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Today we learn the distinction between revival and reformation, as articulated by our esteemed guest, Dr. Robert Liardon. Revival typically serves to rejuvenate the hearts of individuals and smaller communities, whereas reformation aims to institute enduring changes within societal structures and cultural paradigms. We delve into the historical significance of both phenomena, emphasizing that while revivals may yield temporary transformations, it is the reformation that engenders lasting societal impact. We also explore contemporary examples of revival activity while concurrently acknowledging that we stand at the precipice of a significant reformation in our culture. This episode serves as both an informative discourse and a call to action to you, to engage actively in shaping the future through a commitment to divine principles.

CHAPTERS

(00:00) - Highlight

(00:50) - Today's Guest

(03:07) - The Journey of a Historian

(09:49) - The Impact of Martin Luther and the Salvation Army

(23:24) - The Shift from Revival to Reformation

(26:54) - The Call to Reformation and Resistance

(36:07) - The Great North American Reformation

(44:30) - Bridging Generations: Lessons from the Older Generation

(47.06) - Thank you

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LINKS REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE

https://www.robertsliardon.org/

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Mentioned in this Episode:

• Oral Roberts University
• Oral Roberts
• Kenneth Hagin
• Charlie Kirk
• Kathryn Kuhlman
• Martin Luther
• William Booth
• Rodney Howard Browne
• Kenneth Copeland
• Lance Wallnau

It's not a revival, it's a reformation.

But is there like a modern day revival happening now?

Just like with the Charlie Kirk assassination?

He takes a bad thing and makes something great come out of it.

He had 100 million people on TV hear the gospel.

Silence means you agree with the dark side.

I saw more of God activity in her service than I had anybody else so far in my life.

If you didn't believe the way they told you, you could be martyred for that and go on trial and be put in prison.

By the end of that service, there was probably 50 to people out of wheelchairs.

Revivals have not changed large amounts of society.

They change hearts and they change smaller amounts of cities.

Reformation has a longer lasting effect than revival.

What would be one of the biggest lessons that you would want this generation to know?

Hello and welcome to Victory Podcast.

This is a podcast where we talk about everyday life through a faith lens.

Living in Victory.

And today we have a special guest, Dr. Robert Lerdin.

Welcome to the podcast.

It's good to be with you.

It's my first time on your podcast, so thanks for having me.

Thank you.

And I hope it's the first of many.

Me too.

Great.

Tell us a little bit about you.

Tell us a little bit about what you do, a little bit about your ministry.

Okay.

My parents went to Oral Beach University the first year it opened.

Okay.

And I was born the next year.

So that's why my name is Roberts with an S. Because Oral Roberts and his wife wanted help named the first baby boy.

Oh, wow.

First baby girl that the students would have.

My parents had the first boy, which was me.

Oh, wow.

And so my name is Kenneth after my dad.

Then Roberts is my middle name and my surname is Laird.

And so that's why it's Robert's lar.

So that's a little bit of unique song.

50 something years explaining that in the world.

So that's a little bit.

But I grew up in Tulsa.

I lived there during the great revival.

And then I started traveling when I was 17 years old.

And so I've done that and I've been to 130 countries.

I preach in person.

It's over half the world.

And I've written about 100.

Not written about.

I've written 101 books and they're in about 60 some languages.

Yeah.

So I've been busy.

Yes, happily busy.

And I travel now.

I pastored a church for a while and did those kind of things.

So.

But Right now I'm full time traveling.

I'm based in beautiful Sarasota, Florida.

Okay.

And so I pastored in California for 20 years and then I moved to Florida after I lived in London.

And so I've lived on both coast with nice beaches here in the Canadian world, in north countries.

Like folks, we're missing out.

There's other white stuff called sand and so I like the other one.

Yeah, that's awesome.

That's so good.

So you, you've written 101 books which we will post the link for everybody to be able to go look up your books.

But I am a big fan of God's generals.

I have read quite a few of them when I went to Bible college.

So they're amazing.

You learn so much, you see into the lives of all of these generals of faith.

What got you started into that?

I'm so curious to know.

It was my second encounter I had with the Lord.

You know, there's.

I was raised in a Christian family, so I jokingly say I was born, born again.

So I do remember the day I accepted Christ as a kid.

But I grew up with God.

Bible prayer church.

Yeah.

So I, that's part of my life.

Yeah.

But the second encounter I had was when I was 12 years old and I had a vision or saw the Lord walk through the front door of my house and he said to me, study the lives of my generals.

Know why they succeeded and why some failed.

Yeah, they will come a generation who will want to know.

And he said a few more things and then left.

Well, that's how it started.

And so I begin reading books.

We didn't have Internet, we had TV with three channels.

Right.

Back in the day.

Now we have what, 500 channels on our phone.

Yeah.

And so we were back in the day when there was no Internet.

So we had to go to libraries and you get books and we had a small little library in the house and I began to read biographies of preachers.

Now I didn't like anything he said to me, to be very honest, because I didn't want to study preachers.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because at that time my point of reference was Pentecostal preachers.

They were kind of overweight, bald headed and spit when they preached.

I'm exaggerating, but that was kind of the gist.

You know, I studied sports people or rich people, something.

But I, I did it.

And the first day I read the first chapter and a half of this book, a consuming desire came to read books and talk to old people.

I know it Sounds crazy, but that's what happened.

Very rare.

That's what I begin to read books.

They say I've read around 14,000 now, so that they estimate.

My librarian estimated all the books.

So.

Yeah, it's a lot of books.

Yeah.

And now some were small.

I want that, you know.

But I also read the big books with no pictures in them and words, just big.

You had to go get the dictionary to find out what the word meant.

Right.

So it was tough.

There was no Alexa that can help you with this or no Siri could do that.

So they didn't have that in those days.

Library and the.

The dictionary.

Yeah.

And so I began to talk with people because I lived in Tulsa.

Right.

It was a Christian hub.

And so there's a lot of people who had.

Knew the great preachers at the time.

They knew Mr. Wigglesworth.

They knew John G. Lake, they knew Sister McPherson.

They.

I actually got to talk to an older man, African American man that was a child at Azusa street, because they were still alive in that time period when I was a teenager.

Yeah, they were.

Some of the folks were died just a few years after I met them, but I would meet them and see the eyewitnesses of some of the things that we talk about today.

And so that's how I began.

And then I did my first lecture at a seminary at 15.

Yeah.

And so it began to explode.

And then I never thought it would become what it's become.

I just didn't know.

I wrote the first book there called God's Children, the blue one.

And it exploded.

Yeah.

And then they all thought I was smarter than I was, you know, so, you know, when you write a book, you think you're really smart.

Yeah.

But you might be just a little bit more than that, but not a whole lot sometimes.

But it exploded.

And I realized I was at Reinhardt.

Bunkie was at a minister's meeting in Tulsa, and I was there.

And we had met just briefly because his son was coming to oru.

Okay.

And I met his son when I was over in Africa doing missions when I was 16.

And he was telling a story, and he was messing the story up, and he knew it.

And he called me out of the crowd of, like, four or five thousand preachers, and I'm like, no teenager, late teens.

He said, I'm messing this story up, aren't I?

Said, yes.

Yeah.

Would you fix it, please?

So he had me tell the story.

Yeah.

And then I was.

You know, there was Brother Roberts.

There was Brother.

They're all over there.

Yeah.

And I'm like this little kid.

And I was gonna go back to my seat.

Don't sit in my seat between Oral and Brother Hagin.

So that was really.

And that was one of the moments I thought this is more than just knowing history.

Yep.

Yeah.

And I begin to realize it was something significant for our time and that the generation that he told me was coming had begun to happen now.

Today.

It's really big.

Yes.

And so that's kind of how it happened to me.

Wow.

And so I've read books and collected things.

And then I. I'm that guy out of 7 billion people, he chose me to do this.

And so I'm that guy that is supposed to do this.

And.

And I like it.

That's awesome.

And I enjoy it.

And I. I welcome the title historian.

Yes.

But, you know, usually they think historians are old or dead.

So when I come to the door, I'm 59.

I'll be 60 in February.

Okay.

So I.

That.

That number bothers me that 60 should not be this close to me.

But so.

But they usually think you're a lot older and.

Or, you know, but it's a whole different.

It's a.

It's a.

It's a calling.

It's an anointing.

Yes.

To articulate what God did to who he did it through, how they made it or they made a mistake.

What was the mistake?

Because you can look at a person's mistake without being judgmental.

And when you read the journalist books or hear myself.

I tell you everything.

Because it's the facts.

But you'll still, like, at the end of the story, if somebody did something wrong, you'll still like them at the end.

Because I like them.

If all these guys are realized, I'd be a man on the front row putting money in their bucket.

I'm for them.

So.

But they made mistakes.

Everybody great has done something stupid.

Right?

Right.

Sometimes twice.

So, you know, there's somebody always joking.

Like I said today in chapel, I say, you know, there are somebody in history weirder than you that made it.

That's true.

And there's somebody in history that was stranger than your children right now going through their trials.

Just keep going.

And so when you know Bible stories, you know history stories, you can encourage yourself.

Like, what's not as bad as that guy?

You know?

So I didn't do what she did.

But we can learn from their mistakes.

That's what the Bible does.

Especially the Old Testament does a lot more details of the people.

Yeah.

And.

And King David died the greatest king in Israel, but in one chapter, really bad chapter, yeah.

Adultery, murder, lying, and he still dies, the great king of Israel.

So that gives us hope that God will give you a second chance.

And I always say this to people and myself, learn the lessons of your mistakes.

Forget the feelings.

Just take the principle with you.

Because sometimes it's the feelings, it's the.

It's the pain, it's the shame, the guilt.

Just take the lesson.

That's right.

And forget all the other stuff and go.

And a lot of times people take the wrong thing, they remind themselves of the feeling.

They feel guilty, they feel ashamed.

Those are real.

Yes, but you go to Christ and you walk through that and they become irrelevant.

So you learn the lesson so you don't repeat it again.

That's so good.

So I'm so curious to know, along with the.

God's generals, if you could sit down today with any of them, knowing what you do now, of studying their lives, their faith, their.

Their successes, their failures, who.

Who would you sit down with and what would you ask them?

There'd be two I would do.

Yeah.

And I mean, sir, I would talk with Martin Luther, the.

The great German reformer.

Okay.

And I would talk to the Salvation army founders, William and Catherine Booth.

Okay.

And none of them were Pentecostal.

I'm a Pentecostal.

But those two, I like them all, but those are two I'd like to sit down and talk to.

I'd like to ask Luther, how did you change the world on a half a verse?

You know, the.

Just Live by Faith was the verse in Revelation that changed the whole world.

And it's in Romans 1, it's a little bit.

And he changed the whole world.

And we're still in the effects of what he did by faith with that revelation.

So good.

Cause it was more than a revival.

He led a reformation of thought.

That's right.

Reformation of how we did society, the Western civilization is built on what Luther did.

Not everything, but a lot of what he did helped make the foundation for the society, the nations, the church.

He did not really want to leave the Catholic Church.

He wanted to reform it, to bring it back to the original intent.

There was so much at that time in the Catholic Church that it demanded a radical confrontation and change.

Of course, they didn't welcome the change.

And there was the first great split, we call it, and the Protestants were born.

The word Protestant that we are, if you're not a Catholic, you're a Protestant.

It means you're a Protestant.

1.

The problem with The Protestants today, they don't protest nothing.

They don't protest the devil, they don't protest sin.

So can we get some of our Protestant blood back and protest the wrong stuff and support the good stuff?

But I'd like to talk with Luther.

How was it when you stood up and the whole world was on your shoulders when you went on trial?

See, back then, we don't realize, if you didn't believe the way they told you believe, you could be martyred for that and go on trial and be put in prison.

So Luther, when he was on trial, he asked for one more night to consider his answer.

On the first day of the trial, they guard him in because of what he'd written, what he said, and the.

It was a religious, governmental trial, like O.J.

simpson.

All right, now, please take me right on that to show you the magnitude of the trial.

It wasn't just a little trial.

It was like the O.J.

simpson trouble.

The whole world knew about it.

They knew the characters, they knew what it was about.

The Catholic lawyers had come.

The Jewish.

The Jewish.

The German hierarchy was there, and it was a big deal.

We peasants were outside listening through the window, and it was a big deal.

And they laid his.

His writings at that time and asked him, have you written this?

And he said, those are my writings.

And they asked him to recant.

Instead of saying no, like I thought he would.

He asked for 24 hours.

And he writes and says, I went to my room in the castle there where the trial was, and he fought with Lucifer.

He says it was a Lucifer.

Interesting.

And I thought, now that's a big devil.

Yeah, that's the top one.

That's not his little friends.

That's him.

And I thought.

I thought that might be a little.

I thought about if I was Lucifer.

Yeah.

And I was about to lose my hold, I would show up myself, too.

But he said he fought with him through most of the night and won and went to bed.

Wow.

Wow.

Can you tell me about that?

There's things about that, you know, that would be very intriguing to me.

And then how he.

How he did what he did, and he got married and had children and some fun things.

Well, I can go on all day long, but it's a lot of fun with him.

Like the world of bowling.

Yeah.

A lot of the things that came from Martin Luther's backyard because he would play the bowling thing with his kids.

When you're that famous, whatever you do, and how you Cut your hair.

They always copy you, you know.

Yes.

And so they had these little pins they put up and they'd throw the ball and play with his kids.

And some of the rules that we call bowling came from Martin Luther's backyard.

Oh wow.

And stuff like that.

And.

But there's.

That would be one.

And then the Salvation Army.

I would join the army with the original founders.

They were phenomenal.

They combined social justice and the gospel correctly.

That's why the evangelicals in the full gospel like.

But don't know how to put them because they did things that we don't do with social justice.

Right.

And he was, him and his wife was tremendous.

And they, they.

How do I say this?

They got kicked out of the Methodist church.

I mean it's a great story.

They were Methodist because they were bringing the wrong kind of people right to the church.

And they, he was their regional evangelist and they kind of brought him on a church trust that you quit doing this because you're.

We wanted to grow the church with your upper crust, wealthy, educated.

And they were bringing the hookers and the low caste people that needed Jesus too.

Yeah.

And in those churches you had your row, you know, you had the Smith's row and then you had the, you know, the Clarks row and you had the, you know, the Booth row.

Yeah.

And that's how church was now.

They raised money, you pay for your pew and he'd bring, he'd bring all those people and they didn't, they weren't churched.

So they'd be drinking in their, the bottle or the ladies and say, say that again, I don't understand.

And they interrupt the whole service.

Wow.

So when they told him not to bring any one of those people back, they, his wife said no for him.

And so they were kicked out and they went across to bad part of London and walk into a tent meeting and the Salvation army started because the guy's trying to do the timing, didn't know what to do.

And he did.

Yeah.

And he took the tent meeting and it birthed.

I can go all day.

I don't know how much time I've had.

She was great.

I used to preach their sermons when I was younger.

Yeah.

Okay.

As a young preacher, you don't know what to preach.

Find a dead man.

Sermons that didn't break.

Preacher preachers, they'll think you're full of revelation and you'll know it's 100 year old sermon.

But I used to preach William and Catherine Booth sermons, but I didn't know what to preach.

I just changed and put my modern story where they would give us story.

But I use their words and people.

Wow.

You're amazing.

I thought.

Thank you.

You don't know it's Brother Booth years ago.

But one of the things I was like, they say we.

We go too fast.

They were being accused of working hard and.

And they should slow down.

You know, it's one of the tactics.

And he goes, well, as long as there's women crying because their husband is gone, I will fight.

As long as children are hungry and there's no milk in their belly, I'll fight.

As long as men keep going out of jail, I'll fight.

Why should I?

I mean, he just.

Wonderful sermons.

Yeah.

So I like them now.

I. I would like to go back and I saw Kathryn Kuhlman.

Yeah.

Wow.

And met her as a little boy.

I would like to go back and talk to her as an adult man today.

Because when you're a child and, you know, I remember and I The feeling all the stuff that happened in the cool morning.

But I would like to be an older adult, a little more thorough in the word, and be able to talk with her and ask her different questions.

She's my favorite because I saw more of God activity in her service than I had in anybody else so far in my life.

And I've been around all of them.

I mean, I've known all of them in the States, around the world, and there's some tremendous people.

But that lady had a touch of God I've not seen on anybody else yet.

I hope it'll come on hundreds of people.

But her service would go three or four hours.

Wow.

And as a kid, you'd even go to the bathroom because you know how kids are.

You get bored.

You wanted to go to the bathroom.

You didn't.

And when she quit, you got mad.

Why'd she quit?

Because it was so wonderful, even for me as a child, and letting on the adults who understood it more.

And I loved those childhood memories of Ms. Kuhlman.

She was the greatest preacher I've seen so far in my life.

Wow.

Do you remember what those services.

What you saw?

I can still hear and see her.

If you talk to been in Kathryn Kuhlman.

So most of them can.

Can tell you it's vivid, right?

It was very vivid.

I remember coming out on stage in the white dress and the crowd clapping like a star came out.

Yeah.

You know, there was those who clapped and some whistle.

Because in her crowd, you didn't just have Christians, you had non Christian.

Because she was on tv and she was so eccentric to most people.

Because she talked funny.

Right.

And she talked funny.

Not because she, you know, made it up.

Was when she was a little girl, she.

She had a stammering, a stuttering a little bit with her.

With her speech.

And her mother made her speak everything very distinctly.

So the way she would talk.

Very distinct way of saying things.

Yeah.

That's not made up or that's not the anointing.

That's her.

That her mother told us to control that stammering.

But it was the perfect glory storm.

He had the white dress, the funny talk, the music and the presence and the thousands of people.

It just.

It was a perfect storm for her.

And people were mesmerized by her manner and her speech.

But that was the way she was even as a young girl.

And she talked.

I don't remember what she talked a lot about, but I remember in her services, the ground floor, the first 10, 15 rows we normal see.

And behind that would be hundreds, three, four, 500 wheelchair people.

And we sat in one service right above where you could look down on it, which is perfect.

And I saw twice.

And I'm going to use.

It's hard sometimes to use words to explain spiritual things.

Yeah.

You do your best.

And it's still.

Because if you keep trying to explain, it gets weird.

You just have to stop and let the Lord.

Here's all I know how to say it.

And then Lord, give him the right picture.

Because I used to try to explain that it gets weirder and said like, I didn't stop and just.

I don't know how to say it.

You should just been there.

But there is.

She had three gifts that God used her in real strong.

The word of knowledge, where she could call things out very accurately in the auditorium.

And she had the working of miracles and the gifts of healing.

Now, I do not know how that woman got those two gifts.

Right.

Two power gifts that flowed consistently in her life.

Right.

And you could see.

I saw it go twice.

The wheelchair section.

Wow.

And by the end of that service, there was probably 50 to 60 people out of wheelchairs.

Now there was four to 500 people.

Wow.

But 16, that's more than I've ever seen in combining Kenneth Hagin and Oral Roberts together.

I mean, not.

Nothing against those guys.

I love them.

But in her meetings, it was on a.

It was on a percentage scale.

And in her meeting, she didn't.

She would not pray for you after you were healed.

And she wanted to make sure that you knew that Jesus healed you and not hurt.

Right.

So even though we don't always under.

Because you just at the service.

But everything was done with intentional purpose.

Yes.

She's saying hymns, not the choruses.

That was very popular in those days because most of the people would know the hymns.

Right.

And she wanted everybody to be able to participate or have a memory that would connect them to the Lord.

And when she was in a believer's meeting, she was like in a conference.

Like, if she was like, she would come to Brother Copeland's meeting.

Well, she'd be wild Pentecostal.

Yeah.

They were holy.

Laughter falling down.

But in her miracle service, she didn't do that.

That the miracle service was the service.

She wanted everybody to come to Jesus and she would sing songs that they knew and did not allow a lot of what we call tongue or the gifts to go beyond.

Like the utterance gifts.

Yeah.

Because some folks didn't understand it'd be strange to them.

Right.

For her, the healings were for two benefits.

The person getting healed.

Yeah.

And it was the dinner bell to come to salvation.

When you sit there for two hours and then it's kept getting healed.

I mean, like.

Yeah.

Not something you can't see.

You can see this stuff and then you.

You want to find Jesus.

Yeah.

And that's the way she did it.

And she was wonderful.

She.

She is the gold standard today of the healing ministry.

I think everybody in the healing ministry should follow a lot of her.

Most.

I said all of her motives were very pure and her manner in which she did it.

I know we operate differently, but she made sure that she.

There was no hidden agendas or little things that were questionable.

She did everything she could to be open.

And because she goes.

God needs no defense.

Yeah.

No defense.

Just do everything honest in the light.

Yeah.

It all works.

That's right.

So.

But I can talk for hours.

Is there something because.

Yes, we talk about revivals in history, but is there like a modern day revival happening now?

Well, you have regional touches of revival in the world.

Yes.

Most of the revivals that you and I would be familiar with or been a part of.

I don't know how long you've been a Pentecostal or Christian.

I've been a part of three different moves, national moves that, you know, there was the charismatic move that came when I was A child, when Ms. Kuhlman was like one of the leaders of it.

So I remember that.

Then the Word of Faith revival, which is the ministry of Brother Copeland, Brother Hagin, that exploded in the 80s and throughout the 90s as the dominant thing.

Then the prophetic movement came and now we're in something a little different.

But it's a story.

So to answer the question first, there are revival regions that are happening.

Not a lot.

I was waiting for the national wave because I was used to going from.

And it wasn't coming.

I'm thinking, what's going on?

Because all the revival is there.

I thought, where is it?

But I begin to see it.

I begin to see it regionally.

So right now you have hot spots.

You've got like Roddy Howard Brown in Tampa have a hot spot.

You've got Dawsonville, North Georgia revival with the baptism revival there with Todd Smith.

That's happening.

You've got Fresh Start out in Arizona, and there's probably others I don't know that is happening.

But there's something bigger that we have to say because we're not in a time of revival.

We're in a time of reformation.

And that's a new word for most of us.

Go into that, please.

Yeah.

In America and Canada, we've been the nations of revival.

So it's hundreds of years ago.

But in their culture, in their history, there's a reformation.

That's.

We're in our first one.

Yeah.

Revival is when God goes in and revives his people.

The revival means you had to first be alive to need to be revived.

So it's a revival.

So that's what we're used to.

But then reformation is something where God takes a living church or living people and himself and goes into society.

Right.

To confront the pillars of societal.

Now, in.

In the Christian books of revival, they talk about social ills.

They would talk about going and fixing the social problems with corruption in government or drunkenness.

And then that's what they talked about.

Now we're using a different language, but the same kind of thrust.

We talked today about what makes up society.

We call them the seven mountains, the seven pillars of society.

And there could be more than seven some, you know, so there's like the.

The mountain or the pillar of money, family, education, media, that makes up our culture in every land.

And so God wants to take his people into those things to bring them back to the original intent that he created them.

Like God created government.

Devil didn't do that.

That's right.

Man did not.

The Old Testament, God tells Moses how to set up government.

Right.

And the Western democracies, our countries and many of the Europeans were Christian Based.

Yes.

And so we, we follow those rules.

And so we need to go into these mountains and to begin to bring back God's original intent.

Now, the problem is we're not used to the type of warfare and come back or whatever word you want to use.

Yeah, it's a conflict.

And it's a conflict between, I'll say like this, between God and Lucifer, light and darkness, good and evil, common sense and stupidity.

That's what's raging right now.

And so we've been absent from most of these places in society.

There's been a few things at times that have happened, but not a consistent presence.

So we're showing up now like this family mountain has to come back to the traditional way God.

Well, you've been gone for two generations and you think you're going to tell us what to do.

Yeah, that's reality.

But we do have a right to be there and to speak and bring back things the way God intended them to be and to say no.

The original plan of man and woman bringing forth children, that's a family.

That's God's original intent.

That's right.

And not all this other stuff we got and put value back on the original intent.

The same for government, the same for education.

Medical is another mountain.

Medicine and health.

And so we're seeing that happening.

For the last 10, 15 years or so, Christians have been learning that they're called to go into these spheres of influence.

Like I feel called to be a minister.

I feel that God has told me to do that as my choice of career or my calling.

And there's an anointing for it.

And we were discovering there are people who are anointed to go to the family mounted or the educational mountain.

The same way that I feel called to do what I do, or brother Copeland does what he does.

They are called with a breakthrough anointing, with the strategy, with the word for those spheres.

And that's what's happening.

That's the Reformation now.

Reformation.

We have to get used to the uncomfortableness.

Revival has resistance and persecution.

It's a different flavor, a different kind, and it's lighter than reformation.

Okay.

And so we are being called like right now in, in America.

I'm American.

Someone use that.

All right, You Canadians understand this quite well.

And.

But the governmental mountain.

Yeah.

You know, it's probably the most explosive one and the one that everybody is affected with at the moment.

Yes.

And we got an unusual president.

Mr. Trump always joined the Orange Man.

So I would not have picked Donald Trump.

That's Right.

At all.

He did not fit my criteria, my preference, and even so, my spiritual.

I thought, well, maybe, you know, he's not.

He's not like us in the sense of being raised in the church.

But I began to see that even though there was things that I prefer different or wasn't my way of manner, God was with this man.

And there was things that was happening.

I've never seen happen.

Right.

That I heard about prophetically when I was a kid.

Wow.

As a little boy.

There's one that comes to mind.

A little boy.

Yeah.

At a Pentecostal church there in Oklahoma.

In Tulsa Evangelistic Temple.

The one service we had a prophetic word.

We didn't have a lot of them in those days.

So you had one was a big deal.

Right.

Today we have five prophecies every 10 minutes.

Yeah.

So thank God we know how to flow.

But back then when you had one, and it really was a probably more tongues interpretation, but anything like that was a big deal.

And they said this guy stood up and he.

And he had a vision and he said, I saw the President in the Oval Office with preachers praying for people like, we pray here in the church with their hands on it.

And he goes.

And he likes it.

Now, this is back in the.

In the 70s.

Wow.

And then he said, I heard singing from the offices in the White House and throughout the government.

Songs we sing here were being sung there.

Interesting.

Well, we were all happy and thrilled.

But here's what we thought.

It would be my grandchildren that would see it.

That's how we thought.

It'll happen.

But it'll be so far from now, folks.

Now, we had some good presidents, but I saw one picture from the first presidency, him in the Oval Office at the Resolute with his head bowed and all the hands.

And some of those were my friends doing it.

And they were speaking in tongues and prophesied.

And he took it.

He liked it.

And now we know we got, you know, the faith office and they have worship sessions up there.

Oh.

You know, that prophecy I heard as a kid came to pass.

Wow.

And so as much as we go into these things at the moment, we're going to have to be able to sort of.

Yes.

Our preference from.

All right.

I wouldn't have picked Mr. Trump or I wouldn't have picked so and so.

But there is a God factor here.

Yeah.

And I'm going to side him with that over my preference over my.

Well, I wish he did.

No, just go with the God factor and let it be.

He's not going to be.

Whoever it is.

And the thing I want to say to everybody.

Yeah.

When Trump's out of office, this is not over.

Right.

I think some of the things.

As soon as Trump's gone, this.

No, no.

It began with Trump and does not end with Trump.

This is a reformation.

That's good.

And I always would say, I don't know who's coming next.

It might be wilder than Mr. Trump.

I don't know.

So you might want to be.

You never know.

Enjoy.

I was.

Buy some popcorn, enjoy the show.

Because I always say this.

You also.

It's your fault.

You prayed this in.

We all been praying, our parents and grandparents for generations.

God help Canada, Help America, helped Britain.

And he heard us and he's coming to help us.

But it's not.

It's not what we thought.

It's a reformation.

That's right.

It's a little different now.

Revival is in reformation, but Reformation is not in revival.

That's why a lot of people are fitting the anointing.

But it's not something they're quite used to because.

No, it's Lord, but what is this?

Yeah, it's a reformation.

It's a little different.

And there's conflict.

And that's why you have today in my country.

I think it's here some, but it's really obvious in America, the division.

And there's going to be a moment of division in the sense of right and wrong.

And there are some Christians and some people that are on the wrong side of right and wrong and they're going to wake up and what humans normally do is they fuss at those who are opposing them because they cannot be wrong.

Most people fight for their position.

It's human disposition.

And we usually fight with words and we call you names and the names they use, either you're a Nazi, you're a racist.

I mean, I.

Who knows what the next word is going to be?

The word racist is dying out because it doesn't sting no more.

So now we're Nazis.

I don't know what the next one would be.

Fascist Nazis.

I'm sure there's another word coming.

So we're going to have to know how to not let words affect us, but keep standing.

And in a reformation or a cultural situation, silence means you agree with the dark side.

So you have to speak up and you have to say something and give your position.

Now, you're not going to argue to argue sake.

But like, when I get up to speak, there's an anointing to get up and Speak.

There's an on that comes on people to say things at Christmas or Thanksgiving or in the office or at the courts or on the.

On the boards.

It comes on you like.

I know.

I can feel it.

When I get up to speak and teach.

I can feel it.

Yeah.

And it helps me raise my voice, lower my voice, knows even how to gesture.

Sometimes there's an art and it comes on everybody.

Yeah.

And we have to learn how to flow with that.

Yeah.

Everyday Christians have to learn how to flow with that because that's how you speak up.

Yeah.

You'll get an unction.

And sometimes it's.

It's not going to be your personality, but it's gonna be what the Lord needs for that moment to have a breakthrough or to sow a seed.

Yeah.

And there will be reactions, both good and bad.

Yeah.

And so we cannot be afraid of that.

Right.

And just like with the Charlie Kirk assassination.

Yeah.

First off, it was shocking.

I. I did not know.

I'd met him twice in a conference and.

Sharp young man, very friendly, passionate.

When he spoke, I thought, wow, what a great guy.

And.

But they killed him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They didn't maim him.

They shot him dead.

And he spoke up for truth.

Yeah.

He would.

Please go watch him on YouTube.

Yes.

Because you have to do the.

It's the ideal conversation.

It's not just, I'm right, you're wrong.

It's the discussion.

Theologically.

Every mouth must have.

Has a language and you got to know how to talk it.

Yes.

Excuse me.

And so he was great at it.

Yes, he was.

I mean, he was.

I thought I would know how to answer.

I'd get mad.

I. I don't have the grace yet, so I need some.

I need some sh.

Kirk anointing and understanding.

But what a.

What a moment.

What the enemy really thought would quiet and scare us.

Right.

Empowering both of us, not just in America, but in Canada, in Britain, all over the world.

I was like, shocked.

Yeah.

Now I knew he was influential, but I didn't know that.

But it also magnified.

But this is what Jesus does.

He.

When he gets involved, he takes a bad thing and makes something great come out of it.

And what the devil tried to do, shutting down this young man.

He had 100 million people on TV hear the gospel.

I never heard from our government.

I mean, exactly.

Okay, folks, you don't have to like.

But these guys got up there and they.

I mean, Marc Rubio could be an evangelist.

Yes.

I thought Jesus was born and he died and rose and he's coming.

I thought, and you're the Secretary of State.

I'm like, wow.

So we get answers to our prayers in America.

God give us righteous people.

We got them now.

I know the orange man is the issue, but overlook his orangeness and just see the God part and enjoy the moment.

Because one day our great grandchildren said, what was it like to be alive during the Trump era or during this moment?

We talk about revivals of Azula street or person, days over days, we're going to be asked about this moment.

So folks, come on, buy the popcorn, enjoy the show.

You prayed it in and be a part of it.

Find out what mountain you're supposed to be a part of.

Pray and be active.

Just don't pray and do nothing.

You got to pray and be active.

We need both feet.

You got the foot of prayer, the foot of doing something, the corresponding action.

We do faith talk and we got to do that in society.

And.

And it's like missionaries to Africa, to India are missionaries to government, missionaries to the education.

They are anointed and called to that.

And so we have to recognize they're not being fixated in a wrong way.

They're.

They're called to those places for the season.

Like I'm called to go to teach around the.

They're called to go in that mountain and they're going to think and talk that mountain.

Like, Lance Walnut is our good friend.

Yes.

He.

He teaches us, but he's called to the government mountain.

Yes.

And I actually listened to him to interpret everything like, okay, I even texted like, what does this mean?

Or is this true?

And because that's his mountain, he has a revelation.

It's anointing to understand.

And I don't break through.

Listen to these guys.

You don't have to agree with everything, but most of it you will.

There's always will be some part you're not going to.

It's okay.

Yeah.

Just don't have to be a division part.

But that's what's happening today.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so I want all of us revival people to recognize there's something bigger and it's something that we have not had a history of in our land.

That's right.

Yeah.

This is our first one.

The Great North American Reformation.

The American.

The Canadian Reformation.

You all need a new government up here.

You need an orange man somehow to show your government or an orange one, whatever it is, whoever's supposed to be.

And I do realize too, that there's a different governmental system, parliamentary system versus what we.

So there is some Difference in how things are done.

And it may take a little different amount of time or a different way to do certain things.

But I, I think there are people that, on the national and provincial and even down local that they're called to this and so please show up.

Yes.

And when they show up, please, Christians, don't shoot them.

Yeah.

Because they don't fit your preference.

Discern it.

That's right.

And enjoy the show.

Yeah.

If I can unpack it a little bit, then you're saying that revival is maybe in a different word, an awakening, like a spiritual awakening in, in a region.

But Reformation is something that begins to shift culture.

Right.

Something that, where people thought something was, where there was confusion, where they thought something that was wrong was right.

And, and, and then culture begins to shift around the biblical principles and ideas through our missionary status of being inside of these seven pillars, seven mountains where we're missionaries.

Not a, and not in a geological point of a different country or state.

But you're a cultural one.

But a cultural one.

See, Reformation has a longer lasting effect than revival.

I know that that hurts some people because we've all know revival, but revivals have not changed large amounts of society.

They change hearts and they change smaller amounts of cities.

You have the Welsh revival that affected that nation for a few years, then it faded.

But, but Luther's Reformation is still standing.

Yeah.

Right.

We still at the foundation of something that is still work.

We built on top of it.

Now.

Revival's not bad.

I love, I'm the revival historian guy.

Okay.

I'm the guy that taught most of you the revival.

And so I'm not, I just want, it's different.

Yeah, yeah.

And it functions different and sort of feel different.

And so I don't want us to be, or like I don't understand most of it when I teach on it now.

Oh, they have language now to that feeling or what's going on.

It explains some people's focus on certain things and that the audience is with government or they're always just thinking they're called to that mountain.

Yeah.

Right.

So, yeah, that's good.

That's really, really good.

What would be coming back to the God's generals?

I'm just so curious to know because I've read all the books and I, I, I love them.

If you could speak into this generation now that is rising up and, and you who have studied the God's generals, what would be one of the biggest lessons that you would want this generation to know?

What would you say to them?

Number one, you don't have to wait till your middle age to start.

A lot of the generals were teenage preachers when they began, really.

Right.

And sometimes we assume you have to wait so long.

And that's not always true.

It's not historically true.

Right, right, right.

And so education is not required, it's beneficial.

Yeah.

But there's different ways to educate yourself, Right?

There is.

You can go to school because you're too lazy to do it yourself.

That's what school is.

You go to college, you go to school to be forced into a mechanism of discipline to learn and retain.

Or you can be.

Have a self discipline like Charlie Kirk.

Yeah.

There are those who were able to read and do their own self and they become educated and become.

He was the top of his.

Of his particular thing.

Yeah.

And so there's that kind of thing.

Maybe one, I would say to learn how to live every season of your life to the first where you change.

Be done being single before you get married, being happily married before you have babies.

It's good advice because we rush things so fast and that we don't feel fulfilled.

Right.

I've lived my life and I would encourage people.

It still sounds really theological, but it's practical, is don't get married until you're done being single.

Like what you can do as a single man or woman, you cannot do when you're married.

Right.

And there's things you can do as a couple you can't do when you have children.

So make sure that all those seasons are coming so you don't have this.

I wish I would have done it.

Go ahead and do this and live out those seasons.

And when it comes to marriage, be just a little slow to make sure.

Because one of the great problems in ministers lives is they have married the wrong person for where they end up being called to.

Right.

And so I always say, don't kiss too much until, you know.

Because your third kissing session, you can't hear Jesus, you can't hear mom, you can't hear pastor.

Cause you're already in there.

And then you wake up.

And if you have to, if it does not the right, we got all that drama.

So slow down just a little bit.

Right.

Make sure.

And then once, you know, don't stop kissing.

Stay kissing for the rest of your life, everybody.

And so that would be there.

And I would say another thing is find a spiritual parent that is that it's good for you to have that you can learn and talk to.

Yes.

That was very good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Other ones enjoy Your life.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Have fun while you do it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What would you say to the older generation?

Don't die until you're dead.

How's that for a comment?

That's a grandma comment.

She used to try, don't die until you're dead.

To some people still have died for purpose.

And they had another 10 years, 20 years of their life.

Yeah.

And so the older generation, be the Caleb among the Joshuas.

This generation, in our generation, we went to the elder.

I went to Lester Sumral.

I went to know Brother Roberts.

I went, too.

And I got to go and actually begin to be friends with them.

I was very honored that way.

But I went.

I was just happy to be in the crowd or happy to be in the room, at the table while we're all eating.

Right.

Just to listen.

I didn't have to say anything.

Yes.

Well, this younger generation, at least the ones we're dealing with at the moment, they don't come to you.

All right.

So that's a little bit of a bother to me and to us, because that's what we did.

Yeah.

And I woke up.

I thought, well, okay, we consider him.

Fuss about this or get up and go to them.

Yeah.

So there are ways that we think should be done, but it might not being done.

This is one of them.

So I decided, well, all right, I'm going to go to you because I'm not going to be left out.

And I show up sometimes in meetings, scare them, because I walk through the door and, you know, they know me.

They read me and that.

Why are you here?

I said, well, I wanted to meet you.

Yeah.

And I want to hear you preach because I heard your name.

Yeah.

And I become friends.

So some of us may have to be an older and even older than I say, all right, here's the way it is.

And maybe it shouldn't be that way, but it's the way it is.

And go do what need to be.

Go to the meeting now.

I know.

No, it's too loud.

Put some things in your ears.

All right.

I know the song does not make any sense to you.

All right.

Some of these things.

But we had music when we were young that was our generation's music that helped us connect with God.

Right.

And when we still sing the older songs, it does that.

They're creating that.

So let them have their moment.

And like, they had the Zongo.

He loves you like a hurricane.

I thought, have you been in a hurricane?

You know, they have all these songs, no sense.

And for us, it's like.

But they're getting it, so praise the Lord.

So, you know, we're going to have to extend ourself and walk with them if we're going to be a part of it.

And they need us and we need them.

That's right.

And so please the older generation, don't be offended by the music or the dress or you have to learn their language because we used to have revelation, now we get a download.

Yes.

Now we're soaking.

Instead of being under the spirit, there's a whole different language.

Yeah, yeah.

And so you have to learn the language.

And so if our older generation wants to be a part, we're going to have to learn how to do some of this and learn the language because for whatever reason they're naturally or in general, they're not coming to us.

Like we went to our fathers and mothers.

And so that's what I would tell them and enjoy the difference, enjoy the cultural difference, the age difference.

And My grandmother was 92 when she died.

And she said the reason why I have not died earlier, because I stayed around young people.

She goes, she would come to my church.

It was the grandma with a couple thousand people had a school like you guys do here, and she come to Bible school every day.

She was.

Everybody loved her little white hair, little child, little grandma.

And, and she said there's why I come is because I like the word, but I also like the life.

Oh yeah.

Of the young people.

And it gets off on me and it keeps me alive.

And I thank of you needed some new friends.

Yes.

You got all those old people.

And then we go to more funerals than we do weddings and baby dedication.

So we got to mix that up a little bit, folks.

And, and I know culturally your age group's your age group and they know your bands, they know your music.

They can know the, the commercials, they know the presidential jokes of your time.

They know the, the customs of the church.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But you know, let's be relevant and let's not die until we're dead.

And that's what I would tell them.

Them.

That's good advice.

Remember how weird you were when you found Jesus too.

You just been saved for 40 years now, whatever.

So you've been refined to Christianese and Christian culture.

But remember what you were like.

Give grace to and enjoy it.

Enjoy the, the, the, all the differences.

That's so good.

Well, as, as we, as we close up this podcast, would you pray for our partners and friends and those that are listening right now?

Whatever you want to Pray if you could pray for them.

Father.

We pray today for every one of our partners in this ministry, everyone that happened just to come by the podcast.

And I ask that you touch them not just for the healing of their body, but for the regeneration of their mind and their spirit.

To be able to fit in what you're doing today.

Give to them an understanding of divine fitting, how they fit and their place in the kingdom.

Every minister, every grace and blend the generations together.

Together.

Bring the ethnic groups together.

Let us be one body as an example to the earth.

And I pray for you that every gift in you comes alive in Jesus name.

Let every anointing, even the ones that you thought you've lost, you haven't lost them.

We stir them up today and we draw on them and say, come forth into the earth and move again in Jesus name.

And Father, help us to put down our preferences and obey the divine discernment of our time and let us be a part of what you're doing.

We don't want to be a fan that watches the the happening.

We want to be a player on the field of revival and reformation.

Yes.

Move every one of us into a place of doing something.

We pray.

Yes.

In Jesus name.

Amen and amen.

Thank you for having me.

Enjoyed it.

Thank you so much for being here and for sharing, sharing all of your wisdom.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think once you have a couple thousand stories of history and what's worked and what hasn't, I think it turns into wisdom.

I'll take that.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for being here.

I enjoyed it.

Thank you.

Hi, this is Angela from Langley, bc.

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