In this episode of The Athletes Compass, Dr. Allie Wagener, a licensed psychologist specializing in sport and performance psychology, joins Paul Warloski, Marjaana Rakai, and Dr. Paul Laursen to unpack athlete burnout: what it is, how it differs from fatigue or a training slump, and how endurance athletes can recognize the warning signs before they become overwhelming. The conversation explores mood shifts, loss of joy, identity, fear of failure, recovery, autonomy, social connection, and the importance of reconnecting with your “why.” Dr. Wagener emphasizes that burnout recovery is not about rushing back to intensity, but about rebuilding trust, consistency, psychological safety, and fun in sport.

Key Takeaways

• Burnout is different from ordinary fatigue or a temporary slump. Fatigue may improve with rest, and slumps still usually include motivation, while burnout is more chronic and can feel like depletion, apathy, and loss of pride in performance.
• Early warning signs include mood shifts, irritability, slower recovery from tough sessions, loss of enthusiasm, “I have to” thinking, zoning out, or becoming hyper-focused on discomfort.
• Self-awareness is a major protective factor. Athletes can check in before and after training by asking how they feel, where their focus is, and whether they felt engaged or committed.
• Reconnecting with your “why” helps athletes separate performance outcomes from deeper sources of meaning, joy, and identity.
• Recovery should be treated as part of training, not as an optional extra. Sleep, nutrition, hormone regulation, memory consolidation, and mental health all depend on recovery.
• Joy and play matter. Dr. Wagener encourages athletes to adopt a “Sandlot mentality”: less structure, more play, more connection, and more fun.
• Training with others, changing locations, removing the watch, and adding novelty can help athletes rebuild motivation.

• Dr. Allie Wagener
• Performance Psychologist | Minneapolis MN + Virtual | Sport & Executive Coaching
• Paul Warloski - Simple Endurance Coaching
• Marjaana Rakai | Nordic Performance Lab

I do think allowing yourself time to rebuild and grow back is going to be really important, which will influence goal setting, right? What you're able to add on as you reengage in your sport.

I think the other thing is acceptance that fear, doubt, worry, questioning, wondering, over analyzing, probably not if, but when it will show up,

Hello and welcome to the Athletes Compass podcast where we navigate training, fitness and health for everyday athletes. Have you ever woken up and dreaded the thought of training, not just because you're tired, not because your legs are sore, but because something inside just, just quit? You're not alone. Today we get to talk about burnout with Dr. Allie or Alexandra Wagener.

Dr. Wagener is a licensed psychologist specializing in sport and performance psychology based in Minneapolis, Minnesota. A former sport athlete and collegiate soccer player, she now helps athletes of all levels from weekend warriors to elite competitors build mental resilience, prevent burnout, and reconnect with their joy of sport. As a marathoner and half marathoner herself, she brings both clinical experience and personal experience to helping athletes

sustain their passion for the long haul. So first of all, Allie, thank you very much for joining us.

Thank you for having me.

So how do you define burnout, athlete burnout, or just being tired or in a training slump?

Yeah, great question. And I think just understanding that for each person might look a little bit different is first and foremost. But I do think those three concepts are different.

So let me explain. So when I think about like fatigue, we all know what that physically feels like and mentally feels like. Think of that as like you've had a really hard training load or it's been a, you've exerted yourself mentally, you've really focused all day long. Usually when I think about like fatigue, ⁓ a night's rest, a little backing off maybe the next day might be kind of the cure for that.

Right? That's typical fatigue that we have, whether that's emotionally, mentally, or physically. I think about a slump is kind of, we all have them, especially in endurance sports, we're gonna have like the roller coaster up and downs and kind of riding that wave that is gonna happen. But the key with slumps is our motivation typically is still intact.

right, our kind of enjoyment of the sport. ⁓ Now, we may not particularly like an outcome that happens, but usually we're able to kind of recover from that with the slumps. And then I think when we talk about burnout, I see that as more chronic, right? Think of it's like a slow leak.

⁓ Right, it's not the water gushing. It's simply the slow leak that probably will do the most damage to your home if you have ever had water damage. And so I think when burnout happens, ⁓ you will see mental and physical exhaustion. And I think exhaustion is different than fatigue. Like you are depleted despite maybe efforts to...

like refuel in whatever sense that means. I think that your accomplishment, how we're like defining that, that also will change when we're burned out, right? We don't really get the same, I guess, sense of like pride in what we did if we're not burned out. And then lastly, I would say, right, we just kind of almost have like an apathy, like we stop caring.

as much, right? Kind of like we start to go through the motions people will talk about.

⁓ I'm going to jump right in here because I'm listening to you and I'm like, yeah, check, check, check, check, check. And then I'm thinking, ⁓ it's almost like physical overtraining. So first fatigue, we know physical fatigue is, daily. And, we need to back off and recover just like you said with the fatigue, mental fatigue, physical fatigue. And then you were... ⁓

You

talking about slump and riding that wave. And that's like, to me, feels like what we want to achieve at certain points of our training, physically we want to, overreach, but we know then we have to back off and then, recover and let our body and mind recover from it. And then ⁓ burnout really kind of like...

reminds me of overtraining. You're just like not feeling it. Your head is in the cloud, like dark cloud, not the happy cloud, a dark cloud and nothing you do is kind of enough or good enough or you don't feel like celebrating. And I think after ⁓ my last Iron Man, was like, I was completely like burned out, but I didn't understand it that time.

Now, looking back, can recognize those signs.

Yeah, absolutely. And we'll all probably experience all of them at some point. We just hope we stay away from that burned out component.

Yeah.

Ellie, could you be a little more, ⁓ give some examples. You talked about apathy and the lack of pride. What are some of the early warning signs that ⁓ you might get if you are heading towards burnout before an athlete even realizes it?

Yeah, they've actually done quite a bit of research on this and one of the biggest warning signs is mood shifts.

which we all experience all different types of ups and downs with emotions daily. But think about it as almost like your check engine light like comes on, right? That's gonna be your mood versus like your engine failure. That's when we're in burnout, right? And so I think for each of us starting to recognize individually what those warning signs might be. And this could be little things like people will talk about like irritability.

⁓ It'll be just almost like annoyance and that could be with other people on the road you're running with. This could be the weather, right? Like these small probably inconveniences. Now maybe dig a little deeper, right? It could be things like.

I think lots of just enthusiasm for maybe things that we used to enjoy about our training runs or our lifts. Now they just become a little bit more flat, right? Or start to become like a chore to do. I have to run today. God, I have to these miles in, right? And we start to hear a lot of I have to's versus like the I get to's. And then I think when we do have a tough training experience,

Hmm.

we start to notice the recovery of it takes a little bit longer. And right, like our motivation to get back at it is a little bit stunted.

Mm-hmm. Check, check, again.

Hmm.

So mood, you know, the code word with my wife is, grumpy. That's what I tell her to say to me, you know, if she starts noticing it, just, she doesn't need to say anything, you know, more than that, just, hey grumpy. And it's like, ⁓ okay, you know, checking myself. ⁓

but mood shifts, loss of enthusiasm, slower recovery, those are all mood shifts that can be a warning sign.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think too, one of the things I don't know, mean, sometimes, right, everybody when they're participating in any endurance sport, especially if it's a longer run or training, our mind can wander, right? That's normal, that's human. But sometimes when they start to look at what attention to details, attention to our experience, people kind of almost zone out and not be in the flow state of mind. It's more, right, you're like, what did I just do?

Hmm.

Right? Or on the flip side, we get very hyper fixated on a particular thing. And if we talk more about like burnout, we'll talk about like pain sensitivity ⁓ and kind of hyper focusing on certain pain signals or experiences that maybe we wouldn't maybe want to. But those can all be kind of like little bulbs flashing to say something's off.

Like obsessed.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Throw my geek out hat on, Allie. And it reminds me of the, ⁓ I guess, in mental physiology, the default mode network. Have you heard about that? Because that's the monkey mind, ultimately, right? And if your brain is spinning around in the old default mode network and you just can't focus on what you're doing and you're just like...

Okay.

And you're distracted ultimately, and you're not ⁓ paying attention ultimately in terms of what others around you are saying to you. These are big indicators. ⁓ Yeah, and it's almost like if you're having problems with your default mode network, I know it's associated with things like depression and just all of kind of the...

Yeah.

symptoms that you've described already in the podcast here. So yeah, like it's, do you, mean, if you have all of that, what is your, where do you start in terms of making progress back to normal state where we want to get to alleviate this?

Yeah. Well, I think again, as these early warning signs are happening, I think what you're speaking to is right. It kind of starts. It can potentially lead to like mental health diagnoses, right? Like clinical depression, anxiety. And people will talk about, right? Like they start to dread runs or they start to have that constant.

worry of what it's gonna feel like or be like or am I gonna be good enough, right? So that self-talk will really shift also. ⁓ And so knowing yourself, I think with anything to be a great athlete, no matter what level you are, it starts with that self-awareness. Like what's kind of your baseline, right? And then what are the shifts that might...

come and go, right? Like it's gonna happen. But when they start to consistently happen, right? Those should also be indicators to you that again, the wiring is maybe off, right? Like it's not a low battery at this point that I just need to take a weekend off or lessen my mileage, right? Something wiring is going on that isn't quite working for me.

Right? And so one of the biggest things when we look at protective factors, we really always want to start with that self-awareness, right? Where is my baseline and what shifts happen? But if we start to notice the shifts happening, I always go back to your why, right? Purpose.

because what we see a lot of times with athletes, and again, this could be for medical professionals, business professionals, is their identity and their self-worth gets really tied into performance outcomes, right? And people will talk about, well, especially like sport, it starts to become a job, right? Or if I don't do this equals XYZ will happen. And so kind of how your relationship with your sport

you

I would always start there. So it would be self-awareness, your why, why are you doing this? Why is this important to you? Right? And then third, it would start to talk about what is your relationship with running? And when people start to get burned out, we see a huge shift.

Hmm.

And then that relationship becomes very negative and everything associated with that has a pretty negative kind of feedback loop consequence.

Yeah. Yeah, no doubt.

So I don't know if I

answered your question or just went on 15 different tangents, but it brings up a lot.

I know. I think we're still getting to the heart. We're

you

still going through and working to the heart of the problem here, And we're continuing to move down these ⁓ symptoms that I'm sure the listener is resonating with, right? And then that lack of joy that you're really kind of teasing out, right? And the motivation. ⁓

But so much of that, again, keep going on the default mode network. But I know it's basically this area in the brain. I forget the different structures. There's these three structures, and it's looping around. And it's almost like when you're sitting in your monkey mind, and you can't, she said this, and you're swimming and whatnot in these various different problems that you might be having. And it's looping around in this track that you can't get out of. And you can't get out of

negative mindset. And I know, again speaking personally, that there are these strategies and these methods that you can do, there's a variety of them, to get out of that default mode network. I know one of them that's probably like...

the crazy one, everyone's gonna think I'm a bit of a nut job, but that's okay, but it's floating, MJ knows, because she goes and floats every once in a while. But it's like these, there's this sensory deprivation tanks, and it's basically, it's imagine floating in Epson salts, and having everything completely black, but what studies have actually shown, and this is, I forget the Brain Center in Oklahoma that,

that basically it's a whole clinical setup and a research ⁓ setup, but they show that you could get out of this just through 45 minutes of floating, all these various different depressive disorders that kind of assist with that. And that's kind of like if you really need to get out of this monkey mind and that problem, that's one sort of solution. But there's other ones too, right? Exercise is one, being in nature and walking.

these meditation, all these various methods are short-term means where you can have some power to get out of this burnout problem ultimately that's potentially, you know, it's happening. ⁓ And every person listening is gonna have a different context that they're considering here and how they got to that burnout. It could be physical, it could be mental, it could be emotional.

But at the end of the day, you probably have a monkey mind default mode network thing going on in the background that's contributing to this. And we need solutions to get out of this. And that's really, guess, where I'm sort of going with the question. I'm always trying to find solutions.

Yeah, yeah. Well, an exercise I do, kind of going back to like your purpose, your why, that I will typically do with my athletes is just if you took a piece of paper and you wrote down, why do I do what I do? Right? What do I love about it? Like when I started, why did I choose this?

Right. And oftentimes, so I played soccer and one of the things I still remember, I'm retired now, but one of the things I will remind myself of is just the smell of fresh cut grass. Like early morning trainings. I like, I will think of that. Like that was like a protective factor for my love. Now it wasn't the only reason I played soccer, right? You can get that for a lot of others.

you

But it was also playing under the lights was amazing. Right. ⁓ Or I just ran the Twin Cities Marathon in October this last year and the energy and support of the community like a community aspect was wonderful. But if you take time to kind of think about why are you doing this? What is your why? And then leave that aside. And then if you make a list to say on average

before I go for runs, before I go do something, where does my focus go? What am I paying attention to? And oftentimes when people are starting to dip into that burnout, those lists are very different. You're always gonna have two lists. But this list of our why,

purpose tends to go in the background. It's like, gosh, I haven't thought about this in a really long time because I'm focused on my time, my pace, how I look in my outfit, right? Am I going to be better? How bad is this going to hurt? Right? I mean, we could all come up with those lists, but that is all that those evaluations of ourselves are going to, again, to your point, go to that feedback loop. But we miss that protective factor and actually a treatment factor for getting out.

No, I love it. it's like, at the end of the day, it's like you're, you've just described a method also to get out of your default mode network. You're changing the focus. Like, I'm gonna smell the grass. I'm gonna focus in my mind on the smell of the grass that makes me happy. I'm gonna focus on my why. And again, it's intent at the end of the day. And that's with any of these methods to get out of your...

monkey mind and get yourself back on track, away from burnout, which is what we're talking about, is like, you have these methods that get you focusing and pointed in the right direction again. Because we fall out of it at the end of the day in this depressive condition.

Yeah.

Right. And they've also shown a lot of research. The more success we have sometimes as we're building confidence and trust in our bodies and our mind, there's a whole element of pressure that can come on too to repeat what we have had or what we've been doing. And while that's great, that can also add a whole nother layer that can contribute to burnout.

And so what we find is, again, I keep talking protective factors, but is having an identity outside of sport, having activities, strengths of yours, because we get very tied to that, especially the more success we have. Right. And then it's like, well, I ran at this pace. Why can't I do it now? Right. And so that evaluation can be really hard ⁓ to experience.

Yeah.

I'm really glad that we're going there because as perimenopause has hit me really hard, I found like last year I started slowing down and it was really eating me up because I've been quite focused on performance goals and getting faster, right? I wanted to get faster and faster.

inevitably we're gonna, well, at least I met a wall and started to get, slower. ⁓ And it was really eating me up. So I had to start like not looking at my watch and not putting those goals, like performance goals on my, on my calendar. I like just signed up for some races to have fun.

And just to remind myself, like you can line up without having to, you know, like try to PR every time. And just like, I just tried to like enjoy the moment of, doing a race or doing an event. but yeah, it's definitely hard as we get older to not be able to run as fast as we did before.

Yeah, absolutely. And we are, I appreciate you sharing that. And I think a lot of people can relate to that. And when we are burned out, we are properly not recovered, right? And if we think about recovery as like,

you

training, which I wish we looked at it as training, not as like something else we have to do. But that's where hormone regulation is happens during recovery. Right. That's where our memories are consolidated when we sleep and take care of ourselves. And if you're battling that position in your life as we age, that's going to make it even harder to do it. But yet we still look at ourselves oftentimes as how we used to be, which can have benefits, but it also can be really hard.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

than when our body doesn't respond that way. And then we feel like we did something wrong or what's wrong with us.

Yeah, yeah. ⁓

Right. Yeah. And then you're just like, well, is it over? becoming, like finding a new identity from a racer that always wants to get better to, yeah, I don't know. X. What is the label? I don't know. I haven't found my label yet. It's like, I think I haven't had, I haven't given up on the racer identity yet, but.

Maybe it's just comes and goes, you know.

And I think what you're speaking to is right when we talk about identity is having a little bit of psychological flexibility Right that it maybe we don't have to necessarily be in a bucket, right? We're always evolving and growing and changing and maybe we can have

Mm.

multiple labels or multiple ways that we show up and see ourselves. And with that being said, is you are still a racer, right? You can still be competitive, right? So to have those long-term goals and aspirations with the flexibility, the process to get there might look a little bit different than it did 15 years ago.

Mm.

How do you tell the difference between the kind of physical, not feeling recovered burnout and mental fatigue? How do you tell the difference between those two?

Well, I think I would start with how do we look at recovery? Again, I truly believe recovery is part of training, right? And thinking really clearly to think about, what does my recovery look like? Am I giving it enough kind of attention or respect that it...

Right.

that it's needed, right? Because sometimes I think that's where I would start with. And if those feel like we are checking the boxes for that, then I think it's stepping back to say, okay, what is this turned into? What is this about? Right? This is not just I'm mentally zoning out because I'm tired and I have work stress and my family, right? But there are some core pieces that are pulling me away and that can look really different. ⁓

for everybody. But the typical things to repair those like fatigue aren't working.

So what are the key things, Allie, that are going to help us recover what's in your bucket list there for recovery?

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, well so again, a lot of it is within your control. So I think, right, so once you can check the boxes of is your sleep, is your nutrition, right, is your activities outside of your sport, right, are those fulfilling to you? Are we giving that the attention they deserve? Then I would say is, again, when we start to think about when we're in burnout, how do we come back?

Right? How do we pull ourselves out of it? One of the things that we look at is joy. I think that you like spoke to it earlier, right? It's like, how do we have fun? I describe it as like have the Sandlot mentality. Have you guys seen that movie? Okay, it's a baseball movie, but it's basically these kids. It's a fabulous movie, by the way. ⁓

Mm-mm.

No.

And it's these kids who basically just go to the field, they're young and they just play pickup games of baseball. It's not structured, it's not regulated in any ways. They just go, they're spending time with their buddies and they just have fun. And then the movie goes into.

They lose Babe Ruth's ball. So I won't spoil it for you, but they gotta get it back. But I was thinking about how do we have this mindset, kind of like this childlike mindset of just play? I have to tell you a quick story. I went for a run yesterday. It was 81 degrees here in Minnesota. And my husband was golfing. And so I took my kids to my parents. said, mom, I showed mom and dad. We watched them for like a little bit so I can go for a run around the lake.

I'm

Hmm.

Woo!

And they were like, sure. So I was so excited, went for a run, came back. We went to the park with kids. And on the way home, my daughter was driving home and she goes, mommy, did you have fun on your run? And it was like one of those that caught me off guard because I had not.

Aww.

I did actually have a lot of fun, but I didn't think about it because I was like, okay, how do I schedule it in? I'm going to quick go as fast as I can to get back to get back. So my parents aren't watching them too long, right? And just kind of so I'll feel better. Like I knew that, but I, don't know the last time I thought about, gosh, how fun is it going to be that I just get to go do this? Like it was like, I, just caught me. And I was like, I did have fun.

Yeah.

Hmm

Yeah.

And I wish we had that Sandlot more fun, more joy within that. So then I know you're right. Exactly. Right. So what do do? Well, you go back to your why, but we know group participation. Now, most of us, my guess is, do you guys run mostly by yourself?

How do we find it? Yeah.

Yes.

Right? Or ride, run, right? I think a lot of us, know from lot of research, right, with group activity, we're actually going to work probably harder, right? And people rate it more enjoyable. Now, that's not always the case for us, but when you can add in other, even one other person, or group run, or ride, or activity, ⁓ that is going to help. go ahead.

Usually ride by myself, but yes.

Yeah.

⁓ we have this ⁓ Velocity partner with Athletica, the training platform that we are all part of. it's an interactive coaching session that MJ runs for us and Paul. And it's just to your point, it's incredible how much we all get in terms of the energy and how much fun we have riding the same workout.

Amazing!

together in a kind gamified atmosphere. And even though, granted, it would be ideal if we were all in the same sort of room together, it's incredible that you actually feel like you are all together. And then we develop these relationships, and it just gets better and better as we go. to your point, that interaction of that human-to-human connection is so important. ⁓

Yes.

And that's actually also on the list of ways to get out of your DMJ. So it's really cool.

Right. Well, and again, we, nobody wants to be alone. And if you think about, if you're in the midst of burnout, probably your mood is going to be a little bit up and down, right? Or a little bit lower. If like I was saying more irritable or I think Paul, like you were saying grouchy, right? Like, and so one of the best things is to have that human connection, to feel supported and to be like, gosh.

I feel off today or my legs feel so heavy or I just, I didn't want to be here. And now someone says, me too. Right now you're like, gosh, I'm not alone. And right there, you are going to have like a boost in mood. I would say, you know, I could keep going on and on, but I would add, you know, changing locations, like spicing it up is going to be really important to get out of burnout.

You

Mm.

Right? So whether that is finding a new place to do your activity. And sometimes we're limited, right? ⁓ But or running without a watch, like bringing joy or fun, having a mini competition potentially, you know, ⁓ hey, let's try to get this many runs in this week or this many mileage. And at the end of we'll get a prize. Right. There is rewards. Rewards systems work. You know, and I think

Mm-hmm.

Ultimately, we want to come back to that intrinsic motivation. But while we're healing and getting there and building that trust back with our relationship with running or cycling or any endurance sport that we have for that matter, I think we want to use any resource that we can.

100%. I just went to Norway to visit. ⁓ Norway is my home in my heart. That's where I feel like I belong. just going to Norway felt so much better. But normally here in Texas, I train alone and the environment is not ideal. It's super flat, hot, humid. None of those things I enjoy.

So just changing the environment was so good for me. But then ⁓ also training together with my friends, we went to one of the mountains and went for a cross country ski session up in the mountains. It's just gorgeous, beautiful ⁓ above the tree line. And we had so much fun. We were just talking and, suddenly one of us were just jumping off because we were like, ⁓

off the tracks, they hadn't done the tracks yet because it was snowy earlier or whatever. And so we just played in the nature with cross country skis, just jumping off and just having fun. And then on the way down, we suddenly just busted a move, just dancing on the skis. And it was just epic, like so much more fun. And we talked about

Thank

you

Thank

anything like between, death and just having fun. was so, it was so powerful for my mental health to experience. Like it was a perfect day for me. ⁓ So yeah, just changing the environment and, you know, being social while moving is so, so potential.

Thank

when I think you even speak to, it wasn't even about the activity necessarily, right? It goes back to that connection with yourself and ⁓ the people you were with and just like having a lightness. And I think all of us could probably use that a little bit more in everything we do in life. I think we'd all be not only improve performance, but it'd be heck of a lot more fun.

Mmm.

Yeah, yeah, so true.

Allie, you talked earlier about kind of three things that ⁓ help with the process, know, self-awareness purpose or your why and relationship with sport. Can you talk more about the self-awareness and what you meant by that?

Yeah, yeah. Well, and I'll give you, to add to that, I'll give you a couple more strategies to use also. ⁓ But I think...

In anything we need to have, again, this baseline of where our mind is at, where our body is at in order to stay safe. Right? And I think emotionally that's the same thing. And so when I talk to coaches, when I talk to athletes about kind of their pre and post training or competition experience, having some, I don't know, just questions for yourself. Like, how am I feeling today?

Where's my focus? And sometimes too, some people like numerics on a one to 10 scale. And not only just how did I do the performance outcome base of it, but the processes. Did I feel engaged? Did I feel committed to what I was doing? And so I think that kind of almost like self check-in, and that can be from thoughts, emotions, sensations, and then also physically.

⁓ I think would be a great way to start. And I always like a technique I really like is like a one to two minute body scan. Have you guys, it's tied into the realm of mindfulness and being in the present moment without judgment for ourself, right? To kind of accept what is true for me right now. But our mind really gets that like blurry sometimes because we have judgment and we don't like it and we don't want it, right?

Hmm.

but it is here and the people that have the ability to stay there typically do the best. And so to start to train that is this body scan where you can start at the top of your head and you would just shut your eyes for one to two minutes and you're just describing and checking in. Okay, how does the top of my head feel? Okay, what about my temples? Is there any tension? Is there any stress? And I always like to think about like you have like a colored marker. So maybe you pick

blue, right? And any stress I'm going to kind of color in, okay, I'm feeling like a little stress right here. I'm going to like color it in my mind, right? And you go down in my jaw. Well, most of us are going to probably carry some tension in our jaw. And for a lot of women, we'll carry it in our shoulders and our necks, right? And so if we just had you go through each of your body coloring in, it's just checking in what you need.

So then it's okay before my run, maybe I have to stretch a little bit more, warm up, or I'm gonna be really intentional about my breath during my run to kind of give it to my shoulders to release them. So now we're doing some preventative work, but also some mindfulness to get out if we are maybe feeling very tense and we weren't even aware of it.

Kind like if you get home at the end of the night, have you guys got home and you're like, oh my gosh, I have such a bad headache. And you're like, how? And probably it was building throughout the day, but we're so busy, we don't notice it. Does that happen to you guys? Right, that's probably lack of awareness of our mental and physical being.

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

yeah.

I would say that ⁓ that self-awareness and then I would say this ties into goal setting, right, is are we appropriately setting goals? One, based out of our values, what's important to us, right? And then also are they attainable on that given day or week?

And I think this can be really challenging for high level athletes to be able to have that flexibility to potentially shift or adjust because, nope, this is what my training log says. I have to hit this today, right? And maybe because of whatever reason, you may not be able to and allowing yourself some wiggle room while also pushing yourself to stay accountable, right? I think that's a really hard balance, but that always starts with that self-awareness.

Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I think of the, the Athletica listener here that's got their Athletica program in there. ⁓ and we have this really cool feature in the, in the platform called the workout wizard, because exactly you should have that awareness. And if the context changes and you need something a little bit different, you shouldn't be, scared about changing the plan. And, the wizard gives you viable options to change your plan.

on to keep doing potentially something. And that includes right down to meditation and self-awareness, kind of like what you're describing. So yeah, that's a really good point. And I think it's from my own coaching practice, that's actually something I'm always trying to teach my athletes so that they are empowered. It's just teaching awareness, Teaching them feel.

Yeah.

Because the more you can actually empower that athlete about their own personal awareness, the more they're empowered in any given context, in any given moment to make the right choice and not be scared to make that choice or make that change and trust themselves. So love that point.

Well, can I add to one thing you just said that I love? And the research backs it up with autonomy. So when people feel like they have a say or an influence in their training in what's happening, and part of that starts with awareness, they actually comply more. They're actually better at what they do.

please.

right? And it builds trust and confidence within themselves to say, can make this decision, right? So, wow, you're going to tell me what to do and that's why I hired you and this is great, but I also am going to have some influence, right? It's such a protective factor for burnout also.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for sure. And you just think of, if you've got that combo, just think of how much more powerful your training program has now become. And that, you know, or how much more effective you are at making the right progress if you've developed that self-awareness and the confidence to make those changes. And imagine having a plan that's, you know, flexible enough to be able to ⁓ help you with your confidence in making those changes.

you're moving the right way, you're moving forward in the right direction, as opposed to just doing whatever the plan says, ⁓ doing something because it says something. ⁓ And when you know deep down inside that little man or woman inside is saying, just doesn't feel right today. You gotta learn to trust that and make those calls, in my opinion.

Yeah, and I give you a lot of credit for just giving your athletes space to have that discussion and discover that. Right. Again, you're truly working as a team. And I always think you're kind of working as a team with your mind, too. You can either fight with like fight against it or can kind of be an ally for you. You might not always like what it's telling you or your bodies. Right. But it's your relationship with yourself is the longest and most strongest relationship you will ever have in your whole life.

And so how we're treating ourselves, right? And responding, giving it space to have these discussions and then coaches like you, right? That's prime for optimal performance and enjoyment.

Hmm.

Yeah, I believe so.

So let's say we're feeling burned out. And it sounds like it's not necessarily a clinical definition, but it's kind of a sliding scale. Like we're feeling this way and it's developing, it's getting there. But how can we... ⁓

How can we come back without feeling like we're relapsing and falling back on the things that we used to do? How do we prevent relapse, I guess is the question.

Yeah, that's a great question. I would say what you want to start with is probably really clear, almost expectations. And this is a hard one, right? What your goals, what your expectations are, because oftentimes those can be not aligned. And so really thinking through what is that gradual progression back?

Hmm.

Because

ultimately, coming back from burnout, just like an injury, the number one thing is safety, like psychological and physical safety. So it's rebuilding that trust. I think I've said it multiple times today, but rebuilding that trust with yourself that you're gonna be okay.

Mm-hmm.

that you've learned, right? And that now you have the opportunity to do things different or to see things differently and you're better equipped, right, to see those red flags. So I do think allowing yourself time to rebuild and grow back is going to be really important, which will influence goal setting, right? What you're able to add on as you reengage in your sport.

I think the other thing is probably some acceptance that fear, doubt, worry, questioning, wondering, over analyzing, probably not if, but when it will show up, right? Like normalizing that that is part of this like reintegration process.

And then I would say the last thing is it's all about consistency, right? As we get back, it's not about intensity, it's not about PRing, it's about consistent. Because again, we are going to rebuild that confidence and trust in yourself and your body to get back to where you want to be. And I do think when we recover well, we can actually be better athletes than we were before.

if we've taken that time to learn and grow.

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Well said.

So you think we could become better athletes because we go through that process? Is that what you're saying?

Absolutely.

Yeah, that's part.

Like I want you

to think about your hard race you guys have had.

And when you think about that hard race, maybe, maybe not the next day or the day after that, but maybe some weeks, months down the road, was that a game changer in how you did something moving forward?

Hmm.

that it influence any type of approach, training, recovery to change something.

Hmm.

Right.

100%.

Mm-hmm.

Do you want an example? So 2024, I trained for Ironman Texas and then four months after Ironman World Champs. Not only is Texas very, very hot during summer, so I was doing heat training by running, which was mentally really, really hard because I hate heat. And ⁓ I did all my long bike rides.

Yes, that would be great.

on the train inside and it was so boring, but I told myself you can do it like you're a tough cookie. Like you will get through this. you know, like I can hype myself up doing crazy six hour rides, six and a half hour rides inside, but there was no balance and I took the choice of

understanding that there is no balance when you're doing these big things and something has to go. And I think like afterwards, would like, if I were to do that again, I would definitely go seek other training environments more than just, you know, maybe I would run indoors a little bit more. Maybe I would actually travel and get some, you know, outdoor rides in.

other than, stay inside for six, seven hours.

Thank

So

that experience has fundamentally changed your approach and how you're going to set yourself up for success.

Yeah,

I would say I would never do a six and a half hour ride inside again, ever. Those days are over.

you

But how would you know that if you didn't experience that, right? So if we tie this back to burnout, I think there's a lot of opportunity to see this as almost feedback to ourselves of what's working and what's not working.

Yeah.

Yeah, a hundred percent. And I'm a nature lover. I love being outside. ⁓ just pushing against that ⁓ during those months, we're like, what am I doing? Why? So yeah, I think that took some of the joy and enjoyment out of my training. And it took me a long time to, know, wanting to get back on the bike.

Yeah, they have a saying where we find pain, we find our values.

Hmm

Yeah, for sure. To me, it's the other key thing, it's speaking to and going down these routes. And you just described one, MJ, is like you're developing wisdom, whether you know it or not. We're all on a journey and there's no right or wrong decisions that you've made. It's just, you you've learned from all of them. And I think the other really important point that MJ made here was around balance.

No. Thanks.

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

I keep going back to the default mode network, DMN, and I just had to quickly review what it is. it's just for clarity on the podcast here, this is set of interconnected brain regions that are active during rest and inward focus thought, essentially when you're not engaging in a demanding or external task. So if you are engaging in a task, whether it's exercise, whether it's the...

the mindfulness stuff that Allie was talking about. ⁓ You know, you were, yeah, that kind of, it both contributes to the depression and potentially the chronic fatigue that Allie's talking about, but it also, ⁓ it's also very important for reflection and thinking and all these sorts of things. And back to MJ's point, it's about balance and you kind of have to, you can't have too much of these six hour rides. That's, you know, you're risking,

a lot of stuff that's potentially going to be too much in a loop, ⁓ But going like, yeah, so it's just like, I think it just kind of comes back to balance. And you got to have those reflection things, but make sure you get out of it sometimes as well.

Burn up. ⁓

Allie, what have we missed about this discussion about burnout? What have we not talked about?

Well, I would say, you know, as a couple of things can popped up in my head, ⁓ when we're burned out, our perception of how hard something is of our effort putting in gets really skewed. And so sometimes again, having an accountability partner or checking in with ourselves that, okay, I feel like I'm really exerting a lot in it's but.

it's a lens or it's like a cloud, a haze that goes over us. So we sometimes don't see things as clearly. And so I think sometimes again, that goes back to that awareness of where do we start and is there a change that happens, right? Because in any endurance sport, discomfort will show up, right? And the best athletes are the ones that almost make space for that discomfort.

whether that's heaviness, thoughts that maybe are not our favorite thoughts, right? But it's creating space for that while still staying committed to what's important to us, or again, our why, right? And again, that sounds great in theory, but it's really hard to do, especially if we have kind of dug that hole.

So I would say that would be another piece to have the listeners remind themselves of. And then I would say my last component would be, I might be diverting a little bit off of burnout, but I do think.

Talking about fear and fear of failure and what can show up for people can definitely exacerbate burnout and the pressure that comes with fear and what failure means whether that's not hitting a pace a placement in a competition

Hmm.

Hmm.

losing to someone that you've been training with. ⁓ So really having some kind of respect of how we're looking at that, but not putting that on a pedestal where it can kind of dictate, like be in control of us of what we do or do not do, right? Kind of bringing that back to the autonomy of why is it important to us and still having the opportunity to do something really, really cool that a lot of people are not doing.

Yeah, tough one. Tough one. That darn ego of ours, just, know, ⁓ it's never satiated and we always want to fill it. I know as MJ and I have been chatting about, as we age, you've got to, yeah, kind of, as we get older, we have to of ⁓ reset our expectations. And if we do, I think we're going to be better off. ⁓ But it's not easy because the ego just...

Yeah.

Can't be satiated.

But even how you're kind of like having some humor with it, I think that can be ⁓ a protective factor and a tool we can use to kind of make light of situations, even though maybe that is those comments are probably heavier than we than we know. Right. But using humor is also a way to and again, it sounds like MJ, you did that wonderfully with your group ⁓ to enjoy it. Right.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, there's been a really important theme, you've made throughout and then you keep going back to it. It's joy, right? Like, we've got to be enjoying the life that we have and the training that we're doing. And ⁓ yeah, I think we're, and if you're tuning into this podcast, you're probably, you're, maybe you've been, you you're questioning that. And so make sure you, yeah, make sure you go and get that everyone, listeners, because we, yeah, it's.

Mm-hmm.

Life is short and it's meant to be lived and there should be as much joy as we can put in it, like ⁓ your daughter reminded you,

Yeah, absolutely.

Allie, thank you so much for joining us today and bringing the joy to us and we appreciate your presence.

Thank you. appreciate you having this discussion and we can all probably relate to and hopefully prevent going down that spiral.

Thank you for listening today to the Athletes Compass podcast. Take a moment now, subscribe, share, and let's keep navigating this endurance adventure together. Improve your training with the science-based training platform, Athletica, and join the conversation at the Athletica Forum. For Dr. Allie Wagener Marjaana Rakai and Dr. Paul Laursen I'm Paul Warloski and this has been the Athletes Compass podcast. Thank you so much for listening.