What does it really mean to invest in yourself?

In this episode of Psychologically Speaking, Leila is joined by marketing strategist and entrepreneur Niki Hutchison, founder of Enjoy Marketing®. With more than 25 years in marketing strategy and two six-figure businesses behind her, Niki helps founder-led businesses become known for what they do best.

Together, they explore the psychology behind investing in yourself, taking business risks and building a business that reflects who you are. They discuss why some investments exceed expectations while others don't, how to think about return on investment beyond money, and why the greatest opportunities often come from the people you meet rather than the programme you buy.

The conversation also explores identity, imposter experiences, group belonging and why so many entrepreneurs hesitate to put themselves in the rooms where growth happens. Drawing on Leila's research in social identity alongside Niki's experience helping thousands of business owners grow through strategic marketing, this episode offers a refreshing perspective on confidence, visibility and backing yourself.

Whether you're considering joining a membership, investing in coaching, launching a new offer or simply wondering if you're ready for your next step, this conversation will challenge the way you think about riskand what it really means to invest in yourself.

Make your success inevitable - https://www.nikihutchison.com/

Adventures in Marketing https://www.adventuresinmarketing.uk/

Leila's adult inset day - Sept 15th - sign up here https://psychologicallyspeaking.myflodesk.com/adultinsetday

it's interesting when I hear people talking about whether they've

got what they expected from a program.

Have I always got what I expected from a program?

No, I haven't. Have I always got something?

Yes, I have, because I'm going to make damn sure I have,

because I've invested.

you

time,

energy, resources, money into that program.

So it is always a risk.

I thought it would be a great idea to record a podcast a week into having

a brand new puppy come to live with me.

Nikki was an absolute star during this episode and what you can't hear,

hopefully, if I've got my editing skills up to scratch,

is the absolute chaos my puppy Jasper is causing in the background.

She's ever the professional, so thank you Nikki for dealing with

me and my boisterous puppy.

You know when they have to do that thing where they have to like move around their

bed so many times till they can get comfortable?

That is where we're at right now.

think he's settling. Right, okay.

Welcome to Psychologically Speaking with me,

Leila Ainge. This season.

We are exploring imposter phenomenon through the lens of risk taking,

and we're going to be hearing from women who are no stranger

to navigating risk through their business activities.

The question I want you to sit with this season is do imposter experiences make

us more aware of risk and is that a good or a bad thing?

today to help us with this. I'm joined by Nikki Hutchison founder

of the Enjoy Marketing Agency.

She's passionate about helping online

business owners leave behind amateur marketing and instead leverage

a multi-channel marketing strategy that makes success inevitable.

Every year I get complete FOMO because Nikki is also one of

the founders behind Adventures in Marketing.

a marketing conference that is held in Scotland and so that's a long way from

me in the Midlands and it honestly gets such great reviews

and attracts amazing speakers so hopefully we'll hear a little bit more about that

as well.

I've known Nikki. I want to say about six years now,

and what you need to know is that she does not sit still.

⁓ And I want to let you into a confession because Nikki actually gave

me one of the best bits of feedback when I was a new business owner.

This was six years ago. It started with,

but Leila, how do I work with you?

⁓ It wasn't clear to me or to my clients at the time what I did,

you

who for, and what I was aiming to get.

on with in my business. And that conversation was the start of a longer journey,

exploring what I wanted to do rather than what I thought I could be paid for.

So, Nikki, thanks. I don't even know if you remember that conversation,

but it is obviously with me, so welcome.

~ I'm so pleased and actually we're very good aren't we at asking other people

questions that we probably need to ask ourselves.

So I'm on a bit of that do what you love journey just now as well but

Yeah.

I'm so pleased we had that chat.

I was thrilled when you said that you would come onto the podcast because

we hardly ever get time to chat properly and see each other.

And we were just reflecting offline that actually the last time we caught

up was probably four years ago you've been up to so much stuff.

tell us a little bit about the agency and who you're working with?

Yeah, so it's evolved a lot over the years.

So I started this business simply coaching other founders on how

to use marketing more effectively.

And that's still exactly what I do on the education side of the business.

But I now do it mainly in my membership group programs and masterminds.

~ And then after a few years,

we set up the agency.

During COVID, my husband came on board,

so we both work full time in the agency.

And what we focus on now is done for you launching.

So we are really passionate about launching.

I support many clients to launch.

And people have this fear around launching.

So I just want to clarify that all a launch is.

is a focused marketing campaign for a set period of time to sell one specific thing.

And I hope that that takes the fear out of it a little bit,

Yeah.

but that is what we deliver in the agency.

So in the education side, I can help you,

I can support you in my masterminds,

on my one-to-one programs, in the membership and so on.

I can support you to do your own launches.

If you just want somebody to do it for you,

that's what we do in the agency.

And you know what? think launching is such ⁓ a kind of like a Marmite term

for people as well. It's definitely one of those things that ⁓ I have

sat there and thought, am I somebody who launches things or am I not?

⁓ And as soon as you get into that head space,

you're then talking yourself out of telling people what it is that you do.

Going back to your advice to me is like,

what do you do, Leila? What are you selling right now?

What do people need to know about?

~

But I've really had to have a strong word with myself this year because

I launched something in January,

a Goal sprint, which was a complete experiment.

But the one thing that changed my perspective on it,

I think was just treating it like an experiment and having fun with

it and just going, you know, if this doesn't work,

I can do it again and I can change things

Yeah!

And also, like every single launch is an experiment.

Obviously, we know what works.

We can pretty much guarantee certain results,

but we always want to be stretching it and pushing it further and using new tools.

And even in our most recent launch in our own business,

John created a bunch of AI tools that helped us launch more effectively that

we can now use with clients.

being able to separate yourself from the result and see it as an experiment that

is going to move your business forward in one way or another is a really helpful

way to look at it.

Nikki, I'm going to pause for a minute and I will be back but I'm going

Okay.

to get rid of this dog because he's too noisy.

So Nicky, John is your partner.

Yes, he is my husband's and business partner.

he's always had his own business,

but he came into this business in 2021 and we're now full time working together.

Yeah.

So one of the things that I'm asking everyone who's coming onto

the podcast this season is to talk to me about risk.

people who've had businesses for a long time and you have had businesses,

get used to navigating risk on a daily basis.

Yeah.

But also I think there's something about the way in which

when you get into delivering services.

And you mentioned before that one of the services you deliver is a mastermind.

There's a risk that people take when they buy into services could talk about

the risk that you have as a business owner when you're thinking

of investing in yourself, in your own business.

Mmm.

I see you as somebody who deeply invests in what you do.

I did describe you as someone who doesn't sit still.

what has been risky for you, what things have worked out and perhaps what hasn't.

Yeah, I love this topic because I actually have quite strong feelings on it.

when I had my first, so I started my first business in January 2012,

service delivery began, the planning began the year before.

So I haven't had a job since 2011.

So that in itself is a risk, right?

That the stakes are high, especially now like our entire

family income is generated from this business.

But when I started that first business,

I knew that I needed support. I wanted support.

So I identified a program. It was called Entrepreneurial Spark back then.

It's now called the NatWest or RBS Accelerator,

depending which part of the country you're in.

And it was free, but it was still a risk for me to join because

at that time, it's changed a lot now,

the program.

But at that time you had to really commit to being there.

So I knew that I was going to need to base myself there and it was

a good hours drive from where I was living.

And I was going to need to base my team there.

You had to be there every Wednesday evening for these various workshops

and all that kind of stuff. Now my daughter was really young at that point.

So I wasn't able to commit to that level.

I had to wait for her to

go to school. And then as soon as she started school,

I joined that accelerator and it was free.

So there was no financial risk,

but it was still a huge commitment.

I was asking my team members, we basically changed our whole working

day because it was a very, the journey to get there.

was you did not want to be doing that journey during rush hour.

And we all lived on this one side of town and it was on the other side of town.

So we changed our whole working day to be 7 a.m.

to 3 p.m. instead of 9 till 5.

Wow.

And it suited all of us, luckily,

Yeah.

which was great. But making that big commitment,

not knowing whether this business support program was going to help us or not,

Yeah.

even that time commitment.

felt like a risk and it paid off.

And then ever since joining that free program,

I've always invested in paid programs.

And it's interesting when I hear people talking about whether they've

got what they expected from a program.

Have I always got what I expected from a program?

No, I haven't. Have I always got something?

Yes, I have, because I'm going to make damn sure I have,

because I've invested.

you

time,

energy, resources, money into that program.

So it is always a risk.

But I believe that we can only understand both sides of that risk

by putting ourselves in the shoes of somebody who is taking risks.

Mm-hmm.

And I believe that we don't know it all.

Yeah.

So actually it's a bigger risk.

not to arm ourselves with the knowledge and support that we need to grow than

it is to make that scary investment.

Oh yes. And this is a real paradox,

isn't it? Because I feel like,

you know, half of the messaging we get is,

you know, be confident and, make sure that you're giving seamless,

customer experience to people and you're professional.

But at the same time, you know,

we are all people who are learning how to do things and we're going

to get things wrong and think,

oh, actually I could have done that differently or...

Or maybe we do something less than,

you know, I've definitely launched things or done things and thought,

actually, I could have tried a bit harder there.

And it's inevitable that we're to go through those things.

we're kind of stuck between what ideal looks like and being a beginner.

when you come into spaces with other people where you're learning together,

it makes you a little bit more open to

discussing that and to kind of go and actually maybe I don't know what

I'm doing here or what can I learn or how do I push myself?

it's that push that I always see with you,

which is like, you seem to be really self motivated.

Yeah,

I do not struggle with motivation.

That's not a thing for me. ~ I know I'm lucky.

~ I don't get it. I don't understand it either.

It's just not a thing for me.

Yeah,

I feel like you'd be like one of those people that if I bought

you in the supermarket, your tin would be like,

right, this is going to give you 100 % energy as soon as you crack it open.

love that or maybe one of those like things that pops out you open

you

the can or something pops out like a jack-in-the-box

Yes!

So

your reflections then on when you're working with people who don't have

Mm.

the level of motivation that you do,

how does that work? What have you noticed?

I think the more people that you work with,

the deeper an understanding you have of how different people operate.

you

And I liked what you said about putting yourself

in these rooms where there are people who are learning alongside you.

Mm-hmm.

I think that's really important,

that peer support. Also, just to go back to putting yourself in those rooms.

and that gap between being a beginner and somebody who is experienced,

is the quickest way to close that gap.

Like that's your fast track. That is your shortcut.

Yes.

If you're feeling everybody expects me to know what I'm doing and that I've

got my shit together and you feel like you don't have that,

then investing in being in those rooms where people do have that is...

your route to success. But just to go back to what you were saying about working

with people with different levels of motivation.

Yeah.

~

I'm choosing my words carefully because I don't want to sound arrogant.

I am fortunate to have very high levels of energy and very high levels

of motivation. I also appreciate that that is not the norm for many people

and also whether it's personality,

energy, but there are also very practical reasons that people can't operate

at full pace depending on their personal situation as well.

you

the more people that you work with,

the more people that you come across,

the deeper an understanding you have of that.

And then it's about really

taking that new understanding that you have,

let's say, okay, this person's come in and they don't have,

they're not in the same circumstances as me.

Like I always say, I'm really lucky now.

You I've talked about starting that business when my daughter was tiny.

I'm very lucky now. My kids basically take care of themselves.

No.

I mean, one doesn't even live here anymore.

So yeah,

Wow! Yeah. ~

that is a very different situation from a lot of people who I'm supporting.

~

And it's just about making sure it's the same as marketing.

Marketing is about putting yourself in the shoes of the person who you hope will

buy your thing. It's exactly the same thing when you're supporting somebody

to grow their own business. It's about putting yourself in their shoes,

really making the effort to understand their situation.

Mm-hmm.

What are the things that are holding them back?

What are the

opportunities that they have or they maybe don't have.

And it's about trying to make sure that you come up with a support mechanism that

works alongside any restrictions they might have,

not in spite of, but it's your job to facilitate the outcome for them

Hmm.

in whatever way you need to do that.

I love that and I think there's something that sits there for me then which feels

like it helps us to understand where we get advice from and how

we implement that because I think a lot of the criticism that comes

for maybe the coaching industry and mentoring is you'll often hear people

say you know you want somebody who understands you or somebody's just

a little bit further ahead from you or not too far

And what I'm hearing from you is that actually that's probably

not what that matters. What matters is being able to put yourself in those shoes

is to have that kind of different perspective taking.

But more than that, it's an awareness of where you are as a provider as well.

And that feels really curious to me because that isn't just easy to work with.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. And also accepting that you won't get your like your risks will

not always pay off in the way that you expect.

So you've mentioned this already.

I invest a lot in my business and myself as a result of that.

But it's always business focused and not all of those investments have paid

off in the way that I expected them to.

but I have always got something from them every single time because I make sure

of it. ⁓ So there's one example where I didn't know,

you might know the name for this Leila.

⁓ I didn't know that this was a sales method,

but I, this person, this big name coach had been on my radar.

This is probably back, I don't know,

⁓ five years ago at least.

⁓ And this person had been on my radar.

And I'd kind of thought, maybe I'll work with them one day.

And then I saw them record a video and it was on a specific date that meant

something to them. And they recorded this video in tears.

And they were talking about the grief that they were

wow.

feeling. And immediately I was like,

I kind of went into rescue mode or something.

And that video.

which I now understand is a well-known kind of not amazing sales method,

Mm-hmm. ~

was the thing that prompted me to take action and invest in that person.

Now, it was a significant amount of money and I met

a brilliant group of people in that program,

but we all were let down halfway through that program and this person disappeared

for personal reasons.

didn't deliver really for about three months of the program.

But I still made back my investment

and more because of the people that I met in there.

you

So I met someone who is now one of my really close friends.

And I also met quite a number of clients who,

because we'd got to know each other in this program,

really understood my services and how I could help them and bought from me.

So I did not expect to... A,

I felt conflicted once I learned about that sales method and I thought,

I've really fallen into a trap here.

I felt a bit embarrassed about that.

B, I didn't expect to be kind of ghosted halfway through the program.

Yeah.

But I try not,

and sometimes it's hard, but I try not to fall into victim mode.

Yeah, and I think where I sit with the narratives that I hear about coaching

is that perspective taking. I genuinely think there are people who

are great coaches who start something,

it becomes bigger than them, or they have an ambitious vision that they

are unable to put into operation because they've not got that.

professional or strategic or operational background to be able to make it happen.

And they're on a journey. And unfortunately,

other people, you know, are taking risks alongside their journey

and investing in that journey.

Then you have people who know full well what they're doing because they have watched

a video or they've learned off somebody else how to use

an extractive or unethical sales technique.

that is called psychology or pseudoscience or something.

And I think some of that is on us as purchasers to kind of go,

what am I going in this for? And it comes back to that self-investment.

Mmm.

And I really like the way that you're thinking about,

how do I get something from this?

So some of this is quite passive,

isn't it? It's like, if you want to go into a relationship,

to develop yourself and you think that somebody's going to hand you

a playbook and tell you how to do something,

then you have to kind of ask yourself,

but where's my commitment? Where's my motivation?

Where am I really putting the risk in here?

And I think that's the risk conversation maybe we're not seeing from people.

It's not to say that I agree with any of those techniques.

I really don't, know, multi-level marketing.

Do you be a...

kind of sales pages that make you feel sorry for people,

a like you're, you know, kind of giving money to a donkey who's been abandoned

Mmm.

in a field or whatever. You know,

all of that stuff isn't right and it's not right and it shouldn't happen.

But there is so much agency, isn't there,

that we can take ourselves to say,

how do I navigate these things?

How do I recover? And the name we use psychologically for that is,

you know, resilience. And that is definitely something I...

Hmm.

see with you and how you operate.

Wouldn't it be nice though if we didn't have to be so blooming resilient

all the time?

~

It would be wonderful. And we have to ask ourselves why people do these things.

Ha

so, you know, coaching's a really interesting space for me because I have coached

a lot in my career and I've transitioned out of coaching and I do more research now,

Hmm.

but I still have my group coaching space.

And I am always thinking, you know,

Will people think that they are getting enough from this?

Am I serving up enough value?

And you're just making me think today.

It isn't just about what I deliver,

it is also about what they're going to bring.

And in a true coaching partnership,

it is that contracting that you do at the start,

which is what are you going to bring to the room and the relationship and what

am I going to bring? And that's really transparent

You don't have to be resilient because the idea is that psychological safety

Hmm.

is there. And I think perhaps when we move into a more commercialised model

of coaching or mentoring, perhaps some of that gets lost.

Maybe that's where, you know, we're thinking we have to be more resilient then.

think it's a really great point though about essentially taking responsibility

for your own success and I see that a lot.

So I have a membership. It's currently £39 a month,

so very affordable. ~ And some people will

pay their money every month and not come to calls and,

you know, we offer accountability as well and they just...

sometimes don't respond to the accountability messages and that kind of thing.

And that's up to them. You know,

we're offering something that I know works,

whereas you've got other people who,

there's a great example recently of one member who couldn't make the call,

but in the accountability requests,

we always ask them what they want to be held accountable for that week.

And she said, well, I'm launching.

So I'd really love to be held accountable to hitting my goals.

And Brittany, who's our community manager,

went back and said, ~ if you're launching,

you need to watch the replay of this week's call because Nikki

has talked through exactly what happened in their recent launch and

how they hit their targets and all the rest of it.

So she did. She went back, she watched it,

she implemented everything and she had her most successful launch yet.

for 39 pounds a month having not even been to the call.

Well done her. Well done her because everything was there in front of her,

but she actually took the action.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I want to come back to this idea that we sign up and we pay for things that

we don't engage with. And I want to ask you,

why do you, because you've been running,

I mean, think you started off with Facebook groups,

why do you think people sign up and keep paying that amount each month?

but don't engage.

So a few reasons. The reason that they keep paying every month

is probably because they're not on top of their finances,

in all honesty. We've all got subscriptions that we don't realize we've got,

whether it's Netflix or a membership or whatever,

guilty as charged on some of those as well.

Mm-hmm. Me too.

So there's a bit of that. in terms of the signing up and not taking part,

It's a tricky one I try not to attract those types of clients.

I really do work quite hard in my messaging.

we don't have guest experts unless they're requested by people.

We don't have stuff that just goes into the replay section and

that's supposed to represent value.

I think that translates into the type of people that we attract now,

Yeah.

because they are people who genuinely want to show up,

do the work and make progress.

Some people don't really need to...

Wow, yeah.

make a lot of money in their business.

Perhaps they're not the only breadwinner in the family or perhaps they

are just dipping their toe in for the first time to find out whether they enjoy

being in business. And actually,

maybe they don't, but maybe they feel a bit close to the organizer.

And so they think, I don't want to cancel this membership on them.

Being guilty of that sometimes as well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maybe they think if only they're a member.

for a few more months it'll all click into place.

I mean, so many different reasons,

aren't there?

For people

who are listening and not watching this on YouTube,

there was a lot of nodding on my side going on here.

So I want to give you a little psyche into the type of person who does

pay for things, who doesn't always engage.

I'm definitely one of those, And here's what I have had to do some hard thinking

Hey.

and reflection about. Well,

I can't wait to hear this.

yeah, one of them is I just have this...

FOMO thing with, you know, I definitely want to be part of things.

Mmm.

And my research on social identity and ~ group identity helps me understand this,

right? So I know that psychologically I want to be.

part of a group and when I'm part of a group I identify strongly with that group

and so I like being in groups where I know there are people with similar views

or with common aims. I also know about me that I am time poor,

right? I work part time, I study part time so there's only,

you know, there's 37 hour working.

working hours in a week for a traditional working person,

I still think in my head that I'm trying to squeeze in 30 hours of work alongside

a PhD. It's not going to happen,

You

is it? So there's that whole thing there.

And then there is that priority thing.

It's like, how much do I want the thing that I think I want?

And that's the thing I've had to be really,

really kind of reflective about this year and say,

if I'm in a group, what am I in there for?

What am I thinking?

getting from it but I've had to also ask myself what am I giving back

and that comes back to what you're saying which is like what are going

to get from that space and there are some spaces where when I think about

it maybe I don't feel like I fit or I'm not that kind of person and I've

had to start thinking you know that's okay that's absolutely okay because maybe

Mmm.

I'm not there now but I might be some time in the future or maybe I've just outgrown

that group and I think you know we we fail to see this because a

of our emotional attachment is sat with group identity,

it's a large part of who we are and that thing that you mentioned about

you know I'm close to the person who runs the group there's this idea

of what we call like an identity leadership so people who lead with

an identity and their identity leadership is about we and not me we're more likely

to follow them and to be in their groups because we feel that they're in

it for us and perhaps

that's why we stay in those groups more.

So this is all fascinating but this is all kind of what I'm researching

at the moment as part of my PhD.

So it has made me think and it does make me think about you know when

I go into things if it was if I was given something like a contract like

a phone contract like a mobile phone contract I would probably scrutinise

Mmm.

it better than the simple click sign up pages.

And it has made me think about how I contract in my own spaces now and thinking,

how do I get people to contract so they know what they're signing up for,

but also so I can ask them, what do you want to bring as well?

So there are those things. I suppose the second thing is...

Nice.

there's also people who get vicarious kind of knowledge out of being

in spaces and are not joining us in.

And so in my original imposter research,

there were so many people who they're on a journey and perhaps they're right

at the start, but the vicarious engagement was just enough,

just enough at that point.

It's like the toe in the water and perhaps actually if I'd engaged with them

a year later, perhaps they were engaging more in those spaces,

but there's definitely a cohort of people who,

Mm.

you know, they paid their money,

they lurked in the background,

they got lots of enjoyment from it.

Actually, they reported feeling more confident or this or that or the other.

Was it actually moving their businesses forward if it was a business space?

I don't know. We didn't measure that return on investment,

Hmm.

but there's definitely all these different

types of people so knowing who you're bringing in I think is probably yeah that

helps de-risk your own offer doesn't it a little bit.

Yeah, yeah. And it helps make sure that the risk is reduced for the people

who are coming in as well. Because if they're really clear on why they're coming

in and you have communicated really clearly why this is a good space for them,

given them the space and the grace to make their own decision,

Yeah.

and then they come in, then it should be a really great two-way partnership.

It should.

Something you said earlier, ~ the coaching that you did where it wasn't

so great because obviously the person who was the coach ghosted the cohort.

But you did mention, you know,

you've got a best friend out of that.

You've made some really good connections.

Yeah.

And I think this is one of the things that I keep reflecting on.

So before I was recording with you today,

I was on the phone with Christina Clark,

who we both know from a business community way back when.

yeah. Yeah!

And I mentioned, said,

I'm chatting to Nikki ~ later,

she's like, And I think that's just an example of Christine as somebody

who I know from six, seven years ago,

and she's become a really good friend of mine,

and we both kind of support each other with our businesses.

that...

That kind of relationship as an adult in business is so hard

to come by that when you find those people who really like kind of get you and can,

Yeah.

know, Christina is the kind of person who can call me out and say,

are you sure that's what you're doing this for?

Yeah. Yeah.

Or she's the first person to say to me,

why aren't you charging for that?

I did a free challenge last week and she's like,

you're not charging. And I was like,

I'd never even considered that,

you know. So, you you get these people in your life,

but it's,

interesting isn't it when we take risks then actually that comes back to

us and it comes back to us probably in things we didn't expect to

get from the experience.

Definitely, definitely. I mean,

there's even that kind of bonding over this

shared awful experience and being able to make light of it and just go,

~ what is going on? ~ And kind of forge a path through it and out

Yeah.

the other side together is, that's helpful if you go through things like that.

Yeah,

it is really helpful. So then on reflection,

do you think entering into that coaching relationship with that individual

or that coaching cohort, do you think that's one of the more riskier things you've

done or would you say it didn't feel risky at the time?

mean, financially, it was a chunky investment,

but I do make chunky investments like that regularly.

Okay.

Would I do it again? what was going to happen?

Yeah, I would, because I wouldn't have met that friend who I love dearly,

and I'm more than made back my investment in financially as well.

And I

wonder if there's something in there as well about how it's kind

of informed your approach, how you run your business and how you create space

for people

will

never ghost anybody. don't mind where you play this.

It will not come back to haunt me,

Hahaha

boom, boom, because I will never ghost anybody.

I just won't do it because it makes no sense to me.

Yeah.

And particularly having been on the receiving end of that.

I mean, we are professional business owners.

We have promised to deliver, so we will deliver to the best of our capabilities.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's how it should be.

I agree with that. yeah, I'm just giggling to myself because when I set

up all of the podcast interviews,

you came back because I said, wait,

I need a bio and I need some photos.

And you're like the first person to come back with a link where it's

all in one place. I remember messaging you guys.

thank you for being so professional because it saves so much time when people

Yeah. But that came from

are really professional.

an investment that I made early on in my business.

I learned that from somebody. You know?

Yeah.

I was thinking, what a cool thing to do.

Somebody has literally this morning asked me for a bio ~ for

an event I'm facilitating later this year.

And I said, I'm going to sit and find something on my website that just about sounds

right. And I'm like, I should do a NICI here.

I should definitely have my page set up so that some lovely photos and just

Do it! Yeah!

get that done. would make so much sense.

~ definitely. You'll save so much time.

So

if chunky investment isn't something that is necessarily risky to

you but would be to other people,

I think that's been really useful for us to discuss.

Mm.

Well, if I could ask you then,

what is risk to you?

Like I would never bet my house.

I should hope not.

Let's be real.

No, but it's interesting because we are rebranding at the moment.

By the time this goes out, it will be done.

Mm-hmm.

So John is redoing our entire website.

so he's been doing a competitor review of lots

of big names in the industry and making sure that he's taking out,

wow. Yeah.

you know, he's taking the best bits and

Obviously it's going to be completely ours,

but he's looking at the various different bits of code he geeks out

on all this stuff that he can do to make cool things happen on the website.

Yeah.

you know, he does this for clients as well.

And we were talking about it over lunch yesterday and he said,

~ you know, some of these people are charging a hundred K plus for one-to-one work.

I'm like, yeah, I would never pay that.

Yeah.

I would not pay a hundred.

to work with somebody one-to-one.

But maybe that's because of the level of business I'm at.

Maybe because my investments have grown over the years.

You know, I've gone from joining that free,

no financial risk at all accelerator to investing five figures.

Maybe when I'm further on, I will invest six figures.

Who knows?

Mm. And this...

There's also the cost of not investing,

isn't there, which we don't weigh up as well.

So psychologically, we put all of the risk into what we can see.

We value spent or sub-cost, don't we,

over prospective loss.

So we're easy to discount, well,

I won't get this if I don't invest this.

And it's easy to discount. So psychologically,

I think that's quite interesting sometimes as well.

Yeah, because actually you are cementing the fact that that

risk, because you're not taking it.

So there's no chance of it paying off.

Exactly. Yeah.

And you're almost saying I'm not that person or I...

So in my challenge this week,

Yeah!

it was based on just a really recent paper that's been published about

how we deal with hard things. And the authors kind of summarise

it and very simplistically they say,

when you approach a hard thing,

you do one of two things. One,

you say, I'm not that kind of person,

so this is why it's so hard. This isn't for me.

Okay, now I can definitely...

resonate with that because I think two years ago I'd have said no

I don't do launches yeah that's hard it's not me but I associated

it with my identity so I'm not the kind of person who does that and then there's

the other type of hard it's more about you know that the context

or what other people might see or think or say so they were actually saying that

you know it's our interpretation of hard is the thing that is most

Mm-hmm.

interesting if you can reflect when it comes to risk and say why am

I seeing this risk as a big thing here is it because it's linked to what

I think I am or I am not or is it linked to the context and I it's not

a great time right now and there's lots of other strategic

and operational reasons which mean it's just not a good thing to do or

am I linking it to my identity and if it's against your identity then perhaps that's

the thing to work on right because that

the thing that is going to hold you back and then if we think about things like

Mmm.

you know why are you motivated?

I think psychologically, when I chat to you,

the thing that I always think is like that motivation comes from

a really strong identity about who you are,

what you do and who you sell to.

And right back to that question you first asked me,

which was, how do I work with you?

What do you do? And it's always been easy for me to say to people,

yeah, Nikki, she's a marketing strategist,

know, strategy, operational agency,

you know, you name it, that's her bag.

And it feels easy to say that about people when

they know who they are and who their identity is.

It's so interesting because I know that you do a lot of work around imposter

syndrome as well. And I constantly feel as if I make it hard for people

to see what I do. So thanks for reassuring me today.

It's worth mentioning that imposter phenomenon then,

isn't it? So is that where that shows up for you?

That experiences like, you know,

do people know me? What am I known for?

Is that the question that circles?

That's a hundred

percent. Yeah. I'm always like,

what is my thing? And so many people say to me,

Yeah. Yeah.

~ you're marketing. I'm like, yeah,

but what, but what? Like I want all the detail.

I, because I can so easily put myself in somebody else's shoes,

but we can't do that very easily for ourselves to look down

more really challenging.

and think what, how am I perceived in the market?

You know, where am I sitting?

Yeah, yeah.

And we have to try, but it's really,

really difficult, far easier to do it for someone else.

Maybe a different question then is rather than saying if I said,

know, marketing, is to turn that and be counterfactual and say,

why would it matter what in marketing?

Doesn't marketing just answer the question?

So why does it need to be more complicated than that?

I think that's where I would perhaps prompt you to say,

yeah.

Yeah,

but then I always go down this avenue of,

well, you have to be really specific.

And I do say this to clients and you do need to be specific because then,

Yeah.

you know, if somebody wants you to deliver a workshop for them,

for example, ~ and you've got your media pack all ready to send them

Mm-hmm.

and all the rest of it. But what are you actually going to deliver a workshop on?

Yeah.

Like nobody's going to book me to deliver a workshop on marketing.

They might book me to deliver a workshop on launching

Hmm.

or on your 12 month marketing strategy.

You've got to have something more specific because you need to be able

to answer a question that somebody has right now.

So everybody knows that they need to do marketing.

Yeah.

Most people don't want to do it.

~

That's okay. I don't take it personally.

~ But for that need to become...

What's the word I'm looking for?

~

urgent for that need to become an urgent requirement.

Mm.

They need to know that they need something more specific than just marketing.

Yeah, I hear you. And I think that's where I'm so excited about,

you know, the idea that we talk about thought leadership now and we talk about,

you know, what people, so.

The thing I like to like kind of chat to people about is like,

if you were to stand in a room and you've got 30 minutes,

what could you talk about right now without prepping?

You know, that intrinsically is like,

that is you. If you could talk to something for 30 minutes without stopping,

Yeah.

you don't need notes and you could engage a room,

then I would say that is kind of what you do.

And for me, it always has been and always will be,

you know, psychology, imposter and group and identity and that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

And so there must be a part

of marketing, which is your go-to kind of like signature.

I think some people have like signature talks,

but what kind of things do you do like for your signature?

So

for me, it's organic marketing.

I really believe that and I mean,

it's just fact to me. It's fact that you cannot spend money

You

on marketing until you've tested out organic marketing,

which is just marketing that costs nothing ~ other than your time.

Yeah. Yeah.

So for example, I would never recommend that a client

test something with paid ads that they haven't already tested on social media

for free. So for example, many years ago now,

we created and promoted three different lead magnets.

One was called 25 ways to grow your audience without paying for ads.

Mmm.

One was called 10 places to share your lead magnet.

and one was called something else that was so generic I can't even remember.

Surprise, surprise, that one didn't do very well.

I don't know.

The one that outperformed the other two by miles on social media alone with

no budget behind it was 25 ways to grow your audience without paying

Yeah.

for ads because it was a very clear title.

People could see, they could understand very quickly what they were going to get,

Yeah.

but it...

attracted a certain type of person.

It attracted somebody who wanted to learn more about organic marketing.

Yeah.

And so that was a great funnel for us for many years.

Now, not so much because we work with more established business owners

who do have budget. And that was one of the things that

the message of promote your business for free also did was attract people

Yeah.

who didn't want to spend money.

Did have to do

it. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So

we retired that. But the point is we tested all three,

realised, well, identified which one performed best and then put

ad spend behind that one. So we didn't waste any money on the other two.

Yeah.

Yeah. ~

I think for me, the bit that I kind of like see coming through a

lot in your messaging is just like the strategy behind stuff really kind

Mm-hmm.

of sits out there. you had a campaign once,

which is like you would talk about,

you know, I'm a joiner in a, I joined in spaces and I'm,

you know, and I remember you saying that phrase because you must have said

it probably three or four times a week for six or six to eight weeks across

all your socials.

consistent with it, but it was just like a really easy piece

of takeaway marketing that, you know,

someone like me, who didn't have a budget at the time,

could kind of go, ~ well, I can do that.

That's easy, actually. I just have to be engaged and show up and

be enthusiastic in the spaces that I'm already in.

That is marketing. wow. I didn't even know that was a strategy,

Yeah.

but yeah, it is, isn't it? So that's organic.

Yeah, yeah,

exactly. And it is really important to understand that comes from understanding your

audience. And it is really important to understand the motivations of your audience.

Yeah.

So, for example, I run I run two annual events now.

One of them is in London called Launch Like a Pro.

And the messaging around that,

we launched it last year around September time.

I think I started talking about it.

And the messaging was

be in the room because I knew that this whole in-person experience

was exploding and people wanted to be in the room.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I got all the speakers to record little videos saying,

I'll be in the room, I'll be in the room.

And then we put them together.

had this reel and everybody wanted to be in the room and it was great

FOMO, I'm telling you, that's the thing.

and it worked really well. Yeah.

But that came from understanding that people were ready to get back into rooms

and that they now had this

Yeah.

deeper understanding of the importance of being around like-minded people

and all that kind of stuff and then encapsulating that in one simple strapline

as a rallying cry almost.

Yeah.

And that

is deeply, you know, social psychology is deeply linking back

to the social identity. like, am I part of this group or am I not?

How can I ever be part of this group if I don't put myself in that group?

And we do that. We put ourselves in places we want to be because we want

to be part of the in crowd. And it's called in-group and out-group theory.

You know, it's so simple, but it is just pervasive and we all live

and breathe it every single day.

But the fact that you're marketing kind of hinges on that stuff just fascinating.

me it's like you really I don't know I think your phrasing just really captures

my attention because it's probably very social and then that's the

way that my brain's going tell me about our ventures in marketing because

I feel like every year I see this and I'm like I must go to that and then

I you know it's in Scotland so it's a little far away for me but tell me

Yeah

how it all started and where it's at right now are you still involved with it?

Yeah.

Absolutely.

my friend, Abby and I, Abby came along to the final.

So I used to run in-person networking,

just coffee and chats and workshops and things once a month in Edinburgh,

every month for three years, right up until March,

2020. And Abby came to that final one just before COVID when we were

all bumping elbows and we met for the first time.

You

And

Then she went on to join my program,

Fully Booked Book Camp. And then we became friends.

It's impossible not to become friends with Abby.

She is awesome. And we were having chats because we were investing

a lot of time and energy and money in going up and down from Scotland down south

to go to business events. And one day,

neither of us can remember whose ridiculous idea it was.

But one day we were passing each other on trains,

literally going in opposite directions chatting.

And somebody said, why is there nothing like this in Scotland?

Like we need to make this easier.

We need to bring something to Scotland.

And then we did. So we just set it up from a place of friendship and looking

to not spend so much time on trains and to also show people that awesome things

can happen in Scotland as well.

agree, I agree.

I'm half Scottish, my dad's Scottish,

~

so you know, I absolutely fly that Scottish flag as well.

So you're on board. But I

I am, I am on board.

mean, the majority of things, of fun business events do still happen south

of the border, I think. Anyway,

They do in London. Yeah. ~

so 2023 was the first one,

February. Is that right? No, that can't be right.

That's not right at all. Let me think.

we're, February 27 will be

Yeah.

Adventures in Marketing 5.

Oh, so it must have been 22 then.

So must have been 22 was the first one.

Which would be about right because 21 we were all coming out of lockdown,

weren't we? You were in one thing.

Yeah,

yeah. And so we just thought this will be fun.

And we set it up and we got speakers along and it was,

Hahaha

it was great. And we had around a hundred people at that first one.

We stayed in the same venue, did about the same in the second one,

the second year. And then in the third and fourth years,

we moved to a new venue, slightly bigger,

~ much nicer venue.

turned it into more of ~ an event,

lovely food and things. we started to,

Yeah.

I mean, all the way through we managed to,

because we've always done loads of networking and I've always invested

in getting myself into rooms, virtual or otherwise,

with business leaders. So we always had a great range of speakers who would come

and speak for us. ~ And we are just in the process of finalizing

the speakers for 2027.

mega excited by the people who are now approaching us to say,

Exciting!

this is awesome, can I be involved?

And we're going big next year.

So we're doubling the size. I've just secured the most amazing venue.

Ooh.

Very, very difficult to find a venue of the size that we need

in Edinburgh that could take people at round tables.

And you might like this because of your social psychology.

What?

angle. It's really, really important to us that people are at round tables

at adventures and marketing specifically,

Yeah.

because the feedback that we get constantly is,

wow, the people who are here are just people that we want to chat to all day.

We've got people who've made friendships and now come back together every year

because it's maybe the only time of year that they see each other.

My idea of like a really bad event is going somewhere and sitting

in an auditorium and facing forward and not being able to get out because

I'm kind of in it like you feel like you're at the cinema.

If I go somewhere and I'm to meet people,

yes I want to hear what's being said,

but I am there to chat and mingle and connect and do all of the...

So I think, you know, and we know with like trying to,

you know...

Communicate to people broadcasting to people is not the way to do things right

you need a mix It's that whole mix of like stuff that you need doing so yeah,

It's really not.

the circular tables I mean even from my days like in training and stuff

you get such a different energy in the room You know,

you've got that that space for people to flow you can move a chair back when you're

in a on a circular table You can like chat to the person on the next table

if you've got people in lines or you know You're facing forward you

you don't see other people's reactions

Yeah.

and from a social perspective we're all reading the room all of the time.

Whether we get that right or not we're all reading the room so your delegates

you

are looking at what other people are getting from that moment and I know that we're

all in this like kind of social media bubble where we only think

we only share reactions online.

If you think about pre-Instagram days the way you knew whether there was

a vibe or something happening is from watching other people in the room

and how they're reacting to things.

Are they clapping? Are they smiling?

Are laughing? You know, are they coming up to you afterwards going,

really enjoyed that. You know,

it all happens online, it's not separate to real life,

it's just an extension of. And if you're not seeing those things in

the inside room and you're only seeing it online,

then it probably didn't happen in real life,

you know. So, all of those things.

I love that insight.

Hi, this is a post script for Nikki.

as I was editing our podcast today,

I read this post which really made me think about this discussion called

the panel discussion at events is dying.

And this whole idea that actually that salon type of experience where people

are around round tables is the thing for 2027.

So I'm going to send you this post.

It was by Juliet Tripp.

for anybody else who's listening,

yeah, panel discussions are dead.

Don't tell people you want to be on their panel.

Pitch something a little bit more bougie because that's exactly where

we think things are going for all of the reasons I just said out loud.

So yeah, it took a lot longer than I had hoped to find the perfect venue,

But you've got it!

which could accommodate these larger numbers at round tables,

but we've done it. So.

So my very poor memory tells me that you usually release

the tickets very early, like you do like an early bird.

So have they already gone? Have you already sold tickets?

Yes, tickets are available now.

~

going to make a commitment now to get to your adventure marketing next year,

it's got to happen. I lived in Glasgow for when

~ I'd love that! I think you'd love it.

I was in my late 20s,

and I've got family in Glasgow and I don't go up nearly enough and

I love obviously the cities but I want to go to the Edinburgh Sculpture Park which I

I've not been to and I really,

really want to go. I think I can encourage my husband to come on like

yeah.

wow.

a week's adventure in the camper van and then just I'll mention,

oh, by the way, there's this marketing company.

And maybe squeeze by it.

~ fab, that would be great. But yeah,

we work and again, it's it is about this social interaction.

You know, I think the fact that the event came from a place of friendship

and it was just approached as an adventure in itself for us to see if

Yeah.

we could bring people together and make some more business friends and have

a lot of fun and do a lot of learning.

That is at the absolute heart of the event that will never leave the event.

that's the most important thing.

The most important thing to us is that our friendship with stands running

a high pressure event together.

Hahaha

Like that is our commitment to each other.

That's a good test. That's a good test of a friendship,

a good test. And, you know, the thing that I kind of,

I'm reflecting on and taking from our conversation today is,

know, that whole thing of, you know,

what do you do? Who are you? And you saying,

you know, that niche thing. But what I'm hearing is a large part of what

you do is you put yourself in rooms and you get something from them,

but you're so infectious. I think what you're doing is you're trying

to encourage other people to do that as well.

And you create space for that,

whether it's like the adventures in marketing,

you know, the face-to-face stuff or whether it's masterminds and online spaces.

And so I think if people ask me now,

what does Nikki do? I'm like, well,

she creates spaces where you want to be.

~ love that!

And, you know, I think maybe that is the brand of marketing.

I don't know.

I love

that. And actually I've changed my mastermind this year because it used

to be online and now it is in person.

So I have an Edinburgh branch,

How is it?

if you like, a Edinburgh cohort and a London cohort.

Yeah.

That's lovely.

And I have monthly in-person days because and that came from looking

at customer feedback and asking them what have been your favourite elements.

And we used to just have an in-person day at the start and the end and they

Yeah.

all just went, those are incredible.

Okay, let's make those the focus.

There must be something better about the way in which someone can engage with

an in-person certainly if I'm doing an in-person thing I book the time out.

There's something about psychologically I protect my time better when I've

got to go out and do something.

I think it's something about making that commitment.

You are all in. Can you hear my dog in the background now?

that's good. She's barking at the door or something.

I can't, no. I can't hear

that. You've got a really good microphone so we're all good.

Ha

ha ha!

Nikki, it's been fabulous to talk to you.

We've covered risk.

I've loved hearing your frank and very honest account of investing

in something that probably wasn't what it reported to be,

but how you take some of that as a personal responsibility as well to,

you know, say, what am I going to take from it?

The conversation we've had about,

you know, imposter experiences don't just happen in isolation to people

who are at the start of their career.

And I think that's very evident with the conversation we've

where you're like, I still think about,

you what do people know me for?

You know, who am I? And isn't it interesting that that's the one thing that

I associate with you is you're the person who helped me figure out what

I tell people I'm all about. I will absolutely see you in Scotland next February.

~ Yeah. Love that action taking commitment.

I'm there.

~ thank you. I've loved our conversation.

You always bring a deeper insight we're discussing through

a really professional psychological lens.

I love it.

~

Well, we got there in the end,

dogs and all. Adventures in Marketing is back next February.

I have actually purchased my ticket and I'd love to join you there.

The early bird tickets, I think,

are on sale now till the end of summer.

So if you head to Nicky's website,

you can find all of the details right there.

Coming up in September

I am doing a walk and talk and reflect in Hyde Park in London

on Tuesday the 15th of September.

Join me, I'm going to take you on a walk through the Serpentine Pavilion.

that is reconstructed every year by different artists and architects.

and I love this space because it's just at the turn of the season so

we get that hint of autumn I'm going to suggest we grab a coffee and

a pastry and then just have a quiet wander.

This is called my adult inset day.

details of this on the show nets.