On today’s episode, Sara Payne welcomes back Jennifer Hovelsrud, a seasoned leader in enterprise content marketing with over 20 years of experience across both large enterprises and high-growth startups. Together, they shake up the usual format with a dynamic exchange of marketing “hot takes,” diving deep into the challenges, tensions, and timely debates that senior marketing leaders are navigating in 2024.

Jen and Sara tackle everything from measurement pitfalls and the evolving role of content, to how AI is reshaping brand publishing, thought leadership, brand relevance, and marketing’s seat at the business strategy table. Instead of a structured interview, the show adopts a lively trust-fall approach, surfacing candid opinions and sparking spirited debate to uncover new insights for leaders in health marketing.

We hear firsthand how dashboards and metrics can become noise without a strategic lens, why brands must rethink their role as publishers in the wake of fragmented media, and how the phrase “thought leadership” has lost much of its power. The conversation also explores the new challenges of corporate statements on social issues, the friction between compliance and speed, and the dramatic shifts in brand strategy as AI exposes bland and inauthentic marketing. Ultimately, Sara and Jen remind us that marketing leadership is about navigating change, making tough trade-offs, and protecting trust, relevance, and authenticity in health care.

Thank you for being part of the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence. The future of healthcare depends on it.

Key Takeaways:

1. Measurement vs. Impact: Most Dashboards Are Motion, Not Meaning: Sara and Jen agree that today’s marketing dashboards tend to track activity impressions, downloads, engagement rates but often fail to measure true impact, such as shifts in brand perception, trust, or influence (01:54). Leading indicators and metrics are valuable, but they must be strategically aligned and connected to business outcomes rather than mere busyness or noise (02:10).
2. Brands as Publishers: Filling the Media Gap, Authentically: With traditional media fragmented and underinvested, Sara and Jen discuss how corporations must step in as publishers, providing educational and point-of-view content rather than just marketing to compete for visibility in a world shaped by AI-powered search (08:25). Success in this area will require serious auditing, new content templates, and a clear shift from promotional messaging to genuine value and instruction (13:36).
3. Thought Leadership: The Phrase Has Lost Its Punch: Sara raises the provocative question of whether “thought leadership” has become watered down, simply a catch-all for content without genuine leadership or a distinct point of view (15:03). Both speakers admit to overusing the term for internal buy-in, but call for raising the bar: true thought leadership must influence how people think and act, rather than just fill digital real estate (15:47).
4. Marketing’s Strategic Seat: From Support to Shaping Business: Instead of simply reflecting business strategy, marketing must proactively shape it. Jen argues that marketing and communications leaders need to be at the table, influencing organizational direction, business goals, and customer experience, especially as trust and education become market drivers (29:32). The shifting environment demands a new appreciation for marketing’s role as a business advisor not just a sales enabler (31:32).
5. AI and Brand Authenticity: The New Imperative for Human Content: Sara and Jen agree that AI will force brands to become more distinct and human (35:06). Rather than replace great marketing, AI exposes generic, bland strategies making authenticity, opinionated viewpoints, and clear values the competitive edge. Brand investment, particularly upper-funnel initiatives focused on trust and perception, is poised to become even more important, but only when paired with real consistency and experience (37:45), as customers judge brands by lived interactions, not just polished branding.

The episode ends with a common thread: today’s health marketing leaders are navigating change, trade-offs, and new demands for authenticity and relevance. What leaders choose to fund, say, and risk will shape trust and market impact and in the coming months, these debates may evolve even faster. Stay tuned, and thank you for being part of the Health Marketing Collective.

Mentioned in this episode:

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Welcome back to the Health Marketing Collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence. I'm your host, Sara Payne, and today I'm here with my good friend and former guest of the show, Jennifer Hovelsrud. Welcome back, Jen.

Thank you, Sara. I am so thrilled to be asked back.

Yes, I'm thrilled to have you here because we're doing something a little different today. We're changing up the format. Instead of a structured topic or interview style conversation, Jen and I are going to have a little fun today. We're going to talk about some marketing hot takes.

Trust fall.

Yeah, exactly. It's a trust fall. And really, I mean, the intent here is that we want to get into some of the challenges and the tensions that senior marketing leaders are navigating because sometimes, you know, you just got to say that thing out loud and, and see what surfaces in the debate.

Yep, yep.

And that's really the. Make it real.

Real.

Yep. Because that's, that's really what this format is about today. But before we get into that, I should, I should give everybody a little bit of context on, on your background. For those, those of you who haven't met Jen on the show before, Jen has been in health marketing for more than 20 years, including both large enterprises and high growth startups. She is a senior leader in enterprise content marketing and she's a firm believer in the power of storytelling and strong content to move markets, which is one thing. Couple things you and I have in common, among many others, which is why I'm looking forward to this conversation today.

Indeed. I can't wait to hear what you say.

I know. So we have, we have a. Yeah, true, right. Real off the cuff today. So eight total takes for each. A little bit of courage sprinkled on top and we'll see how this goes. My first, my hot take here is that I think most marketing dashboards measure motion and not impact. We're tracking things like impressions and downloads and engagement rates, but we're not asking the real question of what's changed because of it.

You know, did perception shift? Did trust in our brand deepen over time? Did we gain influence where it actually matters? I think a lot of what we're reporting today as marketing teams is noise and I think a lot of us are guilty of that. I think we've confused or conflated measurement with effectiveness. Jen, what's your take?

Yeah, that's an interesting one. I, I agree, but I have a little bit different take on what I think you're saying about it. So I'll ask you to clarify that after. But you know, there needs to be some tension in the narrative arc, right? So I'll draw attention to where maybe we potentially aren't totally aligned. So I, I totally agree with you. I think most of our marketing metrics are activity based. You know, did, did I engage with your content? Did I, did I click through, you know, what did I do next? I think that's true. But I, I think if where the next logical point you go to is not you, but the proverbial you is or what, what people.

Maybe the argument is that that means we're not trying hard enough or our measurement isn't good enough. I think that it's a leading indicator of either success or, or not. And you have to take that data point. It's one data point in the middle of what should be a lot of data points. So perhaps that engagement with your content led to an increase in perception which led to, you know, a potential sale and growth in revenue. So that's the real business impact you're looking for. So I think it's unrealistic to think that any one piece of marketing can be measured against that typically. The challenge of course is being able to show that attribution.

But I do think we're getting closer. What are your thoughts?

Yeah, so I mean you're absolutely right, right. Like I'm not, I'm not anti metrics, right. Obviously I'm, I'm, I'm anti misaligned metrics or, or, or metrics for the appearance of, of busyness. Right. And, and showcasing volume for volume sake. I agree with you that we do, we need leading indicators, right? We need, we need insights to prove that, that we're headed in the right direction. Because measuring things like trust is expensive, right? We, every brand would love to be measuring that, but it's expensive and it, it's a longer term view that you need to be looking at. So we do need those leading indicators.

But again, are they leading towards something strategic or are they leading towards more of that activity based reporting?

Yeah, I agree. And I think another good point I heard you bring up there is kind of that reminder that wouldn't it be great if those activity metrics were always even seen in a journey or the full marketing funnel so that they were planned and executed with a connection, whatever came before and after that, that they were designed to work together. We know that's not always true. And so then those metrics kind of can sit and be for activity sake only without sort of knowing if they were effective or I would say in really large siloed matrix organizations, they might not even be designed to work together. And so then, then you have a real problem.

Great point. Yeah. There's a lot of fragmentation that can happen. And to your earlier point, I think we are making a ton of progress and we are moving in the right direct. I think in the world of AI, where we're actually moving is back towards the value of trust and, you know, meaningful connection. Right. Meaningfully influencing somebody's behavior. And those metrics we might be looking at on a performance marketing standpoint are not like, to your point, like, are we connecting those dots?

You bring up a good point. And I wasn't sure how controversial you were wanting to go here, but one of things that did occur to me that I didn't say was sometimes I think we overrate what can be measured. And again, like you said, I'm not suggesting that we don't measure things and we don't hold ourselves accountable to measurement, but it, it isn't the whole story. Something could still have worked and you didn't measure it. So, you know, I agree. And I also think that AI is going to reveal a whole lot about authenticity and what you can tell that a company repeats over and over and over again authentically. And there are going to be some new metrics that come out of that and reveal or hopefully nudge us in pretty cool new directions.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Just to tie a bow on this one and then I'll toss it over to you as I just, I think we just all have to be mindful that it's dashboards themselves don't create momentum. Right. It's, it's conviction, it's trust, it's influence. And so having the right balance and perspective around that, it's going to be really important.

Really important. And there are some, some famously effective campaigns that were totally based on gut and were, were measured later. And I think it's important to leave room to experiment and innovate and not always be looking for the tried and true, you know, measured, aligned, etc.

Love that. Love that. All right, your turn for hot take.

Hey, my hot take. As we unfortunately see our news media, you know, under, invested in, taken over by private entities, splintered in, in terms of fragmented, you know, audiences, etc, there is room for corporations, companies to think of themselves as publishers and fill some of that gap.

Yeah, I mean, the, you're absolutely right that the landscape is incredibly challenging. Right. Like, there's no denying that for sure. And I think there's a, there's an interesting kind of juxtaposition here because there is a tremendous opportunity for brands as publishers to fill in some of that space and to step up. But I also think what we're seeing a lot of being reported around sort of the, the future of not SEO but geo and, and that is actually going to really require that we show up in media channels right. So that our content is surfacing in those searches would, you know, they're not gonna turn to Google anymore to look for things. They're going to turn to, you know, a chatbot. And so not that the branded content and branded journalism isn't going to surface in that, but it does require that your domain or wherever you're publishing that has a level of, of authority that's going to come along with that and those, those media outlets are going to tend to surface that content for media outlets to, it's going, going to tend to surface before branded level content again depending on who your organization is.

And so I agree with you but I want to throw in that challenger flag with and yet we can't give up on that because it's going to be really important.

It's a great point. So if you think you can get rid of your PR team and pursuing earned media, that's not what it means. It'll still be important. What you put out on social will be important to influencing those. If I'm understanding what I'm reading in terms of what we know about AI generated search at this point. But also I think it's going to be incumbent upon those of us in corporate marketing to make sure that there is more point of view instruction, education, consistency like real valuable content in less marketing on our websites if we're going to want to play in that game. And I kind of wonder if mini hot take here if we don't see a reordering of the dominant players that have been used to sort of buying their visibility and that game may be changing a bit.

I agree with you. I do think that that's coming. I think that's a very real dynamic that your brands are not going to be able to just rest on buying their way in anymore. And I, I do so there will be kind of a, a re structuring of that and an opportunity and lean in. But also to your point, really important point, we've got to think hard about that content that we're putting out there. I heard you say less marketing on our websites, right? More commitment to education and the kind of content that people actually need and are truly searching for right in. In these chat bots. So I think that's a really important point.

What do you think is the hardest part of. Of like living that out?

I think the hardest part of living that out, almost regardless of what size your organization is, is making sure that, well, it's a cultural shift. So even back to our idea that metrics, Metrics feel safe, if you can prove it out, this is a change. And most organizations that I've been part of, unless you're directly selling something, people get uncomfortable that it's a waste of money. We know that's not true. But this will, this will be a big shift in leadership, in investment, in approach. And I also think there's going to be legacy debt on a lot of our platforms that just aren't built that way. We're going to have to audit clear old content out, have new templates that sort of feed those, those, those AI metrics in the way they are more Q and A and listicles and long form and everything else that appears to be emerging and then also being able to keep up with it.

Yeah, great point. And I love the way that you kind of outlined that, you know, really from a larger corporate, you know, enterprise level. I mean, this is the to do list. And I'd say to folks like, get going on it now because this is coming. Right. Like, if you're not thinking about this shift in less marketing content, more educational content, more content with a point of view, you need to be moving in that direction and start auditing and deciding what are some of those other changes that need to happen.

Yeah, and making investments in your digital properties in a way that you maybe have not before. And I think if you were at a really large organization, I can only assume that the discrepancies in your point of view are going to hurt you being able to influence those answers that. That come up. And so really aligning what you say do produce the results you get, I think we're all going to be forced to clean. Clean a lot of that disconnection up.

Yeah, great point. Consistency will be important. Authenticity will be important. No doubt. All right, let's. Let's move on to our next one. Hot take this one might annoy people, but I think thought leadership as a phrase is overused. It's been watered down.

And really we're at a point where it just means content people are thr. It's kind of like strategy. It's kind of like innovation. It's become that sort of hot IT phrase. And marketing, frankly, executives are guilty of doing this. Like we, you know, let's do more thought leadership kind of really, they're talking about content. My, my point of view here is if it doesn't change how someone thinks or how they act, it's not thought leadership, it's just content. And there's nothing wrong with that.

There's nothing wrong with content. But calling everything thought leadership really lowers the bar so much that the, the term doesn't really mean anything anymore. So to me, leadership implies a point of view. And I'm just going to say not every blog post has one. What are your thoughts?

No, I think when we got in the digital age, when we got a chance to write our own content again, the culture was to sell. And we've gotten real creative about how to sell without not directly selling. And we call it thought leadership. And I agree with you there. There has to be some new leading point of view for it to really fall into that category. However, I do probably overuse the term myself. People. Internally, it does garner sometimes investments because I think every corporation wants to think about leading in the space and they see the tie to, to that and growing their, their business.

So I am waiting for there to be a really good replacement that comes along and, you know, has as much sway internally because I do think it irritates people externally and it sounds arrogant and it, it should, it should set a very high bar for what you put out there and call that leadership.

Yeah, but I'm glad you said that because I think we're all guilty of it. Like, thought leadership is the thing every, you know, everybody wants to be, everybody wants to be a leading voice in their industry. And so you're right, you throw that out there and everyone's like, yes, let's do it right, and it gets funded and. Right. Everybody's on board with it. So I think we're all guilty of leveraging that to an extent while also elevating the, the role of that content. Right. To have a distinct point of view as much as we possibly can.

So, yeah, I, I don't know what's going to come next, and I'm not mad at it. That thought leadership is the cool kid at the marketing table. I think it was long coming, long overdue, but I think it's on all of us to really try to elevate that content as much as possible and not, but not everything has to have a point of view either.

No, not everything has to. And, and maybe, maybe that cool kid at the table peaked early and it's, it's Just time to, to leave the lunch table and find like friends his own age too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh gosh, that's funny. I love that. Great, great, great. Thanks for picking up my analogy and just taking it one step further.

I liked it, I liked it.

I like those Tater tots are cold. We gotta move on.

Yeah, that's right.

All right. What, what do you got for your next hot take?

So kind of related. These are stacking nicely. And again, I hope everyone believes like we have no idea.

No, literally, I have no idea.

Literally no idea. But if, you know, if what pre three years ago, pre four years ago, it, it was, it became much more popular for the CEO and leadership of your company to come out with a point of view on societal topics and throw your brand behind support and have that look like you're putting a stake in the ground. We certainly saw a lot of that around the, you know, George, George Floyd killing, for example.

Yep.

It feels like it's really moved in the other direction where CEOs are being quieter or I think because of what we've seen in terms of some of those same organizations potentially flip flopping based on the administration that's currently in office. Maybe we lost some trust in that or maybe certain organizations lost trust in that. So here's my hot take. Like it. You know, we talked about AI metrics. I think companies are going to be held to an even higher degree around what they do and what they're saying at scale and being held accountable for or scrutinized where those things don't align. And the idea of what your CEO comes out and believes or doesn't believe or gets behind and doesn't get behind. There may be less desire or tolerance or effectiveness in doing that.

Yeah. I mean, this is such a great one. I'm so glad you had this one on your list because I didn't think of it at all and I think it's such an important topic right now. You're absolutely right. And I think, I think back to. Let me restate that. So whatever, whatever it was six years ago when everybody was jumping on every bandwagon that there was to jump on to. Where we are now is, is.

Let's just call those the two extremes. Yeah, right. And we gotta find the middle. And the middle to me is that you are making those decisions based on your core values. Right. You're not trying to please everybody or, you know, not trying to upset anybody. You know, your convictions can't be blowing in the wind because they're not convictions Then, right, like, so go back to your core values and as an organization decide what are the societal issues, the social issues that we as a brand want to stand for. Because it can't be all of them.

It can't be climate change and DEI and you know, go right on down the list. Pick one, pick two. Maybe you're ambitious and you want to pick three, that's fine, whatever is the right size for your organization. But then be comfortable with the fact that going all in on that thing is not going to make you friends with everybody. But that's okay because it doesn't matter because it's what you believe in as an organization. And I, what you said in, in your hot take really resonated with me and got me to this. Thinking around, you know, kind of the two poles of where we've been over the past few years and now we need to find the middle is. I think it's going to lead to a better place.

I really do. I think it's, I think it's a wake up call because I remember the conversations when, when George Floyd was killed and I remember conversations in consulting clients and everybody was calling and everybody was saying, do we need to put out a statement? Everybody's putting out a statement. What's our statement going to be? And I remember some clients saying, I don't want to do this just to do it, because is this our thing to carry? Not that we're, you know, not right, we're not anti, we're just like, is this our thing? Like we're a brand in this completely. You like, is that our thing that we're going to put a flag in the ground on? And I think that's exactly the right conversation, is we can't all be jumping in one direction or touching absolutely nothing and not having any stand. So yeah, I'm really glad you brought this one up.

Question around what you just said, like when you were consulting clients around this, as I heard you answer that, it, it, you know, it occurs to me that you can't have every CEO setting sort of their own platform. I mean, you certainly can. But a brand moving that quickly is going to be hard to track, it's going to be hard to be known for those things and it's going to be hard to reinvent your digital footprint across some of those things too. So what, what would you advise an organization and an incoming CEO who maybe wants to relook at that platform? How would you advise?

I think it's fair to revisit them on occasion. I Think it needs to be revisited to make sure that it's still authentic and true and there's still a commitment. And what are we doing to demonstrate that we were committed to that? I think that's important. But it all goes back to the core values again. And so how often are you updating your core values? And organizations do. And that's okay. But again, these things aren't blowing in the wind. They're written into the DNA and the fabric of your organization and your core values and your culture.

And so I don't think that every new CEO that walks in the door should be picking their personal passion, project, or organization. I think it's hardwired in the DNA of the organization. I. I think about Patagonia, right? Like, that's the one brand that in this whole con, just keeps, like, right in front of my face. Prime example. Right. And that goes back to the, to the founding of them as an organization. And it is woven into the fabric of everything that they do.

That's, to me, what we're talking about here. Like, that's what the stakes are, is really figuring it out on that level. And again, it doesn't mean you can't add something new or walk back or slightly modify or say, you know, we're, we're. We've decided, you know, this the next generation of our company. We're, we're in support of this, but it's not something to be changed every, you know, 12 months or, or four years even.

Agree. And I, I also think we're. What we're probably saying is, tell me if you disagree. It really shouldn't be about any one leader or about your CEO. You said it's about what your company believes, and that should transcend any one person. Again, doesn't mean that it should change or that it can't change, but it shouldn't change because of one person's areas of passion, perhaps.

Yeah, totally agree, Totally agree. Love that one. My next hot take is you're gonna probably disagree with me on this one, but long approval cycles are killing brand relevance.

If your content.

If your content needs six layers of approval, it's already lost relevance. And again, I'm not, I'm not saying to remove compliance, especially in healthcare. I understand the industry that we're working in and all the regulatory considerations, but we can't be about eliminating risks at all costs, because what you lose with that is, is the human element, the speed, the personality, the voice. So that's my take.

Yeah. So here's my take. I, I Mean, I think it certainly doesn't help you to be timely. Right. And give your own hot take on, on a topic. But I think if those approvals are about minimizing risk, and certainly some of them have to be, but then you're, you're using your approvals and those, you know, SME voices internally for the wrong reasons, and that'll be that cultural change that we were talking about. If it gets you to a place where you are more closely aligned to what the company believes and is doing and the results you're getting, then I would say those, those approvals have a really important point that surpasses being relevant. And I think what will be important for corporations and agencies that advise corporations is to make sure that you really get clear on, you said this, like, who you are, what you do, why you do it, how what you do is aligned, and what your point of view is on those things.

Because that gives the people that are developing that content really nice territory to explore and they know where they can push the envelope and where they can't. And it shows up in aggregate as being tied together and not a bunch of individual voices.

Yeah, I agree.

Little to do.

I think we got to find that again, the happy medium. Right. Similar theme here. Right. Like, can we move? We're not, we're not talking about getting rid of approvals. Right. That's not realistic. But we're saying can we move from, you know, eight approvals to five or six to three.

Right. And, and to your point, adding in certain guardrails and that, that empowers the team that's working on that content to know upfront whether that's even going to play or not. Right. Um, so, yeah, I think it's, it's guardrails without the gridlock and, and that's the sweet spot that we're looking for there.

Yep, totally agree. And I, I think you nailed it. Like, our business leaders need to be able to trust their marketing and comps partners that are developing this and our, those marketing comms partners need to be sure they're deeply embedded in, you know, the aligned point of view and the business.

Yeah, well said.

It'll take mutual trust.

Well said.

Next hot take again. These, like, there's, there's, there's something weird going on here. I, I, my take. Agree or disagree. Oftentimes, or at least in most of the organizations I have been in, we think about marketing and communication as needing to reflect the business strategy. I think we're gonna, I think this probably was always the case, but we're gonna feel it more acutely that marketing needs to be a leader at the table. Marketing comms needs to be a leader at the table and influencing business strategy as well. And that, that alignment up and down that point of view to what we produce and the results we get, there has to be somebody at the table reflecting who we serve, what we say, and just keeping tighter alignment and keeping that front and center way more so than we have in the past.

Yeah, I mean I totally agree with you on this one. And you know, this format is, we're, we're supposed to be disagreeing with each other. This is going to be a hard one for me to disagree with you on because you're absolutely right. I mean we've been talking about several times in this conversation already. It's about trust. You know, what, what's going to move market, what's going to, what's going to move a buyer? Trust. And where does trust come from? Comes from the brand and the customer experience and being, being real and, and, and, and having people understand what you're trying to do and how you can help them and all of that content, educational content, thought leadership, content that comes around that there is a steering opportunity that a marketing comms leader has at the business level to help unlock that, you know, at the business level. Right, like you, you want to be like an actual thought leader.

If you want to be a leader in your category, that is a comms job. Like you have to have, you have to have the innovation and you have to have the disruptive thing that's going to change the market. But it is a comms job to condition the market for that change. And that's a great example where marketing and comms, the work of marketing and comms is sitting right there at the business strategy level. So yeah, hard for me to disagree with you on this one. I guess I wonder why, why it's taken so long. You know what, what is so uncomfortable about having marketing and comms at the table at the business level? I wish we knew the answer on that.

Yeah, we should knew the answer on that too. It's I, you know, and maybe it's incumbent upon, you know, those of us that have, have had the chance to ensure that we, the business leaders think of us differently. And certainly there are organizations where they've made headway in that. But as a whole, you know, when you look at the average tenure of a cmo, you know, as, as a society, I don't think we've appreciated the importance of that Business advisor Outside, outside of helping us sell things. I might be overstating that. You can call me on it.

No, I, I agree. I mean, I think I see a lot of takes on this on, on LinkedIn as well. That, you know, the, the, when the business isn't performing, fingers point to marketing. Right, Right. And that's not, there's, there is a factor there for sure and a responsibility and an accountability to our earlier point. Right. The metrics have to show that we are contributing at the business level and yet marketing so easily becomes the scapegoat in that situation. Right.

Versus looking at the holistic view. And marketing is but one layer of that one layer.

And we, we can be an easy scapegoat. I, I admit that, but I, you know, one more push on this topic. I also think if, if you are, if we are in this environment where it really is important to offer a point of view and you know, be, be publishing with value and have the results to back it up, I think marketing and comms is going to need to be able to influence some of those business goals for the results we get. For example, if I am saying, you know, this health device gets, you know, I want to be able to say it's, you know, it does A, B and C. This is maybe too black and white of an example, but you know, I, I need you to get results if I'm going to be able to, to do my part. That's nothing new, but I think I might need a seat at the table to an even greater degree in an AI environment.

100%. 100% agree. And like, I, I think all signs are pointing in that direction and I actually think we're seeing, we're seeing it play out actually in real time right now where, where, where CEOs and, and boards are making the decision to have marketing have a bigger seat at the table. And so I think very soon we're going to start to see more case studies like, case study esque impact of that. Like, why not. Let's lean into it, right. If what we've been doing, what we've been doing to date isn't working, let's try something different.

Yeah, Agreed.

All right, Hot take number seven. This one's about AI. I, I believe I will force brands to be more human. I don't think it's going to replace great marketing. I think it's actually going to expose mediocre marketing. And I think this is some of what you were talking about earlier, brands as publishers. Right. We've got to get more Scrupulous about the content that we're putting out there and making sure that it's high quality.

So, you know, we all know this AI scales whatever you feed it, right? So if your strategy is weak, it's going to scale your weakness. And if your point of view is strong, it will scale that too. And so I think that this is about being more strategic and also being more human, more opinionated, more distinct, because generic is going to get really crowded and people will have not have a lot of tolerance for that.

No. And you know, again, it's, it's not helpful to anybody if we sit here and agree. But I do agree with you and I would maybe flush out a couple of those points even more by saying, you know, it's. We all have the same tool. Yes, you can get it, give it different prompts, but from, from a brand standpoint, more people being able to create more content faster is kind of a nightmare. And so how, how do, how do you, what does strong marketing look like if you know what we're saying likely is a winning strategy in the future in an AI environment, those companies that can pivot, empower employees to share an aligned but strong point of view, to be human, to differentiate themselves in terms of a whole lot of different things, like what do those tools look like? And then how do you set people free to use them in a way that, that builds your brand and your business in. And, and that's the key, an authentic way. So, yeah, you know, if we've all been busy trying to be polished up to this point, polish isn't going to win the day probably going forward to your point.

Love that. Yeah, Great sound bite. All right, you got, you have the honors here of our last hot take.

Okay, maybe this is a nice bow on it or it'll fall flat. Let's see. Brand investment has always been hard to rationalize, especially upper funnel. You know, building awareness, building trust, building perception, all those things, they're hard to measure and they're not about selling a product in the moment and, or at least in the places I've been, brand investment, upper funnel has been a tough argument. I would say it's going to be as important or more important as we move forward. Not because we're, we want to achieve perfection, but because we need to understand who we are, what we believe, and give people the, the guard rails to operate in. Is brand the answer going forward or, or not?

So is it brand or brand awareness?

Oh, it's a good question. So let's say brand. Let's say brand and not awareness. Awareness as a goal. But it's, it's been, it's been hard to rationalize upper funnel brand investment or upper funnel goals because they, they're squishier to measure like that way back to our very first. Yeah, Hot tape. Yeah, they, it can be a really hard thing to, to measure the output of your investment.

So I'm going to react to this and it may or may not align with where you're going with this. So this is very real time. But I played around with a hot take of like branding as a function is dead. And that's like super controversial. And I don't, I don't mean it like, I don't see the power of developing, developing a brand.

Yeah.

But what I mean is, is that the, the function of communicating your brand or branded content is that more human version of the content is, that could be educational content, but it is like it is more outside in than inside out is really what I mean. I think for too long we've been navel gazing and we've been, we've been standing at a podium and we've been like, that's what I mean by branding instead. Like, we can't stand here and be like, I'm so great or my brand is so great. No, no, no, no. We're, we're actually communicating it from the customer point of view. What is the problem that we're solving? What is the issue that we're speaking to? And it isn't my brand this or my brand that. And so I think I'm with you on this one. Like, I, I, I, I think that whole concept of what that content functions to do, it's kind of becoming a little bit irrelevant.

It's serving more of an internal purpose than I'd argue an external one. I don't know, I don't know if that aligns with where you were going with this, but that was my first initial reaction to it.

No, I love where you took it because I was thinking of, I was thinking of something slightly different. I love where you took it. Well, I was thinking of that. But you took it to the place where sort of money rubber meets the road and it's, it's around branding. So do you invest in this brand you can own that is recognizable and that is for sure about selling. And so at what point does that sort of become a lost art? If it does become about authenticity, it does become outside in and then probably more of your resources, not that that's ever going to go by the wayside. Like, you know, every something you put out shows up with a different color.

Right.

Every time. That's chaotic. But the idea that you, that what your brand does is really provide internal alignment around who the company is.

Yeah.

How they show up and sound, what you believe, what you do. Maybe some of those deeper principles that you need to be able to reflect to your audience than some of the more surface things that we think of as branding.

Yeah, I would agree with that. I think there is this, there's this internal function of who we are and what we stand for and the consistency piece, the colors, the like, all of that. Yes, totally agree with that. And then there's the acceptance of the, of the. But I actually, our brand as we know it, we can control these things, but it's out there living in the world and it is actually the customer experience with the brand. That is the brand. And that is.

That is. I see what you're saying.

Right. So there's just like, there's this interesting juxtaposition. Right. Where we have to sort of be okay with letting go of that control, but also managing against how that actual experience is showing up out in the world.

No, I love what you're saying. I think it's putting the pressure in the right place. And again, red, Red string flowing through all of this. I think it puts the pressure in the right place because too often marketing teams, brand teams are asked to PR teams are asked to lift reputation, lift brand. And we know that really in reality, outside in the brand is absolutely everything you do decide every experience someone has with you. And that does, and certainly should go far beyond any marketing effort. So maybe marketing, maybe marketing needs to start going well beyond a function of helping a company sell. I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, it's. I, I love that we're leaving it here because I think it's gonna, it's gonna inspire some introspection for marketing leaders to kind of chew on that on their own too and, and, and think about what feels right for, for their organization and, and really push on some of these ideas and figure out like, yeah, we're, we're headed in some. Definitely in some serious direction on, on a number of these fronts. And what's interesting is we, you know, eight hot takes. Right. And as I kind of replay them in my head, what strikes me is a common theme here is this is about leadership.

Yes.

And trade offs.

Change. Trade offs. Leading through change.

Leading through change. Yep. What we're willing to fund and stop funding, frankly, that's Part of the trade off piece. Right. What we're willing to say out loud, what we're willing to risk at the end of the day to protect that trust in the company and the brand and the relationships that we have in the marketplace. I mean, I think you said it when you said the seat at the table, hot take. I think we live in a world where marketing's never been more scrutinized, but also never been more consequential.

Yes. Yeah, I. Well, well put. And just, you know, when we talk about leadership, the idea that, I mean, great time for a visionary leader, too, to be able to anticipate what's coming. Because I, I wonder how, how long will it take for us to sound naive here in terms of where this, this technology really took? I mean, it's going to come quickly, right?

Yeah. Like, how fast will this conversation we've had today age? Right? Like three months from now? People are like, wow, duh. Thanks, guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, for sure. I mean, navigating this tension is, is the real job of leadership. And, you know, that's part of the reason why this show exists is to really explore those tensions and, and really help inspire leaders and share insights around the table. So, Jen, thanks so much for being willing to spar with me a little bit today. I.

I thought that was fun.

Thank you. I had a great time. So thank you for asking me.

Maybe it won't be the last time. Maybe we'll be back with a fresh set of, of hot takes because, you know, like you said, these are going to be outdated in like, three months. So we'll, we'll be back with more.

Yeah, but you're gonna, you're gonna need to up your, your frequency, too.

Awesome. Well, to our listeners, don't forget to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And thank you for being part of the health marketing collective, where strong leadership meets marketing excellence, because the future of healthcare depends on it. We'll see you next time.