Show Notes:

The current negative sentiment and noise around equity and inclusion can feel overwhelming. At such times it makes sense to step back and celebrate the work of organisations steadfast in their vision (there are many of them around). The Taylor Bennett Foundation (TBF) is one such organisation dedicated to increasing racial and ethnic diversity in the communications industry that has been doing some stellar work to deliver on its purpose. I recently took the opportunity to invite Koray Camgöz, the new CEO of the TBF and one of the nicest people I know in the UK PR industry to talk about his priorities and focus.

Koray has been a staunch advocate for building a fairer and more inclusive industry from his time at the PRCA, including championing the work of PRCA REEB and the EIAB. Always extending himself to support the cause. So, it was great to hear him reflect on his experiences including his recent stint at Ketchum and how it has shaped/prepared him for his current role as CEO. We also spoke about 👇🏾 👇🏾 👇🏾

👉🏾 Systemic barriers that have historically hindered diversity, such as reliance on unpaid internships

👉🏾 The need to cultivate a supportive culture that welcomes and nurtures diverse talent

👉🏾 Koray argued for a steadfast commitment to DEI initiatives, linking inclusion to organizational success and innovation

👉🏾 Why leadership accountability is paramount for driving meaningful change within organizations

👉🏾 He shared examples of successful alumni and partnerships with leading organizations, illustrating the transformative impact of the foundation’s work.

The new CEO of Taylor Bennett Foundation envisions a future where the stories of diverse individuals are celebrated, positioning the Taylor Bennett Foundation as pivotal in reshaping the communications landscape.

To learn more, head to the podcast, link in comments 👇🏾 👇🏾 👇🏾

And keep tuned future episodes where I spotlight TBF and its incredible alumni.

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Hi Koray. Wonderful to meet with you after such a long time. It's been a couple of years, I think, since we last met. For the benefit of our viewers, let's start with a quick and a brief introduction.

Koray: Thank you Sudha, yes, and it's amazing to be with you.

I'm a huge fan of it. So, thank you, for inviting me back on. My name's Koray Camgöz. I'm the Chief Exec of the Taylor Bennett Foundation, which is a charity that exists to increase ethnic diversity in communications. I've been with the charity for just over four months now, and prior to that, I've been in communications for around about 15 years, most recently as a director at Ketchum and formerly with the PRCA and the CIPR.

Sudha: Congratulations on your role as the new CEO of Taylor Bennett Foundation. So how did the role come about and how has it been so far?

So tell us about how the role came about, how it has been so far.

Koray: Yes, I was with Ketchum for just over a year and a half in total. I worked principally with Adobe, but also with Samsung. But as you say, much of my focus was on corporate reputation.

I was in the corporate team at Ketchum. But everything that I approach when I was working both with client work and prior to that has always been through an inclusion lens and that carried over with a lot of work with clients as well. I was involved with a campaign with Samsung called ‘The Fine Line’, which helped kind of shine a light on issues around name bias. Inclusion, has always been a huge passion point of mine, and it was something that I was privileged to be part of at Ketchum but also prior to roles PRCA as well.

But in terms of how it came about, it was rather unplanned, I think is the best way of describing it. I was having a conversation with a friend. I'm sure he won't mind me mentioning it was Stephen Waddington. I was having a chat with him, and he mentioned that he'd seen this role advertised on LinkedIn. And as soon as he said it, I hadn't actually seen the role, so I didn't know there was a vacancy, but as soon as he said it, I thought that it was a really strong fit and just something that would align really well, and the more I went through the process, and the more I spoke to the trustees, it just became clear that this would be a brilliant opportunity, and obviously I've had the good fortune of working with the foundation, In different capacities, both when I was at the PRCA and CIPR.

So, and I know very well the impact that the organisation creates. And that above all was the big draw. It was the impact that it makes for people in our industry. So, it's an immense privilege to be in the role.

Sudha: I think we've had an opportunity to work on some impactful work with you leading the way at the PRCA. At the TBF, Koray, what are your priorities for the next two or three years? As a leader, what would you like to change? And where do you see the Taylor Bennett Foundation going?

Koray: The mission, I think, has been consistent since the organisation was founded.

So, the charity was founded more than 15 years ago now, and the mission remains the same. We're about increasing ethnic diversity and communications. It's a very straightforward and clear vision. I think for me the ambition over the next few years is to really scale our programs and expand our impact. I think there are 2 sides to that.

I think traditionally the foundation have done this amazing job of inspiring young people to pursue careers in communications and something that I'm genuinely passionate about is working with employers on the culture that exists in our industry and because you will notice that, but we can continue to hire people from diverse backgrounds until the cows come home, but unless there are real changes to cultures and to systems and environments in which these people are working, we'll be in a perpetual state of a lack of diversity. So it's all about supporting employers and helping them navigate their way through their transition to create more inclusive environment.

So I'm really, really focused on that. We've got lots of activity, which serves that purpose and we've got a round table coming up in May, which will be a first step towards that. But ultimately, yes, it's about inspiring young people and ensuring that the environment exists in our industry is genuinely inclusive and allows them to belong and to thrive.

Sudha: Yeah. Because I think the industry, per se, even as per the new census, there is more representation from Black and ethnic minorities. But like you said, if the culture isn't there, they'll probably get in and then get out after some time because they don't see themselves fitting in the industry and fitting in

Sudha: That has been a big challenge. 

Koray: I agree entirely. And I think that is the most current and present challenge facing the industry. It's about making leadership accountable and guiding them towards creating genuine change in the organisation.

So I think that's the big picture. And I want the foundation to be part of that. There are some other brilliant organisations doing work in this area as well. But from my point of view, I'm really passionate about ensuring we play a positive role in that challenge. Something which I came to appreciate before the role was just how profound the impact was that this organisation, that the foundation has on people's lives. And that has become more apparent in my first few months, I think speaking to people right across the career trajectory and hearing from them firsthand about just what a tremendous impact the foundation has had on them has been truly inspiring.

So when you asked me about, the foundation and what we're going to be focusing on going forward, a huge part of that for me personally, is about showcasing those stories. And it's about giving our alumni and the people who've gone through our programs, a platform to tell their story, because there have genuinely been some incredible stories, and we want to make sure that those are told.

Sudha: I've just recently met with two of your alumni Hannah and Shanil. And of course, Kuldeep, we work very closely with, we're at the PRCA Equity and Inclusion Advisory Council, brilliant people. Koray, considering your background and you've now moved into, this is definitely a charity sector role. Have you been able to leverage your experiences and learnings from the PRCA and Ketchum? And how different is it to working in a charity?

Is it more consensus driven? Is it slower? Is it more fast paced? Because agency life is so deadline driven.

Koray: It's very different. I'll be honest. Particularly from consultancy life and to be honest, working at a large consultancy is very different from working at a professional body as well, so they're all very different from one another.

I think the one thing I would say about the foundation is that it's very much a mission driven culture. We've got a brilliant team and everybody who is part of that team is really clear on why they turn up for work. And I think that it's inspiring and it really helps ground you in the decisions that you make.

I think that's probably the first difference that I would point out. I think from a practical point of view, working at the PRCA and the CIPR was very useful for this role. I think getting to know the industry, getting to know the people, work in the industry at all levels, I think has been hugely valuable.

And obviously I've had, you could say the fortune or perhaps the misfortune of working really closely on studies, which evidence the scale of the challenge that we [00:08:00] face when it comes to diversity and inclusion. So, whether it was the state of the profession or the PRCA census, I've done lots of work that highlights the issues that we have.

But I think now in this role, we can make real efforts towards improving the situation and to making this industry more inclusive.

And the other thing I would also say is just generally about the differences and thinking about my experiences that working at Ketchum was genuinely, a brilliant and fascinating career experience. I think that the opportunity to get under the hood of the industry was, interesting. And I think, when you're working at the PRCA or the CIPR, you're often commenting or reflecting on industry issues, but you're not actually seeing them first hand

And so, whether you're talking about things like pitching or, the importance of mental health or whatever industry issue might be talked at the moment, it's just really illuminating and interesting to see that firsthand at an agency. And I'll always be grateful for my time, particularly for the opportunities that I've got to work with some clients and work with some brilliant people.

Sudha: I think your experience actually, with the CIPR and PRCA, I think it has prepared you for this, role in the sense that if you had come to it from an outsider perspective or from agency or somewhere else, you wouldn't know the industry as well.

And now, like you said, you've also worked on the agency side. So you understand that I'd say career life cycle or the challenges of running a business day to day, how it functions.

That's amazing. Koray, so I think we met before COVID definitely, but I think we started working together because of the PRCA. with what happened, the George Floyd murder and Black Lives Matter. And at that time, there was a crescendo around it and it gained a momentum that didn't exist before, people used to speak about it, but it was not front and centre.

And that's what COVID did is it brought it front and centre. But we've seen, from even my time at the PRCA Equity and Inclusion Advisory Council is that in 20, 22, 23, we were seeing the interest petering out and now with the kind of politics that is there across the world, the rhetoric that is happening we are seeing a lot of peddling back. I wouldn't presume to know all the reasons but of course, it's all exacerbated because of the cost of living crisis and there are so many issues, right?

The industry is not moving, not everybody is able to get the job that they want, etc. So in this sort of scenario, would you agree that we'll see momentum on DEI only if agencies are committed, but agencies have sort of stalled or stopped or pulled back because they think they can pull back or they are prioritizing business because they think this is something that is separate.

Would you agree?

Koray: To be honest, I'm, in two minds about it because it's impossible to ignore what's happening in the world. There are large multinational organisations who are terminating DEI efforts. And yes, there's a lot of headlines and news coverage and the sea of distractions when it comes to DEI at the moment.

But I'm yet to see a real impact in the day to day. And it may well be that that plays out over the next few months. But to be honest with you, from the conversations that I've had with agency leaders and comms directors those who appreciated the value of what inclusive strategies deliver for organisations are not dissuaded.

And to be honest with you, I think it would take quite an incompetent leader for you to think, okay, well, I no longer need to focus on inclusion now because of some headlines and things that have happened in the press, to be honest with you. Organisations and businesses always rely on people, and they rely on people to perform roles to deliver value, irrespective of what the organisation's goal is or a sector.

If you want productive people, if you want a loyal workforce, if you want to reduce churn, if you want to improve the decision making process, if you want a more creative, more innovative team, all of that is dependent on having a team, which it's comprised of people from diverse backgrounds and diverse lived experiences.

So my honest assessment on that is that I think, we just need to stay the course and not be distracted by headlines, which at the moment are seeming to never end.

Sudha: I think there's a lot of rhetoric and it's like tabloid journalism and people are just talking a lot about what shouldn't be done around DEI. And as you mentioned, the rollbacks that we have seen some prominent organisations do, but then there are others who've not rolled back, and these are big multinationals that are sort of leading the way and are thought leaders.

Koray: Yeah, just on that, I would say that you're spot on. The headlines are everywhere at the moment. I mean, DEI has been blamed for everything from forest fires to aircraft disasters.

And so I think we just need to be sensible and to stay really focused on the value that these strategies deliver for organisations and also just not be distracted or dissuaded from what we know to be true. There's an analogy which I heard when I was at Ketchum from a guy called Mike Doyle, who was the global CEO at Ketchum at the time. He still is the global CEO, and he spoke about the importance of kind of, if you look at a, a barometer kind of emotional responses with like one being the worst day ever and 10 being the best day ever, and he spoke about always staying in the four, five, and six.

So, irrespective of whether you think things are going particularly well or whether you think things are going disastrously, it's really important that you just stay consistent.

And it's the same concept that, even if things are going very well, register those victories, and, be proud of yourself, but don't get carried away, Stay in the four or five or six and I think that mentality can be applied to the challenges that we're seeing now that can be applied to your own personal life. I think it's a really important principle to adhere to, particularly in a world where things are changing all the time and there's a lot of noise.

Sudha: Yeah. I agree like you mentioned that when you're speaking with leaders, it doesn't seem like they are giving up on the prioritisation of equity and inclusion.

But I'd say that, with all the rhetoric and all the conversations that are happening and also with AI and technology and new tools, the people most likely to get impacted are people at the lower levels and I guess there'll come a stage where others also do get impacted.

How do we get leaders to continue to make a concerted effort to attract not just for the sake of representation, but also when they invite people in, they're inclusive enough. Do you think that leaders have that mindset at this point in time where they have that much of energy because it's so much harder to do business in the industry at this point?

It's not easy, right? Even for agencies, I don't want to mention the name of a agency leader, but they did, talk about technology and how in the future we are going to see in the next one or two years that they'll be employing more freelance and associate sort of models to get people in. Because they're not sure, clients are not signing up for the long term and they are more like short term projects and the retainer stuff is not as steady as it used to be. You knew earlier, I'd say maybe five years ago, you knew when the retainers were coming and they were going to stay for some time.

In that environment, how do you make sure that, the thing that is the easiest to do away with, you don't do that?

Koray: Yeah, I think, to be honest, if you're looking at it in those terms, it's almost impossible to prioritize inclusion to the extent that it needs to be.

I think you need to take a step back and think about why the organisation exists, what the mission is and what needs to be done in order to...

You are listening to the Elephant in the Room podcast with your host Suta Singh.

Each week we will bring you a diverse range of inspiring speakers on issues of inequality and inequity.

You will hear stories about fairness, justice, belonging and about best practice for creating a more inclusive workplace.

So if you are an individual or leader interested in a fairer, equitable, compassionate society and workplace, this podcast is for you.

My guest on the Elephant in the Room podcast this week is Karai Kamgo, CEO of the Taylor Bennett foundation uk.

Hi Karai, Wonderful to meet with you after such a long time.

It's been a couple of years, I think, since we last met.

For the benefit of our viewers, let's start with a quick and a brief introduction.

Thank you Sadh yes, and it's amazing to be with you.

I'm a huge fan of it, so thank you for inviting me back on.

My name's Poray Kamgos.

I'm the Chief Exec of the Taylor Bennett foundation, which is a charity that exists to increase ethnic diversity in communications.

I've been with the charity for just over four months now and prior to that I've been in communications for around about 15 years, most recently as a director at Ketchum and formally with the PRCA and the cipr.

Congratulations on your role as the new CEO of Taylor Bennett Foundation.

So how did the role come about and how has it been so far?

So tell us about how the role came about, how it has been so far.

Yes, I was with Ketchum for just over a year and a half in total.

I worked principally with Adobe, but also with Samsung.

But as you say, much of my focus was on corporate reputation.

I was in the corporate team at Ketchum, but everything that I approach when I was working both with client work and prior to that has always been through an inclusion lens and that carried over with a lot of work with clients as well.

I was involved with a campaign with Samsung called the Fine Line, which helped shine a light on issues around name bias.

Inclusion has always been a huge passion point of mine and it was something that I was privileged to be part of at Ketchum, but also prior to roles at CIPR and PRCA as well.

But in terms of how it came about, it was rather unplanned I think is the best way of describing it.

I was having a conversation with a friend, I'm sure he won't mind me mentioning it was Steven Waddington.

I was having a chat with him and he mentioned that he'd seen this role advertised on LinkedIn.

And as soon as he said it, I hadn't actually seen the role, so I didn't know there was a vacancy.

As soon as he said it, I thought that it was a really strong fit and just something that would align really well.

And the more I went through the process and the more I spoke to the trustees, it just became clear that this would be a brilliant opportunity.

And obviously, I've had the fortune of working with the foundation in different capacities, both when I was at the PRCA and at the cipr.

So I know very well the impact that the organization creates, and that, above all, was the big draw.

It was the impact that it makes for people in our industry.

So it's an immense privilege to be in the role.

I think we've had an opportunity to work on some impactful work with you leading the way at the prc, at the tbf.

Karai, what are your priorities for the next two or three years as a leader?

What would you like to change, and where do you see the Taylor Bennett foundation going?

The mission, I think, has been consistent since the organization was founded.

So the charity was founded more than 15 years ago now, and the mission remains the same.

We're about increasing ethnic diversity and communications.

It's a very straightforward and clear vision.

I think, for me, the ambition over the next few years is to really scale our programs and expand our impact.

I think there are two sides to that.

I think, traditionally, the foundation have done this amazing job of inspiring young people to pursue careers in communications.

And something that I'm genuinely passionate about is working with employers on the culture that exists in our industry.

And because you will notice that we can continue to hire people from diverse backgrounds until the cows come home.

But unless there are real changes to cultures and to systems and environments in which these people are working will be in a perpetual state of a lack of diversity.

So it's all about supporting employers and helping them navigate their way through their transition to create more inclusive environments.

So I'm really, really focused on that.

We've got lots of activity which serves that purpose, and we've got a roundtable coming up in May which will be a first step towards that.

But ultimately, yes, it's about inspiring young people and ensuring that the environment exists in our industry is genuinely inclusive and allows them to belong and to thrive.

Yeah, because I think the industry, per se, even as for the new census, there is more representation from black and ethnic minorities.

But like you said, if the culture isn't there, they'll probably get in and then get out.

After some time because they don't see themselves fitting in the industry.

And fitting in 100%.

Yeah, has been a big challenge.

I agree entirely.

And I think that is the most current and present challenge facing the industry.

It's about making leadership accountable and guiding them towards creating genuine change in the organization.

So I think that's the big picture and I want the foundation to be part of that.

There are some other brilliant organizations doing work in this area as well.

But from my point of view, I'm really passionate about ensuring we play a positive role in that challenge.

Something which I came to appreciate before the role was just how profound the impact was that this organization that the foundation has on people's lives.

And that has become more apparent in my first few months.

I think speaking to people right across the career trajectory and hearing from them firsthand about just what a tremendous impact the foundation has had on them has been truly inspiring.

So when you ask me about the foundation and what we're gonna be focusing on going forward, a huge part of that for me personally is about showcasing those stories.

And it's about giving our alumni and the people who've gone through our programs a platform to tell their story because there have genuinely been some incredible stories and we wanna make sure that those are told.

I've just recently met with two of your alumni, Hannah and Shannel and of course Kuldeep we work very closely with at the PRC Equity and Inclusion Advisory Council.

Brilliant people.

Korahi, considering your background and you've now moved into this is definitely a charity sector role, have you been able to leverage your experiences and learnings from the PRCA and Ketchum and how different is it to working in a charity?

Is it more consensus driven?

Is it slower?

Is it more fast paced?

Because agency life is so deadline driven?

It's very different, I'll be honest, particularly from consultancy life.

And to be honest, working at a large consultancy is very different from working at a professional body as well.

So they're all very different from one another.

I think the one thing I would say about the foundation is that it's very much a mission driven culture.

We've got a.

A brilliant team and everybody who is part of that team is really clear on why they turn up for work.

And I think that it's inspiring and it really helps ground you in the decisions that you make.

I think that is probably the first difference that I would point out.

I think from a practical point of view, working at the PRCA and the CIPR was very useful for this role.

I think getting to know the industry, getting to know the people work in the industry at all levels, I think has been hugely valuable.

And obviously I've had, you could say, the fortune or perhaps the misfortune of working really closely on studies which evidence the scale of the challenge that we face when it comes to diversity and inclusion.

So whether it was the CIPR, state of the profession or the PRCA census, I've done lots of work that highlights the issues that we have.

But I think now in this role, we can make real efforts towards improving the situation and to making this industry more inclusive.

And the other thing I would also say is just generally about the differences and thinking about my experience is that working at Ketchum was genuinely a brilliant and fascinating career experience.

I think that the opportunity to get under the hood of the industry was interesting.

And I think when you're working at the PRCA or the cipr, you're often commenting or reflecting on industry issues, but you're not actually seeing them firsthand.

And so whether you're talking about things like pitching or the importance of mental health or whatever industry issue might be talked at the moment, it's just really illuminating and interesting to see that firsthand at an agency.

And I'll always be grateful for my time, particularly for the opportunities that I got to work with some clients and work with some brilliant people.

I think your experience actually with the CIPR and prca, I think it has prepared you for this role in the sense that if you had come to it from an outsider perspective or from agency or somewhere else, you wouldn't know the industry as well.

And now, like you said, you've also worked on the agency side.

So you understand that, let's say career life cycle or the challenges of running a business day to day, how it functions.

That's amazing, Karai.

So I think we met before COVID definitely, but I think we started working together because of the PRCA with what happened, the George Floyd murder and Black Lives Matter.

And at that time there was a crescendo around it and it gained a momentum that didn't exist before.

People used to speak about it, but it was not front and center.

And that's what Covid did, is it brought it front and center.

And now with the kind of politics that is there across the world, the rhetoric that is happening, we are seeing a lot of peddling back.

I wouldn't presume to know all the reasons, but of course it's all exacerbated because of the cost of living crisis.

And there are so many issues, right?

The industry is not moving, not everybody is able to get the job that they want, etc.

So in this sort of scenario, would you agree that we'll see momentum on dei?

Only if agencies are committed.

But agencies have sort of stalled or stopped or pulled back because they think they can pull back, or they are prioritizing business because they think this is something that is separate.

Would you agree?

To be honest, I'm in two minds about it because it's impossible to ignore what's happening in the world.

There are large multinational organizations who are terminating DEI efforts and yes, there's a lot of headlines and news coverage and the sea of distractions when it comes to DEI at the moment.

But I'm yet to see a real impact in the day to day and it may well be that that plays out over the next few months.

But to be honest with you, from the conversations that I've had with agency leaders and comms directors, those who appreciated the value of what inclusive strategies deliver for organizations are not dissuaded.

And to be honest with you, I think it would take quite an incompetent leader for you to think, okay, well I no longer need to focus on inclusion now because of some headlines and things that have happened in the press.

To be honest with you, organizations and businesses always rely on people and they rely on people to perform roles, to deliver value, irrespective of what the organization's goal is or a sector.

If you want productive people, if you want a loyal workforce, if you want to reduce churn, if you want to improve the decision making process, if you want a more creative, more innovative team, all of that is dependent on having a team which is comprised of people from diverse backgrounds and diverse lived experiences.

So my honest assessment on that is that I think we just need to stay the course and not be distracted by headlines which at the moment are seeming to never end.

I think there's a lot of rhetoric and it's like tabloid journalism and people are just talking a lot about what shouldn't be done around dei.

And as you mentioned, the rollbacks that we have seen some prominent organizations do, but then there are others who've not rolled back and these are big multinationals that are sort of leading the way and our thought leaders.

Just on that, I would say that you're spot on.

Like the headlines are everywhere at the moment.

I mean, DEI is being blamed for everything from forest fires to aircraft disasters.

And so I think we just need to be sensible and to stay really focused on the value that these strategies deliver for organizations and also just not be distracted or dissuaded from what we know to be true.

There's an analogy which I heard when I was at Ketchum from a guy called Mike Doyle, who was the global CEO at Ketchum at the time.

He still is the global CEO, and he spoke about the importance of kind of, if you look at a barometer of kind of emotional responses with like 1 being the worst day ever and 10 being the best day ever.

And he spoke about always staying in the 4, 5, and 6.

So irrespective of whether you think things are going particularly well or whether you think things are going disastrously, it's really important that you just stay consistent.

And it's the same concept that even if things are going very well, register those victories and be proud of yourself.

But don't get carried away.

Stay in the foot of five or six.

And I think that mentality can be applied to the challenges that we're seeing now.

That can be applied to your own personal life.

I think it's a really important principle to adhere to, particularly in a world where things are changing all the time and there's a lot of noise.

Yeah, I agree.

Like you mentioned, that when you speaking with leaders, it doesn't seem like they are giving up on the prioritization of equity and inclusion.

But I'd say that with all the rhetoric and all the conversations that are happening, and also with AI and technology and new tools, the people most likely to get impacted are people at the lower levels.

And I guess there'll come a stage where others also do get impacted.

How do we get leaders to continue to make a concerted effort to attract, not just for the sake of representation, but also when they invite people in, they're inclusive enough.

Do you think that leaders have that mindset at this point in time where they have that much of energy?

Because it's so much harder to do business in the industry at this point?

It's not easy.

Right?

Even for agencies.

I don't want to mention the name of an agency leader, but they did talk about technology and how in the future we are going to see in the next one or two years that they'll be employing more freelance and associate sort of models to get people in because they're not sure clients are not signing up for the long term and they are More like short term projects.

And the retainer stuff is not as steady as it used to be.

You knew earlier, I'd say maybe five years ago, you knew when the retainers were coming and they were going to stay for some time in that environment.

How do you make sure that the thing that is the easiest to do away with, you don't do that?

Yeah, I think, to be honest, if you're looking at it in those terms, it's almost impossible to prioritize inclusion to the extent that it needs to be.

I think you need to take a step back and think about why the organization exists, what the mission is, and what needs to be done in order to achieve those objectives.

And as I mentioned before, every organization is reliant on its people.

So to your question about how we address the current challenge, it's about making a really clear, compelling commercial case for inclusion.

We are well versed on the moral case for creating equitable environments, and that is undeniable.

But so too is the commercial benefit of prioritizing inclusion.

And some of the very top organizations in the world recognize this truth.

So, for example, Jamie Dimon, who's the CEO of JP Morgan, regularly talks about this.

He talks about their concerted efforts to increase the number of black and Hispanic professionals in their organization and linking it to the overall objectives of what the organization's achieving.

So this is a truth and it's one that must be recognized.

It's not necessarily a case of thinking about, well, at the moment there's lots of uncertainty.

We don't know where things are going to land and we don't know when contracts are going to come.

I think for me it's about setting a culture from the very top of the organization that permeates all of that and that is resistant to changes in the economic environment because ultimately, once that's in place, it's going to be a key pillar of success and really enable the organization to thrive in the long term.

I guess that makes sense.

Khuray, a related question.

So the latest census, I think shows number of black and ethnic minority applicants increasing, but it's still not as high because whatever, for cultural reasons, Asians or people from different parts of the world, they don't think PR is an opportunity and they've probably sometimes not even heard that they can do well.

So how do you get them to understand is outreach as an industry?

Because the PRCA did a lot of programs and partnerships and school awareness, etc.

Etc.

It's an interesting point.

I think that there are challenges when you look at trying to encourage people to pursue a career in communications, particularly people from diverse ethnic backgrounds.

The simple truth is PR and communications isn't recognized as a bona fide profession in the way that law and accountancy and other established professions are.

And particularly for those of us from second generation immigrant families, that counts for more.

Right.

And when you're having conversations with your parents about what you want to do and where you want to go, it can be really difficult.

So that can create another barrier.

But if I'm being honest, and I'm more sure of this now that I've been in this role for four months, that isn't the issue.

Right.

When we come to look at the challenge that we face with diversity in this industry, like there are young people who want to come and work in communications.

So we run an annual virtual program for anyone who's interested in communications.

It's called Step into Primary.

And we consistently have more than 100 people take part in this program takes place over five days.

And it's essentially a taster into what it's like to work in communications.

And it's for anyone from a school student all the way through to an undergraduate, anyone with an interest.

We consistently get strong numbers for that.

There is no shortage of young people who are interested in working in communications.

Especially when you link it to a brand or a passion point.

It doesn't matter what you're interested in your life, whether you're into gaming, fashion, football.

There is a communications element to that work.

And I think once people appreciate that and then they can see the range of brilliant opportunities that a career in communications can provide, the potential for salary increases in the long term.

I think it's a really compelling career choice.

But as I keep going back to, the problem we have historically is that the leaders and the people in senior positions in that organization just have not created the environments and the cultures that allow diverse talent to thrive.

We are in a very middle class industry.

This is an industry which typically has hired in its own image, traditionally has relied on things like unpaid internships, which of course allow for this culture of kind of economic prejudice where only people who can afford to work for free go and get the experience that they need and build the connections that they need.

It's also a very social industry.

So there's a lot of challenges that people coming up from diverse backgrounds, you don't drink, for example, and you come into a role where that is the culture in an organization.

There are so many challenges.

So to go back to my original point, it's all about accelerating cultural change and I think that is how we shift the dial in the long term.

I think, yeah, the leaders need to have some cultural intelligence also on what will make it palatable for younger people who come into the organization to stay and thrive in those organizations.

And I guess role models also like you all have with your alumni.

So at the TBF you clearly work with agencies and you collaborate with them.

How important are collaborations and partnerships towards achieving what you are setting out to do?

Yeah, I mean they're vital.

They're the heartbeat of how we operate.

We work with more than 200 employers in total, all the way from small consultancies right the way through to large agencies and in house teams.

We have our flagship eight week program.

That's our program that's run for the longest amount of time and through that we have sponsors including HSBC and Brunswick.

And we've got a really strong record of people who go through those programs landing full time roles.

So 97% of the people who do that flagship program goes immediately into employment as a result.

So it's an incredibly effective way of building a diverse pipeline of talent.

So partnerships are massively important and I would say that's the case for those of us, those organizations working with us on our flagship program, but right the way through across all our other programs as well.

So last week we held an event for our reverse mentoring program and we have partnerships with employees of all sizes who play a really key role in having their leaders take part in that program, which is a really uncomfortable and rewarding and fulfilling experience both for mentors and mentors.

So yeah, partnerships are very much the heartbeat of what we do and they are critical to our long term mission of driving immediate and long term change in this issue.

Effy, do you foresee, I mean, you've just taken over and this is like a big question.

What are some of the big challenges that you see for the TBF in achieving its vision or achieving what it set out to do?

I think if we're talking about specifically diversity in communications and what the challenge is, honestly, I think it's convincing industry leaders to stop making excuses and to hold people in positions of power accountable for change.

And there are some really clear and tangible ways of delivering that.

And you can work with organizations like the Taylor Bennett foundation and there are some other brilliant organizations doing work.

Shiraz Ghosha, People Like Us, for example, is doing some incredible work around campaigning for ethnicity pay gap data and for encouraging organizations of all size to submit their ethnicity pay gap Data is another clear example of an action that leaders can take to create the positive change.

And so, yes, there are clear challenges, but for me, it's, as I say, it's about holding leadership to account and to really ensure that they make the changes that are necessary.

And then I think on a broader level for the industry, I think there are huge challenges, particularly around technology at the moment.

I think it was really interesting that a lot of the organizations which are rolling back DEI are also investing massively in artificial intelligence, which again, creates issues, because it will likely lead to a situation where the people in power are more disconnected and less representative of the people that they serve.

And I think that is a huge issue, but it also has massive ramifications for the industry.

So I'm convinced that our industry will look nothing like itself in a short few years because of the changes which are imminent thanks to artificial intelligence.

So that will bring a whole range of challenges and issues which will need addressing.

But irrespective of that, there will always be a place for strategic communications in that there will always be a need for people to help organizations navigate change, navigate the stakeholder environment, and protect reputation.

And it's my firm belief that it will always be vital that that group of people represent the society that they work within.

And I think that's a really important thing.

So despite all of the huge technological changes which are coming, having an inclusive workforce for me is absolutely vital.

Yeah, absolutely.

So no excuses.

The environment is going to be dynamic, and I think people have to just keep adapting, but ensuring that they are taking along everyone with them rather than going back to the old ways, I don't think that that'll work in the future.

And where the last question I spoke about the future, how confident do you feel about the future and what would success mean for you at tbf?

We are in a age of measurement and evaluation.

So would you be able to put something specific or you think it's a broader goal that is more like.

Yeah, I would say that undoubtedly the foundation has a really proud track record of delivering profound change for people who go through the programs.

And for me, it's about scaling the program.

So we are in the process of building our strategic plan for the next four to five years.

And even though I can't go into the details of the specifics of it just yet, I would say that there are plans, ambitious plans, to really increase the number and accelerate the cultural change.

So it's about supporting young people.

Yes, but it's also about really working closely with employers to make sure that those environments are inclusive.

And when you ask about what success looks like, it for me is ensuring that these incredible stories that I come across in the foundation and among our alumni are heard and are given the platform.

Because I think once people have a first hand appreciation of the challenges that people have when navigating this industry, when they come from a diverse background, I think everything else becomes easier.

A really good example of that is last year we had a candidate who took part in our flagship program which was sponsored by hsbc.

And she was attending a masterclass, which is an opportunity to go in and spend time with one of our supporting organizations.

And she went to work with the Gates foundation and she took part in an exercise which focused on polio.

And the people at the Gates foundation didn't know this, but this particular individual, her name was Suleika, her family had a lived experience with disease.

And she very bravely and inspiringly spoke very honestly about that experience.

And it really struck a chord with people in the room.

She subsequently finished her eight week program.

She's doing great.

She went off to work for an agency.

She's in a consultancy at a moment.

And then subsequently we were contacted by the Gates foundation and they wanted to invite Silica to be part of a panel discussion and a broader event in Brussels with the man himself, Bill Gates.

And there was a panel discussion which took place that allowed her to enjoy that platform.

And I think it's a really lovely example of just how important a simple connection can be and what a profound impact that it can have on somebody's career.

And I think there are so many more stories like that reel off a whole host of them.

And for me, it's about making sure that those are told so that people across the industry can appreciate just how much impact these programs have.

That sounds amazing and what an opportunity.

And it's because you have created a platform where she was able to actually go over there and speak about her experience and then, you know, the connections that happen.

That's so amazing.

She's always going to cherish it forever, that opportunity to have spoken.

Thank you so much, Kuray.

This has been such an interesting conversation.

I was really wanting to speak to you about the TBF and the wonderful work that it does because it's so important for our industry to ensure that black and ethnic minority professionals are able to enter the industry and thrive and do well here.

It's an absolute pleasure and thanks again for the opportunity.

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