure are those three things:

240

recognition, reward, resource.

241

It's not hard.

242

Other indus- industries can manage it.

243

In fact, other indus- industries do

brilliantly because they don't get

244

stuck in this obsessive compulsive

monthly urgent cycle of hit my numbers

245

If I manage my people well, if I lead

my people well, if I install leaders, if

246

leadership's not my strength, no problems.

247

Find someone who has that and install

them in the business, and then let

248

them continue to install leaders.

249

Because if my foreman has a great

manager, then I'll have a great foreman.

250

And if I've got a great foreman, I'll

have a great technical team because the

251

foreman produces a great technical team.

252

It doesn't happen overnight,

but it happens because

253

that's what great foremen do.

254

And if I've got a great technical

team, how can I not hit the numbers?

255

How can I not maintain and retain

my people, maintain my skill

256

and retain my peop- like this,

this is cascade up and down.

257

We know this.

258

This is not new

259

80/20.

260

I know 20% of the industry are

doing it really, really well, and

261

this shows in Deloitte's figures.

262

If you're across the lat- latest industry

Deloitte report, you'll see it there

263

And the ones that aren't, arguably

it's 70/30, but let's call it

264

80/20 'cause we love Pareto.

265

The ones that aren't are

the ones that struggle.

266

They're the ones that are,

are really feeling the pain.

267

And De- Deloitte came out and

said this, and, and we'll talk

268

about that in the next episode.

269

Um, but Deloitte came out and

said, "This is a people problem.

270

As much as it is a numbers and a

financial problem, it's a people problem."

271

So yeah, get it done.

272

Anthony Perl: It's interesting to me

when you look at some of the things that

273

you've been saying there, particularly in

regards to the best people, because it's

274

the best people for the team, isn't it?

275

I mean, I think sometimes it's not always

the top people in every single position

276

that are going to make you work well.

277

I mean, you'd look at

that in a football team.

278

Often the football teams that get amazing

results are the ones that work as a team.

279

There might only be one or two

out-and-out superstars, but it's

280

the team mentality that goes well.

281

Whereas sometimes, and you look at

international teams, and you put the

282

best of everybody in the best positions,

there's too many people fighting for

283

control, and it just doesn't work.

284

Andrew Uglow: Yeah.

285

Jim Collins, I forget the name of

his book, he talks about getting

286

the right people on the bus.

287

So the right people on the bus in

the right seats, and it matters.

288

And so maybe your service

manager might be a great manager.

289

You need leadership across

your service and parts.

290

You don't need more management,

you need more leadership, because

291

leadership plays from a human element

as much as they play from the business.

292

They don't ignore the business.

293

It's not one or the other.

294

It's parallel, and the gap is the

people gap, and that's what's hurting.

295

That's what's showing up

in the financial figures.

296

Anthony Perl: So just to wrap

up this episode, give us a

297

tip for what they can do.

298

What is the one lever that they should

be pulling in this particular scenario?

299

Andrew Uglow: So for foreman, my, my

response would be to, to, to maintain

300

your boundaries and to do it respectfully

because the person that's asking me to do

301

this, they're trying to get stuff done.

302

They've been put in a tight spot too.

303

So do it with empathy, right?

304

Don't do it-- Don't throw

them under the bus, okay?

305

'Cause you got, gotta work together.

306

And, and where you can,

bit of give, bit of take.

307

Um, but that question that I mentioned

earlier, "Okay, if I do this for

308

you, what can you do for me?"

309

Or, "How can you help

me get my things done?"

310

'Cause there might be something.

311

Now, obviously, if it's diagnosed a,

a deep, complex, complan- compound

312

technical issue, perhaps asking the

parts guy to do that is a bad idea.

313

But there might be something

else that the parts guy could do

314

that could speed up another part

of the system or the business.

315

"Hey, look, could you da, da,

da, da, da, da, da for me?"

316

Because that now takes the time

that I was going to spend here away.

317

That solves that problem for me.

318

So start to think a

bit more strategically.

319

But also ask that question too of, of

particularly when it comes down from

320

the top- "Hey, you know, Andrew, I need

you to go and do this, this, this."

321

No problemo.

322

Which one of these do you want

to have held up while I do that?

323

Because that gets the thinking out

of the urgent panic, we're all gonna

324

die, into a more strategic stream.

325

And when you start to be more strategic,

you can actually avoid the potholes

326

before they, before you hit them.

327

Anthony Perl: Well, that's all

we have time for in this episode.

328

But if you realize today that your

foreman is being dragged off their mark by

329

customers, advisors, managers, parts, and

sales, it is time to stop treating that as

330

a personality problem, and as Andrew says,

start treating it as a system problem.

331

The next step is to look at where

urgency is stealing time, where

332

boundaries are missing, and where

the service manager needs to become

333

the filter rather than letting every

problem land on the foreman's desk.

334

A workbook has been created to

accompany this episode of the podcast.

335

It's got questions for you to

answer, key quotes from the

336

episode, and action steps to take.

337

You can download your copy from

the link in the show notes.

338

Lots of information in there as well

on how to get in touch with Andrew

339

and his team at Solutions Culture.

340

Make sure you share this with

your service manager as well.

341

But whatever you do, don't miss our

next episode because Andrew will

342

be unpacking how to install foreman

effectiveness without tanking the month.

343

He gets into why sending a foreman

off to a two-day training course

344

can actually compound the problem,

and why coaching may be the missing

345

bridge between knowing there is a

capability gap and actually closing it.

346

If you want to build foremen who can

perform without blowing up productivity,

347

you can't afford to miss the episode.

348

If you found value in today's episode,

wherever you're tuning in, please

349

like, share, comment, and subscribe

so you never miss an episode.

350

Until next time, keep your workshop

running smooth and frictionless