Your kid finally learned to regulate their emotions... and then they turned 8 and it all fell apart. Sound familiar?

In this episode, Eli sits down with Alyssa Campbell—co-author of the New York Times bestseller Tiny Humans, Big Feelings and her new book Big Kids, Bigger Feelings—to unpack why the pre-teen years hit so differently (and why your biases might be making it worse).

They dive into:

1. Why that "calm period" around age 6-7 doesn't last (and what's actually happening in your kid's brain)
2. How to parent when your sensory needs are completely opposite your child's
3. The difference between entitlement and dysregulation (spoiler: it's usually the second one)
4. Why "attention-seeking" behavior is actually a need, not a want
5. A free tool to understand your (and your kid's) unique nervous system

Whether you have neurotypical or neurodivergent kids, this conversation will change how you see those eye rolls, door slams, and "attitudes."

Resources mentioned:

1. Take the free Sensory Quiz: seedquiz.com
2. Big Kids, Bigger Feelings by Alyssa Campbell
3. Tiny Humans, Big Feelings
4. Learn more about Seed and Sew: Link

Music by Gold Child - www.goldchildmusic.com

welcome to the How To Deal podcast. We're so happy you're here.

Thank you.

We've been on this journey together where you you have this New York Times bestselling book, Tiny Humans Big Feelings, and now you are on to the next stage of development and you have this new book out, Big Kids Bigger Feelings. And for me personally, with my 10 year old, I am in that. We are in the bigger feelings right now and I just loved reading your book.

Yeah.

it's such a compassionate real life guide for what it is like to journey through the later years of emotional development. You know, the early years are hard. Those toddler years are hard. Those tiny humans and big feelings that is complicated and constant and intense. And.

Thank you.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

It is a different level of emotional complexity once you get into this kind of like post seven and a half, eight to 11, 12, somewhere in that range. It's a lot.

Mm-hmm.

Totally.

And our biases start to really come into play. when my one year old hits me or she right now is saying, ⁓ no, listen to me, mama, listen to me. It's like so cute, right? You laugh because it's so cute. And when they're nine and they're slamming the door or giving you sarcasm or sass or the eye rolls that they chuck their backpack on the ground.

Mm.

Ha

Yes.

it stops being funny because our biases come into play where we're like, they're old enough to know better. And that starts to come up in this space where we don't expect these kids to be doing this. And now there's a whole different concoction of parts of us popping up that come into play that I don't think we talk enough about in this space.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

You know, the other part of it that I think is really not talked about enough is that our kids go through this period where they have learned how to feel their feelings and articulate their feelings and they are far more calm, receptive, cooperative. And that usually happens for most kids around like six and a half and it lasts till around eight or eight and a half. And so I think there's this little one two punch

Hmm.

where we feel like, I'm through the phase. I'm through it. Freud called this the latency phase. Freud's not my reference for a lot of stuff, but it's this period of time. It's a calm in between the emotional developmental storms. And so then kids hit eight and a half to nine, and we know that puberty is starting earlier, that those hormonal changes.

Sure.

Mm.

that their brains are starting to myelinate earlier, right? So there's this flip back where all of a sudden this kid who was showing emotional maturity and regulation looks like they're developing an attitude because that's the only thing that makes sense to us is well, you already know how to manage your emotions. So then like, what is this you're doing? Like, this is not okay. No. And we have to have

Mm-hmm.

for sure. feels like that.

enough insight to be like, no, this is just the other side of the emotional development cyclone. And we're gonna be here till they're around 25.

Exactly.

Exactly. And frankly, my husband's still hanging out with mine. So cheers to that. I think this is one of those things where a couple things come up. the around seven, Brene Brown, first name basis Brene. That's a false, would love to. Dreams Brene if you're listening. She has research that has shown us that under the age of seven,

Mm-hmm.

Love her.

You

Kids are really focused on an adult attachment. You do so much work in this space. Adults keep them alive. And not that if you drop a seven-year-old in the wild, they're gonna thrive, but they are gonna potentially be able to ask for help or find shelter or find food in a way that you can't do with a toddler. That they aren't just going to survive if you drop them in the wild. And when we're looking at this,

Yes.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yes.

shift, when we know that around seven, they start to then look at who am I outside the home? What does this look like for me in the world, my friendships, my peer relationships, my identity? What am I interested in? What lights me up? What shoes do I feel like I want to wear? Or activities do I want to be a part of? And all of a sudden, there is kind of this

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

developmental shift into not just who am I at home and in my family structure, but who am I in the world? Who am I in my peer groups? And with this can feel like, I'm losing my baby. You start to see that identity shift and peer influence play a really big role and inclusion and belonging play a really big role in a way that it didn't before. And so I think of that. I also think about how one of the things when we were writing Big Kids,

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes.

we interviewed a lot of families and teachers and kids. And one of the things that we found was that that kind of latency period where maybe things feel a little calmer was true for a lot of families who have neurotypical children and not true for a lot of families who have neurodivergent children. That there wasn't a calm period, essentially. No. Yeah, where a lot of folks were reporting like,

Mmm. Mm-hmm.

That didn't happen. Yeah

I'm seeing the X, Y, and Z behaviors that we were talking about in maybe nine year olds for some kids in my six year old or I haven't stopped seeing this behavior that we saw three or four in my six or seven year old. And that was really interesting to dive into the role that sensory regulation plays in this time period.

Yes,

yes. And you know, you and I both have kids that have been diagnosed with autism. I have an ADHD. You know, there is a different process of emotional development and self-development, you know, when you have a brain that is specialized for something other than that kind of neurotypical journey. Totally.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That's right. And,

the sensory systems and how hardwired they are to say to you, my autistic child will tell you he is his superpower is that he notices details. And so with this comes overwhelm that he notices all the details in this space. And so with that, his brain gets overwhelmed in a way that my daughter who's neurotypical does not

Hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

notice details in the space in the same way, and she doesn't get overwhelmed in the same ways. And so for her finding periods of calm is easier for her brain. His brain, it really has to be intentional and carved out and supported, especially living in a neurotypical world. When we look at like our school systems and our day to day, this world's designed for a neurotypical brain for the most part. so

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

without intentionality around that, that latency period, I think, can be hard to come by for some folks.

Well, I think about how when we look at attachment, we talk about synchronicity, the ability to feel connected to each other, right? In sync. I like to think of that kind of musicality in a relationship of like we're on, we're playing the same song. And what I think is hard for our neurodivergent kids, especially, and for any of you all who are also identify yourselves as neurodivergent, is that you often end up in the room with a very different song.

Mm-hmm.

in your body than what everyone else is experiencing. So you might be in sort of a symphony kind of mood and everyone else seems to be battering off in some sort of a, I don't know, ska band, something that's just like, we're not in the same mode or vice versa. You're in this deeply rhythmic place and everyone else is playing jazz. And you're like, how, what? How do I?

Mm-hmm.

What is this? This doesn't make any sense to me. And so I think that that's such a good reminder that as we talk about development in general, it's going to look different for different kids and that these stages may not always come in chronological, linear, predictable ways. And neurodivergent kids often are less interested in that peer development stage because

Yeah.

you

It feels so overwhelming to try to get in sync with other neurotypical kids, which is a great plug to say one thing that I have found is like, look for the kids that your neurodivergent kids feel natural synchronicity with and build those relationships because what that will do for them over time is they will build confidence that they can create connections, which makes it easier to take risks and learn connections with new people and being able to point out like, you know, we joke with my most neurodivergent daughter that

Yes.

you know, her love language as a toddler was wrestling. And so there was a lot of times with her twin sister, with other kids where we would have to go, oh, it looks like our friend doesn't feel this kind of the same kind of joy about being pummeled to the ground that you do. Who wants to be pummeled to the ground? And, you know, often there was a kid who wanted to be pummeled to the ground, who was like, yes, I remember on vacation one time we ended up like in a hot tub and there was another kid who all he wanted to do was wrestle. And it was like their eyes met and it was like.

Mmm.

Hehehehehe ⁓

Ah, you know, he didn't feel, you know, my and my her twin was like, thank goodness someone else wants to wrestle with her. Yes. Yes.

Ha ha

Yeah, please step on it and I'll tap out. Yeah

Yeah, I love that that it really is finding who do you mess with who do you do you gel with and in a household that's tricky because we're gonna have sensory mismatches within the house and We talk about that in big kids. What does it look like if you're a sensory mismatch with your kid if for instance for me I love

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

auditory processing and I love touch and so when I'm having a hard time I'm like I want to talk it through I want you to validate my experience I would love a hug I want to be close I'm like put me on that Drew Barrymore show where she climbs into your lap basically because like that's what I want and that is my son's nightmare that's my son's nightmare and so in the moment

Mm.

Yes.

Yes, this is why we're friends.

Yes. ⁓

when he's having a hard time especially, he needs me to be quiet, to be present, but to be quiet and not touch him. And it is so hard because I have to override everything I naturally want to do. To do what he needs, not what I need.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm hmm. hmm. Yep. You have to attune.

Yes, you have to attune to him and use skills, attunement skills that are at this moment in your process, maybe quieter than some of your soothing instincts. So it's like, OK, my soothing instinct. And I'm the same way again. I'm like, let's talk it out. Let's look at each other's eyes. Let's validate. Let's have some good hugs and melt together. Right.

Mm-hmm.

you

Totally.

true with my neurodivergent daughter too, is that when there is a certain level of overwhelm, her sensory systems are just prickly. So touch, eye contact and proximity. It's like adding fuel to a fire of sensory overwhelm. So when she runs back into her room and slams the door, I know to walk very quietly back there, give her a little minute and to really gently say into the door,

correct.

Do you want me to come in or do you want me to give you more time? And she, she used to, it took me a while also to adjust my body. And there was times where she would say, go away. And I think part of that was because she knew that when I came into the room, I was going to be yapping at her and it was going to be too much, or I was going to be trying to hold her and she wasn't ready yet. But I've gained her trust over time by showing that when I come into the room, I'm going to come in really attuned and really gentle. And I'm going to sit next to her. I'm going to say,

100%.

That was so hard or you were so sad. But I'm not going to say anything else. And I'm to be showcasing to her. My presence is a place of calmness for you. And then it really often doesn't take that long for her then to say, I didn't want to like and I'll say it sometimes if she's still dysregulated, I'll ask again, is it helpful that I'm here? Do you need some more space? Stay, mom, stay, mom. OK, I'm here, you know, and then.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

eventually her body once her once her brain stops firing then she wants the soothing and this is very different than my more neurotypical kids so my more neurotypical kids when their brain is firing off with overwhelm they find physical containment and proximity is immediately soothing that is the thing they want they want to crawl into my lap and be held and contained and she does too at times so this is not like a black and white thing yes it's like here's the formula

same.

Hmm.

It wouldn't be so nice. If it's like, okay, check

here is exactly and I think that's that's part of the problem here is that it's so hard because you feel like, okay, now I figured out their formula. But wait, it doesn't work in this context, or they want something else here. And the cognitive flexibility for us as the adult to say it's not always one way. And my husband is also neurodivergent and

Yes.

Yes.

Yeah.

actually undergoing autism testing now after Sagey got diagnosed and we're like in that script the like report he left and he was like ⁓ check to all of the above and I was like for sure dude and so he but for him like the black and white thinking is so organic for him that he is like okay this is what Sagey needs this is what Mila needs and here I can apply that and so then when it doesn't apply

⁓

I would even call that,

I'm just gonna edit this slightly only because sometimes we reference in our field black and white thinking as being a negative or like a lower level of thinking. So I would change the phrase to systematic thinking. His brain systematizes, this goes here, that goes there, this is how it works.

Mmm.

Sure, great.

100 % I actually think it's a very

efficient way to think where he can for him take things out of his conscious brain and put it into his subconscious because he's like, okay, this is how I respond to stages, how respond to me let down in the same way that he he does a lot of like he makes breakfast in the morning for the kids and gets that set up he does mornings. And so

Mm-hmm.

But I had to say at one point, he and Sage could have the same thing for breakfast every day. In fact, that's pretty regulating for them. He does have the same thing every day. And Mila started to like refuse breakfast. And he's like, Oh, yeah, she's not into X, Y, and Z anymore. And I was like, Well, I wonder if she's not into it. Or if we made a list of like here are three or four things that you kind of cycle through, if that might be helpful for her that she just doesn't want the same thing. 14 days in a row. Yeah, exactly. And

Mmm.

Mm-hmm. She got sick of it. Mm-hmm.

But for him, he's like, okay, yep, great. Here are my three or four things I can now cycle through. But so when we're looking, he has, well, his undergrad was jazz music, his master's is architecture, but now he works in construction estimating. So he lives in spreadsheets, which is awesome for him because it all makes sense.

What does he do for work?

Well, that's what was just thinking is like, he's probably very good at some of the things that those of us who don't have that like strong systemic brain struggle more with where like I think about coders and engineers. And so it's like, okay, so if this then this, if that then that. so, but I know what you're about to think, I know what you're about to say, but then it becomes more challenging when you're dealing with a human child where

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

Correct.

⁓

It's

not always if this then that. it's a neurodivergent child. Give them space. Well, no, sometimes our neurodivergent children will feel if we give them too much space, they feel abandoned. So.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Or like Zach, when he's a sensory mismatch with Mila, my daughter, she wants first and foremost, the validation or auditory processing, she wants you to talk through like, man, this is what just happened. And this is how I think you're feeling. And this makes sense. And yada, she's like, talk to me, talk to me, talk to me, talk to me. And when he is having a hard time or he feels flooded, he goes quiet, he shuts down. And so she then continues to escalate and is like,

Mm-mm.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

talk to me dad, talk to me dad. And he's like, I literally can't right now. Like, I cannot get the words to come out of my mouth right now. And so we think when we're looking at all of this, it's so important. It's why seeing a post on Instagram is so tough, because it's like, sure, sometimes that applies to this kid or this team or this partner or whatever in this moment, but then we're all humans living in the world. And so so much of our work at Seed,

Hmm.

Yes. Yes.

and our focus in big kids and in all of our stuff is around understanding your nervous system, understanding your child's nervous system, and where to go from there. Like, how do we use that as a jumping off point for really understanding each other and having compassion for what the other person's coming to the table experiencing? And we do the bulk of our works in schools. So we work in school districts, elementary and middle schools, and then we work in childcare programs, family childcare providers.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Mm. Yes.

And when we come through, we are really focused first and foremost on just understanding each person's nervous system, the teachers, the kids. We worked with a group of OTs to put a tool together that helps us do this. But we used this tool last year in a high need school. They've got a number of kids with at least one parent incarcerated, lot of poverty. And it's this phenomenal school district.

They do such incredible work and we kick started last year with the pre-K kindergarten and first grade. And all we did was start with the sensory regulation component. So we did the questionnaire to understand each kid's nervous system and the teachers. And then we put tools in place proactively throughout the day to help support regulation. That was all we focused on first and foremost. And

from Q1 to Q2, we saw a 60 % reduction in behavior support calls. And it, isn't it so cool? And it's just like, if we start there, the results are pretty rad. That when we can support nervous system regulation, and not just for kids with an IEP or a 504, but for everyone, including the teacher who's sensory sensitive and is overwhelmed by these students and then needs obedience and compliance because her nervous system's fried.

Amazing.

Yes.

Right? So looking at like, how do we make sure there's regulation support for everyone in the building as just a baseline?

Hmm

Oh, I love it. You know, and what you're saying in different terms is how do we make sure that there is synchronicity and connection within the environment that helps kids feel? Yes, exactly. That's what I say. One of the one of the things that we've noticed with all of our kids is the warmth and enthusiasm with which a teacher greets our child is directly correlated directly.

Mm-hmm.

Everyone feels safe.

Hmm.

with how confident our kid feels in that class, how confident they feel in their academics, how easily they ask for help. And it's just like this very simple initial interaction. That can set the stage for the whole day. And so it's like...

I think the challenge

is that it also requires attunement. That if you greet my daughter and you're like, hey girl, how was your weekend? What's going on? It's so nice to see you. She's like, yeah, let's go. And if you greet my son like that, he's like deuces.

Hmm. Yes. Hmm.

Yes. I'm so glad you said that piece because I think when we're describing what warmth looks like and feels like, it feels like someone who's in sync and in tune with me. So if I'm coming into the classroom overwhelmed and someone gives me loud auditory demonstrative movement visuals,

what I was saying.

Heh.

That's going to make me feel more out of sync. But if someone can get down on my level and go, hi, Sagey. Good morning. I love what you have in your head. you make that like gets in tune with like, where is Sage focused? Where is what is what is Sage's, you know, the sounds a little woo woo, but I don't know how else to say it. But what's his energy? How can I how can I match energy in such a way that Sage can feel he is seen? He is supported.

and he is connected where he is, right? I love that comment, so helpful.

Hmm.

It's also not woo woo. It's when we if we want to get down into the science of it all, we talk about this in big kids to the ninth sensory system, our neuroceptive system.

I love the science.

is exactly what you're speaking to. Our neuro-oceptive system is the energy reader in the room. It's the one that if I walk in and you're in conflict with somebody and you stop arguing because I walked into the room, I can still feel that energy in the room, right? Like you can read and you're like, it's awkward in here. Or if I come and I say, you're like, how are you? And I say, I'm fine. You know the difference between I'm fine and yeah, I'm fine. How are you?

you

Mm-hmm.

that's one of your sensory systems that's doing that. It's its job to do that to keep you safe in the world, to read the energy around you, which is all about the nonverbal cues. It's the tone, it's the body language, it's reading everything that isn't being said. And that's what you're talking about. If we want to get nerdy about it, it's your neuroceptive system.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

all different, like, neuroceptively. That Sagey and Zach, both in my family, are neuroceptive sensitive. They really read the energy in heightened way in a way that does not affect Mila and I in the same way. Where when we walk into a space, we are like, I'll notice the energy, but I can then like move right through and keep going. And for Zach and Sage,

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Hmm.

It's really dysregulating if somebody else is dysregulated. They have to work harder than Mila and I do to regulate in those instances.

Yes.

I am more like Zach and Sagey in this regard is that I pick up on. Yes. And I had childhood stuff and my mom struggled with some severe mental illness. My dad had addiction. And so as a child, those cues were very important. And so I still as a grown up, when I am reading other people's energy, have to sometimes pause and find my own energy and separate myself from it a little bit. And

Mm-hmm. A lot of therapists are.

You needed to read that energy.

Mm-hmm

Mmm.

I'm working with patients that have sort of that high response, high nervous system response to energy in the room, I talk about a frying pan. And so it's like, okay, listen, other people have their feelings, you're the pan, their feelings are the eggs, we need to figure out what are things that we can do to a grease the pan so that the egg doesn't get as stuck all over us. And then B, get a really good spatula so that when an egg is a little stuck, we can kind of

take it off and like, you know, hand it back to itself. Like I am the pan, other people's feelings are the egg, and I can figure out how to separate through those two things. And this is in also other nerdy terms, sometimes referred to as emotion contagion or over excitability. It's like my nervous system responds to input in a way that is often overly excited. So someone else is bored and my nervous system is like,

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm

Do they hate me? Do they not like me? What does this mean? And thank goodness at 43, I now know how to sort of like walk that dog. Like, Eli, it's not about you. It's not about you. It's so helpful. But for a small child, that's a really tricky thing. And then put a small child in a classroom of 30 people or in a family with mismatched sensory profiles, you know, it's a lot to hold.

Mm-hmm.

You

So what would you say to parents whose tiny humans are now big kids? What are some of the takeaways that you want to leave with our audience so that they can feel a little more equipped for this bigger feeling stage?

You

Yeah, there's a couple things. One, to get to know that nervous system. And there's a QR code in big kids, but also it is seed quiz.com is where that QR code goes to. We are not gatekeeping over here, spread it around, use it. can, it's free. It's a questionnaire we worked with some occupational therapists to put together. And it breaks down all nine senses. And we talked to you about what they mean, what they are and what

it means when you look at the results page basically. Think like Cosmo Quiz where you take it and it's like, here's your results. And it's gonna let you know, like, are you sensory sensitive? And then of those nine, are you very sensitive, a little sensitive, more neutral, or are you seeking? And how seeking are you? Are you a little seeking? Are you a lot seeking? And what types of input are you seeking? So it helps you know.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

how to take care of your nervous system, what to anticipate that like, I don't hate everyone around me every night, I'm overstimulated by the sound. And so if I can pop earplugs in, I love everyone a little bit more. Or if when Zach gets home from work and I've been with the kids, if I can, he goes up and changes, and then he taps in with the kids and I just get five minutes to just give myself a beat.

Mm-mm.

so looking at like, how do I build those things in? Because I used to just power through and keep going and keep going and then exploding. And so looking at, and then when you get those five minutes, what's most restorative for you as an individual? And that quiz will help you understand that. And you can take it for any age. You can take it for your kiddos. You can take it for you as an adult. And you can take as many times as you want. So that's where I'd start first and foremost so that you can.

Mm-hmm.

I love that self care is buzzwordy, but actually learn how to take care of yourself in a way that's supportive for your unique nervous system. That's number one. Number two is that truly all behavior is communication of a need. And if they leave with nothing else, I hope it's that. That we get to play detective and

Mm-hmm.

This includes when you're seeing something like defiance, where it looks like you have a regulated child who is choosing their words and their actions. This is me. My nervous system dysregulation reaction growing up and still today is most frequently defiance, where I'm like, you told me to do something over my dead body. Am I doing that? I like, whatever the people pleaser good girl syndrome is, I didn't get that.

Hmm.

I got the opposite where like, I just fully go into defiance and it shows up in sarcasm and rudeness and snippiness. And when I was younger, I was often referred to as so dramatic. And when we see this in kids, it's so clear in the same way that like, so I get the like magical four to 5pm hour where I get the kids after school and everyone's spicy and melting and

Hmm

We're trying to get dinner ready and my kids both need different things from each other and from me. And then my husband walks in at about 5, 5 15 from work. And recently he walked in, he was like, Hey, what's for dinner? And I was like, Nope, ⁓ no, I have a lot of questions you could ask right now, but that is not one of them. Try again, my friend. But I was, I went into like full snippy, sarcastic, rude.

Beep, beep, beep, deleted.

reactive, Alyssa, not because I'm choosing that not because I'm like, you know what is going to be best for my marriage? This? No. Exactly. No, it's because I'm in a reactive state. But I'm not screaming. I'm not yelling. I appear calm. And that can be so tricky. When we look at our kids, and they look at you and they appear calm. ⁓

Yeah, let's deploy some snarkiness quickly.

you

It looks like they're choosing their words. It looks like they're choosing their actions or their tone. And so to recognize that all behavior, including defiance and ignoring and misbehavior, is communication of a need. And that to boot with that, we talk a lot about sensory needs as needs. You need food, you need water, your body needs a break, it needs to move. We're talking more and more about that in a way that's awesome.

What we often miss is that connection needs are also needs, not wants. A lot of us grew up in households where attention seeking behavior was seen as a want. You wanted attention, not you need a connection. You need to feel included or like you belong or like you're worthy or valued or loved and that those are needs that we have. And so we talk in Big Kids about your connection blueprint.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

figuring out how does this child feel connected? What fills them up where they feel that connection? Kind of similar to like a love languages vibe of like, how do you actually receive connection? And both of my kids are different in that. And recognizing that need for connection, it doesn't go away if we ignore it. If we stop paying attention to the attention seeking behavior.

Yes.

Yeah.

It doesn't go away. You're just going to see new behaviors pop up because it's still a need that needs to be met.

Love this. What else? Anything? Any last tips or thoughts for our big kids bigger feelings?

Thanks.

Truly just that you're in relationship with a human being. And so it's gonna be messy. You're gonna drop the ball. They're gonna drop the ball. There are so many opportunities that we get to come back and say, ⁓ man, earlier when you came home and you were full of fire and sass, I had a really hard time with that. It's not something that when I was growing up, we were able to do and I wasn't kind to you. I'm gonna try to calm my body to be kinder to you. I'm sorry, bud. Let's try this again if you're down.

Hmm.

I love that.

and that it

doesn't have to be perfect and from a script and it doesn't have to be Instagram worthy. It can just be a genuine connection, you know?

For

me, what I've noticed that when the feelings and the situation feel mismatched, that can be challenging. We had a thing this last week where for fifth grade, the kids get to be a part of orchestra and they all get to pick an instrument. There's this big day where you go and you pick your instrument and you can either rent an instrument or you can maybe buy an instrument. Well, we were like, we're going to rent the instrument because I don't know, what are the chances that you're going to play trumpet for the rest of your life? Probably low, right?

Mm-hmm.

my husband and my son go to this like instrument showcase and they pick the Trumpet and they rent it. And we, we were checking incessantly is the trumpet coming as a trumpet coming and it's not coming on time for the first orchestra practice and the meltdown, was as if oncoming certain death was on its way.

And so that's always challenging for me as a parent because it's I'm processing what's happening to the kids in Gaza. I'm processing like increased hate in the world all the way around. And my 10 year old is like losing his mind that his trumpet won't be there on the first day, even though there's no consequences for that. I know as a parent that ultimately they aren't going to play their trumpets on the first day of orchestra anyway, you know, like, and I have to kind of do this gymnastics of not interpreting his behavior as like,

toxic entitlement and like projecting into the future that he and instead being like this is hard for him to manage right now and why and get curious and stay compassionate and you know when I want to speak mindfully about my kids online I'm really cautious about how much information of their story I share but at the end of the day mastery of something is really important for kids and for my son he wanted to go into that first orchestra day feeling like

Sure.

Yeah.

He was as good at his trumpet as any other students were at their instruments and there are areas in his life

It's also a good

social safety skill.

Totally. And he doesn't have that in some of the areas that are more typical for boys. And so like there was like a desperation in it that that made sense once I once I paused and and instead of going like this is a mismatch dude get over it. You're fine. Right. I had to like pause and be like yeah it's a trumpet like you know seriously is this entitlement what are we dealing with had to pause and be like okay what is it what's the meaning for him. And as soon as I could get under that.

Mm-hmm.

It's a trumpet. Yeah, totally.

And I could get to the point of being like, are you really worried about, feeling like you go in and everyone's just like ready for a Mozart composition and you don't know what you're doing? He's like, yes. And I was like, buddy. And then I walked him through. was like, I want you to think about the fact that you play the piano and how many of your friends play any instruments? How many of them have any musical? And you're like, yeah. And I was like, okay, what are the chances that you're going to go in? And all of these boys are going to be able to, you know, cause he's focused on the boys at the stage.

It's low. And then he could like take a breath and I could help him regulate. the process is me regulating my body and my and the scripts and narratives that my body is creating about my child that are not dignified. That's not a dignified way to see my child and then helping them regulate and learn. And I have a kid who is one of the most empathetic kids in the world and thinks about, you know, the ways in which his he has advantages in life that other people don't have. He thinks about that.

So hard. It's so hard. Yeah.

not an entitlement problem. It was a dysregulation problem. And at the end of the day, the Trumpet still didn't come in time for the second class. And it wasn't his favorite thing, but he could handle it. And he could handle it in part because we co-regulated together and we found our way through it with a story that was dignified.

Totally.

Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

And the ability for you to get curious and recognize like, okay, this isn't a sensory dysregulation problem where in this moment, he's hangry, or he's really tired, and we're going to eat food and he's going to be able to see this differently, or he's going to move his butt. It's a connection need where he's like, I need to feel included in like I belong in that space. And if I walk in and I don't have my trumpet or I don't whatever, do I belong here? And that fear of if I don't

Mm-mm. Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

What does that mean or what is gonna happen for me socially? Am I gonna get made fun of? Am I gonna whatever? All those what ifs. We tell this story about this girl in the book who couldn't find her soccer uniform getting ready out the door and her mom was like, I'll find it. I'll bring it to school later before your game. All good, just go to school. Mom can't find it, finds it, it's not clean. And then she calls the coach. Coach is like, you don't have to worry about cleaning that today. Just bring another shirt that's the same color.

Yes. Yes.

Hmm.

Mm.

And so she does and her daughter loses it. And it we get to walk through like, what actually is at the root of this? And again, how important that inclusion and belonging comes at this stage, and how we can see what feels like an outsized reaction, really from this place of am I included? I mean, I had this happen relatively recently where I had a news segment I was going to be on and I

Yes.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

was packing and traveling first and then my husband was coming with the kids and I had ordered something to be delivered to our house and it was paired with another article of clothing and so was like hey when this box comes it's gonna come after I've already left for the trip and he's meeting me there for the news segment so I was like when this box comes I need you to grab this and you grab this other thing in my room he's like great got it yep

Mm-hmm.

Secured both awesome. It came on time. Perfect. He shows up the thing he grabbed from my room was not the right pair of pants to go at the top and I was like, what are you kidding? I left them out on my chair. I'm like losing it and he's like, okay and I had obviously brought backups in case it didn't even arrive on time, right and All of this was an outsized reaction when a I've got plenty of clothes to wear

⁓ no.

Mm-hmm.

doesn't actually matter. No one's watching the news is like, Oh, my God, that shirt with those pants. What is she thinking? Like none of it really matters. But in that moment, I'm like, Oh, my gosh, this is everything's ruined. No one's going to hear the message because they're going to be like, What in the world is she wearing? It's going to be so distracting that no one's going to hear the message. And fully just like lost it on Zack over what's really not a big deal.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

hahahahah

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

because of exactly this same thing. I didn't have the right shirt or the uniform or the trumpet.

Yes, like, right,

right. And you're going into an, mean, I've done a lot of news segments and so there's a vulnerability in being in the public eye and sharing a message that you're so passionate about. And I think this is true for a lot of different people, but like our clothing can feel like a form of armor or protection. It's like, okay, I don't, I don't know exactly how I'm to be received, but at least if I feel like I look fully like myself, like my, my

Totally.

Totally.

Mm-hmm.

closet

expression is self fulfilling in some way, then I can handle this nerves or whatever is going on. So I hear that fully. just, love the way you think. And I think that everything that you teach is core to how we create deeply secure relationships with our kids. So I'm so thankful for your work. We're going to link to all of the things, the sensory quiz.

Yes.

Thank you.

both of your books and all of your work on Seed and Sow. And I just thank you for being someone who is out there advocating for our kids and for us and thinking through things in such a research-based and compassionate, rooted way.

Thank you.