We are joined by international bestselling author Marcus Zusak. Known for books such as 'The Book Thief' and 'Bridge of Clay,' Marcus shares his insights into how embracing discomfort and vulnerability can lead to creative success. We explore the themes of failure, authentic storytelling, and the importance of learning from our struggles, whether in writing, parenting, or life. Marcus also delves into the personal experiences that inform his work, the process behind his books, and the value of connecting with others through shared humanity and imperfections.

Discover why embracing our struggles and imperfections leads to deeper connections and more meaningful achievements, whether in writing, parenting, or life itself. I'm your co-host Anthony Pearl and your listening to the Being Comfortably Uncomfortable podcast.

Well, welcome to another episode of being comfortably Uncomfortable. Andrew, so great to be together again and we are really gonna examine this topic of why this podcast is called this again in a little bit of a different fashion. Do you wanna introduce our special guest?

Andrew: No,

Anthony: thank

Andrew: you Anthony. And it is a pleasure to be back here again today.

So, very kindly, my good friend, if I can say that, but also more importantly, one of the international bestselling authors in the world. If I can say that. Marcus Suza, who has written six books. Is it Marcus? I think it is. And the most recent is called Three Wild Dogs and the Truth. And Marcus can talk whatever as much as he likes or as little as he likes about any of the books.

I'm sure most people would have heard of Marcus as well. So Marcus, welcome.

Markus: Yeah, thanks for having me, Andrew. It's a pleasure to talk to, not only to you but just on this topic as well, and we'll see how we go. No, hopefully I won't disgrace myself.

Andrew: No, no, absolutely. So are you happy just to talk a little bit about, I guess, the books that you've written just in general?

Um, a lot of 'em do follow a theme of some sort, and I'm happy to let you sort of talk about that. You know, some of the books are The Underdog Fighting Reuben Wolf, wind Dogs Cry, the Messenger, the Book Thief, which people may have heard of, that was made into a movie Bridge of Clay and most recently Three Wild Dogs.

Markus: Well, probably, I can al also just come at it straight to with the idea of like what, you know, what you are often talking about on the podcast and to be a writer is not, I.

Necessarily that common a thing, and you get into writing with an idea of discomfort being part of it. Mm. In terms of you're guaranteed no success whatsoever. You have to do it because you love it.

Andrew: Yeah.

Markus: And you have to go into it thinking this might not be successful at all. And so I think one of the, the first ideas for me is sort of identifying what you will love.

And that was a book where. You know, I talk about failure and I talk about editing and fixing things, and so nothing I ever do, nothing I ever fi even, you know, book. When a book is finished, you've got it to the point where it's the best you can possibly make it, but you still understand that it's not gonna be perfect.

And so I find myself spending a lot of time. In a lot of doubt. I doubt my abilities a lot. That's also what makes the books what they are. It's, it actually improves the books, but it also inhibits me from writing them. So as one example between the book Thief and Bridge of Clay, between those two books, it was took me 13 years to write Bridge of Clay.

Andrew: Yeah.

Markus: And but I think my main point is that so often I have days where I go, well, that's another day where I didn't accomplish anything.

But every one of those failures is a step closer to what will actually work.

Andrew: Yeah, which is amazing. And I think what it says to you, I mean, people look at you and they know, they know you and they know your work, but as you said, doesn't necessarily, we're not assuming that it's come easy. And there's been failures and rejections as you've said as well.

And even today, this incredibly successful international author sometimes gets uncomfortable for maybe, can I say maybe writer's block Some of the time you are unsure or you've, you're second guessing yourself. So you're a human being is what it's telling me.

God, I'm good. Like, you know, I'm gonna go and write. I'm just gonna write a few pages. I wake up in the morning and I just, I honestly, I wake up in the morning and go, don't think about it. Don't think about writing all your book. Or about any of the problems. 'cause this is what I say to people all the time is, yeah, you think because I'm a writer, like, people think when you're a writer.

Oh, you got a great imagination. Yeah, you're a great, you're, you're a whimsical person. You know, you got a great imagination. I say, I actually don't have a great imagination. What I have is a lot of problems. And you above all people, Andrew, you know that. Yes. You know just how many problems I've got. And so, but our imagination.

Yeah. Uh, and uh, that's how it became the book. It did. And so often, all of the little failures we have and all of those moments of discomfort or what they do is they, they're pointing us to another way to do something. And that actually becomes this spark of, you know, call it imagination or another idea that leads us to what we actually need to do.

Yeah. But now I have a new problem. Now I have. Even despite my German and Austrian background and the book is said in Nazi Germany, but I had the most Australian sounding German girl in the history of books, you know, narrating. But I came back to death as the narrator when I thought of just one little tweak to that idea and that was that death was kind of afraid of us or and afraid for us and actually felt a lot of common ground with humans.

And so we, it became this sort of dance of. Death and life and the characters were like the missing parts of each other. Yeah. And so I just really liked that idea that I think all of us live our lives. I think we spend half of our lives just whether it's with family or work and uh, all sorts of friendships and relationships and what we're trying to achieve.

Anthony: Yeah. Can I ask Marcus, I'm fascinated by what you've done with the books, the, particularly the first books before we come to them, the most recent one, how much have you.

Is in the books and how much of that makes you uncomfortable to be putting it out?

And so I've spoken to people all across the globe, really. Um, and I'm always just myself. And so if I'm feeling. A bit, I don't wanna say the word frail, but you know, if I'm, I I'll, I'll sort of expose my foibles or my vulnerability often if I'm talking, you know, and if I'm feeling a bit. Um, nervous. I'll just tell people feeling a bit nervous, you know, or, or I'll, I'll describe a failure.

One of my favorite ways to start a talk, for example, is to talk. I remember the first time I ever did a public reading of one of my books was in Margaret River in Western Australia, and everyone said, oh, Margaret Beaver, that's a great, um. They love their wine and their culture and the arts and everything.

Still made me read from my book just to her. And, and that's when people then erupt in laughter. And so I sort of feel like I'm totally okay with, you know, bits of myself seeping through in, in whatever I've written. Because to me that's the whole point of writing anything. And what, you know, even what you guys do in your professions is you want to connect with people.

And I don't think we connect with people by only showing our strengths.

Which is, yeah, and you, and not only I think are, you are okay with it, but you embrace it as well. You embrace it as part of life, as part of learning, as part of growing, which is what we're trying to teach our kid. That's what I do every day in my rooms is try and teach people it's okay to fail or so, you know, we need to be able to learn from it and learn a lesson and growth, which is amazing.

So,

Markus: yeah, and I think I've always. I've always identified with people in books or movies or songs who are, who are like exposing, who are shining a light on their own vulnerability. Yeah. I don't really relate to characters who are always heroic.

Andrew: Yeah.

Markus: Uh, yeah. To me the, the heroic nature of us is, is facing our witnesses.

Andrew: Yeah.

Is that the hero has to look at something and go, oh my God, I can't do that.

Andrew: Yeah,

Markus: I can't face that.

Andrew: Yeah.

Markus: And, uh, and yet, and then it suddenly dawns on them that they go, actually, I kind of have to.

Andrew: Yeah. And they find the, your strengths to do that somehow.

Markus: Yeah. And it's, yeah, and it's, and not only inner strength, but sort of ingenuity and, oh, well, what have I got in my kid bag?

Yeah,

Andrew: absolutely. Uh,

Uh, well, about the amount of times You've probably said that about me actually. That's right. But I think just that idea of. I found that, you know, sharing stories and, and just, and talking about ourselves in a way that is a little bit like, we've not ripped the bandaid off, but we're sort of showing the exposed part and saying, look, this is where my bruises are.

This is my wounds. You know, and again, which is the other big story. Idea is that every character's got a word. Yeah. And they're making their way through their lives to, to address that and to face it. Yeah. Overcome it. And, and that's a hero's journey.

Andrew: Yeah. And interestingly, I'd read somewhere recently about, just about the Book Thief that someone said, the Book Thief encourages readers to express their emotions and value relationships while teaching important lessons about unpredictable nature of life.

Than when I was writing it, because it it for me, it's been that lucky book that has never quite gone away. Mm. You know, something, well, it's a lucky book and things keep happening for it. And, and so I've always been able to revisit what it's about. And in that sense, it's really about the idea that, you know, Hitler destroyed people with words.

I. That what we're actually made of, apart from our physical attributes is we're actually made of stories. Yeah. And I think, you know, we all go to work every day, try to connect with people through, and you know, and understand those stories and what people have been through and what they're going through and how they can help each other, I guess is what you probably wake up in the morning going, don't think about it.

Don't think about trying to do that just yet. Just get to your morning coffee or the dog walk and, and things will start to make sense a bit after that. And I think what I'm trying to say is nothing of any value really comes easily to us. And, and I, whilst I don't like that idea at quarter to six in the morning, I like it at, you know, 2 22.

Yeah. Uh, yeah. In the afternoon when we're talking to each other.

Markus: Yeah, there's definitely something. Running underneath stories, and I tell kids this all the time when I, if I do a workshop at a school or something, is I often talk, I say a story doesn't just run on one line. And I'll often tell 'em a story about how I got revenge on my older brother when, you know, when I was 15 and he was 17.

You know, and it's just a funny story, but I say I don't start that story on the line of. Here's what happened, and here's me swapping the eggs, you know, and here's me tell admitting to my dad what I've done before my brother and so on. So I started it on the line underneath, which is the backstory. Yeah.

And so that's what I say to people, I say to kids or anyone writing a book, I'll often say, number one, don't be afraid to fail. And I say Number two, just remember a lot. Think about what has happened to your character before the book started. So in a way of like what's in their backstory? That's actually as important to what is happening to this character moving ahead.

Everything. If they're starting the book at 25 years old, you've gotta understand everything that happened in those first 25 years to take them forward.

Um, being comfortably uncomfortable.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, I think it's, it's huge. It can have a huge impact on any kids that we talk to. And I think Marcus has said, talks to kids all the time at schools and about all of these stories, but I think it's a huge, imagine a child hearing that a parent who in their eyes is this perfect human being that can never do any wrong, has actually failed, or hasn't succeeded, or hasn't got anything easily.

It's so powerful for kids to be able to hear that. Even their own parents or the people they look up to can be uncomfortable, have failed, or haven't succeeded or get things wrong. We're human beings. That's the whole point of it. And I think that helped give kids confidence to know, Hey, don't give up. And as Marcus said, to keep going and keep, to keep on the, to keep trying and to keep, you know, to keep pursuing their dreams no matter what happens.

Markus: Hmm. Yeah. And I think even just on that idea of parents, and I think of myself as a parent, even the, the opposite of that as well. And I think that's always one of the big things I ask. Like if a book's not working, like when I was talking about when the book Thief wasn't working, like I had a death as narrator character wasn't working because he was.

To, you know, he was sardonic and kind of enjoying his work too much, collecting all these souls during the war. And then I just asked, oh, what's the opposite of that? You know, what if he was actually sympathetic? And, uh, that made all the difference. So, sometimes, so thinking, if something's not working to think, oh, well, what's the, what's almost the extreme opposite?

Of, you know, of yeah, this is bloody dad again, you know, what an idiot. And then to, to then be sort of seen as, you know, I was just doing my best there.

Andrew: That's

Markus: right. And, and being able to say, you know what? I, I, I did screw that up and I was too hard on you. Yeah, man. I was too hard and I misread that. And, and so just sort of keeping an even keel on them, you know, in that idea of, you know, heroics, but as well, or as well as being sort of like the villain of the family at times, as parent as well.

Yeah. You know, because I think so often we cast ourselves as. As, you know, the, the all powerful good guy, but then also, but then also like, you know, sort of like, no, no, I'm not. I'm the one to keep you on the straight and narrow here. Yeah. And so understanding that there, there is a human side to all of that kind of behavior.

And it's a learning to be okay to be with your uncomfortability. That's the point.

Markus: Absolutely. And I wanna thank you guys for having me today, and especially you Andrew, because you know what I'm like. Yeah. And, and I promise that next time I see you, I'm not gonna be this nice.

Andrew: Okay. And, and that we, that will be okay with me.

I'll be, I'll be comfortably uncomfortable, but I will be okay. Sorry, me too much appreciated. Really appreciate your time, Marcus. Thank you. Absolutely. Thanks you guys.

This show has been produced by podcasts done for you and remember, it's important to learn how to be comfortably uncomfortable some of the time.