In this Book Blueprint episode, I welcome Bob Martin, a former mob lawyer turned mindfulness teacher and author. Bob shares his origin story of becoming a mob lawyer after hitting the Gambino family's southern branch with a 72-million-dollar racketeering case while working for Janet Reno in Miami.
Johnny from the Gambino family walked into his office and offered to send clients since Bob beat their lawyers, teaching him that integrity means doing what you say or saying you won't. Their arrangement worked for years until Johnny's son faced serious charges and Bob refused illegal actions, prompting him to move to North Carolina, where they parted as friends.
Bob's publishing history includes a self-published first novel where consultants took advantage of him, then two books accepted by the hybrid publisher Innovative Inc. Now querying agents for his historical fiction, he asks whether mentioning hybrid publishing hurts his chances.
Bob's first question addresses a developmental challenge in his sweeping historical drama covering 140 years and three continents about a Hungarian man born in 1898 who came to America pursuing the American dream through popcorn businesses. The antagonist is his grandmother, Julia, who does terrible things because her traumatic past hardened her heart after being married off at 15, having a bastard child, and later projecting shame onto her daughter's illegitimate son.
Beta readers nearly put the book down when Bob broke from Martin's engaging story to jump to 1960s New Jersey for Julia's entire backstory, creating too big a consciousness break.
I recommend weaving small pieces of grandmother's backstory throughout Martin's story rather than one large dump, or putting her backstory in a three to four-page prologue. I reference All the Water in the World as an example and suggest the Fiction Writers Toolkit podcast and YouTuber Alyssa Matesic for fiction writing guidance.
Finally, Bob received an offer from a Hong Kong publisher for his East-West religious book including an advance, asking if he could mention this to agents already queried for the historical fiction. I recommend having a literary lawyer review the contract.
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Transcripts
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Hey friends and future authors, this is Lynn Elikqitie-Smargis back for another episode of Publishing for Professionals. I hope you guys are having a great summer, and I would love to thank you for listening to today's episode. Our episode today is a "book blueprint" episode, so I'm super excited to have my guest on today to flip the script and ask me questions about writing and publishing. But before we jump into today's show, I want to give a big welcome back to my returning listeners. Thanks for joining me today.
And a big welcome to my new listeners. Please make sure that you like and subscribe and leave a review for Publishing for Professionals on your favorite podcast player. All right, my friends, so today my guest is Bob Martin. Bob Martin's life has never followed a straight line. He is a one-time mob lawyer in Miami turned mindfulness teacher as a professor of wellness.
Bob has walked a path that few would imagine. His journey from the courtroom to the quiet depth of a meditation hall infuses his writing with grit and grace. As an author, Bob weaves together history, spirituality, and lived experience to explore great human questions that we are constantly thinking about in our heads. So Bob is moving along the path of self-publishing and is here with us today to ask questions about hybrid publishing and developing his book content. Bob,
thank you so much for joining us today. I can't wait to dive into your publishing journey.
Bob Martin:
Well, Lynn, thanks. So happy to be here and thanks for having me.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
So I have to ask you really quick before we jump into the publishing part: I don't think I've ever had a guest on that was a mob lawyer. Tell me some really crazy experience or something that happened that was like, "My gosh," when you were a mob lawyer.
Bob Martin:
So I guess one of the questions that comes to people's minds the most is, "How does one become a mob lawyer?" I started out working for Janet Reno in the DA's office of Miami-Dade County during the "cocaine cowboy" days. Those are the days of Scarface—the movie Scarface—and the Mariel boatlift and all that stuff.
And I rose up in the office and I was heading up the Economic Crimes Division, and we used a racketeering civil case to hit the mob up for 72 million bucks. And I left the office shortly after that and opened up a small little office down the road from the courtroom, and in walks Johnny—I won't tell you his last name, but I will say that it was the southern branch of the Gambino family—and
Bob Martin:
He walks right past my secretary, sits down in front of me, and we just sat and kind of looked at each other for a while. I knew who he was, of course, and he knew who I was. And finally, he said, "You know, you hit us up for a lot of money." And I said, "Yes, sir." And he said, "We've got some pretty good lawyers and you beat them. We want to send you some clients."
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Wow
Bob Martin:
So I said, "Okay." But you know, then the next question everybody says is, "Well, weren't you scared?" or "Didn't you have some concerns about it?" and the like. And what I have to say is that these guys are good for their word. Their word is their bond because, you know, think about it: they can't really go to court to sue people over broken agreements. They have other methods of dealing with that.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
That might involve or may not involve concrete shoes.
Bob Martin:
Correct. So we needed to sit down and basically, Johnny—he taught me the meaning of integrity, believe it or not, from a mob lawyer. He says integrity is doing what you say you're going to do or saying that you're not going to do it.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Yes.
Bob Martin:
"So as long as you're straight with me and I'm straight with you." I said, "Johnny, I'm not going to do anything illegal. I'm not going to do anything unethical." And I said, "That's in your best interest because you want a lawyer who is trusted by the courts, whose word is good, is gold in the courtroom. So I'm never going to tarnish my reputation. Those are the terms." And he said, "I can live with that." And we lived with that for many, many years until
Johnny's son was unfortunately arrested with a 15-year mandatory felony. And he came and he said, "Bob, you will do these things." And I said, "I won't do those things." He goes, "I really hope that you'll reconsider your decision." So I came to him a couple of weeks later and I said, "Johnny, I'm intending to move to North Carolina."
Johnny's son was unfortunately arrested with a 15-year mandatory felony. And he came and he said, Bob, you will do these things. And I said, I won't do those things. He goes, I really hope that you'll reconsider your decision. So I came to him a couple of weeks later and I said, Johnny, I'm intending to move to North Carolina.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Hahaha
Bob Martin:
And he said, "Well, Bob, sometimes a man just has to move on. This way we can part friends." And we shook on it and I moved away and never heard from them again. Like I say, they are generally good for their word as long as you're straight with them and there's nothing to worry about. It's the backstabbing and not being straight—that stuff gets you into trouble.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Yeah, well, coming from a big Italian family, I know that just within Italian circles, being good on your word is huge. Like if you break trust with somebody and you're Italian, yeah, you might as well not even be; you're just dead to them. So I totally understand that from that perspective. That's so super interesting. Okay, so that was just fascinating. I love that story, Bob. Thank you for sharing that. Even if that has nothing to do with book publishing, it's still an interesting story.
Bob Martin:
Well, it did. Some of these stories did wind up—yeah, some of these stories did wind up in my first novel.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Very cool. We're definitely going to talk about that at the end. So, but now let's flip the script and you get to ask me questions about writing and publishing. So what is your first question that you have, Bob, about writing and publishing?
Bob Martin:
Hungarian man who was born in:
Came to America through Ellis Island, started a business with popcorn in amusement parks and carnivals. Eventually, that was his road or his dream of reaching the American dream. And it is the archetypical hero's narrative arc. The hero starts in his home environment.
And then something happens which thrusts him out of it and he goes on a series of adventures and at some point the adversary wins and he's devastated, and then he has to come back and, you know, there's another situation. Generally, if it's a tragedy or a comedy depending, he either loses or wins at the end of the book. And he always has a mentor and he always has a cheerleader or a sidekick.
like Sancho Panza in Man of La Mancha. And there's always a mentor and a sidekick and an adversary. I have not been creative in varying the formula. This is the typical hero's journey. So in this particular story, the adversary winds up being his grandmother.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Wow, that's not a nice grandma.
Bob Martin:
That's not a nice grandma. And so that is my problem. Now I can explain why grandma is so mean and nasty. You know, in a capsule, she was 15 years old, Hungarian royalty, married off to an Italian count at 15 years of age. It was not a loving relationship; she was basically ignored and grew up on the Antinori Tuscan estate, which was more like a prison to her. She didn't live in love... And then all of a sudden this tall, dark, and handsome Siciliano comes through and they have this brief affair, and she winds up having a bastard kid. The kid and she are then kind of outcast within the home. So she suffers this indignity over years as her heart begins to harden. But then the child that she actually had—the legitimate daughter she had—
is visiting the sister in Hungary often and meets a commoner, a watchmaker, and has an affair with him and has an illegitimate child. So now her own shame and her own suffering are now projected out onto her daughter, and she winds up hating the product: the bastard boy who is the hero of the story. Got it. Okay? So I...
created a situation where we have enough of an explanation as to why she has interfered with his dream and he doesn't know this. He gets arrested in Italy when he's 17. One of his stores gets bombed. Another store gets burnt to the ground and he has no idea it's her until she dies 70, 80 years later and they find the material and the stuff in the trunk which gives them the evidence, etc. Okay? Okay. So.
Here is my problem developmentally. Somewhere along the line, I have to explain why Julia is so mean, why her heart is so hard. And the way that I did it initially was I started with Martin's, well, the disowning of her daughter and the birth of the hero. And then I did a little bit of his early life.
Bob Martin:
(:
and we're talking 1898, 1905, 1910, then all of a sudden I shifted, poof, in time to 1960s New Jersey, where Julia is now an older woman and she gets a letter from Tuscany and then I give the whole backstory in like chapter four. Okay. And then I go back to Martin's story. And all of my better readers,
All the people that have read it so far said that I almost put the book down. As I was so engrossed and I was so engaged in Martin's story that when it went off on this whole backstory and everything, first of all, I shook my head and said, how did we jump that many years? And then I got this whole other story of somebody and I said, who is this book about? And I almost put the book down.
And so nobody liked that. So now I'm trying to figure out how can I do this? Can I take little pieces of her backstory and try to weave it in, you know, throughout the book where, but I really, my writer's heart wants me to have a big reveal when they open the trunk and he discovers this stuff. So I'm just, I'm just
(:
So what was the part that the beta readers almost put down the book is because they didn't they thought that like there was too much of the grandmother's story in the story.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Bob Martin:
It was too big a jump, and they liked the progression of Martin's story so much, they didn't like it when I broke away. I got you. It was a break in their consciousness. They were into the story and they wanted to know more about it. Now all of a sudden, for one chapter, I break into something completely different, and they just felt...
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
(:
I understand what you're saying. So one of the things you could do—and there's a book that you can read that exemplifies this really well, and it's called "Water Water Water Everywhere," I think is what it's called.
Oh, sorry, no, it's called "All the Water in the World." It's a fiction book and it's an apocalyptic book. But even if you don't like apocalyptic, she writes in this way. One of the things you can do instead of just jumping into her grandmother's story is keep telling his story, but then interject little pieces of the grandmother's backstory along the way as you're continuing to tell his story. That way the reader's still on track with his story,
but they're getting the little bits and pieces and information as they need it, right? So they don't have to have grandmother's whole story. They just need the parts of her story that are relevant so they understand what he's going through and what's happening. Does that make sense?
Bob Martin:
(:
It does make sense, although the doing of it is...
I would say it is so hard that it's almost over my pay grade. To weave it in like that is just—every time I try to weave a little piece of it in, I think, "This would be a good place to put that piece in," but the piece just doesn't feel right standing alone outside of the context of her story. And I'm just having a heck of a time trying to figure it out.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
(:
Yeah, and that could be something we could talk about like with book coaching or whatever. That's something I typically help people with. But yeah, but I say weaving, finding a way to weave bits of her story in as you go along. Or the other thing I just thought of too, you could do is like start with the backstory of the grandmother having the baby and something like that, and then jump into his story. So you could do that too. So there's a few different options because you said it's historical fiction, correct?
Bob Martin:
(:
Right, right.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Okay, so you don't have to worry about, it's not like a real memoir. So you don't have to worry a lot about like exactly how true something is, except for the fact that like it has to take the reader on a journey. So you can't keep switching up. But there's a couple different ways you can do that. Another website, actually there is a podcast that's out and it's called Fiction Writers Toolkit. So I would definitely recommend that you check out that podcast, because that's also gonna have some ideas for you.
And then there's another, there's a YouTuber, her name is Alyssa Matessik. And I can also send you these after the episode. She has really great ideas for fiction writers as well. Because fiction is not specifically my specialty, even though I write it for myself personally. But those are the two things I would, I would recommend for that.
Bob Martin:
Do you—you know, I was playing around with the idea, 'cause you know, it's funny, I was at the end, I have something which is almost like an epilogue. And I was thinking, you don't really have an epilogue without a prologue. And I was thinking, maybe—do you think that I could fit her story in as a prologue? And so you get the whole thing as a prologue where...
If I'm not mistaken, in a prologue, you can really tell, not show. I mean, tell, not show. You can really just tell the story without having to show so much. Just tell the story—her backstory—and then, boom, go into the guy's birth.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
When you said prologue, that was the first thing I thought of. You could put the grandma's story in the prologue, right? As long as it's not—like, you don't want to get a 10-page prologue, right? But if you could get her story in like three or four pages, that would definitely be an option for you. Yeah, that would totally make sense.
Bob Martin:
Awesome, I think I could do it in three or four pages. I really think I could.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
We're going to take a quick break right here. We come back. Bob's got some more questions for me that I'm going to answer for him on this book blueprint episode.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
We're back with the book blueprint episode and Bob Martin who is an author who asked me a question about his historical fiction book. So Bob, what other questions do you have for me today?
Bob Martin:
, which I tried to publish in:
That was my first shot at it and I didn't know anything about the publishing industry at all, and the sharks just ate me alive. The consultants came in and said, "Then you need this, you need that." And so finally I wound up self-publishing it, and I actually self-printed it. I printed a few thousand copies and sold it on the internet. And then of course that kind of died down.
That was my first shot at it and I didn't know anything about the publishing industry at all and the sharks just ate me alive. the consultants came in and then you need this, you need that. And so finally I wound up self-publishing it and I actually self-printed it. I printed a few thousand copies and sold it on the internet. And then of course that kind of died down.
Then I wrote my second book and my second book is not fiction. It's an interfaith devotional, I would say, between Eastern and Western religion. And through a very strange set of circumstances, I actually got referral to a publisher, Innovative Inc., which is a subsidiary of Kendall Hunt, which is the largest textbook.
publisher in the country and because I teach on a college campus I came to know the textbook people and they said we had this niche company, this boutique company and they would be interested in publishing a book. Turned out that it was a hybrid company and for a small fee and it certainly was not expensive at all, they did everything for me. And it was wonderful. They did the book design, the title design, the internal graphics.
They did a wonderful job. They got it out. They got it available in all the stores. They've got it in the publishing marketplace. They've done all that. But they have not had a big promotional budget. They haven't helped me much with promotion. And as you probably know, you could write the best book in the world, but if it's not promoted, if you don't get it out there, no one's going to see it. so it sold a few
thousand copies, but it's not going really anywhere. Now if I wanted to take this book and go back to them they would certainly accept it, and for a small price I could have it. But I think this book deserves more potential, so I've been doing my homework and finding agents. So I guess my question is: how is a writer viewed when they've kind of gone this route?
thousand copies but it's not going really anywhere. Now if I wanted to take this book and go back to them they would certainly accept it and for a small price I could have it but I think this book deserves more potential so I've been doing my homework and finding agents so I guess my question is how is a writer viewed when they've kind of gone this route
I want to move on from self-publishing. Now—oh, the other thing I will say is that once they accepted this book, and they did, they reviewed it and they decided that they would take it. It's not like you just get to say—with a hybrid, you don't just get to say, you know, "You will publish my book." Right? So they accepted it. So then they asked to see the previous book and then they took that on and published it. So now I'm in the process of saying, "Well,"
I want to from self publishing. Now, oh, the other thing I will say is that once they accepted this book and they did, they reviewed it and they decided that they would take it. It's not like you just get get to say with a hybrid, you don't just get to say, you know, you will publish my book. Right. So they accepted it. So then they asked to see the previous book and then they took that on and published it. So now when I so now I'm in the process of saying, well,
I could go back to them, but I would really like to go to a first-rate publisher this time—a traditional publisher—because I think this has the potential. And this book is mainline. I mean, there is a genre of historical fiction readers. I mean, there is a market for this kind of book. My other books were kind of edgy. And so I think that this is marketable.
And so I'd like to find an agent. So I'm in the process of finding my first, second, third, fourth tier group of agents and putting the query letters together. And I'm just wondering how to refer to my previous publishing. I mean, I certainly want to mention that I've completed a couple of books. I don't want to mislead and say...
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
The agent. I mean, you can tell an agent you had both of your other books were picked up by a hybrid publisher.
Bob Martin:
Yes, that's what I mean. Is that okay to say that?
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Yeah, yeah, because I mean, you can even say your previous books were self published. That doesn't matter. What they're looking at is your current book. So it actually doesn't matter what you previously published or did, unless it's something that like, you know, it doesn't have a good presence or it's not the genre that they're going to do, or it's like something that like completely goes against their whatever their book publishing values. So yeah, that's fine. Like you can say, yeah, I had these two books previously and they were, you know, picked up by a hybrid publisher.
Bob Martin:
huh. I can't say it. I can't say a traditional publisher, can I?
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
No, no, no, no, don't lie about that. Yeah, because a traditional hybrid publisher are two different things. Yep.
Bob Martin:
Okay, all right. So that's good. So I know what to do with that part of the query letter. And it's an interesting process. I'm getting that done. And I guess the last question is something exciting just happened. So I've sent off eight query letters now and...
Again, I mentioned that my second book was an Eastern/Western religious book, kind of like a "Rosary Stone." I mean, a Rosetta Stone. It translates the two philosophies. And so I just got a notice and an offer from one of the largest Chinese language
publishers out of Hong Kong that they would like to translate my book and publish it, and they made me an offer.
publishers out of Hong Kong that they would like to translate my book and publish it and they made me an author.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
book. Okay, perfect.
Bob Martin:
The East West Book. an offer. They made me an offer which includes an advance and a percentage and a real honest to God offer.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
I have a few questions for you. First is: did you read through the entire offer like word-for-word?
Okay, okay. The other thing I would do is I would find a literary lawyer and have them double-check it because a lot of times these agents—agents or publishing companies—will, well, you'll have to just be really careful. Because they put wording in there that can... and you were a lawyer so you know, right? But they put wording in there that can, like, take away certain things that people don't notice or don't recognize. Or just be careful that none of that type of wording is in there.
Bob Martin:
Okay, so my question is, is it appropriate? Can I now write a follow-up letter to the eight agents that I've already queried and tell them about this new development? Although it doesn't have anything to do with this particular book that I'm querying about, but it does open me up image-wise as now an internationally published author.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Right, so I would say when you write the other agents, say you have other agent interest, but you are looking at options with other agents and seeing what they can offer you. So that's how I would do it.
Bob Martin:
No, I don't mean for that book. I mean for the current fiction book that I've written, that I'm currently querying some people on. Can I write them and say, I just want to let you know that I got this offer about a completely separate book, but that now to add to my resume and my marketability as an author and your decision about whether to accept me, that now I also have
inroads into the Asian market.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Okay, so this is... so the Asian market—the publisher that has... wants to introduce you to the Asian market—is that for your... let me just be clear, historical fiction book or is that for your second book?
Bob Martin:
That's for my second book. And it's not an agent, it's the publisher.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Okay, so you have another publisher that wants to come in and take your second book and publish it in the Asian market. Okay, so the one thing you have to figure out is if that publisher has anything in conflict with the one you have now. That's.
Bob Martin:
Right Chris?
Bob Martin:
They do not.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Okay, perfect. Okay, so with that... it doesn't really matter because the historical fiction is completely different. Like you can't say like, "I've gotten another agent on this," but it's a completely different book. So you can't use that as credibility. But what you can say is that, you know, you have had agents inquire. Well, you said agents inquire about your book. They haven't actually... you don't have an agreement with them. I would say if you do go through with the agreement,
you can say, "I have had an agent and publishing and hybrid publishers pick up my other two books. And for this book, I am looking for someone like an agent or a publisher or whatever." So you can say it that way. It does give you some credibility, even though it's not the same genre and stuff. It does show that, like, you are a good writer and that someone is interested in your content. So yeah, in that form, I would say you can do that for sure.
Bob Martin:
As a follow-up letter to the ones I've already sent? Yeah. Okay, great. All right.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
I'll do it. And not like obviously shove it in your face, but just say like, hey, by the way, be professional about it. But yeah, I would say definitely do that.
Bob Martin:
So they won't be bothered or thinking that I'm bothering them by sending a follow-up letter to my query.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
You have to follow up with agents because they are so busy and they get so many inquiries and stuff. So yeah, following... as long as you didn't like just email them two days ago, but give them a couple of weeks. If it's been at least a couple of weeks, I would definitely follow up with them for sure.
Bob Martin:
Okay, great. All right.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
And congratulations, that's super exciting.
Bob Martin:
Well, thank you. I appreciate it.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Bob, this has been great. I love these questions you had for me today. I'm going to put up on here, for the people watching on YouTube, your website. But for other people who are listening on audio, please tell them where they can find you and reach out to you and, like, see the other two books that you have published.
Bob Martin:
Okay, would be authorbobmartin.com.
Lynn "Elikqitie" Smargis:
Awesome. Sounds great. Perfect. Well, Bob, thank you so much for coming on today. This has been a blast. I love answering those two questions for you. And for those of you who are listening, you can also do book coaching. Come on for a book blueprint episode. You can go to www.writeforyou.me and hit me up on my contact form to find out how you can be a book blueprint guest.
You know, my friends, I do love working with authors to get past their mindset, writing, and publishing hurdles. And if you're not sure where to start, definitely come over to my website to find out more when you book a discovery call. Until next week, this is Lynn Elikqitie reminding you to keep writing, keep dreaming, and keep creating. Your book is waiting to be born.
