[00:00:03] Brett: Thanks, Jason. Great to be here. I appreciate the opportunity to chat with you.

[00:00:18] Brett: Yeah, it's, uh, it's been fun. It's been another fun adventure since I retired from the Navy, uh, after 30 years to, to now find myself on a book tour. Occasionally you're talking about a book and, um, you know, as I say, it took me, it only took me 34 years to write, but, uh, I've been enjoying the, the couple of months since it's come out, at least, and the chance to talk about not just leadership, but the Navy and all the, you know, The amazing things I learned over the last 30 years in service.

[00:01:09] Jason: every site where great books are sold. Everyone's giving you rave reviews on this book. Now, uh, 30 years of service in the U. S. Navy. Thank you for your service. I think you would have seen quite a lot in that time. Um, but before we dive into some of the lessons you share with us in the book, a maverick Navy captain.

[00:01:38] Brett: Well, I think it's how you, how you interpret that word, I guess. Uh, obviously, you know, the book came out. Still in the popularity of the most recent Top Gun movie. Um, which, which in all fairness, you know, we can back up to when I was 16 year old, Brett Crozier looking to figure out what I wanted to do in life.

[00:02:12] Brett: So it was fun in some way to. To reflect on the current movie in the title of the book. Um, but yeah, I think in some ways too, it's, you know, the claim to fame, so to speak in the Navy is all in the last couple of years of my career. And it, and it came when, you know, we were on board the theater Roosevelt.

[00:02:52] Brett: They just weren't trying to help quick enough. And I knew at the end of the day that, you know, as a leader and a captain of a ship. I'm ultimately responsible. And so I kind of bucked the system. I kind of, I'm gonna say, I don't think I jumped the chain of command, but I became very direct to my superiors in terms of what was going on and the help I needed and why I needed it now.

[00:03:28] Brett: So it was a soft landing as they say, but I think for many, they remember that moment, even though it was just, you know, one moment in my 30 year career, but one certainly that stands out and got national, if not international attention, just because like the rest of the world, we were all trying to figure out COVID and how to deal with it and what to do.

[00:04:01] Jason: It's an interesting situation that I think you found yourself in when people think of the armed forces, Navy, army, whatever service.

[00:04:42] Brett: Yeah.

[00:05:06] Jason: So how did you, how did you have the courage? Like, as you said, ultimately, it changed the last two years of your career. How did you have the courage to Go against what some of your training would have been which is you just follow the rules

[00:05:42] Brett: And you deal with those all the time, whether it's weather, operational requirements, whether it's the enemy or folks that you're worried about doing harm to your team. So you, that's kind of the world you live in. Um, nothing of course is black and white. And we, you know, I know that we all love movies and books where everything's very clear.

[00:06:20] Brett: Um, I knew, you know, it became pretty clear to me that. And we were not at war, you know, and if you're in war and you're in a combat scenario and you're a combat leader, you are going to take and you're going to accept risk to your crew. That's the reality. Um, you don't care as much about money in that regard.

[00:06:54] Brett: Well, now, you know, you are going to probably pay more attention to money. You're not as worried about time, but you also probably want zero risk to your crew. So on that spectrum of peacetime to wartime, those three factors when it comes to operational risk will change between time, people and money. And when you're in the, when you're in combat, you will accept risk to your crew.

[00:07:32] Brett: And we go through herculean efforts to minimize risk to people all the time. You know, whether in cranials, making sure that you know, you have sound protection, hearing protection, eye protection. Those are just part of our daily lives. So when you're faced with a pandemic, potentially, At least at that point, you know, it had been, you know, we were seeing this high percentage of fatality rates for a normal flu, at least.

[00:08:12] Brett: I decided that we were in a peacetime environment, we were safely pure side, and I wanted to minimize the risk to the crew. And I knew that, again, it wasn't going to be a clean path at Black and White. I knew there's going to be risk to my career as a result, because I'm trying to accelerate the attention.

[00:08:46] Brett: Um, I knew I could be fired for it, but I didn't think that was going to happen, to be honest. I thought that, all right, I'll get slapped around a little bit and people will muddle under the breath and I'll never make Admiral, I was, I was okay with that, um, cause I, in the end, in the end, of course, you know, it is a job.

[00:09:18] Brett: There's still a lot of gray, but I think that how I had been trained and how I tried to lead up to that point, I couldn't then back away from taking care of my crew, which I think is a leader's number one responsibility.

[00:09:42] Jason: The different ways you measure risk and that risk is situational. Okay. Most people in most corporate jobs aren't dealing with warfare in, in the sense of a military, uh, warfare, but, uh, certainly nonetheless, the risks that you are managing and mitigating do change from time to time. And, um, and you have to be, you have to be true to your role as a leader while managing those risks.

[00:10:34] Jason: Yeah. Um, so look, in the book, you cover a whole, whole range of, of. topics and share your wisdom, um, around, around leadership and through your experience and that, that really interesting lens of combat versus non combat time. Um, but chapter one, Never Turn Down Espresso. Now, uh, there's got to be a story or two behind that title.

[00:11:16] Brett: But, you know, I'd, I'd, uh, I'd come off a squadron command tour where I had a command of about squadron, about 250 people. We had 12 F 18s. We deployed all over the world. It was a phenomenal job. I got to fly. I got to lead. We traveled to the Philippines. We were actually down in Australia for a month. We'd go to Korea and Japan.

[00:11:54] Brett: And it's probably the perfect description. And when you first get there, you're overwhelmed by everything. But by the time you leave you're crying because it's just such a lovely place to live and the people are so friendly, but I was assigned to a NATO staff. And we were in charge of maritime ops around the Mediterranean, all the way from North Africa to Italy to Turkey, all the way out to Portugal, anywhere in the med really for air operations.

[00:12:35] Brett: I had a Turk. I had a couple of Italians. I had some folks from Portugal and some Brits as well. And, and it was just a slower pace, frustratingly slow, to be honest. Like I was just ready to go. And, and I had a guy that worked for me named Luigi, Luigi Fazio. And Luigi was an Italian lieutenant colonel in the Italian army.

[00:13:13] Brett: But man, I was ready to work. You know, I was ready to drink crappy coffee in the office and forgo the Italian espresso because I wanted to get stuff done in my mind. These PowerPoint briefs and these white papers and his reports were extremely important. Uh, and after a couple of weeks, Luigi come up to me and he said, Hey, chopper, you know, we invite you to get espresso.

[00:13:52] Brett: Here I am, the American with all the firepower you would ever want in a situation with NATO, and I was ready to work really hard. But Luigi kind of reminded me that, hey, there's more too. Relationships and alliances than just working hard. So I did, I went down and I, I had espresso with them at nine. And then of course they have espresso at 11 and then again at two and all day long, you're drinking espresso.

[00:14:31] Brett: So then fast forward about six, eight months later when Arab Spring kicks off in northern Africa and it started Tunisia and it encompassed Egypt and Libya and a lot of the countries there and NATO got called in to keep an eye on Libya, Gaddafi specifically, who was moving towards Benghazi from Tripoli and he was committing atrocities.

[00:15:07] Brett: Um, And this team that I initially had kind of not given credit to, um, they were with me 24 hours a day, seven days a week. We had shifts, obviously. And they were there working side by side. And we, you know, I realized then looking back the time we'd spent up front to develop the camaraderie, the teamwork, got to trust each other, you know, carried forward to when we really needed it.

[00:15:51] Brett: The quicker you're going to work, the quicker you can communicate and the more effective you'll be. And it's the essence of any real teamwork is to have trust. You can look at sports, you can look at the corporate level, but you know, you have to work hard. Trust isn't a given either. You're no one's just going to give you trust because you show up and you have a title or you have a fancy parking spot or a nice car that doesn't endear you any trust.

[00:16:22] Jason: What a great reminder for every leader to, to actually just spend some time with the people that you have the honor to, to learn, to lead and, and to serve.

[00:16:54] Jason: Even if they didn't necessarily know the nuances of your decision, they understood you fundamentally were on their side, that you were with them, one of them.

[00:17:19] Brett: Um, but it takes, you have to invest it again, trust isn't a given, but it's worth that time. And that allows you then to have that speed of trust and make. Quick, quick decisions down there. In fact, if you trust the people that work for you, then you can delegate more because now you trust them. You get to know them, you know them on a personal level, you know how to inspire them and that allows you as a leader, the more you can delegate and the quicker you can then make decisions and the more work you're going to get done.

[00:17:59] Brett: They have now, um, what they've done to get that trust and then how to go and how to improve it even more. And that's to your point, sometimes it's stepping away from the office. Sometimes it's just going to have a beer after work or, you know, go to the, go on a hike together or find opportunities outside of work.

[00:18:24] Jason: Great reminder for us, for us all. Now, when, uh, when you're not flying jets and, uh, leading thousands of people on a ship, uh, how do you like to spend your time? How do you, how do you relax and, and re energize yourself?

[00:19:01] Brett: That was my base. Um, once You know, once the kids got older and once I felt like we had a more stable location, I'm, I very much believe in the outdoors and finding time outside. And, and if I was lucky enough to be near the ocean, which the Navy often tends to send you near the ocean, uh, if there was good surf, I'd grab a surfboard and head out and get myself out on the water.

[00:19:41] Brett: Cause I think that today's society, we're so overwhelmed with, with information. Um, it's, you know, it's around you all the time. I read a study recently that said that the average leader. Has less than 28 minutes of uninterrupted time in the course of one day. So the most you'll ever have as a leader before someone wants to talk to you or ask you a question is about 28 minutes.

[00:20:24] Brett: And if, if all you get is one minute intervals, there's no way, you know, you're just, you can't physically think critically in that amount of time. Um, and so, you know, get yourself on the water for me, or go on a hike or get yourself in nature and don't bring your phone. And if you're Silly enough to bring your phone out on the surf, you know, the lineup, they're going to be laughing at you and probably cutting you out.

[00:21:02] Brett: Was that was some critical time for me that let me spend time away from all his, you know, all his distractions and think critically and strategically about personally my life, what my command was doing, what the ship's doing in between waves, of course, but, but I found that, you know, I think that everybody, every leader would, would, uh, would behoove them to spend a little bit of time and create that white space as I call it in my Navy career to think critically.

[00:21:47] Brett: I used to say, hey, you know, you guys worry about day to day. My mid level managers can worry about mid, you know, week to week. The more senior folk can worry about month to month and then the, you know, the executive staff, we better be thinking like six months to six years because no one else on the ship was.

[00:22:18] Jason: Yeah, I definitely agree that it's important as a leader that we, we find space to be able Quiet space.

[00:22:50] Jason: But if you're constantly getting interrupted. If you're not giving yourself permission to not be interrupted, I think that's the key. As a leader, so many leaders are taught, be busy, look busy, be doing something, visibly be doing something as opposed to, uh, giving yourself permission to be not available to having some time out so that you can have that time to To think, but also to recharge.

[00:23:51] Jason: But reflecting on your 30 years in service, dealing with coming up through the ranks with undoubtedly changes in the government's view of the military's role and even what what. The purpose of military has been over the years and certainly the U. S. Military taking the global leadership role that it does in for most Western nations.

[00:24:31] Jason: you think will live with you forever from a from a leadership point of view of what made you a great leader? Yeah.

[00:25:02] Brett: Um, and I see, you know, I saw time and time again in the military and I see it now on the outside as folks tend to forget that. You know, when you get this power, that's the right way to describe it. What you really have is a huge responsibility and that's the, you know, the responsibility of a leader to take care of people, uh, to inspire them, right, to motivate them, to build that teamwork that we talked about.

[00:25:53] Brett: 9 percent of we're going to do exactly what you say. If you want to paint the ship pink, they're going to paint the ship pink. Um, so you already have this incredible amount of authority and power as it were to inspire and get things done. I, with that, I found though an equal responsibility than to be kind to find a way then to.

[00:26:37] Brett: Um, I never, I tried to never do that. I always tried to look at it from their perspective and try to be kind because they're already, they'll come before you in that kind of case. And they're already, they already know they've made a mistake in most cases. And by being kind, what you've done is you've kind of, you've opened yourself up a little bit.

[00:27:12] Brett: And, and if the captain of the ship or the CEO of a company is willing to be kind, Forgiving at times they have to, it goes a long way. And I think that's, that's true. Even outside of leadership, I think there's sometimes you're driving around and in traffic, right? It's really easy to get angry with somebody who cuts you off.

[00:27:46] Brett: Or I'm gonna, you know, or in a foreign nation with a foreign country and you're talking about even made potential adversaries. It just went a long way and I never regretted it. Um, I, I would often regret when I was, I would get angry or respond in an angry manner to things, but when I was kind, I never regretted it.

[00:28:14] Brett: Find a way to be kind to people that you interact with day to day. Find a way to be kind to people you lead. Um, I guarantee you'll. You'll build that trust we talked about that'll relate, you know, relates to the teamwork. It's important for success. I guarantee that, you know, you'll, you'll have a better organization as a result.

[00:28:57] Jason: And then you'll, of course, you'll see leaders that praise publicly, but have more delicate conversations in private And I think that's an example of being kind. No one likes to be called out for their mistakes. They like it even less if it becomes a public display. But if you can find a way to coach someone through that and remember that the vast majority of employees, I think this is the same whether you're in the Navy or whether you're in a in the corporate world, people turn up wanting to do their job.

[00:29:59] Jason: What's the easiest way for people to, to stay in connection with you and, and to continue to, to learn from you?

[00:30:26] Brett: I've been doing it now full time since I retired and it's been, uh, it was a good decision because I enjoy it. You know, you use their leadership is so required out there, um, even in the nonprofit world to try to make a difference. But I'm inspired by what these folks do. Um, and yes, if you go to my website, surfwhenyoucan.

[00:31:06] Jason: And

[00:31:27] Brett: Well, we touched on a little bit. I would encourage anybody to find a local nonprofit they can get involved with, um, you know, it's, there's so many parallels to the corporate side and executive side of the military and the nonprofit world, but you know, there's a lot of people out there just trying to make a positive difference and they don't do it to get rich.

[00:32:03] Brett: I do it now more as a full time job, but I find it. And I think that, um, it helps you get familiar with the community and again, it kind of just gets you to know people that you live with and live around all the time. And I think that's important. And, you know, I focus on the homeless stuff here now in San Diego.

[00:32:33] Brett: That's probably your most precious commodity. And I guarantee you'll better be a better leader as a result of that.

[00:33:08] Jason: Brett, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show. Thank you again for taking the time to, to share your thoughts with us today.

today.