Can We Still Have Good Sex When the World Feels Terrible? with Dr. Laurie Mintz

What happens to sexual desire when you’re stressed, exhausted, worried about money, overwhelmed by politics—or simply don’t feel turned on anymore by anything?

In this episode of Our Pandora’s Box, host Maria Eliades talks with sex psychologist, author, and University of Florida emerita professor Dr. Laurie Mintz about how women can cultivate pleasure and satisfying sex lives even when the world around them doesn’t exactly make it easy.

Dr. Mintz is the author of Becoming Cliterate and A Tired Woman’s Guide to Passionate Sex. She helped popularize the “orgasm gap” to describe the persistent disparity in orgasm rates between women and men during heterosexual sex. On this episode, Dr. Mintz explains why knowing more about women’s pleasure hasn’t necessarily changed what happens in the bedroom, and how deeply ingrained sexual scripts still shape what we think “real sex” is supposed to look like.

Maria and Dr. Mintz also talk about responsive desire versus spontaneous desire and why not feeling turned on constantly doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve lost your sex drive. Sometimes desire comes after sexual activity begins rather than before it—and understanding that can completely change how we think about libido in long-term relationships. Maria and Dr. Mintz also discuss the Cornell 7 case.

Together, they discuss:

• How stress, political anxiety, economic worries, depression, and exhaustion can affect sexual desire
• The difference between responsive and spontaneous desire
• Why losing spontaneous desire doesn’t necessarily mean something is wrong in your relationship
• The orgasm gap and why heterosexual sexual scripts still prioritize penetration and male pleasure
• Why the clitoris—and understanding female sexual anatomy—matters for orgasm and sexual satisfaction
• What to do when a doctor dismisses sexual pain, pelvic pain, perimenopause symptoms, or other sexual health concerns
• When pelvic floor physical therapy, sexual medicine, or sex therapy may help
• How pregnancy, lactation, parenting, and exhaustion can affect postpartum sexuality
• Why our sexual preferences can change over the course of our lives
• When some women report having their best sex
• What male partners can do to help create better sex for women
• How vibrators, communication, mindfulness, and expanding your definition of sex can increase pleasure
• Why making room for pleasure can matter even—and perhaps especially—during frightening or politically difficult times

Content note: This episode includes discussion of rape, sexual assault, rape culture, and sexual violence.

About Dr. Laurie Mintz

Dr. Laurie Mintz is a psychologist, sex therapist, author, speaker, and Professor Emerita of Psychology at the University of Florida. She is the author of Becoming Cliterate: Why Orgasm Equality Matters—and How to Get It and A Tired Woman’s Guide to Passionate Sex. Her forthcoming book, Pursue Your Pleasure (June 8, 2027), explores how to use self discovery and communication to live your most erotic life both in and out of the bedroom.

Our Pandora’s Box is a Pentelic Productions podcast hosted, created, produced, and edited by Maria Eliades. Subscribe to the Our Pandora's Box Substack for episode resources and to continue the conversation.

According to the National Sexual Violence Research Center, one in five women have

experienced rape in their lifetimes.

One in four female undergrads have been sexually assaulted at 33 of the US's major

universities in a study, including Stanford, Harvard, UCLA, the University of Iowa,

and Cornell. And only 2 to 10% of rapes that are reported are fake.

This episode was supposed to be just about sexual pleasure.

But with the trial of the Cornell Seven in our midst right now, I found it

impossible to ignore this issue when talking about sex.

I was gonna frame this conversation in terms of general pressures that women face

right now that are the breaks in sex, as sex educator Emily Nagoski would say.

You know, all the political and economic factors that we're dealing with at the

moment that make it so hard to slip into our

erotic selves.

But this case has made talking about the prevalence of rape unavoidable, especially

when it comes to the environment that's made it permissible.

Women's actions are always scrutinized when we get sexually harassed, let alone

assaulted, including by ourselves, because we expect that other people will do that

to us, and that is happening right now.

What isn't being scrutinized are the actions of the perpetrators or the environment

that led them to think that typing in a group chat, "Free pussy" and "Shop still

open," let alone raping and drugging their fellow classmate, was acceptable.

I'm not just talking about the frat environment.

I'm talking about the environments that the perpetrators were raised in.

How did their parents and families raise them that when they came to that moment at

that frat and

on that group text, they thought that rape was okay?

What were they taught in their communities and schools?

You might say it wasn't the environments they were raised in, but social media and

general culture.

But I don't think that's the answer for why they thought it was okay to use their

fellow student like a warm sex doll.

My hope with the Cornell Seven case is that there will be real consequences for the

men that did this.

But I also hope that this case will lead us to examine as a country what we are

teaching our boys, not just about consent, but about boys' and men's role in

creating safe environments and about doing the right thing.

Because, you know, the thing is, I believe in the inherent goodness of men.

I believe they have a capacity for being just, for

being strong leaders in their families and communities, for being generous lovers

and friends.

I've known so many that have been that, and I believe that men have the capacity

also for being the partners that we need.

But I also know that men and women are capable of evil, of unspeakable cruelties, of

dehumanizing others, of violence.

I am profoundly disappointed and disgusted right now.

As a society, we should teach our boys better.

We are failing women and we are failing men when we allow rape culture to be the

status quo.

And we are failing because of what we teach and allow away as evidence at the

highest level in this country where men who have violated women and have used force

on others to get their way are in charge.

To all of

them, I say, "You're a human, not an animal.

And the difference between humans and animals is that we have reason, and we have

morals and ethics, and we do the right thing even when our instincts say that we

should do something that only benefits us, especially if it means using our own

power in order to subjugate others. So do better."

If you're new here, hi.

I'm Maria Eliades.

I'm the host of Our Pandora's Box and your disgruntled and angry millennial elder

sister.

On this show, we tackle some of the biggest issues going on right now with

conversations with experts with curiosity and hope, even in the darkest of times.

I've been thinking about this episode's particular topic a lot.

For a while now, it's felt impossible to cultivate eroticism in this environment.

But I think pleasure is essential to ourselves as whole human beings,

as does my guest, Dr. Laurie Mintz. Dr.

Mintz is a sex psychologist, author, therapist, and former professor whose life

mission has been to help people have more sexually fulfilling lives.

She popularized the phrase, "orgasm gap," so thank you, Dr.

Mintz, for doing that, and she's published two books with one more along the way.

If you wanna learn how to have better sex, especially in this environment, if you

wanna learn about different types of desire, and if you wanna learn about what to do

if you've lost your libido, then this episode is for you.

On that note, let's get into it.

Dr.

Laurie Mintz, I am so excited to have you today on Our Pandora's Box to have this

conversation about cultivating an erotic life. So welcome.

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

So I always start off the podcast by asking my guests, how they would describe

themselves in their 20s. But I'm also gonna add on for you

the question of how would you describe yourself in your 20s, and what do you wish

you knew then about sex and desire?

Oh, what a fabulous question. it's so funny that you ask about my 20s.

I was literally...

I'm 66, and I was literally just texting with my college friends trying to arrange a

party for our college reunion.

So I was literally just texting with people who knew me in my 20s.

I would say I was very similar to how I am now, but just not as confident with it,

to be honest with you.

know, I still have very similar interests in terms of psychology, in terms of,

people, in terms of therapy, in terms of science and...

But I was just not, I mean, as many 20-year-olds are compared to our later selves, I

wasn't as sure of myself.

I was insecure, I would say, and sort of

anxious about who I was instead of like, "This is who I am.

Take it or leave it," kind of thing.

Do you remember a moment where you became more confident?

I think it, no, I don't think it was one moment at all.

I think it was just like a series of, um, moments, a series of connections with

others that I always think we grow best in relation.

You know, that whole idea like we have to be by ourselves to grow.

Sure, some of us grow alone, but we know from the research that most of us grow in

relation.

We get feedback. So I think it was that. I think it was some career successes.

I also think it was falling down and having some things that didn't go the way I

wanted them to go,

that I then picked myself up from.

But I'd say it's just been a gradual change over time. don't...

You're not really asking this question, but it makes me

really pause.

I remember at one point, I have two daughters, they're adults, they're not even in

their 20s, they're in their 30s,

Okay.

And I remember when one of them was 13 and I remember feeling like, "Oh my gosh, I

guess I'm really an adult."

And I was like, "Are you kidding me?

I have to have a 13-year-old daughter to feel like I'm an adult?" Like, it just, you

know, it's kind of a process that sneaks up on you, you know, becoming more

confident and more adult, basically.

I know you used to teach undergrads, speaking of, of younger people, at the

University of Florida.

What did you see when you were teaching your courses there that the students had as

concerns that surprised you?

And what did you see that actually gave you a lot of hope for them?

Well, I love teaching undergrads, you know.

Honestly, I taught undergrads and grad students.

And nothing against the grad students, but the undergrads were definitely more fun

for me.

they were

open to new information. They were curious about new information.

They were, like, having these a-ha moments about the world, about their identity,

about their place in the world, about maybe how they could make the world a better

place.

so I just loved teaching undergrads.

what surprised me was what led me to write my book, Becoming Cliterate.

When I was teaching the psychology of human sexuality, it was about,2015 I would

guess 'cause the book came out in 2017, and I discovered that the young women in the

class didn't know about their clitoris.

I was shocked. Shocked. Like, like they re-

existed?

Some of them didn't know it existed.

Okay.

Of knew it existed and had heard of it, but didn't make a connection to their lack

of attending to it being the reason they weren't having orgasms during

heterosexual sex. it was just like this dearth of knowledge

Well, I mean, science didn't, "discover it" until, what, sometime in the '90s as a

sexual organ?

I don't think

Honestly, no. Science discovered it... No, it was

Yeah.

No,

earlier. much earlier.

It

was discovered, it was discovered in, like, the 1700s, then the discovery was

buried,

it was rediscovered, then it was buried.

There's, like, been this whole history of discovery and burying.

But in terms of what you're thinking of, what you're thinking of is Dr.

Helen O'Connell, She was the first i- to use MRI technology to uncover the full,

organ basically.

was in the '90s.

And actually just, like, a month ago, the full extent of the clitoral nerves were

revealed for the first time, 30 years after those of the penis were revealed.

So we've known about it.

We buried it. We've known about it and buried it.

But there have been some big discoveries around it that have been popularized since

the '90s.

And then when we're talking about the full nerve endings and the full body of it,

what does that look like?

So people often think of the clitoris as just a little nub, the hood and the glans

that you can see on the vulva.

But the entire clitoris, it's analogous to the penis where, you know, they're the

same organs in embryo, right?

And it is this massive internal organ with an enormous amount of erectile tissue.

if you think of the clitoris as like this little circle, right, that you can see on

the vulva. But the whole thing, there's a buried part above it and below it.

It has kind of two legs that go out and some big bulbs that surround the vaginal

canal. So it's a massive internal organ with, it's chock-full of

erectile tissue.

And that behaves similarly to the penile erectile tissue or differently?

Exactly the same. An erection is an erection.

There was a really interesting study where women and men were asked to write about

what an orgasm felt like, And then the researchers took away the, um, any indication

of who wrote it, and then they gave these paragraphs to sexual, medicine physicians,

to sex therapists, and no one could describe the difference.

Everybody described a buildup of tension and a release of the tension.

So whether you have a penis or a clitoris, your blood in your erectile tissue in

either the penis or the clitoris gets engorged with blood.

The blood stays there, builds up to a point of intensity, and is then released with

a series of contractions of the pelvic floor muscles.

So you wrote that book in order to get women to understand how to have orgasms,

right? And to, to know their clitoris?

I wrote the book to close the orgasm gap, which is the consistent finding over 30

years of research that when cisgender women or women and men get it on, the women

are having fewer orgasms.

So I wanted to expose the cultural problem, say why we have it, help to close it,

and then importantly, to empower individual women to become familiar with their body

and become empowered to orgasm in their own bedrooms.

Do you find that what you put down in the book when you wrote it and what you've

taught today to your clients, to the students you had, has it changed or are there

the same gaps in knowledge?

It's interesting.

I think since I've written the book, more people have heard of the word orgasm

gap. I'm credited with popularizing that term.

I certainly wasn't the one who did the research.

I really have to give credit to the many researchers who've uncovered the problem.

and, what I would say now, because I've continued to teach and to give workshops, is

people have now heard the word orgasm gap.

Most women, I think many women know they have a clitoris.

They know it's their main sexual organ, but what hasn't changed is how people are

behaving in the bedroom.

It's like knowledge has not translated into behavior.

And I have a third book coming out in June 2027, so right around the corner,

It's called Pursue Your Pleasure, and its aim is to close that knowledge behavior

gap.

Hmm. So what's happening?

If, like, the knowledge is there, but the script isn't changing the bedroom.

there's a disconnect there it sounds like.

I think it's like this stuff's so

deeply ingrained in the very fabric of culture.

And sex education hasn't changed, right? We still don't have good sex education.

Porn hasn't changed.

Porn is still, showing women orgasming, if they orgasm at all, through penetration.

Movies hasn't changed.

So it's really only people who take a class, who follow certain people on social

media.

And even then, the script, as you called it, and that's what sexologist sciences-

scientists call it, the script of what we're supposed to do in the bedroom hasn't

changed either.

Hmm.

This is somewhat linked to the,thing that I wanted to talk about today, which is

about, diminished desire and about libido and eroticism in, in our lives right now,

where have all these scripts.

We also have an environment that feels particularly hostile to desire showing up in

it. There's a lot of economic

tension, political tension, not to mention the danger of having sex for heterosexual

women with 13 states having a near or total abortion ban.

So how is it possible to cultivate eroticism in a time like this?

Because I know you think it's essential, that libido is essential to

existing.

Look, there's people who don't have a good sex life, and they're still, have a okay,

good life. Maybe even they'd say a great life.

But what we know from the research, and I'm really big into looking at the research

and seeing what that says and seeing and translating it, the research really shows

that a good sex life correlates with life satisfaction, with self-esteem, with

relationship satisfaction.

So yeah, I think that cultivating a good sex life is a really essential part of

life and it's one we don't get schooled on or talked about enough, but, you know,

when someone has a sexual problem, it's devastating often.

Takes up a lot of brain space, a lot of energy space.

But I think your point is really accurate.

This is a really difficult point in history for a lot of reasons, and it's a really

difficult point in history for women, and for women to feel safe enough to be

sexual. We've got rape culture all around us.

You know, we're having this podcast right when the Cornell Seven is being talked

about and being exposed, not just the seven, the 50 some who did nothing.

You know, we have a sex offender in the White House.

I'm gonna get political here, you know?

That's

got rape-

does. Get

political.

Okay.

political

I mean, we have rape culture all around us,

and at the same time,we have fewer rights. We have lack of access to abortion.

There's more women who've been prosecuted for having an abortion than men who've

been prosecuted for the Epstein files.

Like, we live in a very, an environment right now that is really hostile to women.

And even if you're an individual woman who's not personally affected by this, say

you're a privileged woman past childbearing age, like, y- y- you cannot escape the

fact that this is happening around you.

And then take the people that it's really affecting, you know?

So we have this environment, as you've described even more so than I did, even more

graphically. So How do we keep it for ourselves when it is...

It's important, as you've said.

Yeah. Well, I think that you just, spoke the core of the issue,

that this is important for us.

Some people have said, and I agree with them, that pleasure is a political act.

If you can feel pleasure in your body when your body is a hated object, if you can

feel pleasure amidst the pain, like that is a rebellion.

That is a political act, and it doesn't mean you have to have sex with a man.

You can get yourself a vibrator and give yourself lots of orgasms. You can do both.

This is not mutually exclusive.

But I do think that pleasure is important to life and especially if you're a

political activist, it doesn't mean that you can't have time off for pleasure 'cause

that's gonna sustain and fuel you.

Yeah, I mean, if anything, as a political activist, you absolutely need the things

that sustain you and fuel you. You will burn out.

I mean, it's a common thing in nonprofits.

You will burn out if you do not take time for yourself.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

What about in this environment? I mean, there's different ways of desire, right?

There's responsive desire, there's spontaneous desire.

Can we talk about that a little bit?

Yeah. and that has been going on...that exists beyond politics, okay?

That exists just in general.

But the shame of it is people don't know about responsive desire.

So spontaneous desire is what's portrayed in the movies, right?

Along with many other falsehoods.

And it is when you see someone or something, you know, an object of desire or

something, and you're just immediately turned on and horny, and you wanna have sex.

And there's nothing wrong with that, and that is accurate, but it is a very male

model, and it is a model of one's youth, and especially early stage relationships.

Not just youth, an older person in a new relationship. When we're in a new

relationship, we have all these biochemical things going on in our body.

Some people say it's almost like OCD.

You can't stop thinking about the person, you can't get enough of them, you know,

constantly horny. And it's a great stage.

It's called the limerence phase, and it's, it's glorious.

But it only lasts six months to two years, and then those biochemicals just kind of

like, you know, they get cozy and they fade off, right?

And, like, picture this.

You picture that, like, stereotypical old couple sitting on a park bench holding

hands or taking a walk holding hands. No one goes, "Oh my God, that's so cool.

They're so horny all the time." No.

You know, they say, "Oh, how cute, how wonderful, how loving."

What that means is they are not still constantly horny in each other's presence, but

that doesn't mean they can't have great sex.

And how? They can do so

with responsive desire.

Responsive desire is the idea I want to have sex without being horny, but for a

variety of reasons.

There was another study where people were asked about why they had sex, and there

were 237 unique reasons people listed, and that researchers broke them into

emotional closeness, you know, physical pleasure.

And being horny was, like, number five on the list. It wasn't even number one.

So responsive desire is when you're like, "Oh, I'm interested in sex.

Maybe I know it'll be good when it gets going. I'll feel closer to my partner.

I'll sleep better," whatever it is.

And so then you have a sexual encounter, and the horniness comes after you're

touched. So you have sex to get horny rather than wait to be horny to have sex.

What if someone can't even get themselves to that point of the responsive

desire, of being in that situation?

Everything else crowds out that part of their life. What could they do?

I think they need to prioritize that part of their life.

That's a barrier to desire, and there's a million barriers.

Money worries, political worries, depression, anxiety.

There's a whole lot of reasons people have like this anti-desire thing.

But the first step is deciding this is important to them.

I mean, let's use the metaphor of the gym, 'cause it's an overused one because it

works.Most people don't wake up in the morning going, "I can't wait to hit the gym."

They go even when they feel like having an extra cup of coffee instead, or staying

in bed another half hour.

They go because they know that their life, their body, will feel better after.

So that they do it based on a reason, and it's the same with

this, of like reminding yourself of the benefits of sex.

Reminding yourself an orgasm feels good. It releases tension. You'll sleep better.

And using that reminder to motivate oneself to create a plan for sex, a plan for

pleasure.

And also maybe, depending what it is, addressing what's getting in their way.

If it is a stressor in the family that can be addressed, address it with therapy.

If it's depression, seek therapy. Seek medication.

Like, let's look at what's preventing it first and then decide how to deal with

that.

I'm sure you deal with this in your practice, and I know you address it in your

book, A Tired Woman's Guide to Sex.

If you have one of these clients who is going through that and you're like, "Okay,

there could be medical reasons why you're tired, you're not feeling this,"

and they've started going to doctors to figure it out, but the doctors are being

dismissive, how do you counsel and support someone through that?

Well, it depends. Like, what kind of dismissive are we saying?

Are we saying, "Your blood tests are normal"? That's,

For

that's

tests are normal, or for some of our listeners who are older, "Oh no, you're too

young to be in perimenopause, so this can't be what's being affected here."

Yeah, get a new doctor.

You know, this is part of the reason I stopped going to sex therapy conferences and

started going to sexual medicine conferences, even though I'm not a doctor.

So I can understand enough to say to a client, "I think you need a doctor who's got

more specialized training.

I think there is something medical going on, but they're not finding it.

Let me help you find a new doctor."

And before I say how to find a doctor for these things, let me tell you that the

average woman who has sexual pain, it takes

her 11 years to get the right diagnosis.

Holy cow.

It's way too long because very few doctors are trained in sexual pain, and that's a

big one that gets dismissed still. Relax, have a glass of wine. No.

Sexual pain is a medical issue.

I can break sexual pain down and tell you there's, five general causes.

But the bottom line is I cannot tell you how many clients have come to me for lack

of orgasm, and they've been to, like, 10 sex therapists who've done the same thing,

and no one has said, "Well, if these things aren't working, maybe there's something

medical." Or a woman who's been treated for sexual pain by a therapist who've never

sent her to a doctor when that's always the first step.

Or someone who's in perimenopause who's been told, "You're too young." Or someone

who's a cancer survivor being told, "You can't have vaginal estrogen," when a good,

like, 98% of cancer survivors can

have vaginal estrogen. I had a woman come to me.

She'd been in the hospital multiple times for UTIs and sepsis because her oncologist

refused vaginal estrogen.

So I said, "You need a new oncologist and a new gynecologist who work together who

are up on the latest research." So, that's what I tend to do, is I tend to help my

clients find good medical care.

And for women's sexual medicine and sexual health, the best place to go is the

International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health, I-S-S-W-S-H, ISSWSH.

For menopause, the North American Menopause Society, which is now just going by the

name Menopause Society. They have a find a provider link.

Now, anyone can list there, so what you're looking for specifically there is a

NAMS certified provider that they've gone through specialized menopause training,

which includes perimenopause.

And for our younger listeners who might be dealing with pelvic pain of any sort,

where would you recommend that they go?

And can I first say what are the general causes of pelvic pain, if that would be

okay? So pelvic pain or sexual pain has several different causes.

One is simply if it's sexual pain, penetration-related pain, it's having penetration

before you're aroused enough for it and not using lube.

My book, Becoming Cliterate, it doesn't have the word pain in it, and there was a

randomized clinical trial on it. The women who read it had less pain Why?

Because I empowered women that just because he's hard and ready doesn't mean he gets

to come in.

I've empowered women to use lube to make sure that they're aroused.

So that's, that's probably the easiest cause to address,

right?

And if,if you can use a sex toy and penetrate yourself during masturbation when

you're really aroused and use lube, but are having pain with a partner, that gives

you a hint that you might not be allowing yourself that arousal.

That's number one. Number two is a pelvic floor dysfunction.

Remember I said that orgasm is the blood flowing into the erectile tissue being

released with pelvic floor contractions.

A pelvic floor that is too tight is gonna be a problem, and it can cause pain.

And for that, the best is a pelvic floor physical therapist, and the great place to

find those are Herman and Wallace.

They have a find a provider link. Another cause of pain is anxiety.

The vagina is a muscle. Or trauma.

Like, I know when I'm really anxious, I don't even realize I'm doing it, but my

daughters will go, "Mom, your, your shoulders are by your ears." You know, and the

vagina does the same thing, right?

It clamps like a muscle.

So if you've had trauma or you're anxious, your vagina's gonna clamp and nothing

will get in.

And then a really, really big cause, and this is the one that is where this woman's

taking 11 years, is an undiagnosed medical issue.

There are many, many medical issues that can cause sexual pain, pelvic pain, and

very few doctors are trained at assessing and diagnosing this.

And then the fifth cause is a proliferation of nerve endings.

The best way I can explain this is a way that a colleague of mine who specializes in

sexual pain explained this.

Do you ever notice, if you get, a paper cut, right, or a bruise, and even after it's

healed, it's a little tender to touch.

So what happens is when we get hurt, we have this

army come to the surface of the skin that sensitizes the nerves and says, "Stay away

from here.

Stay away from here." Well, sometimes if there's some kind of an injury, that army

sticks around, and you just end up with this proliferation of sensitive nerve

endings.

And there are treatments for that too.

So the best place to start is either a pelvic floor physical therapist or a sexual

medicine physician, and a good one of those will refer you to the other, and a good

one of those, if they find absolutely nothing and determine it's anxiety or trauma,

will also refer you to a sex therapist, but they're not mutually exclusive, right?

So the woman who has vaginismus-related trauma, right?

Yes, the pelvic floor physical therapist will teach her to relax her pelvic floor

while she's inserting gradually larger and

larger, objects, okay?

So that you're pairing relaxation and insertion, but you also have to talk about the

root of the trauma, right?

If it was, especially if it was a sexual trauma, then go to a trauma-informed

therapist.

or a sexual medicine provider might provide her with some kind of creams and

lotions.

So, we're a team working together, sex therapists, pelvic floor physical therapists,

and sexual medicine providers, and a good team will work with one another.

That's important because, uh, in these issues, especially if it's taking someone a

while to be diagnosed with this, it's very intimate, it's very sensitive, it can be

a lot to keep going up to bat for yourself, and definitely very difficult within a

committed relationship if that's the environment in which it's happening.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes.

I'm wondering also, I have, this'll be interesting, a listener question.

Because we haven't touched

actually what happens with eroticism during and after pregnancy, because this is

also something that our, our listeners, face.

And I have a related question from one of our listeners, so I'll play that if you're

up

for

Sure. Sure, sure.

Although I will say if it's medical, I can't answer. But if it's general, yes.

It's

So let's-

I

promise you it's

Okay. Okay. Good. Good

Let's see.

Hi, I'm Sherri from Brooklyn, and I have a two-part question.

I had a baby about a year ago.

While my sex drive was pretty high shortly after, lately it's dropped as the

realities of full-time work and parenting have taken over.

I'm a single mom by choice, so I'm not married, but I do have some consistent

friends with benefits of all genders.

Lately, though, I've been canceling on them because I'm just not in the mood.

So in addition to this, I find I'm vastly preferring BDSM relationships where

intercourse is off the table and the focus is on particular kinks only.

here come the question

parts. Um, first is, how does postpartum time affect sexuality?

And I want to find intercourse more appealing again.

How can I find a way to access that or at least better drop into erotic connection

and space with my partners? Thank you.

Okay, great questions. There's a lot of layers to that.

So let me first break some of them down, and also let me address something that she

did not address. She's farther out of postpartum. I think she said, like, a year-

year.

I think she's about a out.

So I don't know if she's breastfeeding or not, or if she did breastfeed, but

something that, a lot of people don't talk about enough is called the genitourinary

syndrome of lactation.

So just like the genitourinary syndrome of menopause, you have all this decreased

estrogen. It makes your vagina dry.

It makes intercourse painful. So how do we treat that?

Right, not me, my gynecological colleagues, they prescribe

vaginal estrogen or vaginal DHEA or moisturizers, lube, or all of this, right?

That happens when you're lactating as well.

I actually have a pretty new grandson, and I told my daughter, "If you start going

to have intercourse when they say you can and it hurts, don't think this is normal.

It is the genitourinary syndrome of lactation.

I want you to call your doctor and get some vaginal estrogen."

So she didn't talk about that, but I want listeners to know about that.

And what she's saying is, Like, what I wanna say to her is like, "Of course you

don't have energy for sex."

Like, you're a single mom of a one-year-old.

That's absolutely, positively exhausting. And that is, that's what we were ...

like the stuff we were talking about earlier. It's like energy draining.

You're not gonna be, like, interested in

sex, but it's a little bit like my going to the gym explanation, because she sounds

like when she gets the energy to do it and not cancel, especially if she's doing

BDSM and her preferred activity, she has a good time.

So to that part of it, I would say, use that responsive desire.

Tell yourself, "I'm really feeling too tired.

I'm not spontaneously horny, but I know I'm gonna have a really good time when I get

there, so I'm gonna go." And then, this answer might surprise you.

I'd like to have a conversation with her, which is not possible right now, 'cause

you just played a recording and I'm answering the recording.

But my first question for her, if she was my client, would be, "So if you're

enjoying these non-penetrative activities, if you're enjoying these activities the

way they are, like, why do you wanna get back to the penetrative

ones? Like, help me understand why.

If something's working, you wanna get back to something else.

Like, I wanna understand that more before I can answer that.

You know, is it a certain type of intimacy she's missing?

Why is penetration not interesting? Is it painful?

Or maybe she's just getting to know her own body enough to know, like many women,

most women don't find penetration all that exciting sexually.

Like, I'm not saying it's not fun, I'm not saying it's not connecting.

So I'd wanna have more of a conversation around that one before I tell her how to

get back to it.

I wanna know more about why she wants to get back to it and why not just accept

what's, you know, what's fun now.

And she probably has a great answer, but since I can't talk to her, I can't tailor

my answer to her question.

Yeah. And I don't know what the answer, what her

answer would be to it, but say take your average client, I feel like there's no such

average, but say if someone said, "You know, I want penetrative intercourse again

because it makes me feel closer to my partners," or, "This is what I used to really

enjoy," what would you say to that?

If it was it makes me feel closer to my partners, I'd say, "Okay, tell me about

that.

You know, and is your partner really wanting this?" And, you know, and if she said,

"Yes, he really does, and I really want this," I'd say, "Well, what's getting in

your way?" Like, if it was pain, we'd need to address the pain, and a big portion of

the time it's gonna be that, right?

And then I, I'd also say why not pair what's enjoyable with penetration, you know?

It's not either or, it can be and both,

Yeah

I mean, I don't quite understand that for her, and I want to. If it was just

because she wants to enjoy what she used to enjoy, but she's enjoying something else

now, I'd say, you know, "I used to like shrimp, and then I had a bad shrimp, and I

got nauseous and now I can't eat shrimp, and I'm not forcing myself to do it.

I'm just accepting where I am now.

Maybe I'll like shrimp again, but it's okay to not like it for a while." Like, I'd

also want some acceptance going on, too.

Because I think we have, along with these scripts of the expectation that we'll

enjoy the same things for our whole lives, and perhaps that isn't realistic.

Not at all.

Not at all.

And in fact, there's a great book called Magnificent Sex by Peggy Kleinpetz.

Peggy is a brilliant researcher from Canada, and Peggy got really sick of people

studying people with sexual problems.

And she said, "I wanna study people who have great sex."

Love it.

So she did all these interviews of people who identified as having magnificent sex.

And most ... You're gonna just fall off your chair, I think.

The most magnificent sex started at around age 50.

That gives me so much hope.

That's

Yes!

exciting. If the most, the best sex is at, starting at 50,

Yeah, for women especially.

Why? Because they were n't following these scripts.

They were okay with saying, "This is what I like.

This is what I don't like." They knew sex was bigger than penetration.

But I always tell women, you don't have to wait till you're 50.

Like, you can use all those lessons today.

Yeah, it's...

Again, I'm like getting stuck on the scripts right now because I think there's just

so much out there of telling us how sex should look like, how it should feel like,

and we're all so different that it can be all of these different things.

And especially, you know, you brought up women who have pelvic pain, and something

that people learn when they have issues with penetration because it's

suddenly painful, is looking at, well, what else is on the sexual menu?

Right.

And for the, those listeners who don't know this, the word sexual scripts is, like,

in the, the sex literature, and what it often refers to is the way we're told sex

should be in the movies.

Foreplay just to get her ready for penetration, penetration, male orgasm, idealized

female orgasm, sex over.

And it's a very male-oriented script. Even the words, right?

Using sex and intercourse as if they're one in the same, using foreplay for, ah,

whatever comes before it.

You know, and that's a real over-linguistic reflection and perpetuation of our

overvaluing of male pleasure.

If we overvalue female pleasure the way we overvalue male pleasure, we would call

foreplay sex and intercourse post-play.

Now, I'm not suggesting we do that, but I am suggesting that the whole menu is sex,

and then there's specific acts within them.

And while we're at it, let's stop calling our entire genitals a vagina, because we

are linguistically erasing the part of ourselves that gives us the most pleasure and

calling our genitals by the part that's most useful to men rather than women

themselves.

100%. Language matters.

Yeah, very much so. Very much so.

Very much matters.

I'm wondering, since we are, we are talking a lot about, cisgendered women who are

heterosexual, what do you think that men who have sex with those women need to know

in order for there to be eroticism in their shared lives?

Ask. Say these words, okay? "Your pleasure is just as important to me

as mine. I'd like to know what is going to make you feel the most pleasure.

I'd like to know what you need for orgasm." Ask, because every woman is different.

And also, don't be threatened by vibrators. Here's the deal with vibrators.

They are not a dick substitute. They are not addictive. They are not a partner.

They don't kiss, they don't cuddle, they don't say I love you.

They don't do anything except stimulate the genitals in a way that genitals find

really stimulating.

We have special receptors on our genitals just for vibration, which is why they

work.

And there was a study of men who had never used a vibrator before, and they were

given one to use twice a week for three months, and then they were interviewed and

they said, "Wow, it made sex more exciting because my partner was excited, and I

find that exciting. It made it more exciting because it was novel.

It made it more intimate because we had to talk about it." And guess what?

When they caught the vicarious vibrations, like the feeling of vibrations, they're

like, "Wow, that feels good." Of course it does, because penises and clitorises are,

are twin organs, you know? They have the same receptors.

That's why we're starting to use vibrators for erectile dysfunction treatment.

So a vibrator is your friend, your ally in the bedroom, not your threat.

I'm wondering what else you think that women actually need to know about themselves

in order to enjoy sex.

Well, first we've covered a lot, but the other thing I would talk about is

absorption or mindfulness.

Like it is impossible to have an orgasm, it's impossible to have pleasure if you're

up in your head worrying, "How do I look? How do I smell?

You know, are they having fun? Oops, I forgot that

email to return."

And that's just so common for women.

And the antidote for that is learning mindfulness in daily life through meditation,

through yoga. And what is mindfulness?

It is when your mind wanders, and it does, that's what our minds do, bring it back

to sensation without telling yourself a story, without getting stuck on it, and

practicing that in daily life.

The next time you're brushing your teeth, really focus on the smell, the taste, the

sensations.

And when your mind wanders, bring it back to sensation over and over again, and then

practice that in the bedroom.

You've had so many wonderful recommendations throughout our interview,

So glad

so many.

But I always close out by asking my guest what else they think, in this case, what

do you recommend that women either read, watch, listen to, or do to cultivate their

erotic

lives?

Well, I'm gonna not go with my own book

but people

or...

anyway. They're very

good

But yes,

thank you. I, I highly recommend them.

one, when it comes out in June.

What I'm gonna recommend is related to what's in this book.

It's called Pursue Your Pleasure, and it's available now for pre-order.

And it's not just sex self-help.

There's erotic fiction and erotica woven throughout.

Real-life erotic stories.

And why I include that is it makes it more fun to read, and there's a lot of

research that women are very turned on by reading.

That's why, erotic fiction and smut are having their day.

That's why the apps like Quinn, which give audio erotica, are having their day.

It's almost impossible not to become aroused reading or listening to erotica, and

you can find things in

that genre that are not,anti-women, that are not violent. So I'd say have some fun.

Read and listen to some erotica.

Awesome. Well, Dr. Mintz, thank you so much for coming on.

I really appreciated this whole conversation, and I think it'll be very helpful to

the listeners.

I'm so glad. Thank you for having me. I appreciate your work

My pleasure.

I hope you all got some ideas about how to create some space for eroticism in your

life through our conversation.

But I also hope that this episode made you feel like you're not alone.

To me, sexual pleasure is sacred.

It's a bodily ecstasy that we get to share and co-create with others, but also that

we get to create for ourselves.

I hope you know now that having challenges with your sex life is normal, but pain is

not.

So be kind to yourself and be open to discovering or rediscovering what good

pleasure means for you. And thank you again for listening to this episode.

If you like what you heard, let us know.

Rate and leave a comment about Our Pandora's Box on your favorite podcast platform

and share it with your friends.

Our Pandora's Box is a Pentelic Productions podcast that was created, hosted,

produced, and edited by yours truly, Maria Eliades.

Remember to stay hopeful and stay curious.

I'll see you soon on the next Our Pandora's Box.