No matter what time of year it is, it’s always worth checking in with a big question:

Am I really charging what I’m worth?

That’s why I’m bringing back this standout conversation with John Ray—business advisor, pricing strategist, and author of The Generosity Mindset. John breaks down the emotional side of pricing, how generosity and confidence go hand-in-hand, and why most of us are selling ourselves short—sometimes without even realizing it.

If you’re a coach, consultant, or service-based business owner who struggles with pricing, value conversations, or feeling awkward about “selling,” this episode will change the way you think—and charge—for your work.

Let’s revisit this insightful episode with John Ray.

Most people undercharge not because they’re greedy, but because they underestimate their true value.

I had such an eye-opening conversation with John Ray—business advisor, pricing strategist, and author of The Generosity Mindset. We talked about why pricing is way more emotional than most people admit, and how confidence, perceived value, and intentional generosity all shape the way your business grows. John breaks down the common pricing traps entrepreneurs fall into (like hourly billing or selling from your own wallet), and how asking better questions can shift everything about how you show up and get paid.

Whether you are a coach, consultant, or creative service provider, this episode will make you think differently about how you price your work and position your value. John's generous insights (true to his brand!) help you feel more confident charging what you're worth—and building relationships that actually last.

Highlights:

1. Why your clients usually see more value in you than you see in yourself.
2. How generosity, when done with intention, leads to better pricing and deeper trust.
3. A new way to think about pricing based on transformation, not time.
4. What it really means to have a “value conversation” with clients.
5. Simple mindset shifts that make selling feel less awkward and more authentic.

Connect with John:

Website: https://www.johnray.co/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnray1/

Podcast: https://www.johnray.co/podcast-price-and-value-journey

In appreciation for being here, I have some gifts for you:

A LinkedIn Checklist for setting up your fully optimized Profile:

An opportunity to test drive the Follow Up system I recommend by checking this presentation page - you won’t regret it.

AND … Don’t forget to connect with me on LinkedIn and be eligible for my complimentary LinkedIn profile audit – I do one each month for a lucky listener!

Connect with me:

http://JanicePorter.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/janiceporter/

https://www.facebook.com/janiceporter1

https://www.instagram.com/socjanice/

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John, Hello everyone, and welcome back to

relationships rule, where we explore how authentic human

connection is the key in thriving business. Today's guest

John Ray is someone whose work truly resonates with my own core

belief that relationships come first. John is a pricing

strategist, a business advisor and author of this amazing book,

The generosity mindset. He's also the host of the price and

value Journey podcast on which I was a guest last week and had so

much fun. In this episode, we're going to look at how generosity,

when it's sincere and strategic, can be a powerful force for

building trust, creating impact and growing a sustainable

service based business. Whether you're a solo consultant, coach

or small firm professional, I think you're going to love what

we're talking about today. So welcome to the show.

John Janice, it's a pleasure. Thank you so much for

having me. Thanks also for coming on my show, you were

fantastic, wow.

Well, it was fun, and I really enjoyed it. I came

off that interview on a high because you're a great

interviewer, and I learned in your book that you like whatever

his name was, Ken. Was it the guy that bought the Remington

company? You bought the company and became a podcast host,

right?

You know, loved it. So much about the company, yeah,

it's kind of my story on podcasting, right?

And you but I thought I was pretty proud of

300 episodes. You've done? How many 100 episodes? A couple of

1000, I think,

well, I've, I've done as a host, I've done around 1200

or so. I don't know the exact number, but it's around 1200 or

so. But now, when you get to 300 episodes, you're a champion. So

congratulations on that.

Oh yeah, no, I wasn't looking for that. I was

just pretty impressed with what you do, and you did such a great

job as well. Okay, I'd like to dig into this book, because I

really enjoyed reading it. And I think it's, it's, there's a lot

of lessons in it for small business owners and

entrepreneurs that that I was reading, going, Oh yeah, that

makes so much sense. And I also, I think what made it easy for

me, and what I loved reading were the stories. I love the

stories. And you know, that's the whole thing, right? If

people can, can identify it with the stories, then it sinks in a

little bit better. So first of all, I think you were in

corporate, right? For many, many years, yes, yes, as most of us

were. And then leave corporate and and some of us thrive, and

some of us struggle for a while. And I had a guest on my show

actually just went live today. Yes, today, yesterday, David

Shriner con and he talks about corporate refugees and how he

helps them succeed in business. And so, you know, a lot of us

are corporate refugees and and trying to figure it out. So you

must have figured it out early, if you then turn to helping

other service providers. So what? What was it for you? Did

you know when you left corporate this is what you were going to

do? Or did you have a little struggle a long way.

Oh, thank you for giving me so much credit, like I

knew what I was doing. I'm so grateful for that. I'm hiring

you as my PR person. Okay, no, no, of course not. You know, I

had my struggles and and, I mean, I had, you know, there was

a lot, like a lot of people, that are in corporate, there was

a lot that I was perfectly suited to do, and I've always

had a mindset around relationships and the importance

of relationships, but that becomes a lot sharper for you

when you're out on your own, in your own business, and you're

having to, you know, is the old saying goes, eat what you kill.

You know, there's, there's that piece of it. And let me tell you

where my nose really got bloodied. It was, it was in

pricing, yeah. So, you know, I've got all the T shirts, I've

got all I've made all the mistakes. And here's what I

learned, is that what I saw is my own problems with this, and

what I also saw is my clients that had problems with pricing,

and that made me passionate about it. And I got really

passionate about it as I dug into it and realized there's not

a lot of places for a business owner to to solve that problem.

So if you for example, this is just one vignette the book,

small. Business for dummies. I hate the title, yeah, but, but

it's got 250 pages, and a grand total of four and a half of

those 250 pages is devoted to pricing. Wow, yes, says it all.

And it's that those four four pages are written at about

80,000 feet. I mean, there's not much with what's there. So the

point is, is that there's, like, no place to go, Yeah, and so

that's, that's what got me passionate about it. And I just

saw so many people struggling. And eventually, of course, as I

got into it, it ultimately led to the book,

yeah, I was just gonna say, when did you write

this book? Well, it

was released at the end of 2023,

okay, okay, so it was a covid project, possibly,

no, no, no. It was, you know what it was? Well, it

was kind of a covid project, you might say, in a way. You know, a

lot of us came out of covid saying all those things that we

think we need to do, that we boxes, we need to check. It's

really time to get get at it. And that was what this was for

me, is, hey, this is time to get at it. Sure.

Okay. So we met on LinkedIn, which I love, and

what attracted me to read further was the picture of your

book in the banner on LinkedIn, because I love the title, the

generosity mindset, a journey to business success by raising your

confidence value and prices. So let's start there, confidence

and value first, and then pricing. Okay? Because the

biggest aha for me was that value conversation. So can you

just sort of save with the big let's start with the big

picture. What does this mean to you and the generosity mindset?

And let's, let's just start there.

Yeah, sure. So it's a bit counter intuitive, is it

not? I mean that that generosity, that generosity

leads to better pricing. Yeah, yeah, right. And I guess that

that helps me dispense of one misconception right off the bat

is we're not talking about giving anything away, per se?

Well, yeah, sure, you can be strategic in the things that you

do for others, but what we're talking about here is getting

out of your own head and and serving others first and being

generous using a much broader definition of that word, look

out for others first. What? What are their needs, hopes, wants,

desires, fears that you can help them with, regardless of whether

that benefits you in the short run or not.

And, right? Yeah, yeah, totally agree.

Yeah, right. And if you're known as that person, and

if you follow this falsely, by the way, you will be that

person. Because the truth of the matter is, there's not a lot of

competition on the relationship Street.

It's strange, but true, right? Yes, right,

despite all your efforts, after three in her

podcast, the Janice that, you know, there's just not a lot of

people that really do it. No, there's a lot of people that say

they're do it. But if you really do it, you're known for being a

connector. You're known for being a person that looks out

for other people. And what that does is it brings people back to

you. The universe wants to help you,

reciprocity, right? The Law

of Reciprocity? Yeah, exactly.

And it's funny, because, as you know, I'm

involved with a greeting card company that has been part of my

world for 16 years now, and that's just, we preach that all

the time. It's like, send out to give. Don't send out to get

because you send out to give, you don't know the universe will

come back 1010, fold, and it won't necessarily be from that

same person. So that's the philosophy that I've, I've sort

of looked at for free, or actually not looked at but, but

walk that walk for this many years. So in the in the first

part of your book, and when you're talking about value, the

value that that you have, the sorry, that your value for for

your what you do, and for who you are. It's not necessarily

the same as how you're perceived. It's perceived value.

And that's huge, because I realized when I was reading this

that sometimes when I'm talking to a prospect, and I'll admit

it, I've been doing this for a long time, but there are times

when you go, oops, I shouldn't have. In that, or I did it the

wrong way, or whatever is never perfect. And when it comes to

talking about, you know, yourself, or about getting

business and or talking those, you know, pricing, all of that

stuff, we forget that it who cares about me? It's what they

see and what they want to have happen. And if I don't as the if

they're my prospect and I don't understand that, then I'm not

going to get anywhere, and I'm not going to satisfy them. So

how do you, how do you can you teach that like or is it innate?

I mean, that's the thing.

Well, for some people, it is innate, but here's here's

what we've and you're a teacher, so you'll get this immediately.

We are taught in a way as we're coming up that works against us.

It teaches us skills and it teaches us whatever craft we

have, but we are taught we're supposed to have the right

answer. We're not taught how to ask questions, right? We're

taught to give answers. And the idea here is to get skilled in

asking questions. Bingo, to be use the word you use a lot to be

curious, to ask questions, to learn where people's heads are,

and not just ask a question, but follow up on that question,

right? And so that's the skill we have to develop, and that is,

yeah, I think it is innate for some people, but I think for a

lot of us who are particularly in the professional services

business, where we've got a particular expertise that we're

drilled on, and we've done the work for years, and we know the

answers. For a lot of people, we're just used to spouting

those out. And what I'm suggesting is to pump the

brakes, and let's get into the head of our clients. And what we

will find if we do that is we will find that they see value in

us, that we don't see ourselves.

And that is okay say that Anne, they see value in

us, that we don't see ourselves, correct, correct. So give me an

example of that, please. Yeah.

It's huge, yeah. So for example, when we start

asking questions like, well, let me tell you a story. Maybe

that's a way to get at this. So, yeah, so I was with a client.

This may be in the book. I can't remember I put this in the book

or not, but I was with a client who I had been referred to. And

he's going on and on about all the great things that are going

on in his business. And, you know, after a while, I'm

thinking, I marked this page. Oh, you did. Okay, good. Yeah,

I'm glad that's in there. Yeah, he went on and on about how

wonderful everything was, and I'm thinking, why did I get

referred to this person? Right? What's the problem here? Well,

his spouse came in the room, and we did the introductions, and

when she found out who I was, she was like, Oh my gosh, thank

you so much for being here. Like we need you so badly. And she

just proceeded to, like, the truth blew in the room. I mean,

right? And so the the his problem was not just with the

business and all the things that I found out ultimately in the

conversation, his problem was the spouse. She wasn't happy.

And so I wasn't there just to solve his business problems or

walk him through that. I was there to help a relationship

that was frayed because of this business. Yeah. Wow. And so now,

when you start talking about that, that value is enormous.

Yes, I hear and you see, if we don't ask the question,

questions, like, in a discovery call with a client, if we're not

asking questions like, well, you know, how does your spouse feel

about all this? See, then we don't find these things out,

yeah, and we don't find out where clients see value, and

what we do if we get there, what we'll see is they see much, much

more value than we see ourselves, and because all we're

looking at is the job, right, right? That uses our skills, not

the outcome. Problems that come out of the transformation that

we bring

and in what you just described is having the the

skill as well. I have to call it a skill of being a really,

really good listener. We know we have to know how to ask the

right questions, which takes curiosity, I believe that we

have to do that. And then it's about asking, and then it's

about listening, and really listening. And I already today

heard you say a couple of things about me that, and we don't know

each other that well. We've had maybe three conversations, but

you have come back to me with I know you're curious person,

Janice, so you've done your homework, and you know I'm a

teacher, and you know you've said these things to me that

make me notice that you've paid attention. So those things are

important in having that conversation, to think he

understands me. He knows where I'm coming from. And so I think

the questions and the listening skills are super huge. So how do

you then show that you well, because you go from the value

conversation where they spill their beans here, and in this

example you've given and now you've got to bring it around to

how you can help them that will not just help the business, but

everything else. So is that in the same conversation? Is it?

Does money get talked about in that conversation?

Yeah, that's a great question. So it depends on the

client. What I would say, as a general proposition is your

ability to price is either constrained or enabled by the

depth of the value conversation that you're willing to have with

a client. And sometimes that value conversation is a couple

of conversations, maybe even more, that you have over time.

If it's a client, a current client, you're always having a

value conversation, I think, is it's ongoing. Is, you know,

because you're checking in to see where the client sees value

in the whatever transformation you're helping to enable. So

that's, I think, it really depends on your willingness to

have the conversation. But then, of course, some clients are

impatient, right? They want to get to what the bottom line is,

what the pricing is, and that kind of thing. And you can be

herded into that because you kind of want to get there too.

You want to start talking about what the scope is and all that

kind of stuff. So it really there's some conversational

muscle that we have to develop here, and it takes some

practice. This is why I call them. One reason I call my

podcast the price and value journey. It's a journey we're

learning these things, right?

Yes, true. True. Knowing when to speak price and

when to when is the right time or not. Sometimes, though, they

come in at the beginning, and you talk about this in the book

as well, and they say, So, how much do you How much do you

charge? And you don't even know them, and you know that, right?

So you have a great answer for that. I think you already used

it once. It depends, right?

Well, yeah. I mean, if I understand your your interest

in that, it here's the deal. All my clients are a little

different, and they have different needs and and

concerns, and we need to have a conversation about your

business, and first of all, even just to decide whether I'm the

right fit, because I may not be the right fit, yeah, and if I'm

not, I'll find a good place to refer you, but it requires a

conversation and and, And so that I can help you understand,

like, what, what the best prescription is, I guess, for

your business, and then the pricing comes out of that.

So with the type of clients that you work with,

are some of them in businesses where they're kind of in and out

with clients, like maybe they do, you know, a few hours work

for them, and then they could be done. So because I feel

sometimes that the work that I do is is just a blip along the

way for these people to get them. You know, say looking

better and and using LinkedIn more effectively because they

don't really know how to use it. But I think sometimes it takes

more time, or could take more time than it does, because they

go as I have done in the past, where I've spent money on

something to learn a system or something, and then I don't go

back for the follow ups or the, you know, the the extra classes,

because I think I know what I'm doing and I don't. So how do you

think there's, there's opportunity there that, and how

would you go back to that opportunity so that you are

making those clients more long lasting clients, and therefore

better at being referral partners for you, possibly,

yeah, that's a great question. So there are some

service providers who have short term engagements, and part of

what I think you have to develop is staged work for clients. So

what I mean by that is and develop options around those

Okay, so that's another thing I talk about in the book, is just

the power of options. You know, using a good, better, best

model. I love that, yeah. So what you can do is you can take

that, that model of of your the journey you take clients through

and in your business, is a great example where you can do a

profile overhaul, but that only takes them so far on LinkedIn,

right? But there are some other things that you can do, which in

terms of helping them learn how to connect, build their network,

that kind of thing, right? And then there's, you know, how do

you know what to post? How do you do that? How you know? How

do you create content that's that's resonant, right? How do

you make comments that help build your network? I mean, so

this is something a lot deeper, right, we've just described a

good, better, best model right there. And so what you can

simply do is create a model that has these three options. And the

good is for folks that are just getting their sea legs on

LinkedIn, you might say or have ignored it for quite some time,

right? They're just not ready to take the full punch, right? But

what happens is, is that you've those good clients, the ones

that you've done that profile overhaul for, they're sitting

there waiting, yes, to the next level, whenever they're ready.

Yes. And given your skills at relationship tending, shall we

say, you're going to be following up with them in a in a

non salesy, elegant way to say, hey, hey, not bugging you. Just

hear when you're ready.

Yeah, yeah. It's good to say that it's good

because I have the good, better best i It's always good for it

can always be overhauled. It can always be tweaked. But I think

I'm just like everybody else. I think I'm leaving money on the

table. I think I need to, you know, there's only so much time

in the day. And it's funny I say that I just, I'm going into a

weekend this weekend, where we're looking after my

granddaughter, who's five, and my daughter told me last night

that she went she woke up at 230 in the morning last night, never

went back to bed. And I'm like, seriously, this child doesn't

sleep, yeah, so I'm thinking about time in the day. It's time

in the night as well, right? Anyway, no, this is all good.

This is all good.

So Well, let me, let me make one other suggestion, if

I can, is that this is what you what you're developing here is

something that you're agnostic on. Where people come out is

that you don't care the way you're going to price. It is you

don't care whether they pick good, better or best. It's just

like when you pull into Starbucks, they could care less

what what particular drink you get. They could care less even

though they've got preferences off what they make the most

money on, right? So that's where your head needs to be, because

if you're that kind of professional of value, which you

are, people are going to come back to you. So they're going to

come back, because, hey, this is so good, and I've gotten results

out of this. I need more. I need more than what, what I signed up

for, right?

No, I love it. That's that's so true. It's

like, and at the same time, if they just, for example, chose

the good option, and then you spent that time with them, they

built the trust. You've built the trust with them that will

will also open that door to doing some more work when the

time is right. Yeah, they trust you for sure. Okay, this is an

interesting piece. I thought selling to your own wallet. I

liked that. Can you speak to that? Do you want me to read

anything here? No. I mean,

yeah, I think a lot of us that have done this kind of

know what we're talking about, right? That what we're doing is

we've, we've got, we're pre judging whether the client is

going to think this is, quote, unquote fair or not fair. I hate

that word. In this context, we we're deciding for the client

whether they can afford it or not, yes, yes, or whether

they've got the budget for it or not, and a whole big proportion

of small businesses don't even keep a budget. So please don't

tell me it's not in your budget. You don't even have a budget,

right?

If you feel there's enough value, you'll

find the money, right?

It isn't amazing how that works. And actually,

budgets are priorities. Priorities change, yes,

priorities Yeah. They change based on value and value that's

perceived. So that's how you have to think about that budget

objection that people

give you. Yeah, some people, somebody once said

to me, it's not that I can't afford it. I choose to say, or I

say I, I choose to spend my money somewhere else, right now,

right? Yeah, yeah.

So, so, yeah. If people want it bad enough,

they'll find the money. Even if it's not in the business.

They'll find the money. Yeah, so true, isn't it? Yeah. So what

we've got to get to a point as service providers is that we're

not prejudging what people can afford, how they'll pay for it,

anything like that. The question is, the comparison here is the

the value that that I'm delivering as a service provider

relative to pricing that takes just a little piece of that

value and that suddenly this is an investment. It becomes an

investment. It becomes a a linked exchange that I'm

delivering value, and you're getting a big outcome for the

price that you're paying.

I was thinking about the trap of hourly

pricing, and when you are providing a service and you're

you've already brought the value conversation, and you know, you

understand where the clients coming from, and what the

transformation needs to be, and how do you get because it's a

it's a stickler for me sometimes trying to think of, okay, if I'm

not charging by the hour, how do I set my pricing? So can you

speak to that?

Yeah, yeah. So the where you need to be is, this is

where the questions come in. Is getting clients to verbalize

where they see value in transformation and how much that

value is. So let's go back to our example of the guy whose

business supposedly had no problems, right? And suddenly it

does have problems. And the biggest one is his business

partner, his wife, yes, so, you know. So when you when I hear

that, what the way I should have responded to him is to say, you

know, hey, what would it look like, and if you had a lot more

peaceful home life, what would that look like? And you see, you

start people down the road of thinking about what

transformation looks like and feels like, and how it changes

things for them. And. And you, what you get to is a point where

it's not just about how much more money the business made, or

are like, if your accountant how much taxes you saved, or

something like that. It's it's not just the the outcome of the

engagement, per se. It's what you're able to do because of the

transformation that is much bigger than the work itself. So

what does peace at home look like? It's priceless, right? So,

what does that do? What that does is it, it, it, it's a much

higher value. It's it's value that's priceless, of course, but

it increases willingness to pay.

Yes, yes, I see. So

here's a little cheeky example for you. You don't

think, when you factor in what the cost of college education

is, yes, condoms certainly don't seem more too expensive anymore,

right? So see, this is the point. It's like you've got to

get to a point where people are thinking about the long term

implications of the transformation and what that

enables them to do with their business, with their with their

lives. What does it mean that I can take the family to Rome,

Italy, where we've always wanted to go instead of, you know, the

usual vacation we've always done, right? What does that

mean? Yeah, right. So see the it's, it's these things you've

got to get to, and when you can get to that, it just changes

everything in terms of willingness to pay and the kind

of pricing you can achieve.

I think we've come full circle, because I

think that's that, again, goes back to the value conversation

first. So, right? So, so when you work with a client and help

them set their pricing strategies, like, how do you

pick numbers out of the air if they're not based on, you know,

an hourly piece? Is it just adding more things, or is it

just the perceived value? If that makes sense.

No, that does make sense. It's actually both. And

so it so it's certainly getting at where clients perceive value,

sharpening this the saw when it comes to asking the questions

that uncover where clients see perceived value. But frankly, a

lot of clients that I work with, what they what they don't see is

all the different ways they and different kinds of ways they

deliver their service that have value. I mean, for example, how

fast is this engagement going to work or unfold?

How fast will that, right? Okay, that's

another example in your book. Yes.

Okay, so speed, yeah. So Janice, are you and I working

over? You know, we're my hair is on fire to take, take care of my

LinkedIn issues. Yeah, and I need as much of Janice as I can

get for the next two weeks. Yeah.

I had a client recently that just did that. She

wanted to. She paid the top price, she said, But I have to

get it done by the end of March.

There you go. Yeah. So somebody that's in a hurry,

yeah, they've got a higher willingness to pay. Am I working

with Janice or my working with Janice's assistant? You know,

there's, there's another one. What's my access to Janice?

Okay, do I do I get email access. Only can I call you

baby, what's my access? See, they're all sorts of different

ways that the service is delivered.

Yeah, that's perfect. And I think you also

had an example in the book as well about, I think it was the

was she? It was either the the bookkeeper or it was the

organizer where you had a chart in there, and you showed the

percentages, and you, you, you, you're a finance guy, so you

looked at the money as well. But the the chart was good. And I

think that's, there's so many good things. I said there's so

many good things in this book. So am I right there? Yeah, that,

yeah, okay,

well, yeah. Well, and here's one example that I used

in in the book too, that that might be helpful. Is, you know,

I had a garage door problem. Oh, I love this story, yeah. And

long, long story short is, you know, the guy came out right

that afternoon, and, you know. But he could have charged me a

whole lot more than He charged me.

He still overcharged you. Well, he

his, his, well, his problem was, is that, is that he

didn't ask enough questions. Yes, understand why I was

motivated to get it done that day. Yeah, and so, and the

motivation was, my wife wanted this thing done

now, do it now, now. And so

I would have paid a lot more than He charged me.

Yeah? He could have paid me a rush charge, yes, yeah, yeah.

Or, you know, put that on my invoice. I would have paid it

gladly. Or he could have said, you know, if you want to save

some money, we can get out there next week. Yeah, and,

yeah, but you know, I It's funny because you

just made me think of something that I'm not going to go into in

this conversation, because it's just makes my blood boil. But

what I noticed about it was, when you're first dealing with

some people, and it's the first exposure. It's the first

transaction that you're going to have, and that's exactly what it

turns out to be as a transaction. And then something

goes wrong, and now you try to get it fixed. It's murder,

trying to get it fixed. Murder. Nobody cares. Nobody owns it,

and nobody will call you back. And it goes on and on. And

anyway, that's what I'm dealing with. So it's very annoying, and

you can't do business that way, you know? But yeah,

well, people do and they don't forget that. What

they forget is like, who's going to refer you if you do business

that way? Yeah, you expecting clients to refer you. Who's

going to write your Google reviews that you're covet, that

you're trying to build up? Yeah, who's going to do that? I mean,

there's, there's all sorts of ways this comes back to you.

Yes, exactly, yeah. And so why? Why do business that way?

I love this conversation. I think we I'm

going to have to have you back, because we could go on forever,

but I'm going to have to wrap it up, and I would like to ask you

a couple of quick fire questions at the end. One, do you I

noticed you quoted a lot of books that I recognized in your

book, some of the good ones from way back and still classics. Do

you read today? Do you read business books? Do you read

novels? Do you read in book form? Do you read audibly?

Listen? Do you watch? What do you do?

I typically read is what I do, but, but I also I

like Audible for on the go, it depends on the book.

Okay, okay. Do you listen to podcasts? Oh, yes,

absolutely. What's your favorite one?

What relationship rules?

Gotta get it right though. It's relationships

rule. Yeah, there you go. There you go.

Though, yeah, yes. I love, I love podcast and I love

listening to, seriously, I do listen to the to the I get

hooked on podcast host and what, just like any other podcast

listener. And so I've listened to a number of years. I love

them. And so, you know, I That's what gets me a lot of the

podcast I listen to, I end up talking to fans, right?

Yeah, that's another piece, actually, that I

loved in the end of your book about podcasting as a marketing

tool, because it is. It's amazing what the where it takes

you and the people that you meet. So I love that, and I

think that's how we met, in a sense, because we both had a

podcast, and it was an opportunity for us to talk. So

thank you, John, thank you for being here. Last question, best

piece of business advice you would share with my audience,

which is the same as your audience, really, business

owners, entrepreneurs, solo printers, service providers,

just understand that clients see more value in you

and what you do for them than you see yourself. And if you

understand that and make that a part of how you communicate, how

you deliver your service, how you position your service, your

business development, it will change everything. It'll change

your pricing. It'll change how you market, how much you have to

market. It will change everything in your business. So

to me, that's a powerful idea.

It's it certainly is. Thank you so much. Thank you

for being here today, and I know that it's about showing up with

intention, clarity and service, and in a world where Trust is

everything, your your insights offer a blueprint for building

client relationships rooted in value and respect. If we want to

learn more about your work, John, where can they? Find you.

I will put it in the show notes, of course.

Well, thank you. And first of all, thanks again for

for having me. It's just been such a delight my pleasure.

Yeah, I really have enjoyed our conversation. And thank you

again for your great work, so you can reach me on my website

is one place to connect. John ray.co, J, O, H, N, R, A, y.co,

connect with me on LinkedIn. I'm John Ray one on LinkedIn. I

write a lot about these issues on LinkedIn and post there. And

then my podcast, as you mentioned, is called the price

and value journey, and you can find that that podcast wherever

you access your

podcast, so perfect, and your book The

generosity mindset, the

generosity mindset.com to learn more about my book,

perfect.

Thank you so much, John, again, it's been a

pleasure talking to you and thank you to my audience, please

remember to stay connected and be remembered. Thanks for

joining us. If today's show inspired you to make a new

connection, why not start with me? Head over to LinkedIn and

connect with me. Be sure to let me know you are a podcast

listener, because I select one listener each month who connects

with me on LinkedIn for a complimentary profile audit. And

you know, I love to meet new people, so I hope you take me up

on it. Don't forget to stay connected and be remembered.

You.