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Guide vs Hero Leadership with J.J. Peterson

We’ve all been told to be bold, be the hero and “own the room.” But what if that’s backwards? In this conversation with StoryBrand professor and Badass Softie founder Dr J.J. Peterson, you’ll discover why the strongest character in any story is the guide, not the hero. You’ll learn J.J.’s two‑sentence framework for capturing attention, how to define your own leadership story and why practising joy builds resilience. By the end, you’ll know how to shift your mindset, communicate like a guide and inspire your team.

For the full list of timestamps, key takeaways, and all resources mentioned, visit the full episode page here:

https://www.deirdremartin.ie/blog/guide-vs-hero-leadership

If leading your team sometimes feels a little bit like

you're herding cats while you're carrying the weight of the whole

company on your shoulders, let me just tell you here and now, that doesn't

mean that you're bad at leadership.

It possibly just means that you're actually really fully overloaded.

And here's the thing that happens to a lot of leaders and founders and people

who are running businesses and they have other people who are supporting

them with it is the thing that might be.

Maybe slowing it down or not helping you achieve the performance that you

deserve as quickly as you deserve it.

It could be something to do with your communication style, and I

don't mean, you know, be fluffy and nice kind of communication style.

I mean the kind where you walk into the room, say one sentence and suddenly.

The whole thing.

It's like, you know, taken off like a steam train, because everyone knows the

direction you're going, why it matters, and what they're responsible for.

And I've seen this in my career in banking over the years because

when the leader's unclear, what happens is the team gets anxious.

They need that certainty so that they know what's happening and the

direction in which they're going.

And anxious teams don't move forward.

People who are anxious, they freeze or they fight or they check out.

And that's where we're going today.

My amazing guest is Dr. JJ Peterson.

He's StoryBrand professor in residence.

He's a leadership and communication expert, former university professor,

and someone who spent years in rooms with leaders who look unstoppable

on stage and then create absolute fricking chaos behind the scenes.

And in this conversation, JJ breaks down a shift that's

seriously so wild once you see it.

Which is that most leaders are trying to be the hero of the story, the hero of the

business, but actually the best leaders, the ones we really want to follow, the

ones that we aspire to be like, they're the ones that show up as the guide.

We're talking how to lead without crushing your team, how to stop

dumping new initiatives on people like there're a problem and the

exact way to open meetings so people lean in instead of shrinking back.

Quick note.

JJ also has a resource for you connected to his work.

I'll tell you where to grab it later in the episode.

So keep listening, and if you haven't heard JJ'S first appearance on the

show, our episode on Story Powered Marketing, go and binge it after this.

He's incredible.

So today's episode is what happens when you take story and aim it at leadership.

All right, let's go.

Jj, welcome back to Master Your Business Podcast.

Dr. JJ Peterson: Thank you for having me.

So excited to be here.

Jj, you are like the only person who's had the privilege

of coming back for a second time.

Dr. JJ Peterson: Oh my goodness.

That is a privilege.

It's so good to see you.

I.

Well, I'm super excited to have you here today because the last time

you were on the show we talked about all things story powered marketing, and this

time we're talking about maybe a different kind of a chapter that's evolving

for you and for me, coincidentally.

So how about starting there and sharing what that looks like for you?

Dr. JJ Peterson: Yeah, so for the past 10, really almost 11 years,

I have been working at StoryBrand helping company clarify their message,

helping companies clarify their message using the power of story,

which is what you have done as well.

And I have loved that and I'm continuing to do that.

However, I just turned 50 this year.

I also got married.

About a year ago, I am now the father of four children,

which was never on the radar.

And so it causes me to kind of, you know, pause and go, what do I

want the next 10, 15 years to look like if I have 10 or 15 years left

in the business world and working.

Probably longer, but you know, like ideally if it's like, if

I could retire at 60, what do I wanna do in the next 10 years?

And I want to continue to help people, businesses in

particular, clarify their message.

However, my journey is about 20 years ago, I actually was doing improv comedy.

I was touring around the United States doing comedy.

And I loved it, but the touring life was just not for me.

Like, you know, staying up till two in the morning, taking a bus,

playing, you know, car to the next city and then doing it all over again.

So it was really fun.

But the lifestyle just wasn't really for me.

And I remember being on a tour stop in Washington DC and I was

talking to my friend and just saying, I love what I'm doing, but

I'm ready for something different.

And he just kind of started peppering me with questions.

And I realized that when I was touring, we did a lot of like conferences

and corporate events and I would see these unbelievable leaders on stage.

These people who are just like dynamic and bold and doing big things.

And then I would watch them walk off stage and I would see a lot of the trauma

that they were creating on their teams.

And I would see a lot of the pain that they were causing, or just the

miscommunication where they were trying to get things done, but they

couldn't get their team on board.

And I remember telling my friend, I just would love to go back and help

raise up the next generation of leaders.

To be better about the way that they communicate and lead.

And he was like, well then why don't you do it?

And so I, at that point then I decided I was gonna be done, kind

of wind down my comedy career.

And I went back and got my master's degree.

And then I ultimately got my PhD and I started teaching at the university level.

And my, the first two classes that I taught were leadership.

So every freshman that came into the university had to

go through my leadership.

Class.

And then the second class that I taught was communication.

And those really is where I started kind of building my career in

helping leaders communicate and lead well understand who they are.

And I feel like I've always kind of done that like in, you know,

in, in the StoryBrand world.

But as I started to think about my legacy of what I wanted my last 10 years

to be, I thought I really would love to get back to refocusing on helping

leaders communicate well and lead well.

So while I'm still at StoryBrand and still my title there is

actually professor in residence.

I'm actually launching a new brand called Badass Softie.

And Badass Softie is the idea that I, that you can be a leader

who is unapologetically driven, but also lead with heart.

And so what I do is I help leaders understand their own kind of leadership

style and who they are, and then.

Teach them how to communicate clearly with their teams and also communicate

if they're want to be thought leaders like in books and courses and webinars.

And then ultimately there's kind of a third component about bringing

joy to the work you're doing.

And that's really kind of what I've shifted a little bit.

I still help companies with their marketing, but really I'm back to that

heart that I had 20 years ago of helping leaders be better about communicating

and about the way they lead their teams.

Oh, I love this evolution for you, jj.

And it's not even evolution, it's like closing the story loop.

Right?

Dr. JJ Peterson: And like I said, I feel like I still did that while I was in, but

I'm kind of just refocusing a little bit and getting back in that space a bit more.

Yeah, I love that.

And so aligned to my own journey too, which is interesting because I've

just finished my advanced coaching diploma with neuroscience, and it's

like, where's that gonna lead me?

And it is gonna open more doors for conversations with companies

and leaders in those companies, which was my background, right?

That's what I did for 20 years.

I was a leader in a corporate, and so I'm like, Ooh, I'm going back there now.

Now I have the.

Wanna say I have the kahunas to do it because like, it took

me a while to get outta there.

But to go back is exciting.

So I'm curious.

Right.

And I think there's definitely an alignment between the story and

the external story that we tell people, but then there's the internal

stuff and how we lead people.

And it's that communication and influencing that you're referring to.

Oh yeah, I can definitely picture those guys coming off

the stage and the conversations with them like, yes, PTSD here.

So talk me through what that looks like for a leader and

like some of the challenges that they're facing with their teams.

And I'm thinking even multi-generational and working

from home and hybrid environments and all of that kind of stuff.

So where do you start with people?

Dr. JJ Peterson: Where I start with people is really showing up

and saying, you need to have your own point of view as a leader.

And what I mean by that is it kind of bleeds into a couple different areas.

The first is, I think a lot of people like me have kind of been

in the, like, you know, I've worked with Fortune 20 companies.

Like I, I like at, you know, of the top 20 companies in the world.

I think I've worked with at least five of them.

And then in the top 100 you're talking, you know.

Again, a huge amount.

And so I've been in a lot of these rooms with very powerful, strong people.

And a lot of times I thought I needed to be like them.

And so I, you know, listened to, maybe some crypto bros that I wasn't

too excited about listening to, but I wanted them to push me to be.

Like more bold and ambitious.

And they did, but I kept looking at them going, that's not who I am.

And so the first thing I really work with leaders on is understanding

what is your point of view?

What type of leader do you wanna be?

Pause for a minute.

You've looked at everybody else.

You've learned from everybody else.

Who do you want to be?

What are your goals and ambitions and what is the story you

wanna write with your life?

That's really where I start with leaders.

What kind of story do you wanna write with your life?

What kind of legacy do you wanna leave?

Then from there.

What I do is I walk through and it's not always sequential depending on what people

need, but then really the next part is helping them understand that their job in

this world, after they understand their own story and who they wanna be, then

it's showing up and saying, alright, I.

How do you lead others?

And you and I come from the StoryBrand world, and we understand that the most

powerful character in any story is the guide in the story, not the hero.

Right?

So, you know, we've talked about this before.

I know you've talked about this before, but in the movie, Luke Skywalker is

the Hero and Yoda is the guide Frodo.

in Lord of the Rings is the hero.

Gandalf is the guide.

You know, you could go on and on.

Dumbledore is the guide.

Harry Potter is the hero, and what that means is there's always

somebody who in a movie that comes along to help the hero win the day.

Heroes are actually insecure.

They're weak in movies.

They're up and down all over the place.

They're in jail.

They're alone.

They've made mistakes, and the guide comes along to help the hero win because

they've been there and they've done that.

They've already won the day.

They don't need to prove anything.

And as a leader, if you shift your mentality.

To from, I need to win this meeting, or I need to win this quarter, or I need

to, no, and that's a hero mentality, and that's not bad for your own personal

journey, but when you're leading other people, they can see that if

you are showing up as the hero of your story and they are living their own

story, that they're the hero of, and often leaders position themselves as.

In competing stories with the people that they're leading.

They're trying to be the hero, and their employees are trying to be the hero,

and then they're living in two different stories, and in many times, they're

actually competing against each other because one has to win and one has to

lose if you're both in hero journeys.

But if you as a leader, show up as a guide.

The person who is the wise, empathetic, authoritative figure who's gonna

help people win, then you are not only the strongest character in

the story, but everybody wins.

And where that really comes into play is what we were talking about, communication.

It's really this idea of when you stand up in front of your team to do the kickoff

call for the year, are you saying, Hey guys, this is gonna be our best year,

yet we are going to double our revenue.

We are going to, you know, these are all the things and

you're, we have to be focused and driven, and all of those things.

That story, if a leader gets up and says those words, that story is about

the company and about that leader.

It's not about the employee.

And what you have to pause before you do any kind of excitement.

Launch communication is go, how do I communicate to this team in a

way that invites them into a story that they get to be the hero of?

And what that, and I'll give some really simple tips here.

The first thing is you have to pause and understand what is it that

everybody in the room wants, and what is the problem that is getting in

the way of them accomplishing that.

So for instance, when I go on stage at a marketing conference

and I'm speaking to a thousand marketers or a thousand businesses.

I don't walk up on that stage and say, how's everybody doing today?

Oh, I can't hear you.

How's it?

No, I do.

That's, I will walk out of the room if somebody does that

on a stage, but I'm not it.

Because what you're doing is you're trying to get the audience to affirm you.

That's a hero moment, or I don't get up and I don't tell the funniest

story that I have to try to get people to like me or tell a joke.

You know, boy, the weather's crazy here.

No, you don't do any of that.

I walk up on stage and I say two sentences almost every time.

The first is I have somebody else introduce me, and then I walk up on

stage and I say, how many of you are here because you want to grow your business?

Everybody's gonna raise their hand.

If they've just spent a couple thousand dollars to grow their

business, they raise their hand.

So then I will repeat that and I will just say, you're right.

We are all in this room to grow our business.

But here's the problem.

Most of you are wasting thousands of dollars on marketing because

you're telling the wrong story and you don't even know it.

You can hear a pin drop in that room, and it doesn't matter.

People don't need to like me.

They don't need to think I'm funny.

All of a sudden now I'm in their story.

I'm there to help them win.

So when you're presenting to a team, when you stand up and start

with, this is gonna be our best year yet, and we're so excited, or you

start berating your team instantly, you've become the hero of the story.

And they recognize that and they shrink.

But if you pause and you go, everybody in this room is really

driven by serving our customers well.

You start with something that they would all nod their heads to, or you

say, everybody in this room wants to be collaborative and really help support

each other, so you just name it and then you say, but here's the problem,

is our systems are actually getting in the way of us helping each other.

In fact, the way that we.

Operate is actually slowing our coworkers down because of the

systems, not because of who you are.

So we are going to operationalize our systems in a way that actually

helps everybody win versus coming in.

So that I started with, you want to be collaborative and help each other.

The problem is our systems are wrong.

Then I say, here's the solution.

What most leaders do is they walk in with the solution.

They'll start out by going, all right, everybody, so we are gonna

operationalize our systems and we are going to make everybody, and everybody

needs to be on board with this.

You and I need a paper signed by Tuesday that tells me that you're gonna do right.

And everybody is going, oh crap, I'm in trouble.

How am I gonna do this?

How does this help me?

And if you.

Invite them into a story and control the narrative first by saying, here's what

you want and here's the problem that now I'm gonna present a solution for.

It positions everybody.

You serve as the hero of the story and you're their guide.

You're giving them the tools and the plan to help them win.

So those are how I really start.

I really start with understand your own leadership style.

Who do you want to be and what do you want to accomplish in

the business or in yourself?

Then two, how then are you going to communicate that and show up?

And that may be publicly with your marketing, so you're putting out your

thought leadership or your business leadership, or your business brand, or it

really, in many ways could be internally.

And how are you showing up and leading your own team in a way that really.

You're the strongest character in the story if you show up as a guide.

But nobody really thinks of it that way.

They see you as the person who's helping them win.

And then really the last piece that I work with people that, that's the core.

I will say that's the core and that's what you and I do a lot of.

And then the last piece that we can talk about kind of at the end is this

idea that I'm kind of with the badass softy brand is the idea of practice joy.

And there's a lot of pieces to that that come with it.

But really the core is that communication piece.

Oh, that's so powerful, jj.

Like, I literally had goose pimples and I could feel the pin

dropping in the podcast over Zoom.

Yeah, I love that.

And it's so impactful.

And even when you talk about that from a leader's perspective it's like personal

branding for them in terms of designing what their narrative is gonna be in

the organization, in the company, and also for their legacy beyond that too.

Right.

Dr. JJ Peterson: Yeah.

And you know the truth is when you're younger in leadership, you

are borrowing from other people and you're trying to figure it out.

But as you grow in your leadership, I think understanding who you want to

be and what kind of legacy you want to leave behind, and if you wanna

be the person, I mean, I actually know business leaders who are like.

I was listening to a guy speak the other day and he literally said, if you wanna

work life balance don't come work for me.

I spend weekends with my kids and that's it.

But then I work about 20 hours a day and I plan on doing that for

five years, and then I wanna retire.

So if you go and work for him.

So in some ways that's actually really, really clear.

Like I actually appreciate him going, like, if you want

work-life balance, don't be here.

But if you want to be here for five years and maybe almost destroy yourself,

I'm gonna make you a millionaire.

He was just like very clear about it.

But I knew then I don't want to be that person.

Right.

And I think a lot of us look at leaders like that and you go, oh, you're right.

I should be, you know, getting up early and cold plunging.

Exercising and doing all of these mind meditation and do all the things

that like, you know, starting at 3:00 AM so I can be done by three.

And they put out all of these things and it's like, yeah, that's good, but I

don't know that that's who I wanna be.

And when you understand who you want to be, it actually brings confidence

to the room for everybody else.

And you're not trying to impress, you're not trying to convince, you're

not trying to win, you're not trying to beat other people, is what I mean.

And by win.

I think like in my company, I want to win.

I do, but not against my own employees.

Right?

I want us to win together as a team.

And when you understand that first, fantastic.

But then how do you communicate that?

Because also, I know a lot of people who are very kind, caring, loving

people, and they're so stressed and overwhelmed that then they come in and

they think they have to be curt and quick with their conversations and they

don't realize they're coming across as.

Assholes, really.

And they're not.

They're not, and they don't wanna be, but the way they're

communicating is actually doing that.

And so if I can just give them a few tools to reframe the way they

even start conversations, they're gonna not only come across the way

they want to, but they're going to be more effective with their teams.

They're going to be more badass leaders, right?

Dr. JJ Peterson: Yes.

Yeah, because that's really what it is.

This is not about, this is one of the things when I talk about

badass softie, it's not being an asshole or being like a hugger.

That's not what this is about.

Right?

Like some people are like, oh.

Oh, you know, so which time?

Sometimes I'm a jerk and sometimes and I'm like, no, no, no.

Being a badass does not mean being a jerk.

That's actually why I say, call it badass softie.

You can be a badass.

You can work hard, you can be driven.

And in fact, there are times, even with my own family, I have

to say, Hey guys, this week.

I'm not gonna be able to show up to Boy Scouts.

I'm not gonna be able to show up to this.

'cause we're in a mode that I have to be head down and driven.

But they know why, because it's aligned with our family values and where we're

headed and actually communicate that.

And then maybe the next week I take some time with them.

It's not really a balance.

It's like when do you be like, you have to be always both soft and driven.

And the reality is, I think it's a more of a dance.

Than it is a balance.

Like you have to learn how to figure out when are those moments that

I push in and we're all gonna be together a little bit more ambitious?

And then when are those moments that we need to care a little bit more for

each other and give space and grace?

And both of those happen in tandem.

They're not isolated.

And so it's kind of learning to do that with a dance.

And then even in those moments, again, I think more importantly, it's when you're

being driven and when you're being more.

Kind and kind of holding things loosely.

It's how you're communicating that because if, even if you can be driven, driven,

driven, and then all of a sudden you're offering grace to somebody in the team

that maybe somebody else doesn't feel like they deserve grace in that moment, well.

That can also be, if you're too soft, that can also be detrimental to your team.

And so still, even in both contexts, being able to communicate clearly

why things are happening, what is the plan and the vision, and

invite people to be a part of it.

Not just respond, but be a part of the narrative.

I love all of that for so many reasons.

But first off, I love that you mentioned family and how you communicate as a

leader in the family, because leadership doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a

top exec in a Fortune, whatever company.

It can be at home.

It can be on the soccer pitch, it can be, you know, wherever you do stuff.

And even if you're a solopreneur with a va, you're a leader to that va, right?

Yeah, so it's like it doesn't matter how big you are, everybody is a leader

and this communication is relevant.

This style of communication, JJ, I think is relevant for everyone.

Everyone,

Dr. JJ Peterson: a hundred percent.

I mean, I am my I'll be not necessarily vulnerable, it's not

super vulnerable, but it's in the sense of, you know, my daughter is

getting ready for college and we are trying to figure out how to help her.

Instead of us saying like, you're getting up at this time, I'm going to wake you

up at this time every day and I'm gonna make you breakfast in this way every day.

You know, like we do with our 8-year-old, we have an 8-year-old and it's like I

wake him up in the morning, we make eggs, we have our morning routine, but the

older one, she's going off to college and we have to help her start being

able to be responsible for herself.

A lot of times that means she's staying up later than we want her to.

Now, I can either like have a conversation where I'm angry and bit

and like yelling at her for staying up too late because I know she's gonna

be late for school in the morning.

Or I can begin the con of understand of like, what does she want, not what

do I want for her, but what does she want and how do I help her align her

actions with what she wants and how do I position her staying up late?

As the problem that's getting in the way of what she wants.

She literally needs to graze her grades just a little bit in order

to get the right scholarship to go to the college she wants to go to.

Well, if she keeps showing up late for school and falling asleep in class,

she's gonna miss out on that scholarship.

She's not gonna be able to go to the college she wants to go to.

So instead of.

You need to get up, get up.

What are you doing?

Stand up late.

I have to, I could do that.

And there were times that I have, and there's still times that

I'm like, you're going to bed.

I don't care.

You know, because it's a little bit different with parents.

But if I really want her to get responsibility and in essence create

her own narrative, versus trying to live and satisfy my narrative for

her, I have to communicate differently than just saying, go to bed.

Go to bed, get up.

I have to say, what do you want?

What do you want?

Talk.

Let's talk about that.

All right.

Here's the problem I'm seeing.

Let's talk about a plan so that you can actually get what you

want by overcoming this problem.

Again, I love this and actually it's really reminded me of

a conversation I had with the leader at one point in my career where he

brought me in for a career review and.

I had gotten several promotions in quick succession, and he said to me, Deirdre,

you've gotten where you are because of your own drive results and ambition, but

to get to the next level, you now need to learn how to bring people along with you.

And that advice has stuck with me for so many years later.

And I'm curious, like, I think I've kind of figured this out, but for

people listening, JJ if they got that kind of advice and they're trying to

figure out, okay, I know I need to communicate a narrative and communicate.

The direction in a little bit differently, but if I've got a bunch of people, 50

people, a hundred people, 200 people, and I'm trying to bring all of them

along with me, how can I get inside their heads to know what is gonna motivate

them to be able to bring them along?

Dr. JJ Peterson: Yeah, so there's obviously, when you're talking to

individuals, you want to be able to identify those things, but you

may not know all the individuals.

But even in a room, you know, like I said, when I'm in a room of a thousand

marketers, what I'm looking for is the common narrative that they're all living.

So there may be a chiropractor in the room and a Fortune 500 company, and I

have to figure out what is the common story that they're all trying to live.

So when you're addressing.

50 people in the room, or five people in the room, or 500 people in the

room, you're really going, what is the common narrative for this group?

What a story can I, I invite all of them into.

Now when you meet one-on-one, that narrative is gonna be a

little more nuanced because it's directed more at that individual.

But we call it an umbrella.

Brand script.

It's really the high level what is the common narrative that they all have.

And so, you know, if you're talking about again, like we are going to have a new

system that is about project management.

We want everybody to get in line with this new project management system.

They have to learn it.

The reality is, if I come to the table to this and 50 people.

And I say, we have a new system that we need you to use.

I have just created a problem for them.

I've actually created a problem because they have to now work harder.

They have to change the way they've done things.

They're now like underneath there's some scrutiny maybe.

It feels like there is, I'm scrutinizing the way that

they've currently done things.

So there's, I'm essentially adding a problem to their plate.

But instead, even with those whole 50 people or the whole company that we're

implementing this whole new project system, if I start with a problem

that they're already feeling, now what I'm doing is bringing a solution.

Instead of putting a problem on their plate, I'm identifying a problem.

Then I'm offering a solution to solve a problem.

I know all of these people are feeling now, if it is a fake problem, this is

where you can get off a little bit.

If you're making up a problem to try to get people on board to try to manipulate

them to be on board they'll smell that.

It will go away quickly, so they won't follow you.

So it can't be, what you're not looking for is like, well,

let's just make up a problem.

It has to be something that everybody is feeling.

And the truth is, if you're a leader and you're bringing in

a project system that, helps.

You know, it helps.

Then there is a problem.

This is solving.

But if you're just doing it to get your way, then people will smell that.

That is the hero journey, right?

Like that you are becoming the hero.

And even worse, maybe you're becoming the villain if you're coming in and

just trying to power your way through.

'cause this is my preference.

This is what I want to do.

That's not great leadership.

You're not actually being a guide in that moment.

You're being the.

You're trying to be the hero of your own story and ultimately

you're becoming the villain.

But if there really is, if you're paying thousands of dollars for project

software, it's because there's a problem.

And so you have to identify the problem.

Don't make the software the problem, make the software the solution, start

with the problem the solution solves.

Oh, that makes so much sense.

And.

I can see how people will be just bought into that kind of strategic

narrative and communication then and you know what, like it's just gonna make

achieving the end goal so much easier.

But I'm curious with the clients that you've had JJ around this and the

leaders you've worked with and the companies you've gone into, in terms

of those leaders making that shift to where, to your point, you know,

they're not coming across as the hero.

They're actually shifting into the guide.

What kind of challenges in terms of identity do you see

these leaders going through?

Dr. JJ Peterson: It's hard to be a guide when you're insecure.

And I don't mean that as an attack, I mean.

When, I'll give an example.

So I teach at Vanderbilt University in the Master's of Marketing program.

Now, I've been doing that for about six years now.

So at this point, kind of, I know the routine, but I remember my first

couple years that I was teaching there when I would get new students.

I was really insecure.

One about the fact that I'm teaching at Vanderbilt, one of the most

prestigious schools in the United States.

And I was, you know, in my own brain, I'm like, do I belong here?

You know, like that was it.

Plus I hadn't been in the classroom for about.

10 years at that point, I had been teaching companies, but I'd never been

in classroom with college students.

So I'm like, are they even gonna like me?

All those things.

So when I would show up in the beginning, I would try to be impressive.

If I'm most honest, I would try to be impressive.

And so I would tell funny jokes and I would try to be kind of the

cool professor, like, grades don't matter, you know, that kind of stuff.

And I would.

Put on those kind of airs when I showed up in the room.

And the truth is, it meant that I didn't do as well in the teaching

and it meant that the students get, didn't get as much value.

That was my own insecurity that was showing up in that moment.

I was trying to impress them and I was trying to win in the classroom.

I wanted to get good reviews and I wanted them to like me, but instead

if I just show up and do my job the way I know I do with care.

It's not that I'm a jerk or anything, I show up with a lot of empathy, but

I'm also confident in my own authority.

That is how I serve people best.

And so I'll give another kind of example here.

A few years ago, I. Earlier in my StoryBrand career is I went to speak

for this company that does they're an investment company that they

buy companies that are on, like growing and then they headhunt.

A high-end executive and then put them in there and then exponentially

grow it and then sell it.

Now, when I say they headhunt high executives, some of the executives

who were in this room were like the founder of Shutterfly and the

president of Xerox and a VP of Disney.

And so it's like very high level.

People that kind of were looking for their, almost like their last chapter,

like their last 10 years of legacy.

And I go into this hotel and there's literally peacocks in the lobby.

Everything is gold.

I mean, it is like ornate.

And I'm there the night before and.

The owner of the company is walking me around and we keep bumping into

these different people and every one of 'em is sitting there going, well,

you know, I built my company on story.

I studied story.

I know story.

I hope this is good.

You know, one of 'em came up to me and said I want you to know this is the most

expensive room you're ever gonna be in.

And they were saying all those things to me.

Well, I did not sleep at all that night.

And the next morning I show up.

And right before I walk up on stage, they're literally introducing me and

one of the people from the company said I need you to know how much money we've

spent on getting all these people here and you here, and I need this to deliver.

And I start to get ready to go.

I have the microphone and my hand is shaking.

I, which doesn't happen for me a lot, but I was shaking.

I felt sick to my stomach.

I hadn't really slept.

And I had about 30 seconds to figure out how I was gonna show up on that stage.

And I had to remind myself that all of these people were more successful than I.

They were richer than I. They had built bigger companies than I had.

But when it came to.

Walking them through the power of story and marketing in their company.

I was the smartest person in the room and I had the most experience and I had

put in the most preparation, and I had put in the hours getting ready for that.

And if I showed up on stage and I got up on that microphone and I said,

wow, I'm really nervous, you guys, this is a crazy, intimidating room.

That doesn't, not only, it doesn't serve me, but it doesn't serve them

because they did really like show up.

They've spent a lot of money.

They're taking time away from their company to be here for two days.

And if I show up like that, now they have to feel like they need to take care of me.

Right.

They have to be like, oh, he's nervous.

We should make him feel better.

So instead of actually being able to focus on themselves, A, I've either

lost trust or B, they now become the person who takes care of me.

So I had to show up and I did exactly what I did.

What I mentioned earlier is I stepped up there on the stage and I said, how many of

you want to grow your company this year?

Great.

Most of you are wasting thousands of dollars on maybe millions of dollars on

marketing, and you don't even know it.

I started with the story, not my own humanity or my own vulnerability

or anything, and it allowed me to settle in and it ended up being

a hugely successful workshop.

I ended up getting more clients after that, but.

That's what I mean by the insecurity.

When you show up, not with arrogance, but with, you show up with confidence

in that you actually care about the people who are in the room and you've

put the, in the effort and the time and you have the experience to lead them.

Be confident in that.

You know, if Luke Skywalker and Star Wars comes up to Yoda after

a little bit of training and goes, are you sure that the force works?

And Yoda's like, you know what?

I don't know.

I don't know what I'm doing.

I don't know what's I'm just as insecure as you are.

That's not a good story.

That's not a good guide.

Luke is not served by that as well.

He's gotta go figure out what to do on his own now.

But when you show up with confidence, and so that's the part I think.

When you ask, going back to your actual question of the idea of like what are

some of the pitfalls or things that hurdles that people run into in this.

It's that when you actually shrink in your own authority and confidence.

Not only is that not good for you, but it's not good for the people you serve.

And you don't need to show up with arrogance or false confidence.

But understand if you really do care, A, a good guide really has two

qualities, empathy and authority.

So empathy is, I understand what you're going through and I care

about you because I've been there.

And the second piece is I have a path forward.

I've done this before.

I know what I'm doing.

And if you don't know what you're doing in that moment.

You can be honest, but you wanna surround yourself with people who

have helped you find a way forward.

So you don't have to say, I figured it out, I've done it.

But you can say, our team has come together and we found a way forward.

So you, when you shrink in your own, when you become insecure, remember it

doesn't just not serve you, it doesn't serve the people that you are leading.

Oh, that's powerful, jj.

Yeah, I feel that like I really can feel that.

And even when you're talking about that as well, I can see me having done

that sometimes where I've shrunk and I've made myself the hero and I'm like.

Oh yeah, but I'm totally stealing those two sentences for everything

that I opened going forward.

Thank you, jj.

Dr. JJ Peterson: Yeah, and let's just close with one more thing.

I actually relearned this again with Taylor Swift.

So Taylor Swift documentary.

I was watching it before Christmas because I had some extra time and

I'm like, I'm gonna watch this.

And there was a very powerful moment that I took away.

There was many, but there was a moment where she was in London, she was getting

ready to do a concert and right before this had happened, there was a dance class

of young girls that was using her music that had gotten attacked with a knife.

A guy a person came, un attacker, came in with a knife, and girls were injured

and even killed, and she met with all the families right before her concert.

And they didn't have the cameras in there.

It wasn't this moment of like taking advantage of them or anything.

But she came out and she was in tears and she was really kind of emotionally

struggling obviously, but she said something to the effect of people that

are in this room that are out there.

Paid for the night of their life, and they don't need to be worried about me

that in this moment, like she shared her feelings with her family and with

her boyfriend and with her close friend.

So it wasn't that she was like bottling everything down, but in that

moment she didn't wanna walk on stage in tears and have everybody going,

oh no Taylor, we love you, da da.

You know?

No, she was showing up.

As the best performer and in control of that three hours so that everybody

else could relax and enjoy the moment.

And there's a piece of that in there for me in that too, is that there it's not

about not being vulnerable with my team.

I'm very vulnerable with my team, however.

When it comes to, say, a project or work like personal, we

can be vulnerable as we want.

But when it comes to a work project, my job is to basically show up in a way that

allows them to just enter into the story instead of worrying about my story, right?

Instead of going, oh, JJ didn't sleep last night, is he gonna be okay?

It's like.

Maybe I didn't sleep last night, but that's not their problem.

That's actually not their problem, and that's not something I

need to put on them to carry.

I need to show up with my strength and my confidence and my authority,

my experience to help lead the way.

As a human, we can be as vulnerable as we want, but in the leadership context

of a project or a movement or a business, you show up with confidence because that

actually is what serves your people best.

Ugh.

And I'm like, I can see, and just picture what the ripple effect

will be for teams when they come into this and step into this.

And even hearing that, like what you've just said there, if you just took that

and shared that with leaders and their teams, it's like, that's how I wanna be.

You know?

It's like I wanna grow up to be like that.

Yeah.

Dr. JJ Peterson: A hundred percent.

Yeah.

Cool.

Jj, oh my gosh, it's just been such a pleasure having you on the show again.

I've really enjoyed this conversation.

I'm nearly teary after hearing this Swiftie story too, by the way.

I'm like, what?

Thank you for that.

So tell me where can people find you if they wanna reach out to you

about this next chapter or any of the things that you have coming up?

Dr. JJ Peterson: Yeah.

Badass Softy podcast is really the best way.

Like, if you enjoyed conversation like this is, I have a lot

of conversations like this.

I do some solo episodes and then also interview other leaders who

I feel like are doing this well.

And so, yeah, badass Softy podcast is really the best place to go.

And before we wrap up, I mentioned something earlier about Joy.

And this is, I just kind of wanna close it with this.

One of the other aspects that I work with leaders on is this idea of practicing joy.

And it started from a place of me just wanting to have more fun in work,

to be very honest of where I was.

Like, you know, I worked really hard for this career, and

then why now is it not fun?

And.

I wanted to have more fun, but then I started actually doing a lot more

research about joy and the power of joy and the research shows there.

There was a study by Harvard Center of Health and Happiness that showed that.

When you experience joy, it actually activates the reward and

resilience centers of your brain.

And what that means is it doesn't just make us feel good.

It actually helps us recover faster from stress, grief, and uncertainty.

So it actually makes the hard work that where we go through the stress

and grief and uncertainty, it makes it.

We recover faster when we experience joy.

And then the University of Michigan did a study about how when you experience

regular moments of a joy, even just small ones, that you have lower

inflammation and higher immune responses like, so it actually changes the way

we recover from stress and changes to the way our body deals with sickness.

And what I'm talking about with joy is not just.

Like having fun and laughing.

The research shows that the way that you experience joy, that you

can experience it through awe.

Finding something that brings a little awe or whimsy.

The practice of gratitude, just being grateful.

Changes your body, changes the molecular structure of your body, which is insane.

Connection and relationship.

Movement creates joy, nature, positive anticipation.

Looking forward to something.

One that's really important for the work environment is finding flow.

Actually, when you find flow at work or in a hobby or anything activity,

you experience joy accomplishing something big, experiences joy.

So it's not just about whimsy, but when you as a leader show up to guide

people, it's not often, I think I thought of joy as the reward for the work.

Like when I work hard, then I can be happy.

Or when we accomplish something big, then I can be happy.

But what the research shows is that.

Joy isn't a reward for the work.

It actually is the work.

It's the thing that actually helps us move forward.

And the way I help people with that is with unreasonable hospitality and teaching

them to do that with their own teams.

But that's kind of the biggest piece for me in all of this, in a

world where reward disconnected than ever, you were asking about like,

generationally we're disconnected on Zoom and remote, we're disconnected.

You know, AI is taking a lot of the work that we used to, like, even

with a va, I used to do more with a va, a human, and now I actually

have some AI tools that help me out.

Right.

So we're, and I'm, this is not a bash on ai.

I love what these new tools are doing for us.

I think it can allow us to be more human.

But if we are living in this age of more disconnection and when we.

Intentionally show up as leaders with understanding who we are, confident in

who we are, communicate really well, and then invite and practice joy in our

own work and win the work of others.

I not only think that you are as a leader going to have a better experience, your

team is gonna have a better experience, and I don't think it's too farfetched

to say that we're actually making the world a better place when we do that.

Let's be the kind of leaders who actually leave a. Better workspace and better

legacy than the one that we came into.

Oh yeah.

And do you know what?

I think happiness and joy in life is one of the best success

strategies for high performance.

Dr. JJ Peterson: Yeah.

Yes, I completely agree.

And I think it's.

When you love what you do, it's, I hate that BS sentence about,

you know, when you love what you do, you never do a day's work.

But actually when you love what you do, you're having fun

and you're enjoying yourself.

And so yeah, work doesn't feel work.

Yeah.

Dr. JJ Peterson: And the research actually shows, it changes your

body, like it actually helps you recover from grief, stress.

It helps you be more creative, more productive.

Lowers your inflammation, gives you stronger immune responses.

Like it's kind of insane that you go, oh, when I'm happy, life is better.

Oh, interesting.

I guess that works.

You're stepping into my neuroscience world here now, all of that.

Yes.

Dr. JJ Peterson: I love it.

I love it.

Amazing.

Amazing.

Jj.

Honestly, it's been such a pleasure.

Thank you jj.

Dr. JJ Peterson: Thank you.

Okay.

Whew.

If you've been listening, oh, I have been doing that.

You are not alone.

And here's what I want you to take from this.

First, it's hard to be a guide when you're insecure, not because you're

weak, because insecurity makes you perform and performance makes your people

babysit your emotions instead of doing great work, serious tree problem there.

Second is don't make the change the problem.

If you walk into a meeting or a room going, we're rolling out a new system.

Congratulations.

You've literally just handed your team extra work and called it progress.

They're so totally gonna pick up on that and not buy into that bs.

So start with the pain they already feel and make the system the solution.

Third, an amazing guide has empathy and authority.

Empathy says, I get it.

Authority says, I've got a plan.

You need both, or you end up either steamrolling people or

tiptoeing around the truth.

Now, one thing to go and do today, not tomorrow, today, is before

your next team meeting rewrite what your opening is gonna be.

Start with what your people want, then name the problem that's in the

way, and then give them the plan.

That's it.

That alone is totally gonna change how they hear you.

And if you wanna go deeper with jj, go and check out his Badass Softie podcast.

I'm gonna link it in the show notes.

That's the fastest way to stay in his world and keep building this skill.

And if this episode hit home, do me a favor.

Send it to one founder friend who's carrying too much and

snapping at people that they love.

Nobody deserves that, including the person doing the snapping.

We're not doing that anymore.

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