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58: All Things Relationships, Love, Chastity, Theology of the Body and more with Jackie Francois Angel

Episode 58 • 30th April 2025 • Ever Be • Mari Wagner

Speaker: 00:00:06

Hey, I am your host, Mari Wagner,

and you're listening to The Ever Be

: 00:00:11

Podcast where Faith Meets Lifestyle.

: 00:00:14

I'm so excited you're here.

: 00:00:16

Whether you're a new listener

or a longtime follower, I know

: 00:00:19

there's something here for you.

: 00:00:20

Pull up a chair and listen in for

insightful, real life conversations and

: 00:00:24

actionable steps on how to claim the.

: 00:00:26

Full life God created you for.

: 00:00:28

If you're a woman desiring to live

a Christ-centered life in today's

: 00:00:32

modern world, then this is for you.

: 00:00:36

Welcome to ever be.

: 00:00:41

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416:

Welcome back to Ever Be everybody.

: 00:00:43

Today's podcast episode

is gonna be so fun.

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I have a dear friend and special

guest today on the podcast.

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Jackie, thanks so much

for joining us today.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

Yeah, thanks for having me.

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416:

Jackie is a Catholic speaker and

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author, and she knows so much about

theology of the body and relationships.

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I'm sure you all know who she is.

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If you've ever been to a

Sikh or a Steubenville, I'm

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sure you've heard her talk.

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She's amazing.

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So Jackie, could you just give us

a little bit more in depth of an

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introduction for those that maybe don't

know who you are, just tell us more

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about who you are and what you do.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

Yeah, so my name is Jackie Angel.

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My, uh, maiden name was Francois.

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And so some people saw me back in the

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: we

saw you before you were married.

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And because I, I recorded two albums

under my maiden name and I was a speaker

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under my maiden name for a long time.

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So now it's my middle name, just so

there's no confusion like, I check in a

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hotel, it's still under Jackie Francoise.

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You never

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yep.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: but I, I had

a conversion in my Catholic faith when I

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was 18 at a Steubenville youth conference.

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And I've been passionate about

youth ministry ever since.

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So a youth minister.

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I volunteered at my church.

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And then I also have been a musician

and a, a songwriter I taught

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myself guitar when I was like 18.

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So, um, I got signed

to a label when I was.

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Gosh, right outta college and

yeah, and I recorded two albums

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that are still up on, like Spotify

and Apple, under my maiden name.

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But yeah, I just have a heart for

ministry and I love doing that.

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And as I've grown older, um, ministry

just keeps changing because I'm, I'm

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still passionate about, I'm always

passionate about relationships

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and dating relationships, married

relationships, but it's been beautiful

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to see that as I've gotten married and

I have five kids and we homeschool,

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um, you know, ministry changes.

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So now my husband and I, we

speak to married couples.

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We do parish missions, but we also still

speak to young adults and high schoolers.

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And I still sometimes do like middle

school events, so we just love.

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Talking to people about Jesus.

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Um, we've written, Bobby and I have

written a couple books together.

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I've written a book by myself

called Memorize Scripture,

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and then he's also an author.

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So yeah, we just love Jesus.

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We love sharing about

Jesus in any way possible.

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Um, we have a, Bobby and I have a

podcast together where we interview

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people kind of like this as well.

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Love it.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: yeah.

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But my passion, I think because I work

with so many young women, and especially

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young adult women, that is really like

one of my favorite, like, that's part of

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big part of my heart is just making sure.

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People are in the right relationships,

like they are in relationships

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that are life giving, not life

sucking, that their relationships

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are drawing them closer to the Lord.

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And I spoke about this even

before I was married, before

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I met the man of my dreams.

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Like I always told women, I was

like, don't settle like out of fear.

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Don't settle out of grasping.

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God has amazing plans for you.

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And I knew that for myself,

even as a single woman.

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I was like, I know God has amazing plans

for me, and I'm willing to wait and

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I don't care how long I have to wait.

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I'll wait till I'm 50 60.

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Like I don't care.

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I will wait on the Lord because

his plans are better than my own.

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And I've experienced that

in my life and I know it.

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And so when God brought me

Bobby, it was just like.

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See, like there he is, you know,

like I knew I, God is so faithful

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and this isn't just for me.

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I'm not someone like just special.

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You know, like God has

that for every, everyone.

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And we are his beloved daughters

and sons and he really does have

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amazing things in store for us, and

we just have to trust him with that.

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So I'm very passionate about people

being in their vocation and, and

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bearing fruit because that's, the

Lord is passionate about that too.

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Like the Lord wants us to bear fruit

wherever he has called us and some,

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and for some of us that will be

celibacy and some of us that will

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be marriage and whatever that is,

we will be, we will be bearing the

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fruits, especially of joy and peace.

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416:

Mm, totally.

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And like that fruition of the vocation,

that fruit of the vocation, like it

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takes discernment to like what you

were saying, like to discern well

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what God's calling you to, to be,

what vocation's calling you to be and,

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and who he's calling you to marry.

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And when we settle and when we kind of

like, you know, almost grasp at this

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like desire of like, I wanna be married,

whoever it is, I gotta make it happen.

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Or when we live out of fear of like,

I just don't know if God's ever gonna

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bring me, you know, a person like X,

Y, Z, and we end up grasping, that's

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when we almost like, you know, we're

hindering God's plan for us and we're

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hindering that fullness of vocation

and the way that God is actually

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calling us to thrive in his vocation.

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Um, and so I'm excited for this

conversation just for people to

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receive that encouragement from you.

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As well as to learn just more deeply, I

mean, the meaning of theology of the Body.

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I know that this is a topic that so

many people, it kind of like piques

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their interest and it's kind of like,

Ooh, what does that really mean?

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Like, let's get into it.

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But I think a lot of people don't

actually know, you know, or could explain

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like, what is Theology of body and

maybe how do I apply it into my life?

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How do I apply it as I discern dating

and relationships and marriage?

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Um, so I'm really excited

to get into that today.

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But let's just, let's just

start at the basics here.

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Um, for somebody who has never heard

of Theology of the Body or maybe

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has heard of it in passing or, you

know, at a talk and is always like,

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yeah, that sounds great, but like,

I don't really know what that means.

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How would you explain it?

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Just in a kind of a

simple and relatable way.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: Yeah.

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And the easiest way, so Pope John

Paul wrote this book before he became

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the Pope, and then when he became the

pope for five years, he delivered this

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book over a five-year period every

Wednesday at his people audience is.

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So he gave 129 people

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Hmm.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

about how the Lord created us

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male and female, and ultimately.

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The ultimate summary of Theology

of the Body is that our bodies

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reveal God as we are creating

the image and likeness of God.

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So our, our bodies has

made men and women, we rev.

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It reveals that just as a man

and woman are made for communion

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in union with each other.

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We see just back in the beginning

of the Bible in Genesis, this

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first wedding between Adam and Eve,

this being made for each other.

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We were not meant to be alone.

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That this is really a foretaste of

the end of the Bible in Revelation

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showing like marriage is a sign

ultimately of our marriage with Jesus

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Christ, the bridegroom in heaven.

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So we, the church are the bride,

and Jesus is the bridegroom.

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And in heaven is this wedding feast where

we will be united with him fully united

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in communion with God for a love that

lasts for all e trinity and marriage.

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Earthly marriage is a sign and a

foretaste of that heavenly love.

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So.

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In in heaven.

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I won't be married to Bobby.

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And some people get really sad when they

like, oh, I won't be married to my spouse.

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But truthfully, Jesus is the

ultimate bridegroom of our hearts.

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Like before I fell in love

with Bobby, I fell in love with

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Hmm.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: on my

wedding day I looked at Jesus in

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the Eucharist, like the, the bishop

was holding up the Eucharist.

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And I looked at Jesus, who I

had been in love with for 10

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: meeting Bobby.

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And I said, Jesus, you are

the ultimate bridegroom.

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And this here, my husband is the best man.

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Hmm.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: He is

the man who's gonna lead me to you.

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And I think that's the ultimate.

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Goal is that ev when we get married

or our vocation, the whole goal is

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to lead us to Jesus, the bridegroom.

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And so there's nothing sad about, like, I

won't be married to my spouse in heaven.

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In fact, I will be more united to Bobby

in heaven than I ever was on Earth.

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I will love him more beautifully than I

ever could on Earth because I'm broken.

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And in heaven, we will be fully

one with God that we won't, our

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brokenness won't be there, you know?

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Um, so it's not a sad thing.

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It's actually a very beautiful thing.

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So the thesis of Theology

of the Body is that.

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It is only through the body that we

can underst, like we can experience God

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because we are not just some, there's

a heresy, like there's narcissism,

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manism, dualism, which kind of

says that we are souls trapped in a

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: right,

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: that

our bodies are just this prison.

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And that's not what we believe is

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: right.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: believe

that we are body and soul human beings.

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We are not angels.

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Now my last name is Angel, but

metaphysically, I'm not an angel, right?

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Um, angels are rational souls,

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: beings, but

they don't have bodies and animals are

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bodies that don't have a rational soul.

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Like animals are beautiful

and I love animals, but they

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don't ponder if God exists.

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Like they don't sit and think like,

how can I be, be evil or good?

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You know, like animals

don't have a rational soul.

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So we as humans are something.

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that we made an image and likeness of God.

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We have bodies.

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And that's how your body and soul

together and what you, what I do

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to your body, I do to your soul.

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And what happens to my

body, happens to my soul.

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And so we are not the

separated thing, right?

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We don't just, we can't manipulate our

bodies and we don't have, we are one.

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So that's kind of when it comes to

our Catholic faith, very important

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to understand because we experience

God in and through our flesh.

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I mean, the word became flesh.

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Jesus.

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God became flesh and dwelt us and even

our sacraments are very fleshy weeks.

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Every single sacrament has a physical

sign to experience God's grace.

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So Pope John Paul, you know this, A lot

of people think theology of the body is

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just about sexuality, but it's so much I.

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: I.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

It's so much more than that.

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It's a whole set, complete way of looking

at the gospel and that the whole Bible

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is about the Lord's love for his people.

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This spousal love that we are

created for the spousal love,

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like God is not just a judge.

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God is not just a cop.

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He's not a fun uncle.

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He is our beloved and we are his beloved.

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I mean even just reading in

Isaiah today like the Lord, the

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Lord's like you are not forsaken.

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You are my delight as a bridegroom

rejoices over his bride.

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I rejoice over you.

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And so to know that we are loved so

much is such a beautiful, we are beloved

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sons and daughters of God is one aspect,

but we are also the bride of Christ.

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So it's life changing.

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It changed my life when

I was in college because.

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have these desires and

especially these sexual desires.

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And because we are raised up in

a puritan culture that's like,

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your body's bad sex is bad,

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Right.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: it right.

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To learn that in our Catholic

faith, we actually think that our

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desires, God gave us these desires,

he gave us our sexuality, he gave

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us our bodies, and they are so

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm-hmm.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: Puritanism

was so filled with shame like it's

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all bad, sex is bad, pleasure is bad.

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And we don't believe that

as Catholics actually

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Right.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

the catechism so beautiful.

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There's a section where Pope Pius, I think

the 12th, he's talking about pleasure.

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He is like the pleasure that God

gave us, especially in sex, in sex

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is actually a good, beautiful thing.

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Now we can worship that pleasure, like

we can start becoming addicted to that

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Sure.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

it should be rightly ordered.

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But pleasure is not bad.

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And in fact, God gave

us that beautiful thing.

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So for me, up in a family that was

not really super Catholic, my mom's

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Catholic and the rest of the family

and we are the only two Catholics

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left and the rest are not like.

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very much worldly.

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It was worldly in one way, but

then shame-based in another.

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Right?

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So are two ways of looking at like our

desires, like either, um, just do whatever

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you want and like every desire, just

given to every desire, it's no big deal.

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Just do it.

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Or the complete opposite is

like, your desires are bad,

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the body's bad, sex is bad.

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Just don't think about it.

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm-hmm.

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jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: But the

middle way of Catholicism and what

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JPII brought in theology of the body

is like, no, our desires are so good.

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We were made in the image

and likeness of God.

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We were made with a desire

to love and to be loved.

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But our desires are twisted.

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We do have concupiscence.

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We are inclined sin and we are

inclined to use people for pleasure,

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but we have to allow the Lord

to really untwist those desires.

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But our desires to be loved,

to be known, to be seen, are

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inherent to every human being.

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And, um, just have to allow the Lord

to heal the ways that we have been.

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Wounded and that those desires have

become twisted and that we have sinned.

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So it's, it's life changing.

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It was life changing for me and I

hope it is for other people when they

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realize like, oh, my body's not bad.

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And, and I am, I'm not bad.

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'cause so many of us have shame in our

lives, whether it's through pornography

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or sexual abuse or whatever it is.

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There's a lot of shame there.

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And we hear that lie

that we are bad or dirty.

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And, and that's the devil, right?

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And we wanna hear the words of the Lord,

that we are good and that he has made us

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for something so good and so beautiful.

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He's made us for a love

that lasts forever.

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And he hasn't just made us for

like lust and just, um, fleeting

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pleasure, but he is made us for this

unconditional agape eternal love.

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mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Totally.

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And I love what you were saying about

how, you know, there's this misconception

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that the body is bad and that the

body, it's, it's like the body's fault

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that we're like in this, you know,

sinful state when the reality is like.

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The Lord created us body and soul and he

wants to redeem both our body and soul.

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And he like is calling us almost

to, you know, to be sanctified in

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both areas and to find this like

unification of worshiping the Lord

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with our body and soul together and

not neglecting one or the other.

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And so what I feel like, I mean I relate

a lot to your story of just how much

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learning about theology of the body

impacted me in college as I was growing

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: 00:14:00

in chastity and you know, dating my future

spouse and being like, what the heck?

298

: 00:14:04

We're supposed to wait till marriage,

but you know, all these things that

299

: 00:14:07

we're feeling and we wanna be unified,

but you know, what does the church say

300

: 00:14:10

and all these things and feeling like.

301

: 00:14:13

Learning to differentiate between like the

Lord's commandments because they're good

302

: 00:14:20

versus the Lord, like you said, being this

like cop that is just saying no to things

303

: 00:14:26

and learning like the why behind he is

guiding us in a certain plan, in a certain

304

: 00:14:32

way that he created us for our good and

for us to reach this like fulfillment

305

: 00:14:37

of like abundant life that he created

us for and how actually us avoiding

306

: 00:14:41

that or, you know, misunderstanding

that as like, oh, God's just this like

307

: 00:14:45

arbitrary rule giver that doesn't, you

know, want you to have any, you know,

308

: 00:14:49

joy or pleasure or fun or whatever, is

actually distorting our own view of like

309

: 00:14:54

what our body and soul were made for and

what sexuality was made for and what,

310

: 00:14:58

you know, relationships were made for.

311

: 00:15:00

So yeah, that was, that

was really good to hear.

312

: 00:15:03

Um, and I know that theology of

the body, you know, you mentioned

313

: 00:15:05

that it teaches about, uh,

masculinity, femininity, and how it.

314

: 00:15:11

It teaches to how our bodies reveal

something about ourselves, who

315

: 00:15:15

we are and how God created us.

316

: 00:15:18

What is, what does that mean as women?

317

: 00:15:20

How, what does that mean Is

how we see ourselves as women.

318

: 00:15:23

Um, can you just kind of

go into that a little bit?

319

: 00:15:26

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: Yeah,

320

: 00:15:27

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: I,

321

: 00:15:27

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: we see like

as male and female, we were creating

322

: 00:15:29

the image and likeness of the Trinity.

323

: 00:15:31

And the Trinity is a

communion of persons, right?

324

: 00:15:33

It's not just a solitude.

325

: 00:15:34

So you have in the Trinity, father,

son, and Holy Spirit, and we as

326

: 00:15:38

male and female, were created

in that communion of persons.

327

: 00:15:41

So you see in our bodies

how we are made men.

328

: 00:15:45

Give love to their wives.

329

: 00:15:47

Like literally that's how they're made.

330

: 00:15:48

They give life.

331

: 00:15:49

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: right.

332

: 00:15:50

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: as

women, we receive that life into our

333

: 00:15:52

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm-hmm.

334

: 00:15:53

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

And another person is created.

335

: 00:15:55

I mean the analogy and okay, every

analogy of the Trinity falls short and

336

: 00:15:59

kind of bears on heresy a little bit.

337

: 00:16:01

But Fulton Sheen, in his book Three

to Get Married, he talks about how in

338

: 00:16:05

love, because God, it says in scripture

in one John four, eight, God is love.

339

: 00:16:09

In love.

340

: 00:16:10

You always have to have a lover, a

beloved, and the love between them.

341

: 00:16:13

So Fulton Gene says God, the

father's like the lover who gives

342

: 00:16:16

his love to his son, Jesus Christ.

343

: 00:16:18

And Jesus is the beloved

who receives that love.

344

: 00:16:20

And the love between them begets another

person and the Trinity, the Holy Spirit.

345

: 00:16:24

And so the analogy is that

a husband loves his wife.

346

: 00:16:27

The wife receives that love

and the love between them

347

: 00:16:28

actually creates another person.

348

: 00:16:30

And nine months later, you

have to name it, right?

349

: 00:16:32

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah,

350

: 00:16:32

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: mind blowing.

351

: 00:16:33

We were creating an image and

352

: 00:16:34

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416:

I love that.

353

: 00:16:35

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: and,

and so it's this beautiful analogy.

354

: 00:16:38

And kind of going back to

what you were saying, um.

355

: 00:16:42

when it comes to our bodies and our

sexuality, sexuality, it's so good.

356

: 00:16:48

But it was created with a purpose, right?

357

: 00:16:50

So like many of us may have been

raised with just a fear-based idea

358

: 00:16:54

of Catholicism, like, don't do it.

359

: 00:16:56

We don't wanna go to hell.

360

: 00:16:57

So we are kind of have this

fear-based relationship with the

361

: 00:17:01

Lord instead of this is so beautiful.

362

: 00:17:05

Like it says in scripture that sex

is actually when a man and a woman

363

: 00:17:10

become one body, they become one soul.

364

: 00:17:14

it says this in one Corinthians, chapter

six, Saint Paul says, do you not know

365

: 00:17:17

that your bodies are temples of the

Holy Spirit within you, whom you have

366

: 00:17:21

from God and you are not your own,

therefore glorify God in your bodies.

367

: 00:17:25

So when I learned this, because growing

up I, I started learning about the

368

: 00:17:30

beauty of sex when I was in eighth

grade through my youth ministry.

369

: 00:17:33

We were watching, you know, chassis,

videos and all this stuff, and.

370

: 00:17:36

Learning, learning about that.

371

: 00:17:37

And you know, before you're

just like, just don't do it.

372

: 00:17:40

Like don't do it.

373

: 00:17:41

But learning like this is something

actually so beautiful and it has a

374

: 00:17:44

purpose and it's meant for marriage

because when you have sex, you are

375

: 00:17:50

actually becoming one with this person.

376

: 00:17:53

You are becoming one

soul with this person.

377

: 00:17:55

And there only should be one

person you're becoming one soul

378

: 00:17:58

with and that's your spouse.

379

: 00:17:58

And actually when you take your vows

and promises on your wedding day and

380

: 00:18:03

you say, I promise to love you freely,

totally faithfully, fruitfully, and this

381

: 00:18:05

is another part of theology of the Body,

is the language of the body that insects.

382

: 00:18:10

The language of the body is,

I promise to love you freely.

383

: 00:18:14

I love all of you, not just a part of

384

: 00:18:16

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yep.

385

: 00:18:16

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

Um, I love you.

386

: 00:18:19

faithfully, like it's you and

only you till death be part.

387

: 00:18:22

And I love you fruitfully, like

we're gonna bear the fruits of the

388

: 00:18:24

spirit and also be open to life.

389

: 00:18:26

And so when you make those vows and

promises on your wedding day and

390

: 00:18:29

then you con you consummate your

marriage and you have sex, you're

391

: 00:18:32

actually, those vows become flesh.

392

: 00:18:34

So every time a, a married couple has

sex, they're renewing their wedding

393

: 00:18:36

vows, which Pope John Paul says, if

you have sex outside of marriage,

394

: 00:18:40

you're, you're lying with your body.

395

: 00:18:42

'cause your body is making

a promise that it's made.

396

: 00:18:45

Yeah.

397

: 00:18:45

You're making a promise that

you never made with your words.

398

: 00:18:47

And this is not to condemn anyone

who's had sex outside of marriage,

399

: 00:18:50

but this is a great call to stop

seeing sex is just something we do

400

: 00:18:55

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm-hmm.

401

: 00:18:55

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: and that

it's just something like animalistic,

402

: 00:18:57

but that it's actually something so.

403

: 00:19:00

Beautiful in something so good that

it's meant for a, it has a purpose.

404

: 00:19:06

And the purpose, and this is what the

cat, our church believes, is the purpose

405

: 00:19:09

of sex is to bond the spouses together.

406

: 00:19:12

And it's also for the procreation

and education of children.

407

: 00:19:15

Um, and so it's only meant for marriage.

408

: 00:19:19

And it, the analogy is like the best

analogy I think is, um, of, of fire.

409

: 00:19:24

Like fire is such a, a beautiful

thing like in your, in your living

410

: 00:19:28

room fireplace, to look at the fire.

411

: 00:19:30

It's warm, it's beautiful to

look at, but fire on your living

412

: 00:19:34

room floor not so good, right?

413

: 00:19:35

Fire outside of that, that bound

is, it's can be very dangerous.

414

: 00:19:39

And that's like sex.

415

: 00:19:40

Sex within marriage and the

sacrament is beautiful and glorious.

416

: 00:19:44

To be safe with someone, to have

this experience of becoming one and

417

: 00:19:48

one flesh of someone where you don't

have to worry, do they love me?

418

: 00:19:51

Are they using me?

419

: 00:19:53

It man, to not even have to

worry about it and to be open to

420

: 00:19:55

children to have that freedom.

421

: 00:19:58

Is beautiful, but outside of

marriage, like it's, it's,

422

: 00:20:02

it can be destructive, right?

423

: 00:20:04

We know how destructive it can be outside.

424

: 00:20:05

So there's a reason we have this,

and it's not a fear-based thing,

425

: 00:20:09

but it's a love-based thing.

426

: 00:20:10

And, and our bodies are so good.

427

: 00:20:13

Like even as women receptivity, we

have naturally how we were made in our

428

: 00:20:18

bodies to receive Um, Pope John Paul,

he even wrote like a letter to women.

429

: 00:20:24

He wrote Reig, which is the

dignity of women and talked

430

: 00:20:27

about the, the feminine genius.

431

: 00:20:29

How, as women we are general, okay,

so in general we are more relational.

432

: 00:20:36

How we are made in our bodies, even

like the way our arms are curved to

433

: 00:20:39

hold, like we hold babies, like how

we hold, like versus men's arms.

434

: 00:20:43

Like I remember when we had our

child and I, I'm the youngest,

435

: 00:20:47

so I never had little siblings

436

: 00:20:48

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

437

: 00:20:49

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: I was

like, I don't, I'm not the person

438

: 00:20:51

who like can't wait to have babies.

439

: 00:20:52

Like, I had friends like that

and I was like, I, I don't know.

440

: 00:20:54

I don't even know how to

deal with babies really.

441

: 00:20:55

But when I had a baby, it

was, it was very natural.

442

: 00:20:58

I knew how to hold the baby.

443

: 00:20:59

And whereas my husband was

like, it was very awkward.

444

: 00:21:01

'cause he doesn't have a chest,

445

: 00:21:03

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yes.

446

: 00:21:03

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: has a

chest, but it's flat and it's hard

447

: 00:21:05

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416:

Or like how women have hips.

448

: 00:21:07

And I've seen people talk about how

like women just naturally pop their

449

: 00:21:10

baby on their hip and it's like

men literally can, like, they're

450

: 00:21:13

just like, how do you do that?

451

: 00:21:14

Like there's no place for the baby to sit.

452

: 00:21:17

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: yeah.

453

: 00:21:18

Or even like, I always hold a baby

inward towards me 'cause I have a chest

454

: 00:21:21

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yes.

455

: 00:21:21

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: to lean on.

456

: 00:21:22

Whereas my husband would

always turn the baby outwards

457

: 00:21:25

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yes.

458

: 00:21:25

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

and hold the baby out.

459

: 00:21:26

So I had to teach my

husband how to hold a baby.

460

: 00:21:30

So there are some things that women,

we are naturally more intuitive.

461

: 00:21:33

Um, we are also more

462

: 00:21:35

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm-hmm.

463

: 00:21:35

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

We, so men kind of look outward

464

: 00:21:38

and we're a little more inward.

465

: 00:21:40

Again, these are generalizations.

466

: 00:21:42

So like,

467

: 00:21:42

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Right,

468

: 00:21:42

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: of a

population of men and women, like

469

: 00:21:44

maybe like 85% versus like 15%.

470

: 00:21:46

Right?

471

: 00:21:47

Um.

472

: 00:21:48

just the feminine genius that men

and women, we are not in competition.

473

: 00:21:52

We are actually compliment, compliment.

474

: 00:21:55

We compliment each

475

: 00:21:56

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: right.

476

: 00:21:56

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

and we have beautiful gifts.

477

: 00:21:58

Like even I just, you know, in

your marriage I see in my marriage

478

: 00:22:01

the difference between and woman.

479

: 00:22:03

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Totally.

480

: 00:22:04

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: it's just so

funny when you're married you're like, oh

481

: 00:22:06

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416:

You see it so clearly.

482

: 00:22:08

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

the difference.

483

: 00:22:10

I even joke at women's, at like women's

sessions when I'm talking about our cycle.

484

: 00:22:14

I'm like, listen, men don't have a cycle.

485

: 00:22:17

They literally have a 24 hour daily

486

: 00:22:19

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yep.

487

: 00:22:20

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: we

have a monthly cycle and like

488

: 00:22:23

when you get married is more than

ever when you realize like, I.

489

: 00:22:27

I was like, oh my gosh.

490

: 00:22:27

Like my husband, he's

just horny all the time.

491

: 00:22:30

Like men.

492

: 00:22:32

That's just how they're made.

493

: 00:22:33

Like that's a beautiful thing.

494

: 00:22:34

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Right.

495

: 00:22:35

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: women, it's

like when we are in our cycle and we

496

: 00:22:37

are at the point of ovulation, and this

is when we're prepping to have a baby.

497

: 00:22:40

Like that's when you're,

I'm like, oh my gosh.

498

: 00:22:42

I told my husband like, is this is

what, is this what you feel like all the

499

: 00:22:45

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: I know.

500

: 00:22:45

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

yes, it's my cross to bear.

501

: 00:22:47

I'm like, no, no.

502

: 00:22:48

It's my cross to bear like that.

503

: 00:22:51

You're feeling like this all the time.

504

: 00:22:53

And we just joke about it, but

it's like, oh my gosh, I have

505

: 00:22:55

compassion for my husband.

506

: 00:22:56

Like, you feel like this all the time.

507

: 00:22:58

And it's just insane.

508

: 00:23:00

So women, we are created so

differently and I, like I talk about

509

: 00:23:06

how in, in the order of creation,

women were the last to be created.

510

: 00:23:09

We are the most, everything in creation

as it gets created is more beautiful

511

: 00:23:13

and more complex than the last thing.

512

: 00:23:14

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm.

513

: 00:23:15

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: And women

is the last to be created, meaning

514

: 00:23:17

we are the most beautiful and most

complex creature in all of creation.

515

: 00:23:21

And the reason for that, and I'm like,

that's why men never will never understand

516

: 00:23:24

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Right.

517

: 00:23:25

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: But

it's because we can do something.

518

: 00:23:27

Men cannot, we can bear life.

519

: 00:23:29

We can have, we have a woman, we

can hold life within our being.

520

: 00:23:33

Right?

521

: 00:23:33

And, and men cannot do this no matter

how hard they try, they cannot.

522

: 00:23:37

And our bodies are so complex,

even just with a cycle,

523

: 00:23:40

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm-hmm.

524

: 00:23:41

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: something.

525

: 00:23:42

And inherently our bodies

are more beautiful.

526

: 00:23:44

Like think about just in the

very fact that in advertising,

527

: 00:23:46

like 98% of advertisements use

a woman's body to sell their

528

: 00:23:50

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yep.

529

: 00:23:50

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

Like they now obviously they use

530

: 00:23:52

it unfortunately as an object.

531

: 00:23:54

And our bodies are not objects to be used.

532

: 00:23:56

We are persons meant to be loved, right?

533

: 00:23:58

But we see that even in advertising,

they use women's bodies to sell a burger.

534

: 00:24:02

They don't use men in Speedos.

535

: 00:24:03

We're like my eye shield, you

know, because there's something so

536

: 00:24:08

inherently beautiful about a woman's

537

: 00:24:09

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

538

: 00:24:10

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: and

that just even how we can bear

539

: 00:24:13

life and we can nourish that

life like it, it's unbelievable.

540

: 00:24:17

Um, how God created us in and through

our bodies and how we reflect.

541

: 00:24:24

The Lord in very different ways and

complimentary, complimentary ways

542

: 00:24:28

that a man reflects the Lord and

a how a woman reflects the Lord.

543

: 00:24:31

So it's something to reverence and to

be like, wow, this is a amazing, versus

544

: 00:24:37

like, ugh, I hate being, you know?

545

: 00:24:39

'cause

546

: 00:24:39

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

547

: 00:24:40

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: that there

are some women and maybe listening to

548

: 00:24:41

your podcasts that their bodies and

hate being woman and hate their cycle.

549

: 00:24:46

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm-hmm.

550

: 00:24:47

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: to,

to maybe ask the Lord about that

551

: 00:24:49

and, and to start seeing your body

and yourself, how God sees you.

552

: 00:24:53

Maybe bring that to prayer to God.

553

: 00:24:55

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm.

554

: 00:24:56

Totally.

555

: 00:24:57

Yeah.

556

: 00:24:57

I love these conversations of the

differences of men and women because

557

: 00:25:01

especially I think the more you

get into marriage and you're living

558

: 00:25:04

with a man, you see it so clearly.

559

: 00:25:07

But I do feel like the

more that I have like.

560

: 00:25:11

Come to understand it, the more

you truly come to appreciate the

561

: 00:25:16

masculinity and the more you, you

like desire to live in that femininity

562

: 00:25:22

fully that you were created for.

563

: 00:25:23

Because when we're both living

in those freely and fully, that's

564

: 00:25:27

when you find that like perfect

complementarity flourish the most.

565

: 00:25:30

Um, so I love that conversation.

566

: 00:25:33

Let's, um, let's talk about love, right?

567

: 00:25:35

Because this is like the essence

of this whole conversation.

568

: 00:25:38

And I feel like we both can agree and

our listeners can agree that the world

569

: 00:25:42

and our culture more and more so seems

to be distorting what the meaning of

570

: 00:25:48

love is or like what love looks like.

571

: 00:25:50

Um, so how does theology of the

body kind of redefine what it

572

: 00:25:54

means to be loved or to love?

573

: 00:25:57

Um, and how could, how does that compare

to what our culture says is love?

574

: 00:26:01

And then maybe even if you

wanna go into, um, examples of

575

: 00:26:05

like, in a relationship today.

576

: 00:26:07

I think that's a question I have seen

come up a lot in walking with women

577

: 00:26:11

of just like, yeah, this is what my

relationship's like, and something

578

: 00:26:14

feels off, but like, I know he loves me

and, you know, and you kind of wonder

579

: 00:26:18

like, okay, like let's talk about love.

580

: 00:26:20

What is love?

581

: 00:26:21

Then, you know, um, can.

582

: 00:26:23

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: Yeah.

583

: 00:26:23

Yeah.

584

: 00:26:25

Yeah.

585

: 00:26:25

So B, before Pope John Paul wrote Theology

of the Body when he was a Cardinal.

586

: 00:26:29

A Cardinal, he was Carol Tiwa.

587

: 00:26:31

He wrote a book called

Love and Responsibility.

588

: 00:26:33

And in this book, his whole thesis

is that the opposite of love is use,

589

: 00:26:38

that we use each other as objects for

pleasure instead of persons to be loved.

590

: 00:26:43

And I think we all know in a way,

we all know what love is, and

591

: 00:26:47

we know what love isn't like.

592

: 00:26:49

We know we were never meant to be

cheated on, used, abused, betrayed.

593

: 00:26:55

You know, like we know

that that's not love.

594

: 00:26:58

And when I ask people in an audience,

like I ask whether it's high schoolers

595

: 00:27:01

or adult, you know, young adults, I'm

like, if a guy wrote you a love song

596

: 00:27:06

and he was like, I wanna love you

for two weeks, you'd be like, what?

597

: 00:27:09

No.

598

: 00:27:10

I'm like, how long are

you meant to be loved for?

599

: 00:27:12

And they all say forever.

600

: 00:27:14

You weren't meant to be loved for

two days, two weeks, two years.

601

: 00:27:16

Like you know, inherently love

was meant to last forever.

602

: 00:27:19

And the only place love

lasts forever is heaven.

603

: 00:27:23

Even in my marriage, I don't say,

I promise to love you all eternity.

604

: 00:27:26

I say, I promise to love

you till death do us

605

: 00:27:28

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Right.

606

: 00:27:29

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: right?

607

: 00:27:29

Like, because marriage is a foretaste

of the place where love lasts

608

: 00:27:34

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm.

609

: 00:27:34

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: And so

the opposite of love is, is lust.

610

: 00:27:39

And that's used to use a

person for your own pleasure.

611

: 00:27:42

And I know in my life and in my past

relationships, I know I have let

612

: 00:27:47

people use me and I have used people.

613

: 00:27:50

Now I'm not even just talking

in romantic relationships.

614

: 00:27:52

Absolutely.

615

: 00:27:53

I had guys in high school who

I was like, hookup buddies.

616

: 00:27:57

Now granted I didn't have sex till

617

: 00:27:58

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm-hmm.

618

: 00:27:59

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: and I

was told, this is what I was told.

619

: 00:28:01

I was told like, keep your pants on.

620

: 00:28:02

I'm

621

: 00:28:02

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Right?

622

: 00:28:02

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: great.

623

: 00:28:03

Then I'll do everything up

624

: 00:28:04

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yep.

625

: 00:28:05

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

which is a terrible boundary.

626

: 00:28:06

I would never say that boundary.

627

: 00:28:07

My boundary would be like, if you

can do it in front of the Pope and

628

: 00:28:10

your grandma, you're good to go.

629

: 00:28:11

And if you can't, it's off limits.

630

: 00:28:14

Like anywhere your bathing

suit, like that's off limits.

631

: 00:28:17

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yes.

632

: 00:28:17

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: like

essentially everything that.

633

: 00:28:21

the arousal train is meant for sex,

and that's meant for marriage, which I

634

: 00:28:26

know is so hard for us to hear because

our culture says like, I mean, you

635

: 00:28:30

watch TV shows or movies and they're

like having sex on the first date.

636

: 00:28:33

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Right.

637

: 00:28:34

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: and

that is like, okay, in a dating

638

: 00:28:35

relationship, like what's appropriate?

639

: 00:28:37

Like holding hands, a kiss, an

embrace, and that's about it.

640

: 00:28:41

And people are like, what?

641

: 00:28:43

Like what?

642

: 00:28:44

Because there's a purpose for arousal.

643

: 00:28:47

Like the difference between a priest

said it like this, like arousal

644

: 00:28:51

and ob, intentional arousal because

obviously you can get unintentionally

645

: 00:28:55

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

646

: 00:28:56

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: right?

647

: 00:28:56

Um, but intentionally arousing somebody.

648

: 00:28:59

The whole purpose of arousal is

to prepare your body for sex.

649

: 00:29:02

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Right.

650

: 00:29:03

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

is meant for marriage.

651

: 00:29:03

It's not even meant for engagement.

652

: 00:29:05

And so, I know this

653

: 00:29:06

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

654

: 00:29:06

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: to hear, it

was hard for me to hear you guys like,

655

: 00:29:07

because I was taught like, keep your

pants on and everything else is okay.

656

: 00:29:11

657

: 00:29:12

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

658

: 00:29:12

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: I know that

in my life, um, before I learned this.

659

: 00:29:17

I was like, yeah, sure, let's

mutually use each other.

660

: 00:29:20

And Pope John Paul calls that

essentially prostitution, because

661

: 00:29:23

a prostitution, a prostitution,

you're using each other mutually.

662

: 00:29:26

Like someone's like, Hey,

I'll give you money for sex.

663

: 00:29:28

And someone's like, Hey,

I'll give you sex for

664

: 00:29:30

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

665

: 00:29:30

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

That's mutual use.

666

: 00:29:32

And just because you're mutually using

each other doesn't make it any better.

667

: 00:29:35

Right.

668

: 00:29:36

It doesn't make it more okay.

669

: 00:29:37

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

670

: 00:29:37

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: like,

well, I'm allowing you to use me.

671

: 00:29:39

I'm gonna use you.

672

: 00:29:39

No use is evil.

673

: 00:29:42

Like, it literally is evil to use somebody

as an object because we are persons

674

: 00:29:47

and no one is ever meant to be used.

675

: 00:29:49

So I had to confess before my, my

wedding day, I confessed to the priest.

676

: 00:29:53

I said, I confessed like any ways

I've ever given myself to any man

677

: 00:30:00

who was not my husband, who didn't

678

: 00:30:01

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm-hmm.

679

: 00:30:02

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: And because

none of them did, none of no man except

680

: 00:30:05

for my husband, deserved to see any part

of me or use any, have any part of me,

681

: 00:30:09

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

682

: 00:30:09

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

Even my husband doesn't use me.

683

: 00:30:10

He loves me.

684

: 00:30:11

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: All.

685

: 00:30:12

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: Um, but

was like, and for any ways I have used.

686

: 00:30:17

Man, and I've, I have lusted

or, you know, done anything.

687

: 00:30:21

So I look at my past like, gosh, like

I wish I had learned this earlier

688

: 00:30:26

and I wish I had known, like I am

called to love every relationship

689

: 00:30:32

that I am in, whether it is a

romantic relationship or friendship.

690

: 00:30:35

Every single relationship I am called

to lead this person closer to heaven,

691

: 00:30:39

not to lead them closer to hell.

692

: 00:30:42

And that when I use somebody for

my own pleasure, I let them use me.

693

: 00:30:46

That's really a foretaste of hell

and not a foretaste of heaven.

694

: 00:30:49

And so I think it's a

shift we have to have.

695

: 00:30:52

What it says in Romans chapter 12,

it says, offer your bodies as a

696

: 00:30:56

living sacrifice, holy and pleasing

to God, your spiritual worship.

697

: 00:30:59

And then it says this in, in two,

in 12 two, it says, do not conform

698

: 00:31:03

yourselves to this age, but be

transformed by the renewal of

699

: 00:31:07

your minds that you may discern.

700

: 00:31:09

What is the will of God?

701

: 00:31:10

What is good?

702

: 00:31:10

Imp, pleasing, imperfect.

703

: 00:31:11

You guys, our minds have to be

renewed because we have grown in.

704

: 00:31:15

culture and what our

culture thinks love is.

705

: 00:31:18

And we have been brought up

with pornography, which is

706

: 00:31:20

a perfect example of use,

707

: 00:31:22

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yep.

708

: 00:31:22

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: of

using somebody as an object.

709

: 00:31:24

And we have grown up in these waters

and we don't know what love is.

710

: 00:31:28

So we have to have a renewal of the

mind of what is the Lord, see, love.

711

: 00:31:32

And the Lord showed us

what love is on the cross.

712

: 00:31:35

This is exactly where we get

these vows of I promise to love

713

: 00:31:38

you freely, totally faithfully.

714

: 00:31:39

Fruitfully is from the cross.

715

: 00:31:41

It says in scripture one John four

19, we love because he first loved us.

716

: 00:31:46

We only know how to love because how

Jesus loved us and how did he love us?

717

: 00:31:50

From the cross, he laid down his life.

718

: 00:31:52

And if you wanna know

if someone loves you,

719

: 00:31:54

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm.

720

: 00:31:54

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: they

will lay down their life for you.

721

: 00:31:55

They would not use you.

722

: 00:31:56

So when girls come to me and they

723

: 00:31:58

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

724

: 00:31:58

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

questions, just like you receive

725

: 00:31:59

these questions, does he love me?

726

: 00:32:01

I'm like, okay, well first of all,

would he lay his life down for you?

727

: 00:32:04

Secondly, is he willing to wait for you?

728

: 00:32:07

And hopefully, oh, this is the hard thing.

729

: 00:32:09

I don't want you to be a chastity

cop in your relationship.

730

: 00:32:12

That's not the man I want you to marry.

731

: 00:32:14

Like, I want you to marry a

man who's not just like, oh,

732

: 00:32:17

I'll put up with your rules.

733

: 00:32:18

Like, I'll put up with your willing, you

know, your desire to wait till marriage?

734

: 00:32:23

No.

735

: 00:32:23

I, I want for you ladies, like

a man who is like, of course I

736

: 00:32:28

will lay my life down for you.

737

: 00:32:29

I will even die to my own self and

desires for you because I love you.

738

: 00:32:34

I would never wanna use

739

: 00:32:35

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm-hmm.

740

: 00:32:36

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: And

sometimes, like, and I know even when

741

: 00:32:38

I was engaged to Bobby, who is the love

of my life, like, I so, so attracted to

742

: 00:32:43

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Right.

743

: 00:32:43

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

now, you know, 11, 12 years

744

: 00:32:45

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

745

: 00:32:46

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

um, I'm still so attracted.

746

: 00:32:47

I'm like, but when we're engaged,

I'm like, I wanna pounce you,

747

: 00:32:49

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yes.

748

: 00:32:50

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: what?

749

: 00:32:50

I have to protect you.

750

: 00:32:51

If I really love you, I gotta protect

you from myself like I have to because I

751

: 00:32:56

know that my evil desires are to use you.

752

: 00:33:00

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Hmm.

753

: 00:33:00

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: We all,

I mean, just to be so honest, we

754

: 00:33:03

all have a great capacity for good

and we all have a great capacity for

755

: 00:33:06

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm-hmm.

756

: 00:33:07

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: So I'm not

up here, I'm not here saying I'm perfect

757

: 00:33:11

and I don't, I'm not like you guys.

758

: 00:33:13

I have very evil parts of me

that still like, that's why

759

: 00:33:18

I have to go to confession.

760

: 00:33:19

I still have to confess 'cause

there are parts of me that are so

761

: 00:33:21

twisted and evil and I'm like, oh

my gosh, Lord, that's still there.

762

: 00:33:25

And Lord, you have to heal

763

: 00:33:27

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm-hmm.

764

: 00:33:27

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: You

have to heal these evil desires

765

: 00:33:29

that I wanna use people for my

own pleasure or whatever it is.

766

: 00:33:33

And, and so we all have to

recognize that part of us.

767

: 00:33:38

That does want to use and, and kind of

to look like, where does that come from?

768

: 00:33:44

even in my life, is it because

I don't feel good enough and I

769

: 00:33:47

have to grasp at my relationship?

770

: 00:33:50

Or like, maybe I want to use them

because I'm afraid of being alone.

771

: 00:33:53

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

772

: 00:33:54

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: Like

maybe if I give them sex or if I

773

: 00:33:56

give them this, they won't leave me.

774

: 00:33:58

'cause some of us have such a, a part of

us that is so scared someone's gonna leave

775

: 00:34:03

us so we'll, we'll give them anything.

776

: 00:34:04

Like we know, we know those people.

777

: 00:34:06

It's like, that's called codependency.

778

: 00:34:08

We're terrified of being alone.

779

: 00:34:09

And so we will do anything and

everyone, everything to keep somebody.

780

: 00:34:12

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Hmm.

781

: 00:34:13

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: Um, maybe

we're, we feel like no one sees us or

782

: 00:34:16

loves us and we're so afraid of being

rejected that again, we will do anything.

783

: 00:34:19

'cause we just wanna be loved.

784

: 00:34:21

So it's really good to know

ourselves in those places and

785

: 00:34:25

why we do the things we do.

786

: 00:34:26

So even in my own life, I've

had to look like, why do I do

787

: 00:34:28

these things in my friendships?

788

: 00:34:30

Why do I do this in

romantic relationships?

789

: 00:34:33

And I've had to look

really deep into those.

790

: 00:34:36

Those wounded parts of me that I'm like,

ah, it's because I feel like I'm not good

791

: 00:34:41

enough and so I have to do this and this

and this to feel like I'm good enough.

792

: 00:34:45

You know?

793

: 00:34:45

So this all goes very deep

and, um, why we use people.

794

: 00:34:51

But the whole point is the

culture teaches us to lust.

795

: 00:34:53

The culture teaches us that using

people is no big deal, that we're

796

: 00:34:57

actually, the culture teaches

us that we're just animals.

797

: 00:35:00

animals with desires to do whatever you

798

: 00:35:02

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Right.

799

: 00:35:02

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: we know

that as Christians, what real love

800

: 00:35:06

is that real love unconditional,

and it's called agape love.

801

: 00:35:10

That's the fullness of love.

802

: 00:35:12

That real love is sacrificial to

lay our lives down for one another.

803

: 00:35:16

That's what Jesus told us.

804

: 00:35:17

The greatest act of love is to lay your

life down for a friend, he says that, John

805

: 00:35:19

15, and then we know that love is free.

806

: 00:35:23

It can't be coerced.

807

: 00:35:24

It's total, it loves a whole person, not

just the pleasure they give you, but the

808

: 00:35:27

whole person, body, heart, mind, soul.

809

: 00:35:30

It's, it's faithful.

810

: 00:35:32

fruitful.

811

: 00:35:33

So if you wanna know if someone loves

you, you can ask yourself those,

812

: 00:35:36

you can ask yourself that question.

813

: 00:35:38

Do, would they lay down their life for me?

814

: 00:35:40

Um, is it sacrificial?

815

: 00:35:43

Do they love me freely, totally

faithfully, fruit fruitfully,

816

: 00:35:45

or are they just using me

for the pleasure I give them?

817

: 00:35:48

Or the emotional, because some of us use

people just for the emotional pleasure.

818

: 00:35:52

I, I share this at seek that sometimes

as women, we have like stand-in

819

: 00:35:56

boyfriends, like our guy friends, we use

them just for the emotional pleasure.

820

: 00:36:00

And know I, I've totally done this.

821

: 00:36:03

Like I've had guy friends who we

weren't dating, but I'm like, I'm just

822

: 00:36:07

using you until a guy comes along.

823

: 00:36:09

And in a way they were using me too

until their girlfriend came along

824

: 00:36:13

and it was like this mutual use.

825

: 00:36:15

And the question would be, I, I, I had to

ask myself was, if you had a boyfriend,

826

: 00:36:22

would you still be texting this guy

or treating this guy like you are now?

827

: 00:36:26

And if the answer is no,

then it's your, you're using

828

: 00:36:28

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416:

That's good,

829

: 00:36:29

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: You know, oh,

it's a tough question to ask ourselves.

830

: 00:36:33

Like, I had a boyfriend, would I still

be doing this stuff with this guy friend?

831

: 00:36:37

Whether maybe you're, maybe you're like

really even hooking up with this person.

832

: 00:36:39

But I think just even on an

emotional level, the way we're

833

: 00:36:42

texting, are we treating ourselves?

834

: 00:36:44

Are they, are we treating

them like a stand in

835

: 00:36:46

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Sure.

836

: 00:36:46

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

we get a boyfriend?

837

: 00:36:48

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416:

Yeah, all that was really good.

838

: 00:36:49

I think another thing to add too is as

you're outlining all these things to

839

: 00:36:53

look for is that person, that man also

looking for those things because, and

840

: 00:36:59

you brought it up a little bit too, of

just like not just finding a man who

841

: 00:37:03

will tolerate your quote unquote like

standards and rules, but actually finding

842

: 00:37:08

a man who is desiring that for himself.

843

: 00:37:10

Like, and a man who is valuing

a woman who also is looking

844

: 00:37:14

for all of those things, right?

845

: 00:37:16

Because.

846

: 00:37:18

If you're not both.

847

: 00:37:19

I mean, the journey is hard.

848

: 00:37:21

Like this is super hard and

to be chased is really hard,

849

: 00:37:24

especially when you're in love.

850

: 00:37:26

Especially when you're engaged

and you know, like, this is

851

: 00:37:28

the person I'm gonna marry.

852

: 00:37:29

Or when you're discerning that too.

853

: 00:37:31

Um, but yeah, if you're not

both like fighting for that, the

854

: 00:37:36

likelihood of you really being able

to be chased or really like yeah.

855

: 00:37:42

Having a relationship and living

in the way God's created you to is,

856

: 00:37:45

is very low because the second you

are weak, which you will be, right?

857

: 00:37:51

Like I was for sure.

858

: 00:37:53

The second that you are weak in a moment,

if he's not on board and if he's not

859

: 00:37:57

seeking this for himself as well, it'll

be so much easier to fall and to give in.

860

: 00:38:02

'cause it'll be like, oh, like she

let go of her standards for a second.

861

: 00:38:04

Like, you know, this is the

moment we've been waiting for.

862

: 00:38:06

Um,

863

: 00:38:07

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: Oh gosh,

I, that is, that happened so many

864

: 00:38:11

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: yeah.

865

: 00:38:11

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: many

866

: 00:38:12

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

867

: 00:38:12

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

that that was the case.

868

: 00:38:13

Like they were the chassis cop

869

: 00:38:14

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

870

: 00:38:16

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

the moment of weakness, it was

871

: 00:38:17

like the guy was like, great.

872

: 00:38:20

if you don't, yeah.

873

: 00:38:20

If you don't have somebody who.

874

: 00:38:22

Like you can, like I tell girls,

you have to be able to talk

875

: 00:38:26

to your boyfriend about this.

876

: 00:38:27

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Right.

877

: 00:38:28

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: if you're

too afraid to talk to your boyfriend

878

: 00:38:31

about this, they're not your spouse, and

879

: 00:38:33

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yes.

880

: 00:38:33

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: break

up because the purpose of dating

881

: 00:38:35

is to find your future spouse.

882

: 00:38:36

And if you are too afraid to have

these kind of conversations, this

883

: 00:38:38

is not the person you should,

you should not be walking on

884

: 00:38:40

eggshells with the person you're

885

: 00:38:42

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416:

Living in fear

886

: 00:38:43

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: be.

887

: 00:38:44

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416:

they're gonna leave at any moment.

888

: 00:38:46

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: Oh my gosh.

889

: 00:38:47

No, you, you should be

equally yoked and you're

890

: 00:38:49

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

891

: 00:38:49

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

yoked in your spiritual life,

892

: 00:38:52

in your physical life, right?

893

: 00:38:53

Hopefully your intellectual

life, like this person.

894

: 00:38:55

My favorite definition is of marriage,

is that it's friendship with romance.

895

: 00:38:59

This person is your best friend.

896

: 00:39:00

Meaning you can be completely yourself.

897

: 00:39:03

You're not afraid that they're gonna

see a part of you and they're gonna

898

: 00:39:07

ditch you like there should be when

you find the person you're gonna marry.

899

: 00:39:10

There's such like a, a relief,

900

: 00:39:13

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yes.

901

: 00:39:13

Mm-hmm.

902

: 00:39:17

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: in

other relationships with guys.

903

: 00:39:19

I, they were either like, oh,

Jackie, you're too Catholic, or

904

: 00:39:22

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yep.

905

: 00:39:23

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: goofy.

906

: 00:39:23

And I'm like, well, the guy I

marry is gonna love all of that.

907

: 00:39:27

He's gonna love the fact that like, I'm

pretty much a nun, but I'm not taken vow.

908

: 00:39:31

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yes.

909

: 00:39:32

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: saying?

910

: 00:39:32

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yes.

911

: 00:39:33

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: and I

was like, well, Lord, if I could be

912

: 00:39:35

a nun, but I'm not called a be one.

913

: 00:39:36

I need a guy who could be a

priest and is not called a be one.

914

: 00:39:39

And actually, funny enough, like

God brought me Bobby, who was

915

: 00:39:41

in seminary for three years, he

was discerning the priesthood.

916

: 00:39:43

And the two of us love the Lord.

917

: 00:39:45

We love, we love the mass, we

love adoration, we love liturgy.

918

: 00:39:48

The hours we love, like the Lord

brought me someone as nerdy as me.

919

: 00:39:52

And and also the same dump sense of humor.

920

: 00:39:55

Like we both love the office

and we both love parks and rec.

921

: 00:39:57

And so for bot, like I, my friend said his

grandma said there is a lid for every pot.

922

: 00:40:04

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yep.

923

: 00:40:04

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: Like, so true.

924

: 00:40:06

If you are like.

925

: 00:40:08

The kind of girl who loves

Lord of the Rings, guess what?

926

: 00:40:10

There's a guy out there for

927

: 00:40:11

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yep.

928

: 00:40:12

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: you're

the kind of girl who loves Pride and

929

: 00:40:14

prejudice and you love classic novels,

there's a guy out there for you.

930

: 00:40:18

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yes.

931

: 00:40:19

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: know, I

just, it's, they're out there and you

932

: 00:40:21

don't have to, now obviously there's

some things that like interest, my

933

: 00:40:25

husband has that, I'm like, whatever.

934

: 00:40:28

But I love my husband.

935

: 00:40:29

Like the fact that he plays

video games, that was like,

936

: 00:40:31

okay, I, I'm not necessarily

like a huge video game fan except

937

: 00:40:35

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: sure.

938

: 00:40:35

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: young, I

played Mario Kart and whatever, and

939

: 00:40:37

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Right.

940

: 00:40:38

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: we

actually play Mario Kart with our

941

: 00:40:39

kids every Tuesday and Thursday

we have family competition.

942

: 00:40:43

So, but that's not a make or break.

943

: 00:40:45

The, the make or break was, is this same?

944

: 00:40:47

Is this a man that we

are on the same page?

945

: 00:40:49

Is this a man who is my best friend,

who loves all of me and I love all of

946

: 00:40:53

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: mm-hmm.

947

: 00:40:53

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: Full stop.

948

: 00:40:55

Um, and that I feel completely

safe in, in with this person.

949

: 00:41:01

I feel completely safe to be, show all the

parts of me and he's not gonna be scared

950

: 00:41:06

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah.

951

: 00:41:06

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

Whereas other boyfriends, there was

952

: 00:41:09

this fear of bringing things up.

953

: 00:41:11

There was this fear that if they,

I show this part of me, they're

954

: 00:41:14

gonna, they're gonna ditch me.

955

: 00:41:15

And with Bobby it's like, we did have

our arguments, we did have our, 'cause

956

: 00:41:19

you have different expectations, you

have different ways of looking at life.

957

: 00:41:23

And so you are gonna have arguments.

958

: 00:41:25

And when bar, when Bobby and I

would have those arguments and

959

: 00:41:28

make up, I fell more in love with

960

: 00:41:30

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm-hmm.

961

: 00:41:31

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

because when we made up, it was

962

: 00:41:33

like, I have more respect for

this man with other boyfriends.

963

: 00:41:37

After those arguments, I'd feel this like,

964

: 00:41:39

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Mm-hmm.

965

: 00:41:40

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: like I feel

kind of less in love with this person.

966

: 00:41:43

Whereas with Bobby, I felt more in love.

967

: 00:41:45

So you, I, when you meet the person,

oh man, they, there's a reason people

968

: 00:41:51

say, you know when you know and you

know when you know, because it's

969

: 00:41:54

for the first time in your life.

970

: 00:41:56

this sense of safety and peace like

you would your best girlfriends, you

971

: 00:42:01

feel like I can be completely myself.

972

: 00:42:03

This, this relationship is life

giving, not life sucking, huh?

973

: 00:42:06

Like I, I feel peace and joy in

this relationship and I don't have

974

: 00:42:11

to pretend to be somebody else.

975

: 00:42:12

So there is that sense, um,

of safety with that person.

976

: 00:42:17

And I will say, I know that

there's a growing population

977

: 00:42:20

of people who have anxiety.

978

: 00:42:21

And so, um, back in the day,

like the stat used to be 20% of

979

: 00:42:25

people have kind of a generalized

anxiety and now it's even higher.

980

: 00:42:29

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Totally.

981

: 00:42:30

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: I have

talked, I I've, I've sorted this out with

982

: 00:42:32

a friend who's a, a couple therapists

actually, and asked this question, like,

983

: 00:42:36

even if you do have anxiety in your

general life, can, how do you discern

984

: 00:42:41

if somebody is the one person you're

gonna, you're, you're gonna marry.

985

: 00:42:44

And they're like, listen, even if

you have a generalized anxiety, when

986

: 00:42:47

you do meet the person and you're

gonna marry, there still will be

987

: 00:42:50

sense of peace about this person.

988

: 00:42:52

Like, you know that this person.

989

: 00:42:54

You're still safe with

this person and Right.

990

: 00:42:56

They're your best friend and

you're attracted to them.

991

: 00:42:58

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: Yeah,

992

: 00:42:59

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414: I think

sometimes we just try too hard, like we

993

: 00:43:01

try to make the shoe fit when it doesn't

994

: 00:43:02

mari-wagner_1_04-02-2025_130416: totally.

995

: 00:43:03

jackie_1_04-02-2025_140414:

know we all do that.

996

: 00:43:04

We all rationalize the wrong

relationships, like, and we make,

997

: 00:43:08

we try to make, oh, it's gonna fit.

998

: 00:43:09

This is the guy, and

when it's not, you know?

999

: 00:43:12

when it is the person you do, you

know, and there is a sense of safety

: 1000

00:43:16,713 --> 00:43:18,528

and peace and joy with that person.

: 1001

00:43:19,083 --> 00:43:19,443

-: 2025

: 1002

00:43:19,443 --> 00:43:20,163

No, totally.

: 1003

00:43:20,163 --> 00:43:23,823

And I feel like we already started kind

of touching on this next question, but

: 1004

00:43:23,823 --> 00:43:27,783

basically I, I wanted to get into like

what are some specific ways that women

: 1005

00:43:28,023 --> 00:43:32,283

can approach dating differently when she

really understands theology of the body

: 1006

00:43:32,283 --> 00:43:37,023

and understands how God created her men

and women and that beautiful plan he

: 1007

00:43:37,023 --> 00:43:39,693

has for them, especially in marriage.

: 1008

00:43:39,963 --> 00:43:42,873

Um, what are some ways that

women can now like approach

: 1009

00:43:42,873 --> 00:43:44,313

dating in a different mindset?

: 1010

00:43:45,663 --> 00:43:45,993

-: 2025

: 1011

00:43:46,053 --> 00:43:47,253

That's a great question.

: 1012

00:43:47,373 --> 00:43:47,853

So.

: 1013

00:43:48,183 --> 00:43:52,563

One of the ways is recognizing, okay,

every single dating relationship, the goal

: 1014

00:43:52,563 --> 00:43:54,333

is for me to lead this person to heaven,

: 1015

00:43:55,278 --> 00:43:55,398

-: 2025

: 1016

00:43:55,503 --> 00:43:57,453

-: 2025

this is not, and, and my other thing

: 1017

00:43:57,453 --> 00:43:58,803

is like, don't waste your time.

: 1018

00:43:59,238 --> 00:44:02,568

Your time is precious, that

God has a plan for you.

: 1019

00:44:02,568 --> 00:44:04,938

And when you realize, when you

realize that dating, the purpose

: 1020

00:44:04,938 --> 00:44:06,138

of dating is to find your spouse.

: 1021

00:44:06,378 --> 00:44:08,748

When you realize that a person is not

your spouse, don't waste your time.

: 1022

00:44:09,618 --> 00:44:13,488

And I know, I know for

me, I hate conflict.

: 1023

00:44:13,698 --> 00:44:16,878

And I think breaking up is

one of the most, ugh, cringey.

: 1024

00:44:16,878 --> 00:44:18,018

It's like so hard when

: 1025

00:44:18,063 --> 00:44:18,423

-: 2025

: 1026

00:44:18,468 --> 00:44:20,058

-: 2025

conflict to break off.

: 1027

00:44:20,118 --> 00:44:25,008

But were, there was a time that

God made me put my, you know,

: 1028

00:44:25,008 --> 00:44:26,118

the money where my mouth was.

: 1029

00:44:26,118 --> 00:44:29,568

Like I was speaking about all this

before I was married and God brought

: 1030

00:44:29,568 --> 00:44:33,738

me like, I, I'm telling you, like four

guys in 24 hours asked me on a date.

: 1031

00:44:33,738 --> 00:44:36,138

And I was like, okay, I guess,

Lord, you're bringing these guys

: 1032

00:44:36,138 --> 00:44:37,698

for me to practice what I'm saying.

: 1033

00:44:38,028 --> 00:44:42,378

'cause I was talking about dating and

how, okay, so this is, there's, there's

: 1034

00:44:42,378 --> 00:44:44,388

actually a film called The Dating Project.

: 1035

00:44:44,628 --> 00:44:45,318

It's really good.

: 1036

00:44:45,318 --> 00:44:48,018

It's a documentary about this

Boston College professor who gives

: 1037

00:44:48,018 --> 00:44:50,598

this project ask people on dates.

: 1038

00:44:50,598 --> 00:44:54,198

And she's like, the first date

should really just be like coffee,

: 1039

00:44:54,318 --> 00:44:54,668

-: 2025

: 1040

00:44:54,768 --> 00:44:55,848

-: 2025

know somebody, right?

: 1041

00:44:55,848 --> 00:44:57,738

It shouldn't be longer than an hour.

: 1042

00:44:58,233 --> 00:45:01,593

Because I've seen this happen where people

have like these six hour first dates

: 1043

00:45:01,688 --> 00:45:01,978

-: 2025

: 1044

00:45:02,043 --> 00:45:03,723

-: 2025

they like are so in love and they

: 1045

00:45:03,723 --> 00:45:06,843

go on a second date and like,

oh, that was not the same person.

: 1046

00:45:07,143 --> 00:45:10,713

It's like, yeah, and you just wasted six

hours and you totally we're infatuated

: 1047

00:45:10,713 --> 00:45:13,953

with this person on your first date when

you could have taken a little slower.

: 1048

00:45:14,313 --> 00:45:18,093

Um, so go to coffee dating

is just getting to know

: 1049

00:45:18,443 --> 00:45:18,863

-: 2025

: 1050

00:45:18,933 --> 00:45:20,613

-: 2025

you could be going on dates with

: 1051

00:45:20,613 --> 00:45:24,663

other people with the caveat that

you're like, this is not physical.

: 1052

00:45:24,663 --> 00:45:26,313

You're not making out with this person.

: 1053

00:45:26,313 --> 00:45:28,323

You know that you're just

getting to know somebody.

: 1054

00:45:28,743 --> 00:45:32,733

So she's like, go on a first date, ask

someone on date and say the word date.

: 1055

00:45:33,633 --> 00:45:35,343

because a lot of people will be

like, Hey, want to hang out with,

: 1056

00:45:35,343 --> 00:45:36,363

especially guys will do that to us.

: 1057

00:45:36,363 --> 00:45:37,353

Like, Hey, you want to hang out?

: 1058

00:45:37,353 --> 00:45:39,633

And I would clarify if you're a

girl likes it, is this a date?

: 1059

00:45:40,083 --> 00:45:40,863

Like are you taking me on a

: 1060

00:45:41,003 --> 00:45:41,293

-: 2025

: 1061

00:45:41,643 --> 00:45:43,413

-: 2025

And to make them step up a

: 1062

00:45:43,543 --> 00:45:44,033

-: 2025

: 1063

00:45:44,163 --> 00:45:45,813

-: 2025

and I'm also, I tell guys, I'm

: 1064

00:45:45,813 --> 00:45:47,613

like, guys, ask girls on dates.

: 1065

00:45:47,808 --> 00:45:48,138

-: 2025

: 1066

00:45:48,153 --> 00:45:48,303

-: 2025

: 1067

00:45:48,543 --> 00:45:48,763

-: 2025

: 1068

00:45:48,783 --> 00:45:49,263

-: 2025

: 1069

00:45:49,473 --> 00:45:52,383

And ladies, if a guy, if a guy asks

you on a date, unless you're afraid

: 1070

00:45:52,383 --> 00:45:55,563

he's gonna murder you, like say yes.

: 1071

00:45:55,563 --> 00:45:56,763

Like give the guy a chance, right?

: 1072

00:45:56,763 --> 00:45:59,913

So there were these couple guys,

I gave him a chance, like, and I

: 1073

00:45:59,913 --> 00:46:02,043

was thinking like, I don't think

this is the guy for me, but you

: 1074

00:46:02,043 --> 00:46:02,853

know what, I'll give him a chance.

: 1075

00:46:02,853 --> 00:46:07,533

So I went on a first date and one of

'em, I went on a second date with a

: 1076

00:46:07,533 --> 00:46:10,863

couple of them after the first date,

I realized, like, I was thinking in my

: 1077

00:46:10,863 --> 00:46:12,873

head like, these are really good guys.

: 1078

00:46:12,873 --> 00:46:16,083

Like, just at a basic level, I wouldn't

go on a date with a guy who wasn't a good

: 1079

00:46:16,268 --> 00:46:16,558

-: 2025

: 1080

00:46:17,043 --> 00:46:19,233

-: 2025

so I was already thinking like,

: 1081

00:46:19,233 --> 00:46:20,553

who could I set this guy up with?

: 1082

00:46:20,553 --> 00:46:23,553

Like literally one of the

guys, I was like, he's a really

: 1083

00:46:23,553 --> 00:46:24,813

good guy, just not for me.

: 1084

00:46:24,838 --> 00:46:25,128

-: 2025

: 1085

00:46:25,203 --> 00:46:28,623

-: 2025

just not, we just don't gel, not my type.

: 1086

00:46:28,623 --> 00:46:29,193

That's okay.

: 1087

00:46:29,193 --> 00:46:30,153

And that's okay.

: 1088

00:46:30,543 --> 00:46:32,553

That like, again, there is a lid for every

: 1089

00:46:32,668 --> 00:46:32,888

-: 2025

: 1090

00:46:33,063 --> 00:46:35,163

-: 2025

this guy's lid was for a different pot.

: 1091

00:46:35,163 --> 00:46:38,013

So this one guy.

: 1092

00:46:38,778 --> 00:46:42,708

funny, he actually ended up marrying

a friend of mine and perfect together.

: 1093

00:46:42,768 --> 00:46:43,578

They were perfect together.

: 1094

00:46:43,848 --> 00:46:47,538

But he asked me on another date and

I just said, A friend of mine was

: 1095

00:46:47,538 --> 00:46:51,258

like, if a guy asks the guy friend

of mine, he's like, don't lead guys

: 1096

00:46:51,603 --> 00:46:52,113

-: 2025

: 1097

00:46:52,383 --> 00:46:52,683

Totally.

: 1098

00:46:52,788 --> 00:46:54,408

-: 2025

to sometimes rip the man aid off

: 1099

00:46:54,408 --> 00:46:56,598

and it's gonna be difficult, but

it's better than leading them on.

: 1100

00:46:56,598 --> 00:46:57,498

It's better than ghosting them.

: 1101

00:46:57,498 --> 00:47:01,428

So he's like, if a guy asks you on

another date, just say thank you, but

: 1102

00:47:01,428 --> 00:47:03,168

I won't be going on any further dates.

: 1103

00:47:03,768 --> 00:47:06,618

And I had a guy say to me like,

was there anything I did wrong?

: 1104

00:47:06,618 --> 00:47:09,348

I was like, no, you were a total

gentleman, but like, I just don't

: 1105

00:47:09,348 --> 00:47:11,298

think we were right for each other.

: 1106

00:47:11,448 --> 00:47:11,718

-: 2025

: 1107

00:47:11,718 --> 00:47:14,868

-: 2025

and he's like, well thank you.

: 1108

00:47:15,048 --> 00:47:18,618

He's like, even though that's hard to

hear, thank you for being so direct.

: 1109

00:47:18,828 --> 00:47:23,028

And it's like, write better than leading

somebody on, better than ghosting

: 1110

00:47:23,088 --> 00:47:23,238

-: 2025

: 1111

00:47:23,238 --> 00:47:24,678

You don't wanna waste any time.

: 1112

00:47:25,518 --> 00:47:26,388

-: 2025

don't waste your time.

: 1113

00:47:26,478 --> 00:47:29,328

Don't waste their time from

finding their vocation 'cause.

: 1114

00:47:29,718 --> 00:47:32,538

Oh man, I, and I know I've

done that in relationships,

: 1115

00:47:32,538 --> 00:47:34,248

like I wasted too long of time.

: 1116

00:47:34,248 --> 00:47:36,408

Like I probably knew within the

first month I should have broken

: 1117

00:47:36,408 --> 00:47:37,668

it off and I wasted nine months.

: 1118

00:47:39,018 --> 00:47:39,858

it's like, dang.

: 1119

00:47:40,398 --> 00:47:43,398

Because just not listening to

the Lord, listening to that

: 1120

00:47:43,398 --> 00:47:44,928

feeling like, this isn't your

: 1121

00:47:44,963 --> 00:47:45,383

-: 2025

: 1122

00:47:45,858 --> 00:47:47,208

-: 2025

you're just like, well, and again,

: 1123

00:47:47,208 --> 00:47:48,048

you're trying to make a shoe fit.

: 1124

00:47:48,048 --> 00:47:52,548

So for dating, I would recommend

going on a couple dates,

: 1125

00:47:52,788 --> 00:47:53,988

maybe one, two or three dates.

: 1126

00:47:53,988 --> 00:47:56,898

And after those couple dates, so the

second date, you know, maybe it's a little

: 1127

00:47:56,898 --> 00:47:58,308

longer, you're getting to know each other.

: 1128

00:47:58,998 --> 00:48:01,488

then maybe after you realize

after a few dates, you realize

: 1129

00:48:01,488 --> 00:48:03,228

like, I really like this person.

: 1130

00:48:04,158 --> 00:48:06,288

it, conversations are kind of flowing.

: 1131

00:48:06,378 --> 00:48:09,228

Like, I get excited when

I think about this person.

: 1132

00:48:09,233 --> 00:48:10,608

Um, I'm attracted to them.

: 1133

00:48:10,968 --> 00:48:12,888

That's where it can become exclusive.

: 1134

00:48:13,248 --> 00:48:17,448

And now you're, you're having

the intention of, okay, like

: 1135

00:48:18,138 --> 00:48:19,488

this is leading somewhere.

: 1136

00:48:19,608 --> 00:48:20,928

We're looking at marriage now,

: 1137

00:48:21,038 --> 00:48:21,328

-: 2025

: 1138

00:48:21,548 --> 00:48:22,048

Do you see

: 1139

00:48:22,068 --> 00:48:22,158

-: 2025

: 1140

00:48:22,408 --> 00:48:22,608

-: 2025

: 1141

00:48:22,638 --> 00:48:22,968

-: 2025

: 1142

00:48:23,118 --> 00:48:23,648

-: 2025

this person?

: 1143

00:48:24,513 --> 00:48:24,873

-: 2025

: 1144

00:48:25,143 --> 00:48:28,503

And then at that point, when you're

exclusive, that's when you start to see

: 1145

00:48:28,503 --> 00:48:33,213

each other, like with your friends, with

your family, and you either have those

: 1146

00:48:33,273 --> 00:48:39,243

continued moments of, oh wow, I love this

person even more after these arguments,

: 1147

00:48:39,243 --> 00:48:41,493

after these moments where I see them

with their family and their friends.

: 1148

00:48:41,523 --> 00:48:45,333

Or there's like, oh no, this

person isn't who I thought they

: 1149

00:48:45,468 --> 00:48:45,888

-: 2025

: 1150

00:48:46,383 --> 00:48:48,603

-: 2025

a lot of us can, and I've had friends

: 1151

00:48:48,603 --> 00:48:50,793

who've done this, and I've probably

done this too, where we're like in

: 1152

00:48:50,793 --> 00:48:53,733

love with the idea of the person, but

we're not actually in love with the

: 1153

00:48:54,063 --> 00:48:54,353

-: 2025

: 1154

00:48:55,413 --> 00:48:55,773

-: 2025

: 1155

00:48:55,773 --> 00:48:57,813

And that happens sometimes

with long distance.

: 1156

00:48:57,823 --> 00:48:58,113

-: 2025

: 1157

00:48:58,173 --> 00:49:00,123

-: 2025

know this is where sometimes you're

: 1158

00:49:00,123 --> 00:49:02,223

long distance and you're like in

love with the idea of the person.

: 1159

00:49:02,223 --> 00:49:03,393

Then when you're actually

together, you're like,

: 1160

00:49:04,053 --> 00:49:04,473

-: 2025

: 1161

00:49:05,163 --> 00:49:06,693

-: 2025

So listen to those things.

: 1162

00:49:06,723 --> 00:49:10,653

Um, but I think it's really good

to have a framework of dating.

: 1163

00:49:10,653 --> 00:49:15,033

Like, let's go on some dates, get

to know each other, and then after

: 1164

00:49:15,093 --> 00:49:19,203

those couple dates you, you date and

become exclusive and really between

: 1165

00:49:19,203 --> 00:49:20,913

three and six months, you should know.

: 1166

00:49:22,113 --> 00:49:24,333

You should know within those

three to six months if you

: 1167

00:49:24,333 --> 00:49:25,443

are in person with each other.

: 1168

00:49:25,443 --> 00:49:29,463

If it's not long distance and you're able

to be with each other enough, you really

: 1169

00:49:29,463 --> 00:49:34,503

do know if it's the person like Mari, how

long did it take you to know your spouse?

: 1170

00:49:35,403 --> 00:49:36,303

Like was the guy?

: 1171

00:49:36,333 --> 00:49:37,053

How long did it take?

: 1172

00:49:37,053 --> 00:49:37,323

You

: 1173

00:49:37,323 --> 00:49:37,953

-: 2025

Three weeks,

: 1174

00:49:38,763 --> 00:49:39,033

-: 2025

: 1175

00:49:39,063 --> 00:49:39,603

There you go.

: 1176

00:49:40,023 --> 00:49:41,043

-: 2025

to be totally honest.

: 1177

00:49:41,043 --> 00:49:42,363

It was, it was three weeks.

: 1178

00:49:42,603 --> 00:49:47,793

But, um, but like in our actual dating

like conversations, I mean, yeah, I

: 1179

00:49:47,793 --> 00:49:52,413

think we brought it up by around month

three, where we were both like, yeah,

: 1180

00:49:52,413 --> 00:49:56,223

I mean, I think you're the one, you

know, like I can really see myself

: 1181

00:49:56,223 --> 00:49:58,443

marrying you and I totally agree.

: 1182

00:49:58,443 --> 00:50:00,933

I think within six months, that's

usually what I tell people.

: 1183

00:50:00,933 --> 00:50:04,773

I'm like, in the first six months,

especially, I think once you're, I

: 1184

00:50:04,773 --> 00:50:07,923

would say like even in college, but

especially out of college, like you

: 1185

00:50:07,923 --> 00:50:10,713

should know, you know, you, you know

what you're looking for, you know

: 1186

00:50:10,713 --> 00:50:13,113

what your values are, you know what

you're looking for in a future spouse.

: 1187

00:50:13,113 --> 00:50:16,953

And six months is, is definitely

sufficient time to get to know someone.

: 1188

00:50:17,998 --> 00:50:18,198

-: 2025

: 1189

00:50:18,198 --> 00:50:20,868

And you know, as you get older, you

start to get to know yourself more.

: 1190

00:50:20,898 --> 00:50:23,328

Like there are guys I dated in

my early twenties, and I'm like,

: 1191

00:50:24,408 --> 00:50:25,428

would not have married them.

: 1192

00:50:25,503 --> 00:50:25,683

-: 2025

: 1193

00:50:25,818 --> 00:50:26,988

-: 2025

the, you know what I'm saying?

: 1194

00:50:27,018 --> 00:50:29,928

Like, you, as you get older,

you get to know yourself better.

: 1195

00:50:29,928 --> 00:50:30,768

You know what you need.

: 1196

00:50:30,798 --> 00:50:32,148

You know what compliments you better.

: 1197

00:50:32,478 --> 00:50:34,818

Like Bobby and I, we were

friends for a year and a half.

: 1198

00:50:34,878 --> 00:50:37,458

Um, we met at a Theology

of the Body Conference.

: 1199

00:50:37,458 --> 00:50:40,128

The next time we remet it was

like, whoa, like I think this

: 1200

00:50:40,128 --> 00:50:41,208

could be my future spouse.

: 1201

00:50:41,208 --> 00:50:44,928

And two months later he flew out from

Florida, maybe like a month and a

: 1202

00:50:44,928 --> 00:50:46,158

half later, he flew out from Florida.

: 1203

00:50:46,158 --> 00:50:48,588

We came on a, we went on a date.

: 1204

00:50:48,588 --> 00:50:49,878

He came out with his brother.

: 1205

00:50:49,938 --> 00:50:51,648

He met my family, my

friends, we went on a date.

: 1206

00:50:51,648 --> 00:50:52,938

He went home and he bought the ring.

: 1207

00:50:52,938 --> 00:50:53,478

-: 2025

Oh my gosh.

: 1208

00:50:53,568 --> 00:50:54,438

-: 2025

then he moved to Cal.

: 1209

00:50:54,438 --> 00:50:56,058

I mean, he literally,

it was like Jim Halpert,

: 1210

00:50:56,133 --> 00:50:56,733

-: 2025

I love that.

: 1211

00:50:56,778 --> 00:50:57,798

-: 2025

after one official date,

: 1212

00:50:57,863 --> 00:50:58,083

-: 2025

: 1213

00:50:58,308 --> 00:50:59,718

-: 2025

then he proposed three months later.

: 1214

00:50:59,718 --> 00:51:04,608

He would've proposed the next week, but

just for sake of like propriety, he was

: 1215

00:51:04,608 --> 00:51:05,898

like, I'll wait three months, you know?

: 1216

00:51:06,043 --> 00:51:06,823

-: 2025

That's so funny.

: 1217

00:51:06,948 --> 00:51:08,088

-: 2025

mean, it was like,

: 1218

00:51:08,343 --> 00:51:08,693

-: 2025

: 1219

00:51:08,853 --> 00:51:09,198

-: 2025

: 1220

00:51:10,133 --> 00:51:10,423

-: 2025

: 1221

00:51:11,193 --> 00:51:12,663

-: 2025

Here, this is the man

: 1222

00:51:12,768 --> 00:51:13,068

-: 2025

: 1223

00:51:13,173 --> 00:51:13,713

-: 2025

: 1224

00:51:13,713 --> 00:51:14,643

Like this is the person.

: 1225

00:51:14,643 --> 00:51:16,323

Like, whoa.

: 1226

00:51:16,503 --> 00:51:21,033

And then as you're going along in

time, you're seeing, kind of seeing

: 1227

00:51:21,033 --> 00:51:23,283

like, am is my, am I duping myself?

: 1228

00:51:23,283 --> 00:51:25,833

You know, like I in love

with the idea of this person?

: 1229

00:51:25,833 --> 00:51:28,383

And you start seeing the reality

of the person and, and Bobby

: 1230

00:51:28,383 --> 00:51:29,793

spiritual director said that to him.

: 1231

00:51:29,793 --> 00:51:34,173

He said, make sure you are more in

love with the reality than the romance.

: 1232

00:51:35,118 --> 00:51:35,538

-: 2025

That's good.

: 1233

00:51:35,763 --> 00:51:39,333

-: 2025

are having sex with your boyfriend or

: 1234

00:51:39,363 --> 00:51:42,753

you know, or if your guy listening to

this podcast and your girlfriend, or if

: 1235

00:51:42,753 --> 00:51:46,713

you are unchained in your relationship,

I will be so honest with you.

: 1236

00:51:46,863 --> 00:51:51,213

You're making that discernment a

million times harder because you are

: 1237

00:51:51,213 --> 00:51:54,513

bond, you are bonding yourself to

this person like they are your spouse.

: 1238

00:51:55,488 --> 00:51:57,708

Your discernment gets super cloudy.

: 1239

00:51:57,798 --> 00:51:58,998

I mean, that's what the devil does.

: 1240

00:51:58,998 --> 00:52:02,448

The devil when it comes

to sin, our judgment.

: 1241

00:52:02,718 --> 00:52:05,418

I mean, it's, it's, so, this is

the analogy of like, when you go

: 1242

00:52:05,418 --> 00:52:08,148

to confession, it's like you're

seeing out a clear window, right?

: 1243

00:52:08,538 --> 00:52:11,808

It says in scripture, in blessed

Jesus said, blessed of the pure

: 1244

00:52:11,808 --> 00:52:13,068

of heart, for thy shall see God.

: 1245

00:52:13,248 --> 00:52:17,538

And as we sin, imagine just like bugs

are being smashed on the window and

: 1246

00:52:17,538 --> 00:52:19,608

like your, your judgment gets way.

: 1247

00:52:19,608 --> 00:52:22,248

You're, you're not able to see the

Lord and his will and you're not

: 1248

00:52:22,248 --> 00:52:23,508

able to discern as clearly, like

: 1249

00:52:23,658 --> 00:52:23,988

-: 2025

: 1250

00:52:24,378 --> 00:52:25,488

-: 2025

you're getting super cloudy.

: 1251

00:52:25,488 --> 00:52:30,858

So when you are in a relationship,

your discernment gets super dicey.

: 1252

00:52:31,008 --> 00:52:31,548

-: 2025

I'm glad you.

: 1253

00:52:31,638 --> 00:52:33,468

-: 2025

are not in a, not in a state of

: 1254

00:52:33,798 --> 00:52:34,278

-: 2025

: 1255

00:52:34,548 --> 00:52:34,968

Yeah.

: 1256

00:52:34,968 --> 00:52:37,308

And that's something I definitely

wanna touch on too, because,

: 1257

00:52:37,383 --> 00:52:39,168

and, and keep, keep rolling here.

: 1258

00:52:39,168 --> 00:52:40,758

I just wanna insert this question.

: 1259

00:52:41,148 --> 00:52:46,008

Um, as relationships get more serious and

as you get into engagement, especially,

: 1260

00:52:46,158 --> 00:52:50,388

you know, women in their twenties that

are like in the adult world in their

: 1261

00:52:50,388 --> 00:52:56,028

life, I start seeing more and more,

um, that sex and living together is

: 1262

00:52:56,028 --> 00:52:59,568

a part of the discernment of, is this

the person I'm supposed to marry?

: 1263

00:52:59,568 --> 00:53:04,428

And a lot of people feel that like that

is necessary to discern if this is the

: 1264

00:53:04,428 --> 00:53:05,778

person that they're supposed to marry.

: 1265

00:53:06,018 --> 00:53:08,388

Now, Jackie, could you

please speak to that?

: 1266

00:53:08,388 --> 00:53:12,378

And maybe what our faith teaches

us and, and science, honestly, it's

: 1267

00:53:12,378 --> 00:53:14,838

not just our faith, but, um, yeah.

: 1268

00:53:14,838 --> 00:53:17,958

What would you say to women who are like,

wait, but like, I feel like we have to

: 1269

00:53:17,988 --> 00:53:19,368

live together before we get married.

: 1270

00:53:19,368 --> 00:53:23,298

Or sex is part of figuring out like

if we're compatible or not as spouses.

: 1271

00:53:24,063 --> 00:53:24,363

-: 2025

: 1272

00:53:24,363 --> 00:53:26,403

People, I mean, people use

that analogy all the time.

: 1273

00:53:26,403 --> 00:53:28,143

Like, you have to drive

the car, you have to

: 1274

00:53:28,218 --> 00:53:29,148

-: 2025

Test drive the car.

: 1275

00:53:29,148 --> 00:53:29,358

Yep.

: 1276

00:53:29,958 --> 00:53:30,708

-: 2025

Human beings are

: 1277

00:53:30,753 --> 00:53:31,173

-: 2025

: 1278

00:53:31,668 --> 00:53:33,468

-: 2025

are not meant to be test driven.

: 1279

00:53:33,768 --> 00:53:34,908

I completely knew.

: 1280

00:53:34,953 --> 00:53:36,948

I, I loved and wanted

to pounce my husband.

: 1281

00:53:36,948 --> 00:53:37,818

I never had sex with him.

: 1282

00:53:37,818 --> 00:53:38,328

You know what I'm saying?

: 1283

00:53:38,333 --> 00:53:38,623

-: 2025

: 1284

00:53:38,868 --> 00:53:42,528

-: 2025

I, attractiveness is not just sex.

: 1285

00:53:42,528 --> 00:53:45,378

And actually that is when you get married.

: 1286

00:53:45,678 --> 00:53:47,808

I think when you're single, you

think that you're having sex all the

: 1287

00:53:47,953 --> 00:53:48,303

-: 2025

: 1288

00:53:48,438 --> 00:53:52,458

-: 2025

like I calculated it, uh, I calculated

: 1289

00:53:52,458 --> 00:53:57,198

it and, and, and literally, I,

I I I, if you were having sex

: 1290

00:53:57,198 --> 00:53:59,298

every day, which is actually not

: 1291

00:53:59,543 --> 00:53:59,833

-: 2025

: 1292

00:53:59,958 --> 00:54:00,288

-: 2025

: 1293

00:54:00,288 --> 00:54:03,198

Most, most married couples, this

the average, and this is kind

: 1294

00:54:03,198 --> 00:54:05,898

of a sad statistic, the average

couple, they have like sex once a

: 1295

00:54:06,063 --> 00:54:06,483

-: 2025

: 1296

00:54:06,588 --> 00:54:06,978

-: 2025

: 1297

00:54:07,398 --> 00:54:09,648

Which is a super small

percentage of your time.

: 1298

00:54:10,083 --> 00:54:10,373

-: 2025

: 1299

00:54:10,458 --> 00:54:13,038

-: 2025

having sex every day, that's like 4% for

: 1300

00:54:13,038 --> 00:54:14,958

like an hour, which again is generous.

: 1301

00:54:15,288 --> 00:54:16,998

Um, that's like 4% of your time.

: 1302

00:54:17,058 --> 00:54:17,838

That's not even real.

: 1303

00:54:17,988 --> 00:54:21,198

Your, your relationship has

to be built on a friendship.

: 1304

00:54:21,283 --> 00:54:21,503

-: 2025

: 1305

00:54:21,978 --> 00:54:22,008

-: 2025

: 1306

00:54:24,678 --> 00:54:28,938

of your time, and this is with like

just an average couple, like 99.9%

: 1307

00:54:28,938 --> 00:54:31,668

of your time is your, is your

friendship with this person?

: 1308

00:54:32,328 --> 00:54:34,128

It is not your sexual chemistry.

: 1309

00:54:34,188 --> 00:54:36,618

Now you have to be attracted to

this person 'cause you are gonna

: 1310

00:54:36,618 --> 00:54:37,518

be making love to this person.

: 1311

00:54:37,548 --> 00:54:40,158

'cause there are some Catholics

who are like, oh, love is a choice.

: 1312

00:54:40,158 --> 00:54:40,728

Just marry them.

: 1313

00:54:40,728 --> 00:54:42,138

And I'm like, that's terrible advice.

: 1314

00:54:42,288 --> 00:54:43,338

You have to be attract.

: 1315

00:54:43,338 --> 00:54:45,708

But attractiveness is more than just sex.

: 1316

00:54:45,978 --> 00:54:48,018

Attractiveness is the whole person.

: 1317

00:54:48,348 --> 00:54:50,118

So you don't need to be living together.

: 1318

00:54:50,118 --> 00:54:53,688

In fact, our church teaches

that cohabitation is a

: 1319

00:54:53,688 --> 00:54:55,308

grave sin in a couple ways.

: 1320

00:54:55,398 --> 00:54:57,648

Number one, it's a grave temptation.

: 1321

00:54:57,678 --> 00:54:58,398

Like it's a mess.

: 1322

00:54:58,668 --> 00:55:00,768

There's no way I could

have lived with my husband.

: 1323

00:55:00,948 --> 00:55:03,258

I mean, I was in the same room with

him and I wanted to pounce him.

: 1324

00:55:03,258 --> 00:55:03,408

You know

: 1325

00:55:03,448 --> 00:55:03,738

-: 2025

: 1326

00:55:03,768 --> 00:55:05,988

-: 2025

come on, if you're, if you're telling

: 1327

00:55:05,988 --> 00:55:09,708

me I should sleep in the same bed as

him and try nothing, that is, that is

: 1328

00:55:09,968 --> 00:55:10,258

-: 2025

: 1329

00:55:10,368 --> 00:55:12,348

-: 2025

then it's also a great scandal.

: 1330

00:55:12,378 --> 00:55:13,518

It's a great scandal.

: 1331

00:55:13,518 --> 00:55:15,978

Like if, can you, like, if Bobby

and I were living together.

: 1332

00:55:16,698 --> 00:55:19,878

It would be a grave scandal to everyone

else knowing that we were living

: 1333

00:55:19,878 --> 00:55:21,288

together, even if we didn't do anything.

: 1334

00:55:21,333 --> 00:55:21,513

-: 2025

: 1335

00:55:21,798 --> 00:55:22,818

-: 2025

are assuming that you're having

: 1336

00:55:22,993 --> 00:55:23,328

-: 2025

Of course.

: 1337

00:55:23,568 --> 00:55:25,908

-: 2025

a grave sin because, not because

: 1338

00:55:25,908 --> 00:55:29,538

sex is bad, but because it's

so good, because sex is sacred.

: 1339

00:55:29,748 --> 00:55:32,238

It's something created by

God for spouses to bond.

: 1340

00:55:32,238 --> 00:55:37,488

Now, on the biological end, and

again, science always our, our

: 1341

00:55:37,488 --> 00:55:38,748

faith is not opposed to science.

: 1342

00:55:38,748 --> 00:55:41,028

Science always affirms everything.

: 1343

00:55:41,028 --> 00:55:41,538

We believe in our

: 1344

00:55:41,778 --> 00:55:42,198

-: 2025

: 1345

00:55:42,318 --> 00:55:45,528

-: 2025

in science, we see that when people,

: 1346

00:55:45,888 --> 00:55:50,118

there's a chemical that is released when

you have sex and it's called oxytocin.

: 1347

00:55:50,118 --> 00:55:54,348

It bonds you to this person, that's why if

you've had multiple partners, actually the

: 1348

00:55:54,348 --> 00:55:59,718

first person you had sex with is actually

one of the strongest bonds because that

: 1349

00:55:59,718 --> 00:56:01,578

was, that chemical was super powerful with

: 1350

00:56:01,638 --> 00:56:02,358

-: 2025

: 1351

00:56:02,778 --> 00:56:05,448

-: 2025

that chemical is also released

: 1352

00:56:05,448 --> 00:56:06,738

when we breastfeed our babies.

: 1353

00:56:06,738 --> 00:56:09,138

It's released actually, when

you have a vaginal delivery, you

: 1354

00:56:09,138 --> 00:56:11,583

get oxytocin, and then when you

breastfeed, you're bonding yourself.

: 1355

00:56:11,583 --> 00:56:13,758

This child, I heard a stat

one time that like, it's like.

: 1356

00:56:14,853 --> 00:56:19,293

Four to seven times oxytocin greater in

women than it is in men, because women

: 1357

00:56:19,323 --> 00:56:20,883

have it when they breastfeed and stuff.

: 1358

00:56:21,333 --> 00:56:27,993

Um, so for men and women, when you are

sexually active or even just making

: 1359

00:56:27,993 --> 00:56:31,983

out, you're releasing oxytocin and

you're bonding yourself to this person.

: 1360

00:56:32,073 --> 00:56:35,553

Now, with that said, if any of you were

listening to us or watching this and

: 1361

00:56:35,553 --> 00:56:39,273

you have had sex before, and you're

like, oh my gosh, I bonded myself.

: 1362

00:56:39,513 --> 00:56:42,273

You guys, God can heal all things.

: 1363

00:56:42,288 --> 00:56:42,768

-: 2025

Absolutely.

: 1364

00:56:43,623 --> 00:56:46,503

-: 2025

grace of God can heal all things.

: 1365

00:56:46,503 --> 00:56:50,523

So when you go to confession,

you are made new, okay?

: 1366

00:56:50,643 --> 00:56:53,913

So when you go to confession and you

live in God's grace, you can be made new.

: 1367

00:56:53,913 --> 00:56:55,563

It doesn't matter what your past is.

: 1368

00:56:56,013 --> 00:57:00,573

Um, and, and like the devil wants

you to feel shame, and the Lord

: 1369

00:57:00,573 --> 00:57:03,813

wants to remove that shame and wants

you to live in a life of grace.

: 1370

00:57:04,053 --> 00:57:07,653

So that, but we don't, we

don't live together because

: 1371

00:57:07,653 --> 00:57:08,763

we're not playing at marriage.

: 1372

00:57:08,763 --> 00:57:11,853

Because the more you play at marriage, the

more you're bonding yourself to someone.

: 1373

00:57:12,798 --> 00:57:15,828

It just makes it so

much harder to discern.

: 1374

00:57:16,008 --> 00:57:18,348

And when you break up,

it's like a divorce.

: 1375

00:57:18,618 --> 00:57:22,008

I had a friend who lived with her

boyfriend for, I think they lived

: 1376

00:57:22,008 --> 00:57:23,718

together for like two, two years.

: 1377

00:57:23,808 --> 00:57:27,378

And she told me, she's like, Jackie,

when I had a conversion in my faith and

: 1378

00:57:27,378 --> 00:57:29,358

we broke up, she's like, it was like a

: 1379

00:57:29,643 --> 00:57:29,933

-: 2025

: 1380

00:57:29,938 --> 00:57:29,958

Yeah.

: 1381

00:57:30,048 --> 00:57:30,678

-: 2025

: 1382

00:57:30,918 --> 00:57:31,308

He was moving.

: 1383

00:57:31,338 --> 00:57:32,598

I mean, it was horrible.

: 1384

00:57:32,838 --> 00:57:36,558

So for any woman who's like discerning

living with their, like, first of

: 1385

00:57:36,558 --> 00:57:39,108

all, you don't need to live with

someone to recognize that you are

: 1386

00:57:39,108 --> 00:57:40,668

completely attracted and in love with

: 1387

00:57:40,788 --> 00:57:41,058

-: 2025

: 1388

00:57:41,808 --> 00:57:43,578

-: 2025

you don't need to test drive them.

: 1389

00:57:44,028 --> 00:57:47,178

I mean, what are you gonna

learn from living together?

: 1390

00:57:47,523 --> 00:57:49,518

Like, like, oh, I don't like

the way they brush their

: 1391

00:57:49,518 --> 00:57:49,788

-: 2025

: 1392

00:57:49,788 --> 00:57:50,838

Like let's be real.

: 1393

00:57:50,838 --> 00:57:54,618

Like how they do the dishes isn't gonna

make you wanna marry them less or more.

: 1394

00:57:54,618 --> 00:57:57,558

And if that is, then you

clearly aren't in love.

: 1395

00:57:58,698 --> 00:57:59,088

-: 2025

: 1396

00:57:59,088 --> 00:58:02,898

And that's clearly not your best friend

who you can like, have conversations with.

: 1397

00:58:02,898 --> 00:58:05,298

Like my husband, I, we've

had, I'm like, babe.

: 1398

00:58:06,078 --> 00:58:08,148

need to use more soap

when you clean dishes,

: 1399

00:58:10,218 --> 00:58:11,598

like ridiculous things, you know?

: 1400

00:58:11,928 --> 00:58:17,838

So your marriage is based on a

friendship and, and when I talk about

: 1401

00:58:17,838 --> 00:58:20,568

friendship, it's like a virtuous

friendship where you both have a common

: 1402

00:58:20,568 --> 00:58:22,188

goal and that common goal is heaven.

: 1403

00:58:22,668 --> 00:58:26,268

Remember, the whole purpose of

friendships and romantic relationships

: 1404

00:58:26,268 --> 00:58:29,388

of any relationship in this world

is to get each other to heaven.

: 1405

00:58:30,108 --> 00:58:31,878

my husband is my best friend.

: 1406

00:58:32,118 --> 00:58:33,978

We are running this

race together to heaven.

: 1407

00:58:34,368 --> 00:58:40,578

Um, when I am weak, he is, he's like

my rock because he is the hands and

: 1408

00:58:40,578 --> 00:58:44,568

feet of Jesus in my life and I in the

hands and feet of Jesus in his life.

: 1409

00:58:44,568 --> 00:58:47,178

And so when he is going through

a rough time or he's sad or

: 1410

00:58:47,178 --> 00:58:49,038

whatever, like I am Jesus to

: 1411

00:58:49,243 --> 00:58:49,663

-: 2025

: 1412

00:58:49,788 --> 00:58:51,648

-: 2025

the beautiful thing about marriage is.

: 1413

00:58:51,998 --> 00:58:53,318

We're not each other's savior.

: 1414

00:58:53,678 --> 00:58:58,808

We are not each other's therapists, but

are helping each other get to heaven.

: 1415

00:58:59,498 --> 00:59:02,228

so I tell people when they think

that marriage is gonna solve

: 1416

00:59:02,228 --> 00:59:04,868

all their problems, this is

probably one of the top things I

: 1417

00:59:05,043 --> 00:59:05,263

-: 2025

: 1418

00:59:06,278 --> 00:59:08,228

-: 2025

doesn't solve your problems.

: 1419

00:59:08,228 --> 00:59:10,058

It actually exposes all of them.

: 1420

00:59:10,203 --> 00:59:10,423

-: 2025

: 1421

00:59:10,538 --> 00:59:10,898

-: 2025

: 1422

00:59:10,898 --> 00:59:12,848

So some of us think when I get

married, all my problems will be

: 1423

00:59:12,848 --> 00:59:16,088

solved, my anxiety's gonna be gone,

my depression and my, my past.

: 1424

00:59:16,088 --> 00:59:18,488

Like everything, my

insecurity is gonna be gone.

: 1425

00:59:18,488 --> 00:59:18,848

: 1426

00:59:18,933 --> 00:59:19,153

-: 2025

: 1427

00:59:19,358 --> 00:59:20,408

-: 2025

: 1428

00:59:20,708 --> 00:59:23,648

The only, the Lord can satisfy

every desire of your heart.

: 1429

00:59:23,648 --> 00:59:25,058

No human being can do that.

: 1430

00:59:25,388 --> 00:59:27,908

When you get married, all

those things are gonna be

: 1431

00:59:28,393 --> 00:59:28,813

-: 2025

: 1432

00:59:28,898 --> 00:59:31,088

-: 2025

why while you're dating or engaged,

: 1433

00:59:31,088 --> 00:59:32,708

like these things need to come to light.

: 1434

00:59:32,708 --> 00:59:34,148

You have to have the tough conversations.

: 1435

00:59:34,148 --> 00:59:35,198

You have to have, talk about.

: 1436

00:59:35,568 --> 00:59:38,718

Your pornography history, you gotta

talk about your past, you gotta talk

: 1437

00:59:38,718 --> 00:59:42,828

about your expectations, you gotta

talk about maybe past sexual abuse or

: 1438

00:59:42,828 --> 00:59:44,628

stuff like this has to be talked about

: 1439

00:59:44,663 --> 00:59:44,953

-: 2025

: 1440

00:59:44,988 --> 00:59:48,168

-: 2025

massively going to affect marriage.

: 1441

00:59:48,468 --> 00:59:52,188

Um, you have to talk about what are your

expectations in the home as men and women.

: 1442

00:59:52,188 --> 00:59:53,898

Like what do you expect

your husband to do?

: 1443

00:59:53,898 --> 00:59:55,188

What does he expect you to do?

: 1444

00:59:55,518 --> 00:59:58,668

Um, like the, all these, like,

finances, children, this all has

: 1445

00:59:58,668 --> 01:00:03,558

to be discussed because it's all

gonna come to light in marriage.

: 1446

01:00:03,588 --> 01:00:05,148

It's not gonna solve your problems.

: 1447

01:00:05,628 --> 01:00:08,298

I had a friend who was like, oh, once I

get married, it's all gonna get better.

: 1448

01:00:08,298 --> 01:00:10,218

And I'm like, oh, no, no, no.

: 1449

01:00:10,368 --> 01:00:12,768

It's gonna get, not that it gets worse,

: 1450

01:00:12,948 --> 01:00:14,118

-: 2025

But like you said, it's all, it

: 1451

01:00:14,118 --> 01:00:15,828

all gets exposed, and that's true.

: 1452

01:00:16,578 --> 01:00:17,028

-: 2025

: 1453

01:00:17,178 --> 01:00:19,458

And if they are your best friend,

they're gonna walk you through

: 1454

01:00:19,593 --> 01:00:20,073

-: 2025

: 1455

01:00:20,208 --> 01:00:22,038

-: 2025

love you through it, but if they're not

: 1456

01:00:22,038 --> 01:00:23,898

your best friend, it's gonna be ugly.

: 1457

01:00:24,358 --> 01:00:24,648

-: 2025

: 1458

01:00:24,798 --> 01:00:25,608

-: 2025

gonna get ugly.

: 1459

01:00:25,618 --> 01:00:25,908

-: 2025

: 1460

01:00:26,058 --> 01:00:28,608

-: 2025

not your best friend, it's going to be.

: 1461

01:00:29,208 --> 01:00:32,208

Disastrous 'cause because it is, there

are gonna be parts of you that are

: 1462

01:00:32,208 --> 01:00:33,588

revealed that people are gonna find.

: 1463

01:00:33,678 --> 01:00:35,418

They're gonna find

disgusting and repulsive.

: 1464

01:00:35,658 --> 01:00:39,348

But if they're your best friend and

those things are revealed, they're

: 1465

01:00:39,348 --> 01:00:42,618

gonna see the beauty of that brokenness

and they're gonna share in that

: 1466

01:00:42,618 --> 01:00:44,298

wound with you and walk with you

: 1467

01:00:44,553 --> 01:00:44,643

-: 2025

: 1468

01:00:44,748 --> 01:00:46,158

-: 2025

have to heaven to Jesus.

: 1469

01:00:46,158 --> 01:00:47,778

And they're gonna help

you bring that to Jesus.

: 1470

01:00:48,213 --> 01:00:51,333

-: 2025

doing all that while you're dating

: 1471

01:00:51,333 --> 01:00:56,553

without sex and without living together

allows you to see those things clearly

: 1472

01:00:56,553 --> 01:01:01,503

in the other person and choose to love

those things in the other person versus

: 1473

01:01:01,503 --> 01:01:04,443

like you said, like the more sexually

intimate you are or you're living

: 1474

01:01:04,443 --> 01:01:07,743

together and your bonding yourself to

this person as if they were your husband.

: 1475

01:01:07,983 --> 01:01:12,513

The more your judgment is clouded

of what this other person really

: 1476

01:01:12,513 --> 01:01:16,413

is like and are you actually

compatible for marriage or not?

: 1477

01:01:16,743 --> 01:01:22,863

Um, and I think too, just to add on

is like your, this person is not your

: 1478

01:01:22,863 --> 01:01:24,603

spouse until you say vows at the altar.

: 1479

01:01:24,603 --> 01:01:27,213

So I know for a lot of people it's

like, well, I would never do this with a

: 1480

01:01:27,213 --> 01:01:31,953

boyfriend, but with a fiance, like once

you're engaged and like promised to marry

: 1481

01:01:31,953 --> 01:01:33,843

each other, then that would be okay.

: 1482

01:01:34,083 --> 01:01:39,003

But the reality is they're still not

your spouse until you're married and

: 1483

01:01:39,003 --> 01:01:40,383

have said your spouses at the altar.

: 1484

01:01:40,743 --> 01:01:41,373

Um.

: 1485

01:01:41,583 --> 01:01:42,843

-: 2025

not married till you're married.

: 1486

01:01:42,843 --> 01:01:43,473

And guess what?

: 1487

01:01:43,563 --> 01:01:45,138

There, there's still a

chance they could die.

: 1488

01:01:45,453 --> 01:01:48,693

Like I told, I thought like,

okay, I know Bobby is 99% my

: 1489

01:01:48,693 --> 01:01:49,653

husband, but what if he died?

: 1490

01:01:49,713 --> 01:01:50,313

What if I died?

: 1491

01:01:50,378 --> 01:01:50,668

-: 2025

: 1492

01:01:51,123 --> 01:01:52,713

-: 2025

you're, and I had friends who

: 1493

01:01:52,713 --> 01:01:55,863

were engaged and they, they were

sexually active and then they broke

: 1494

01:01:55,978 --> 01:01:56,268

-: 2025

: 1495

01:01:56,313 --> 01:01:57,483

-: 2025

: 1496

01:01:57,738 --> 01:01:58,158

-: 2025

: 1497

01:01:58,383 --> 01:02:02,223

-: 2025

myself I thought this was my future

: 1498

01:02:02,578 --> 01:02:02,998

-: 2025

: 1499

01:02:03,123 --> 01:02:04,143

-: 2025

intimate and now it's

: 1500

01:02:04,458 --> 01:02:04,748

-: 2025

: 1501

01:02:05,193 --> 01:02:07,023

-: 2025

are not married till you're married.

: 1502

01:02:07,473 --> 01:02:10,713

And again, the opposite of

love is use that if you are

: 1503

01:02:10,713 --> 01:02:12,633

willing to use this person.

: 1504

01:02:13,533 --> 01:02:14,103

don't really

: 1505

01:02:14,258 --> 01:02:14,678

-: 2025

: 1506

01:02:15,243 --> 01:02:17,493

-: 2025

if you are willing to lead them to

: 1507

01:02:17,493 --> 01:02:19,773

sin, and not just sin but mortal like

: 1508

01:02:20,158 --> 01:02:20,688

-: 2025

More often.

: 1509

01:02:20,793 --> 01:02:21,513

-: 2025

could be mortal.

: 1510

01:02:21,628 --> 01:02:21,848

-: 2025

: 1511

01:02:21,873 --> 01:02:22,293

-: 2025

: 1512

01:02:22,293 --> 01:02:25,593

If you know, and you're freely

doing it, like, you know, mortal

: 1513

01:02:25,593 --> 01:02:26,613

sin has to have those things.

: 1514

01:02:26,883 --> 01:02:30,153

Um, but if you are willing to lead

them to grave sin, you don't love

: 1515

01:02:30,318 --> 01:02:30,538

-: 2025

: 1516

01:02:31,353 --> 01:02:34,113

-: 2025

look at your motives and have to go deep.

: 1517

01:02:34,113 --> 01:02:38,283

And we got, so that's, anytime I

sin, I always have to ask myself

: 1518

01:02:38,283 --> 01:02:39,663

the question, why did I do that?

: 1519

01:02:39,718 --> 01:02:39,838

-: 2025

: 1520

01:02:40,293 --> 01:02:42,093

-: 2025

have to look into my deeper motives.

: 1521

01:02:42,093 --> 01:02:45,453

I have to look into my deeper brokenness

and ask myself why I did that.

: 1522

01:02:45,453 --> 01:02:46,443

And it's ugly guys.

: 1523

01:02:46,593 --> 01:02:47,643

It's ugly to find those

: 1524

01:02:47,958 --> 01:02:48,248

-: 2025

: 1525

01:02:48,483 --> 01:02:51,003

-: 2025

have to look at our deeper motives.

: 1526

01:02:51,003 --> 01:02:55,203

'cause I know, I know when we are

in love, we, man, we justify a lot.

: 1527

01:02:55,203 --> 01:02:59,583

And that's why it's so important that

when you are dating someone and you want

: 1528

01:02:59,583 --> 01:03:02,973

to love them, you have to be able to,

number one, talk about these things.

: 1529

01:03:02,973 --> 01:03:05,403

Talk about your chastity, talk

about how you're gonna lead each

: 1530

01:03:05,403 --> 01:03:07,503

other, having, and then you have

to have boundaries for yourself.

: 1531

01:03:07,713 --> 01:03:09,423

That is top, top thing.

: 1532

01:03:09,423 --> 01:03:11,193

You have to constantly be

talking about your boundaries.

: 1533

01:03:11,193 --> 01:03:12,093

Like, hey.

: 1534

01:03:12,813 --> 01:03:15,873

It's probably not appropriate or

it's probably not good for us.

: 1535

01:03:15,873 --> 01:03:17,523

If we're laying down together watching a

: 1536

01:03:17,913 --> 01:03:18,363

-: 2025

: 1537

01:03:18,393 --> 01:03:19,473

-: 2025

that's probably gonna lead

: 1538

01:03:19,473 --> 01:03:20,583

to some stuff, you know?

: 1539

01:03:20,823 --> 01:03:25,323

Um, number two, like, Hey, after 11

o'clock we should probably go home.

: 1540

01:03:25,413 --> 01:03:27,363

Like, there's just,

just certain boundaries.

: 1541

01:03:27,423 --> 01:03:27,753

-: 2025

: 1542

01:03:27,813 --> 01:03:29,193

-: 2025

you should know yourself, know

: 1543

01:03:29,193 --> 01:03:30,393

yourself, know when you're

: 1544

01:03:30,668 --> 01:03:30,958

-: 2025

: 1545

01:03:30,993 --> 01:03:31,323

Yep.

: 1546

01:03:31,323 --> 01:03:34,083

-: 2025

one is like, this is when we

: 1547

01:03:34,413 --> 01:03:34,563

-: 2025

: 1548

01:03:34,773 --> 01:03:38,043

-: 2025

is when we're most likely to mess

: 1549

01:03:38,268 --> 01:03:40,203

-: 2025

Yeah, like beyond your own side.

: 1550

01:03:40,343 --> 01:03:42,768

Be on your own side and

like help yourself, like,

: 1551

01:03:43,353 --> 01:03:43,743

-: 2025

: 1552

01:03:44,403 --> 01:03:48,483

And, and Bobby and I, we would just

have to laugh at ourselves like,

: 1553

01:03:49,053 --> 01:03:51,003

oh man, like we messed up again.

: 1554

01:03:51,393 --> 01:03:53,253

Um, goes, go to confession.

: 1555

01:03:53,253 --> 01:03:55,533

And we'd have to laugh, like

just laugh at ourselves.

: 1556

01:03:55,533 --> 01:03:57,813

Like, yeah, we're human

and we're stupid sometimes.

: 1557

01:03:57,813 --> 01:03:59,523

And like, man, we really are horny.

: 1558

01:03:59,723 --> 01:04:00,143

-: 2025

: 1559

01:04:00,183 --> 01:04:03,063

-: 2025

be honest, like, okay, we're really

: 1560

01:04:03,078 --> 01:04:04,428

-: 2025

We just really want each other.

: 1561

01:04:04,503 --> 01:04:05,163

-: 2025

: 1562

01:04:05,283 --> 01:04:05,673

Yeah.

: 1563

01:04:05,688 --> 01:04:05,808

-: 2025

: 1564

01:04:05,823 --> 01:04:06,303

-: 2025

: 1565

01:04:06,303 --> 01:04:06,993

That's a beautiful thing.

: 1566

01:04:06,993 --> 01:04:09,123

I had a priest tell me in

confession, like, Jackie.

: 1567

01:04:09,903 --> 01:04:12,903

like, if you didn't struggle

with chastity, I'd be worried.

: 1568

01:04:13,053 --> 01:04:14,823

Like, and I was like, okay, thank you.

: 1569

01:04:14,823 --> 01:04:15,933

I thought that was so beautiful.

: 1570

01:04:15,933 --> 01:04:16,503

Like the

: 1571

01:04:16,783 --> 01:04:17,713

-: 2025

That is so good.

: 1572

01:04:17,763 --> 01:04:21,243

-: 2025

desires are good and we need to,

: 1573

01:04:21,693 --> 01:04:23,553

like, we are, we are still human.

: 1574

01:04:23,553 --> 01:04:26,013

You guys, we're not perfect yet.

: 1575

01:04:26,103 --> 01:04:30,273

And we need to be able to laugh at

ourselves and be like, okay, we messed up.

: 1576

01:04:31,083 --> 01:04:31,233

to go.

: 1577

01:04:31,233 --> 01:04:34,983

Now obviously we're not laughing or

making light of sin, but to say like,

: 1578

01:04:35,343 --> 01:04:39,093

okay, we're, we, we're ridiculous

humans and we justify all these

: 1579

01:04:39,093 --> 01:04:41,043

things, but let's, let's start again.

: 1580

01:04:41,148 --> 01:04:41,388

-: 2025

: 1581

01:04:41,523 --> 01:04:42,153

-: 2025

help each other.

: 1582

01:04:42,153 --> 01:04:43,233

Let's talk about our boundaries.

: 1583

01:04:43,233 --> 01:04:44,343

How can we help each other?

: 1584

01:04:44,463 --> 01:04:45,843

Maybe we need accountability.

: 1585

01:04:45,978 --> 01:04:46,338

-: 2025

: 1586

01:04:47,193 --> 01:04:48,213

-: 2025

need accountability from a guy.

: 1587

01:04:48,213 --> 01:04:48,483

Friends.

: 1588

01:04:48,483 --> 01:04:51,543

I had a girl, my best girlfriend

who would check in on me and

: 1589

01:04:51,543 --> 01:04:52,653

like, how are you doing with Bobby

: 1590

01:04:52,698 --> 01:04:52,938

-: 2025

: 1591

01:04:52,953 --> 01:04:53,463

-: 2025

: 1592

01:04:53,493 --> 01:04:54,303

How are you guys doing?

: 1593

01:04:54,303 --> 01:04:57,033

And I'm like, uh, so it was good.

: 1594

01:04:57,033 --> 01:04:58,413

It was good for her to check in on

: 1595

01:04:58,608 --> 01:04:59,058

-: 2025

: 1596

01:04:59,403 --> 01:05:00,063

-: 2025

: 1597

01:05:00,363 --> 01:05:00,853

-: 2025

: 1598

01:05:01,083 --> 01:05:04,143

-: 2025

know I, I know my motives and

: 1599

01:05:04,143 --> 01:05:05,133

I'm like, they're not always

: 1600

01:05:05,363 --> 01:05:05,583

-: 2025

: 1601

01:05:05,733 --> 01:05:06,693

-: 2025

They're sometimes.

: 1602

01:05:07,068 --> 01:05:07,428

Yeah.

: 1603

01:05:07,428 --> 01:05:09,618

Like, I wanna, I wanna use

someone for my pleasure too.

: 1604

01:05:09,978 --> 01:05:12,828

So, uh, it's good to have

people in your life who want

: 1605

01:05:12,828 --> 01:05:14,418

you to be holy and it's good.

: 1606

01:05:14,778 --> 01:05:15,773

They want you to go to

: 1607

01:05:15,918 --> 01:05:16,338

-: 2025

: 1608

01:05:16,338 --> 01:05:18,978

And that's why good and holy

friendships are so important.

: 1609

01:05:18,978 --> 01:05:19,248

And

: 1610

01:05:19,493 --> 01:05:19,913

-: 2025

: 1611

01:05:20,178 --> 01:05:20,628

-: 2025

to that too.

: 1612

01:05:20,628 --> 01:05:23,688

I remember in college my best

friend, we shared a wall.

: 1613

01:05:23,718 --> 01:05:24,708

We lived in the same house.

: 1614

01:05:24,708 --> 01:05:27,078

And I told her like when Trey's over like.

: 1615

01:05:27,693 --> 01:05:28,713

In the nicest way possible.

: 1616

01:05:28,713 --> 01:05:30,243

I need you to kind of be like my dad.

: 1617

01:05:30,243 --> 01:05:34,113

Like, I need you to kind of be like,

um, keep the door open, or, um,

: 1618

01:05:34,113 --> 01:05:37,953

nobody's going in the room or like,

um, you know, we're all going to

: 1619

01:05:37,953 --> 01:05:40,503

bed, so Trey, you should go home now.

: 1620

01:05:40,893 --> 01:05:41,313

You know?

: 1621

01:05:41,313 --> 01:05:44,403

And I like, I give you full permission,

you know, if we were ever struggling,

: 1622

01:05:44,403 --> 01:05:46,563

I'd be like, I give you full

permission to be like, Hey, like,

: 1623

01:05:46,743 --> 01:05:48,573

check in on me, ask me how I'm doing.

: 1624

01:05:48,573 --> 01:05:52,713

Or if we're like, gonna go into my room,

just be like, Hey, like, what y'all doing?

: 1625

01:05:52,713 --> 01:05:54,543

You know, like, let's hang out downstairs.

: 1626

01:05:55,053 --> 01:05:55,713

Um,

: 1627

01:05:56,193 --> 01:05:57,243

-: 2025

That's so good.

: 1628

01:05:57,243 --> 01:05:58,293

That's so healthy

: 1629

01:05:58,323 --> 01:05:58,473

-: 2025

: 1630

01:05:58,503 --> 01:06:00,603

-: 2025

that you gave her permission.

: 1631

01:06:01,053 --> 01:06:01,818

Check in on me,

: 1632

01:06:01,923 --> 01:06:02,253

-: 2025

: 1633

01:06:02,283 --> 01:06:03,063

-: 2025

be like, my dad.

: 1634

01:06:03,243 --> 01:06:03,813

-: 2025

: 1635

01:06:04,233 --> 01:06:07,773

-: 2025

for me because I know I can be weak.

: 1636

01:06:07,833 --> 01:06:11,643

Yeah, like that's such a healthy

thing to give permission to your

: 1637

01:06:11,798 --> 01:06:12,218

-: 2025

: 1638

01:06:12,363 --> 01:06:14,073

-: 2025

please, please tell me when I'm

: 1639

01:06:14,073 --> 01:06:15,513

being an idiot in a relationship.

: 1640

01:06:15,513 --> 01:06:18,153

Please tell me when I'm

dating a guy who you don't

: 1641

01:06:18,358 --> 01:06:18,778

-: 2025

: 1642

01:06:18,963 --> 01:06:22,203

-: 2025

tell me this, when I am am so blinded

: 1643

01:06:22,203 --> 01:06:24,483

by my own infatuation, can you please be

: 1644

01:06:24,558 --> 01:06:24,848

-: 2025

: 1645

01:06:25,353 --> 01:06:27,363

-: 2025

be my rational person in my life?

: 1646

01:06:29,133 --> 01:06:32,283

-: 2025

question to end on this conversation would

: 1647

01:06:32,283 --> 01:06:36,273

just be, you know, we've talked about

just the beauty of theology of the body.

: 1648

01:06:36,543 --> 01:06:40,953

Um, I think especially this word chastity

can be heavy for a lot of people and

: 1649

01:06:40,953 --> 01:06:43,653

can, you know, kind of make people

cringe sometimes, depending on how

: 1650

01:06:43,653 --> 01:06:47,553

they've been taught about it and how

they've been raised to view chastity.

: 1651

01:06:47,553 --> 01:06:51,873

Um, and it can sometimes feel intimidating

and to some people today, you know,

: 1652

01:06:51,873 --> 01:06:55,383

even outdated and just be like, that's

something that people used to do, but

: 1653

01:06:55,383 --> 01:06:57,423

that's not how things run anymore.

: 1654

01:06:57,663 --> 01:07:02,373

Um, how can you just, how can we

end on a note that shows truly the

: 1655

01:07:02,373 --> 01:07:05,673

true meaning of chastity and how

theology of the body reframes it to

: 1656

01:07:05,673 --> 01:07:08,073

be beautiful and freeing and good.

: 1657

01:07:09,168 --> 01:07:09,408

-: 2025

: 1658

01:07:09,408 --> 01:07:14,388

Chastity is integration

of our body and soul.

: 1659

01:07:15,468 --> 01:07:18,198

sin is a disintegration of body and soul.

: 1660

01:07:18,228 --> 01:07:21,708

We all know that feeling when

our soul is like, don't do it.

: 1661

01:07:21,858 --> 01:07:22,728

You know, you shouldn't do it.

: 1662

01:07:22,728 --> 01:07:25,218

And your body's like, but I

wanna do it, but I wanna do it.

: 1663

01:07:25,218 --> 01:07:25,458

Right?

: 1664

01:07:25,458 --> 01:07:28,248

Like even with gossip, like let's

say gossip, you're like, I shouldn't

: 1665

01:07:28,248 --> 01:07:29,148

be talking about this person.

: 1666

01:07:29,148 --> 01:07:30,288

You're like, oh, but it

feels so good to talk

: 1667

01:07:30,293 --> 01:07:30,573

-: 2025

: 1668

01:07:30,708 --> 01:07:32,958

-: 2025

know that feeling like don't do it.

: 1669

01:07:33,168 --> 01:07:36,648

So is an integration of where like.

: 1670

01:07:37,683 --> 01:07:40,683

I know what is good and my

body's gonna do the same thing.

: 1671

01:07:41,703 --> 01:07:46,173

I don't want to use that person

and my body's gonna follow.

: 1672

01:07:46,233 --> 01:07:50,943

So sin is that disintegration of body

and soul and chassis is an integration.

: 1673

01:07:51,243 --> 01:07:54,303

Chassis is also a, a renewal of the mind.

: 1674

01:07:54,333 --> 01:07:56,643

It's a, it's a way of looking

at people differently.

: 1675

01:07:56,853 --> 01:08:02,673

That when I look at men, first goal is

to see them as my brothers in Christ.

: 1676

01:08:03,513 --> 01:08:07,983

And I look at my, so like, I am

married just because I'm married

: 1677

01:08:07,983 --> 01:08:11,103

doesn't mean that there aren't

attractive men in my life, right?

: 1678

01:08:11,313 --> 01:08:13,443

Like, just because you get

married, it doesn't mean like all

: 1679

01:08:13,473 --> 01:08:15,033

-: 2025

People all of a sudden are ugly.

: 1680

01:08:15,243 --> 01:08:18,332

-: 2025

even to look at my gorgeous male

: 1681

01:08:18,783 --> 01:08:19,202

-: 2025

: 1682

01:08:19,353 --> 01:08:22,832

-: 2025

and say, these are my brothers in Christ

: 1683

01:08:22,832 --> 01:08:25,113

and I love them and I want to honor them.

: 1684

01:08:25,413 --> 01:08:31,053

Like actually in Romans 12, um, it's

like verses nine and 10, it says like,

: 1685

01:08:31,292 --> 01:08:35,702

love with brotherly affection and

outdo one another in showing honor.

: 1686

01:08:36,243 --> 01:08:38,702

I'm like, how can I honor my brothers?

: 1687

01:08:39,332 --> 01:08:40,202

How can I love them?

: 1688

01:08:40,202 --> 01:08:44,823

And so even when you date somebody, I

want you to think this is, this helped me.

: 1689

01:08:45,603 --> 01:08:47,823

Every person you date is somebody else's

: 1690

01:08:48,087 --> 01:08:48,508

-: 2025

: 1691

01:08:49,712 --> 01:08:52,952

-: 2025

kept me in check I was like, oh,

: 1692

01:08:52,952 --> 01:08:55,292

shoot, okay, this person is not mine.

: 1693

01:08:55,538 --> 01:08:55,957

-: 2025

: 1694

01:08:56,193 --> 01:08:58,803

-: 2025

could be someone else's spouse, or in

: 1695

01:08:58,803 --> 01:09:00,423

my case, one of them became a priest.

: 1696

01:09:01,658 --> 01:09:02,398

-: 2025

That's so funny.

: 1697

01:09:03,093 --> 01:09:04,743

-: 2025

they're, he's all of your spouse.

: 1698

01:09:04,803 --> 01:09:06,423

Like he's, he's married to the church.

: 1699

01:09:06,452 --> 01:09:06,723

Okay.

: 1700

01:09:07,023 --> 01:09:09,212

And then I had a friend who, or

I had a boyfriend who actually

: 1701

01:09:09,212 --> 01:09:10,233

married one of my friends,

: 1702

01:09:11,013 --> 01:09:11,343

-: 2025

: 1703

01:09:11,403 --> 01:09:14,883

-: 2025

proud of what I did with this guy?

: 1704

01:09:14,883 --> 01:09:15,513

Am I proud?

: 1705

01:09:15,513 --> 01:09:16,983

Like, could I tell his future wife?

: 1706

01:09:16,983 --> 01:09:20,193

Like, I honored your

husband our relationship.

: 1707

01:09:20,283 --> 01:09:20,823

Oh my gosh.

: 1708

01:09:20,823 --> 01:09:22,113

So chastity

: 1709

01:09:22,398 --> 01:09:22,518

-: 2025

: 1710

01:09:23,087 --> 01:09:26,148

-: 2025

it's showing, looking at one another

: 1711

01:09:26,358 --> 01:09:28,098

as your brother and sister in Christ.

: 1712

01:09:28,457 --> 01:09:31,938

And it's showing honor for the

person's body, heart, mind, and soul.

: 1713

01:09:31,938 --> 01:09:35,358

So if that's gonna keep you in check

and that's your thing, write it down.

: 1714

01:09:35,658 --> 01:09:37,997

Every person I date is

somebody else's future spouse.

: 1715

01:09:38,058 --> 01:09:39,167

They're not mine till they're mine.

: 1716

01:09:39,888 --> 01:09:42,858

I want to show honor and love.

: 1717

01:09:42,917 --> 01:09:46,368

So chassis is not just a bunch of don't

do this, don't do this, don't do this.

: 1718

01:09:46,368 --> 01:09:51,408

No chassis is a renewal of your mind where

you see every person as a child of God

: 1719

01:09:52,038 --> 01:09:55,428

someone that you should honor in their

body, their heart, their soul, their

: 1720

01:09:55,428 --> 01:09:57,618

mind, and their goal is to get them to

: 1721

01:09:57,827 --> 01:09:58,248

-: 2025

: 1722

01:09:58,458 --> 01:10:00,588

-: 2025

get as much pleasure as you can.

: 1723

01:10:00,588 --> 01:10:02,448

So that's what being Christian is about.

: 1724

01:10:02,463 --> 01:10:02,883

-: 2025

: 1725

01:10:03,077 --> 01:10:05,148

-: 2025

and falling in love with Jesus is

: 1726

01:10:05,148 --> 01:10:07,488

about a, our, we are new creations.

: 1727

01:10:07,608 --> 01:10:09,918

Our minds have been renewed,

and we are seeing the world

: 1728

01:10:09,918 --> 01:10:11,268

differently than the world sees it.

: 1729

01:10:11,658 --> 01:10:14,808

We are seeing with a lens

of the kingdom of God.

: 1730

01:10:15,288 --> 01:10:18,618

And I have to tell myself this like

all the time, like I have to remind

: 1731

01:10:18,618 --> 01:10:21,738

myself like, Jackie, you need to have

a kingdom lens and not an earthly lens.

: 1732

01:10:22,473 --> 01:10:24,753

you have to have the perspective

of the kingdom of God.

: 1733

01:10:24,993 --> 01:10:27,813

And so when you look at that, when

you look at life with a kingdom

: 1734

01:10:27,813 --> 01:10:31,563

perspective, you're seeing everything

differently than the world sees.

: 1735

01:10:31,593 --> 01:10:35,313

Because the world, this is very

Freudian, this is, this is,

: 1736

01:10:35,313 --> 01:10:39,393

this was Sigmund Freud was like,

maximize pleasure, minimize pain.

: 1737

01:10:39,573 --> 01:10:39,933

-: 2025

: 1738

01:10:40,113 --> 01:10:41,493

-: 2025

But that's not the kingdom.

: 1739

01:10:41,493 --> 01:10:45,903

Like the, the way that Jesus taught

us is that real love is going to hurt.

: 1740

01:10:45,903 --> 01:10:49,443

It's going to involve sacrifice,

you're gonna have to die.

: 1741

01:10:49,443 --> 01:10:50,553

If you wanna be a disciple.

: 1742

01:10:50,553 --> 01:10:51,843

You have to take up your cross.

: 1743

01:10:52,023 --> 01:10:53,403

You have to learn to die to yourself.

: 1744

01:10:53,553 --> 01:10:56,793

So if you are struggling with chastity,

whether that is pornography, whether it,

: 1745

01:10:56,793 --> 01:10:59,883

whether it's relationships or hooking

up, one of the best things you can do

: 1746

01:11:00,063 --> 01:11:07,263

is fast how to deny your body food is,

is very closely related with sexual

: 1747

01:11:07,263 --> 01:11:09,393

purity because if you can deny yourself.

: 1748

01:11:09,903 --> 01:11:13,893

In one way, your body, and

you can learn how to fast.

: 1749

01:11:14,133 --> 01:11:19,233

Um, one, one easy way is like, fast from

breakfast to dinner, no snacks, just water

: 1750

01:11:19,503 --> 01:11:24,243

fast from breakfast to dinner and maybe

offer it up for someone in your life.

: 1751

01:11:24,243 --> 01:11:26,283

But that's just a very easy thing to do.

: 1752

01:11:26,973 --> 01:11:30,273

that practice denying yourself so

that when it comes to your sexual

: 1753

01:11:30,273 --> 01:11:34,893

interactions with people, can have

that self-control in that same way.

: 1754

01:11:34,893 --> 01:11:35,343

Like you're like,

: 1755

01:11:35,483 --> 01:11:35,773

-: 2025

: 1756

01:11:36,003 --> 01:11:36,573

-: 2025

: 1757

01:11:36,688 --> 01:11:39,423

I, I am not, and this is

also what chassis is too.

: 1758

01:11:39,723 --> 01:11:42,153

Chassis is not being a slave

to your desires, but having

: 1759

01:11:42,153 --> 01:11:43,323

mastery over your desires.

: 1760

01:11:43,323 --> 01:11:47,943

And this takes a lifetime, but we are

not being ruled by our own desires.

: 1761

01:11:48,033 --> 01:11:51,783

We are masters of our desires,

and that comes from God's grace.

: 1762

01:11:51,783 --> 01:11:53,043

So ask for God's grace.

: 1763

01:11:53,043 --> 01:11:53,733

That's all we need.

: 1764

01:11:53,733 --> 01:11:55,413

So I always am asking for grace.

: 1765

01:11:55,413 --> 01:11:57,603

Like, God, I need your grace of humility.

: 1766

01:11:57,723 --> 01:12:00,153

I need your grace of purity,

of heart, mind, body, and soul.

: 1767

01:12:00,153 --> 01:12:03,843

I need your grace of patience,

love, peace, like all those grace.

: 1768

01:12:03,843 --> 01:12:05,073

God, I need your grace.

: 1769

01:12:05,373 --> 01:12:07,503

I can do nothing apart from you, Lord.

: 1770

01:12:07,998 --> 01:12:09,738

Everything is because of your grace.

: 1771

01:12:09,798 --> 01:12:13,488

So just to end with that, like

chassis is not a bunch of nos.

: 1772

01:12:13,548 --> 01:12:18,018

It's actually a renewal of your mind

and how you see people and see the world

: 1773

01:12:18,408 --> 01:12:22,338

and that you remember that when you are

a Christian, when you have fallen in

: 1774

01:12:22,338 --> 01:12:24,318

love with Jesus, you are a new creation.

: 1775

01:12:24,318 --> 01:12:26,327

It says this in scripture, the

old things have passed away.

: 1776

01:12:26,327 --> 01:12:28,998

New things have come in

second Corinthians five 17.

: 1777

01:12:28,998 --> 01:12:30,138

Like you are a new creation.

: 1778

01:12:30,888 --> 01:12:31,788

we need to live like it.

: 1779

01:12:31,908 --> 01:12:34,548

And we need to ask for God, for his

grace, for all the ways that we are

: 1780

01:12:34,548 --> 01:12:36,798

evil, the ways that we wanna use people.

: 1781

01:12:37,158 --> 01:12:39,918

And I just wanna let you know

like it's a lifelong task.

: 1782

01:12:40,008 --> 01:12:41,988

Don't beat yourself up

when you keep falling.

: 1783

01:12:41,988 --> 01:12:43,188

Keep going to confession.

: 1784

01:12:43,458 --> 01:12:47,327

Keep receiving the graces, um,

from the sacraments and just always

: 1785

01:12:47,327 --> 01:12:49,518

every day ask for God's grace.

: 1786

01:12:49,548 --> 01:12:50,298

'cause you guys were human.

: 1787

01:12:50,298 --> 01:12:50,928

We're not perfect.

: 1788

01:12:50,928 --> 01:12:51,588

We're gonna mess up.

: 1789

01:12:51,588 --> 01:12:52,728

Just keep getting back up.

: 1790

01:12:53,088 --> 01:12:53,448

-: 2025

: 1791

01:12:53,508 --> 01:12:54,108

That was so good.

: 1792

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Jackie.

: 1793

01:12:54,558 --> 01:12:58,728

Thank you for all your encouragement and

your wisdom and just being so relatable.

: 1794

01:12:58,728 --> 01:13:02,418

You know, I think this is just such

a fruitful conversation on a subject

: 1795

01:13:02,418 --> 01:13:06,198

that can be sensitive and, and hard

for people to talk about and to accept.

: 1796

01:13:06,198 --> 01:13:10,338

So, um, thanks just for sharing that

message with love, uh, and compassion.

: 1797

01:13:10,398 --> 01:13:15,348

Um, where can people learn more about you,

hear more from you, get in touch with you?

: 1798

01:13:16,533 --> 01:13:19,143

-: 2025

you can, um, go to Jackie and bobby.com.

: 1799

01:13:19,143 --> 01:13:20,613

We have our podcast up there.

: 1800

01:13:20,613 --> 01:13:22,833

So I do a memorized scripture

podcast where you, where you

: 1801

01:13:22,833 --> 01:13:24,033

memorize like a scripture week.

: 1802

01:13:24,393 --> 01:13:26,913

Bobby and I have a podcast

called Conversations with Jackie

: 1803

01:13:26,913 --> 01:13:28,983

and Bobby, where we interview

people about their testimonies.

: 1804

01:13:29,702 --> 01:13:32,373

then I'm on Instagram

as at Jackie Francois.

: 1805

01:13:32,373 --> 01:13:34,113

Francois Looks like Franco is.

: 1806

01:13:34,293 --> 01:13:36,843

Um, and I, a lot of times I'll talk

about relationships or have clips

: 1807

01:13:36,843 --> 01:13:41,403

from the podcast and yeah, I'm

just passionate, like I, I know.

: 1808

01:13:42,153 --> 01:13:44,223

What it's like to have

a beautiful marriage.

: 1809

01:13:44,223 --> 01:13:45,452

And I, and you do too.

: 1810

01:13:45,452 --> 01:13:48,513

Like, and we want, when you have

something so beautiful, you want people

: 1811

01:13:48,513 --> 01:13:50,043

to be able to have that for themselves.

: 1812

01:13:50,493 --> 01:13:50,733

Right.

: 1813

01:13:50,733 --> 01:13:51,663

And you want people to share in it.

: 1814

01:13:51,663 --> 01:13:56,193

And I also know what it's like to fall in

love with Jesus and wa like, have his love

: 1815

01:13:56,193 --> 01:13:57,843

in my life and I want that for everybody.

: 1816

01:13:57,843 --> 01:13:58,923

So, yeah.

: 1817

01:13:59,013 --> 01:14:03,393

Um, I just try as often as can through to

evangelize through Instagram or whatever

: 1818

01:14:03,393 --> 01:14:08,373

way we can because we want people to know

how loved they are and how good God is.

: 1819

01:14:08,373 --> 01:14:09,903

And God has amazing plans for them.

: 1820

01:14:10,443 --> 01:14:10,683

-: 2025

absolutely.

: 1821

01:14:10,683 --> 01:14:12,283

Thank you for sharing

your gifts with all of us.

: 1822

01:14:13,683 --> 01:14:13,923

-: 2025

: 1823

01:14:13,923 --> 01:14:15,213

Thanks so much for having me on.

More Episodes

58. 58: All Things Relationships, Love, Chastity, Theology of the Body and more with Jackie Francois Angel