In this episode, Within People Partner Bev Attfield sits down with Kate Bravery, Senior Partner and Global Leader of Talent Advisory at Mercer, for a grounded conversation about what leaders are really navigating right now as work continues to evolve.

Drawing on insights from Mercer’s 2026 Global Talent Trends Report, Bev and Kate explore the emotional realities shaping organizations today — from AI anxiety and rapid technological change to shifting expectations around leadership, culture, and human connection at work.

Together, they unpack what’s underneath many of today’s workplace challenges, why leaders need to pay attention to how change feels — not just how it functions — and how organizations can move forward with intention, curiosity, and care.

This conversation is for leaders who are asking:

1. How do we support people through uncertainty and change?
2. What does meaningful leadership look like in an AI-influenced world?
3. And how do we stay human while work continues to evolve?

If this episode resonates with what you’re seeing inside your organization, we’d love to hear from you. Reach out to continue the conversation — we’re always curious about what leaders are navigating right now.

All right.

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Welcome everybody.

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Thank you for being here today.

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You might notice that there

is a dress code theme here.

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It's Team Green on this

side of the, the screen.

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Hopefully you've, uh, you got the

memo, but if not, we welcome all

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colors into this conversation today.

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So thank you for being here.

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I'm Bev Atfield.

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I partner within people.

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We are a global culture.

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Leadership strategy firm helping people

and organizations grow with purpose.

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And our approach demands that we

stay on the leading edge of what's

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changing in the world of work.

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And let's be honest, there's no shortage

of change in this realm now or ever.

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I think, you know, from pandemic holdovers

to the age old question of how do we

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engage employees to the new frontier of

ai, leaders around the world are tackling

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some prickly problems, and that's why

today's conversation is so important.

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To understand how to solve these

existing and emerging problems in our

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workplaces, and most importantly, for

our people to thrive, we must look

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to the evidence that we have at hand.

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And the Mercer Global Talent Trends

Report is one of the most reliable

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sources for major trends shaping the

future of work and talent management.

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It's now in its 11th year and the report

examines large scale data from over

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12,000 executives, HR leaders, employees,

and other stakeholders worldwide.

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And the latest report was released

this week at the World Economic

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Forum Annual Meeting in Dabo, and

I'm delighted to have the opportunity

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today to chat with Kate Bravery,

who is the senior partner and global

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leader of talented advisory at Mercer.

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Hot off the press.

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Key insights from the 2026 report.

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Kate has led the GTT since its

inception over a decade ago and

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has expanded authorship of the 2026

report with key leaders at Mercer

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to bring a much wider perspective.

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So I will say that today is

going to be a conversation.

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We have no slides or charts.

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We are going to spend 40 minutes.

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A few key insights from a very, very

dense and insightful report, so we're

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not gonna cover it line by line today

because we would need hours for that.

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And then we'll have 10 minutes of q&a.

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So please pop your questions into the

chat and we'll take as many as we can.

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At the end.

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Welcome, Kate.

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That was a big preamble before I got to

you, but thank you so much for being here.

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Thank you for wearing green and uh,

thanks for finding time in your busy

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schedule this week to share your insights.

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So how are you doing?

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Kate Bravery: I'm good.

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I can't believe that five minutes

ago we all turned up wearing green.

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I think because the topic of today is

about, uh, human-centric transformation,

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it's a very appropriate color.

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Bev Attfield: Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Kate Bravery: But that was wonderful to

be here and just to say that, uh, yes.

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A preview of the report was launch

launched at Davos yesterday.

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Some of the kind of headline

statistics and the actual report,

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um, which you've seen a preview of,

will actually be out, uh, in, in just

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a couple of weeks, early February.

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You can find it on the Mercer website,

but we're gonna be sharing, um, yeah, some

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of the headlines today and having some of

the chat about some of the opportunities

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and risks we see in the report.

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Bev Attfield: Brilliant.

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And, and thank you for giving us this,

uh, sneak preview behind the scenes

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as, uh, you've been crunching the data.

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'cause there's a lot of it and

there's some really juicy stuff to

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cover in, um, you know, the insights

that we're gonna share today.

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So let's, let's get right at it because,

um, we're gonna promise to be on time

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for our call here today as well for

all of our folks who are dialing in.

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Okay.

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So let's, let's kick things off.

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We'll stay at a little bit of a, sort

of a higher context to start with.

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I'd like to share this quote from the

first paragraph of the report that really

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stopped me in my tracks, and to quote, it

says To remain competitive organizations

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need every team performing at its peak.

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Exponential performance isn't

just essential, it's existential.

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What does this statement tell

us about the tone of what you're

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seeing in the report this year?

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Kate Bravery: There's some pretty

strong messages in this year's report.

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Um, I think the, the volatility

and the velocity of change

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that we saw last year is gonna

absolutely continue into this year.

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And probably the big message

we're hearing, particularly

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from executives in the report is

competition is gonna get harder.

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Everybody's being asked

to do more with less.

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We've got digital competitors, we've got.

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Geopolitical challenges that keep hitting

us fast and furiously, and therefore,

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if we aren't able to unlock the full

potential of human machine teaming,

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we're gonna lag behind our competitors.

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And that's what we meant by existential.

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There is definitely an overlay in this

year's report that we are in a business

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first performance driven environment.

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You know, there's those years

where we are much more employee

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centric and we're employer centric.

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This year it's very clear that if where

the executives are heading doesn't

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flow through to the workforce, if

the workforce can't pivot at pace,

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if the world outside is moving faster

than the world inside, we might be

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so far behind that we can't catch up.

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And so I think there's that big

acknowledgement that not just AI is

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changing everything, but if we can't.

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Achieve productivity uptick

that we talked about last year

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and we haven't achieved as yet.

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It's gonna be an

existential crisis for us.

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And that for me isn't just about which

AI we bring into our organizations,

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how we enable AI adoption.

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Um, it's also about how does our.

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Talent and reward processes, incentivize

new ways of working, how do we get

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that alignment because businesses

are pivoting and pivoting again.

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So that's really why I think exponential

performance really is, is the word

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of the moment for us, and unlocking

that through intentional design.

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Yeah.

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Bev Attfield: I'm seeing

some real tensions in there.

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Right.

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And I think as we're gonna get

into this conversation, we're gonna

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tap into some of those tensions

and, and talk about, you know.

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It's not ai just for the sake of ai

and what is the impact of AI and, you

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know, how does, how do people roles and,

and human resources respond to this?

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And, you know, what do leaders

need to do in this moment, right?

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So it's, it's quite a complex package of

things that businesses and decision makers

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and business have to address right now.

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Um, I guess what I'm, I'm curious

about this tone feels, feels quite.

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It's sort of like we've gotta act

now and there's some urgency to it.

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What's the biggest change you've seen

since the last report in, in that

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sort of tone and sense of urgency?

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Kate Bravery: Yeah.

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The report is a culmination, about

12,000 voices around the world, and it's

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made up of four different populations.

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We've got the investor

voice, executive, VE voice.

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HR and employees, so maybe I

just take them individually.

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The investors and executives are saying,

we've got to deliver return on ai.

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You know, we've invested billions

globally and very few of those

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pilots projects use cases ended

on delivering a commercial return.

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We've gotta do things differently.

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Investors are saying we will invest in

those organizations that are delivering

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commercial return on AI projects.

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Executives are saying We've gotta just

make greater progress than we have.

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The challenge is when I look at the

HR data, so for both of them, their

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top sort of talent initiative that

they believe or believe will deliver

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an ROI is redesigning work to take

advantage of the opportunities of ai.

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So that's what.

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They're driving and they're

driving very strong singular voice.

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We've gotta make progress here.

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On the HR side, their top talent

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to better retain and attract our talent.

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And actually redesigning work

is a number fifth priority.

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There's an immediate tension there between

what executives want to see and where

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HR is spending their time and money.

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But if you tell me what was different

from like two years ago, which is when

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we did the last big report, it's gotta

be what we're hearing from employees.

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And as you said, I've been

doing this for 11 years.

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We saw this year the lowest

amount of people feeling that

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they're thriving in their jobs.

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And we derived, we defined

thriving as thriving in their

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health, wealth, and career.

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Only 44% of the global employee

population surveyed said the thriving.

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It was 66% two years ago.

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Now I do a lot of research.

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That's a staggering decline, and I

also see it reflected on how many

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of our workers today are distracted,

depleted, and are desperate to leave.

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The challenge is many of them say,

I would like to leave, but the labor

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market's not just for me to leave.

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So I'm kind of hanging on in there.

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If you combine those two, we need to

drive the most aggressive transformation

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agenda we have ever driven.

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We're gonna do things in ways that

our parents and our grandparents

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could never even imagine.

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It's gonna be such a big change,

and yet we've got a workforce that's

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saying, I'm entering 2026, already burnt

out, exhausted, disengaged, depleted.

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That's gonna be a pretty

tough, pretty tough journey.

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And then you haven't got HR and

executives rowing in the same direction.

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So there are some really big callouts,

I think, demanding greater collaboration

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conversations this year because pushing a

transformation agenda without focusing on

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the employee experience is not gonna work.

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But if we've got limited teams capacity

and resources, spreading ourselves too

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thinly is gonna be a recipe for disaster.

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Bev Attfield: Yeah.

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And I, I think that as we're gonna dip our

toes into sort of our broad topics of, of

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AI and HR and leaders today, um, you know,

I think you've got some call to action for

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us as, as leaders in our businesses around

what we can start to think about, right?

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Transformation.

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Hard.

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If we are trying to transform with

people who are feeling burnt out and

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apathetic about their work and how they

feel at work, um, you know that that's

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a tremendous rock to push uphill, right?

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So I think we really need to take

heat when we are thinking about

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transformation around AI and what

that could mean for us and how

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that, what that could unlock for us.

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It could also disincentivize

people who are already feeling

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like they are struggling to

find joy in their work, right?

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So why don't we dig into, let's, let's

step into our, our, our three topics here.

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I, I mean, we could, obviously there's

a lot that we can unpack about those

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four parts of your cohort, but I

think there'll be some learnings that

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will come out through the, the three

trends that we're gonna dig into.

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So let's start with what.

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Maybe is on top of everyone's

minds at the moment is AI and

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the changing work landscape.

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I don't think anyone here in the

room can say that their life is not

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affected by AI today, or that you can

go a day without seeing some sort of

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news headline around AI and what it's

gonna do to us, either good or bad.

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Right?

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Think what

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and on in the beginning.

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The promise of ai.

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Right.

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It seemed quite optimistic, the last

report that came out around what

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opportunity there is for us in the

future of work with the arrival of ai.

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And I'm curious how that is delivered

over the past year because when I

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read the reporting, definitely to

me the sentiment has changed to

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be much more of a cautionary tale

around how we move forward from here.

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So what are your thoughts on what's

changed over the past two years?

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Kate Bravery: Look, I think there's

bright spots and I think there's concerns.

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Look, if I factually compare

the results two years ago to now

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worries that AI is gonna take

my job, have definitely gone up.

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So I think two years ago about.

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14% of people are so said, I'm

worried that AI will take my job.

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That's shot up to 40%.

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And I think it's down

to what you just said.

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There have been so many headlines

saying the reason for our restructure

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is because we're bringing in ai.

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I don't believe that's

always been strictly true.

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If we continue to keep blaming AI

for downsizing our workforce, I.

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I think many people a couple of years

ago, I mean, we didn't really know

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what we're talking about two years ago.

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I think many people were just, you

know, yeah, well maybe it's be a

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thing and, and maybe I can ignore it.

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Maybe it'll be like other, you know,

technology things that come in and

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we'll get close to it and we'll

understand it and then it'll be fine.

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But the reality is that actually

the closer people have gotta ai,

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the more their anxiety has gone.

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Paradox.

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Technology that's come into our workplace.

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So for example, you know, HR teams, when

Workday and Systems came in, they were

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like, oh my gosh, it's gonna take my job.

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And then when you get to know it,

you're like, actually it's not.

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But the nature of my work changes.

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What's actually happened is that when

people have got closer to ai and we track

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it in a number of different countries,

and it tracks almost the same, the

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more exposure people have, the more

nervous they're, because they're seeing

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actually this can do large chunks of

my job, or at least will in the future.

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And that's quite interesting because

what our research also shows is that

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it's often the people at the more

senior levels that have more exposure.

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So they've got greater fear.

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They're cutting deeper into their

workforce in this is global talent trends.

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They're predicting more headcount,

cuts, restructuring, redeployment

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of talent in the next two years.

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But the people lowest to the

organization that I think probably will

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be impacted more, aren't necessarily

equipped with that information.

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And then, you know, we sort

of combine that with the fact

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that when we asked employees.

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When was the last time your manager

had a conversation with you about how

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your work might change because of ai?

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Three Outta four said, I haven't had

a conversation on that in the last

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year, so I think we've got these

headlines that are driving fear into

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our people about, oh my God, will

my skills be relevant in six months?

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Well, I have a job in a year, and then

we haven't done the piece internally.

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Have honest conversations about

which skills are going up in value.

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How do you make sure that you

get the right type of experiences

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to future proof your career?

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And, and so I, I do

think that's a challenge.

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And when we, you know, that fear piece,

only 19% of HR said when we're rolling

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out new piece of technology like

ai question was specifically on ai.

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Only 19% think.

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Max that we've tried to roll out

AI on top of existing processes.

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We've measured kind of tech adoption, but

we haven't really looked at it through the

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of human adoption, and we haven't reduced

fears so that people have the capacity

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to embrace it and are excited about it.

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You know, we haven't championed

what it's gonna do for them.

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I said there's bright spots though.

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One thing I did notice, so two years

ago, most people, when we asked.

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Will AI help you to do your job quicker,

more effectively, better quality?

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Most people's answer was like, baby,

this year, pretty much everyone

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has said either AI has already

improved the way I do my job.

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Or they have said, I can see how AI will

enable me to do my job faster, better.

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There's still a whole of people

using it though that don't wanna

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it, which I think is interesting.

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The climate we have, the climate isn't

as open and transparent and those job

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fields fears are very real in the climate.

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Bev Attfield: Yeah, I think it's

interesting what you're saying there

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about the businesses are prioritizing

how we introduce and implement AI to help

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us solve all sorts of business problems

and bring efficiencies, et cetera.

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I think that there's a real area of

attention that's needed around the

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psychological impact that this is gonna

have on people at work, and not just from

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a fear and anxiety point of view about

how your job is changing, but how do you

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start to work with an workforce, right?

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How do we start to be in a place

where we're actually engaging

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with a different type of being in.

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Investors and executives around

the profit driven side of this

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and the ROI that's needed.

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I think we're at risk of forgetting

to pay attention to the human side of

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this and the experience of this change,

which is a critical piece of, of what

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we need to solve right now as leaders.

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I feel.

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Kate Bravery: Absolutely.

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If we want to drive up greater performance

or higher productivity, if we take a

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short term lens on adding these new

tools that potentially could help us

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do our work faster and smarter, that's

gonna only have a short term life.

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Because if we want to have more

sustainable uptick in productivity,

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you know, we've really got to think

quite intentionally about how will

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the work look different in the future.

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We take advantage of, um, ai, who

does the work, what level of the

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organization, whether we can use

contingent workers or internal

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workers, what type of AI can change

what you require of the human skills?

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Doing that intentional work design can can

make a huge difference and I almost wish.

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Disrupt jobs and start talking about how

AI allows us to design work differently.

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Unfortunately, only about 30% of HR

is actively leading the charge on

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redesigning work, and yet we know

that those cohort of organizations

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that have invested in work redesign.

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Productivity gains.

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But to your point around anxiety, if

you do that with people, it's quite an

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exciting and empowering opportunity.

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How do you make this job more fulfilling?

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How do you make this job less exhausting?

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How do you create capacity for

you to learn some core new skills?

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Um, that's a challenge actually.

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Many employees are thirst

and they wanna have agency.

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They don't to be intentional.

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Delivering those returns.

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We need to do the hard

work on work redesign.

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When we redesign jobs, such as the job of

a nurse, so we stripped it back to what

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really requires nursing qualifications.

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How can we have more junior nurses

stepping up and create a role that takes

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advantage of some of these new tools?

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We can unlock up to 60 to 80%

of capacity now that drives

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that productivity equation.

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And similarly, some of the talent

processes, performance management,

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succession planning, even assessment or

engagement, they're once a year laborious.

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They take a lot of time and many people

say they just don't have teeth in

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sort of driving performance outcomes.

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AI can also help a lot with that,

which I think means that we can

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be much more targeted in as a

result of how work's changing.

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What are the new performance goals?

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Performance squared goals?

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We can spend more time on the human

conversation because AI has helped

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prepared our briefing document

nudged us when we need to have a

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conversation with someone who's

feeling a bit depleted or exhausted.

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Having rewards that better fit what's

really gonna motivate our people.

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That to me is really exciting, but

I think we need to embrace it with

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a bit more gusto than we are today.

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Bev Attfield: So what

do, what are we to do?

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Like what would you say is the

most important action folks in

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the room today and others around

the world in workplaces today?

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Um, like what should we do to

use the data in our day-to-day?

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Like what would you say is the most

important thing to do right now?

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Kate Bravery: Look, we're right

at the beginning of the year,

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so I think making sure that.

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We are spending our time in areas that

are value adding is absolutely critical.

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If you are sitting in an a leadership

chair or an HR chair, I would

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make sure that you've, you really

understand what's our reputation?

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Why are people staying, why are they

leaving, and what do they say about us?

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And you can do that now with ai, you know,

in a matter of hours you can say, Hey, if

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you compare the experience of working here

compared to the two or three competitors.

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Are people normally leave for,

what's the reason why they leave?

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That information is

out in the wider world.

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We can scrape it, we can analyze it, we

can give that, and that can interrogate

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is the talent initiatives we're gonna

spend our time and money on this year.

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The right ones.

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If you're a leader, you can start to

have that very honest conversation about,

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you know, where is the business heading?

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How are we bringing AI into our teams?

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And what's your role in helping

to redesign how work gets done?

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What are things that deplete productivity

today where we've got too many

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meetings, too many in the meetings,

we have confusing lines of authority.

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Decision making takes,

takes too much time.

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Um, I think there's some very practical

things we can be doing at the beginning

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to make sure that everyone says to

me, oh, you gotta do more with less.

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I think we need to do less with less.

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Um, and so, you know, using AI processes

to say, are we spending our time and

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energy on the big initiatives that

are gonna move the needle is critical?

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And then helping people to go have a

look at your goals and say, if you were

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challenged to take a third of these

goals away, which ones could you, um,

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so that you can double down on the areas

that are gonna have the most impact.

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Because if we're in a business first

climate, and if performance matters

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more than it's ever mattered before.

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You wanna make your direct reports

are spending time in the areas

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that are most value adding.

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And back to our original point about

unlocking performance with increased

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AI and human machine teaming, create

that climate of experimentation so

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that people feel inclined to use these

tools to talk about these tools, to

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share the learning, because that's not

happening at scale in many organizations.

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Bev Attfield: Mm.

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So I wanna bridge us into, I think

that steps us nicely into the next

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trend, which is around reinventing hr.

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And I wanted to just read a quote from

the report, which I think is a, is a

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strong piece of advice for us as we

think about some of the things that

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you've just talked about around how do

we transform our businesses to bring

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that efficiency and to help ourselves be

more productive and increase performance.

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But also how do we emphasize the human

experience in that transformation.

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The quote is, for an AI powered

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So in the machine age, organizational

systems and work itself must be

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redesigned to deliver both business

impact and amplify human potential.

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And this must be the year organizations

move from incremental experimentation

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to intentional AI integration.

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And my favorite part of this

piece of advice, they must

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take their people with them.

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So that being said, let's step into what

is that going to look and feel for us as

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leaders and folks who might be concerned

with the HR function in a business

397

around what's gonna need to change.

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I mean, you said that almost a

third of hr, um, are involved

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in transformation strategies.

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How are we going to help the

other 66% get on the bus, right.

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To help us really bring about this change?

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So, you know, we've.

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We see a call to reinvent hr, right?

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And in the report there is

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reinvention is non-negotiable.

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So I'd love to know the data is driving

you to make such a strong recommendation.

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Kate Bravery: Yeah, and one of the

things I really liked about last year

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has been the different experiments

that have happened within hr.

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You know, we've spent the last decade

talking about needs to move away from.

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Being a service deliverer or

operational partner to one that

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is truly strategic advisor.

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I think we achieved that

transition in COVID where you had

413

executives and HR working hand

in hand, global talent trends.

414

Their top priorities were identical,

um, and I think we made a lot of

415

big strides as a result of that.

416

As we started off the conversation

today, HR and executives are not on

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the same page at the top priority.

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So we need to get alignment there, but

also when we start to look at how AI

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is enabling a very different experience

for our people at work, the boundaries

420

between what was reward mobility,

talent learning are actually blurring.

421

And you're not gonna get that

productivity gain if we've all

422

got separate goals and priorities.

423

Lemme give you an example.

424

I'm working with a client at the moment

and they're using agents to do needs

425

analysis across the organization.

426

So, um, it's a sales organization

and they're doing needs analysis,

427

they've got youth products coming out.

428

What are some of the kind of

training needs that we need to close?

429

Then they've got that needs analysis

and they're speaking to, I think 300

430

people across the organization in a

matter of days that's coming back.

431

And then they've got AI that is

creating customized content for the

432

three or four different personas

within their sales organization.

433

So obviously frontline sales,

technical sales, they have

434

different needs and they're creating

podcasts, content, different ways

435

to kind of get that learning.

436

And then what they're doing is

they're shipping that learning out.

437

A human is reviewing it, but then it's

being shipped out to these other personas

438

and then their realtime monitoring.

439

What's been the impact in sales in

the product that that training has

440

And if that impact is not being

shown for certain persona group,

441

they are changing, um, that training.

442

You think about the time that, that

would normally take, normally it

443

would be a couple of hours, you know,

a couple of weeks to just do the

444

training analysis and then it'd be

another to do the creation of that.

445

You wouldn't be linking that l and d

initiative with performance outcomes,

446

feeding it into your performance reviews

and modifying your training on the fly.

447

That's staggering.

448

I've got another client that has brought

in, um, a conversational AI tool.

449

That conversational AI tool is helping to

set goals at the beginning of the year.

450

So let's set smart goals based on

your business priorities and coming

451

out of your assessment results.

452

Automated individual development plan.

453

So they're making it relevant for

you and aligning it to your business.

454

Fantastic.

455

Once that AI coach already knows your

strengths and weaknesses, the AI coach

456

also knows what goals you're driving at.

457

Why wouldn't you then use that AI coach

to help you drive up performance, listen

458

in on a call and give you feedback

to see if you're meeting your goals?

459

So suddenly now you've got a bit

of information about goal setting.

460

You've got some performance management.

461

And then I've got a third client

who is using conversational

462

AI for their what used to be a

once a year engagement survey.

463

What they're doing is that for every

moment that matters, just got onboarded,

464

just got expanded control taken on a

broader team, they've got a, a chatbot

465

in the flow of work that's having a quick

conversation that's relevant for them.

466

That's feeding back kind of engagement

type data, direct to the manager.

467

They're still scraping that data and

doing an annual engagement survey

468

at the end of the end of the year.

469

That again, is blurring the

boundaries between kind of future

470

performance management and then

the once a year engagement process.

471

So if we stick in all our silos, we're

all gonna be innovating in AI in ways

472

that are crossing over, and we're missing

that opportunity to step back and be a bit

473

more aligned as a, my colleague, um, Jason

Abrook talks a lot about, we need less

474

North South thinking and more East West.

475

And as you know, one of the big

experiments that a number of clients

476

embarked on last year was saying, if,

when we think about our workforce,

477

it isn't just about how many humans

we have and kind of ft you know,

478

the, the full days that they work.

479

Maybe with AI it's more about the,

how they achieve that work, because

480

it'll be a combination of humans and

machines, but the technology side

481

of it sits in our IT department.

482

So maybe we need to be thinking about

digital talent and human talent together.

483

And that's a whole nother way

of thinking about, you mentioned

484

there, bringing in the agentic

workforce and the human workforce.

485

But if we're thinking about optimizing

costs and unlocking performance, having

486

them in separate areas or not working

closely together is gonna hold us back.

487

So I do think that it needs radical

transformation, transformation.

488

Eyes of the different personas we

have in our workforce, how does

489

experience need to look like for them,

for them to be inspired, for them

490

to embrace ai, for them to innovate.

491

That's probably quite a

lot there, but, uh, yeah,

492

Bev Attfield: no, no.

493

But

494

Kate Bravery: yes, the data there.

495

Bev Attfield: I think what's coming

up for me around that is that this one

496

sort of more territorial or siloed way

of thinking about business function.

497

Has to change and Char has an opportunity

to be the leader in that, right?

498

To really rethink about the function

of HR and being in the strategic

499

driver's seat alongside the other

key decision makers, rather than

500

just this thing on the side here.

501

That is, you know, some execs would

prefer just not to have to worry about

502

the people side of things, right?

503

We this like a real, I think

it's a real opportunity for.

504

Be in the driver's seat because there

you can prove the effectiveness and

505

the efficiency that will come from

changing processes where they should be

506

changed, but then harnessing the human

effort and the, the human contribution

507

that we're not seeing yet in ai.

508

Like we're, we're not there yet.

509

We're humans are gonna be

replaced in all functions.

510

Right?

511

So what's the opportunity now for us

to actually crystallize what that is?

512

Because.

513

I find it's a bit nebulous when I

listen to reports about, oh, well

514

the AI is gonna do this stuff over

here, and the humans are gonna do the

515

things that the humans are good at.

516

Okay, great.

517

Well what is that and how do we

make a business case for that?

518

Right?

519

Kate Bravery: And humans are really the

force multiplier here, not the technology.

520

Adding more technology isn't moving the

needle, but if you get the right humans.

521

Right.

522

Inspired in the right way, then you're

gonna get that 10 x performance that

523

you're looking for, and that comes back

to us having great data, great data.

524

About what skills does

this individual have today?

525

What's their potential to take on

a bigger role or a different role?

526

And I think one of the concerns coming

outta the report is we don't always

527

have our fingertips on what are the

skills that are relevant for today?

528

What are the skills we need for tomorrow?

529

What's the skills gap?

530

And are we intentionally moving

people to take advantage of that?

531

So we need to understand our people

better as well as do the work redesign,

532

because unless we do both of them.

533

This is gonna work.

534

And I was really surprised in this

year's research how many employees

535

said, my manager doesn't know what

skills I have and they certainly

536

dunno what my potential is.

537

Um, you know, promotions here are made

on tenure and there very few lateral

538

moves or gig opportunities that's

gonna have to change otherwise, the way

539

in which we're developing up people.

540

It's not gonna move fast enough given the

way that technology is changing the world.

541

Bev Attfield: Yes.

542

And coming back also to the, the stat

that you shared around, you know, the, the

543

44% of folks feel like they're thriving.

544

Right?

545

We are.

546

You know, we, we really are.

547

We, we we're sliding backwards and I,

I was quite astonished to see that stat

548

because I would've expected coming out of

the pandemic era, I wouldn't have expected

549

us to have made as many gains as we did.

550

And we've essentially just

hopped four steps back.

551

To, to where I imagine we would've

been right around the pandemic era,

552

and that's a lot to overcome, like

to bring us back up to where we were.

553

But I think what's exciting for me is

that for those savvy folks who get the

554

strategic intent and the the shift to the

things that you were talking about, like

555

skills and how do we measure performance

and how do we think about leadership,

556

which we're gonna talk about in a minute.

557

I think that there is a, a fast track

to actually getting folks to reimagining

558

and becoming re-inspired with their

work and the place that they work at.

559

Kate Bravery: Absolutely.

560

Absolutely.

561

And I, I think it, everything is to

play for, I think a lot of the, not

562

feeling like the thriving is because

of the change fatigue, the cognitive

563

exhaustion, lack of clarity, and I think

when we have the right leaders in place.

564

It can make a huge difference, and I think

there's gonna be a big focus this year on

565

ensuring that we have the right leaders

to lead through this time because my gosh,

566

leadership looks completely different

to it did I'd say even 18 months.

567

Bev Attfield: Yeah.

568

Yeah, absolutely.

569

I mean, it, it's, it's one of our

priority areas that within people is,

570

you know, we really focus on a human

centered leadership description, right?

571

And we, we bias towards those, um,

you know, emotional intelligence

572

qualities of, of a leader.

573

And, you know, this is going to be

something that, that folks who are

574

wanting to step more forcefully into

the leadership space, if we're gonna

575

understand what are those qualities.

576

We need to bring to work the makeup or

the DNA of a leader has to shift, right?

577

And, um, I think that's coming out

loud and clear in, in the data too.

578

So why don't we step into the

changing leadership demands piece

579

of our, our conversation here today

where, when you and I were having a

580

chat a couple of weeks ago, we were

talking about how we were seeing.

581

Hints in the data that the blueprint

for leadership is changing, and now

582

that the report is in our hands,

that is more clear than ever.

583

I'm, I'm, I'm feeling So tell us about

like, whatcha seeing has shifted in,

584

in what leaders need to be today?

585

Kate Bravery: Yeah, absolutely.

586

You know, when I think about

the role of leaders today to be

587

successful, they've got to elegantly

traverse lots of boundaries.

588

We've been talking a lot

about digital boundaries.

589

You've got some people in person,

you've got some people working

590

digitally, hybrid working.

591

You've got temporal boundaries.

592

We've, you know, we've got borderless

working, we've got, you know,

593

asynchronous working and that's exciting.

594

But it also brings its own challenges.

595

Borderless working also means we need

to traverse cultural boundaries, and

596

we've also got contractual boundaries.

597

Now we've got kind of full-time workers,

part-time workers, and you brought

598

up a few times the agent workforce.

599

That's a lot of complexity in the role of

leaders, and if you're wanting everyone

600

to bring their very best, that takes

a different type of empathy combined

601

with some really good business acumen,

because as we talked about, if we're

602

gonna unlock performance, we need to

probably have more honest and maybe

603

tougher conversations than we had last

year around where to prioritize what

604

is or isn't value adding, et cetera.

605

In the research we asked

leaders a whole series of.

606

What skills are important for success

607

be important for success in 2030?

608

And what was fascinating was

executives and investors said,

609

we need business leaders that are

really good at identifying risk.

610

Mindset can see across boundaries

because you know, it's a more

611

globally volatile environment

than we've seen previous years.

612

We need good commercial understanding

and, and better strengths

613

around strategic awareness.

614

So they really do see that kind of

business acumen is really important.

615

When we spoke to employees.

616

They didn't have any of that IQ BQ stuff.

617

It was all the eq.

618

I needed a manager who

I feel listens to me.

619

I need a manager who has my back.

620

I need someone who can

empathize and who can inspire.

621

When we looked at why people

are thinking of leaving, lack of

622

inspirational leadership has gone

up the list like never before.

623

So maybe as we've flattened organizations

got broader scans of control, or we've

624

focused on the business priorities.

625

We've some of that

inspiration of our people.

626

And so I think that is absolutely

kind of critical to get right.

627

But what was really interesting is when

628

In 2030, everybody said, we're gonna need

leaders with greater digital leadership,

629

but they're not prioritizing it now.

630

And I thought that was just really

interesting as sort of we, we need to

631

make sure that those leaders are being

invested to lead and inspire people.

632

First approach to their work and to

reward and recognize that, but it's

633

not on the agenda for this year.

634

And I just thought that was fascinating.

635

But I do think, um, the other

thing that came out was we need

636

leaders who can manage paradoxes.

637

They need to be good at driving

strategy and execution in this climate.

638

We've gotta focus on

the task and the people.

639

So it feels very different to a couple of

years ago where all the language was more

640

about servant leadership and uh, empathy.

641

It's definitely empathy and economics

today, and I think being able to manage

642

that, those paradoxes is pretty tough

for some leaders, particularly leaders

643

who maybe didn't have great role

models during those pandemic years and

644

have found themselves in these, these

big complex people leadership roles.

645

Bev Attfield: And to

what extent do you think.

646

Because that, that feels to me like

quite a business first framing.

647

It doesn't feel like a people first

framing from a leadership perspective,

648

like to what extent do you think our

leaders, like Agent izing the function

649

of leadership from a people development,

people nurturing, like you, you mentioned

650

that three out of four people had not

had a conversation with their leader

651

about the impact of AI on their job.

652

Right.

653

So I just, I wonder.

654

I feel like we're in a bit of a

dangerous place here where leaders

655

are going to think about outsourcing

the very human touch aspect of

656

their role to an agent, and they're

going to just focus on the business

657

priorities that they have at hand.

658

Do you think that's a risk?

659

Like what are you seeing?

660

Kate Bravery: Oh, I

absolutely think it's a risk.

661

It's something we talk

a lot about here me.

662

It's staggering what a lot of these

AI tools can do on your behalf.

663

Whether it is inferring what skills you

have today, whether it is automating

664

insights around assessment and

engagement, whether it's preparing

665

your performance review notes, and

writing your performance review.

666

I mean, it's quite attractive.

667

I mean, could you step back and

say, but this is where I think

668

values of the firm really matter.

669

This is where I think the

research that shows that those

670

organizations that have higher trust.

671

Where individuals feel that their

manager knows their skills, has their

672

best interest in heart, has their

back, is actively championing their

673

careers, um, without, but I do think

we're at a time where we need to

674

redefine that leadership blueprint.

675

What, what is that role of leader?

676

And are we actually measuring that

success as opposed to those leaders

677

being individual contributors?

678

Which I think we've seen too much of.

679

And then with ai, the, the hope

is that these processes reduce the

680

load on some of the kind of process

and operational work so you can

681

have better quality conversations.

682

Bev Attfield: Mm.

683

Kate Bravery: But what I'm seeing is with

the organizations that we partner with

684

to say, what leadership values do you

want embedded in your AI coaching tool?

685

What is our performance management

or our world philosophy?

686

Because you have to get that right

in order to teach the ai, which

687

sometimes is a great discipline that

actually enables managers to have

688

better conversations because now they

actually know what they've gotta do.

689

But you can then also have that AI who's

listing into your calls, monitoring

690

your meetings, giving you feedback where

you're spending time, feed that back.

691

Are you spending enough time

with the people on your team?

692

Are you dedicating enough time to

inspirational leadership rather,

693

rather than operational leadership?

694

So I actually think it's

almost like a Fitbit.

695

You know, you get more data,

but it doesn't replace the

696

need for a, a gym coach.

697

And in fact, the more people

that wear Fitbits, the more the

698

demand for coaches has gone up.

699

And I think this is the same.

700

I actually think as people get

more information about their

701

skills, where can they go?

702

They're gonna need more from their

performance coach, their manager.

703

And I also think we'll be nudging

managers and preparing managers

704

better and giving them feedback

where maybe they don't hit the mark.

705

I mean, performance management has

come up a few times on this call.

706

Performance management

fails at the moment.

707

In most organizations.

708

Executives say it hasn't got teeth,

it doesn't pivot fast enough, it

709

doesn't drive the right behaviors.

710

We don't differentiate top

performers and bottom performers.

711

Managers go, oh my God, please

don't change it from a five point

712

scale to a three point scale

to a i, I'm exhausted with it.

713

And it's just a tick box exercise.

714

And employees say, when I leave

my performance discussion,

715

I never feel flatter.

716

Mm-hmm.

717

We all of that, but I've actually seen

that, um, AI is actually helping some

718

very average managers become great.

719

Highlighting their blind spots,

coaching them to be a little bit

720

more inspirational in what they say.

721

And so I think we're past that hump

where last year it was like, oh

722

God, I couldn't have to do that.

723

And AI do it all me to say

actually AI could not just take

724

away some of that process, but

it could make me a better leader.

725

And if I'm not a better leader, maybe

it'll nudge me to move into an individual

726

controversial role where I'll thrive more.

727

So I have the fear, but I'm

seeing that fear being mitigated.

728

Bev Attfield: Yeah.

729

Two things coming up.

730

First of all, you had me at

values, keep values at the center.

731

Like that is definitely the bedrock

of, of our work as well, right?

732

Um, it doesn't matter if you are

considering making a, a switch

733

to more, um, you know, digital

process in your business, but put

734

your values at the center of it.

735

Train your agent to do it through

the lens of your own values.

736

Your business as well as the leadership

ethos that you wanna see in the

737

business, because the results you'll

get will be so much better matched

738

to who you're your exponential

739

Kate Bravery: performance.

740

Bev Attfield: Exactly.

741

And that's a, a shortcut, right?

742

For folks to just like double

down on your values because.

743

You can 100% train a A an LLM to

understand who you are through

744

the language of your values.

745

And that's another area where I

think HR can really step in and

746

lead here, right, is to bring

values into focus more frequently

747

in decisions that are being made.

748

Right.

749

I think the second piece that really

stands out for me is around performance

750

management and, and yes, you know

what a gift for us, if AI can help us

751

transform performance management, we

would've won if it only did that for us.

752

Right.

753

But I think what I, what I was very

intrigued by in the, the report

754

was this shift from performance

management to performance enablement.

755

I feel like let's use AI for what

it can really do in a fantastic way,

756

in a very quick and fast way that

humans cannot, because we can't parse

757

the amount of data that an AI can.

758

But let's also think about

this as a more textured way.

759

Like it's not about management,

it's about enablement, like

760

unlocking potential for people.

761

With the help of ai, tell me

your, your, your thoughts on,

762

you know, how do we get there?

763

How do we get to this, this

more human-centric approach to

764

helping people perform and unlock

prosperity in our business for

765

themselves and the organization?

766

Kate Bravery: You've said so

many interesting things that

767

I wanna jump on all of them.

768

Um, the first thing I would say, um,

and this is a big theme of our report

769

two years ago, is, um, the fastest

thing that's gonna make your top

770

talent leave is a mismatch imbalance.

771

So if you don't know the values of

your critical talent and you aren't

772

actively working to deliver on them,

when it is a more buoyant labor

773

market, they're the ones that are

gonna be off first, and they're,

774

they're the ones that have options.

775

So I do think spending time on your

values and your culture is gonna pay

776

dividends with regard to moving from

performance management to enablement.

777

No one wants to be, you don't, I

don't wanna, so I think changing

778

that dialogue to how do enable.

779

In your job and have a fulfilling

career can make a huge difference.

780

Said performance management has

become a bit of a please when perform

781

management with expanding portfolio.

782

You know, where can you go from here?

783

Careers.

784

When performance management becomes part

of a succession conversation, a career

785

conversation, then I think it can be

inspiring back to we need to get rid

786

of these silos and push them together.

787

Because actually then you turn something

that's quite annoying and fearful into

788

something that is exciting and positive.

789

So I think, I think that

can make a difference.

790

And then the other thing, which I think

we need to keep in mind, and we see it in

791

the data, is there are some conversations.

792

Young people are more comfortable to have

with tech than they are with a human.

793

There are some really challenging

questions around what gets

794

recognized here and how does our

performance management system work

795

and what is the consequence of it.

796

They don't wanna tell their manager

that, or I want my manager's job.

797

What do I need to do to get there?

798

And we've talked a about AI tools.

799

They don't have to be expensive AI tools,

orent layer that you're bringing into

800

your organization, they can be asking and

they're asking this question of chatt.

801

Bev Attfield: Yeah.

802

Kate Bravery: And I think that's

not a bad thing because Yes.

803

And Emily, you are nodding there

ferociously as probably the

804

younger person on the call here.

805

Bev Attfield: Emily is our

producer in the background.

806

Just

807

Kate Bravery: fy, sorry, sorry.

808

She's also wearing agreement as well,

which is just when I got on here.

809

Bev Attfield: Yeah, I, I mean, well,

I mean, still so much more to, to

810

unpack there, but you know, I, I think

it's what I just keep coming back

811

to is that that number of the 44%

of folks feel like they're thriving.

812

And I feel like if we just change

performance management, we could get

813

a 10% gain on that number overnight.

814

Kate Bravery: Oh gosh,

I wish it was that easy.

815

Bev Attfield: Can chat GPT?

816

Just solve that for us overnight, please.

817

Kate Bravery: But I, I, I do think

there's a bit about people feeling

818

that the deal's not working, that

they're putting in too much and

819

they're not getting enough return.

820

And I do feel that if we got people

orientated into the areas that delivered

821

the biggest value for the business,

then maybe the rewards would be there.

822

Because rewards, rewards have got

a bit thin in the last few years,

823

differentiation's been challenged and our

money doesn't go as far as it used to.

824

So getting the performance equation

right, benefits will stakeholders.

825

Bev Attfield: Okay, we

are nearing the hour.

826

We've covered a lot of ground, but

what I would love to hear, Kate, is

827

all that we've heard today, in addition

to what sits in the rest of the data,

828

what do you believe is the loudest call

to action for us to hear right now?

829

Kate Bravery: Gosh, loudest.

830

Call to action.

831

Um, the report is fresh off, off

the, um, the thing, so I haven't,

832

I think there's quite a few, um,

calls to action in the report.

833

Some of the ones we've talked about today.

834

I do think we need to use performance

management to performance enablement.

835

I do think we need to move away

from thinking about tenure based

836

promotion to skills based and or skills

powered and potential powered moves.

837

I think that will make a huge

difference and I also think managers

838

need to be more comfortable having

both performance conversations.

839

AI conversations.

840

How are we thinking about bringing ai?

841

What's the role you can play

in redesigning work given ai?

842

What skills do you have today that

if your job did disappear because

843

of AI, could enable you to do two

other roles in the organization?

844

And if you dunno,

845

you know, I think there's ways

we can start to encourage.

846

To take more control of their career

and start thinking more about it.

847

Skills of the currency

of the work, not jobs.

848

How does my portfolio look and what do I

need to do to futureproof my career and

849

how does that fit with where the company's

going and what is gonna be valued?

850

I think though that sort of

honesty is really important.

851

And then if I was gonna say one

thing that closed out, it would be

852

back to all of this stuff is great.

853

Redesign the HR function.

854

We can equip our people

with more AI enabled tools.

855

But if you're not inspired by the

purpose and the values that the company

856

stand for, this is all just gonna abide

your time until you find another job.

857

So be very clear about what's

the purpose of our organization?

858

What does it deliver back to society?

859

What's your role in that, and

what do we stand for as a firm?

860

Get some of that stuff right?

861

Some of this content around rewards

processes, some of that will be forgiven

862

as we drive this transformation.

863

Bev Attfield: Mm.

864

That's powerful framing and.

865

Definitely singing from the same song

sheet as us as we are thinking about, you

866

know, from our perspective when we are

advising and guiding clients through this

867

time of transformation around putting

your purpose and your people first.

868

Right.

869

Thanks Kate.

870

I I do have one question, which is a

bit of a step down from what you were

871

just sharing in your summary there.

872

So, Laurie's asking, do you see

a world where adding more AI can

873

actually make work more human?

874

Kate Bravery: A hundred percent and

I'm already seeing it at the moment.

875

I'm seeing that the right AI used in the

right way is improving us to have more

876

relevant conversations with our people.

877

It's helping older workers with

their memory and understanding

878

about what's important to

people, and it's enabling us to.

879

Making sure that people get the

opportunities or the rewards

880

that really resonate with them.

881

I mean, staggering amount of

people said I would forgo a 10%

882

pay rise to get more AI training.

883

Brilliant.

884

I've got, I've got a challenge reward,

um, thing, lemme put that as part

885

of the total reward proposition.

886

Um, so I'm seeing lots of bright spots

where I think AI is actually allowing

887

us to be more human, more connected.

888

Make better choices and make fairer

choices because it's also giving

889

us feedback around, you know, when

we look at how you distributed your

890

rewards or who you put on your high

potential slate, you've got biases.

891

We've all got biases.

892

I'd rather AI told me that before my

boss did, or worse, my employees did.

893

Bev Attfield: I'm really glad that

we're ending on a positive note

894

because I, I, I think that, that the

tendency at the moment is to really

895

feel anxious and feel like this is,

you know, something hard and negative

896

for all of us, and that it feels like.

897

The end is ni Right.

898

But I, I love that you're bringing this,

you know, pragmatic, fresh perspective

899

to this that is helping us understand

how can we optimize this and how can

900

we use AI for what AI is great at, to

supplement what humans are great at.

901

Right.

902

And I, I would like to think that there

is a future where we can coexist and that

903

things can be better because of that.

904

Um, and I think we just have to keep.

905

Keep looking at the data and, uh,

keep being inspired by the human

906

interest and involvement in this

process of transformation because

907

after all, it is an existential need.

908

And if we are to survive and thrive,

uh, we need to play a part, right?

909

We need to be in the driver's seat

of, of the change that's coming.

910

So thank you Kate.

911

We are almost at the top of the

hour and I be promise to everyone

912

their thank you everyone for

being, and thanks to you Kate for.

913

Um, being here to share your

insights and your wisdom.

914

There is obviously a lot more to

talk about and I've seen, uh, you

915

know, multiple comments in the chat

about you coming back to do part

916

two, so maybe that's a possibility.

917

Once the report is out, we can come

and continue this conversation.

918

Kate Bravery: Love to.

919

Bev Attfield: But if folks

wanted to find you and connect

920

with you, how do they do that?

921

Kate Bravery: Yeah.

922

Um, reach out to me on

LinkedIn, take bravery.

923

Really easy to find.

924

And as I said, this report's gonna

go up, um, I think in a couple of

925

weeks, uh, onto the Mercer website.

926

Uh, you can get sneak peek with the,

what the report we released at Davos on

927

there, uh, we're, we had so much data

this year and so many big messages.

928

We're actually gonna have

four separate reports.

929

So I'm actually gonna do a deep dive into

the leadership equation and, you know,

930

what do we really need to see in our

leaders if we could continue attracting

931

and inspiring people in this new world.

932

So maybe when that one's

out, I'm happy to come back.

933

Bev Attfield: Well,

that will be fantastic.

934

I know that I would love to hear more

and and dig into that with a lot more

935

time to spend on that focused area.

936

But we will follow up with the recording

to everyone who has registered for

937

today with a link to pre-register for

the report coming out in February.

938

I highly advise, get a good cup of

coffee, sit down and have a read of it.

939

There is some really juicy stuff in there

and it has to be paid attention to right

940

now if we're gonna make this change work.

941

Thanks.

942

Thank you to our listeners

for tuning in today.

943

Really hope you found this time together

valuable and if you are a leader who is

944

wanting to be more curious, hope that

you feel more resourced coming out of

945

this today, thank you so much to Emily,

our producer, who always brings us

946

together and helps us to create this.

947

These brilliant episodes, which we

really hope will move the needle on the

948

experience that people have at work.

949

So please do tune in to our

podcast every month for more

950

episodes on what's happening in

the culture and leadership space.

951

What's on the minds of leaders committed

to change in our community and other

952

future of work content you crave.

953

Re imagining work from within is

available wherever you podcasts.

954

That's a wrap for today.

955

Thank you so much.

956

And we'll see you next time.