[00:00:13] Jason S. Bradshaw: Welcome to Chats with Jason. I'm your host, Jason S. Bradshaw, and today on Chats with Jason, we're unlocking the blueprint to real loyalty, not the points-based kind, but the kind that turns customers into fans, and employees into believers.

[00:00:34] Jason S. Bradshaw: Today, we meet Stacy Sherman, award-winning CX strategist, bestselling author, and founder of Doing CX Right®. A woman on a mission to humanize business - one conversation, one connection, one customer at a time. For 25 years, she's merged heart and science to deliver CX that doesn't just convert, it changes lives.

[00:01:15] Jason S. Bradshaw: Stacy, welcome to the show.

[00:01:22] Jason S. Bradshaw: Well, you're free to use it. And, I could probably go on for another few hours with all the awards that you've won and the great impact that you've had on the CX community, business leaders and employees around the world. Great privilege and honor to have you on the show today, Stacy.

[00:01:47] Jason S. Bradshaw: So if you had to explain customer experience to an 11-year-old, how would you describe it?

[00:02:03] Stacy Sherman: So I would explain it, that imagine you wanted ice cream, and so what would you do? Well, you would first probably ask your friends and learn about where to get the best ice cream. And then you would probably go to that ice cream place. Or maybe it's an ice cream truck? And you would buy it. So, you learned about it. You buy it. You get it. You eat it. You pay for it. You might need help because the ice cream fell on the floor and you need a new one.

[00:03:38] Jason S. Bradshaw: Yeah, if only we had TikTok when I was an 11-year-old.

[00:03:45] Jason S. Bradshaw: Yeah, I'm not sure the world was ready for my bad dancing when I was 11 or when I'm 40, so we can definitely skip that part of TikTok.

[00:04:09] Jason S. Bradshaw: So going from what's meant to be a simple question to perhaps a little bit harder hitting now. What's one unpopular opinion you have about customer experience that most people need to hear?

[00:05:21] Jason S. Bradshaw: Yeah, could not agree more. Just being satisfied. Definitely not a recipe for repeat or referral business, if that's all that you're generating as a satisfied customer.

[00:05:46] Stacy Sherman: That it belongs to customer service department and that's it. And there becomes this blame game and pointing fingers because nobody is really being accountable. It's not in their job title. It's not in their responsibility. It belongs to customer service. And so I am around the world educating that is a limiting belief.

[00:06:46] Jason S. Bradshaw: Why couldn't companies go down this path of creating the chief customer officer role? Or something like it. And then perpetuating this myth that, well, now I've got a chief customer officer that's a new department and they can fix everything about customer.

[00:07:06] Stacy Sherman: Part of it is that silos are part of every single company I've ever worked for or worked with, and because of that, they're creating the role of CXO to be the glue the organization 'cause nobody else is.

[00:07:51] Stacy Sherman: And so, I believe the role is needed to be the glue where they work with IT, legal, HR, marketing, product. And the journey we talked about with the ice cream... bringing every department and team to design that experience, and the journey management, and then validate with real customers.

[00:08:38] Jason S. Bradshaw: Yeah, I absolutely believe that the Chief Experience Officer, Chief Customer Officer, one of their biggest jobs, and I'd like to hear your take on this.

[00:09:00] Stacy Sherman: Not satisfactory.

[00:09:05] Stacy Sherman: You tell that's a pain point.

[00:09:15] Stacy Sherman: Yeah, no.

[00:09:31] Stacy Sherman: Oh, there's so many good ones Doing CX Right® and I'm on a mission to tell those stories, so I love the question.

[00:10:05] Stacy Sherman: Number one: My onboarding. I come into the store. The whole experience, just when you walk in feels good. And people greet you, and say hello. It's something so basic. But more than that, how can I help you today? I'm looking for this X, Y, Z product. Oh, let me walk you there and show you it. And oh by the way, let me open the bag of these chips so you can taste it. And I said you don't need to do that. I don't want you to waste money 'cause if I don't like it, I'm not buying it. No, no. We wanna make sure you are happy. Okay, that's great! I try it, I do love it. I finish my shopping and I go check out. When I check out, it starts to hail, rain. Major storm. The woman at the register sees that I have no umbrella. What does she do? She tells me that I'm going to walk you to your car and help you with your groceries, and I have an umbrella, so I'll be able to keep us both dry. Now by the way, she did not need to ask her manager to do that. Let me repeat. She did not need to ask to be empowered to do some kindness walking me to my car. She was proactive. I didn't ask. I would never even been asked, but she went up and beyond to create what I call this emotional high. This moment of caring in actions. And I believe that companies can create these emotional highs throughout the journey, and that's what's going to keep people talking about you as I am right this moment.

[00:12:01] Stacy Sherman: No.

[00:12:08] Stacy Sherman: No.

[00:12:16] Stacy Sherman: Absolutely consistent.

[00:12:31] Jason S. Bradshaw: Nowhere in there talked about, oh, well, you know, I expect this because instead of paying - I was gonna talk about eggs, but I perhaps no. Nowhere am I paying a dollar for my product, and then a $5 service charge on top of it. I'm simply getting great value with great experiences. Is that how you would explain a Trader Joe's shop?

[00:13:12] Stacy Sherman: And here's how you know that they are doing CX right.

[00:13:49] Jason S. Bradshaw: Yeah, we should also take the moment just to acknowledge they can do all of this. And be profitable. It's not about being nice and loved by customers, and not making money. You can do both and do both really well.

[00:14:33] Jason S. Bradshaw: Now, whole Foods is, I would say probably from a brand perspective, seen as a more luxurious brand to Trader Joe's, but here we are, Trader Joe's doubling down on experience and doubling up on profits.

[00:14:54] Jason S. Bradshaw: So Stacy, you created the heart and science loyalty model. Can you walk us through what that looks like in action and how a small business or a leader of a small team could apply it today?

[00:15:21] Stacy Sherman: At the ice cream example of how you learn and buy, get, use, pay, get help. At the highest level. And it's actually designing for the emotions. But then the science comes in where you're measuring specifically, precisely how you are delivering on the promises. And so it's the metrics side.

[00:16:05] Jason S. Bradshaw: Yeah, makes so much sense to me.

[00:16:17] Jason S. Bradshaw: What do most loyalty programs miss when it comes to building real emotional connection with customers?

[00:16:48] Jason S. Bradshaw: But I'm just picking on airlines, but they're not the only ones of course. Most loyalty programs I would argue fail to think about who they're actually serving through that loyalty program. So what are most of them missing in your opinion? And how could they change that and create an emotional connection?

[00:17:09] Stacy Sherman: During the pandemic, my team stopped doing surveys. They were phone surveys. We would do 10,000 a year to gauge whether the customer was going to renew their contract. We would do it six months to a year in advance because you can't ask them right when they're going to leave or when the contract's up. How do we do? That's too late.

[00:18:27] Jason S. Bradshaw: Yeah, there's so much power in that.

[00:18:47] Jason S. Bradshaw: And as you were explaining that to me, I was replaying in my mind the conversation I had with an Australian based airline. I won't say their name, but I was a member of their invite only tier of their program. And I didn't travel for nine months because my grandmother was in hospital and she was a hundred years of age, so it was in, something that took priority. So I wasn't traveling for nine months. Now, during that time, the airline, instead of reaching out to me to say, you know, is everything okay? We haven't seen you like you are one of our high flyers. They simply sent me a letter saying, congratulations, we've downgraded you to the next tier. Goodbye. And then when I, of course complained about it, they had even less interest. Yet, here we have a story of reaching out to people saying, you know, is everything okay? No alternative motive other than just being human, which is powerful. And the lesson everyone watching or listening today, how can you be that intentional about creating relationship as opposed to creating a sale? 'Cause if you do the relationship bit, I think the sale comes right.

[00:20:38] Stacy Sherman: When we talk about the journey, there is an employee journey too. And every point, whether you're talking about bringing them into the company and onboarding and training and career growth, but even the exit matters. And here's what happened to me. And by the way, you never know who of your workforce is your customer too. If you're a telecom company, their home and everybody and their family might be using you. So, make sure that you exit the right way.

[00:21:49] Jason S. Bradshaw: Just take one extra moment to think about the impact of your action before you take it. And like you said, you left that organization not for personal reasons, was just, company reorg where these things happen. I've been subject to it too, and I think it raises more questions than answers when you have the experience that you went through and that just leads to disruption of the worst possible type.

[00:22:26] Jason S. Bradshaw: What's the biggest mistake people make when they think about doing CX right, but they're really not?

[00:23:30] Jason S. Bradshaw: Yeah, absolutely. You'll stand out in your organization if you do deliver a consistent experience to your internal, external customers, even if it's not in your job title.

[00:23:50] Stacy Sherman: Yeah. Thank you for that. So my show is all about what does CX right mean? What does it look like? What does doing it wrong look like? So that you can actually avoid those mistakes. And I go into a lot of case studies with my guests. I have mostly company leaders on my show, but I also have some wonderful authors - Seth Godin, Daniel Pink. Tons of thought leaders. Fred Reichheld who invented NPS and others that are just brilliant and have their zone of genius. And so I'm learning just as much as we're all learning. And that's my goal, is to help people keep getting educated - that peer to peer education.

[00:25:01] Jason S. Bradshaw: What habits or mindsets have helped to you stay relevant and real to your customers and to the industry at large in such a fast changing space?

[00:26:05] Jason S. Bradshaw: Absolutely and I think it's definitely a practice area that, by definition, it evolves and expectations change as our customers and the world around us changes.

[00:26:41] Stacy Sherman: Oh, so many. I would say, well, first of all, employee experience, I think the word's starting to get overused, but the meaning of it is important. Just like DEI is no longer the words to use, but the meaning of people belonging, and being cared for and having a voice is still important.

[00:27:37] Stacy Sherman: (b) Secondly, helping all of the executive level down to the intern level and everybody in between, helping them understand what great looks like, what it feels like. And what I mean by that is shadowing your peers. Take someone from billing and put them on the customer service calls, or at least listen in. Take someone an agent from customer service and have them be part of the HR team for a day. Have all the different roles shadow. I learned more from traveling, going on ride alongs with technicians when I worked at an elevator industry. I learned more from one day of being a technician for a day, which had never been before than I did a year in my corporate role. And so put on the hard hat or the equivalent symbol.

[00:29:09] Jason S. Bradshaw: Yeah, some great insights there for us.

[00:29:23] Jason S. Bradshaw: What's one often overlooked moved, a small shift that could have a big impact that you'd recommend to instantly start improving either customer or employee loyalty?

[00:29:44] Stacy Sherman: Now, it started with our customer service agents. What I mean by that is picture like Facebook internally where they could ask each other for help and support, and what did you do when this happened? Oh, what did you do? Allow them to help each other, not just your corporate team chiming in. And the reason that's important is because if you don't, they start the community on Facebook and don't let you in. I remember that I would go into Facebook groups because the customer service agents were all talking, and I wanted to come in just to understand what it's like in their shoes, they wouldn't let me in because I was headquarter staff. So the point is, if you create a space for them to have the community and support each other, and award systems, and thank yous and kudos, then not only are they happier and more fulfilled, but you get that voice of employee insight that you can do something with. And keep them, and retain them, and make them feel like they're part of the company and then they stay.

[00:31:21] Stacy Sherman: Yes and one thing though, I wasn't even coming at it from that lens. What I was saying is that we gave the customer service agents the ability to say... hey, I had this irate customer and here's how I'm feeling. Anybody else have that? And someone else would chime in and say, yeah, I really get you. Like that empathy, and here's how I handled it. Them helping each other give them that platform.

[00:31:57] Jason S. Bradshaw: Stacy, it's been absolutely excellent having you on the show. You've dropped some golden nuggets for us today, and those watching along at home or listening along on their commute to work or wherever they might be enjoying today's content.

[00:32:29] Stacy Sherman: Some of the stories I already shared but I promise you that there are concrete examples where there's a theory and then the lesson. And it goes back and forth between the theory and the lesson, and it goes very deep into this journey I was describing. But the important thing is a lot of people are talking about customer journey mapping in this world, and this book is taking it a step forward where it's this whole ecosystem. So it's not just your customer. It's your employee experience. It's your partner experience. It's an omnichannel perspective. So journey mapping is important, but this is taking it to a grander level.

[00:33:23] Jason S. Bradshaw: And Stacy, excellent. Thank you so much for being on the show today.

[00:33:28] Jason S. Bradshaw: Now, Stacy Sherman didn't just give us strategies today. She gave us a reminder. A reminder that people don't stay because of policies or procedures but they stay because of how you made them feel.

[00:33:51] Jason S. Bradshaw: So let this episode be more than just information. Let it be a spark. Share it with someone who is ready to reimagine loyalty. Leave a five star review and tag us with your biggest takeaway, and most importantly, ask yourself, where can I lead with more heart and more humanity starting today?

[00:34:17] Jason S. Bradshaw: I'm Jason S. Bradshaw reminding you that better business starts with delivering a better experience. Thanks for tuning in to Chats With Jason.